Born Again Christians Compared to Inquisitors of the Inquisitions

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Born Again Christians are Now Compared to Inquisitors of the Inquisitions

This is a very interesting article written shortly after my critique of the Amahoro Gathering where Brian McLaren graced everyone with his presence in South Africa in June 2009.

Steve from khanya.wordpress.com says that my critique of the opening speech at Amahoro by Claude Nikondeha “….reflects the very worst of modernity.”   But that’s no surprise considering the Emergent Church (Interfaith, Ecumenical, One World Religion) is Postmodern – Socialism disguised as ‘good’ works, ‘good’ fruit and the acceptance of a One World Religion.  The fruit they speak of looks nice on the outside but is rotten on the inside for they oppose what the Bible has to say in every way possible.

Post-Modernity opposes the Word of God in that:

– There is no such thing as right or wrong
– There is no such thing as good or evil
– There is no such thing as sin
– There is no such thing as truth.  Truth is a lie.

Because born again Christians prefer to hold onto the Word of God (which is the Truth) they are now saying that we are like the Inquisitors of the Inquisition.  They are now insinuating that wewill most probably physically persecute those who believe in freedom (um…socialism), the idea that everything else is the truth, except the Bible.

The Inquisitions that took place was in response to people who wanted to break away from the apostate or heretical Roman Catholic Church – who dominated and branded those who refused to belong to the Mother Church as heretics.  They needed to be removed, eradicated, tortured, murdered in the most terrible of ways.  Of course many other people of other faiths also received the long end of their stick.   They tolerated no one, no matter who you were, if you did want to accept their god you were branded.

Today genuine Christians are now being called Bastards or Infidels as Francois Arouet De Voltaire (1694 – 1778) put it all those years ago.  And adherents of the Emergent movement in 2009 are now saying the same thing.

Voltaire – ‘a French Enlightenmentwriter’ – opposed Roman Catholicism fiercely which he considered to be Christian.  Quite frankly I don’t blame him for thinking this way; but because of his hatred for what he thought was Christianity, he claimed that the Gospels were figments of someone’s imagination and Jesus did not exist.  The lies of the Roman Catholic church and their insistence that they were and still are Christian has made a very volatile situation for born again Christians.

Voltaire despised ‘Christianity’ / Roman Catholic church for they imposed an absolute truth which was their version of taking the Gospels and applying it to their evil ideals.  They used the Bible and the name of God to torture and murder hundreds of thousands of people who would not believe what they said was the truth.  Their version of the truth was that what the Pope spoke was infallible, not the Word of God, if Rome said the gospel meant ‘this’ then that was that – agree and live, argue and die.  The Catholic Church placed themselves above the Gospel of Jesus Christ as the only ones who could understand what God was saying – and of course that is a complete lie for ALL who are truly born again can understand the Word of God as everyone is lead by the Holy Spirit into all truth, understanding and remembrance of Jesus Christ.

Anyhow, the world is now coming to a very very dangerous pinnacle where they blame Christianity for the evils that have taken place through-out the centuries.  The West have caused nothing but destruction therefore post-modernity is the way to go. The capitalist system needs to be eradicated no matter what it takes to be replaced by a Post-Modern form of socialism under the disguise of good works.  But they FAIL to realise that Roman Catholicism is not Christian.   But this does not matter.  As per the Word of God born again Christians will be HATED not because of the LIE that we cause nothing but hostility, but because we adhere to the Gospel of Jesus Christ and this is something that the One World Religion just can’t handle – that we hold onto the Bible for dear life.

My family line has a history of French Hugenout’s who escaped from France when Christians amongst others were being persecuted.

Huguenots became known for their criticisms of worship as performed in the Roman Catholic Church, in particular the focus on ritual and what they viewed as an obsession with death and the dead. They believed the ritual, images, saints, pilgrimages, prayers, and hierarchy of the Catholic Church did not help anyone toward redemption.  In other words, no SALVATION could come from the teachings of Roman Catholicism, only spiritual destruction.

The Roman Catholic Church fanatically opposed the Huguenots, attacking pastors and congregants as they attempted to meet in secret for worship. The Huguenots, in self-defense against the Roman Catholic Church, at times took up arms, even taking a few Catholic controlled cities.

On Sunday, March 12th, 2002, the Pope John Paul II apologized for the errors of his church for the last 2000 years. 

“… we cannot fail to recognize the infidelities to the Gospel committed by some of our brethren, especially during the second millennium. Let us ask pardon for the divisions which have occurred among Christians, for the violence some have used in the service of the truth and for the distrustful and hostile attitudes sometimes taken towards the followers of other religions.”  [note:  some of our brethren…and sometimes hostle attitutudes?  LOL.  How to ‘apologise and not to apologise’ at the same time.  Hmmm, lets see who ordered these crimes…]

The Vatican’s Papal bulls, briefs and addresses and apologies to the public are nothing but LIES.

We give you a strict command that, by whatever means you can, you destroy all these heresies and expel from your diocese all who are polluted with them. You shall exercise the rigor of the ecclesiastical power against them and all those who have made themselves suspected by associating with them. They may not appeal from your judgments, and if necessary, you may cause the princes and people to suppress them with the sword.   – Medieval Sourcebook, Innocent III: Letters on Papal Policies.  Letter to the Archbishob of Auch, 1198.

Christians were martyred by Roman ‘fake-Christian’ Catholicism – Direct orders from God, sorry I mean the Popes!

Steve says regarding my article:  Amahoro – Transfiguration to Take Over Africa and Then the World …

 What makes the critique so boring is that it reflects the very worst of modernity.

John Ralston Saul, in his book Voltaire’s bastards: the dictatorship of reason in the West, writes:

The Inquisitors were the first to formalize the idea that to every question there is a right answer. The answer is known but the question must be asked and correctly answered. Relativism, humanism, common sense and moral beliefs were all irrelevant to this process because they assume doubt. Since the Inquisitors knew the answer, doubt was impossible. Process, however, was essential for efficient governance and process required that questions be asked in order to produce the correct answer.

The writer of the critique on Claude Nikondeha’s paper seems to have a similar attitude. [note:  that’s me]  Because there is a right answer to every question, and the answers are known, [note: yes there is an answer to everything, it’s called the Bible, which you want nothing to do with] there is no need to explain “where he is coming from”.  [note:  coming from the Bible] Anyone who disagrees with him/her is ipso facto a heretic. [note:  of course quoting Latin makes one seem non heretical (like the Vatican) and super-apostle like as ‘intelligence’ detracts one from the fact that they mock, insult and deny Jesus Christ by ripping the bible in half ] And of course if he/she did say where he/she was coming from, and stated his/her unstated assumptions, he/she might reveal himself/herself as a heretic. [note:  um, where did you miss that I am coming from a Bible believing genuine Christian perspective?  Which as you say reveals me as a heretic.]

And it is this kind of oracular authority that represents the worst that modernity has to offer. Read the tale of the Grand Inquisitor in Dostoevsky’s The brothers Karamazov to see where this kind of thinking can lead to.”

[So as we can see genuine Christians are going to be the cause of a repeat of inquisition type horrors.  Which is funny coming from Steve who is an ‘Orthodox Christian’ aka Roman Catholic adherent – Everything has been TWISTED around.  The original persecutors are now the innocent ones and the innocent ones are now going to be the persecutors.]

Source:  http://khanya.wordpress.com

Quotes by Francois Arouet De Voltaire [1]:

“The Eternal has his designs from all eternity. If prayer is in accord with his immutable wishes, it is quite useless to ask of him what he has resolved to do. If one prays to him to do the contrary of what he has resolved, it is praying that he be weak, frivolous, inconstant; it is believing that he is thus, it is to mock him. Either you ask him a just thing, in which case he must do it, the thing being done without your praying to him for it, and so to entreat him is then to distrust him; or the thing is unjust, and then you insult him. You are worthy or unworthy of the grace you implore: if worthy, he knows it better than you; if unworthy, you commit another crime by requesting what is undeserved.

In a word, we only pray to God because we have made him in our image. We treat him like a pasha, like a sultan whom one may provoke or appease.”    “Prayers” (1770)

“If God has made us in his image, we have returned him the favor.”   Notebooks (c.1735-c.1750)

“Where is the prince sufficiently educated to know that for seventeen hundred years the Christian sect has done nothing but harm?”Letters of Voltaire and Frederick the Great (New York: Brentano’s, 1927), transl. Richard Aldington, letter 160 from Voltaire to Frederick II of Prussia, 1767-04-06 [6]

“The best is the enemy of the good.”   Variant translations:   “The perfect is the enemy of the good orThe better is the enemy of the good.”   La Bégueule (1772)

Not only was Voltaire anti-christian but he was a racist too:

“The Jewish nation dares to display an irreconcilable hatred toward all nations, and revolts against all masters; always superstitious, always greedy for the well-being enjoyed by others, always barbarous – cringing in misfortune and insolent in prosperity.”  Essai sur les Moeurs et l’Esprit des Nations (1753), Introduction, XLII: Des Juifs depuis Saül

“It is a serious question among them whether they [Africans] are descended from monkeys or whether the monkeys come from them. Our wise men have said that man was created in the image of God. Now here is a lovely image of the Divine Maker: a flat and black nose with little or hardly any intelligence. A time will doubtless come when these animals will know how to cultivate the land well, beautify their houses and gardens, and know the paths of the stars: one needs time for everything.” Les Lettres d’Amabed (1769): Septième Lettre d’Amabed

Rome, it’s Popes, it’s bishops, it’s cardinals, it’s puppets, collaborators and fornicators with Roman Catholicism, drenched in the blood of the saints who stood up for Jesus Christ will hand their power to the Man of Lawlessness (Beast/anti-Christ) in the coming years/last days.  And the anti-Christ will destroy them.  The Vatican rides the beast in the hopes it will attain more power, but their followers will be shocked and weep for their precious whore (Mary – Goddess of Fertility) when she burns in ruins.

The good works, the fruit they tried to bare, the fruit they thought they produced, rotting for it was not good fruit from a good tree, but bad fruit from a thorn tree. The kingdom of their own desires they tried to create – thrown into the fire

Revelation 17:3-6

3  Then the angel carried me away in the Spirit into a desert. There I saw a woman sitting on a scarlet beast that was covered with blasphemous names and had seven heads and ten horns.
4  The woman was dressed in purple and scarlet, and was glittering with gold, precious stones and pearls. She held a golden cup in her hand, filled with abominable things and the filth of her adulteries.
5  This title was written on her forehead:
MYSTERY
BABYLON THE GREAT
THE MOTHER OF PROSTITUTES
AND OF THE ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.
6  I saw that the woman was drunk with the blood of the saints, the blood of those who bore testimony to Jesus.

Revelation 18:14-17

14 “They will say, ‘The fruit you longed for is gone from you. All your riches and splendor have vanished, never to be recovered.’
15  The merchants who sold these things and gained their wealth from her will stand far off, terrified at her torment. They will weep and mourn
16  and cry out:
‘Woe! Woe, O great city,
dressed in fine linen, purple and scarlet,
and glittering with gold, precious stones and pearls!
17  In one hour such great wealth has been brought to ruin!’


References:

[1] http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Voltaire
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Deborah (Discerning the World)

Deborah Ellish is the author of the above article. Discerning the World is an internet Christian Ministry based in Johannesburg South Africa. Tom Lessing and Deborah Ellish both own Discerning the World. For more information see the About this Website page below the comments section.

85 Responses

  1. Discerning The World says:

    I think Steve can speak for himself.

  2. Roger says:

    Steve is interested in the Emerging Church conversation, but he’s not “Emergent”. And he’s not a “Catholic adherent.”

  3. Amanda says:

    Roger

    I am still curious. How do you justify from the Bible your belief that the Holy Spirit is at work in other religions?

  4. iggy says:

    Amanda,

    Curious to me is that you seem to be saying that you do not believe God to be sovereign and at work in unbelievers. There are numerous verses in the bible that state God is at work even in unbelievers…. they may believe in “God” but later the bible states people like Peter, Phillip and many others showed them Jesus. God was at work with those who were had not yet come to faith… By stating, “I am still curious. How do you justify from the Bible your belief that the Holy Spirit is at work in other religions?” You are also negating Acts chapter 2 where the Holy Spirit was poured out on “all” flesh. “17. “`In the last days, God says, I will pour out my Spirit on all people…”

    Even Paul wrote that ” when we were God’s enemies…” (Rom 5:10)
    There are so many verses to me that show that God is at work by His Holy Spirit ever revealing Himself to those that do not yet believe that it is almost unfathomable that a believer in Christ would question that the Holy Spirit is not also reaching out and drawing those in other religions to Jesus as the bible states He does.

    So the real question is: Is God sovereign to you or not? DO you not believe that “God calls things that are not as though they were.” ( Rom 4:17) Do you deny that God calls those who are elect who may even be in other religions? (Rom 8:30)

    If you do not believe in those basic things, the I wonder… do you know the Living Christ who is Jesus?

    Peace,
    iggy

  5. iggy says:

    I will note also that not everyone is postmodern in the emerging conversation. Most are speaking to those IN the postmodern age. Yet, saying that, everyone alive now is postmodern just as those who lived in the Modern Age were modern. To live in an age and address the issues of that age does not mean one thinks that way. I hear that emerging folk are all Postmodern saying that then none would believe in Christ Jesus as that is not a postmodern type of thought. Aspects such as relationship is postmodern and many emerging are reaching others for Christ in relational means. So to speak as if all emerging people are postmodern means nothing and yet also misleads many to wrong conclusions of what is going on. In an effect, many who push the PM label on emerging as in this article are unwittingly lying about emerging and grossly misrepresenting it.

    iggy

  6. Discerning The World says:

    Iggy

    >> In an effect, many who push the PM label on emerging as in this article are unwittingly lying about emerging and grossly misrepresenting it.

    Bwahahhahaa is that all that is misrepresented?

    Should I just change everything to ‘New Age’ where anything BUT the Word of God applies. And then change the words bastards and infidels to ‘Bible believing born again Christians who love Jesus Christ and hold onto the Word of God as the Truth’?

    Yeah, I suppose that’s what you should have been complaining about; ‘how DARE they call genuine Christian’s bastards and infidels!!’ But instead you complain; ‘how DARE you grossly misrepresent us as all being post-modern!!’

    Maybe you need to ask Steve why I am the very worst of modernity…I don’t see myself like that, but then I also don’t think I am a bastard and infidel either. If, just if I were forced to choose of the two I think being called modern hurts me more LOL. Because Jesus already told us in His Word that we will be hated because they HATED Him first. That we who love Him will be hated. So no surpise that this is what it’s come down too.

    ‘Call us all PM’s, post-modern, grumble, grumble…how dare they!’ So funny…no really…that was funny.

  7. Discerning The World says:

    So the moral of the story Iggy is next time you post a comment make sure it’s in it’s rightful place i.e., under the correct article where where Roger made these comments NOT Amanda…

  8. Amanda says:

    Iggy

    Roger said:

    So your hope for Muslims is what, exactly? What about those ones who won’t become Christians? You wash your hands of them and don’t care what happens to them?

    and

    The Emergent teaching (whatever that is) is not about all faiths leading to one God – I don’t know where you get that. I don’t know enough about the internal tensions with Islam and Buddhism to comment about them, but I know to judge them on the fruit they lead to, and one of the fruits of the spirit is peace. If a religion does not lead to peace, the Holy Spirit is not working within it. If your Christian faith does not lead you to be a peacemaker, same thing.

  9. Discerning The World says:

    >> No, no. Iggy is questioning my salvation because I asked Roger:

    Yeah got that part loud and clear…

    Regarding comment. Oops, sorry! Amanda did make this comment, but in direct response to Roger’s comment. So, Iggy still mis-quoting you, not taking into consideration what Roger said.

  10. Amanda says:

    No, no. Iggy is questioning my salvation because I asked Roger:

    I am still curious. How do you justify from the Bible your belief that the Holy Spirit is at work in other religions?

  11. iggy says:

    Sorry that this is such a shotgun approach, but each of you will know who it is for as the Holy Spirit hits your heart and your anger rises against me.

    Amanda: What a shame that the emerging guy who is labeled postmodern stands up for the truth of the bible, and God’s sovereignty is then mocked. I did question the salvation of someone who denies the truth of the bible… but I guess that is wrong here. I also question how lying about others is considered a way to protect God’s truth… as God’s truth is given to grow and protect us… Your questions about how ineffective you saw the holy Spirit to be seemed to show a lack of faith in the Power of God to save… In that I see immaturity in the faith and possible that you are under some really bad teaching. If the truth of the Bible offends you, then I see there is a major issue.

    DTW: So also those who hate their brother does not have the truth in them… so DTW spreads hate against myself and other believers like me and shows who they really are… and stand. If you even had a clue as to what PM was and even more what you are saying… you would find that most people with some educational backing about PM and what you mock are laughing at you. Hate is not a Christian virtue nor is it a fruit of the Spirit… I recommend you read Matt 15:7-12…

    BTW I hit the reply button to Amanda… and I am not sure why WordPress put it where it did…

    Peace in the Name of our Lord Jesus Who is the Living Truth and the Living Word,

    iggy

  12. Discerning The World says:

    Iggy.

    Yes they are and I don’t sit here waiting for you to comment so I can jump and approve it. All comments are allowed.

  13. Discerning The World says:

    I like to do it this way, so I can keep up with everything that is being said. I ‘allow’ all comments…except foul language, people trying to use fake names – multiple split personalities, posting the same thing over and over again, they seemed relatively sane to start with but did not end that way…this is not spam, it’s real people.

    >> And thanks again for posting the comment…

    Pleasure, I never delete (unless above reasons etc) and if I do which I did once (on my old blog) cos I clicked the wrong button. I will comment with an apology and tell the person to come back and post what they said again – in the hopes they come back and read it…

  14. Discerning The World says:

    Jon Trott

    >> Emergent. Good grief, I don’t even think the emergent folks know what they mean by that term.

    Well that’s quite silly don’t you think. I know what it means to be truly born again and a genuine born again Christian and I know what the Bible is actually saying, and I know what it means to belong to the Body of Christ and I know what it means to be a Child of God.

    But the Emergent Church don’t know what they believe, they speak the word ‘Emergent’ all the time but have nooooooooooo idea what it means? NOOOOOOOOOO?? You kidding!!!

    As per Brian McLaren there is no such thing as truth…or fact…or…what word Emergent actually means in fact I am wondering if you all think the Matrix series was actually true, or not…what does the words ‘all faiths e-merging into one religion’ mean? Good grief, what does anything mean anymore? Don’t know what sin is, don’t know what the Bible means for the Bible is not truth and can be interpreted any which way, for any religion. Let me help you here. Emergents are New Ages…huh!!!! Surprise!!!! Bet you didn’t know that either. Oh wait…wait are New Agers?

    Oohhhhhhhhhhh….maybe you should go ask Steve your friend to read more, study more and pray more…to the right God of course…the one and only living God who sent his only begotten Son Jesus Christ to die the most horrific death that you may be saved. Of course you need to accept HIM before He accepts you. He didn’t go through all that so you can just go ahead and still reject Him.

    >> Careful, gentle…

    Hmmmmm…very interesting choice of word there… what are you? I am born again , even a Jew or any other when saves becomes born again and is now a NEW person in Jesus Christ. Yes the Jewish race will always remain God’s chosen race…but they too like you need to accept Jesus Christ as their Saviour.

    >> you yourself are now at risk of violating the Word of God with unrighteous judgement and divisive, unedifying discourse.

    Oh I thought IDOL WORSHIP, the Worship of other GODS was unrighteous and caused a division between fake Christians and genuine Christians and COMPLETELY unedifying to God who says. Hmmm….wonder when this changed!!

    I think Nic said something similar to me. And I said,

    Deuteronomy 5:7-9

    7 you shall have no other gods before me.
    8 You shall not make for yourself an idol, whether in the form of anything that is in heaven above, or that is on the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.
    9 You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I the Lord your God am a jealous God, punishing children for the iniquity of parents, to the third and fourth generation of those who reject me,
    10 but showing steadfast love to the thousandth generation of those who love me and keep my commandments.

    Exodus 20:3-6
    3 Do not have any other gods before me.
    4 You shall not make for yourself an idol, whether in the form of anything that is in heaven above, or that is on the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.
    5 You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I the Lord your God am a jealous God, punishing children for the iniquity of parents, to the third and the fourth generation of those who reject me,
    6 but showing steadfast love to the thousandth generation of those who love me and keep my commandments.

    Exodus 34:11-17
    11 Observe what I command you today. See, I will drive out before you the Amorites, the Canaanites, the Hittites, the Perizzites, the Hivites, and the Jebusites.
    12 Take care not to make a covenant with the inhabitants of the land to which you are going, or it will become a snare among you.
    13 You shall tear down their altars, break their pillars, and cut down their sacred poles
    14 (for you shall worship no other god, because the Lord, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God).
    15 You shall not make a covenant with the inhabitants of the land, for when they prostitute themselves to their gods and sacrifice to their gods, someone among them will invite you, and you will eat of the sacrifice.
    16 And you will take wives from among their daughters for your sons, and their daughters who prostitute themselves to their gods will make your sons also prostitute themselves to their gods.
    17 You shall not make cast idols.

  15. itodyaso says:

    Why are you censoring my last comment? Afraid people might learn the truth?

  16. Discerning The World says:

    Not censoring your comments…

    I monitor all comments on my own and then approve them.

    Like I said earlier: “I like to do it this way, so I can keep up with everything that is being said. I ‘allow’ all comments…except foul language, people trying to use fake names – multiple split personalities (like Roger/Frank did and friend of Steve’s), posting the same thing over and over again (this is not spam, it’s real people), people who seemed relatively sane to start with but do not end that way after a few approved comments, people who blatantly lie and try turn my blog into something it’s not meant to be (an advertisement for false teaching). etc. I will let everyone have their say, until it gets out of hand, so don’t EVER come say I did not let you speak yur mind.”

  17. itodyaso says:

    Amanda, If your question was to Roger in the way that meant that he is denying the Holy Spirits working in unbelievers coming to Jesus, I apologize, yet the question itself did not lead me to see that you were asking that.

    Again, DTW is misleading people in the lies that are being spread here. He is very much uninformed even on the simplest things and seems to now be censoring my comments to keep people from seeing the lies he is presenting.

  18. itodyaso says:

    Edited by DTW

    Iggy – This one I deleted. Your websites are already linked to your name, as said, just let us all know who you are depending on which one of your blogges you are logged into at the time.

  19. Discerning The World says:

    Iggy

    >> So also those who hate their brother does not have the truth in them

    No, for the bible tells us that those who speak another gospel and follow false teachers and another Christ are not bretheren, until they come to know Jesus Christ. We speak to them in love which is ALWAYS speaking the TRUTH. Not LIES covered in sugar and spice and all things nice.

    After this it’s their choice to accept Jesus Christ into their lives. I can’t force anyone to do this…I do not save people, Jesus Christ saves.

    I spread the good news of REPENTANCE OF SIN and that Jesus dies for everyone WHO MAKE A CHOICE TO ACCEPT HIM. But this is not good news to most…in fact it’s the most horrific news ever therefore are per you, I spread hate. Like said in another comment, telling someone they are sinful and need Jesus Christ in their lives and genuinely repent of sin is already considered a hate crime and people are being taken to court…for this…

    Will you be there to be a witness for me or against me when I am presented before a court for speaking the Gospel of Jesus Christ?

  20. iggy says:

    I see you let the one post through… but where are the others? Are comments monitored on this site? Usually it states it is or not.

  21. Discerning The World says:

    >> I did accidentally post with a different name but I also posted in the comments it was still me. So I hope it did not fall under your “multiple split personalities” rule. Again, I did identify myself as to that I was both people.

    Understand, just say you are both so people know who’s commenting

    >> I try hard to just use this one but am only human and sometimes fail…

    I know what you are getting at here. AND there is a big different between sin and being human and failing sometimes….you should now that being a christian and all.

  22. Discerning The World says:

    Oh here we go again… Brian McLaren

    Christianity Defaced as Emergent Movement Embraces Mysticism –

  23. Discerning The World says:

    I tell you what, when New Age Emergents stop their loving insults, mockings, ridiculings etc of my Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ then…hey you will be on my side then and we wont be having this conversation and you would be sticking up for genuine Christians instead of faiths who bow down to Idols other Gods.

  24. Discerning The World says:

    Iggy

    >> It saddens me that you claim Jesus yet choose to hate your brothers and sisters in Christ Jesus… and label them so you can justify your hate

    Yeah me too. When I read the websites of supposed South Africa Christians (emergents) who mock, insult, hate, degrade,ridicule Jesus Christ it saddens me too.

  25. Jon Trott says:

    I do wish that before we all start tossing stones we’d stop and define what we mean by the words we use.

    Post-modern. The term is bandied about in this article quite a bit. But what does it mean? I see the claim that it means there is no such thing as truth. Actually, that is incorrect. Read Jacques Derrida and find out for yourself. But you have to actually read him and try understanding what he’s saying instead of hunting for sound bites with which he can be dispensed as “Satanic” or whatever. Sigh…

    Emergent. Good grief, I don’t even think the emergent folks know what they mean by that term. Is it really useful to attack an entire movement and/or group of people within the church?

    Careful, gentle, straightforward critique done in a spirit of love is what both the Church and world need.

    I think this post fails in that regard.

    De-christianizing Catholics? Oh, dear. I am unashamedly a Protestant, and have fairly severe differences of opinion w/ my Catholic sisters and brothers. But here’s the trouble with what you’ve done here — you yourself are now at risk of violating the Word of God with unrighteous judgement and divisive, unedifying discourse.

    Stand for what you believe the Word says. That is not only your right but your duty. But to cut off all Catholics as allegedly non-christian is to chop down the tree upon which your historical branch exists. It is silly, dangerous, and a bit astonishing, frankly.

    Fundamentalism has a noble history, esp. in its early years. But that was because its founders were intelligent, scholarly people.

    Please…. read more, study more. Pray more. Then post.

  26. Discerning The World says:

    >> false claims

    I just quote form the horses mouth…I took the whole article from Steve’s blog where he quotes Volaitre and then says this is what WE, genuine Christians are going to be the cause of…go take your false claims and tell that to Steve!

    >> meanwhile here is an emerging guy on your blog speaking and fighting for Biblical truth

    Really? Biblical? Oh yeah…I keep forgetting that the bible can be interpreted and applied to all faiths, and that all religions lead to the same god.

    >> I am saddened by your false claims against people I know and I know love Jesus.

    You know or heard of Cobus van Wyngaard? If not go read his HORRIFIC, DIGUSING, HORRIFIC articles on his blog. Do you think this is nice? Do you think this edifies Jesus Christ in ANY WAY? Who do you think Cobus is MOCKING here?

    How unique was the suffering of Jesus? Not unique at all! –

    In fact every one of his articles are so blatantly anti-Christ… Cobus was at Amahoro to and love it!

  27. iggy says:

    “Yes they are and I don’t sit here waiting for you to comment so I can jump and approve it. All comments are allowed.”

    Ok… really that seems a little weird as if all comments are allowed, why do they need to be approved? You can set wordpress to allow comments from people who have already posted and still monitor for new comments in case a spammer gets through. It is pretty easy to do that. And thanks again for posting the comment…

  28. iggy says:

    I did accidentally post with a different name but I also posted in the comments it was still me. So I hope it did not fall under your “multiple split personalities” rule. Again, I did identify myself as to that I was both people. It depends on which blog I am logged into. I try hard to just use this one but am only human and sometimes fail…

  29. iggy says:

    So how many emerging people do you actually know in person? I have met even a few ODM figures who are really emerging and do not realize it believe it or not… they just seem to confuse what is going on and stick it to a group of people not realizing that the ec is not a group that all thinks alike. We agree on many points…

    Relationship is important, so relationship with Jesus is important.

    The Bible is our authority, though just as you disagree with other of your “camp” we also disagree.

    Respect of people that Jesus died for is important to us. If God’s grace is enough to save me it can save anyone!

    Trusting that God does not need our help and is not like some little old lady that needs help crossing the street.

    That Truth is not just proposition but the Person of Jesus who is Truth incarnate. From Him all truth comes. We do not see that biblical truth needs a qualifier to make it more true… that is Platonist Dualism and Humanist modernism that needs to qualifier truth… The bible teaches let your yes be yes and your no be no… so, Truth is either true or a lie… Once you add the qualifier then you are stating that there is lesser “truth” and the bible calls anything less that truth a lie. Most people in your camp fight for modernistic humanist view of “absolute truth” which is great in philosophy, but as far as biblical… not true. Read that a few times as that may be a bit hard to wrap a modernistic mindset over… We do not deny “Truth” but assert biblical Truth over man made definitions of truth.

    We hold a high Christology… that Jesus is able to save those He wills to save. Not all that are called Universalist are… they may be Arminian, yet if you understand history, Arminianism is not Pelagianism…. I am neither and know Calvinists, Arminians and many like myself who go back to the early Church Fathers if I want to read on others thoughts.

    We care about proper context of the bible. That means historical as well as what the bible is saying… By taking great care and time in looking at the who, what, where, when and how of bible passages, then you can better see what the author was really saying.

    Most emerging are postmillennial or partial to full preterist. I only know of a few hyper-preterists and I fully disagree with them. Most do not believe in the Rapture but hold dearly to the Resurrection and the New Creation. Many are heavily influenced by NT Wright… as well and other scholars. Rob Bell would be an example as well as Brian McLaren as to seeing the narrative of the Kingdom of God is now as well as future. As NT Wright states it, it is like two trains. One is moving toward the future and one is head from the future and one day the will meet. I see it as multiple layers… much like multiple dimensions where we are sitting with Jesus now in eternity though we are still here now on earth… and one day the old reality of here will pass and the new reality (the New Creation) will be in it’s fullness.

    The emerging conversation to many is the conversation started in Genesis when God stated, “Let there be…” and continues to speak to us through scripture. We believe that faith must have works and I know of only a few that may believe in “works” salvation… Really I can’t name any.

    I could go on… but wonder if it really will make a difference that often what is stated about emerging, is lies and that instead of attacking people who love Jesus as you do, getting to know them and seeing what they really do believe. Not all agree with Brian Mclaren, though if one really listens he brings up great points…. each are only voice and points in the conversation but not the whole conversation… as again this is God’s conversation that was lost in the ivory towers and taken now to the common man.

    To say someone like Brian Mclaren does not believe in truth is laughable and shows a true lack of understanding of what he says as well as others… I recommend you try to read some of the people you are criticizing without judging them and pray and study them out… to state “they are New Agers” is again laughable as my wife was in the New Age movement and I am quite aware about it and truly… they are not the same thing at all.

    Again, before you mock and state foolish things, you should try to just talk to someone like me instead of making things up or restating things other ignorant people are saying… gossip is a sin as well as slander and bearing false witness… and I am sure you do not want to do those things as the bible teaches us not to.

    iggy

  30. Amanda says:

    Iggy

    Your questions about how ineffective you saw the holy Spirit to be seemed to show a lack of faith in the Power of God to save… In that I see immaturity in the faith and possible that you are under some really bad teaching. If the truth of the Bible offends you, then I see there is a major issue.

    I don’t know what you are talking about.

    Roger wrote:

    So your hope for Muslims is what, exactly? What about those ones who won’t become Christians? You wash your hands of them and don’t care what happens to them.

    and

    The Emergent teaching (whatever that is) is not about all faiths leading to one God – I don’t know where you get that. I don’t know enough about the internal tensions with Islam and Buddhism to comment about them, but I know to judge them on the fruit they lead to, and one of the fruits of the spirit is peace. If a religion does not lead to peace, the Holy Spirit is not working within it. If your Christian faith does not lead you to be a peacemaker, same thing.

    I asked him:

    How do you justify from the Bible your belief that the Holy Spirit is at work in other religions?

    What are you talking about?

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