Ee-mmergency! Releasing Change Agents!

Change Agents - Christian youth - Roger Saner

Think new, act new …

“Change Agents is a youth leaders training conference. It is a place where youth leaders of diverse cultures come to discuss changing ministry in a changing world. Change Agents was originally an extension of the first SACLA conference – indeed, the first few Change Agent’s were also referred to as SACLA – as well as a successor to Youth for Christ’s National Youth Leaders Training Conference.

We’ve set up this site as a centre of conversation around ministry and the changing youth ministry landscape in South Africa; the leadership is also using it to host their discussions around the different areas of responsibility they must fulfill so that the August conference can happen.

We’d love your input too, since the discussion around youth ministry is not something reserved for a few elite people but a grassroots thing. The site is divided into groups – some of which are restricted to certain people to allow for privacy, and some of which are open to allow for conversation (we’re hoping to extend these to the Connect groups soon). We encourage you to join.”  [Emphasis added]

[DTW note:  oh, pick me, pick me, I have some input. How about preaching the Gospel of Jesus Christ as it was preached 2000 years ago and stop trying to change it by brainwashing little change agents.]

Roger Saner from EmergingAfrica, once part of the leadership team for Change Agents had this to say on his facebook setup regarding repentance of sin that telling someone to “Stop sinning and follow God” is almost an insulting statement” and “is NOT the gospel.” [Emphasis added]

Emerging Church ‘Change Agent’ Conversation in South Africa

As more people start reading Brian McLaren and John MacArthur they’re finding out about this thing called “The Emerging Church” which is either a very hopeful thing, or the biggest threat to Christianity the world has ever seen.

So, first up, this “Church” isn’t a church – it’s a conversation and a friendship between people who suspect something has gone deeply wrong with Western Christianity. Although some of the conversation might be depressing, ultimately it’s a hopeful participation in the rebuilding of the very architecture of Western Christianity.

Within South Africa, we know from our history that in spite of over 70% of the country being Christian, we managed to divorce our private faith from our public beliefs quite successfully, taking a long time to denouce structural evil (at least, this applies to the whities – others always knew that this thing was wrong). And what is more, we used Biblical justification for Apartheid…which means, as we move beyond that, we need to see the incorrect ways in which we approached (and used) the Bible…

Plus, we’re surrounded with enough people in poverty for whom “Stop sinning and follow God” is almost an insulting statement. What good does it do to tell someone they have life with God after they die, but do nothing to help them now? We suspect that this story is more self-serving and although clothed in the appearance of the Gospel, is not the Gospel[Emphasis added]

“It is beyond me how the church managed to get through the last 200 years without paying much attention to these lines in the Lord’s Prayer: ‘Your will be done ON EARTH as it is in heaven.'” N.T. Wright, 1st century scholar and New Testament theologian.

We haven’t “watered down the Gospel” as some accuse, in fact we would say that the Gospel already has been watered down to appeal to modern, individualistic minds. Now we get a chance to create something new as we go forward into the 21st century…

Roger Saner:    http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=2419328874

WHAT DOES THE BIBLE HAVE TO SAY ABOUT CHANGE AGENTS WHO ARE HELL BENT ON CHANGING THE GOSPEL.

Well Roger, lets see what the Bible has to say about repentance of sin; no matter if they are rich or poor,  no matter the time of day.  If you have a Bible please do go to the following verses and read along.

What is Sin?

Romans 8:7  7 because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so

Romans 8:3-4  3For what the Law could not do, weak as it was through the flesh, God did: sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and as an offering for sin, He condemned sin in the flesh,  4so that the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.

Should we be concerned about Sin?

Romans 6:23  23For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

How does God view those who lead others into sin?

Mark 9:42 42 Whoever causes one of these little ones who believe to stumble, it would be better for him if, with a heavy millstone hung around his neck, he had been cast into the sea.

Consequences of sin:

  • Death:   

Genesis 2:16-17   16The LORD God commanded the man, saying, “From any tree of the garden you may eat freely;   17but from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat from it you will surely die.”

  • Man’s shame and fear towards God.

Before the fall, Adam and Eve walked and talked with God. To us, how lucky they were. After they ate, they could not stand the sight of God, and felt ashamed in confronting God. To those who may take the Garden of Eden less literally than others, you can still see in yourself and others the shame of being around God when we know we’ve sinned.

  • All mankind is now sinners:  

Romans 5:12-14    12Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned-  13for until the Law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law.  14Nevertheless death reigned from Adam until Moses, even over those who had not sinned in the likeness of the offense of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come.

  • The Earth is also poisoned by sin.    

Genesis 3:17    17Then to Adam He said, “Because you have listened to the voice of your wife, and have eaten from the tree about which I commanded you, saying, ‘You shall not eat from it’;  Cursed is the ground because of you;  In toil you will eat of it.All the days of your life

Romans 8:20-21   20For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it, in hope.  21that the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God.

  • God’s wrath against sin:

Mankind was kicked out of the Garden of Eden by God for sinning, and was prevented from returning. God hates sin, and it was a while before one’s sins could be dealt with in the Mosaic laws.

Repentance of Sin is the only way to produce GOOD FRUIT:

Matthew 3:8 “Therefore bear fruit in keeping with repentance;

Repentance is a change of attitude and action, not just muttering:

Luke 3:8  8“Therefore bear fruits in keeping with repentance, and do not begin to say to yourselves, ‘We have Abraham for our father,’ for I say to you that from these stones God is able to raise up children to Abraham.

Restoration:  Example, The Prodigal Son:

Luke 15:21-22  21“And the son said to him, ‘Father, I have sinned against heaven and in your sight; I am no longer worthy to be called your son.’ 22“But the father said to his slaves, ‘Quickly bring out the best robe and put it on him, and put a ring on his hand and sandals on his feet;  23and bring the fattened calf, kill it, and let us eat and celebrate;  24for this son of mine was dead and has come to life again; he was lost and has been found.’ And they began to celebrate.

Confess sin – Promise of Forgiveness:

1 John 9-11  8If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us. 9If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar and His word is not in us.

Repent Repent Repent:

Luke 13:3  3“I tell you, no, but unless you repent, you will all likewise perish.

Matthew 4:17  17 From that time Jesus began to preach and say, “Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.”

Matthew 3:2  2 “Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.”

Great commission / Good News was that:

Mark 6:12  12They went out and preached that men should repent.

Acts 2:38 38Peter said to them, “Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Proverbs 14:12  12There is a way which seems right to a man,  But its end is the way of death.

Temptation turns to sin:

James 1:14-15 14But each one is tempted when he is carried away and enticed by his own lust.15Then when lust has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and when sin is accomplished, it brings forth death.

Repent, TURN FROM YOUR WICKED WAYS:

Ezekiel 18:23-31  23“Do I have any pleasure in the death of the wicked,” declares the Lord GOD, “rather than that he should turn from his ways and live? 24“But when a righteous man turns away from his righteousness, commits iniquity and does according to all the abominations that a wicked man does, will he live? All his righteous deeds which he has done will not be remembered for his treachery which he has committed and his sin which he has committed; for them he will die.25“Yet you say, ‘The way of the Lord is not right ‘ Hear now, O house of Israel! Is My way not right? Is it not your ways that are not right?26“When a righteous man turns away from his righteousness, commits iniquity and dies because of it, for his iniquity which he has committed he will die. 27“Again, when a wicked man turns away from his wickedness which he has committed and practices justice and righteousness, he will save his life. 28“Because he considered and turned away from all his transgressions which he had committed, he shall surely live; he shall not die.29“But the house of Israel says, ‘The way of the Lord is not right.’ Are My ways not right, O house of Israel? Is it not your ways that are not right? 30“Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, each according to his conduct,” declares the Lord GOD. “Repent and turn away from all your transgressions, so that iniquity may not become a stumbling block to you. 31“Cast away from you all your transgressions which you have committed and make yourselves a new heart and a new spirit! For why will you die, O house of Israel?

Ezekiel 33:11  11 Say to them, ‘As I live!’ declares the Lord GOD, ‘I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that the wicked turn from his way and live Turn back, turn back from your evil ways! Why then will you die, O house of Israel?’

Man’s ways contrast what God wants:

Ephesians 4:17-24  17So this I say, and affirm together with the Lord, that you walk no longer just as the Gentiles also walk, in the futility of their mind, 18being darkened in their understanding, excluded from the life of God because of the ignorance that is in them, because of the hardness of their heart;19and they, having become callous, have given themselves over to sensuality for the practice of every kind of impurity with greediness.20But you did not learn Christ in this way,21if indeed you have heard Him and have been taught in Him, just as truth is in Jesus,22that, in reference to your former manner of life, you lay aside the old self, which is being corrupted in accordance with the lusts of deceit,23and that you be renewed in the spirit of your mind,24and put on the new self, which in the likeness of God has been created in righteousness and holiness of the truth.

Ephesians 2:1-3  1And you were dead in your trespasses and sins,  2in which you formerly walked  according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience.3Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest.

Galatians 5:16  16 So I say, live by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the sinful nature.

Matthew 5:28-29  “But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart. If your right eye causes you to sin, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to be thrown into hell.”

Romans 8:5-9  Those who live according to the sinful nature have their minds set on what that nature desires; but those who live in accordance with the Spirit have their minds set on what the Spirit desires. The mind of the sinful man is death, but the mind controlled by the Spirit is life and peace; the sinful mind is hostile to God. It does not submit to God’s law, nor can it do so. Those controlled by the sinful nature cannot please God. You, however, are not controlled by the sinful nature but by the Spirit, if the Spirit of God lives in you

Ephesians 5:15-17  Be very careful, then, how you live, not as unwise but as wise, making the most of every opportunity, because the days are evil. Therefore, do not be foolish, but understand what the Lord’s will is.

Ephesians 5:8-10  For you were once in darkness, but now you are light in the Lord. Live as children of light (for the fruit of the light consists in all goodness, righteousness, and truth) and find out what pleases the Lord.

James 1:25  25But one who looks intently at the perfect law, the law of liberty, and abides by it, not having become a forgetful hearer but an effectual doer, this man will be blessed in what he does.

The Gift of God that comes with Repentance:

1 Peter 2:2  Like newborn babies, crave pure spiritual milk, so that by it you may grow up in your salvation, now that you have tasted that the Lord is good.

Psalms 119:104-105 I gain understanding from your precepts; therefore, I hate every wrong path. Your word is a lamp to my feet and a light for my path.

Psalms 16:11 You have made known to me the path of life; you will fill me with joy in your presence, with eternal pleasures at your right hand.

2 Peter 1:3-4  3seeing that His divine power has granted to us everything pertaining to life and godliness, through the true knowledge of Him who called us by His own glory and excellence.4For by these He has granted to us His precious and magnificent promises, so that by them you may become partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world by lust.

Romans 12:1-2  1Therefore I urge you, brethren, by the mercies of God, to present your bodies a living and holy sacrifice, acceptable to God, which is your spiritual service of worship. 2And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, so that you may prove what the will of God is, that which is good and acceptable and perfect.

MORE Warnings:

Isaiah 30:15  This is what the Sovereign Lord, the Holy One of Israel, says: “In repentance and rest is your salvation, in quietness and trust is your strength, but you would have none of it.”

Philippians 3:19  Their destiny is destruction, their god is their stomach, and their glory is their shame. Their mind is on earthly things.

2 Peter 2:21-22  It would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than to have known it and then to turn their backs on the sacred command that was passed on to them. Of them the proverbs are true: “A dog returns to its own vomit,” and “A sow that is washed goes back to wallowing in the mud.”

Luke 9:62  62But Jesus said to him, “No one, after putting his hand to the plow and looking back, is fit for the kingdom of God.”

How URGENT and IMPORTANT is repentance of sin?

Isaiah 55:6-7  Seek the Lord while he may be found; call on him while he is near. Let the wicked forsake his way and the evil man his thoughts. Let him turn to the Lord, and he will have mercy on him, and to our God, for he will freely pardon.

Romans 2:4 4Or do you think lightly of the riches of His kindness and tolerance and patience, not knowing that the kindness of God leads you to repentance?

Acts 17:30 In the past God overlooked such ignorance, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent.

James 5:19-20 19My brethren, if any among you strays from the truth and one turns him back, 20let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save his soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins.

Revelation 3:3  3‘So remember what you have received and heard; and keep it, and repent Therefore if you do not wake up, I will come like a thief, and you will not know at what hour I will come to you

Acts 2:38  38Peter said to them, “Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

2 Timothy 2:19  “The Lord knows those who are his,” and “everyone who confesses the name of the Lord must turn away from wickedness.”

Acts 3:19  “Repent, then, and turn to God, so that your sins may be wiped out, that times of refreshing may come from the Lord.”

There are many many many verses here for you Roger “Change Agent” Saner regarding sin and repentance of sin and the preaching of repentance of sin.  Repentance of sin through Jesus Christ is the foundation of the Gospel. 

You preach another message, one that tries to obliterate the foundation, the foundation that is Jesus Christ.  If you think that telling someone to repent of their sin is an insult then you are saying that Jesus is NOT the one and only mediator between man and God.  By saying this you are saying that Jesus Christ who died for us so that His blood will wash away our sin for those who believe is a lie, useless or an insult – By that one paragraph you have completely removed Jesus Christ out of the picture. 

You hold your head high, all smug, that you and your future change agent campers, “now get a chance to create something new”.  Well, newsflash!  You are not creating anything new, this is ancient knowledge already, just being made known again – like an old secret that comes out of the closet.  Since the beginning of time Satan has been trying to remove Jesus Christ in any which way he can.  If I am not mistaken he probably has a patent on the design.  So run along now and stop trying to reinvent the pentagram and say you had something to do with it. 

You are a youth pastor are you not?  When I was listing the countless verses above I felt terribly sorry for you.  So here is the Gospel of Jesus Christ.   Roger, repent of your sin, get on your knees before Jesus Christ the Son of God whom you INSULT and beg Him for forgiveness.  Your life is in HIS hands.  Not the other way around.

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Deborah (Discerning the World)

Deborah Ellish is the author of the above article. Discerning the World is an internet Christian Ministry based in Johannesburg South Africa. Tom Lessing and Deborah Ellish both own Discerning the World. For more information see the About this Website page below the comments section.

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Mark

Hi Danie,

Just so that you know the left hand menu system isn’t coming up on my browser (chrome) and I can’t see where the blogrolls disappeared to.

Interesting article above. Um, not exactly patient or longsuffering though. Did you do all the research on repentance yourself?

What’s the acronym SACLA for?

Mark

Discerning the World

Mark

Who is Danie?
Use Firefox
Research on repentance comes from the Bible.
Blogroll was under construction and become ‘recommended’
How patient do you have to be when it comes to telling someone to repent? 1 week? 1 year? 5 years? Just keep building that relationship until oneday…? Never?
Those names(books) with numbers behind them are called bible verses
SACLA is something Roger came up with. Quite frankly it makes no different in my life what it means.

Discerning the World

Mark

Ahh I see you are acquinted with Steve Khanya. He is Rogers ‘mentor’ or whatever. In fact I wrote an article about Steve who lumped born again Christians to the same category as those who started Inquisitions.

See above under RELATED POSTS FOR: Born Again Christians are Now Compared to Inquisitors of the Inquisitions

Roger Saner

SACLA stands for “South African Christian Leadership Assembly”. Its convenors are Dr Michael Cassidy, Bishop Lunga ka Siboto and Rev Moss Ntlha. The first time is was held was in 1979, and the second time was in 2003.

From the (www.sacla.za.net/public_html/3whossaclafor.htm)

This is just the second time the Church in South Africa has been called together to an assembly of this nature, the last one in 1979 contributed significantly to the miracle of the peaceful transition to full democracy in our beloved country. So, just as the Church played a key role in the political transformation of South Africa, the intention of SACLA 2003 is to challenge, enable and mobilise Christian leaders so that the Church in South Africa will fulfil its role in building the nation and extending the Kingdom of God.

Change Agents was the result of the youth track of SACLA, and a desire to provide training to youth leaders. It’s supported by African Enterprise, YFC, Heartlines and Scripture Union.

I didn’t “come up with” SACLA. I don’t run Change Agents either. It was my pleasure to be a part of the leadership team for a number of years, but my last input into the group (run by a group of diverse Christians) was last year. I currently host the website.

It doesn’t surprise me that Discerning the World didn’t do any basic research – facts aren’t important, only little attention-grabbing snippets that prove that all other Christians who don’t toe the line with the DTW theology are apostate. The only reason I’m mentioned here is my statement:

Plus, we’re surrounded with enough people in poverty for whom “Stop sinning and follow God” is almost an insulting statement. What good does it do to tell someone they have life with God after they die, but do nothing to help them now? We suspect that this story is more self-serving and although clothed in the appearance of the Gospel, is not the Gospel.

There is context to this statement, which I stand by, and which I’ll be happy to explain to anyone who’s interested.

For the record, DTW did not try to contact me in person before posting this entry.

Roger Saner

What a pity, I was hoping for a Christmas card. Maybe I’ll get one anyway, but only for the next 3 years, because that’s when Jesus is coming back, apparently.

Roger Saner

DTW: Ah, I appreciate you changing your blog post to read “Change Agents is/was run by Roger Saner” which is a step in the right direction (your first claim was that I ran it), but still not true. I have never run Change Agents, but was part of the leadership team. According to your Rules, you want to direct your readers into truth, and do not tolerate blatant lying. Therefore, will you retract/change your statement that I ran Change Agents?

I notice you’ve also updated your blog post to include points of fact which I wrote in my #comment-1148 (first comment). It’s standard practice on blogs to write [UPDATE: Changed to reflect blah blah blah] when editing, so that readers know what was originally written and what was edited (helps keep the conversation accurate, ya know).

AdMo

Dear Rogerrrrrr (Mr truthful himself)

I am in the process of making amandements (and putting a ‘note’) as for the rest of what you said. I have 14 pages open tying to get images back online. And having to make notes in other places where comments went missing. *yawn*

You should be more worried about what God thinks about your comment “Stop sinning and follow God” is almost an insulting statement””
than worrying about who was the head cheerleader sorry team leader for change agents.

Roger Saner

AdMo: thanks for making the correction. I’d be happy to explain my comment to you, but I’m afraid that if you have the same mode of engagement as DTW, all you bother to do is point fingers without wanting to understand where the person is coming from. If you’re different, I’ll be happy to engage.

Roger Saner

Lol, you crack me up, Discerning the World! Everything else aside, you have a pretty snarky sense of humour which I’ve grown to appreciate. ::wipes tears from eyes::

Re: me “trying to convert” AdMo – I *actually* said, “I’ll be happy to engage [with you].” Engagement = conversion in your world? No wonder you don’t want to talk!

To respond to your comment, “you did not say anything about any of the verses I mentioned on repentance of sin” – you’re quite right, I haven’t. Last time I checked, this website wasn’t about those people you accuse of being apostate responding to you. From your perspective, you exist to point out error, pointing people to the Bible, and then you move on. You don’t care about responses or about any kind of ongoing engagement (katartizo, anyone?).

If this were to change, I’d reconsider saying something about those verses you mentioned on repentance of sin. Until then, I’ll continue counting the days (3-and-a-half years is it?) until the NWO starts killing Christians (oh, and on the off chance that you are wrong about that, how about a friendly bet? If you and I are still alive and on this planet in 3-and-a-half years + 1 day, will you fulfill my wildest dreams and meet me for coffee? Nothing would make me more excited!).

Roger Saner

And therefore, given that you believe me to be a trickster, what am I left to say?

The reason I avoided commenting on the verses is, oh forget it – I’ve already said why.

Pooh Bear

I thought I’d add my 2 cents worth as I happened to attend Change Agents 2 years ago, and I have to disagree with this article! The weekend was a really good one, with young Christians from all over the country, coming together to learn, share, worship and connect, and there was a genuine focus on Christ. It was not subversive in any way (as implied by DTW, “and stop trying to change it using brainwashed little ‘change agents'”). I’ve been to many church/youth camps and this one was one of the most equipping and positively challenging that I’ve been to. Some of the activities that were planned for us were really helpful- making us more conscious of keeping God at the center of every day life. They also helped in making us more aware of how we can be more than just “Sunday Christians”. So I was rather surprised to see such criticism of change agents. Can whoever wrote that article tell me what the basis was for these negative views of a positive event?

Pooh Bear

Ok, then it was a little disjointed as Roger’s comments and Change Agents are two separate debates. Change Agents had absolutely nothing New Age about it. Wiki says the New Age: “seeks “Universal Truth” and the attainment of the highest individual human potential. It combines aspects of cosmology, astrology, esotericism, alternative medicine, music, collectivism, sustainability, and nature. New Age spirituality is characterized by an individual approach to spiritual practices and philosophies, while rejecting religious doctrine and dogma.” Honestly, there was nothing like this at the Change Agents weekend. I’m happy to discuss Roger’s quote as a separate thread, but I don’t see how it relates.

Pooh Bear

A second point I’d like to make is that I made some good friends on that weekend, learned quite a bit, was inspired, and it was really good to see the ethnic/racial unity there! So my question is, do you really think it’s helpful to dissuade people from attending such weekends? I think we need a lot more of these in SA, because if the church can’t get it (unity etc) right, how can we expect to see change in the rest of the country? It begins at home, and that’s what Change Agents recognizes.

Roger Saner

You see, DTW, you can’t just come in and make unsubstantiated claims about a conference you were never at and expect people to ignore everything you get wrong and only respond to that which you want them to respond to.

I know that’s a completely new way for you to think, and it might be a bit hard. So try this: separate me (whom you have lots of problems with) from Change Agents (which you misrepresent). Apologise for saying that Change Agents is about brainwashing people. Then, create a separate post about me and my offensive quote.

It’s not a lot to ask. For the sake of truth and accuracy, and of knowing your enemy (at least get THAT right!).

Because, unfortunately for you, there are going to be people who find this post, read what you said, and say, “Wait a second, I was AT Change Agents, and it’s nothing like DTW says it’s like!” The truth will out, even if it’s Pooh.

And if you do that, then I’ll tell you why I made that statement.

Seems easy enough. Deal?

Pooh Bear

DTW, with all due respect, I feel like you’re picking out bits of what I say, shredding those, and in so doing, missing the point I’m making. First of all, you can’t clump CA,Amahoro and Emergent together (by the way, “Emergent” and “Emerging” are not necessarily the same). Change Agents wasn’t about listening to one guy preaching his views the whole weekend. It was a collection of varied talks, activities, videos, dialogues etc, which were geared to make us think about the same truths in a fresh way, and to go out and live it out in a way that makes us more effective “God-agents” (if you will) in this post-modern society!

Second, you haven’t substantiated your claim that CA is “New Agey”. I don’t find your logic sufficient. Basically you’re saying (and please correct me if I’m wrong):
1) Emerging church = New Age (
2) Roger = an emerging church proponent
3) Roger was involved in change agents
Therefore Change Agents = New Age!

Finally, I did not say it was a good weekend only because I made friends. That list of positives that I mentioned was an outworking of an event that was geared for change – changing the individual, changing groups, changing society etc.

Can you demonstrate what you think the message of Change Agents was? I never once heard any teachings that you claim were taught there. By the way, is this article about Change Agents or about Roger, because it seems you keep going back to Roger, without mentioning CA at all!

I would actually like to move on to discussing Roger’s quote, but I feel we need to clear up this misconception about CA first. Please would you be so kind as to address the three points I’ve made here, and note that I’m not attacking you in any way. I’m not trying to change your mind or your views – I simply want to have a reasonable discussion with you, and I’m happy to concede on any of these issues if you can substantiate your claims.

Roger Saner

What’s that? DTW ignored some clear points and requests for clarification, and picks up on the only thing she can possibly disagree on in Pooh’s comment? Where you *could* have answered something, you chose not to. As a dear critic of mine likes to say: “Swimming, swimming, just keep swimming…”

Go on, DTW, confirm that your logic is indeed the following:
1) Emerging church = New Age (
2) Roger = an emerging church proponent
3) Roger was involved in change agents
Therefore Change Agents = New Age!

I double-chocolate-milkshake dare you!!!

Pooh Bear

*Sigh* DTW, you just did it again. The only thing you responded to was my “by the way” in brackets!! I was referring to this comment from Wiki, “Some have noted a difference between the terms ’emerging’ and ‘Emergent.’ Whilst emerging is a wider, informal, church-based, global movement, Emergent refers to an official organization, the Emergent Village, associated with Brian McLaren, and has also been called the ‘Emergent stream.'” We can discuss that too, but please let’s first finish discussion ONE!

(From now on I’m going to try and leave out anything that does not directly pertain to my point. Oops, maybe I shouldn’t have said this).

Let me rephrase my previous post in 3 simple questions:
1) Just because Roger was part of CA, does that make it emergent/emerging?
2) Can you show me ONE example of how CA is New Age?
3) What do you think is the central message given at a Change Agents weekend?

I would be grateful if you could answer these three questions. Thanks!

Pooh Bear

DTW, you are a master of boxing! Quite impressive actually. So with your reasoning, Change Agents=Buddhism=Islam=New Age=Science=Art=Emergent=Roger Saner=Hinduism=Robert Mugabe ?!?!

Quoting verses does not prove your point. I believe in the Bible, and the same verses you do, but I don’t believe these things are all New Age.

Pooh Bear

DTW, you give me the impression you don’t care about what I say, and you’re not interested in listening to my point. It makes feel like this is a futile discussion, but I have this glimmer of belief that somewhere deep down, behind the facade of quoting Bible verses to avoid engagement, there is some ability to reason, discuss and listen to someone else’s point of view, in a civilized manner. Are you going to prove me wrong in your reply??

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