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7 Colours of the Rainbow and the 7 Chakras

7 Colours of the Rainbow and the 7 Chakras

chakrasHow the Rainbow, Chakras/Tree of Life have infiltrated Christianity

Energy centres of the soul.  Each Chakra has it’s own function and their own unique powers.

There are actually more than 7 Chakras (a total of 13 in all),chakras Tree of Life

These 7 Chakras are the most powerful (as per occult lies) and they are located along the spine.

The 7 Chakra system is the most conventional system to follow when obtaining ‘enlightenment’.

The other 6 Chakras are less powerful (as per Occult lies) but when included in the conventional system it becomes the Tree of Life  

In many grimoires and ancient texts, the code word for Chakra is GOD or GODDESS,  So each centre within you is A GOD or a GODDESS.

 chakrasEach Chakra is associated with a COLOUR , MANTRA and SYMBOL:

7th Charka – I understand – You have reached god/goddess level
6th Chakra – I see – Opened your Third Eye – See with New eyes or New Lenses.

5th Chakra – I speak – Higher intuition – that allows you to connect to higher wisdom and guidance.

4th Chakra –  I love  – We feel connected to other beings.  We receive inspiration and wisdom from higher Charas/Gods.

3rd Chakra –  I do – The seat of power, control, freedom, or autonomy by opening our consciousness to the will of God and peace.

2nd Chakra – I feel – The seat of creative energy and what the body needs (sexuality/food, etc.)

1st Chakra – I am – The seat of the Goddess Kundilini our supposed ‘life force’. When we are gounded at this first level we trust the universe to provide.

The 7 colours of the Chakras vs. the 7 colours of the Rainbow

7 colours of the rainbow“The experience of seeing the colours of the rainbow, when the sun is shining and it has been raining, is one we all can share. The experience often has a magical quality to it as though it is stirring some deep inner response. Such is the wonder of the light that forms the colours of the rainbow.The heavenly principle is to GIVE AS WE RECEIVE. We are not intended to absorb the light of the rainbow, enlightenment, joy and happiness, rather we are intended to transmit it; and in doing so to unfold its meaning for others, and for ourselves too.”—–

“The rainbow represents the regenerate spiritual person – one who has lived out the path of enlightenment, whose potential has opened out like the lotus flower of the east, each stage represented by a new colour developing out of the one before.chakras

The main seven colours symbolise wholeness or holiness. There are a variety of rainbows sometimes seen around those in the spiritual realms – the rainbow of the ‘aura’, as it is sometimes called, picturing the spiritual state of the person.

Yoga teaches that there are seven centers or chakras in the human body. These are spiritual centers – you will not find them described in a materialistic medical book.“

The inside of the bow = The highest and innermost aspects of the soul   =   The Kingdom of Heaven

As we can see this is completely Occult / New Age / Witchcraft

If a professed Christian takes part in any of this they are playing with some serious hot fire.  You may as well get an entire deck of Tarrot Cards while you are at it.  Even though you might only be doing the Yoga stretching exercises you ARE following the ‘set out’ occult routine to obtain god/goddess hood.  And this is an ABOMINATION unto God.

You can try come up with every excuse in the book to tell me that there is nothing wrong with doing a few stretching exercises (within a Yoga context).  But these are NOT just exercises and stretching;  what about the controlled breathing, relaxation techniques, finding that silent place within you, silencing your mind, and entering trance like states, etc? (to name but a few).  Don’t get me wrong, there is nothing wrong with exercising, but when you start to follow Eastern religious practices and try make excuses that it’s JUST exercising then you are making excuses to follow after other gods.

But what about plain meditation you say, where there is no yoga or other funnies involved – it’s just prayer you tell me.  And I answer, “No!”  Unbeknown to you (and now KNOWN to you because I have told you) you are following the exact same Chakra process above.  You can’t get away from this.  You can’t make excuses, there are no, “ifs”, “ors”, or “buts”.  The answer is still ‘no’.  Meditation as mentioned in the Word of God is simple one on one normal prayer with God through Jesus Christ.

What about going to a relaxation spa or resort where they offer the most wonderful de-stressing massages.  Hot stone therapy (placing hot stones on the chakra points along your spine.  Bet you didn’t know that did you – no it’s not mentioned in the ‘Occult Massage Manual’ never to be located anywhere near the reception area.  Take Reiki for that matter –  Reiki are spirit guides – the Reiki healer will use their spirit guide to aid the so called healing process as they hover their hands over your body – you think it’s an innocent process, well no, it’s not.  And guess what, yes you do feel much better after all these massages and clanging of little bells, and having pretty semi-precious stones placed strategically over your body.  Evil really does come in great spa treatments with a complementary yummy desert at the end.

NOW DON’T GET ME WRONG, there is nothing wrong with a massage.  In fact there is nothing wrong with breathing either, because quite frankly it’s common knowledge that if you stop breathing you die.  So please let us not get all tied up in knots about what’s normal every day life exercising, stretches and breathing vs. Eastern religious practices that bring forth an awakening within you, and you end up with a new way of thinking on what the bible means or does not mean to you anymore.

You can noy call yourself a Christian if you follow and practice any form of occult teaching.  A genuine born again Christian would know that this stuff is not of God because you were already warned by the Holy Spirit that abides in you.   If you have accidentally been caught up into this contemplative prayer, meditation, walking labyrinths, silence, secret places, new spirituality mysticism, please stop, and ask God for forgiveness, get out of this very well disguised deception.  And once you realise what this is all about, you now need to warn others you care about too.

We are living in perilous times where time itself seems to have sped up.  Almost as though time is running out.  The faster time seems to speed past us the faster the world is diving head first into New Age Spiritual practices as I mentioned in this article.  Millions upon millions of people have reached their 6th Chakra already- they have opened their Third Eye (they can see through new eyes or new lenses).

Ron Martoia (who came to South Africa recently) harped on for quite a few minutes about taking off your old lenses and putting on new ones to see through new eyes at the world around us – that there is a new truth out there just waiting to be tapped into by you – yes you dear reader, if only you would do as they say and learn to climb that Tree of Life.  Place first foot on first Chakra and then 2nd foot on 2nd Chakra and so on until you reach that top branch – the Crown Chakra – King of your own little imaginary kingdom, ruler of your own little domain –  A global humanitarian mutiny to take over something they never created and will never own.   And will never be able to create to call their own.

And The One and Only Living God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob stares down on you you from on high.  Your personal Towel of Babel – a piddly 7 feet tall, will only go so high and no more – take a lesson from Genesis 10 & 11.

You have 2 choices.  Just 2. You are either for JESUS CHRIST the ONLY BEGOTTEN SON of the ONE and ONLY LIVING GOD or you choose the world and their secret places, and secret knowledge instead, where you either get to enjoy your sin or get to hide your sin thinking that God can’t see you.

Just a few of  the types of Occult Meditation out there:-  Even available at Christian book stores.

Occult Meditation

There are many ways of meditating and meditation means different things to different people. Meditation is part of normal daily practice for a great number of people within some religions. Whatever the word ‘meditation’ means to you the practice can be enormously helpful as a way of calming the mind and finding your own inner peace.  This place of inner peace is where we can open up to our higher self – without the ‘interference’ of the ego or intellect – where we can find our higher intelligence and knowing.

Meditation can be achieved by focusing the mind on a particular object, for example a flower, or on a simple shape, on a sound, on an image (visualization), or by focusing on the breathing. (Colour breathing exercises can be done lying down or sitting and can be a very helpful form of meditation.)   There are many very helpful tapes and CD’s around to help with meditation as they will talk the listener through the stages of relaxation and some will help to build a ‘picture’ in the minds eye of tranquility.   With practice, you will find it becomes easier and easier to meditate and to be able to ‘switch off’ any time, anywhere, when you are feeling the need for some peace.

Occult Breathing Meditation

Breathing is very important – and as obvious as that sounds, it is surprising how few of us actually do breathe ‘properly’. Breathing is something we all take for granted and are inclined to forget about. However, shallow breathing can often be a symptom of stress. Similarly, shallow breathing can result in fatigue and stress due to the intake of insufficient oxygen.  Shallow breathing can also result in dizzy turns as insufficient oxygen is getting to the brain. Since approximately 90% of our energy is created by oxygen and nearly all the body’s actions regulated by it – it is rather important that we get enough of it!!

Go somewhere quiet and lie down or sit in a chair with good back support so that your body is straight, allowing you to breathe deeply and comfortably. Make sure you are not wearing any tight clothing. Tell yourself to relax. Work on every part of your body from the top of your head to your toes, consciously relaxing each part. Concentrate on your breathing, taking deep in-breaths, through the nose, letting the breath fill your body, relaxing and calming. Then breathe out through your nose or mouth, exhaling all negativity and stress and ridding your body of the toxins which build up there. Repeat this a number of times – if you can only manage 10 minutes that is fine. Eventually you will be able to practice this anywhere, any time, when you are feeling stressed. Try not to hunch your shoulders as you breathe in – try to consciously relax the shoulders and neck and breathe from the abdomen – watch your tummy expand as you breathe in.

There are a number of breathing techniques which are taught by practitioners of different disciplines, either on a one to one basis or in a group, such as a workshop perhaps.   If you have a particular medical problem, then a good place to start is with your doctor, who will be able to advise you.

Occult Colour Breathing Meditation

A lovely and very helpful exercise is Colour Breathing – or breathing in the rainbow.  The purpose of this is to heighten our awareness of colour and to encourage a balance of all the seven main chakra colours for our well being.

Stand with feet slightly apart and arms by your side, relaxed with palms turned to the front. Relax the shoulders, and concentrate on your breathing, consciously relaxing all of your body from the top of your head to the tips of your toes. Breathe deeply in through the nose, holding for a few moments and then breathing out through the nose or mouth. As you breathe out, imagine expelling all the stress, negativity and toxins from your body. If you can do this exercise outside all the better, and, weather permitting, stand on grass with bare feet.

Affirmations, either spoken out loud or as a concentrated thought, can be helpful too to help us focus and avoid our minds from wandering. For example, red is the Colour of courage and strength – we could say to ourselves – the energy of red fills my body and I have the strength and courage to move forward along my life’s path. It doesn’t matter how we word our affirmations – they will be unique to each individual – but remember the positive aspects of the colours and make sure your statements are positive.

First breathe in red from the earth, imagine it rising up through your whole body giving you strength and courage. Make an affirmation to suit your situation as you breathe in and experience the colour filling your body. Allow the colour to travel up through the body and out of the top of the head and then back down again to the earth. Repeat with orange and an appropriate affirmation, then yellow. These first three colours are absorbed from the earth. Then green. This colour is absorbed horizontally through the solar plexus, let it fill your body, thinking or speaking your affirmation, and let it leave through the back. Then blue which is absorbed from the sky, through the top of the head and out again going back up to the sky, similarly with the indigo and violet.

If this exercise is done daily you will notice how your colour awareness develops and you will be able to visualize the colours much more strongly as you do this exercise regularly, balancing and enhancing your body’s energies.

Explanation of the Occult 7 Chakra Table:

Please also see important notes underlined in last column “Mind and Spirit”.

Chakra Location Symbol Colour Element Sense Body Parts Mind and Spirit
Crown7th Chakra       Sahasrara Chakra  top of head thousand-petal Lotus flower violet inner light empathy brain, nervous system,pineal gland the Crown, or Seventh, Chakra is a source of divine energy and self-realization. It is the gateway to the other world.  An open and balanced Crown Chakra allows us to experience oneness with God and unity with all beings.  We surrender to Divine Will. We can experience enlightenment, inner light, higher consciousness and higher intelligence.
Chakra Location Symbol Colour Element Sense BodyParts Mind and Spirit
Third Eye

6th Chakra       Ajna Chakra
center of forehead two-petal Lotus flower indigo inner sound Sensory Perception (ESP), clairvoy-ance, clairaud-iance forehead, temples, facial nerves, pituitary gland, endocrine system. the Third Eye, or Sixth, Chakra belongs to the spiritual realm and vision. It ishome of the spirit and the part of consciousness that influences our actions and our life. An open and balanced Third Eye Chakra allows us to look beyond our own issues to see a more complete, “enlightened” picture of reality. We become aware of the motivation behind our actions. We may experience extra sensory perception (ESP), inner sound and clairvoyance.
Chakra Location Symbol Colour Element Sense Body Parts Mind and Spirit
Throat  5th Chakra         Vishuddha  Chakra base of throat sixteen-petal Lotus flower sky blue ether (crossover between the physical and spiritual worlds) hearing throat, neck, arms, hands, thyroid gland the throat is our instrument of communication, thus the Throat, or Fifth Chakra is the seat of communication and expression of all that is happening in our consciousness. An open and balanced Throat Chakra allows us to communicate truthfully and express our feelings, as well as our creativity. We will be able to receive, allowing abundance and grace to be experienced. We will listen to our intuition and connect to a higher wisdom and guidance.
Chakra Location Symbol Colour Element Sense Body Parts Mind and Spirit
Heart 4th Chakra     Anahata Chakra center of chest, heart twelve-petal Lotus flower green air touch circulatory system, lungs, chest area the Heart, or Fourth, Chakra is the joining point between the higher and lower chakras. Here we experience perceptions of love, emotions, compassion, and balance. An open and balanced Heart Chakra will allow us to feel connected to other beings, to understand unconditional love, to accept others and not judge them or condemn them. We also experience a lightness of being that is nourished by the inspiration and wisdom of the higher chakras and strengthened by the grounding energy of the lower chakras
Chakra Location Symbol Colour Element Sense Body Parts Mind and Spirit
Solar Plexus  3rd Chakra     Manipura Chakra solar plexus ten-petal Lotus flower yellow fire (or Sun) sight solar plexus, muscles, skin, digestion, liver, eyes, face the Solar Plexus, or Third, Chakra is the seat of our desire for power, control, freedom, or autonomy. A balanced Solar Plexus Chakra will enable us to be confident and comfortable with ourselves, while opening our consciousness to the will of God and peace. Our creativity and work will manifest easily.
Chakra Location Symbol Colour Element Sense Body Parts Mind and Spirit
Sacral  2nd Chakra Svadis-thana Chakra center of abdomen six-petal Lotus flower orange water taste sexual organs, reproduc-tive system. the Sacral, or Second, Chakra is the seat of our creative energy and is associated with what the body needs and what it finds pleasurable (sexuality/food). A balanced Sacral Chakra enables us to accept and solve the challenges of life in a creative manner; to understand and incorporate our sexuality responsibly, and to feel and express our emotions.
Chakra Location Symbol Colour Element Sense Body Parts Mind and Spirit
Root 1st Chakra   Mulad-hara Chakra base of spine four-petal Lotus flower red earth smell lymph system, skeleton, elimination, central nervous system, nose, lower extremities The Root, or First, Chakra is the seat of the “Kundalini” or life force.Our feelings of security, trust, and survival are rooted here, as well as our connection with the physical body and its nourishment. When our root chakra is balanced, we feel grounded, strong and secure and trust the universe to provide.

The Bible says in Genesis 3:5  “For God knows that in the day you eat from it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.”


80 comments to 7 Colours of the Rainbow and the 7 Chakras

  • Amanda

    Alrighty then. Moving along.

    Here is another link to Chris Rosebrough’s review of two sermons preached by Shane Hipps, friend of thinker Rob Bell. See what you think of this Christian, Chris’ thoughts on Shane’s sermon on enlightenment from the Gospel of John chapter 1, no less.

    And heed Chris’ words well, Christian. Do not do what Shane preached to his church to do. You would be opening yourself up to demonic influence.

  • Amanda

    Dr. Guillaume Smit responds:

    A Christian New Age Blog Entry
    Labels: irony, satire

    I was very surprised to stumble along the following blogpost over the weekend. I’ve come to know this particular blogger as a person with radically fundamentalistic views regarding the Christian religion.

    Here, suddenly, she places an article on buddhist prayer, linking it to the colours of the rainbow. I would have given her credit if she included any explanatory remarks, but the only piece of information is the heading, “7 Colours of the Rainbow and the 7 Chakras,” leaving the article open to any possible interpretation.

    Two thoughts spring to mind.

    First, since when does the colours rainbow signify anything buddhist? If I understand the Genesis story correctly, the rainbow was given as proof of God’s promise to Noah. Therefore, she must be implying that the Bible is actually linking with Buddhist religion to help us Christians with meditation and prayer. That’s awfully nice of her, but I’m not going to pray any of these mantras soon, thank you. As far as I can remember, the rainbow has Christian symbolism, reminding us of God who keeps his promises. Anybody else who wants to utilise the symbol for some other meaning – like DTW’s blog post, or the use of the rainbow as symbol for the gay movement – do this on their own conscience. The Bible was first. And if a Christian blog such as DTW posts new age stuff without any explanation one would be bound to think they are dabbling with syncretism.

    Second: I could invite the devil into my soul without knowing it by reading this post! DTW should be on the look out that she doesn’t get bound by any demons by placing curses on her through this obvious dabbling with other religions and philosophies.

    For clarity: As I’ve read through previous entries of this blog,I came to the conclusion that a Christian who reads stuff from people with demonic, new age or emerging church links, will open themselves to creating a strong-hold for a demonic force in their own lives. DTW is doing just that with this specific entry.

    So, somebody, please help me out here: As I’ve read quite a few books from her lists of emerging church thinkers, does anybody know an excorcist close at hand that can come pray with me? I really don’t want to become caught in the devil’s trap unknowingly through my interest in other Christian’s thoughts!
    Posted by Guillaume Smit

    I … I … am speechless!

    For now.

  • Discerning the World

    Oh my, I am also speechless. How can anyone misinterpret my article like that? *confused*

    Besides he reads Leonard Sweet and ranks him on his list of good books….

  • Discerning the World

    I have made the following comment on Guilluame’s website:

    Guilluame LOL, you are a pathetic little man. You can’t come and have biblical discussion so you go and find some rubbish to speak about. You are a fool second to none.

    The Rainbow has Christian symbolism when God promised HE would NOT DESTROY SINFUL WICKED MANKIND again via a Flood. I consider the rainbow God sent as a Promise that
    He would not destroy mankind that way again, but also as a reminder of what he did once to a wicked people who followed after OTHER GODS like you and Stephan Joubert and Nelus Niemands and Brain McLaren, Rob Martoia, Leonard Sweet etc, etc, etc, etc who preach occult teaching and lead them VERTICALLY up the tree of life – you know the one IN THE BIBLE.

    I pray your congregation catch wind of your sly wolf dribble soon

    Edited by DTW – 9 Oct 09:

    Public apology to Guilluame made here: – I hope he posts this one too.


    I would like to make a public apology to you regarding my unnaceptable comment to you above. I should not have called you pathetic and foolish. I sincerily apologise for these nasty words of mine.

    Deborah @ Discerning the World

  • Amanda

    Can somebody please, please explain the satire in Dr. Guillaume Smit’s post to me? I don’t get it. [Ek is ‘n ou vrou en het nie tyd vir nonsies nie.]

    Thank you.

  • Discerning the World

    Nope, sorry Amanda I can’t help you either. Maybe we should just write this one off…as a bad joke.

    Guilluame maybe take up gardening or decoupage or something

  • cecilia

    hey! watch out! I’m doing decoupagé! this is quite interesting topic to follow if you read all the blogs on the same matter on the same day! cecilia

  • Discerning the World

    Hahaha C, but your’re a woman and woman do decoupage :)

  • Amanda

    Dr. Guillaume Smit adds:

    I need to add a last, final remark, though: After I pointed out the fallacy of the blog post on DTW, the writer actually reacted (see the comment section below) and then changed her blog entry to include a paragraph on faith in Christ.

    Although it is appreciated that she took the confusion and my comment to heart – and tried to correct the false teaching with a paragraph under the heading,”AS WE CAN SEE THIS IS COMPLETELY OCCULT,” added to the entry – the question remains: what about those persons who read her initial entry over the past few days (before Sunday evening) and actually started meditating the chakras as she discussed it?!

    Okay, I get it now. He did not scroll down and did not see the ‘paragraph’ that followed the table. It was included in the original article. I made reference to a particularly interesting line in an e-mail I sent on Sat, Sep 26, 2009 at 9:55 PM. I saved the article 27 September 2009 12:57:15.

    People do not need DTW to start meditating. They have Stephan Joubert teaching it to them in the Dutch Reformed Church.

  • Discerning the World

    Oh my goooddddneeeessssssssssss me…. *astounded, almost faints, shocked beyond belief, totally flabberghasted- calls Leonard Sweet to let him know that Guilluame Smit might have miss-read every single one of his books and mistaken them as being Christian*

    Guilluame, I tell you what, instead of lying just admit that you did not click the CONTINUE TO READ THE REST OF THIS ARTICLE HERE link. In fact I am wondering if you have read any of them. No, you haven’t otherwise you would have known about the CONTINUE TO READ THE REST OF THIS ARTICLE HERE link. Or last case scenario, just to give you the benefit of the doubt – You just DID NOT READ the entire article and did not scroll down to below the table.

    In fact if you read all my articles you would see the inclusion of faith in JESUS CHRIST the SON OF GOD. And that is the real Jesus Christ of scripture – not the New World Christ.

    And I guarantee you everyone who read any of my blog since Sunday would have seen all of this – Take off those occult glasses Guillaume and put back your old glasses called the BIBLE.

    I suggest getting a cactus, they are hardy plants and are easy to take care of, i.e., not much attention is needed in looking after them.

  • Discerning the World

    Oh and just for you, I moved the MASSIVE paragraph that was there ALL THE TIME higher up so you can see it and added some extra details for you incase you are still confused.

    I still think a cactus is a good choice.

  • Discerning the World

    After moving the my paragraphs from below the table to above the table because Guilluame didn’t see them as they were below the table. The table is just not fitting on the page properly (re:- width) – sorry folks, I am working on the problem.

    For Guilluame: this means that the table is really not fitting on the page. Just incase you miss-read the sentense, or skipped over it, or just didn’t see it. This also means that the paragraphs were originally there (AT THE BOTTOM OF THE TABLE) I have moved the paragraphs above the table now.

  • cecilia

    “But unbeknownst to you, you have become the demon you are accusing other to be harbouring in their midst.”
    “I have never, ever in my whole life have even heard of the 7 Chakras, or read anything by any Christian writers …”

    hallooooooeeee! I’m calling from Mars! This is what Scripture calls ‘maliciously speaking’. I truly did not expect this of one who says he believes in and lives out Jesus. MS – just let it go, you are harming yourself, your congregation, others who believe in biblical Jesus, those who might still come to faith and unbelievers!


    ps, maybe you should relax a little on your orthodox reformed theology … just a thought … I got a feeling it’s keeping you in bondage ….;;

    just to name three…. google search to find more.

  • Amanda

    Dr. Guillaume Smit continues:

    I can vouch for my own integrity, and I know for a fact that your so-called “moved up higher paragraph” was shining in its absence on your blog the whole of Saturday and until at least Sunday afternoon. I know, because my incredulity was so big as you so seemingly lied to your readers while insubstantiatingly accusing other Christians of heresy, that I had to return to your blog several times just to make sure my eyes do not deceive me.

    Now that you’re caught with your proverbial hand in the cookie jar, let me just say this: How can you expect anybody to take your other views seriously when you:

    I repeat: It was included in the original article. I made reference to a particularly interesting line in an e-mail I sent on Sat, Sep 26, 2009 at 9:55 PM. I saved the article 27 September 2009 12:57:15.

    DTW, could you please forward my saved copy that shows the original layout to Dr. Smit?

  • Discerning the World

    Oh boy, Guillaume. It’s been there all the time. Prepare your ‘I am sorry speech’. Actually just a plain, ‘I am sorry’ would do.

    Oh wait I also had it sent to me cos I am on my own subscription list…doh. Oh 2 copies to prove you wrong twice :)

    Oh gosh, can’t email them to GS dunno what his email is. I’ll just save the emails as PDF’S and load them up here for download.

    Make that 3:

    And don’t worry about saying sorry Guillaume …because only you will know in your heart if you are really sorry or not – so saying it won’t mean much.

    You still follow after leaders and preachers who slither in dark arts, you place men who are against Christianity on a pedistal, you lift them up high so they can entice and seduce using big words to impress and convince youngsters – you grovel at their feet lifting them up as being Christian. But you put me down who exposes the darkness that has infiltrated the church.

    Well I actually didn’t expect any less. It’s typical Emergent tactics: ‘if all else fails, lie your way out of it – even if no one believes you, just lie. – even if the proof is smacking you left right and centre – just lie and deny.”

    As for this not allowing comments only by those who I want is a load of nonsense – I allow everyone to comment until they turn downright nasty. I have asked you to come comment here but you won’t, you hide… in that little secret place.

    Questions and Answers regarding GS’s new article…
    When is it permissable to lie in Jesus’ name?

    It’s amazing to see how a cat on a hot tin roof can make precarious leaps.

    My dear friend from the Christian Hate Blog, Discerning the World, suddenly tries to convince her readers that she had her paragraph on how the 7 Chakras have become part of Christian thinking in her original blogpost all the time. She accuses me of the occult and what not else, while she has been lying through her teeth.

    >>>>>>>>> No, no…you are the deceiver here.

    DTW, I initially couldn’t believe my eyes when I first read your post, on Saturday if memory serves me correct. I returned to your blog several times, dumbfounded, since you were the one writing a whole post on how I am deceiving Christianity with my article on the end of Ramadan, and saying I am luring my congregation into the occult, or something of the sort.

    In all your blog entries and the comments which you participated in, you didn’t hesitate for a single moment to murder my character and integrity without even ascertaining for yourself of what I believe. You just thundered along and joyously participated in the lie the devil (which you profess to oppose) is spreading about ordinary pastors and Christian thinkers.

    Now you have been caught out.

    >>>>>>>>> No, no…you believe that celebrating ramadan which is a worship fast for the god Allah is just super cool and even twittered Brian McLaren with a ‘ohhh I so admire you even more because you are celebrating Ramadan” or something to that effect. And if your congregation find that problematic then you have a seriously smart congregation – hats off to them. YAY for all Christians out there who can think for themselves, who use their GOD GIVEN brains to study the Word of God for themselves and TEST their pastor to see if he is telling the truth. I don’t read anywhere that when you get a degree in theology or religious studies and become a pastor that one becomes immune to telling half-truths and can’t be questioned anymore for they passed an exam of sorts that supposedly asked the truth and nothing but the truth. Quite the contrary actually seems to take place.

    >>>>>>>>>And nope, tis you that hast been caughtest outest.

    >>>>>>> No, you only choose to read what you want, and now refuse to say sorry for making a simple mistake.

    I can vouch for my own integrity, and I know for a fact that your so-called “moved up higher paragraph” was shining in its absence on your blog the whole of Saturday and until at least Sunday afternoon. I know, because my incredulity was so big as you so seemingly lied to your readers while insubstantiatingly accusing other Christians of heresy, that I had to return to your blog several times just to make sure my eyes do not deceive me.

    Now that you’re caught with your proverbial hand in the cookie jar, let me just say this: How can you expect anybody to take your other views seriously when you:

    >>>>>>>> No, I only moved the paragraph higher up this afternoon. Please see snapshots saved to pdf from 3 seperate people prooving that content was there all the time – you are making a big mountain out of a mole hill to cause trouble and detract us all from the FACTS.

    i) don’t even make sure your articles are posted completely. I am subscribed to several blogs via a RSS feed, DTW’s blog included, as this allows me to read only the latest articles that are being posted. When you click on the link, the whole article pops up and not just a headline with a link saying something like “continue to read further”, thus I know for a fact I was not mistakenly leaving out some part of this article of yours;

    >>>>>>> Well then you are the only with this problem, see proof above that it was there all the time and you just can’t admit you were wrong. It’s not a big deal, gosh people do things like this all the time, but they don’t go off and write fairytale after fairytale as to how everthing looked different when they saw it. They just say, ‘oops, sorry’

    ii) can’t even run an ordinary spell check on your articles to correct your own typing errors;

    >>>>>>> You can’t tell the difference between what’s Christian and what’s Occult. You can’t tell the difference between Jesus Christ and a fake Christ

    iii) don’t even have the decency to spell your adversaries’ names correctly or get their titles right (since you so eagerly want to tell your readers you are attacking rev So-and-so and not just any Tom, Dick and Harry) – as a matter of public record, my name is spelled G-U-I-L-L-A-U-M-E;

    >>>>>> LOL, so spelling your name correctly is more important than making sure you don’t follow after new age leaders teaching doctrines of demons and leading your church right to hell. Which YOU will be held accountable for. I apologise for spelling your name incorrectly.

    iv) expect your readers to trust your word and your word alone on the deception you say is seeping into the church, while you hide behind anonimity (what is your real name again? What real-life ministry do you conduct off-line? To what group of spiritual leaders are you accountable to?); and

    >>>>>> No, there is this book called the Bible where the WORDS can be TRUSTED ABOVE ALL, your words, church affiliations, ministries, and those you think you are accountable too or those you think are accountable to you.

    v) You refuse to publish the comments of people opposing your views, choosing instead to only publish those of the people who strengthen your own views (like Cecilia’s and Amanda’s – interestingly, their names pop up only on your blog and that of Thomas Lessing’s – couldn’t you perhaps be the same person in real life?).

    >>>>>>> Errrrr…ok, I’ll play along. Yes I am the same person as myself, in fact I am cecelia, amanda, Thomas, Sarel, Stephan Joubert, Roger Saner. In fact if you ask Nic Paton nicely he will be anyone you want him to be.

    You take so high a position on repentance and the confessing of sins to receive redemption in Jesus’ name. And you cannot wait to tell your readers who has fallen in the trap of satan. Yet when YOU make a mistake, you have neither the integrity nor the emotional intelligence to accept responsibility for your mistakes, choosing to attack the person personally rather than his/her viewpoints.

    >>>>>>> Um, ok we have covered this one already a few times. I did not make a mistake, you just can’t read properly.

    Let it forever stand that you placed an article without checking if it has published correctly, and when your mistake was exposed, you chose to shift the blame rather than making sure there wasn’t an honest misunderstanding somewhere that you could have been responsible for.

    >>>>>>> Let it forever stand that you follow after occult teaching and teachers and when exposed like to shift the spot light off you onto by using downright silly arguments. So you make up stuff like this and then go write an article about it. Well goody gum drops for you, but it didn’t work. You managed to do a great job of digging a big hole for yourself on that very first article you wrote about Thomas and others and then the one about “Islam being a culture” was classic blunder of note.

    And let it forever stand that your conduct in all this was to belittle and harass your opponent personally, rather than sticking to the issue. This is totally unacceptable in light of the Bible. You are no better than Ananias and Saffira (Acts 5). You are like king Saul when Samuel told him God has rejected him. You are exposing yourself as a sower of discord in the body of Christ, hiding behind your so-called theological purity. But unbeknownst to you, you have become the demon you are accusing other to be harbouring in their midst.

    >>>>>>> And let it BE FOREVER…bla bla bla….bla…bla…..bla…bla….harrass you personally? HUH!!! What about all those Christians saved out of Islam who face the death penalty. Now that’s harassment. Anyhow back to the Bible, you know there was this guy called Simon Magus, well you fit his story rather well. Delving into occult teaching, he even tried to buy the Holy Spirit from Peter to sell to his followers.

    >>>>>>> Let me remind you of something. THOSE WHO PREACH ANOTHER GOSPEL, A GOSPEL THAT IS ANTI-CHRIST are the ones who sow discord in the body of Christ. These wolves who crept in unawares and has shredded teeth through the pages of scripture.

    >>>>>>> Since the beginning I have not once called you a bretheren or brother in Christ for you are not a genuinely born again Christian. If you were you would not be confused and one minute call me a sister and then a demon, then another time a Christian sister and then an instrument of the devil. I know who rules your heart, I know who controls your tongue – you are two faced and have a forked tongue.

    One last point: I have never, ever in my whole life have even heard of the 7 Chakras, or read anything by any Christian writers remotely resembling what you have published in this post you now so fervently defend. I haven’t even seen traces of this in the publications of the so-called fringe writers (people who are willing to harbour ideas that I, an orthodox reformed theologian, would consider strange and theologically unsound).

    >>>>>>> You’ve never heard of it? Youre kidding? Nah…I think you are kidding. But I’ll play along again, of course you haven’t that’s why it’s called a DECEPTION. Do you think they are going to present poison to you on a silver platter labelled poison? No! Wake Up and smell the coffee. So you don’t know what your friend Stephan Joubert speaks about? How about Ron Martoia when he was here in SA ? I find it hard to believe you have no idea what Leonard Sweet is talking bout? Are you saying that you are just blindly following what they say and nodd your head when everyone else nodds their head, trying to make it seem like you know what on earth these guys are actually talking about? ……. But then again you don’t think there is anything remotely wrong with Harry Potter. Ok, nevermind, don’t asnwer that one.

    Are you quite sure you are barking up the right tree? It seems that you are so trying to convince Christiandom of the imminent arrival of the antichrist (according to your own theology), that you are actively creating an alternative scenario in which the devil has more power than afforded to him by the Bible.

    >>>>>>> Oh so you don’t believe there will be an anti-Christ? Or a man of lawlessness as so plainly and clearly stated in the Bible…well that answers a ton of questions. As for the last part of that sentence…..”alternative scenario in which the devil has more power than afforded to him by the Bible.” Well no GS becuase he was defeated 2000 years ago by Jesus Christ – Satan has no right over us. But he can still prowl around and he is devouring those who choose to follow after him instead of Jesus Christ – we just have to take a look at your favourite authors list to get a glimps of that. Also if there is not going to be a man of lawlessness then who is Jesus Christ coming back to judge?? Or is the Christ you wait for, a diffeent Christ who comes to bring you heaven on earth, sin and all.

    It would seem to me that you are actually the one who is busy doing the devil’s job for him and not the writers who you so generously accuse of heresy. You must beware that one of these people you so incessantly accuse don’t get fed-up with your bullying and harassment and take you to a secular court for libel or something of the sort. A few of my readers actually have quite serious legal credentials and according to them you have stepped over this boundary already.

    >>>>>>> *yawn* yes I’ve heard that you do that often – threaten with legal action….*yawn*

    With this I am openly and personally admonishing you to do some introspection. The road along which you and your friends are travelling are destroying God’s work and enhancing that of the devil. You are not protecting the Christian faith. On the contrary. You are destroying it. And in the process you are lying and twisting the truth and creating tremendous stumbling blocks for the spreading of gospel of Jesus Christ. Those of us who are seriously trying to reach a lost generation with the one and true redemption of Jesus Christ now not only have to fight against the blockades of sin, but also against the prejudices towards the Redemeer Himself, as this is created by people like you, your judgemental legalism and your childish behaviour.

    >>>>>>> *yawn*

    As I said previously to other bloggers who share your views, I will henceforth not be involved in any discussions or arguments with you, as I know it will only result in more mudslinging and harassment from your side.

    >>>>>>> who? I thought all those people (Thomas, amanda, cecilia and sponge bob) were all me in disguise. Mudslining and harrassment from my side only? Yeah you are soo right, I have not seen a single nasty word come from you… *puts halo on top of your head* A Halo is a depiction of the Catholic Sun God worship you know (have you read about this before anywhere?) – maybe next year you can wear it when you go to Mecca (all faiths are uniting so you should be all excited about this).

    >>>>>>>>>>>You know that in the last days Jesus Christ says he doubts He will find any faith left on earth when he returns. So yes, we are in the minority (speaking about the fundermentalists that is aka born again Christians – Emergents so love to call us fundermentalists – fundermentalists because we hold onto the fundamentals of the Word of God). This is why you don’t really have anything to worry about when it comes to people ever leaving your church once they find out you are New Age Christian. There are thousands of people out there just busting at the seams to get to know your New Age Christ. Your church will be overflowing…but remember what Jesus said about finding little faith when he returns. The narrow parth is the one to follow not the wide path to GS’s church door.

    But know this: If you publish anything remotely untrue again, I and others like me will not hesitate to hold you accountable for your half-truths and twisted ramblings. We are part of the one and only body of Christ, and we will not stand on the sidelines any longer watching you actively destroy God’s work with your slanderous yapping

    >>>>>>> *ghasps* untrue? NO GS you are the one who is telling untrue things and saying it’s biblical, all I am doing is quoting your words (in fact I am not even just quoting your words, I am critiquing your ENTIRE articles as a whole so if what you have written is untrue then….errrr….*silence, crickets, krikk krikk, krikk krikk*

    Anyhow, just to let you know I will WARN WARN WARN WARN WARN the flock, the ones you lead astray until the day I die.

  • cecilia

    Dr. Guillaume Smit – 2009-09-27
    “Second: I could invite the devil into my soul without knowing it by reading this post!”
    “does anybody know an excorcist close at hand that can come pray with me?”

    YES, oh yes, I do!

    But I have to say this first, as a ‘religious man’ you should know that it is by your own free will you ‘invite the devil into your soul’

    My previous pastor used to ask anyone who ask him to pray for them: did you pray for yourself yet? After Jesus came, we actually don’t need ‘an excorcist’ (your spelling), we already have ‘a DELIVERER’, His name is Jesus Christ; for – “He was delivered over to death for our sins and was raised to life for our justification.” (Romans 4:25)
    And – “Do not say, “I’ll pay you back for this wrong!” Wait for the LORD, and he will deliver you.” (Proverbs 20:22)
    But there’s a warning also: “Though you already know all this, I want to remind you that the Lord delivered his people out of Egypt, but later destroyed those who did not believe.” (Jude 1:5)

    DTW – well done with this article! keep standing! cecilia

  • cecilia

    for interest sake DTW: the people who pray for others in many churches/organizations, touch these specific areas during prayer. when I realized it whilst reading the article again, I was shocked that that was exactly where I was touched whilst being prayed for (in the past). cecilia

  • cecilia

    “>>>>>>> Errrrr…ok, I’ll play along. Yes I am the same person as myself, in fact I am cecelia, amanda,…”
    I’m gonna turn emergent for a second: DTW, my name is Cecilia; PLEASE spell my name correctly: C-E-C-I-L-I-A !!
    LOllllllllll c

  • Discerning the World


    I had to repent and ask Jesus for forgiveness for the day I was once slain in the spirit (yip, Slain in the Spirit peeps). Our deliverance comes through Jesus Christ and repentance of our sin. Even unbeknown to us at the time – because we were foolish and didn’t know any different. Close any doors that have been opened up by being led astray through ‘white’ Christian magic- recognise these things through the guidance of the Holy Spirit in one’s life and then ask Jesus for forgiveness and deliverance is instant. There are not enough words in the world to describe the wonder and power and majesty of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ who died for us that we who believe in Him through faith may be saved.

    Jesus Christ King of Kings, Lord of Lords, in All Power and Glory seated at the right hand of the Father waiting to return. A God so mighty that no mind can comprehend His magnificence but yet there are lowly little minds on this earth who think they are so special – deserving of special treatment – this special treatment involves not having to humble themselves before their CREATOR and admit their sin.

    Well I am a sinner, I humble myself before my Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ every day and I beg Him for forgiveness for I am not worthy to be saved. That He went through the most agonizing pain and suffering for me? That he died and his blood poured over me to wash me spotless that I can be presented before our Heavenly Father. Then tomorrow I wake up and I am humbled again at the awesome work He does in my life – when I don’t deserve it because I am a sinner. A sinner saved by grace. I cry…over the love that I feel I don’t deserve. But He showers me with more and then I just cry even more.

    And then you have people who kick Jesus in the face, they laugh at Him and mock Him. They take His Words and twist them. They stand by the side of wicked people and watch with glee as those who really love Jesus will get taken away and imprisoned or murdered just because they BELIEVE with ALL THEIR HEART that Jesus Christ is the Son of God. And that nothing will tear them away from Him.

    What I wrote in this article is the CORE of what is going on in the Church. All New Age Spirituality / Occult teaching centers around this. But yet they will read this and either ignore it, insult me, call me a liar, attack my belief in Jesus Christ, dismiss anything I saw as being pathetic because only the learned theologian can know it all.

    But you know what…I don’t care. I will carry on warning… I love Jesus Christ way too much to give into a bunch of evil doers – if anything happens to me, it will be for God’s Glory ONLY. Jesus’ message of Salvation will never cease no matter how hard these people try destroy it.

    What turns my tears into smiles? Knowing that I have Jesus Christ on my side and knowing that the Holy Spirit is speaking to people right now warning them to get out of this false church. It warms my heart to know that someone out there somewhere read something on this blog of mine, and by the grace of God and the gentle whispers of the Holy Spirit got saved.

    Well, now that I have a blocked nose and an onset of a sinus headache from sobbing my heart out here…I will hence forth proceed to bed.

    Nighty Night

  • Discerning the World

    I can’t find C-E-C-I-L-I-A in the spellchecker ;)

  • Roger Saner

    Many of my comments have been deleted off this blog (although most of them haven’t). This lends some credibility to Guillaume’s claim of: “You refuse to publish the comments of people opposing your views.”

    That said, this debate is so tiresome. I’m outta here.

  • Amanda


    You refuse to publish the comments of people opposing your views,
    choosing instead to only publish those of the people who strengthen your own views

    Is this true? Roger Saner, Nic Paton and the others agree with DTW?

    (like Cecilia’s and Amanda’s – interestingly, their names pop up only on your blog and that of Thomas Lessing’s – couldn’t you perhaps be the same person in real life?).

    C-E-C-I-L-I-A, I beseech you, tell me the truth. How many times have you commented on Thomas’ blog? Or am I you or you me or are we both D-T-W? By the way, Thomas is a real man.

  • cecilia

    you’ve been cursed (called negative names) SOOO much D, hated over the internetwaves. But:
    “1 May the LORD answer you when you are in distress;may the name of the God of Jacob protect you.
    2 May he send you help from the sanctuary and grant ou support from Zion.
    3 May he remember all your sacrifices and accept your burnt offerings. Selah (pause and think about this)
    4 May he give you the desire of your heart and make all your plans succeed.
    5 We will shout for joy when you are victorious
    and will lift up our banners in the name of our God.
    May the LORD grant all your requests.
    6 Now I know that the LORD saves his anointed;
    he answers him from his holy heaven with the saving power of his right hand.
    7 Some trust in chariots and some in horses,
    but we trust in the name of the LORD our God.
    8 They are brought to their knees and fall,but we rise up and stand firm.” Ps 20
    I just want to say: p’s 2 u! c

  • Amanda

    Dr. Guillaume Smit: “But know this: If you publish anything remotely untrue again, I and others like me will not hesitate to hold you accountable for your half-truths and twisted ramblings. We are part of the one and only body of Christ, and we will not stand on the sidelines any longer watching you actively destroy God’s work with your slanderous yapping.”

    As you wish.

    “I can vouch for my own integrity, and I know for a fact that your so-called “moved up higher paragraph” was shining in its absence on your blog the whole of Saturday and until at least Sunday afternoon.”

    This is a lie. Six paragraphs was written under the heading: As we can see this is completely Occult / New Age / Witchcraft (whatever you want to call it). This was in the original posting on Saturday.

    The previous paragraph is either true or it is not. Either you accept it as true or you have to make good on your threat of holding us accountable.

    Just so that you know, the Body of Christ will not lift a finger against me. You have my e-mail address that you may forward to your lawyer. Hoping to hear from her soon as your integrity is at stake.

  • Amanda

    Hand me the dunce cap, please. I now understand the satire in Dr. Guillaum Smit’s writing. Off course he is not against Christians mixing it up with the New Age. He said on Radio Kansel:

    Ongetwyfeld is dit ‘n winsmoment. Die Bybel self sê vir ons, in Romeine nogal, dat waar die mense nie die wet van Moses het nie, gaan God in hulle harte kyk want hulle skryf hulle eie wet in hulle harte neer en die konteks daar is baie duidelik dat dit gaan oor mense wat nie die openbaring van die Jode gekry het voordat hulle Christene geword het nie, of dan nou selfs doodgegaan het sonder blootstelling aan die Joodse geloof of die Christelike geloof nie. ‘n Mens kry die idee dat die Bybel self die uitspraak lewer dat God met die hele wêreld besig is, ook buite om die Christendom. Daarmee sê ek nie almal gaan hemel toe nie. Daarom sê ek ons moet daai vraag op die tafel sit dat God besig is met alles en met almal en dat ons die draers van die openbaring is, as gelowige Christene, maar spesifiek wil ek dan ook sê, die winsmoment is die feit dat ons die geleentheid het om in gesprek te tree met kultuuruitinge wat ons in staat stel om tot stilstand te kom sodat ons weer op ‘n vars manier kan hoor wat God vir ons wil sê. Jy het na die kontemplatiewe verwys. Die kontemplatiewe lê toevallig in die vroeë kerk . . . en kom uit die kloosterera uit en as ‘n mens daarop sou ingaan dan dink ek nie ‘n mens moet die baba met die badwater uitgooi nie. En ‘n mens moet veral ook bereid wees om, wanneer ‘n mens mense wil beoordeel, in gesprek met hulle te tree en na hulle te luister want om ‘n ding krities te ondersoek beteken nie dat jy net foute uitlig nie maar dat jy ook na die persoon se hart gaan kyk en na sy integriteit gaan kyk.

  • Amanda

    In Dr. Guilaume Smit’s blog post: “When is it permissable to lie in Jesus’ name?” he never answers the question directly.

  • Discerning the World

    Roger, you are nothing but a liar. There is a difference between NOT BEING ALLOWED TO COMMENT more than twice and having all comments deleted between which you were allowed to comment more than 50 times on this blog along with all your friends. Lest we forgot your ‘gang o’ funamergents’ and a possible 200+ comments combined. Or should we just forget your willingness to support that disgusting website “discernamentalist mafia” and poor Chad Holtz who had to take the fall for creating a false blog and using my name and making comments all over the place – pity when you hang with liars the can’t help but lie all the time even to their ‘friends’. They will take sides which ever way the wind blows.

    Everytime you post a comment to try help a ‘pal’ out you seem to catch yourself out and destroy everyone elses attempt to cover themselves. And each time I see a decrease in your IQ by a good 5 points per comment. This of course could be a good or bad thing depending on how high your IQ was to start off with ahah. I know you are a lot smarter than you make yourself out to be. You are not the only one reading this blog. Infact by not telling the truth you insult everyone who reads this blog and can see your comments all over the place.

    But then again the Emergent church teaches nothing but lies and you refuse to search for the truth. It’s like willingly hanging with liars and patting them on the back when you ‘think’ you are winning, you know…kinda like

    The Emerging South African Olympics and Julius Dilemma.

    Also, I think Guilluame is a big boy, he does not need your help covering up his lies- after all he is a Dr. In fact if I was him, which I am not (thank goodness) I would email you and ask you to keep quiet as you are NOT helping him one bit.

  • Discerning the World

    Amanda said,

    >> “By the way, Thomas is a real man.”

    Thank goodness otherwise we would have Julius Dilemma supporting us and that would just be so wrong in so many ways lol.

    To DR-GS:

    Based on your question, asking me if I am Amanda, Thomas, Cecilia etc, or are they me, i.e., we are actually 1 person with multiple usernames. Answer: No.

    But I can ask you now: Guilluame are you Roger by any chance? Or Nic Patton, or Iggy from Discernamentalist Mafia website, or Eugene, or Ryan Peter or Mark or…is it possible you are Stephan Joubert in disguise?

    This is indeed a case for the IEOF – International Emergent Olympics Federation. I hear there are many many tests one can do to substantiate if someone is who they say they are. It’s getting the results that are the real problem. When you do get them the results that is, you can just deny you got them lol. Anyhow…

    Commedy minute: (Brian McLaren just phoned, he asked me to relay this to you. “No, he is not DTW’. Rob Bell and the Dalai Lama say, ‘Ditto’. Desmond Tutu refuses to comment.)

  • Discerning the World

    Thank you C!!


    God protects HIS children ALWAYS – BORN AGAIN CHRISTIANS ARE THE BODY OF CHRIST. When times are bad HE is ALWAYS there for BRON AGAIN CHRISTIANS. All GLORY to HIM when we HUMBLE our sinful selves before HIM and REPENT. Everything we have in this life is ONLY because of HIM. No amount of working and studying can make you who you are inside. No amount of smooth words and covering up can cover up the wickedness in your heart. You can hug and pat eachother on the back till the cows come home. You can stand infront of a group and people and cry your heart out and call everyone there a brother or sister and then go home and abuse your wife and children.

    No amount of sloppy outside love and group hugs can hide what you really think and what’s really in your heart – Because these things will come out in the things you say AGAINST Jesus Christ. What you think is what is in your heart. If your heart is wicked your words will be wicked. If your words are wicked it’s because your heart is wicked!

    Without the SACRIFICE that Jesus Christ the Son of God made for us and the Blood HE spilt for US, YOU, WE, ME, ALL OF US, we would have NOTHING but everlasting death. When we believe by faith, believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, that he died on calvary, that he rose again, ACCEPT JESUS CHRIST, believe every word spoken in the Bible as being 100% true and FINAL. You will then and ONLY then RECEIVE the gift of SALVATION!!! That’s it!! Salvation! Nothing more.

    Is this not enough for you?????

    No you want more!!! You want to build your temple on earth!!!! Well build it, build your little temples on earth! For you want to be the king of your castle. You will use the name of Jesus Christ to get yourself a castle and then transcend to Godhood by yourself thereafter.

    But let them build their peace on earth, a man made peace, a man made saviour, a man made false Christ. I will continue to warn no matter what. Jesus says, ‘Seek and you will find’. I can’t make you want to SEEK and LOOK for the truth. But I will proglaim the gospel of slavation and repentance of sin through Jesus Christ and point you in the right direction. Just as someone once pointed me in the right direction – someone who loved Jesus Christ with all their heart. This person spoke to me about Jesus Christ for YEARS and YEARS and most times there were some serious arguments that broke out as I defended my beliefs at the time – but I finally woke up. I realised how lost I was and I had too make the EFFORT to find the WHOLE TRUTH and it can ONLY BE FOUND IN THE BIBLE.

    I have my TREASURE IN Jesus Christ – not on earth. My treasure is SALVATION ONLY. I want nothing else but to humble myself before my Lord and SAVIOUR Jesus Christ, I want nothing but to be a simple servant for him that will continue to warn others of the mass destruction that is close at hand. If only 1 person hears and then goes off to seek the truth and nothing but the truth, then my ‘great comission’ is done.

    If you DON’T CARE to want to know Jesus Christ, and you don’t care to want to love Jesus Christ. If you care more to love yourself, and make a kindgom for yourself on this earth then you will suffer the consequences for placing yourself before or on the same level as Jesus Christ.

    How can you ‘love your neighbour as yourself’ if you don’t love Jesus Christ and adhere to the Word of God 100%. ??????

    If Jesus Christ the Son of God is the source of true Godly love then what love do you speak about?, what is the source of your love? when all you do is TAKE AWAY the Word (Jesus Christ made Flesh) from the Word of God and ADD TOO the Word (Jesus Christ made Flesh). If you can’t even obey the Word of God how can you love your neighbour?? Impossible!

    You are EITHER FOR HIM OR AGAINST HIM. You make your own choices in life. I’ve made mine and that is Jesus Christ the Son of God and no matter WHAT HAPPENS I WILL NEVER back down.

    So, Guilluame – sue me. And then you can take on Nedbank too while you’re at it for ‘standing up for the truth’ (re:- lies in athletics SA scandal) and withdrawing their sponsorship from a bunch of crooks. LOL

  • Amanda

    DTW: “So, Guilluame – sue me.”

    Not so fast. He did not say that. In an earlier post he said that he was not considering going down that road. Now he warned that others might do it. I send him my e-mail address, because of his complaint that we hide our identities. [It is an emergent thing, as you very well know. Remember scary Nic Paton and Roger Saner wanting to know where you live?]

    No, Dr. Guillaum Smit’s charge is:

    The road along which you and your friends are travelling are destroying God’s work and enhancing that of the devil. You are not protecting the Christian faith. On the contrary. You are destroying it.

    His threat is:

    But know this: If you publish anything remotely untrue again, I and others like me will not hesitate to hold you accountable for your half-truths and twisted ramblings. We are part of the one and only body of Christ, and we will not stand on the sidelines any longer watching you actively destroy God’s work with your slanderous yapping.

    He did not specify what steps the ‘body of Christ’ are going to take in order to stop us from destroying the Christian faith. That is left to our imagination. He does indicate in no uncertain terms that he will follow through, though.

    DTW, you never, ever take a threat like that lightly. I would not want something untoward happening to you. Step up your security.

  • Discerning the World


    Actually, you know I didn’t see that. I did not read between the lines and took it that GS would not actually say something this threatening. You are right.

    What steps are THEY GOING TO TAKE as the ‘body of Christ’ to stop us? How are THEY going to hold me accountable for telling the truth? Who are these others he is dragging into the threats he is making towards me?

    So yes I take that as a serious threat. The last 2 days I was running around doing personal things and did not really pay attention to the comments.

    Hmmmm….thank you for highlighting that for me. I will certainly step up my security in every way possible. This includes paying greater attention to ‘men of god within the body of christ’ who are going to personally hold me accountable. I am sure legislation does not fall into the category of the ‘body of Christ’ so ones imagination is indeed left to think that other steps will be taken to stop me.

    Guallume would you like to come here and tell us that this is not the case:

    1) that your threat does not involve physical harm to me or any of my family in any way and cause me to worry for my safety?
    2) Please also tell us that your threat does not involve intimidation of any kind to me or my family in any way and cause me to worry for my safety?
    3) Please tell us that your threat does not include harassment of me or my family in any way that will cause me to worry for my safety?

    Please tell me that you only intend to kick me out of the ‘body of Christ’ in which case I can tell you that I am part of another ‘body of Christ’ who adhere to scripture 100%. So doing that is impossible. And thankfully God is the only one who can hold us accountable not any man or group of people. So we are not left with many other steps that can be taken to stop me.

    I am sure your congregation at NG Kerk Brackenfell-West feel very concerned that you can say something like this to a ‘member’ of the ‘body of Christ’? How secure do you think they feel right now that they dare not disagree with you for fear that others including you will not hesistate to hold them accountable for their right to freedom of speach.

  • Roger Saner

    Uh…Guilluame is not me. Sorry. Dunno where that one came from, DTW.

  • Roger Saner

    @Amanda: [It is an emergent thing, as you very well know. Remember scary Nic Paton and Roger Saner wanting to know where you live?] Seriously, you perceive that to be a threat against you? My goodness. And to think we were even talking about a CITY! I live in Cape Town – tell the world! Shame, it must be really hard knowing that Jesus has set you free from all fear and yet you choose to interpret another comments as threatening (as you’ve done in the past) and think that some other Christian has physically threatened violence against you, when all you’ve done is pissed them off because of your inflammatory attitudes which you somehow think is Christlike.

    Seriously. People. Grow up.

    I’ll speak for myself here, and I’m 100% sure Guilluame (and Nic and all other Emergents) will agree with me:

    1) that your threat does not involve physical harm to me or any of my family in any way and cause me to worry for my safety?
    Correct. There has never been a threat of physical harm, and nothing we will ever do will compromise your physical safety. In fact, if we were the last people alive on earth and you needed help from us, we would gladly give it – without strings.

    2) Please also tell us that your threat does not involve intimidation of any kind to me or my family in any way and cause me to worry for my safety?
    “Intimidate – frighten or overawe (someone), esp. in order to make them do what one wants.” Deborah, you would never something which you didn’t want to do, and no Emergent wants to force you into that. That applies to both you and your family. We have no wish to intimidate you or your family.

    3) Please tell us that your threat does not include harassment of me or my family in any way that will cause me to worry for my safety?
    Our only point of contact with you is online, and since you refuse to meet any of us in person we have no possibly way of knowing your real name, where you stay, what you do for a living, or what your family does. Even if we knew those things, we would confine our points of contact with you to online, knowing that you would not want to meet any of us in person. What would we benefit from harassing you? Would we even know how? I don’t – it’s been a while since I went to harassment school.

    However, we can’t guarantee that you won’t worry for your safety – because that is your choice. We are convinced that no matter what we say, no matter how much we try to show you that you have nothing to fear from us, you will delude yourself into thinking that threats of physical violence have been made against you and you are in grave danger from the evil Emergents. While nothing is further from the truth, that delusion is your choice and your right, and so feel free to barricade yourself and secure yourself as best as you can. It’s not like we’re going to be visiting you anytime soon anyway.

  • cecilia

    “C-E-C-I-L-I-A, I beseech you, tell me the truth. How many times have you commented on Thomas’ blog? Or am I you or you me or are we both D-T-W?”

    >>> gewoonlik hou ek my nie op met kaf van kinders nie! (how do you say that in English?). But I will answer this: if a person suffers from a stalking complex, he/she certainly DO NOT KNOW their position in Christ, therefore they are bound to always show themselves supreme, always questioning others (agterdogtig ook), always have the last say, always knows better/best, always be in control. Such a person certainly do not know the depth of being a servant or being humble … therefore they will always put/shift the blame to someone they deem lesser/more vulnerable. Amanda is “a sheep”, I am “a fish eagle”. don’t you know the difference? our writing style differs almost 90+%, unlike some critics who write in under different names but have the same style(s)… I have not commented on this said “Thomas”‘ blog, don’t have the time, maybe I must go and have a look… the emergents keep me busy on this blog… (lol) but I do read a lot of other blogs. the thing is, I give my attention 100% where I give it, I don’t just “throw a stone into the bush and look what comes out”. That’s bad manners….

    I would actually answer ‘yes’ on your question if we’re both DTW, we are indeed both Discerning The World, but we don’t look the same (thank heavens for that! – you wouldn’t have liked that Amanda…) why is this person trying to distract our focus? and that on such childish ways and plays…. my mentor would have said: mocking spirit…..
    and please, I am just Cecilia (without all the goodies inbetween!).

  • cecilia

    You nailed it on the head DTW, it is all about fear! see, the “susters kerke” ‘belong’ to ‘a mother’, which is the Roman Catholic Organization (they call themselves a church). and she will kill for the cause of her sake, as history well marks … which is all about control / power, which you can trace back to the persecution in Roman days, where you dare not stood against her system of idolatry and adultery. The pope speak, the ‘children’ obey. Likewise in most churches. You can differ, but not speak out. But there’s one control most of these don’t practice: -> self-control. but again, I think these childish argumentation is to side-track DTW from its original call…

  • Discerning the World


    If you read GS’d articles you will see where that came from. GS insinuated that I was Amanda, Cecilia, Thomas and others…So I just asked the same question back, and used you as an example. sorry.

  • Discerning the World

    By Gualliume Smit


    I am prepared to offer an apology. It’s address is the lady of the
    website at Discerning the World. The reason is the week-long anguish I
    observe she is experiencing because of my blogpost on Sunday. In my
    apology I do not wish to retract any of my views, however. It is
    rather based on the biblical commandment of love and the example of
    Jesus showing us to rather practice the ministry of reconciliation.

    Therefore, let me offer some perspective that, perhaps, could enable
    interested followers of the debate to see things in another light.

    When I first received the RSS-feed of DTW’s post on the Seven Chakras,
    some time on Saturday morning, it really did not include the paragraph
    on how these meditation techniques can destroy Christians. As she
    stated herself, that paragraph was initially placed after her table
    that explains the Chakras. Read like that (with the paragraph actually
    missing), DTW opened herself up to serious misunderstanding about the
    aim and purpose of her writing, especially as it gave no explanation
    of intent (remember, presented to me as her post was without this
    paragraph or any explanatory remarks).

    [Ok, I don’t care if you mis-read my article and chose to not see the rest of it – the point is it was there. You also know fully well that I am a born again Christian as every article I have written on this website claims this and I always point towards Jesus Christ the Son of God for Salvation by Repentance of Sin.
    You don’t need to retract anything GS. Just as I will not retract that you are still lying and when you stop lying one day and just say ‘I am sorry it as there all the time I just didn’t scroll down’ I will retract with a sincere genuine Christian apology. Until then what I have written is nothing but the truth and the whole truth. You filed this article under ‘fundamentalism’ – Not nice. Anyhow…]

    I have to admit, I was intentional in my sarcasm. The saying goes: if
    you live in a glass house, don’t throw stones. I am always left with
    an uneasy sort of disgust when I read the posts she and her
    contemporaries produce. Their intention is the destruction of the
    ministries of Godly men and women (I know, DTW and the others don’t
    see it that way). They literally interpret the Bible differently than
    I and perhaps 90% of the rest of Christianity do. Moreover, they
    present themselves as protectors of the faith and therefore feel bound
    to attack the views and integrity of those persons with which they
    disagree. That actually makes any fruitful discussion with them
    totally impossible. All, then, that is left, is sarcasm or a total
    ignoring of these petty writings.

    [Nope GS you are intentionally destorying and dividing the body of Christ through allowing doctrines of demons to enter the church. Who preaches these new doctrines? Well the pastor of course. You are a wolf in a very badly made sheeps outfit. If you just take off that outfit and come clean that you want sooooo desperately to incorporate all religions into your preaching because they all have something that appeals to you. Come clean GS that the bible does not quite cut it anymore for you because we are in a New Age where things change, and the bible just does not hold all the answers anymore. Many pastors are coming clean which I consider HONESTY (not in a Christian context of course) but alteast they are no longer lying to their congregation. Their congregation now has the choice to stay and agree with thei ‘new’ Christianity or they can leave (because they are born again christians) and seek genuine gospel teaching elsewhere. Don’t worry GS your wallet will not get smaller, for there are way more people out there seeking the new false-Christ becuase he appeals to ones sinful life. You church will grow and be filled with new members all willing to rock on for Jesus, and do all sorts of weird and wonderful so called ‘godly’ creeds, ceremonies and rituals to be ONE.]

    I chose the former in approaching her “Chakras-post.” It was a bit
    childish of me and I actually stooped to the level of discourse with
    which DTW is conducting herself.

    [Oh my….]

    But my true apology is this. Apparently, DTW’s post bumped into
    technical difficulties of which she was unaware. She said herself that
    she experienced difficulties with the spacing of that long table in
    her post. It can therefore be possible that the missing paragraph only
    got unmissed when she moved it up higher in her post. For an outsider,
    however, at that stage, it appeared completely missing. In a sense I
    actually helped her as she wouldn’t have known her posting got out
    weird. Or perhaps not. Somebody else would have picked it up. Thus it
    is most probably a technical glitch that seems to have created a
    misunderstanding. My choice to point out the seeming flaw in the
    argument, and the implications it had on her integrity, was
    ill-conceived. But let God be the judge of whether it really was a

    [No GS, the 6 long paragraphs were at the bottom all the time, there is solid evidence/proof of this in the comments section above here I attached 3 emails (.pdf) people received showing that paragraphs were there at the bottom of the table. Only after you wrote your article did I then move it higher. I moved it to the top of the table (just for you) and this is hen the table itseld got messed up. So again for the umpteenth time- It was there all the time. Let God be the judge on your constant attempts of twisting the truth so that you do not have to actually render a genuine apology to me.]

    Unfortunately, I stand by my views on her way of handling things. I
    stand by my observation that she needs to be held accountable for the
    destruction her opions cause.

    For clarity: when I speak of the body of Christ I mean the sum total
    of all Christians, regardless of their denominational affinity or
    geography. DTW is writing on the internet. It is open to all. She is
    therefore subject to the scrutiny of all Christians and their agreeing
    or disagreeing with her. Being held accountable in this sense
    therefore means to be subject to critical enquiry on her views and
    people opposing her views with different arguments. DTW is also
    supposed to be part of a geographical church community. If she
    conducted herself in a way that caused them to act on her misconduct,
    then she should submit herself to that authority. That is how the
    Bible teaches on the matter. But I doubt her church family disgrees
    with her views. Let God also be the judge of that.

    [No GS, there are 2 types of Christians in the world today. Those who call themselves Christians – they have a label sown to their jackets to make people perceive they are Christian but they follow all sorts of non Biblical teachings – they too believe they belong to a ‘body of Christ’. Then we have genuine Christians who adhere to the word of God and the word of God only, these people can be anywhere around the world, sparcely seperated from one another, meeting together on sundays at eachothers home for genuine christian fellowship (you know the ones you call ‘cults’). Never the less. The one group speaks about a Christ but it’s not Jesus Christ the Son of God – but ANOTHER FAKE Christ. One that Jesus Christ himself spoke about that would pounce upon the world and deceive, blind men with spiritual blindless and lead them off on a course destined for nothing but destruction. These Christians call themselves Christians, but they preach things that are not in the Word of God. They have new ideas of how things need to be in this ‘new world’ of ours – and these ideas oppose the ones that Jesus Christ the Son of God WARNED us about CONSTANTLY.

    So yes, you do belong to a body of ‘Christ’ but it’s not my Jesus Christ, King of Kings, Lord of Lords, Mosy High, All Powerful, Seated at the right hand of our Heavenly father waiting to decend on this world and JUDGE mankind and their wicked ways. I belong to the true body of Christ which is SPIRITIAL and the prerequisite for this to be genuinely SAVED, believing that Jesus Christ died for our sin, that his blood washes us spotless that we can be presented before God. We are immediately filled with God’s Holy Spirit who then is our councellor and comforter and HE guides us into ALL truth ALL the time. We do not need men to teach us, we do not need creeds, ceremonies and rituals when WE have Jesus Christ. That is of course if you are truly saved. When one stuggles to understand the Word of God it is because there is no Holy Spirit for He is the interpreter of Scripture when we read it.

    This is why men of this world end up having to make their own dialogue as to what scripture means because they do not understand and never will without the Holy Spirit. There is only ONE meaning to the word of God and every verse in Scripture will always point to Jesus Christ, Repentance of Sin and Salvation. Nothing else. Short, sweet and to the point. But noooo, man has to make it difficult, it can’t be that easy. Have to throw in some Simony somewhere to make it more appealing.

    Genuine Repentance of Sin through Jesus Christ the Son of God who died the most horrific death that we may be saved, believe with all your heart and soul and love Jesus with every little bit of love your little human heart can muster? Is that it? The infilling of the Holy Spirit – that gentle voice who convicts you when you do wrong, that gentle whisper who convicts you that you are not pleasing God one bit through you stubborness to follow after wickedness. That horrible feeling that comes over you when you know fully well that you are slapping Jesus Christ through the face by listening to men who preach blasphemous teachings that all faiths are compatilbe and that Jesus Christ the Son of God can mix and mingle with idols!

    It’s the most wonderful feeling to know you are born again!!! That I spent my days in God’s presence through Jesus Christ and His Holy Spirit who comforts me. No burdons, no if’s or buts, just the peace and joy that Jesus Christ the Son of God brings into my life. Do you have the GS? Or are you burdoned, and angry?

    I do not need to go and read scritpure to be reminded that we are to love. Genuine love that is. Not a fake put on love where you can say sorry and not say sorry at the same time. You know very well that I am a born again Christian. You read my previous articles before this one where I stated this clearly. But you try so hard to hide and make excuses. Why? There is no darkness in Jesus Christ. He is the way, the truth and the life. Get rid of the darkness that covers you and weighs you down and just come before Jesus Christ the Son of God and say you are sorry.

    In the mean time, she must accept that other Christians will call her
    to task on the heresies she is expounding through public discourse.
    This is the point: Unfortunately, DTW, you do not hold the truth
    alone. As Ephesians 4 teaches, we are all one body, serving one God.
    If you, therefore, argue that I and the other persons you so
    frequently attack, are serving another God than the One you are
    serving, you are actually removing yourself from the community God
    intended. There is only one God and He made Himself known through
    Jesus. And I serve that God and that God alone. In this body of
    Christ, people may differ in opinion. They may interpret Scripture
    from different angles and speak about it. There isn’t one infallible
    truth derived from the Bible that needs to be universally accepted –
    although sometimes we all wish it could be the case.

    [See above what I wrote again. You can’t call me to task on anything. God is who calls me to task to warn others not to be caught in lies. Only the Holy Spirit can interpret scritpure for men. If you do not have the Holy Spirit abiding in you, you will interpret scriptrue any angle you wish and it will be incorrect – Do you want to be able to hear the TRUTH straight from God’s Spirit? Accept Jesus Christ into your life GS. Be born again and then you wont need a universally accepted bible that has been adapted to suit mankinds FAILURE to understand the WORD OF GOD because it is fool proof. Only the people of this world who do not understand the Word of God would add too or take away from scripture which God commands us NOT TO DO. It also proves that when one does add to or take away that there is no Holy Spirit in that persons life for if he did, he would UNDERSTAND]

    All is interpretation. Even your views are clouded by the filters of
    legalism and propositional theology, being interpretations of what God
    really meant when He allowed the Bible to be written. You need to
    practice some humility in your approach.

    [Humility when it comes to mankinds salvation? You can’t be serious? So leave and let be – don’t preach, don’t mention sin, dare not mention repentance. They are about to walk over the cliff – instead of warning them (which will just upset them all) just give them a first aid kid and hope that when they hit the bottom they are still alive to try patch themselves up? What I have written above, does that offend you? The Holy Spirit is not full of legalism and propositions. He is God. God does give you a choice though to choose Him and His Holy Spirit who leads you to understand His word correctly, or you can choose another means of approach and lead no where, except into a spiders web of occult teaching of different degrees.

    My “admonishment” is therefore not meant to be understood that a hit
    squad of some sort will come and smash your house’s windows or break
    your legs. That stuff belongs to the mafia (and even they profess to
    serve God!). My admonishment is that you should understand that the
    people who disagree with your views or hold other views that make you
    feel uneasy, actually are also Christians. You cannot go around
    attacking them by trying to destroy their professional integrity and
    then expect all and sundry to believe you.

    [No, genuine Christians do NOT make genuine Christians feel uneasy. People who profess some form of Christianity that follows another Christ – this Christ is out to seek and destroy are the ones who will most definitely make genuine Christians feel uneasy. As you said, “That stuff belongs to the mafia (and even they profess to
    serve God!). And even as these Mafia profess God, they will make you feel uneasy if they stepped into your presence. So it’s clear that professing God does not make one a Christian. Making threats of any kind to make another uneasy is not of God either.]

    You actually are exposing yourself to valid criticism. Eventually this
    can lead to the public rejection of your own credibility if you
    continue to constantly harper on the same tune in the same way. People
    will just stop reading your blog, as I am henceforth going to do.

    [Nope, people wont stop reading this blog, for I speak the truth and I warn and stand up for the gospel of Jesus Christ – This is God’s blog, not mine. And as He directs me to write I will write and as He directs those to come and read what I have written they will come. I do not save people. Jesus Christ saves people, if they care to want to know Him and love Him. If you want to stop, then stop. You ultimately make all your own choices.]

    Finally, your emotional reactions over the past week demonstrated to
    me how damaging this way of discourse actually can become. It doesn’t
    belong in the church. We must not participate in such behaviour.

    [No, false teaching does not belong in the church and fighting the good fight for the truth is expected by God. God does not appreaciate the wickedness you run after]


    When you humble yourself before God and repent of all things you have done in your life, of all the things and evil teachings you have been following, when you ask for forgiveness for all the people you have led astray with this new one world faith – when you change your ways and make a concious decision to serve Jesus Christ the Son of God and only HIM. When you get behind your pulpit and sob your heart out before your congregation that you have made the most horrendus of mistakes and repent before them and correct the errors you have been teaching them. Saying sorry and asking for forgiveness is the hard part. Jesus Christ forgives immediately.

    So GS, don’t apologise to me. You have God looking down at you or worse turning away from you and you need to apologise to HIM. The creator of this earth. The one who created you. The one who can and will discard you into everlasting fire for following after Satan and his hords. What kind of love has been stored up in your heart? Love to hate Jesus Christ and His saints or a Love to Love Jesus Christ with all your heart and soul where you spend most of your days crying before His feet that He saved you, but there was a long time where you rejected Him.]

  • cecilia

    ek kan amper nie glo dat GS homself so vasspin in sy eie leuens nie! dis ‘n klad op die naam van geestelike leiers. dis nooit te laat om sonder ‘n hengse lange verdoeselings verduideliking, net bloot te sê ‘jammer’ nie. maar dan, dit sal vir hierdie persoon ‘vernederend’ wees, en hoe gaan “sy” gemeente dan nog kan opkyk na hom? die goeie nuus is, meeste mense kry meer respek en agting vir ‘n leier wat kan erken dat hy/sy fouteer het. anders is dit bloot manipulasie deur vrees wat mense laat stilbly.
    elke blogger het sy/haar eie manier van reageer op kommentare op sy/haar blog. waarom hammer op DTW se manier van doen? dis tog DTW se blog, en verleen DTW die volste reg om op eie manier te reageer… dit sal hartseer wees as leiers begin om hul volgelinge te manipuleer om in te skryf na blogs wat na hul mening, dinge verkeerd doen/hanteer. cecilia

  • Amanda

    Chris Rosebrough writes at Extreme Theology:

    Dedicated to the proclamation and defense of the most extreme religious claim of all time; that Jesus of Nazareth IS the ONE TRUE God in human flesh, He died for the sins of the world, rose victorious from the grave and is coming again to judge both the living and the dead.

    This Could Have Been Written Today

    I found a quote today during my theological research that stopped me in my tracks. The quote was written during the Fundamentalist-Modernist controversy in the Presbyterian Church during the 1920’s. But this quote literally could have been written today regarding the current battle among Confessional Christians of the Reformation and Post-Modern Liberals aka Emergents. Here’s the quote:

    “The Radicals [Modernist Liberals] are set on substituting ‘evolution’ for creation, ‘the principle animating the cosmos’ for the living God, consciousness of the individual for the authority of the Bible, reason for revelation, sight for faith, ‘social service,’ for salvation, reform for regeneration, the priest for the prophet, ecclesiasticism for evangelism, the human Jesus for the divine Christ, a man-made ‘ideal society’ for the divinely promised kingdom of God, and humanitarian efforts in this poor world for an eternity of joy in God’s bright home.” – The Fundamentalist, Vol. II, No. 1

    This battle is still raging today.

    As much as the Emergents like to claim they are different than Modernists it is painfully clear that they champion many of the exact same heresies as their Modernist forebears.

    Today’s Post-Modern Liberals, Emergents:

    1. Question and / or Deny the Inerrancy of the Scriptures

    2. Question and / or Deny the Virgin Birth and by extension call the deity of Jesus into question.

    3. Openly mock and repudiate the Penal Substitutionary atonement

    4. Openly challenge salvation by grace alone through faith alone by Christ’s work alone.

    5. Question and / or Deny Christ’s Physical Return in Chronos Time to Judge the Living and the Dead

    6. Question and / or Deny God’s Eternal and Conscious Punishment of the Wicked (Hell)

    May I add:

    7. They embrace and promote the New Age.

  • Roger Saner

    DTW wrote: “If you read GS’d articles you will see where that came from. GS insinuated that I was Amanda, Cecilia, Thomas and others…So I just asked the same doff question back.”

    Ah, thanks – I’d missed that.

    @Amanda, I was going to respond to something you’d written to me, but it seems your comment got deleted. Doh!

  • AdMo

    Hi Roger

    Yes, Amanda asked that it be deleted. I am sure she will explain why.

  • Amanda

    Hi Roger

    All that I should have said, was that Nic said:

    Where do you live and what is your name?

    And that Jesus Christ warned us:

    “Behold, I am sending you out as sheep in the midst of wolves, so be wise as serpents and innocent as doves.
    (Matthew 10:16)

    Is that what you wanted to respond to?

    By the way, thank you for the feedback in your previous comment to me. That is far more helpful than the usual emergent “bless you”.

    Now, I have a question for you. Do you think that, in order to remain true to the gospel they preach that emergents should sell their churches and feed the poor?

  • Roger Saner

    @AdMo: thanks for the explanation :)

    @Amanda: yes, indeed Nic did say that – him and I are still confused as to how such a question is interpreted as threatening (even though we respect DTW’s request for us to not ask it again). That’s not a question which is looking for a home address (and no-one should be giving out their home address online anyway) but rather a general location, whether “South Africa” or “Joburg” or “Cape Town” or whatever. The purpose of the question was to see if doing coffee with the person is possible – as far as Nic and I are concerned, when serious criticism comes up against us, we hope to meet with the person concerned (this has happened in the past with Stephen Murray, a student at George Whitfield Seminary in Cape Town – both Nic and I have met with him on different occasions, and in my case with Tim Cantrell, a Baptist pastor who hosted a seminar at his church a few years back on why Emergents have it all wrong, and also wrote an article in Today Magazine and said I’d be happy to meet with him in person – with no throwing of vegetables!).

    Of course, this question was before DTW made it clear that she finds any requests for location to be threatening, and will never meet in person with anyone with whom she differs.

    re: Matthew 10:16 – no, that’s not what I wanted to respond to. You called me a liar based on comments on this post, and I was going to respond to that, but you asked for your comment to be deleted, so I won’t respond (I only bring that up because you asked – I wouldn’t have mentioned it otherwise).

    I’m glad my feedback in my previous comment was helpful to you. I’m not sure why – I thought I was going to be rapped over the knuckles for using bad language and thought that comment would probably be deleted – so I was kinda surprised to see it go through.

    You ask, “Do you think that, in order to remain true to the gospel they preach that emergents should sell their churches and feed the poor?” No, I don’t.

  • Roger Saner

    @Amanda: to expand slightly on that last comment (I don’t want to hijack this thread, but am happy to keep writing if this is helpful), I’m not uncritical of what some Emergents are saying. Some are anti-institutional, and think the institution of the church is fundamentally opposed to God, and should be immediately disbanded. I think that’s a rather naive position which falls into “Old = bad, New = good” and of course, “New” is what we say it is, and of course we’re right, so everyone else is wrong and just listen to us, who only now, for the first time in 2000 years understands what the Bible is truly saying…blah blah blah.

    Again, I think that’s rather naive and reactionary.

  • Pooh Bear

    Luke 4:18, “The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind..”

    Amanda, can you explain why this verse emphasizes preaching the gospel to the poor?

  • Discerning the World

    Pooh Bear

    PREACHING the gospel to the poor, not FEEDING the poor. Two different things. HEAL the brokenhearted by PREACHING the GOSPLE OF JESUS CHRIST that they will repent and receive SALVATION, PREACH the gospel (repentance and salvation) to the captives (those who are NOT SAVED) that they may be set FREE (SALVATION) and SEEING the TRUTH, JESUS is the LIGHT in the DARKNESS. THE BLIND WILL SEE once SAVED.

    Ok, I see Amanda answered, asking how you define the gospel? That’s a good question.

  • Amanda

    Pooh Bear

    Amanda, can you explain why this verse emphasizes preaching the gospel to the poor?

    Sure. First tell how do you define the gospel? I just want to make sure that we are talking about the same thing.

  • Discerning the World

    >> and will never meet in person with anyone with whom she differs.

    Dude, I don’t even meet with people I agree with, so really… move on, the subtle sarcasim is not funny anymore – it was – but not anymore. As of last night I have a broken ‘w’ key on my keyboard (hich I need to press like 20 times before it orks) so this means I have to leave my house and go out into the big ide orld to get it fixed. I recently sat in a room filled ith pro-emergent and I alked out alive. Being asked over and over and over again ‘hat is your name and here do you live’ is not considered a friendly invitation – especially hen suddenly your blog and internet ‘name’ is stolen. Anyho, shall e move on? I moved on already…i’m aiting for you to catch up :)

    And I think throing vegetables is completely going against the “Netork of Earthkeeping Christian Communities in South Africa (NECCSA).” here all churches in South Africa are going to be asked to participate in creating earthkeeping ministries! Article coming soon to a DT blog near you.

    This W key is going to be a problem today.

  • Roger Saner

    Sorry about that broken “w” key, DT – I’ve had that before and used copy/paste to much good effect :)

    >the subtle sarcasim is not funny anymore – it was – but not anymore.
    Um – I wasn’t being sarcastic or ironic – I thought you’d made it clear that you’d reject any invitation for coffee with someone with whom you differ. Did I misunderstand you?

    Yes, I’ve moved on from the invitations to coffee a few months back already – I brought it up here again in the context of you finding an interaction with Guillaume threatening (incidentally, if he – or anyone else – threatens you with physical harm I’ll be the first to stand up against that. That has no place amongst Christians).

    In terms of your blog being “stolen” – I thought you of all people would understand satire? Now, when you’re google’d, that blog comes up too – which is the same method you use to promote this blog (so when people google someone you’ve “discerned” (is that the right verb?) they end up here).

    I think NECCSA would be all for throwing vegetables – it creates more exposure for them! I wonder what their logo is?

  • Amanda

    Hi Roger

    Sorry for the delay in answering you. It is a little hard to know where to start.

    I withdrew my comment, because I could have made my point without an “inflammatory attitude.” My point was that you lied on this thread and therefore your word on our safety is meaningless. If you want me elaborate so that you can have the opportunity to defend yourself, I will do so.

    When I warned DTW not to take a threat lightly, I was not referring to Rev. Giullaume Smit’s complaint that our details are not on the net, but to the clear threat that I quoted in my comment. You said:

    Shame, it must be really hard knowing that Jesus has set you free from all fear and yet you choose to interpret another comments as threatening

    I did not choose to interpret Rev. Guilaume Smit’s comment as threatening. He clearly stated it. Fear, Roger? Then why would I voluntarily provide him with my e-mail address? Being cautious is not the same as being afraid.

    Roger, the real problem in this ‘conversation’ is that emergents are prepared to sacrifice truth in favour of relationships and emotions, and Christians are not. It is like sheep and coffee mugs trying to converse.

    We are warning those that still can be saved against the emerging church. Our problem is not that you have created your own religion. You are free to do so. Our problem is that you call yourself by our name, Christian, and that you are spreading your religion in the church. In fact you have taken over the church and as a Christian I am deeply ashamed that we have allowed this to happen. I am only vaguely interested to see what you are going to do with my inheritance, but I do care about the people who blindly follow and so do not get to hear the Gospel preached.

    Does this answer your questions or should I try again? Your thoughts?

    I wonder what their logo is?

    I don’t know, but the “Climate Change A Challenge to the Churches in South Africa” published by the South African Council of Churches has a map of South Africa in the rainbow colours and a coiled serpent. [It could also have been a cyclone if it coiled in a clockwise direction, not so?]

  • Roger Saner

    @Amanda wrote: “My point was that you lied on this thread and therefore your word on our safety is meaningless. If you want me elaborate so that you can have the opportunity to defend yourself, I will do so.” Yes, let’s start there. You say I lied on this thread, I say I didn’t. Please lay out the case for my lie so I can respond.

  • Pooh Bear

    So are you saying that in the context of this verse, “the poor” refers to those who are spiritually poor?

    I don’t see how my understanding of the Gospel has any bearing on you being able to answer the question. But I will if you like: Gospel = life, True Life, found in Jesus Christ! Will you give me your definition (if it differs)?

  • Discerning the World

    Poor Bear

    >> So are you saying that in the context of this verse, “the poor” refers to those who are spiritually poor?

    Yes, what’s the point of feeding someone bread to give them life on earth but they die a spiritual death because they were not given spiritual bread. That’s the entire point of a false gospel vs the real Gospel found in Jesus Christ.

    Do you gather up your treasure here on earth or do you want to be with Jesus Christ in the afterlife?
    Do you think genuine Christians don’t actually care about the well being of people here and now on earth just because where you will spend eternity (that means forever) is actually more important?
    Do you think your afterlife will be shorter than your one here on earth?
    Where do you think you are going to go after you die? Come back here? Rotated like re-incarnation.

    And yeah I really do want you to answer the above questions…

    Tell me what you interpret this verse to mean and believe me there is only 1 meaning and there are no catches. It’s straight forward understanding. No mystical hidden meanings attached.

    Matthew 18:8
    Jesus said: 8 “If your hand or your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off and throw it from you; it is better for you to enter life crippled or lame, than to have two hands or two feet and be cast into the eternal fire.”

    And then another 2 times in Matthew 18:8 and Mark 9:43.

    Notice that everything in the Bible is mentioned more than once. Jesus KNEW because HE IS GOD that there will be many who will choose to try change what He said. So He said it more than ones just to make sure they ‘get it’. But yet, they still don’t get it. BECAUSE they choose not too – they want it their way instead.

    One more question, if we are both Christian, both serve the same Jesus Christ – why do we differ on the gospel? Think about this. You mentioned in a previous comment on another article that I was dis-connected and basically do not think like the ‘new world/age’ Christian. Then in another comment you insisted we both belong to the same body of Christ.

    I know who my Father is and I know who Jesus Christ is. And I know that this new age Christian ‘gospel’ is NOT the gospel that Jesus Christ told the disciples too spread to the nations and it’s NOT the gospel that Jesus Christ spoke when He was walking on earth and gave His life for and it’s NOT what it written in the Word of God – God’s writing through simple men. God’s Word.

    You told me you you are not New Age and I said that even though you say you are not, you speak exactly like they do. Your thinking is in the exact same direction as them. And by saying that you don’t see how your understanding of the Gospel has any bearing on you being able to answer the question” makes it very clear that you do not understand what you are saying because if you did you would be able to answer this question. There is ONLY 1 answer not multiple ones.

    And if you can’t answer the question…if I was you that is, which I am not, but I myself would be worried and go find out why I can’t answer a simple question like this great detail I might add. Your answer and you know this is not a good one. God knows your heart Poor Bear.

    If you are seeking the Truth in all this world wide mess, I really really suggest you start seeking Jesus Christ in earnest. Going around feeding the poor and digging wells in Africa is not going to help anyone. Yes it looks great on earth and everyone thinks you are just super loving and so kind and don’t get me wrong, YES it’s wonderful to help people, it’s Christ like to help people (genuine Holy Spirit inspired love). But when you are doing it for the wrong religion, in the wrong religion then…I fail to understand why you even bother to feed them.

    And I am not saying you actually go around feeding the poor I am using examples here that will apply to you and to everyone else reading this comment.

    Remember this: unbelievers feed the poor too.

  • Amanda

    Pooh Bear

    Gospel = life, True Life, found in Jesus Christ!

    Are you talking about the abundant life? Is it possible to have ‘True Life’ and remain dirt poor all your life?
    The Bible defines the Gospel in 1 Corinthians 15:1-8:

    Now I would remind you, brothers, of the gospel I preached to you, which you received, in which you stand, and by which you are being saved, if you hold fast to the word I preached to you–unless you believed in vain. For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received: that Christ died for our sins in accordance with the Scriptures, that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day in accordance with the Scriptures, and that he appeared to Cephas, then to the twelve. Then he appeared to more than five hundred brothers at one time, most of whom are still alive, though some have fallen asleep. Then he appeared to James, then to all the apostles. Last of all, as to one untimely born, he appeared also to me.

    The mission of the church is to proclaim repentance and the forgiveness of sins in Jesus Christ’s name to all nations. Luke 24:47

    There is Good News:

    And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, so must the Son of Man be lifted up, that whoever believes in him may have eternal life. “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
    (John 3:14-17)

    And there is bad news:

    Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God. And this is the judgment: the light has come into the world, and people loved the darkness rather than the light because their works were evil. For everyone who does wicked things hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his works should be exposed.
    (John 3:18-20)

    If we can agree on this, then I will go back to Luk 4:18.

  • Amanda

    Hi Roger.

    1. Dr. Guilluame Smit wrote:

    You refuse to publish the comments of people opposing your views, choosing instead to only publish those of the people who strengthen your own views

    You said:

    Many of my comments have been deleted off this blog (although most of them haven’t).

    You claim:

    This lends some credibility to Guillaume’s claim

    No, it does not. It proofs his claim to be false.

    2. You wrote:

    And to think we were even talking about a CITY!

    No, you were not. Nic asked:

    What is your name and where do you live?

    You also said:

    no-one should be giving out their home address online anyway

    I agree! That is why that question, in the middle of a heated debate and without the clarifying remarks, deserved the red flag. How about, in stead of trying to rewrite it, you acknowledge that the question was out of line and then we move on?

  • AdMo

    Roger, it would appear your friend was Disceramentalist Mafia is at it again. We have discussed the issues as hand regarding your previous engagements on this website, along with others you associate with and we have decided to call it a day for you on this blog. We thank you for your massive input and exposure of what the Emergent Church believes and how they intimidate born again Christians which means they insult the one who they believe in, Jesus Christ the Son of God.

    We request you send Graeme Codrington to dialogue with us from your website, we sit here with bated breath wondering if he is going to expose the Emergent Church even more. So far he has written some excellent articles on how to go against the scripture and ignore God’s Word in every way possible. We will be looking at these shortly especially the one on homosexuality “Homosexuality is ‘natural”

    Homosexuality is ‘natural’ by Graeme Codrington

    Previously on this blog, I have looked at the various Biblical references to homosexuality. The most compelling argument in the Bible against homosexual behaviour is found in Romans 1. Those who condemn homosexuality find their strongest argument in the fact that it is “para phusin” – “against nature”.

    This phrase is contested, of course (a lot more contested than most preachers ever acknowledge when they preach against homosexuality). According to Paul, for example, it is also against nature for men to have long hair! In the context of Romans 1, there is also contention in how to translate the context. Paul is referring to people inflamed by lust, who give up their natural instincts and pursue same sex encounters without love and “against nature”.

    One of the foundations of this argument has always been that we don’t see homosexual activity in animals. But this is not true. Recent research indicates that thousands of animal species exhibit homosexual behaviour. Read one hews release here and an older medical report here. This includes animals as “advanced” as dolphins, deer, lions, swans, and primates. And it is not “aberrant” behaviour, but natural in response to a variety of circumstances, including overpopulation (as humans are experiencing in most countries around the world), gender imbalances (as China is now experiencing with 40 million more young men than women), and threats to societal harmony.

    One of the most interesting animals is black swans, where male homosexual swans will often “kidnap” a cygnet and raise it. Swans, of course, are monogomous throughout their lives. Even more interesting is that the research shows that animals raised by homosexual or lesbian parents fair better on average than those raised by a male-female couple.

    This is not proof that God designed homosexuality, of course. Nor is it proof that humans are allowed to be homosexual. But, it does destroy a major argument that people who want to stand against homosexuality have used in the past. That argument is no longer available to them.

    And we just love the ‘blackslider’ username that automatically gets filled out for your visitors in the comments section. Two thumbs up for a great welcome, we recommend you keep it there.

  • Roger Saner

    AdMo – Approval based on Amanda’s question:

    Thanks for laying out in detail your argument, Amanda. Let me respond bit by bit.

    1. Of course Guillaume’s claim of DTW deleting all dissenting voices is false. I’m a dissenting voice, most of my comments are published, ergo DTW does not publish only those people who strengthen her views.

    What I said is that:

    Many of my comments have been deleted off this blog (although most of them haven’t).

    I followed up with:

    This lends some credibility to Guillaume’s claim

    This is correct logically – Guillaume’s has some credibility, because some of my comments (and comments from other dissenting voices) have been deleted. DTW deletes some comments, and they’re only from people who have dissenting voices. Where is this logically incorrect?

    2. I wrote:

    And to think we were even talking about a CITY!

    You wrote,

    No, you were not.

    I say, Yes we were! If you really like, go and find previous conversations between Nic and me and others online, say Linda or Cori or Cobus or Arthur or Bryan or Peter or Sean…on and elsewhere, where that request has always been in the context of a city. It’d be really weird if someone responded with a street address to that request anyway!

    Still, I can see why you though that was threatening, as you seem to believe that Emergents will stop at nothing, even arriving un-announced and uninvited to someone’s house with the express purpose of intimidating them. This is, was, and never will be our intention.

    Based on this irrational fear of yours, I acknowledge that our question was out of line. If we’d know earlier you were afraid of us, no-one would’ve asked that question.

    3. Amanda wrote,

    My point was that you lied on this thread and therefore your word on our safety is meaningless. If you want me elaborate so that you can have the opportunity to defend yourself, I will do so.

    I’m waiting for you to elaborate and lay out the argument as to where I lied on this thread. That’s what your comment was supposed to be about, but you haven’t even brought up the charge of my lying! So far, all you’ve done is claim that I’m employed some incorrect logic, and dispute that Nic and I were talking about a city. No sniff of lying yet. At best, if you end up winning this little exchange, you’ll prove that I can’t think too straight and that I like threatening people for the fun of it. But I can’t see, by your response, where you’re accusing me of lying?

    Again, I write the same thing:

    You say I lied on this thread, I say I didn’t. Please lay out the case for my lie so I can respond.

  • Roger Saner

    AdMo wrote:

    we have decided to call it a day for you on this blog.

    Ok AdMo, I’ll respect your wishes – this will be my last comment on this blog. I only ask that you either publish my previous comment or send it to Amanda, because she asked for the right to lay out a certain argument and I think she’d appreciate my reply.

    Re: the Disceramentalist Mafia – I don’t know who that is and I don’t even follow that blog, but I’ll go and check it out and see what they’re up to.

    As for Graeme, he usually responds to comments on FutureChurch, so feel free to write there. So far I haven’t felt the need to moderate comments there – I hope to keep it that way.

    I’m sorry to hear that people here feel intimidated by Emergent Christians. I’ve tried my best to show that this is not that case, that I would be the first to stand up for Amanda and Deborah if they were in any way physically threatened by anyone. If that’s not good enough, well, I can’t do more than that.


  • Pooh Bear

    I’ve spent a lot of time in rural areas, working with orphans, praying for AIDS victims on their deathbeds, and trying to bring love and light where possible. One of the most amazing things I’ve seen is a man saying that his body is not well but his spirit is alive because of Jesus Christ… and a month later he died!!

    Far be it from preaching a False/New-Age gospel, we emphasize to these people that they need Jesus and that he died for them. But what frustrates me is when people come in for a week, get all the kids to play some games and then finish off with an alter call, where they rack up their “salvations” count so they can report back to their home churches on their success!!

    I don’t think that’s the kind of discipleship Jesus was talking about. To really make an impact in the lives of the poor, it involves helping them first (and concurrently) with their physical plight. But that doesn’t mean we should just go and dig wells just so that we have an inroad to preach to them so that we can offer them their “ticket to heaven”. I’m saying the Gospel involves all of it – it’s a holistic view of the body, the soul, the spirit, the community and life! It’s not New Age, it’s just a bigger, more complete, view of what Jesus came to bring us.

    Do you have any problem with that?

  • Pooh Bear

    AdMo – Deleted comment, answers been supplied to your questions.

  • Discerning the World

    Ok Pooh Bear

    I can clearly see you speak a different kind of Gospel here. Your first priority is good works and then preaching of your so called salvation. Not the other way around. You first do the ‘signs and wonders’ so to say and then you say you present them with the gospel. Instead of presenting them with the gospel – and then those that choose to hear get SAVED FIRST.

    A man on his death bed saying his spirit is alive because of Jesus Christ means absolutely nothing. You have NO idea what was in that mans heart and you have NO idea if he genuinely was repentant of his sinful life. Only God knows.

    it’s a holistic view of the body, the soul, the spirit, the community and life?

    Have you read any new age magazines lately? You sound like them – Wake up.

    I was very very clear in my last comment to you and you refuse to answer because you don’t understand the Gospel of Jesus Christ. REPENT FIRST.

    Righty. I am moving on.

  • Amanda

    Pooh Bear

    Far be it from preaching a False/New-Age gospel, we emphasize to these people that they need Jesus and that he died for them.

    Why do they need Him and why did He die?

  • Amanda


    Could Roger be given the opportunity to defend himself against the liar charge?

  • Roger Saner

    @AdMo: my apologies – I’d forgotten about the Disceramentalist Mafia – I was last there months and months ago and they sounded vaguely familiar when you mentioned them. I did indeed post a comment directly after visiting there this afternoon (so when I said I don’t know who that is and I don’t follow that blog, I meant it – my memory was indeed a little fuzzy).

    Btw, I don’t expect this comment to be published – just replying directly to you. Cheers.

  • AdMo

    Roger Saner you said “Re: the Disceramentalist Mafia – I don’t know who that is and I don’t even follow that blog, but I’ll go and check it out and see what they’re up to.” this is not true, again you lie. You know who Iggy and his Discernamentalist Mafia website. Just to back it up, see your comment here: Roger Saner September 4th, 2009 at 11:18 am

    Now I see you have gone and posted there about being banned from here. Excellent, continue to post there, should do wonders for your future “church”. The youth of today love this kinda hateful, disgusting satire aimed at Jesus Christ and His Saints. New Age Christianity with a New Christ is in. The old way and Jesus Christ and repentance of sin is out.

  • Amanda

    So long, Roger.

    Indeed, I count everything as loss because of the surpassing worth of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord. For his sake I have suffered the loss of all things and count them as rubbish, in order that I may gain Christ and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which comes through faith in Christ, the righteousness from God that depends on faith–
    (Philippians 3:8-9)

  • sara

    i hope one day you’ll all understand, you are stuck with words and religion cages.
    you can believe in god and still know your body and all his energetic function, that’s all. to be a master of your body means to respect your body/soul and the one of others being. this is the biggest bless on earth. and you are missing it. brothers i hope you will get it one day.

    lots of love!!

  • Robbie

    Too shallow for me…
    Rom 2:11 For there is no respect of persons with God.

  • Nick

    For someone who says this stuff is evil, you sure do provide us an awful lot of information on how to do it. Don’t ya think?

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)


    I don’t provide any info on how to do it – if you really want to know how to do it just to go church.

  • Robbie

    It is actually simple.
    Some of “us” do not notice the difference between a false and genuine $10 bill unless someone presents the detail on the false one. The intention is really to teach “us” to learn to discern

    The problem is that so many self proclaimed Christians think it ok to serve flesh and spirit with the same passion and has become so “addicted” to the occult that it becomes necessary to dissect until the carcass is exposed.

    Let me keep it simple. Rat poison consists of 99,9% good food and 0,1% poison. It still kills. It is like the many deceptive pastors and prophets exposed on this blog. If you miss the detail, you will fall into the ditch.

    But now you are here… stick around and keep reading, At least… you will not get your ears tickled here

  • Redeemed

    Nick, in exposing evil it is necessary to explain just how evil it is. If any professing believer would want to have anything to do with “Christian” yoga after reading this, they are falsely professing.

    You apparently miss the point of this article if you think it might lead someone into taking up yoga.

    Exactly what is YOUR point? Help us to understand, please.

  • Eric

    Hello there~

    Wondering if I may be able to use an image from your website. Curious to know if there are copyrights.

    ERIC :)

  • Terri Haney

    Unbelievable! Get your facts straight! The current Christian Bible was created by Constantine 300 years after Christ died and has nothing to do with the early Christ followers. Stop intermingling a bonafide philosophy with your own interpretations of religion! If you tell me that GOD is a guy in the sky, I’ll tell you he is an alien! God (consciousness) does exist and current science has proved it! Do your homework! Get a clue! Ancient energy systems are NOT evil! Everything in this Universe is made up of nothing but energy, so it stands to reason it can be influenced by the only thing that truly does exists. I’ll let you find out what that is if you are brave enough to stop being a sheep and do your own research! By the way Jesus was a Jew!

  • Terri Haney,

    You are watching too many movies like the Da Vinci’s Code and allowing them to lead you to destruction.

    Question: Please comment on this new bestseller, The Da Vinci Code. It claims the Bible was collated by Constantine and a vote of the Council of Nicea, which did away with the gospels that spoke of Christ’s humanity and embellished gospels to make him godlike. The Council voted to establish Him as “Son of God.” The Dead Sea Scrolls prove that the modern Bible was compiled and edited by men who possessed a political agenda to promote the divinity of the man Jesus Christ [in order] to solidify their own power base. The “Holy Grail” was revealed by Da Vinci in his painting of the Last Supper when he painted Mary Magdalene on Jesus’ right. The “secret” that is being hidden is that Jesus was married to Mary and they had a child. The “Priory of Zion” secret society claims this is a royal bloodline that still exists. They worship the female deity, Mary Magdalene. My concern is that young Christians could be misled and the bias of non-Christians against the church and Bible strengthened.

    Answer: This is sensational nonsense, which many are more willing to believe than the truth. There was no vote at the Council of Nicea concerning the books of the Bible. They were simply quoted by both sides. The Old Testament had been settled centuries before Christ, and no vote was needed for the New Testament. It was not until the Third Council of Carthage 72 years later that the first counciliar declaration in this regard would be made. Christians knew and agreed by consensus upon the New Testament.

    Yes, the Council of Nicea did put down the heresy of Arius, who denied that Jesus was God. But they settled the matter from the Bible and not by Constantinian edict. The Old Testament itself proves Christ’s deity. Among the Dead Sea Scrolls was almost a complete copy of Isaiah, which turned out to be exactly the same as the copies the church already had—and it clearly declares Christ’s deity. No one could tamper with the Old Testament, of which we have the Septuagint dating back prior to 200 BC—and it agrees with the New Testament. The historical and prophetic accuracy of the Bible and its doctrinal unity from Genesis to Revelation proves it has never been revised in any way.

    That Da Vinci painted a woman into the Last Supper is disputed—but what would it matter if he did? He wasn’t there and is not the authority. “Holy Grail” is more nonsense and sensationalism. That Jesus was married to Mary Magdalene is more of the same. You put your finger on the obvious bias—denying Christ’s deity while elevating Mary as goddess.

    Prove that this book is foolishness? It contradicts the Bible, which we know is the truth, and therefore it must be false. The Bible is filled with historical and prophetical proofs for which there is not enough space to recite here.


  • Confused

    I’m a bit confused. I believe it is safe to conclude that many commenting on this article are in fact followers of the Christian religion. I respect your choice to follow in this belief but I think you should be a bit more respectful of others’ beliefs and religions. In the Christian religion the only being who can judge is your God or the Son of God. Why then does it seem that the author and those commenting are judging those of the same belief and those with differing views? I think everyone on here could benefit from a little tolerance and respect when it comes to such a personal topic. Your bible coincides with beliefs across the globe and the history of time. The story of Jesus Christ coincides as well with many other prophets in other religions (following the same story of being born to a virgin mother, dying for the sins of man only to rise 3 days later~ which also just so happens to coincide with the astronomical event of the winter solstice and the stars which form Orion’s Belt). I can understand and respect the idea of believing and putting faith into religion but there also needs to be respect towards those with opposing views. No where does it states that God would punish individuals for believing different ideas just because a radical side wants to believe that only they are following the right path or belief. If we are all “Sons of God” then this spiritual being created all individuals, even those with opposing points of view, for a reason.

  • Confused,

    Christians are commanded to judge righteously which means that they should evaluate everything in the light of the Bible. Showing respect and tolerance for anything that does not line up with God’s Word is called idolatry. For instance, the idea that the astronomical event of the winter solstice and the stars which form the Orion Belt coincides with the biblical narrative of Jesus Christ’s birth, is not true. In fact, it is pagan mythology at best. Rev. Hislop writes in his book “The Two Babylons:”

    In Egypt, the son of Isis, the Egyptian title for the queen of heaven, was born at this very time, “about the time of the winter solstice.” The very name by which Christmas is popularly known among ourselves–Yule-day –proves at once its Pagan and Babylonian origin. “Yule” is the Chaldee name for an “infant” or “little child”; * and as the 25th of December was called by our Pagan Anglo-Saxon ancestors, “Yule-day,” or the “Child’s day,” and the night that preceded it, “Mother-night,” long before they came in contact with Christianity, that sufficiently proves its real character.

    From Eol, an “infant.” In Scotland, at least in the Lowlands, the Yule-cakes are also called Nur-cakes. Now in Chaldee Nour signifies “birth.” Therefore, Nur-cakes are “birth-cakes.” The Scandinavian goddesses, called “norns,” who appointed children their destinies at their birth, evidently derived their name from the cognate Chaldee word “Nor,” a child.

    Far and wide, in the realms of Paganism, was this birth-day observed. This festival has been commonly believed to have had only an astronomical character, referring simply to the completion of the sun’s yearly course, and the commencement of a new cycle. But there is indubitably evidence that the festival in question had a much higher reference than this–that it commemorated not merely the figurative birth-day of the sun in the renewal of its course, but the birth-day of the grand Deliverer. Among the Sabeans of Arabia, who regarded the moon, and not the sun, as the visible symbol of the favourite object of their idolatry, the same period was observed as the birth festival. Thus we read in Stanley’s Sabean Philosophy: “On the 24th of the tenth month,” that is December, according to our reckoning, “the Arabians celebrated the BIRTHDAY OF THE LORD–that is the Moon.” The Lord Moon was the great object of Arabian worship, and that Lord Moon, according to them, was born on the 24th of December, which clearly shows that the birth which they celebrated had no necessary connection with the course of the sun. It is worthy of special note, too, that if Christmas-day among the ancient Saxons of this island, was observed to celebrate the birth of any Lord of the host of heaven, the case must have been precisely the same here as it was in Arabia. The Saxons, as is well known, regarded the Sun as a female divinity, and the Moon as a male.

    The God of the Bible is a jealous God who will not tolerate his children to have any association with any form of idolatry, paganism or other religions. However, they are commanded to love even their enemies while they are intolerant of their religious practices. God loves all people but does not tolerate their idolatry.

    You wrote:

    No where does it states that God would punish individuals for believing different ideas just because a radical side wants to believe that only they are following the right path or belief. If we are all “Sons of God” then this spiritual being created all individuals, even those with opposing points of view, for a reason.

    Not all people are Sons of God.

    But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: (John 1:12).

    For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God. (Romans 8:14)

    Yes, He created all people but He did not inspire them to have opposing points of view. He want his children to be of one mind and one spirit.

    Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment. (1 Corinthians 1:10)

    As for God judging and punishing individuals for believing different ideas, the following will suffice.

    But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed. (Galatians 1:8-9)

    I was a fire officer on the floor of a huge building where I worked for many years. It was my duty to inform my colleagues exactly what to do and where the emergency fire exits were. Anyone who disobeyed me during fire drills – even my seniors – were scolded and warned very harshly about their conduct. I was in control because I was held responsible for everyone on my floor. Now, imagine what would happen when everyone followed his own ideas to escape a fire. Most of them would probably be killed. The same applies to things in the spiritual realm. The God of the Bible has supplied all mankind with an exit to escape the fires of hell. His Name is Jesus Christ. Anyone is free to follow his own ideas but it leads to destruction.

    There is a way which seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death. (Proverbs 14:12).

  • b.e

    A great detailed post indeed, but i’d rather you keep an open mind and speak from an objective paradigm that doesnt intend to influence but express and let people choose if they view these as bad evil or good, not everyone is a christian and there is nothing wrong with that, these concepts are solemly based on spirituality its power how people choose to use it is up to them, you throwing prejudice lables is totally out of line.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)


    The bible is the Word of God and the final authority of all matters. The bible tells us that things of the occult are Satanic – therefore they go against God. This is a Christian website hence it will speak the truth. The comment section is open to people like yourself who disagree but we will never waiver with regards to the truth. If you want to keep an open mind and believe in the occult then you go against God. You have the right to believe what ever you want, but there comes a time in everyone’s life when they have to face the fact. That God exists, Jesus Christ His Son exists and you are either for him or against him.

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Terms and Conditions for Submission of Comments

7 Colours of the Rainbow and the 7 Chakras

Terms and Conditions:terms and conditions

Because this world is becoming more evil by the minute and Discerning the World is coming under attack more often from people with some very nasty dispositions, we now have ‘Terms and Conditions for Submission of Comments‘ which you need to agree too before you can comment – this is to protect us and you when you comment on this website.  If you are not here to harm Discerning the World and it’s authors, please by all means comment, however if you are here to cause harm in any way, please don’t comment.

The following conditions does not mean that the authors of Discerning The World permit only opinions that are in agreement with us. This also does not mean that we fear dissenting opinions or ideas that are contrary to the beliefs that we hold (and/or that of the revealed Scriptures of the Holy Bible).

The following describes the Terms and Conditions applicable to your use of the “Comments” submission service at the Discerning the World website.


  1. Discerning the World owns and operates the site (the “Site”). Your use of the features on the Site allowing for submission of a “Comment” is subject to the following terms and conditions (the “Terms”). Discerning the World may modify these Terms at any time without notice to you by posting revised Terms on the Site. Your submission of a “Comment” to the Site following the modification of these Terms shall constitute your binding acceptance of and agreement to be bound by those modified Terms.
  2. By submitting a “Comment” you are accepting these Terms through your clicking of the “POST COMMENT” button.
  3. Discerning the World has the right, but not the obligation, to take any of the following actions, in Discerning the World’s sole unfettered discretion, at any time, and for any reason or no reason, without providing any prior notice:
    1. Restrict, suspend or terminate your ability to submit “Comments,” to the Site;
    2. Change, suspend or modify all or any part of the Site or the features thereof;
    3. Refuse or remove any material posted on, submitted to or communicated through the Site by you;
    4. Deactivate or delete any screen names, profiles or other information associated with you; or
    5. Alter, modify, discontinue or remove any comment off the Site.
  4. You agree that, when using or accessing the Site or any of the features thereof, you will not:
    1. Violate any applicable law or regulation;
    2. Interfere with or damage the Site, through hacking or any other means;
    3. Transmit or introduce to the Site or to other users thereof any viruses, cancel bots, Trojan horses, flood pings, denial of service attacks, or any other harmful code or processes;
    4. Transmit or submit harmful, threatening, abusive, harassing, defamatory, deceptive, fraudulent, obscene, indecent, vulgar, lewd, violent, hateful or otherwise objectionable content or material;
    5. Transmit or submit any unsolicited advertising, promotional materials, or spam;
    6. Stalk or harass any user or visitor to the Site; or
    7. Use the content or information available on the Site for any improper purpose.
  5. You retain the Copyright of any “Comment” you submit to Discerning the World. By submitting a “Comment” to Discerning the World, you agree to grant Discerning the World a irrevocable, non-exclusive, royalty-free, perpetual license to use the material or commentary that you have submitted, in any medium and in any manner that Discerning the World may, in its sole unfettered discretion, choose.
  6. By submitting a “Comment” to Discerning the World, you agree to comply with the following rules concerning such submissions:
    1.  You agree not to include in your “Comment”:
      1. Any false, defamatory, libelous, abusive, threatening, racially offensive, sexually explicit, obscene, harmful, vulgar, hateful, illegal, or otherwise objectionable content;
      2. Any content that may be seen as stalking or harassing of any other Site contributors;
      3. Any content that personally attacks an individual. (An example of a personal attack is posting negative comments about an individual in a way meant to demean that person. Note that posting your opinion about someone’s ideas, doctrine or actions is not a personal attack);
      4. Any content that discloses private details concerning any person, for eg., phone numbers that have not been made public, photos that are not in the public domain, residential address that is not public, ID numbers, Social Security numbers, email addresses that are not in the public domain, etc.;
      5. Any content that you know to be false, misleading, or fraudulent;
      6. Any use of profanity;
      7. Any content including advertisements or otherwise focused on the promotion of commercial events or businesses, or any request for or solicitation of money, goods, or services for private gain;
      8. Any content that contains software viruses or any other computer code, files or programs designed to interrupt, destroy or limit the functionality of any computer software or hardware or telecommunications equipment; or
      9. Any content directly or indirectly soliciting responses from minors (defined as anyone under 18 years of age).
    1. If any part of the “Comment” is not your original work, it is your responsibility to add the name of the third party, name the book with page number or a link (url) to the website where you obtained the information.
    2. Your “Comment” may contain Copyrighted material, the use of which has not always been specifically authorized by the copyright owner. You are however allowed to make such material available in your “Comment” in an effort to advance understanding of environmental, political, human rights, economic, democracy, scientific, and social justice issues, etc.  This constitutes a ‘fair use’ of any such copyrighted material as provided for in section 107 of the US Copyright Law. In accordance with Title 17 U.S.C. Section 107, the material on this Site is distributed without profit to those who have expressed a prior interest in receiving the included information for research and educational purposes. For more information go to:
    3. If you wish to use copyrighted material from a website or any other medium for purposes to add to your “Comment” that go beyond ‘fair use’, you must obtain permission from the copyright owner. (Fair Use means you may quote from copyrighted sources, but you may not publish the whole article, book, etc., in your “Comment”.)
  8. You are solely responsible for the “Comment” you upload, post, transmit or otherwise make available to others using this Web Site. Under no circumstances will Discerning the World be liable in any way for any “Comment” posted on or made available through this Site by you or any third party.
  9. You understand that all “Comments” on this Site are pre-screened or moderated. That means that every “Comment” needs to be approved by Discerning the World before it appears in the “Comments” section.  This is not an automatic process.  Discerning the World does this for SPAM reasons.
  10. Discerning the World has the right (but not the obligation) in their sole unfettered discretion to remove any “Comment” that is posted on or available through the Site. Without limiting the foregoing, Discerning the World has the right to remove any “Comment” that violates these Terms or is otherwise deemed objectionable by Discerning the World in its sole discretion.
  11. You understand that Discerning the World in their sole unfettered discretion is not obligated and can not be forced in any manner, be it legal or otherwise to remove any “Comment” that is posted on or made available through the Site by you.
  12. When submitting a “Comment,” you will be asked to provide your name and your email address. While Discerning the World does not object to your use of a pseudonym instead of your actual name, Discerning the World reserves the right, but not the obligation, to reject, change, disallow, or discontinue at any time any submission name that, in Discerning the World’s sole unfettered discretion, is objectionable or inappropriate for any reason. Discerning the World requires the submission of your email address, but Discerning the World warrants that it will not publish your email address to an outside third party without your consent.
  13. Discerning the World does not sell or rent your personal information to third parties for their marketing purposes. From time to time, Discerning the World may contact you personally via email. Notwithstanding the foregoing, you acknowledge and understand that the “Comments” feature of the Site is designed to permit users to post information and commentary for public review and comment and thus you hereby waive any expectation of privacy you may have concerning any likeness or information provided to the Site by you.
  14. You are solely responsible for your interactions with other users of or visitors to the Site.
    1. Discerning the World shall have the right, but not the obligation, to monitor interactions utilizing the “Comments” facility of the Site, between you and other users of or visitors to the Site. You acknowledge and agree that Discerning the World, or any third party shall not be, and you shall not seek to hold them, responsible for any harm or damage whatsoever arising in connection with your interaction with other users of or visitors to the Site.
    2. Discerning the World does not verify any information posted to or communicated via the “Comments” sections of the Site by users and does not guarantee the proper use of such information by any party who may have access to the information. You acknowledge and agree that Discerning the World does not assume, and shall not have, any responsibility for the content of messages or other communications sent or received by users of the Site.
  15. The Site contains content created by or on behalf of Discerning the World as well as content provided by third parties.
    1. Discerning the World does not control, and makes no representations or warranties about, any third party content, including such content that may be accessible directly on the Site or through links from the Site to third party sites.
    2. You acknowledge that, by viewing the Site or communications transmitted through the Site, you may be exposed to third party content that is false, offensive or otherwise objectionable to you or others, and you agree that under no circumstances shall Discerning the World be liable in any way, under any theory, for any third party content.
    3. You acknowledge and agree that the Site, and the contents thereof, is proprietary to Discerning the World and is protected by copyright. You agree that you will not access or use the Site or any of the content thereof for any reason or purpose other than your personal, non-commercial use.
    4. You agree that you will not systematically retrieve data or other content from the Site by any means, and you will not compile a database or directory of information extracted from the Site.
    5. You agree that you will not reproduce, distribute or make derivative works of the Site or any of the contents thereof without the express consent of Discerning the World.
    6. You hereby agree to indemnify, defend and hold harmless Discerning the World, its affiliates and licensees, and all of their officers, directors, employees, agents and representatives from and against any and all liabilities, losses, claims, damages, and expenses (including attorneys’ fees) in connection with any claim arising out of your use of the Site or violation of any of these Terms.



16. These Terms constitute the entire agreement between Discerning the World and you with respect to the subject matter hereof, and supersede any previous oral or written agreement between us with respect to such subject matter.

Thank you!