Ee-mmergency! Releasing Change Agents!

Change Agents - Christian youth - Roger Saner

Think new, act new …

“Change Agents is a youth leaders training conference. It is a place where youth leaders of diverse cultures come to discuss changing ministry in a changing world. Change Agents was originally an extension of the first SACLA conference – indeed, the first few Change Agent’s were also referred to as SACLA – as well as a successor to Youth for Christ’s National Youth Leaders Training Conference.

We’ve set up this site as a centre of conversation around ministry and the changing youth ministry landscape in South Africa; the leadership is also using it to host their discussions around the different areas of responsibility they must fulfill so that the August conference can happen.

We’d love your input too, since the discussion around youth ministry is not something reserved for a few elite people but a grassroots thing. The site is divided into groups – some of which are restricted to certain people to allow for privacy, and some of which are open to allow for conversation (we’re hoping to extend these to the Connect groups soon). We encourage you to join.”  [Emphasis added]

[DTW note:  oh, pick me, pick me, I have some input. How about preaching the Gospel of Jesus Christ as it was preached 2000 years ago and stop trying to change it by brainwashing little change agents.]

Roger Saner from EmergingAfrica, once part of the leadership team for Change Agents had this to say on his facebook setup regarding repentance of sin that telling someone to “Stop sinning and follow God” is almost an insulting statement” and “is NOT the gospel.” [Emphasis added]

Emerging Church ‘Change Agent’ Conversation in South Africa

As more people start reading Brian McLaren and John MacArthur they’re finding out about this thing called “The Emerging Church” which is either a very hopeful thing, or the biggest threat to Christianity the world has ever seen.

So, first up, this “Church” isn’t a church – it’s a conversation and a friendship between people who suspect something has gone deeply wrong with Western Christianity. Although some of the conversation might be depressing, ultimately it’s a hopeful participation in the rebuilding of the very architecture of Western Christianity.

Within South Africa, we know from our history that in spite of over 70% of the country being Christian, we managed to divorce our private faith from our public beliefs quite successfully, taking a long time to denouce structural evil (at least, this applies to the whities – others always knew that this thing was wrong). And what is more, we used Biblical justification for Apartheid…which means, as we move beyond that, we need to see the incorrect ways in which we approached (and used) the Bible…

Plus, we’re surrounded with enough people in poverty for whom “Stop sinning and follow God” is almost an insulting statement. What good does it do to tell someone they have life with God after they die, but do nothing to help them now? We suspect that this story is more self-serving and although clothed in the appearance of the Gospel, is not the Gospel[Emphasis added]

“It is beyond me how the church managed to get through the last 200 years without paying much attention to these lines in the Lord’s Prayer: ‘Your will be done ON EARTH as it is in heaven.'” N.T. Wright, 1st century scholar and New Testament theologian.

We haven’t “watered down the Gospel” as some accuse, in fact we would say that the Gospel already has been watered down to appeal to modern, individualistic minds. Now we get a chance to create something new as we go forward into the 21st century…

Roger Saner:    http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=2419328874

WHAT DOES THE BIBLE HAVE TO SAY ABOUT CHANGE AGENTS WHO ARE HELL BENT ON CHANGING THE GOSPEL.

Well Roger, lets see what the Bible has to say about repentance of sin; no matter if they are rich or poor,  no matter the time of day.  If you have a Bible please do go to the following verses and read along.

What is Sin?

Romans 8:7  7 because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so

Romans 8:3-4  3For what the Law could not do, weak as it was through the flesh, God did: sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and as an offering for sin, He condemned sin in the flesh,  4so that the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.

Should we be concerned about Sin?

Romans 6:23  23For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

How does God view those who lead others into sin?

Mark 9:42 42 Whoever causes one of these little ones who believe to stumble, it would be better for him if, with a heavy millstone hung around his neck, he had been cast into the sea.

Consequences of sin:

  • Death:   

Genesis 2:16-17   16The LORD God commanded the man, saying, “From any tree of the garden you may eat freely;   17but from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat from it you will surely die.”

  • Man’s shame and fear towards God.

Before the fall, Adam and Eve walked and talked with God. To us, how lucky they were. After they ate, they could not stand the sight of God, and felt ashamed in confronting God. To those who may take the Garden of Eden less literally than others, you can still see in yourself and others the shame of being around God when we know we’ve sinned.

  • All mankind is now sinners:  

Romans 5:12-14    12Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned-  13for until the Law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law.  14Nevertheless death reigned from Adam until Moses, even over those who had not sinned in the likeness of the offense of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come.

  • The Earth is also poisoned by sin.    

Genesis 3:17    17Then to Adam He said, “Because you have listened to the voice of your wife, and have eaten from the tree about which I commanded you, saying, ‘You shall not eat from it’;  Cursed is the ground because of you;  In toil you will eat of it.All the days of your life

Romans 8:20-21   20For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it, in hope.  21that the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God.

  • God’s wrath against sin:

Mankind was kicked out of the Garden of Eden by God for sinning, and was prevented from returning. God hates sin, and it was a while before one’s sins could be dealt with in the Mosaic laws.

Repentance of Sin is the only way to produce GOOD FRUIT:

Matthew 3:8 “Therefore bear fruit in keeping with repentance;

Repentance is a change of attitude and action, not just muttering:

Luke 3:8  8“Therefore bear fruits in keeping with repentance, and do not begin to say to yourselves, ‘We have Abraham for our father,’ for I say to you that from these stones God is able to raise up children to Abraham.

Restoration:  Example, The Prodigal Son:

Luke 15:21-22  21“And the son said to him, ‘Father, I have sinned against heaven and in your sight; I am no longer worthy to be called your son.’ 22“But the father said to his slaves, ‘Quickly bring out the best robe and put it on him, and put a ring on his hand and sandals on his feet;  23and bring the fattened calf, kill it, and let us eat and celebrate;  24for this son of mine was dead and has come to life again; he was lost and has been found.’ And they began to celebrate.

Confess sin – Promise of Forgiveness:

1 John 9-11  8If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us. 9If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar and His word is not in us.

Repent Repent Repent:

Luke 13:3  3“I tell you, no, but unless you repent, you will all likewise perish.

Matthew 4:17  17 From that time Jesus began to preach and say, “Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.”

Matthew 3:2  2 “Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.”

Great commission / Good News was that:

Mark 6:12  12They went out and preached that men should repent.

Acts 2:38 38Peter said to them, “Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Proverbs 14:12  12There is a way which seems right to a man,  But its end is the way of death.

Temptation turns to sin:

James 1:14-15 14But each one is tempted when he is carried away and enticed by his own lust.15Then when lust has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and when sin is accomplished, it brings forth death.

Repent, TURN FROM YOUR WICKED WAYS:

Ezekiel 18:23-31  23“Do I have any pleasure in the death of the wicked,” declares the Lord GOD, “rather than that he should turn from his ways and live? 24“But when a righteous man turns away from his righteousness, commits iniquity and does according to all the abominations that a wicked man does, will he live? All his righteous deeds which he has done will not be remembered for his treachery which he has committed and his sin which he has committed; for them he will die.25“Yet you say, ‘The way of the Lord is not right ‘ Hear now, O house of Israel! Is My way not right? Is it not your ways that are not right?26“When a righteous man turns away from his righteousness, commits iniquity and dies because of it, for his iniquity which he has committed he will die. 27“Again, when a wicked man turns away from his wickedness which he has committed and practices justice and righteousness, he will save his life. 28“Because he considered and turned away from all his transgressions which he had committed, he shall surely live; he shall not die.29“But the house of Israel says, ‘The way of the Lord is not right.’ Are My ways not right, O house of Israel? Is it not your ways that are not right? 30“Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, each according to his conduct,” declares the Lord GOD. “Repent and turn away from all your transgressions, so that iniquity may not become a stumbling block to you. 31“Cast away from you all your transgressions which you have committed and make yourselves a new heart and a new spirit! For why will you die, O house of Israel?

Ezekiel 33:11  11 Say to them, ‘As I live!’ declares the Lord GOD, ‘I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that the wicked turn from his way and live Turn back, turn back from your evil ways! Why then will you die, O house of Israel?’

Man’s ways contrast what God wants:

Ephesians 4:17-24  17So this I say, and affirm together with the Lord, that you walk no longer just as the Gentiles also walk, in the futility of their mind, 18being darkened in their understanding, excluded from the life of God because of the ignorance that is in them, because of the hardness of their heart;19and they, having become callous, have given themselves over to sensuality for the practice of every kind of impurity with greediness.20But you did not learn Christ in this way,21if indeed you have heard Him and have been taught in Him, just as truth is in Jesus,22that, in reference to your former manner of life, you lay aside the old self, which is being corrupted in accordance with the lusts of deceit,23and that you be renewed in the spirit of your mind,24and put on the new self, which in the likeness of God has been created in righteousness and holiness of the truth.

Ephesians 2:1-3  1And you were dead in your trespasses and sins,  2in which you formerly walked  according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience.3Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest.

Galatians 5:16  16 So I say, live by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the sinful nature.

Matthew 5:28-29  “But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart. If your right eye causes you to sin, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to be thrown into hell.”

Romans 8:5-9  Those who live according to the sinful nature have their minds set on what that nature desires; but those who live in accordance with the Spirit have their minds set on what the Spirit desires. The mind of the sinful man is death, but the mind controlled by the Spirit is life and peace; the sinful mind is hostile to God. It does not submit to God’s law, nor can it do so. Those controlled by the sinful nature cannot please God. You, however, are not controlled by the sinful nature but by the Spirit, if the Spirit of God lives in you

Ephesians 5:15-17  Be very careful, then, how you live, not as unwise but as wise, making the most of every opportunity, because the days are evil. Therefore, do not be foolish, but understand what the Lord’s will is.

Ephesians 5:8-10  For you were once in darkness, but now you are light in the Lord. Live as children of light (for the fruit of the light consists in all goodness, righteousness, and truth) and find out what pleases the Lord.

James 1:25  25But one who looks intently at the perfect law, the law of liberty, and abides by it, not having become a forgetful hearer but an effectual doer, this man will be blessed in what he does.

The Gift of God that comes with Repentance:

1 Peter 2:2  Like newborn babies, crave pure spiritual milk, so that by it you may grow up in your salvation, now that you have tasted that the Lord is good.

Psalms 119:104-105 I gain understanding from your precepts; therefore, I hate every wrong path. Your word is a lamp to my feet and a light for my path.

Psalms 16:11 You have made known to me the path of life; you will fill me with joy in your presence, with eternal pleasures at your right hand.

2 Peter 1:3-4  3seeing that His divine power has granted to us everything pertaining to life and godliness, through the true knowledge of Him who called us by His own glory and excellence.4For by these He has granted to us His precious and magnificent promises, so that by them you may become partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world by lust.

Romans 12:1-2  1Therefore I urge you, brethren, by the mercies of God, to present your bodies a living and holy sacrifice, acceptable to God, which is your spiritual service of worship. 2And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, so that you may prove what the will of God is, that which is good and acceptable and perfect.

MORE Warnings:

Isaiah 30:15  This is what the Sovereign Lord, the Holy One of Israel, says: “In repentance and rest is your salvation, in quietness and trust is your strength, but you would have none of it.”

Philippians 3:19  Their destiny is destruction, their god is their stomach, and their glory is their shame. Their mind is on earthly things.

2 Peter 2:21-22  It would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than to have known it and then to turn their backs on the sacred command that was passed on to them. Of them the proverbs are true: “A dog returns to its own vomit,” and “A sow that is washed goes back to wallowing in the mud.”

Luke 9:62  62But Jesus said to him, “No one, after putting his hand to the plow and looking back, is fit for the kingdom of God.”

How URGENT and IMPORTANT is repentance of sin?

Isaiah 55:6-7  Seek the Lord while he may be found; call on him while he is near. Let the wicked forsake his way and the evil man his thoughts. Let him turn to the Lord, and he will have mercy on him, and to our God, for he will freely pardon.

Romans 2:4 4Or do you think lightly of the riches of His kindness and tolerance and patience, not knowing that the kindness of God leads you to repentance?

Acts 17:30 In the past God overlooked such ignorance, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent.

James 5:19-20 19My brethren, if any among you strays from the truth and one turns him back, 20let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save his soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins.

Revelation 3:3  3‘So remember what you have received and heard; and keep it, and repent Therefore if you do not wake up, I will come like a thief, and you will not know at what hour I will come to you

Acts 2:38  38Peter said to them, “Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

2 Timothy 2:19  “The Lord knows those who are his,” and “everyone who confesses the name of the Lord must turn away from wickedness.”

Acts 3:19  “Repent, then, and turn to God, so that your sins may be wiped out, that times of refreshing may come from the Lord.”

There are many many many verses here for you Roger “Change Agent” Saner regarding sin and repentance of sin and the preaching of repentance of sin.  Repentance of sin through Jesus Christ is the foundation of the Gospel. 

You preach another message, one that tries to obliterate the foundation, the foundation that is Jesus Christ.  If you think that telling someone to repent of their sin is an insult then you are saying that Jesus is NOT the one and only mediator between man and God.  By saying this you are saying that Jesus Christ who died for us so that His blood will wash away our sin for those who believe is a lie, useless or an insult – By that one paragraph you have completely removed Jesus Christ out of the picture. 

You hold your head high, all smug, that you and your future change agent campers, “now get a chance to create something new”.  Well, newsflash!  You are not creating anything new, this is ancient knowledge already, just being made known again – like an old secret that comes out of the closet.  Since the beginning of time Satan has been trying to remove Jesus Christ in any which way he can.  If I am not mistaken he probably has a patent on the design.  So run along now and stop trying to reinvent the pentagram and say you had something to do with it. 

You are a youth pastor are you not?  When I was listing the countless verses above I felt terribly sorry for you.  So here is the Gospel of Jesus Christ.   Roger, repent of your sin, get on your knees before Jesus Christ the Son of God whom you INSULT and beg Him for forgiveness.  Your life is in HIS hands.  Not the other way around.

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Deborah (Discerning the World)

Deborah Ellish is the author of the above article. Discerning the World is an internet Christian Ministry based in Johannesburg South Africa. Tom Lessing and Deborah Ellish both own Discerning the World. For more information see the About this Website page below the comments section.

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Pooh Bear

You’re a classic!!

Pooh Bear

But surely fundamentalists still need to engage in discussion, instead of just quoting Scripture. Do you think I don’t know/believe those verses? Come on.. talk to me 🙂

Pooh Bear

Clever tactic- make an accusation, allow people to respond, but then quote verses until they get fed up and then it looks like you’ve won the argument, you feel better about yourself, the evil “satan-worshippers” leave you alone, and you can continue to make generalized judgements about anything and everything you don’t agree with! All I’m asking you is to justify your wild claims without just sticking a verse in place of a clear argument. It makes it look like you don’t have an answer, so you hide behind some unrelated verses. It’s an easy way out, but you’re putting up an unnecessary wall between yourself and a fellow believer!

[DTW made comments in bold next too Pooh Bears questions….]

>> ….then quote verses until they get fed up and then it looks like you’ve won the argument

Reading verses from the bible should never make anyone remotely upset if they are truly Christian. It does however offend an unbeliever

Let me address your comments (take note, this is from, “How-to-respond-to-a-blog-post Lesson 101″):
1) >>”Even Satan knows and believes in Scripture so what’s your point?”
Umm, hang on, what exactly is YOUR point? You’ve just proven that quoting verses is pointless! (Great, now that you have confirmed that quoting scripture is pointless, lets move on…)

2) >>”Don’t believe all who profess the name of Jesus:”
So how do we know we can trust anything you say? (Because I love the Word of God, and you don’t- see point 1 where God and His Word is useless – remember Jesus Christ is the Word made Flesh, so if the Word is poinless so is Jesus Christ and His Father)

3)>> “I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS”
Are you accusing me of practicing lawlessness? (No, the Word of God is, it’s your choice to listen to the Bible though.)

4) >>”To get me to stop quoting scripture and dialogue with you using philosophy and worldly wisdom?”
No, you’re welcome to quote scripture where relevant! I’ll do the same if it’s necessary, but when I ask you a question and you answer it with a verse, that’s not a discussion. So what’s the point of a blog-site? You may as well just delete all these blogs and just have the Bible here. (You can’t quote scripture to suit yourself when necessary because scripture is pointless…as you said)

5) >>”You don’t want me to quote scripture because the Word of God is a discerner of the your thoughts and intents of the heart”
Really? And what are the intents of my heart? (God knows your heart, I do not. Read properly)

6) >> Hebrew 4:11-12
I fully agree! The word of God is living and powerful. So, “COME, LET US REASON TOGETHER” Isaiah 1:18
(See point 1 were scripture as per you in pointless – so you can’t quote scripture)

One

Prov. 29:9 If a wise man has an argument with a fool,
the fool only rages and laughs, and there is no quiet.

James 1:26   If anyone thinks he is religious qand does not bridle his tongue but deceives his heart, this person’s religion is worthless.

1Cor. 13:1- 3   If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal. And if I have prophetic powers, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. If I give away all I have, and if I deliver up my body to be burned, but have not love, I gain nothing.

Matt. 23:13   “But woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you oshut the kingdom of heaven in people’s faces. For you neither enter yourselves nor allow those who would enter to go in. 15 Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you travel across sea and land to make a single proselyte, and when he becomes a proselyte, you make him twice as much a child of hell as yourselves.

Matt. 23:25   “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you clean the outside of the cup and the plate, but inside they are full of greed and self-indulgence.

It is painfully obvious that you have purposefully chosen to misunderstood Roger’s statement and your intention is to engage in a Pharisaical debate.

cecilia

Roger Saner

You said on September 4th, 2009 at 11:08 am to DTW “I’ll be happy to engage [with you]. Engagement = conversion in your world? No wonder you don’t want to talk!”

It’s because of this comment that I did this short research on the “word-games” RS and other learned people often employ. This might help take other readers’ confusion away when they stumble upon this “word-game” – cecilia

Talk
(noun) talk, talking
an exchange of ideas via conversation ;
(verb) talk, speak
exchange thoughts; talk with;
> exchange thoughts; talk with; express in speech; an exchange of ideas via conversation; speak: use language; discussion; spill: reveal information; etc.

communicate
(verb) communicate, pass on, pass, pass along, put across
transmit information; Communication is the process of transferring information from one source to another. Communication is commonly defined as “the imparting or interchange of thoughts, opinions, or information by speech, writing, or signs”.

reason
(verb) argue, reason
present reasons and arguments
(verb) reason
think logically

conversation
A conversation is communication by two, three, or more people but talking is only using the mouth, although you can also have conversations online, It is a social skill that is not difficult for most individuals.

Converse
carry on a conversation; a proposition obtained by conversion

to engage
To involve oneself or become occupied; participate: engage in conversation.

Roger Saner you said on the September 4th, 2009 at 11:08 am to DTW – “You don’t care about responses or about any kind of ongoing engagement (katartizo, anyone?)”.

I did a quick study about this D, but before presenting, EVERYONE – ALL THE BLOGGERS who use the “tactic” to “throw a stone into the bushes and wait to see what comes out”. I’ve read many of the ‘critics’ blogs, and some say openly to each other they just did it for the fun, to see what comes out. (I’ll search for it again if anyone wants the “proof” ! did not save it, it was not such a “nice” thing to read on one specific bloggers’ blog! “All should be careful to throw stones, least one is found to be in the same boat. [my saying.” C]

Katartizo has a wide range of meaning, but one of the first we see in the New Testament is at Jesus’ calling of James and John to be disciples while they were “mending” their nets in the boat with their father Zebedee.’

2 Cor 13:9,11 Your restoration is what we pray for. . . . Finally, brothers, rejoice. Aim for restoration, comfort one another, agree with one another, live in peace, and the God of love and peace will be with you (ESV).

In Koine Greek, the verb form is katartizo, which in various translations is “be perfect” (KJV), be made perfect” (NIV), “aim for perfection” (NEB), “be made complete” (NKJV), “mend your ways” (RSV, JB), and “aim for restoration” (ESV).

Rom 8:6-8 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. (7) Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. (8) So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

We read that the carnal (human flesh) mind is at enmity with God, because the carnal mind will not submit to the law of God since our fallen human nature is completely corrupted with spiritual rebellion. The goal of the Katartizo process is to repair our brokenness and equip us to do God’s work. This can only occur when we yield to the law (divine order) of God and allow the Holy Spirit to carry out these functions. We are put back in right order when we allow the Holy Spirit to crucify our carnal nature.

Its important we understand that our carnal mind is enmity with God. The carnal mind can express itself with an assortment of characteristics and qualities. Christians, by their actions, think that the carnal mind will only express itself with crude and base characteristics. But this ignorant mind-set is very dangerous, because the carnal mind can also be high-minded and noble. The carnal mind is very much alive in the Christian church through its high-minded (self righteous) and noble actions. The high-minded, noble carnal mind is as much at enmity with God and they who are crude and base.

James 4:4 Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God.

James taught us that friendship with the world is enmity with God. How much of our church liturgy and ritual is enmity with God? Its difficult fathom the seriousness associated with our yielding to the Katartizo process, since spiritual maturity can only occur when we are in the right order with God.

It is worth it to read this whole documentation. The writer ends with an important conclusion: “Now we should see that the English concept of perfection is not a true biblical application. True biblical perfection is not a completed flawless product, but it’s a process we endure in order to become like our true divine master, Jesus Christ. Only at this point can we consider ourselves to be His disciples yielded to the Katartizo process.” http://www.jmbeatty.com/Being%20Perfect.htm

Galatians 6:1 – “Brothers, if someone is caught in a sin, you who are spiritual should restore him gently.”

-The key word in this Scripture is restore, which is the Greek word, katartizo (kat-ar-tid’-zo). It has the meaning of to mend what is broken or torn, to repair, to complete, to put in order, to adjust, to equip. The goal of katartizo is to make something or someone useful for its intended purpose. As it is used in Galatians 6:1, katartizo is the mending of broken people and restoring them to their original purpose as God intended.

AdMo

Pooh Bear you comments are being deleted. See rules and regulations. We are are not here to speak to you and hold your hand 24 hours of the day until such time that you are happy that we agree with you. If you think Change Agents are not new age, then you have nothing to worry about and neither does anyone else. You have been given enough space to air your new age one world views.

cecilia

agreed D! what went through my mind when I send in that comment, was that a lot of these folk that feel we are attacking them and being hard, tread them unfairly, are judging them, etc. actually aren’t the “hurt” people in Gal. and others. they are many times proud, arrogant, heads high as to show they are just ‘the ones’, many times head knowledge and ‘Martha-like busy-ness’ etc. and that they point these scriptures to the ones who discern the wrong / wrong spirit etc. without looking to who they really are and what they really portray, not realizing that the scripture that supposedly should ‘protect’ them from ‘judgment’, actually don’t apply to them; because they ‘take the protection away’ by being who and delivering what they are and do. acknowledge: many of these folks DO do ‘good deeds’, but to what end? I once knew a pastor who knew the salvation message to such an extent that he ‘saved many people’, but when I asked him what salvation meant for him, he could not give me a reply! He stayed in ‘the business’ because that was his income! most often I find that it’s all about the money machine – having ‘a job’, enriching oneself, gaining recognition 4 oneself, being important, being noticed, etc. Scripture says: freely, freely you have received, now freely give (Matthew 10:8
Heal the sick, raise the dead, cleanse those who have leprosy, drive out demons. Freely you have received, freely give). but the believers in Christ who give away books, cd’s, clothes, food, etc (unless they received it for free from others), are far in the minority. Nowadays it is the ‘game with words’. create uncertainty, you win half the game. It reminds me of a thesis I did long time ago about the power of words. It can disguise the real person in such a way that the motive seems more important than the speaker; and listeners in the end ignore the fact that ANY speakers’ words should be heard together with full recognition of the person’s life and actions. I’ve seen pastors and many times counselors giving ‘good advice’ and ‘doing good deeds’ whilst in their own lives they were adulterers, fornicators, haters of other races, etc. and in one case I was personally involved with – a woman abuser to the extent of ending her life here on earth.
what ever happened to the words:
Colossians 3:2 –
Set your minds on things above, not on earthly things. and
1 Peter 1:13 – [ Be Holy ] Therefore, prepare your minds for action; be self-controlled; set your hope fully on the grace to be given you when Jesus Christ is revealed.
I praise the Lord God for a person such as you, not forgetting the others I know of, who has the ‘guts’ to step out and discern, and speak out, sometimes to the extent of ‘snatching others from the fire’. thanks Debs! cecilia

Pooh Bear

I just want to say that I’m not a New Ager, and in fact, I have a
personal relationship with Jesus Christ, and I believe He’s the son
of God who died and rose again. As a believer, I have been trying to
reason with you about Change Agents, and I realize you’re not
prepared to listen. That’s fine- you’re entitled to your opinion. But
at least let someone who reads this blog decide for themselves
whether Change Agents is against God or not, by hearing both sides of
it.

I also don’t believe I’ve said anything that violates the rules of
this site. If I’m wrong about that, I apologize. Either way, I’ll
respect your wishes not to discuss this any further if you allow this
comment to be posted.

Grace & peace to you in His name

Roger Saner

What’s the point in talking? 4 of my comments were deleted from this post; none of them violated your guidelines for posting. DTW, you’re not listening to me, so why should I listen to you? This is like a trying to have an adult conversation with a petulant 8 year old.

PGYFSF

Hi DTW, you don’t have a name, so neither do I. With all due respect, your perspective on Change Agents is WAY OFF. Roger was a single member of a large leadership team made up of very solid Bible-believing Christian leaders who have a heart for youth pastors and leaders and want to better equip them to make authentic disciples of Jesus Christ and impact their communities with the gospel as recorded and exemplified in scripture. Here is a quote from a recent Change Agents document….

Born out of SACLA 2003, Change Agents is a unique leading edge training process for pastors and leaders ministering to Southern Africa’s most fertile “mission field” – youth, young adults, and children. Developed by a network of experienced leaders with a passion for young people, Change Agents seeks to help every local church effectively engage emerging generations with the gospel of Jesus Christ, developing contextually relevant communities of authentic disciples who impact others through Spirit-led incarnational, holistic ministry. Our heart’s desire is to see the Church in South Africa glorify God by practicing the Great Commandments (Matthew 22:37-39), becoming “salt” and “light” in our various contexts (Matthew 5:13-16), and fulfilling the Great Commission (Matthew 28:18-20).

Our core values are not merely ideals or goals we seek to achieve, but truths and choices that inform our ministry philosophy, underlie our decisions, guide our actions, and shape our lifestyles. As a leadership team, we are committed to…

• Glorifying God in all that we do by submitting to the Lordship of Jesus, obeying God’s word as revealed in the scriptures, being led and empowered by the Holy Spirit, and pursuing God’s Kingdom purposes.

• Being relevant for our time and context, engaging each subculture effectively with the word of God, modeling authentic Christian lifestyle and community, and confronting cultural values and practices which dishonour God and rob people of their God-given value and purpose.

• Developing Bible-based discipleship communities that are contextually relevant, incarnational, and transformational.

• Helping leaders reach their maximum potential in Christ by building intimacy with God, growing in Christian character, developing and exercising their spiritual gifts, and discovering and pursuing God’s purposes for their lives and church communities.

• Cooperative efforts in the Body of Christ to proclaim the gospel more effectively, serve and uplift our communities, and address critical issues.

• Serving as role models and mentors for emerging leaders

• Practicing true Biblical leadership modeled on the person and practices of Jesus and informed by God’s written word.

• Equity and fairness in all interaction with emerging Christian leaders, regardless of denominational affiliation, gender, race, age, and socioeconomic status.

• Moral and financial integrity in all that we do and say

• Sustained excellence and quality in our training, resources, and administration.

• Wise stewardship and a high level of accountability

I hope this rectifies your perspective. Sorry to disappoint you, but we are basically straight down the Biblical line when it comes to our beliefs and praxis.

We encourage Change Agents participants to be like the Bereans and ‘examine the scriptures’ to see if what we teach is biblical. But more importantly, it is our desire that God’s word be practiced, especially by those in Christian leadership.

With appreciation,
PGYFSF (Please get your facts straight first)

PS. We forgive you for misjudging us.

Bert Watson

To the webmaster,
My name is Bert Watson and I have been serving Jesus flat out since 1976. I am a senior member of the Change Agents Leadership Team. You seem to have completely misunderstood and misrepresented our leadership training ministry – and this on an international blog. Change Agents is a unique training process that seeks to inspire and equip church-based youth leaders to become more Christ-like, to engage emerging generations more effectively with the gospel, to make authentic disciples of Jesus Christ, and to impact their communities through Spirit-led incarnational, holistic ministry. The word of God is central to our ministry focus – no compromise. Change Agents is led by a cross-section of Christian leaders and endorsed by the South African Christian Leadership Assembly, The Evangelical Alliance of South Africa, the National Leadership Development Forum, Heartlines, Youth for Christ, Scripture Union, Leaders for Africa, J-Life, Walk thru the Bible, and local churches all over South Africa. If you have issues with Roger Saner, you are more than welcome to dialogue with him. However, if you believe in integrity, you will practice some of that repentance you talk so much about, correct your erroneous comments and associations, and remove Change Agents artwork from your blog. Better yet, delete this thread…, and, in the future, do some research before you dishonour your brothers and sisters in Christ. I am sure you do not wish to take sides with the ‘accuser of the brethren’.

Yours in Christ,
Bert Watson
Director – Leaders for Africa
Change Agents Leadership Team

Bert Watson

And please be kind enough to correct my typo in line 1 if you choose to publish this. ‘having’ should be ‘have’. Thank you. BW

[AdMo: Change made to correct typo]

Amanda

PGYFSF

Glorifying God in all that we do by submitting to the Lordship of Jesus, obeying God’s word as revealed in the scriptures, being led and empowered by the Holy Spirit, and pursuing God’s Kingdom purposes.

Do you agree that God’s kingdom is being established here on earth? Here is Roger’s statement:

And equally, how do you get past this line in the Lord’s prayer – which the Church has conveniently forgotten over the last 200 years: “Your Kingdom come, on earth as it is in heaven.” That’s not an eschatalogical statement, that’s a prayer for it happening now. Inaugurated eschatalogy, if you want the technical term.

Do you agree with this spirit-led statement Roger made?:

If there is to be any peace in this world (and I hope I don’t have to make the case for why peace is a GOOD thing) then Christians and Muslims are going to have to figure it out. Not that that’s the only solution, but unless there is peace between these two great religions, the world will blow itself to smithereens.

What about this one?

The Emergent teaching (whatever that is) is not about all faiths leading to one God – I don’t know where you get that. I don’t know enough about the internal tensions with Islam and Buddhism to comment about them, but I know to judge them on the fruit they lead to, and one of the fruits of the spirit is peace. If a religion does not lead to peace, the Holy Spirit is not working within it. If your Christian faith does not lead you to be a peacemaker, same thing.

Bert Watson

The word of God is central to our ministry focus – no compromise.

What does the Word of God say about the good, pious Muslim who diligently follows his religion?

Roger

This is like a trying to have an adult conversation with a petulant 8 year old.

Or maybe it is talking enlightenment with somebody who does not meditate and who refuses to make that paradigm shift?

PGYFSF

Dear DTW, the Sword cuts both ways. I used a pseudonym, actually an ‘initialism’, because you do. You are DTW – discerning the world. I am PGYFSF – please get your facts straight first. I was just following your example. Sorry if you thought I was trying to dupe you. You are obviously quite intelligent and, I believe, well-meaning. I do not think you are stupid. However, no matter what I say, you have clearly made up your mind, so I will not bother you anymore with the facts. As Paul prayed in 1 Thess 3:12-13, may the Lord cause all of us to increase and abound in love for one another, and for all people, so that He may establish our hearts without blame in holiness before our God and Father at the coming of our Lord Jesus with all His saints.

Peter Veysie

I am first of all hoping that you are a brother or sister in Christ and that your defence of the gospel is for the sake of Jesus and not because you are a very sad and irritated man or woman. I am also sad that we can’t chat to you because you are anonymous, but heh if you need some healing or someone to chat to you have my email address. I am heading up Change Agents in South Africa and am the Senior Pastor of Ridgeway Ministries and you are so far from the truth of what we do, it is frightening. Speak to me if you are brave enough and I will give you the truth and “the truth will set you free”. Pete

Michael Anthony

D,

Chris Roseborough from Pirate Christian Radio was a host on Crosstalk Christian Radio last week.

http://www.crosstalkamerica.com/

This has thus far been the most articulate expose of the emergent heresy and a explanation of what is driving their – well, we cant call it doctrines because they are a constant moving target – call it beliefs.

Bob de Waay from Critical Issues Commentary http://cicministry.org/
has also done a fantastic job at discernment on this issue. He has a book called ‘The Emergent Church, undefining Christianity’

http://www.piratechristianradio.com/

Just my 10 cents

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