Brian McLaren Thinks Again! On Stuff…

brian mclarenIf Brian has any clue as to what real Christianity meant he would not even have written his article below (see heading below).  But because we know he battles with concepts such as SIN and REPENTANCE OF SIN we will let Brian think again, that his ‘new kind of Christianity’ is just the schnizzle.  We on the other hand pray the he grasps REPENTANCE OF SIN.

Uganda is proposing  “The Anti-Homosexuality Bill 2009” is making its way through Uganda’s parliament and will probably become law before Christmas. 

Quotes taken from The Urban Coaster

“This year, though, gays can look forward to life imprisonment or the death penalty if they are arrested for certain offences under the proposed law.”

“In 2007 the Church of Uganda consecrated Bishop John Guernsey in Virginia. The Reverend John Kalimi preaches his homophobic message at Saint Vincent’s Cathedral in Dallas-Fort Worth. Pentecostal, anti-gay ministers of mega-churches here, like TD Jakes of The Potter’s House and the Miracle Crusader Benny Hinn went to Uganda on fundraising and soul-getting missions and came back richer.

Protectors of American families like Scott Lively and Rick Warren, who think gay people need healing, threw their support behind Ugandan preacher Martin Ssempa until he started talking to the media about killing homosexuals. Rick Warren of Saddleback Valley Community Church has repudiated Martin Ssempa. Scott Lively of Defend the Family has gone quiet on the subject. “

From Brian McLarens’s website: 

Discernment websites …if you believe

I wonder if some of the “discernment websites” that enjoy featuring and critiquing the work of many of my friends and me would be willing to host some discussion on this bill currently proposed in the Ugandan parliament.

I’d be interested in reading whether participants in those blogs agree with the Ugandan bill, and if not, why not. (Details after the jump)…

Andrew Marin gives an excellent overview of the situation here. He says …
Let me make this clear:

 I don’t care how conservative your theological belief system is, killing people or imprisoning them for being gay or lesbian is wrong and should never, ever happen.

Notwithstanding, according to the bill, I, as a straight person, would also be imprisoned if I don’t turn in gays and lesbians to the Ugandan government.

….Please spread the word. No Christian (or person in general) should ever let this happen on our watch.

He explains how to take action here.

The initiator of this bill in Uganda, Martin Ssempa, used to have connections to Rick Warren and Saddleback Church, but they severed those ties when they learned about the Ugandan bill. Here is Rick’s statement:

Martin Ssempa does not represent me, my wife Kay, Saddleback Church, nor the Global PEACE Plan strategy. In 2007, we completely severed contact with Mr. Ssempa when we learned that his views and actions were in serious conflict with our own…”

Thank God for people like Andrew and the Warrens for making it clear where they stand. Of course I stand with them.

This bill shows where misguided zealotry can lead, friends – the kind of misguided zealotry right here in the US that I posted about recently, the kind that Paul wrote about when he said (2 Cor. 3:6),

God … has made us competent to be ministers of a new covenant, not of letter but of spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.

Paul, of course, new what he was talking about, because he had been this very kind of misguided zealot (1 Timothy 1:13) before he discovered a new vision of God in Christ. His belief system led him to hunt people down and seek to imprison and even kill them (for example, he participated – from a discrete distance – in the stoning of Stephen, Acts 7:58). In Christ Paul discovered a radically different image of God: one who doesn’t imprison, torture, and kill, but rather humbly descends to being imprisoned, tortured, and killed. Here’s how he described it (Phil. 2):

[Christ], though [or better translated, I think, because] he was in the form of God,
did not regard equality with God as something to be exploited,
but emptied himself,
taking the form of a slave,
being born in human likeness.
And being found in human form,
he humbled himself
and became obedient to the point of death –
even death on a cross.

You can see why I believe we need a new kind of Christianity. I hope there will be some robust discussion about this Ugandan death bill on the discernment websites and others too, and some constructive action as well.


Brian, if you have ever by any chance read the bible, (no not the maps at the back; by the way Uganda is not on there I checked), you will come across these things called the 10 commandments, one of them being, “Thou shalt not kill” and the other 9 are pretty mind blowing too.  It is plainly obvious to a genuine Christian that MURDER is wrong.  Why do people do such heinous things such a murder?  It’s cause of SIN.  How do you stop sinning?  You ask Jesus Christ the Son of God who died on the cross for you, you ask HIM to forgive you, that His blood washes away your sin, you believe in Him, you get on your knees and you repent of being a sinful human being, you become born again.  You come into a relationship with Jesus Christ where the Holy Spirit guides you and you make a concerted effort to CHANGE YOU WAYS, you/they want to stop sinning. A changed person (born again person) finds it very difficult to sin because of God’s (Holy Spirits) conviction in their life.  To sin before God cuts a genuine Christian deep through the heart because sin drives a wedge between our relationship with Him.  The more we confess the more we genuinely want to change  and the more wonderful we become in the face of Jesus Christ the begotten Son of God.

No one, no matter who they are, deserves to die, be murdered, tortured, caught up in violence because of the sin of homosexuality or ANYTHING else for that matter.  Just like no one deserves to hear a false version of the gospel taught like the one you teach that sends people to an eternal death.  On the day of judgement when God sends those to everlasting fire because they wanted to live in perpetual sin and go against HIS COMMANS, that’s their problem.  And you will be held accountable before God for all those you lied too and led astray with anti-Christ teaching.

If mankind were not disobedient to the Word of God that top article re: “The Anti-Homosexuality Bill 2009” would not exist, and your article calling out to “Discernment websites…” WITH underhanded motives to try come up with another solution to Christianity would not exist either.

But the world unfortunately is just one big ball of disobedience; because it’s people like you Brian that don’t want to obey God and rather choose to make up your own rules instead thinking you are smarter.  So you can take your ‘new kind of Christianity ideas’ and throw them away, chuck then in that bin of yours because there was nothing wrong with the first Word that God breathed into Scripture and there is nothing wrong with the last Word in scripture either.

You can’t go around and break stuff that was never broken to start with.

The sufficiency of scripture as the only TRUE guide to living life, no dot or tittle to be added or taken away.  Your NEW biblical worldview is flawed and man made foolishness and will lead the world to destruction.

 Psalms 19:7-11

7      The law of the LORD is perfect, restoring the soul;
The testimony of the LORD is sure, making wise the simple.
8     The precepts of the LORD are right, rejoicing the heart;
The commandment of the LORD is pure, enlightening the eyes.
9     The fear of the LORD is clean, enduring forever;
The judgments of the LORD are true; they are righteous altogether.
10   They are more desirable than gold, yes, than much fine gold;
Sweeter also than honey and the drippings of the honeycomb.
11   Moreover, by them Your servant is warned;
In keeping them there is great reward.

[Updated:  27 Nov 09.  It just dawned on me today that just because Brian McLaren understands murder is wrong and a born again Christian would agree that murder is wrong that that would mean that Brian McLaren is a Christian (as per interfaith logic).  Rick Warren is Obama’s Christian adviser, Obama is pro-abortion, South Africa’s legislation is pro-abortion, Brian McLaren was in South Africa recently and said nothing, no wait hang on.  If Brian McLaren were to ask Rick Warren to tell Obama…no, no wait *thinking* hang on.  If  Rob Bell were to tell Brian McLaren that the Dalai Lama told Obama that murder of homosexuals was wrong, that would make the Dalai Lama a Christian?  No, no, if Brian McLaren, when he got together with his Muslim friends this year to celebrate Ramadan this year, told them that the murder of Christians in Pakistan for eating during the day was horrific … Ahh I see a pattern emerging here.]


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Deborah (Discerning the World)

Deborah Ellish is the author of the above article. Discerning the World is an internet Christian Ministry based in Johannesburg South Africa. Tom Lessing and Deborah Ellish both own Discerning the World. For more information see the About this Website page below the comments section.

17 Responses

  1. [EDITED: THIS IS ROGER SANERS comment that has been moved here (under correct article)]

    And since I’m going to have a whole slew of un-approved comments, here’s one more: an open invitation from Brian McLaren to this website to comment on Uganda’s proposed new bill to kill or imprison homosexuals:

    DTW, will you post about this on your site? Or will you ignore it, because you’re actually quite happy that gays should be killed?

  2. [EDITED: THIS IS MICHAEL ANTHONYS comment that has been moved here (under correct article)]

    As Columbo would say; ..huh, just one more thing.

    Emergent pope Mc Claren ‘hopes’ that discernment sites will ‘discuss’ the so-called Ugandan death bill.

    He seems to be making anyone that questions his views into a bigot. That’s like a wolf complaining that the watchdog guarding the sheep is barking too loud.

    …and discernment websites have no Christian mandate to oppose Uganda’s government policies, the only mandates are –

    1. to call sinners like Mc Claren to repentance and the forgiveness of sin by Christ’s Vicarious death on the cross.
    2. to warn the flock that a wolf in sheep’s clothing is amongst them.
    3. to content earnestly for the faith given ONCE (not twice with a ‘NEW Christianity’ Mr. Mc Claren) to the saints.

    Jude 1:3
    Beloved, while I was very diligent to write to you concerning our common salvation, I found it necessary to write to you exhorting you to contend earnestly for the faith which was once for all delivered to the saints.

  3. [EDITED: THIS IS DEBORAH comment that has been moved here (under correct article)]

    Roger as per the 10 commandments of thou shalt not kill, it is plainly obvious to a genuine Christian that MURDER is wrong. So what is you point Roger???? If you think for one second that I would be happy they are killed then you are a plain ill (or a just plain ill) informed human being. Homosexuals are sinners, just like me, and you an anyone else, and if we ask Jesus Christ for forgiveness and make an concerted effort to CHANGE our wicked ways thereafter.

    NO ONE NO MATTER WHO THEY ARE DESERVES DEATH, VIOLENCE, TORTURE, bestowed on them for their sin. They are still humans just like us who need to hear the gospel of Jesus Christ the Son of God and be saved. On the day of judgement what God chooses to do with those who wanted to live in perpetual sin and go against HIS COMMANDS I don’t know…that’s their problem.

    BTW, I thought God was Transforming Africa at a rapid pace? Did it slow down at Uganda?

    You Roger said about me on Ryan Peters site:

    One day I’d like to find someone who has the same presuppositions as her, but with opposite opinions, and stick ‘em in a cage fight.

    Where do you fit into this non violence picture. Its very clear that you would love to see me hurt, really hurt, blood gushing, possibly hurt to the point of death.

  4. [EDITED: THIS IS MICHAEL ANTHONYS comment that has been moved here (under correct article)]

    Submitted on 2009/11/25 at 7:58am

    Brian Mc Claren denies

    1. A literal 2nd coming of Jesus Christ.
    2. The penal substitutionary atonement.
    3. A literal hell.
    4. The creation (genesis account)

    He is as relevant to established Christianity as Yasser Arafat was. Why does anyone even take him seriously? He is the ultimate orthodox disassembler, he can only be of his father the devil. He cannot possibly be born of God because he does not agree with what God has implicitly said, in fact he is in open rebellion to God’s established decrees. That is common sense along biblical benchmarks – so why are you quoting him as if anything he says means anything?

    Sodom and Gomorrah were not destroyed necessarily because of homosexuality; they were destroyed because the practice was not only allowed, it was condoned to the point of it being celebrated. You have to purposely misquote and mangle scripture to come with a different interpretation – with a guarantee of eternal punishment if you tamper with scripture to change the meaning into the opposite of what it says. (Mc C conveniently denies eternal punishment is a reality)

    Do you condone the practice? Yes or no? Do you believe God is OK with it? Do you celebrate it? And don’t play games here – and don’t use the Christians-hate-gays-because-they-oppose-the-practice logic, we are not 12 year olds that write with crayons. You know where Christians stand on ALL sin.

    The question again; yes or no?

    The 2nd question is; do you take Mclaren seriously?

    If you don’t why are you quoting him?

    And if there is no literal hell or Christ coming again (in judgment) what is all the fuss about? Who gives a rat’s ass about anything if none of this is true? (which ultimately is what Mc C believes – so why teach it? It makes zero, nada, no sense at all)Ultimately we all go to heaven right?

    The emergent argument is that there should be no argument; let’s all just discuss it till it’s meaningless…

    Which means debating with emergent thinkers is absolutely meaningless…

  5. [EDITED: THIS IS CECILIAS comment that has been moved here (under correct article)]

    Michael Anthony, the name is “Brian McLaren”. (lol about ur xtra ‘c’!)

    emergent/emerging – what I see when I read things of them or about them anywhere, is this factor: it’s got to make sense. and because the God of the Bible doesn’t make sense because His thoughts are higher than ours, the little people change, add or leave out till they can ‘make sense’ of it. what a shame… and so many baaaaad sheep following them blindly …

  6. Oh crickey, I moved all your comments made from one post to under this one and it seems it did not take your gravatars with…awwww now that it not nice.

  7. J O Spies says:

    Sometimes I wonder who people (leaving messages on this website) are fighting…???

    The whole idea of quoting someone is to show others what their point of view is and the position they have taken in, i.e. their opinion on scripture – what they believe the Bible says or doesn’t say…

    We need to be sure about what we are arguing about. The author of this website as well as some other regular visitors post constructive criticism.

    Then there are other people that I wonder about…

    J O

  8. Jo, don’t be confused.

    Roger is the odd one out! (The Emergent)

    Also I moved all their comments from another topic to this one, so for now it all confusing.

  9. Michael

    You read my mind on this one, hence I dedicated an entire waste of space 40kb in all to address Big Mc’s ‘trying to fix something that ain’t broken’.

  10. Roger Saner says:

    Thanks for posting Brian’s article here, Deborah, and for agreeing with him that killing people for being homosexual is wrong. I wasn’t sure that you’d ever agree with anything Brian says, so I’m glad that you’ve affirmed that commonality – horrible, isn’t it, that Uganda is considering this?

    As for my cage fighting comment, that was more about meeting you in person that it’s about seeing you hurt (which, as I’ve said before, I do NOT want). If you read my second comment on that site it explains the first: that your online anonymity is cowardly, and therefore no-one outside of your group of disciples takes you seriously. Clanging gong and all that. The best thing about seeing you in a cage fight is, well, seeing you – since you don’t do coffee or phone calls, perhaps something in your gaming past (Tekken, maybe?) calls you to shift-shift-spacebar-X round-house kick someone (me?) in the head!

    Michael, I would respond to you, but I’m banned from this blog.

  11. Agreeing with Brian McLaren that murder is wrong does in no way mean I agree with Brian McLaren on anything else he has to say. Agreeing that murder is wrong does not make anyone Christian either. A genuine Christian however will never agree to murder. How ridiculous can you get Roger.

    Regarding the rest of your thought processing capabilities. Pathetic excuse and pathetic attempt at a cover-up. Your hatred for me shows up time and time again – you can’t hide it.

  12. Roger Saner says:

    Deborah, I don’t want to see you hurt, ever. I’ve stated that before, and I’ll state that again. I’ll stand up to defend you from anyone else threatening that, if it’s in my power to do so. I’d forgotten that you pick and choose how to interpret anything – the “cage-fight” is a METAPHOR, not a threat or whatever. Never been to a cage-fight in my life, and probably never will.

  13. Michael Anthony says:


    Methinks wannabe emergent K1 is obssessed with you.


    If you want to meet people for coffee and chat to strangers on the phone you should try a online dating site. But then again you could mutate like your cousin Ryan Peter and he/she could pretend to be a girl or vice versa, then you can have online coffee . Just stay anonymous.

    Trust me, I personally don’t take you seriously either.

  14. Michael

    >> Methinks wannabe emergent K1 is obssessed with you.

    You wont believe this but someone told me this months ago already. Is it that obvious? I think I am going to try direct K1 in the direction of K2, K3’s newly found female friend. But if I am not mistaken k1 is married to k4, so K2 and K4 might not get along in which case I can see a crisis Emerging. K3 might start to feel bad about the situation (as bad as emergent’s can feel) and emerge with the fact that he is in fact K2 in disguise. This will shatter any emerging unity between K2 and K4 and K1 will be asked to sleep on the couch. Things could however get much more complicated because there might be a K5 involved but we have yet to establish their role in the matter.

    No one was harmed in any way during the making of this comment. All agents are alive and well. We know this because K1 will comment in the future again, along with K2/K3. We have spotted an infiltration of converted L’s but the rest of our undercover Alphabet has got them cornered.

  15. Hey Brian McLaren… yooo hooooo…

    Why don’t you come here and dialogue. I am sure Paton & Saner Inc. have informed thee greatly of my annoying presence.

    Let’s talk about the Gospel of Jesus Christ and why you want to change it.

  16. Roger

    I think you should work on your metaphors.

  17. barasheet says:

    Methinks that true understanding of what christianity is is misrepresented by quite a few people and also the understanding of the word murder. Me as a christian understand that the government that is righteous bears the sword to suppress evil and thus capital offences require capital punishment. In depth studies for the reason for this are found on plentry of websites so I wont reiterate them here. Murder is a capital offence and requires the blood of the murderer to be spilt by a human. When I say blood spilt think put to death for the lifer is in the blood. Bonhoeffer of Germany hatched a plot along with others to knock off Hitler again quite justifiable for a christian. If he was successful history would read differently.

    Uganda has a sovereign government and under biblical injunctions is quite within its rights to get rid of trhe abomination of homosexuality by death penalty, considering this abominational sexual deviant choice is exactly that a choice. Again we have the tool of the liberals the main media persecuting the innocent along with the false brethen siding with their liberal pals. The whole ugandan homosexual issue has not been reported in full but the theophobes and biblicalphobes have seet their own standard and reported what they want to be known, useful fools is the term the atheist mass murdering governments call them.

    Have written more tha what I was going to say but yay Uganda purge the unclean thing from your land.

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