Satan the Trickster – Embracing the Emerging Snake

trickster nick paton

Satan the Trickster – Embracing the Emerging Snake

Nic Paton from (soundandsilence.wordpress.com) has this thing about being credited for his work, his thoughts, his beliefs.  He has been making comments on my blog telling me that he can’t find Jesus in me or my writings/blog because I just don’t want to agree with his lying, trickster personality.

After I wrote my article:  Born Again Christians are Now Compared to Inquisitors of the Inquisitions based on a post written by Steve (khanya.wordpress.com) who lovingly compared the teaching of the Word of God and those who preach the truth to Inquisitors of the Inquisition.  My blog was bombarded with very very very angry Emergents who lambasted me for disagreeing with Steve.  See Emergents are allowed to make the most horrendous comments about born again Christians and Jesus Christ the Son of God but we are not allowed to disagree.

Nic Paton said to me:

“The way you are dealing with my comments, the absolute willful misinterpretation of my freely offered thoughts, the stubborn refusal to converse, your gleeful burning down of your own straw man arguments, the ongoing infantile sarcasm, the complete lack of credit given to anyone who you disgree with, your deeply flawed misunderstanding of philosophy and theology, and your rote bible bashing, is to me, a travesty of Christian witness.

I’m trying, Deborah, to find the God in all this, I’m trying to believe the best, but at the moment, I’m just not seeing the Jesus you boast about being so in love with in these words.”    –  2009/06/26 at 3:06pm

Well Nic, besides the fact that we will never know when you are telling the truth.   You are right about one thing and that is I will never agree with anything you have to say.   But you are wrong on another because I sure will credit you for everything you have to say. 

The Holy Trickster by Nic Paton

Featuring The Jester-Fool, Coyote-Jackal, Br’er Rabbit, Homo Ludens, Hermes-Mercury, Prometheus, and the Serpent….

I first became aware of the Trickster when at some point in my 30’s, when in order to survive, I was forced to wear a Grey Suit. See, I had been a free spirited musician until that point, and “Suits” represented the Recording Industry and Accountants, who were everything we (the chosen ones) despised. So in the aftermath of the collapse of my artistic career, and with it my notions of God – so earnestly had I taken my vocation – I was joining THE ENEMY. I was succumbing to necessity, I was abandoning the “Keeping of the Faith” (To quote the Wayne’s World rendition of Jim Morrison, who was spared all this by his in/glorious early demise).

So I headed off tie and all, into the City of London, to sell my time to the world’s largest bank. And I thought to myself, “This is kind of cool”, because in my heart I knew I was not in fact becoming one of the enemy, but rather to quote Bruce Cockburn “Dancing in the Dragons Jaws”, more like a spy. I might have appeared to be another hi finance techno-drone, but I realise now, I was in fact an incarnation of the trickster.

To quote mythographer Joseph Campbell, in “The Masks of God Vol 1”:

“This ambiguous, curiously fascinating figure of the trickster appears to have been the chief mythological character of the paleolithic world of story. A fool, and a cruel, lecherous cheat, and epitome of the principle of disorder, he is nevertheless the culture-bringer also. And he appeared under many guises : Coyote, Great Hare, Br’er Rabbit, Raven, Jay, Reynard the Fox, but also, on a more serious plane, he appears as the devil.”

At that time I started having dreams. In one I was (to quote my notes directly) “being sucked down with all manner of dogs”, into a vortex of mud or sand, heading for the funnel and ultimately, the darkness of the earth. Towards the bottom, I saw a figure standing watch over the pit, with a Jackals head and a human body. I awoke just as I took in what I thought was my last breath.

In another dream, a crazed knife wielding gypsy near a pool with an incomplete flyover in its midst, threw a knife at my wife, and missed; I reacted with rage at this wild, act of irresponsibility.

With the help of some Jungian “divination”, I found out that the Jackal Headed figure was Anubis, Egyptian guardian of the dead. And via the gypsy, I came to appreciate the presence in my mythical life of Hermes, a primary source of this ethos in Greek mythology.

Now Hermes is pretty multi-faceted. He is at once guardian of boundary stones (herms), communication, sport, music and ultimately a pretty shifty figure. From him we get hermeneutics (translation of ideas across cultural boundaries) and in his Roman guise Mercury, the postal insignia with the winged helmet.

The interesting thing for me was, having grown into adulthood characterised by charismatic evangelical piety and its worldview, how this trickster found a place alongside some very powerful “medicine”: the Evil Snake, and the overconfident, unambiguous “clarion call of truth”.

To be less obscure, I am referring to these 2 characteristics of my early belief system:

  • Monotheism’s dualism: christian theological orthodoxy sees Satan as the serpent in the garden having caused mans original sin via Eve’s temptation. The Jewish view of Satan is slightly less polarised, seeing him as an advocate / adversary to the law, rather than a semi-omnipotent being of dread and the father of all evil. And the third member of monotheism – Islam, doesn’t seem that different to the christian view regarding dualising good and evil.
  • Naive Sincerity:  The importance of being earnest – values such as “truth” and “integrity” were deemed absolutely crucial. In this Newtonian world – a predictable machine presided over by a God of Order –  ambiguity was eschewed and all sorts of logical hoops were jumped though to maintain “consistency”. This is not so much a problem with christianity per se as with Greek reductionist thinking. Is our Greek inheritance a good thing? – thoroughly dualistic, yet richly imbued in myth; and a tricky question.

So I rejoice at the presence of the Trickster in a barren land of closed thought, for quite apart from being the bringer of death and destruction, he in fact is a catalyst for life and salvation. I now look at Jesus as embodying (amongst all things divine) this trickster, as well.

  • “Be as wise/sly as serpents and as harmless a doves”. In this metaphor, the serpent is not an outlaw, but something to be actively embraced.
  • “Don’t let your left hand know what your right hand is doing”: Conjurers of the world, unite in Christ!
  • “Become as little children”: engage in play, awe, and the space opened up by ambiguity.
  • “I will make myself more foolish in their eyes” – David, shamanic worshipper and “apple of G-d’s eye”.
  • “I become a fool for Christ” – here Paul elevates the Jester role, acknowledging that it is not the highly evolved adult, but those without guile, who will experience G-d.

You may be saying, this is madness; this is exactly what we have come away from – deception and falsehood. I can sympathise with your confusion, because I share it. I too have looked askance at anyone delving into such shadowy arts.

But I am coming to see the Trickster no so much as a threat, but a gift. In fact, I see him as quite central to the core christian truth of incarnation, as well as central to all creativity.

As I now see it, the very call to incarnation involves the trickster. Incarnation can be described as “being in the world but not of it”. All people having undertaken a spiritual path, especially one involving reorienting oneself in the world, will know the difficulty of staying grounded and yet striving for transcendence. All manner of things get in the way, rationalism, craving, habit, apathy, materialism, fear. To live “in the spirit” can be a very difficult task.

The tendency in the search for “holiness” or “purity” is usually to separate our world into the secular/worldly/carnal and the sacred/heavenly/spiritual. We have immense difficulty being “in the world” when we refocus our inner life on the transcendent beyond.

I suggest that this is where the trickster comes to assist us. His realm includes ambiguity, irony, and play, incompleteness and chaos, holding in tension and suspending belief, generosity and cruelty, imagination, flexibility and cunning shifting of shape, the boundaries between life and death, and making connections where they are not supposed to be.

Clearly the trickster has the potential to destroy. Engaging him is to take a risk. It is the liminal area between right and wrong that is his playground. We should never say as an excuse “The trickster made me do it.” It is up to us to learn what we can from him but never to naively give him our heart.

There are totemic trickster figures in many of the more animistic cultures; additionally clowns and jesters, comedians and conjurers, and most if not all practitioners of art play this subversive role in society. Not to forget negotiators and peacemakers; even politicians, theirs being the “art of the possible”, despite their common failings.

Joseph Campbell notes

“They represent, from the point of view of the masters of decorum, the chaos principle, the principle of disorder, the force careless of taboos and shattering bounds. But from the point of view of the deeper realms of being from which the energies of life ultimately spring, this principle is not to be despised.”

And maverick Bruce Cockburn, again, in his rambunctious “Maybe The Poet” observes

Male female slave or free
Peaceful or disorderly
Maybe you and he will not agree
But you need him to show you new ways to see

Don’t let the system fool you
All it wants to do is rule you
Pay attention to the poet
You need him and you know it

What I am concerned with here is the potential of the poet, the prophet, and the shaman, to usher in holiness. To “shatter bounds” and bring us new ways to see.

As we focus on the task of apprehending or worshiping the Divine, wrestle with the complexities or truth, or simply seek to live life more fully, we should imaginatively and openly engage the services of this mythical “holy trickster”.

Source:  soundandsilence.wordpress.com

Some comments from the bottom of the article:

liquidlight said  March 12, 2008 @ 1:03 pm

Nic, i really enjoyed this post. from the “trickster made me do it” title of a future classic something, to the concept of re-embracing the snake, to the dangerous twilight of trickster-space…

i found it interesting that you found elements of the trickster in both Christ and satan. there exists a strange and taboo area of mystery, namely the commonality between Christ and His supposed nemesis, DIE DUIWEL!. they are both described as the star of the morning/morning star and share the same numerological value in the kabbalistic system – which in their minds, suggests a deep connection.

i have my doubts that satan and lucifer are the same beings but that’s another story.

a wonderfully ranging & useful post.

Roger Saner said March 17, 2008 @ 4:23 pm

Wow – if there was a prize for brilliant blog entries, I’d give it to you for this one!

Andrew said March 12, 2008 @ 4:44 pm

I have never delved into the concept and myth of the trickster and must thank you for creating a fascination for this demigod charlatan. I will be dwelling on this and respond shortly. My mind is going in the direction of ” in a Fool’s Paradise, the trickster/ jester would be king” and the symbiotic relationship between Trickster and Trickstee.

Thanks for enriching my Imagination.

Anthony Paton said  June 27, 2008 @ 11:44 am

Hi Nic and Friends

Tying this one into an earlier subject- shamanism and KhoiSan culture, I thought it might be worth mentioning that in KhoiSan belief systems you are unable to access the Supreme Deity except through /Kaggen (The Trickster). /Kaggen is capable of assuming many forms, but one of the most widely transmitted was the form of Mantis. This resulted in the interpretation by whites (particularly Afrikaaners) that the ‘bushmen’ and ‘hotentots’ worshipped the Praying Mantis- and hence the poppular Afrikaans name for a Praying Mantis of ‘hotnotsgod’. I have a very ambivalent realtionship to this word as it is both very derisive and very witty.

With deeper understanding of the sources (such as Bleek, Orpen etc.) one can surmise that /Kaggen could in fact have the form of any creature, and not only a Mantis. In itself, this explains how the KhoiSan belief system is both animistic and pantheistic. These are two of the “theisms” with which I have the highest sympathy and identification, and may partially explain the attraction for me of KhoiSan history and culture. /Kaggen as the intercessor and proxy for the Ultimate Deity has messianic or “Christ-like” qualities, but as a deceiver has “Satan-like” qualities. As I understand it though, the purpose of the deception is to create an awareness that as any material being may be a proxy for the sacred and divine, that all sentient beings by extension should wisely be treated as though they are sacred and divine. It was thus that the eland was both the highest food source and the supreme spiritual creature.

Christians may find it bizarre that a group of people should desire to symbolically consume the body of God, but that of course is exactly what the act of communion represents as well.

Please share:

Deborah (Discerning the World)

Deborah Ellish is the author of the above article. Discerning the World is an internet Christian Ministry based in Johannesburg South Africa. Tom Lessing and Deborah Ellish both own Discerning the World. For more information see the About this Website page below the comments section.

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Ryan Peter

Hey Deborah, Nic and readers here.

We all know that John 3:16 says that whoever believes in Jesus will not perish but have eternal life.

A Christian is someone who believes IN JESUS, even though they might believe some wrong things about the Bible or Scriptures.

My point is that, whether you like it or not, both Nic and and you, Deborah, believe in Jesus and you both have no choice but to love each other, as per Christ’s command. A Christian is not distinguished necessarily by WHAT they believe or HOW they talk, but whether or not they believe in Jesus. This is the bottom line. Entire generations lived under Catholic rule and didn’t know better, doing all sorts of things I’m sure you would deem heretical. Yet they were still Christians and still saved, because it’s about believing in Jesus (unless you want to relegate generations of people to hell because their theology was off, even though they most certainly believed in Jesus for their salvation!).

So, Deborah, you might want to polarize yourself from Emergents in such an extreme way but you are actually not following a Biblical principle from doing so. I, myself, am not emergent (nor fundamentalist) but if you believe in Jesus and I believe in Jesus I have to love you whether I like it or not. You need to do the same with Nic, and he to you.

More directly, I think your misunderstandings are around language and use of words. Nic likes metaphor and poetry. You’re taking his use of the word ‘trickster’ and projecting your own meaning of what that means over Nic’s post.

If I say the sentence “Go to the bank” that means a number of different things. For you, it might mean go to the local financial institution. For another, it may mean go to the river bank. This is just an example of how words carry different meanings, so in this case you need to first try and understand exactly what Nic means by Trickster before you assume he means Satan. Then you can discuss things more fruitfully and edifyingly.

For blessed are the peacemakers!

AriseMyLove

Dear Ryan Peter:

The Bible teaches us that even the demons “believe in Jesus”…

To say that simply to “believe in Jesus” is the foundation point for people is ridiculous.

Believing in Jesus and doing what He commands are two completely different things. The difference is salvation or eternal Hellfire, so this is not a trivial conversation.

Jesus warns us sternly against all manner of false teachings, false prophecy and false doctrine because the essence of the Gospel is that He died for our sins. If we believe that, then and only THEN, will we decide to repent and change our lives and “Deny ourselves, pick up our cross and follow HIm”.

See, Ryan Peter, demons cannot and do not “pick up their Cross” and Follow Jesus. Yet, they believe and know who He is.

You need to go and study and show yourself approved unto a Holy God, Ryan Peter. You are inadvertently leading people down a primrose path to Hell with your lukewarm idea of Christ. Sorry to seem “harsh” but get with the program, RP.

AriseMyLove

Chad:

I understand your distinction between the Bible and The Word; I am sorry if I linked you — did I? — with the person who was quoting Jung and Campbell with such abandon.

You are barkin’ up the wrong tree if you think I am into the letter of the Law.

My concerns as a charismatic apologist are that no one adds to the Word of God any false teachings as per the NAR or the secularist mythomush views of Carl Jung.

Other than that, I don’t know how your name got into the argument, except inadvertently.

The modern tendency among unknowing heretics is to add to the Word or elevate modern prophecy or modern teachings to the level of the Word…
very subtle and very dangerous problems. Most Christians are so “Minds shut/spirits open” these days that they don’t realize the dangerous pit they are falling into… for eternity.

Discerning The World

Nic

>>> Also you are jumping on the bandwagon with your assumptions that I do not study both the bible and those sources I choose to use.

We have no doubt you use the bible. We have no doubt either that your other sources are of the occult. You combine the two to form new ideas that end as new knowledge and new revelations that falls OUTSIDE of the Word of God. Your occult writings are an abomination unto God.

Peter Jamas

“With the help of some Jungian “divination”, I found out that the Jackal Headed figure was Anubis, Egyptian guardian of the dead. And via the gypsy, I came to appreciate the presence in my mythical life of Hermes, a primary source of this ethos in Greek mythology.”

First you seek after divination and from this you come to appreciate the presence ‘in your mythical life’ of Hermes.

“So I rejoice at the presence of the Trickster in a barren land of closed thought, for quite apart from being the bringer of death and destruction, he in fact is a catalyst for life and salvation. I now look at Jesus as embodying (amongst all things divine) this trickster, as well.”

You say that you ‘rejoice’ at the ‘presence’ of the Trickster (Satan: bringer of death and destruction) because he is in ‘fact’ as catalyst for (life and salvation). Satan is the one who starts the process of leading us to salvation; he is the catalyst as you say
Because of this you now look at Jesus as embodying Satan as well. Amongst other diving things. What other divine things. You mean other gods. God embodies Satan amongst other divine beings; the gods of other faiths not just the Christian faith.

I am going to stop there. You can spell it out and try to assure us that you ‘believe’ in Jesus Christ as Lord, that He is the Father and the Father in him. But you fail to end your sentence with: and Satan embodies Jesus Christ amongst other divine things as well that Satan is in the Father and the Father in Satan.

Will I accept that?

Never.

Deut 18,10-12

10 “There shall not be found among you anyone who makes his son or his daughter pass through the fire, one who uses divination, one who practices witchcraft, or one who interprets omens, or a sorcerer, 11 or one who casts a spell, or a medium, or a spiritist, or one who calls up the dead.” 12 For whoever does these things is detestable to the LORD; and because of these detestable things the LORD your God will drive them out before you.

Ryan Peter

Hey AriseMyLove,

Actually, the scripture you’re probably thinking of is James 2:19:

“You believe that God is one; well and good. Even the demons believe that – and tremble with fear.”

The Scripture doesn’t say demons believe in Jesus. What it says is not the same as “believing in Jesus” which means you put your trust in and you wholly rely on Jesus.

The demons don’t “believe in Jesus”. They believe that God is one. In fact, I could perhaps say that they believe the FACTS of Jesus but don’t believe in the PERSON, which was my point.

Demons don’t pick up their cross and follow Jesus because they don’t follow Jesus or believe in Him.

Now, if following what Jesus commands gets me away from hellfire then what does His blood cover? Why do I need His blood if I can just do what He commands to get me away from hellfire? You seem to be muddling up different aspects of salvation. The Gospel says that good works don’t get you to heaven.

Ryan Peter

Hey DTW

Lol, the point of that post was to show that the logic of the guy was effectively making the Gospel into a thing of good works get you to heaven. Now that fits the context of Galatians perfectly. If you disagree then it’ll be cool to see why, from Scripture, you disagree.

But here you actually haven’t really said anything about my comment around believing in Jesus qualifying a Christian. What do you think about that?

AriseMyLove

Chad, I see now where I wrote you…

You criticized me for attempting to equate “The Word” with “the Bible” and then went on to accuse me of legalism or “living by the letter of the Law”…

Instead I’ll open your mind to what I meant to say but did not write…

ANYONE WHO ADDS TO THE GOSPEL or the NEW COVENANT which is the New TESTAMENT which is an AGREEMENT or CONTRACT God has with His true people, is in danger because…

… to add to a contract is to revise it, change it, distort it, make mincemeat of it, and basically disregard the Holiness of God’s Son, who is the contract, who IS the NEW WINE who IS the Word made Flesh.

That better, Chad?

The Eternal Word is a contract.

Oh, and just incase you might want to sneak around the issue of what is the Word and what is not the Word…

remember this, Chad.

The Old Testament Prophets and the New Testament Apostles had one thing in common that NO modern Christian will be able to duplicate, inherit or replicate in their walk today…

The gift of Infallibility.

That’s right. So Paul Peter John, had the gift of INFALLIBILITY to Write the Word of God. Their words are part of the covenant, or testament, or agreement with God. Combined with the Old Testament Prophets, who wrote the Old Testament, they are the…

FOUNDATION OF THE PROPHETS and APOSTLES that is set by the CHIEF CORNERSTONE, CHRIST, and this foundation is already laid, and laid down once.

We are just builders upon that foundation.

However, if you investigate what a cornerstone does you will realize that it sets the angles and perimeters and borders of not only the foundation of a building, but also the rest of the building.

Jesus is saying that because He is the chief cornerstone, this means that none of the Emergent or NAR weirdo experiences or teachings that go “beyond” what is written in the NT are of God.

Got that? If they go outside “what is written” they are not of God.

And you and I and anyone who claims Christ has a duty to rebuke, exhort, and discern and judge anyone who goes “beyond what is written”…

Indeed John tells us not to fellowship with anyone such as that

Charismatics especially need to get back into the beauty of the Word.

nic paton

“AriseMyLove”
I invite you to comment on the original post: [deleted url by dtw]

You make some points that are worth responding to.

However you do it with such condescention that I am forced to wonder what you are afraid of? Why such ire against me? I am nowhere claiming that Jung or Campbell are without fault. If you read further in my blog you will see this.

Also you are jumping on the bandwagon with your assumptions that I do not study both the bible and those sources I choose to use. You seem like an intelligent person, so play fair if you wnt to be taken for that.

nic paton

Peter
Please show me how you come to the conclusion that “Satan and Jesus Christ are incarnations ech other”.

In case you need it spelt out, let me assure you that I believe that Jesus Christ is Lord, and that he is in the Father and the Father in him.

Will you accept that?

nic paton

You are obviously implying that I quoted Campbell and Jung with “abandon”. This is very inaccurate. I quote them very specifically after reading them and critiquing them from my understanding of scripture .. I call it intellectual discernment.

Your near hysteria concerning these writers implies your have unresolved issues and are not in a plce of peace about the Lordship of Christ. If you were, you could let them be in their error.

We can disagree but at least stop your condescention towards me – you actually know nothing about how I live my life.

What is your real name?

AriseMyLove

Nic:

No hysteria about Jung or Campbell, i simply did my senior thesis on them back as an undergrad and was astonished at the influence they had on our culture.

We are to be “apologists” for Christ and “pull down strongholds and every argument that resists the knowledge of God”…

“Leaving Campbell and Jung be” isn’t being a good apologist for the Lord.

Jung’s doctrines have poisoned many many Christians and make Christ out to be a myth.

It’s good to have intellectual discernment but we discern by the standard of the Word of God. Or at least, that’s what the Word teaches that we should do. Taking the yardstick of the Word to Jung and Campbell is an important exercise for modern Christians in any sort of creative field.

Chad

We are to be “apologists” for Christ and “pull down strongholds and every argument that resists the knowledge of God”…

Interesting mission statement you have adopted for yourself, Arise.

Can I direct you to verse one of that same chapter? “I myself, Paul, appeal to you by the meekness and gentleness of Christ – I who am humble when face to face with you, but bold toward you when I am away” (2 Cor. 10:1).

The difference between you and Paul is that Paul had a personal relationship with the people he was addressing and he also knew that they had personal relationships with the people that were in need of discipline and correction and rebuke. They KNEW the fruit (or lack thereof) of the people in question. But above all else, Paul was bound to the rule of love, for without love he would sound like a clanging gong.

Do you consider yourself a minister of reconciliation, arise? Do you deny God’s Word in that same letter to the Corinthians (chapter 5) where Paul exhorts all of us to be ministers of reconciliation rather than division? Just as Christ has for all the world? Or is this something you can conveniently decide not to do when it suits you?

Chad

[DELETED BY DTW] – Everytime you complain about “me the owner of here blog” in your comments I will deleted your entire comment. Use it, don’t use it.

Discerning The World

Oh here we go again….it’s like being stuck on spin cycle. Aroung and around and around…

Discerning The World

Rule of Love, Law of Love…

Chad, what do you consider intolerace?

a) Saying that a good Muslim, Jew and atheist are lost, no matter how many good works they did or how compassionate they where, and that God’s wrath abides on them?
b) Telling someone that if they don’t repent of their sin they will preish?
c) Saying that all faiths are not compatilbe because the Word of God is not the same as other religions and never will be?
d) all of the above

Chad

DTW – al you have to do is actually engage the meat of the post rather than dismiss it with more fluff or deleting me. And by the way, your *qualifying* what reconciliation means is not an answer. Paul does not qualify it but expands it – Just as God through Jesus has reconciled ALL things (do you know what ALL means?) so to are we to be ministers of reconciliation.

By the way, thanks for deleting my other post. I will post it on emergingafrica along with everything else you delete of mine in order to show that the things you delete are not rude or disrespectful of you and this site but are actually questions and thoughts that you just simply refuse to engage with. Perhaps out of fear of being seen as wrong?

Chad

DTW –
Please. If you are going to ask me questions then before I even begin to address you I want your word that you will not delete another comment of mine. I am not going to spend my time and energy responding to someone who has shown me no respect and has not once engaged seriously with anything written by me or my friends.
Are you willing to have an honest discussion where respect is shown between if not brothers and sisters in Christ than at least adults? Are you capable of at least recognizing that you may not have all the answer but that God could be speaking through even us emergents? If God can speak through a donkey is it possible God is speaking through me? 🙂

I will await your reply and then, if you are willing to actually be a gracious host on your blog I’d be happy to answer your question. Otherwise, I will just post these comments at another site.

peace.
Chad

Chad

Amanda,

[deleted sentence by DTW, reason: advertisting. If you want to advertise your Emergie friends blog, I’ll be happy to provide him plenty of advertising, you don’t need to do it.]

You are very selective in your picking certain passages from scripture to support the sort of Jesus you have constructed – one that permits and even glories in your judgmentalism and division.

One of the chief complaints the so-called “religious” had about Jesus was that he ate with sinners, whores and tax-collectors (the scum of society – the traitors of the faith). Do you deny this? I find it interesting that you did not quote those many passages that speak of Jesus befriending such people. Jesus did not come to condemn but to save. Agreed?

Quoting Matt 7 does not serve you in the least. For starters, Jesus is talking about judgement on the last day – not today. But even more important than that, it is JESUS WHO IS THE JUDGE! Not you. Not DTW. Not me. Jesus alone. What is your duty until then? To love and to share GOOD NEWS. Also, you are called to be a minister of reconciliation, just as Jesus was and is.

The Revelation passage does not suit you either for the exact same reasons. If you would like a good study on that book, by the way, visit my blog. I have been teaching it for the last 3 months to my church after studying it in seminary. To be sure, it does not give you license to act as you are acting – quite the opposite actually.

And why do you quote Matthew 10? Are you really trying to turn Jesus into a sociopathic schizophrenic? Is Matthew 10 your sole lens into the life and ministry of Jesus Christ, the one who is called Prince of Peace? Surely you can think with a bit more nuance than this, can’t you?

In the first century you better believe houses became divided when loyalties were questioned. To follow Jesus is not a bed of roses, as any Christian should confess. It is not about getting out of jail free or about getting healthy and wealthy. It is about shouldering a cross and dying to self while dying FOR others. Jesus knew better than anyone that it is the sort of life that just might get you killed. But it is ALSO THE WAY OF LOVE. Jesus’ greatest command, when he could have picked ANY, was “Love the Lord your God…and your neighbor as yourself.” Now, you may ask with the rest of Jesus’ crowd, “Who is my neighbor?” The answer comes back: Even your most hated enemy. And how does one show love to such people? Not by beating them over the head with your own perceptions of truth but by being a friend, by being in community with others, by lending a helping hand, by caring for the sick, by giving a drink of water, a plate of food, a shelter. That is love. It is what we are commanded to show to the world which is lost without this Love, who came in the form of a Person, not laws.

peace.

p.s. The interesting thing about your quoting Matt 7:22ff is that you left off the first verse, which is where Jesus begins: Do not judge, or you too will be judged. 2For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.

And why do you think Jesus casts out those whom he said he never knew? They are people who had the form of religion and did the works – they knew all the right answers – and yet they did not seem to really know the person of Jesus. The did not know love.

Amanda

Chad said:

I am trying to picture Jesus saying, “I will not eat with that person, I will not like that person, I will not associate with that person.” Unbelievable.

Exactly right! The Jesus the emergents follow will never say something like that. Yet, the Bible says:

On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’
(Mat 7:22-23)

Who is right, Chad or Jesus Christ? Again:

I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end.” Blessed are those who wash their robes, so that they may have the right to the tree of life and that they may enter the city by the gates. Outside are the dogs and sorcerers and the sexually immoral and murderers and idolaters, and everyone who loves and practices falsehood.
(Rev 22:13-15)

You don’t get to make the rules, Chad.

Like I said, you do not think yourself as one who is a reconciler but a divider.

Jesus Christ said:

“Do not think that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I have not come to bring peace, but a sword. For I have come to set a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law. And a person’s enemies will be those of his own household. Whoever loves father or mother more than me is not worthy of me, and whoever loves son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me.
(Mat 10:34-37)

AriseMyLove

Chad: I welcome your comments because it gives an opportunity to clear up many Christian misconceptions.

1. There is a difference between Paul admonishing, say, Alexander the Coppersmith, “who did Paul and the work of the Gospel much harm”…

2. .. and dealing with likeminded believers on issues of faith

3. … and then dealing with the rank unsaved and unwashed.

So there are three categories here. The so called “Christians” who are in error or who reject the Gospel in their doctrine; you could put the Pharisees and Sadducees in this category too. The normal Christians and the Unsaved who don’t know anything about the Gospel and are dead in their sins.

Paul dealt with these three groups the same way the Lord does…

We are to admonish and rebuked those who claim to know or have known Christ but teach “a different Gospel” with all authority. This is reflected in Jesus’ warnings against False Teachers and False Prophets as well. Love is not the operational word here: Truth is. (Since Jesus is both Love and the Truth, it is LOVE to rebuke false teachers and false prophets with stringent authority, btw, and I mean the authority of the Word of God. They are dangerous to the sheep and must be rebuked.)

We are to correct and admonish normal Christians in terms of their doctrine as well, and then, if they fall into sin, attempt to reconcile those to the Lord. This implies that these Christians are intent upon following the Lord in their lives and have just fallen into error or sin but desire to follow Him. This desire to follow Him and adhere to the Gospel is the difference between this group and the first group who disagree on what the Gospel actually is all about in the first place!

Finally, the Unsaved. We are to preach to them the Word with Power and Love in hopes to snatch some from the fire. They do not have the gift of the Holy Spirit to overcome sin, so we have NO right to judge them.

We are allowed to judge are the false teachers and false prophets or the “Alexander the Coppersmiths” of our day, and judge harshly, on their false stands and false presentations of Jesus Christ.

We are told to judge Christians who are more in love with their sin than the Lord, like the incestuous son in law at Corinth.

We are told to help those who intend to follow Christ but have fallen into sin or error with steady discernment and love.

We are warned not to judge or attempt to condemn the unsaved sinners who known not Christ and have no power over their sin natures; these will ‘know Him by our love for one another” and “by hearing the Word preached, in season and out of season”…

Oh, and we are warned by the Lord not to judge hypocritically those who sins mimic our own, as with the woman caught in adultery. “He who is without sin let him cast the first stone…”

There is a difference in rebuking those who pretend Christ,
those who intend Christ;
those who know not Christ
and those who are in sin that we ourselves commit.

We need to be smart about the Word, Chad and wield it with Authority.

Chad

I’m sorry, DTW, but simply because you declare something as “satanic” does not make it so. If you are serious about being a “discerner” than I would think you would be one who does “close reading” of other peoples ideas and thoughts so that you can at least represent them fairly and accurately.
If you are serious about this than please, go through line by line and show how Nic is “satanic” in his writings. He has already told you directly that you have misinterpreted him from beginning to end.

Discerning The World

Chad

I won’t delete them UNLESS you reference me (in a condescending, or nasty, or sarcastic way, etc.,) in your comments to other people – I will delete them. This includes promoting your ideas and trying to ‘convert’ others – I WILL delete your comments. If other commenter’s want to go to your blog they can go (because your blog address is linked to your name) but you will NOT push them your way. This goes for your pals too.

Besides I have rules, use them: – this page has been updated.

For now, I have don’t feel the need to comment, I’ve got things I am working on.

Lastly you said: >> Are you capable of at least recognizing that you may not have all the answer but that God could be speaking through even us emergents?

No, for the Word of God has all the answers, and Emergents contradict God’s Word.

Chad

Arise,
While I agree it is the role or the church to disciple (and when necessary, discipline) her members in the hopes that we might all grow to the fullness and stature of Christ, you appear to overlook one very, very important aspect in all of this.

Of all the instances in scripture where false teachers were called out and rebuked and “judged” what is the common denominator of them all? Do you know?

Discerning The World

Whatever.

The things you say expose you and the emergent one world religion more. The more you people say the more people read, and the more they realise what’s going on the more they realise how they are being duped, and the more they will finally start to realise that God was not being funny when He said that many false Christ’s would come and deceive with doctrines of demons.

That in the last days things will become HORRIFIC, the most TERRIBLE things the world could ever imagine possible will happen; TRIBULATION and ARMAGEDDON. Everything you and your Emergies say contradicts the Word of God. So if it’s not from the Bible, the message is then and anti-God message, an anti-Christ. And by anti-Christ I am speaking about anti- the REAL Jesus Christ of the Bible and pro- false Christ that can’t for one second stop belittling Jesus Christ the Son of God, and can’t for one second stop turning the Bible into another message, a message that teaches another ‘gospel’ a new age gospel.

But I know who I am going to believe and it’s not you.

Right…that’s it. Over and out.

Chad

As always, you are more than welcome to actually show where this is true:

Everything you and your Emergies say contradicts the Word of God.

You continue to make this sweeping statements that are completely unfounded in any reality.
Name calling and seeing who can shout the loudest does not make what you have to say true.

Please, feel free to show where anything I have said or any of my friends stands in direct contradiction to Scripture. This is your chance to show me, a lowly pastor, the error of my ways and perhaps you can save an entire congregation from the pits of hell.

Discerning The World

See above, Nic’s satanic writings which you agree with.

Discerning The World

SIN

Chad

nope. but the question was for arise.

Chad

So since the word of God has all the answers why should anyone listen to what you have to say?

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