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Born Again Christians Compared to Inquisitors of the Inquisitions

Born Again Christians Compared to Inquisitors of the Inquisitions

orthadox priests - khanya - born again Christains

Born Again Christians are Now Compared to Inquisitors of the Inquisitions

This is a very interesting article written shortly after my critique of the Amahoro Gathering where Brian McLaren graced everyone with his presence in South Africa in June 2009.

Steve from khanya.wordpress.com says that my critique of the opening speech at Amahoro by Claude Nikondeha “….reflects the very worst of modernity.”   But that’s no surprise considering the Emergent Church (Interfaith, Ecumenical, One World Religion) is Postmodern – Socialism disguised as ‘good’ works, ‘good’ fruit and the acceptance of a One World Religion.  The fruit they speak of looks nice on the outside but is rotten on the inside for they oppose what the Bible has to say in every way possible.

Post-Modernity opposes the Word of God in that:

– There is no such thing as right or wrong
– There is no such thing as good or evil
– There is no such thing as sin
– There is no such thing as truth.  Truth is a lie.

Because born again Christians prefer to hold onto the Word of God (which is the Truth) they are now saying that we are like the Inquisitors of the Inquisition.  They are now insinuating that wewill most probably physically persecute those who believe in freedom (um…socialism), the idea that everything else is the truth, except the Bible.

The Inquisitions that took place was in response to people who wanted to break away from the apostate or heretical Roman Catholic Church – who dominated and branded those who refused to belong to the Mother Church as heretics.  They needed to be removed, eradicated, tortured, murdered in the most terrible of ways.  Of course many other people of other faiths also received the long end of their stick.   They tolerated no one, no matter who you were, if you did want to accept their god you were branded.

Today genuine Christians are now being called Bastards or Infidels as Francois Arouet De Voltaire (1694 – 1778) put it all those years ago.  And adherents of the Emergent movement in 2009 are now saying the same thing.

Voltaire – ‘a French Enlightenmentwriter’ – opposed Roman Catholicism fiercely which he considered to be Christian.  Quite frankly I don’t blame him for thinking this way; but because of his hatred for what he thought was Christianity, he claimed that the Gospels were figments of someone’s imagination and Jesus did not exist.  The lies of the Roman Catholic church and their insistence that they were and still are Christian has made a very volatile situation for born again Christians.

Voltaire despised ‘Christianity’ / Roman Catholic church for they imposed an absolute truth which was their version of taking the Gospels and applying it to their evil ideals.  They used the Bible and the name of God to torture and murder hundreds of thousands of people who would not believe what they said was the truth.  Their version of the truth was that what the Pope spoke was infallible, not the Word of God, if Rome said the gospel meant ‘this’ then that was that – agree and live, argue and die.  The Catholic Church placed themselves above the Gospel of Jesus Christ as the only ones who could understand what God was saying – and of course that is a complete lie for ALL who are truly born again can understand the Word of God as everyone is lead by the Holy Spirit into all truth, understanding and remembrance of Jesus Christ.

Anyhow, the world is now coming to a very very dangerous pinnacle where they blame Christianity for the evils that have taken place through-out the centuries.  The West have caused nothing but destruction therefore post-modernity is the way to go. The capitalist system needs to be eradicated no matter what it takes to be replaced by a Post-Modern form of socialism under the disguise of good works.  But they FAIL to realise that Roman Catholicism is not Christian.   But this does not matter.  As per the Word of God born again Christians will be HATED not because of the LIE that we cause nothing but hostility, but because we adhere to the Gospel of Jesus Christ and this is something that the One World Religion just can’t handle – that we hold onto the Bible for dear life.

My family line has a history of French Hugenout’s who escaped from France when Christians amongst others were being persecuted.

Huguenots became known for their criticisms of worship as performed in the Roman Catholic Church, in particular the focus on ritual and what they viewed as an obsession with death and the dead. They believed the ritual, images, saints, pilgrimages, prayers, and hierarchy of the Catholic Church did not help anyone toward redemption.  In other words, no SALVATION could come from the teachings of Roman Catholicism, only spiritual destruction.

The Roman Catholic Church fanatically opposed the Huguenots, attacking pastors and congregants as they attempted to meet in secret for worship. The Huguenots, in self-defense against the Roman Catholic Church, at times took up arms, even taking a few Catholic controlled cities.

On Sunday, March 12th, 2002, the Pope John Paul II apologized for the errors of his church for the last 2000 years. 

“… we cannot fail to recognize the infidelities to the Gospel committed by some of our brethren, especially during the second millennium. Let us ask pardon for the divisions which have occurred among Christians, for the violence some have used in the service of the truth and for the distrustful and hostile attitudes sometimes taken towards the followers of other religions.”  [note:  some of our brethren…and sometimes hostle attitutudes?  LOL.  How to ‘apologise and not to apologise’ at the same time.  Hmmm, lets see who ordered these crimes…]

The Vatican’s Papal bulls, briefs and addresses and apologies to the public are nothing but LIES.

We give you a strict command that, by whatever means you can, you destroy all these heresies and expel from your diocese all who are polluted with them. You shall exercise the rigor of the ecclesiastical power against them and all those who have made themselves suspected by associating with them. They may not appeal from your judgments, and if necessary, you may cause the princes and people to suppress them with the sword.   – Medieval Sourcebook, Innocent III: Letters on Papal Policies.  Letter to the Archbishob of Auch, 1198.

Christians were martyred by Roman ‘fake-Christian’ Catholicism – Direct orders from God, sorry I mean the Popes!

————–

Steve says regarding my article:  Amahoro – Transfiguration to Take Over Africa and Then the World …

 What makes the critique so boring is that it reflects the very worst of modernity.

John Ralston Saul, in his book Voltaire’s bastards: the dictatorship of reason in the West, writes:

The Inquisitors were the first to formalize the idea that to every question there is a right answer. The answer is known but the question must be asked and correctly answered. Relativism, humanism, common sense and moral beliefs were all irrelevant to this process because they assume doubt. Since the Inquisitors knew the answer, doubt was impossible. Process, however, was essential for efficient governance and process required that questions be asked in order to produce the correct answer.

The writer of the critique on Claude Nikondeha’s paper seems to have a similar attitude. [note:  that’s me]  Because there is a right answer to every question, and the answers are known, [note: yes there is an answer to everything, it’s called the Bible, which you want nothing to do with] there is no need to explain “where he is coming from”.  [note:  coming from the Bible] Anyone who disagrees with him/her is ipso facto a heretic. [note:  of course quoting Latin makes one seem non heretical (like the Vatican) and super-apostle like as ‘intelligence’ detracts one from the fact that they mock, insult and deny Jesus Christ by ripping the bible in half ] And of course if he/she did say where he/she was coming from, and stated his/her unstated assumptions, he/she might reveal himself/herself as a heretic. [note:  um, where did you miss that I am coming from a Bible believing genuine Christian perspective?  Which as you say reveals me as a heretic.]

And it is this kind of oracular authority that represents the worst that modernity has to offer. Read the tale of the Grand Inquisitor in Dostoevsky’s The brothers Karamazov to see where this kind of thinking can lead to.”

[So as we can see genuine Christians are going to be the cause of a repeat of inquisition type horrors.  Which is funny coming from Steve who is an ‘Orthodox Christian’ aka Roman Catholic adherent – Everything has been TWISTED around.  The original persecutors are now the innocent ones and the innocent ones are now going to be the persecutors.]

Source:  http://khanya.wordpress.com

————-

Quotes by Francois Arouet De Voltaire [1]:

“The Eternal has his designs from all eternity. If prayer is in accord with his immutable wishes, it is quite useless to ask of him what he has resolved to do. If one prays to him to do the contrary of what he has resolved, it is praying that he be weak, frivolous, inconstant; it is believing that he is thus, it is to mock him. Either you ask him a just thing, in which case he must do it, the thing being done without your praying to him for it, and so to entreat him is then to distrust him; or the thing is unjust, and then you insult him. You are worthy or unworthy of the grace you implore: if worthy, he knows it better than you; if unworthy, you commit another crime by requesting what is undeserved.

In a word, we only pray to God because we have made him in our image. We treat him like a pasha, like a sultan whom one may provoke or appease.”    “Prayers” (1770)

“If God has made us in his image, we have returned him the favor.”   Notebooks (c.1735-c.1750)

“Where is the prince sufficiently educated to know that for seventeen hundred years the Christian sect has done nothing but harm?”Letters of Voltaire and Frederick the Great (New York: Brentano’s, 1927), transl. Richard Aldington, letter 160 from Voltaire to Frederick II of Prussia, 1767-04-06 [6]

“The best is the enemy of the good.”   Variant translations:   “The perfect is the enemy of the good orThe better is the enemy of the good.”   La Bégueule (1772)

Not only was Voltaire anti-christian but he was a racist too:

“The Jewish nation dares to display an irreconcilable hatred toward all nations, and revolts against all masters; always superstitious, always greedy for the well-being enjoyed by others, always barbarous — cringing in misfortune and insolent in prosperity.”  Essai sur les Moeurs et l’Esprit des Nations (1753), Introduction, XLII: Des Juifs depuis Saül

“It is a serious question among them whether they [Africans] are descended from monkeys or whether the monkeys come from them. Our wise men have said that man was created in the image of God. Now here is a lovely image of the Divine Maker: a flat and black nose with little or hardly any intelligence. A time will doubtless come when these animals will know how to cultivate the land well, beautify their houses and gardens, and know the paths of the stars: one needs time for everything.” Les Lettres d’Amabed (1769): Septième Lettre d’Amabed

————

Rome, it’s Popes, it’s bishops, it’s cardinals, it’s puppets, collaborators and fornicators with Roman Catholicism, drenched in the blood of the saints who stood up for Jesus Christ will hand their power to the Man of Lawlessness (Beast/anti-Christ) in the coming years/last days.  And the anti-Christ will destroy them.  The Vatican rides the beast in the hopes it will attain more power, but their followers will be shocked and weep for their precious whore (Mary – Goddess of Fertility) when she burns in ruins.

The good works, the fruit they tried to bare, the fruit they thought they produced, rotting for it was not good fruit from a good tree, but bad fruit from a thorn tree. The kingdom of their own desires they tried to create – thrown into the fire

Revelation 17:3-6

3  Then the angel carried me away in the Spirit into a desert. There I saw a woman sitting on a scarlet beast that was covered with blasphemous names and had seven heads and ten horns.
4  The woman was dressed in purple and scarlet, and was glittering with gold, precious stones and pearls. She held a golden cup in her hand, filled with abominable things and the filth of her adulteries.
5  This title was written on her forehead:
MYSTERY
BABYLON THE GREAT
THE MOTHER OF PROSTITUTES
AND OF THE ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.

6  I saw that the woman was drunk with the blood of the saints, the blood of those who bore testimony to Jesus.

Revelation 18:14-17

14 “They will say, ‘The fruit you longed for is gone from you. All your riches and splendor have vanished, never to be recovered.’
15  The merchants who sold these things and gained their wealth from her will stand far off, terrified at her torment. They will weep and mourn
16  and cry out:
‘Woe! Woe, O great city,
dressed in fine linen, purple and scarlet,
and glittering with gold, precious stones and pearls!
17  In one hour such great wealth has been brought to ruin!’


References:

[1] http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Voltaire
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85 comments to Born Again Christians Compared to Inquisitors of the Inquisitions

  • Discerning The World

    I think Steve can speak for himself.

  • Roger

    Steve is interested in the Emerging Church conversation, but he’s not “Emergent”. And he’s not a “Catholic adherent.”

  • Amanda

    Roger

    I am still curious. How do you justify from the Bible your belief that the Holy Spirit is at work in other religions?

  • iggy

    Amanda,

    Curious to me is that you seem to be saying that you do not believe God to be sovereign and at work in unbelievers. There are numerous verses in the bible that state God is at work even in unbelievers…. they may believe in “God” but later the bible states people like Peter, Phillip and many others showed them Jesus. God was at work with those who were had not yet come to faith… By stating, “I am still curious. How do you justify from the Bible your belief that the Holy Spirit is at work in other religions?” You are also negating Acts chapter 2 where the Holy Spirit was poured out on “all” flesh. “17. “`In the last days, God says, I will pour out my Spirit on all people…”

    Even Paul wrote that ” when we were God’s enemies…” (Rom 5:10)
    There are so many verses to me that show that God is at work by His Holy Spirit ever revealing Himself to those that do not yet believe that it is almost unfathomable that a believer in Christ would question that the Holy Spirit is not also reaching out and drawing those in other religions to Jesus as the bible states He does.

    So the real question is: Is God sovereign to you or not? DO you not believe that “God calls things that are not as though they were.” ( Rom 4:17) Do you deny that God calls those who are elect who may even be in other religions? (Rom 8:30)

    If you do not believe in those basic things, the I wonder… do you know the Living Christ who is Jesus?

    Peace,
    iggy

  • iggy

    I will note also that not everyone is postmodern in the emerging conversation. Most are speaking to those IN the postmodern age. Yet, saying that, everyone alive now is postmodern just as those who lived in the Modern Age were modern. To live in an age and address the issues of that age does not mean one thinks that way. I hear that emerging folk are all Postmodern saying that then none would believe in Christ Jesus as that is not a postmodern type of thought. Aspects such as relationship is postmodern and many emerging are reaching others for Christ in relational means. So to speak as if all emerging people are postmodern means nothing and yet also misleads many to wrong conclusions of what is going on. In an effect, many who push the PM label on emerging as in this article are unwittingly lying about emerging and grossly misrepresenting it.

    iggy

  • Discerning The World

    Iggy

    >> In an effect, many who push the PM label on emerging as in this article are unwittingly lying about emerging and grossly misrepresenting it.

    Bwahahhahaa is that all that is misrepresented?

    Should I just change everything to ‘New Age’ where anything BUT the Word of God applies. And then change the words bastards and infidels to ‘Bible believing born again Christians who love Jesus Christ and hold onto the Word of God as the Truth’?

    Yeah, I suppose that’s what you should have been complaining about; ‘how DARE they call genuine Christian’s bastards and infidels!!’ But instead you complain; ‘how DARE you grossly misrepresent us as all being post-modern!!’

    Maybe you need to ask Steve why I am the very worst of modernity…I don’t see myself like that, but then I also don’t think I am a bastard and infidel either. If, just if I were forced to choose of the two I think being called modern hurts me more LOL. Because Jesus already told us in His Word that we will be hated because they HATED Him first. That we who love Him will be hated. So no surpise that this is what it’s come down too.

    ‘Call us all PM’s, post-modern, grumble, grumble…how dare they!’ So funny…no really…that was funny.

  • Discerning The World

    So the moral of the story Iggy is next time you post a comment make sure it’s in it’s rightful place i.e., under the correct article where where Roger made these comments NOT Amanda…

  • Amanda

    Iggy

    Roger said:

    So your hope for Muslims is what, exactly? What about those ones who won’t become Christians? You wash your hands of them and don’t care what happens to them?

    and

    The Emergent teaching (whatever that is) is not about all faiths leading to one God – I don’t know where you get that. I don’t know enough about the internal tensions with Islam and Buddhism to comment about them, but I know to judge them on the fruit they lead to, and one of the fruits of the spirit is peace. If a religion does not lead to peace, the Holy Spirit is not working within it. If your Christian faith does not lead you to be a peacemaker, same thing.

  • Discerning The World

    >> No, no. Iggy is questioning my salvation because I asked Roger:

    Yeah got that part loud and clear…

    Regarding comment. Oops, sorry! Amanda did make this comment, but in direct response to Roger’s comment. So, Iggy still mis-quoting you, not taking into consideration what Roger said.

  • Amanda

    No, no. Iggy is questioning my salvation because I asked Roger:

    I am still curious. How do you justify from the Bible your belief that the Holy Spirit is at work in other religions?

  • Sorry that this is such a shotgun approach, but each of you will know who it is for as the Holy Spirit hits your heart and your anger rises against me.

    Amanda: What a shame that the emerging guy who is labeled postmodern stands up for the truth of the bible, and God’s sovereignty is then mocked. I did question the salvation of someone who denies the truth of the bible… but I guess that is wrong here. I also question how lying about others is considered a way to protect God’s truth… as God’s truth is given to grow and protect us… Your questions about how ineffective you saw the holy Spirit to be seemed to show a lack of faith in the Power of God to save… In that I see immaturity in the faith and possible that you are under some really bad teaching. If the truth of the Bible offends you, then I see there is a major issue.

    DTW: So also those who hate their brother does not have the truth in them… so DTW spreads hate against myself and other believers like me and shows who they really are… and stand. If you even had a clue as to what PM was and even more what you are saying… you would find that most people with some educational backing about PM and what you mock are laughing at you. Hate is not a Christian virtue nor is it a fruit of the Spirit… I recommend you read Matt 15:7-12…

    BTW I hit the reply button to Amanda… and I am not sure why WordPress put it where it did…

    Peace in the Name of our Lord Jesus Who is the Living Truth and the Living Word,

    iggy

  • Discerning The World

    Iggy.

    Yes they are and I don’t sit here waiting for you to comment so I can jump and approve it. All comments are allowed.

  • Discerning The World

    I like to do it this way, so I can keep up with everything that is being said. I ‘allow’ all comments…except foul language, people trying to use fake names – multiple split personalities, posting the same thing over and over again, they seemed relatively sane to start with but did not end that way…this is not spam, it’s real people.

    >> And thanks again for posting the comment…

    Pleasure, I never delete (unless above reasons etc) and if I do which I did once (on my old blog) cos I clicked the wrong button. I will comment with an apology and tell the person to come back and post what they said again – in the hopes they come back and read it…

  • Discerning The World

    Jon Trott

    >> Emergent. Good grief, I don’t even think the emergent folks know what they mean by that term.

    Well that’s quite silly don’t you think. I know what it means to be truly born again and a genuine born again Christian and I know what the Bible is actually saying, and I know what it means to belong to the Body of Christ and I know what it means to be a Child of God.

    But the Emergent Church don’t know what they believe, they speak the word ‘Emergent’ all the time but have nooooooooooo idea what it means? NOOOOOOOOOO?? You kidding!!!

    As per Brian McLaren there is no such thing as truth…or fact…or…what word Emergent actually means in fact I am wondering if you all think the Matrix series was actually true, or not…what does the words ‘all faiths e-merging into one religion’ mean? Good grief, what does anything mean anymore? Don’t know what sin is, don’t know what the Bible means for the Bible is not truth and can be interpreted any which way, for any religion. Let me help you here. Emergents are New Ages…huh!!!! Surprise!!!! Bet you didn’t know that either. Oh wait…wait are New Agers?

    Oohhhhhhhhhhh….maybe you should go ask Steve your friend to read more, study more and pray more…to the right God of course…the one and only living God who sent his only begotten Son Jesus Christ to die the most horrific death that you may be saved. Of course you need to accept HIM before He accepts you. He didn’t go through all that so you can just go ahead and still reject Him.

    >> Careful, gentle…

    Hmmmmm…very interesting choice of word there… what are you? I am born again , even a Jew or any other when saves becomes born again and is now a NEW person in Jesus Christ. Yes the Jewish race will always remain God’s chosen race…but they too like you need to accept Jesus Christ as their Saviour.

    >> you yourself are now at risk of violating the Word of God with unrighteous judgement and divisive, unedifying discourse.

    Oh I thought IDOL WORSHIP, the Worship of other GODS was unrighteous and caused a division between fake Christians and genuine Christians and COMPLETELY unedifying to God who says. Hmmm….wonder when this changed!!

    I think Nic said something similar to me. And I said,

    Deuteronomy 5:7-9

    7 you shall have no other gods before me.
    8 You shall not make for yourself an idol, whether in the form of anything that is in heaven above, or that is on the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.
    9 You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I the Lord your God am a jealous God, punishing children for the iniquity of parents, to the third and fourth generation of those who reject me,
    10 but showing steadfast love to the thousandth generation of those who love me and keep my commandments.

    Exodus 20:3-6
    3 Do not have any other gods before me.
    4 You shall not make for yourself an idol, whether in the form of anything that is in heaven above, or that is on the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.
    5 You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I the Lord your God am a jealous God, punishing children for the iniquity of parents, to the third and the fourth generation of those who reject me,
    6 but showing steadfast love to the thousandth generation of those who love me and keep my commandments.

    Exodus 34:11-17
    11 Observe what I command you today. See, I will drive out before you the Amorites, the Canaanites, the Hittites, the Perizzites, the Hivites, and the Jebusites.
    12 Take care not to make a covenant with the inhabitants of the land to which you are going, or it will become a snare among you.
    13 You shall tear down their altars, break their pillars, and cut down their sacred poles
    14 (for you shall worship no other god, because the Lord, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God).
    15 You shall not make a covenant with the inhabitants of the land, for when they prostitute themselves to their gods and sacrifice to their gods, someone among them will invite you, and you will eat of the sacrifice.
    16 And you will take wives from among their daughters for your sons, and their daughters who prostitute themselves to their gods will make your sons also prostitute themselves to their gods.
    17 You shall not make cast idols.

  • itodyaso

    Why are you censoring my last comment? Afraid people might learn the truth?

  • Discerning The World

    Not censoring your comments…

    I monitor all comments on my own and then approve them.

    Like I said earlier: “I like to do it this way, so I can keep up with everything that is being said. I ‘allow’ all comments…except foul language, people trying to use fake names – multiple split personalities (like Roger/Frank did and friend of Steve’s), posting the same thing over and over again (this is not spam, it’s real people), people who seemed relatively sane to start with but do not end that way after a few approved comments, people who blatantly lie and try turn my blog into something it’s not meant to be (an advertisement for false teaching). etc. I will let everyone have their say, until it gets out of hand, so don’t EVER come say I did not let you speak yur mind.”

  • itodyaso

    Amanda, If your question was to Roger in the way that meant that he is denying the Holy Spirits working in unbelievers coming to Jesus, I apologize, yet the question itself did not lead me to see that you were asking that.

    Again, DTW is misleading people in the lies that are being spread here. He is very much uninformed even on the simplest things and seems to now be censoring my comments to keep people from seeing the lies he is presenting.

  • itodyaso

    Edited by DTW

    Iggy – This one I deleted. Your websites are already linked to your name, as said, just let us all know who you are depending on which one of your blogges you are logged into at the time.

  • Discerning The World

    Iggy

    >> So also those who hate their brother does not have the truth in them

    No, for the bible tells us that those who speak another gospel and follow false teachers and another Christ are not bretheren, until they come to know Jesus Christ. We speak to them in love which is ALWAYS speaking the TRUTH. Not LIES covered in sugar and spice and all things nice.

    After this it’s their choice to accept Jesus Christ into their lives. I can’t force anyone to do this…I do not save people, Jesus Christ saves.

    I spread the good news of REPENTANCE OF SIN and that Jesus dies for everyone WHO MAKE A CHOICE TO ACCEPT HIM. But this is not good news to most…in fact it’s the most horrific news ever therefore are per you, I spread hate. Like said in another comment, telling someone they are sinful and need Jesus Christ in their lives and genuinely repent of sin is already considered a hate crime and people are being taken to court…for this…

    Will you be there to be a witness for me or against me when I am presented before a court for speaking the Gospel of Jesus Christ?

  • I see you let the one post through… but where are the others? Are comments monitored on this site? Usually it states it is or not.

  • Discerning The World

    >> I did accidentally post with a different name but I also posted in the comments it was still me. So I hope it did not fall under your “multiple split personalities” rule. Again, I did identify myself as to that I was both people.

    Understand, just say you are both so people know who’s commenting

    >> I try hard to just use this one but am only human and sometimes fail…

    I know what you are getting at here. AND there is a big different between sin and being human and failing sometimes….you should now that being a christian and all.

  • Discerning The World

    Oh here we go again… Brian McLaren

    Christianity Defaced as Emergent Movement Embraces Mysticism –

  • Discerning The World

    I tell you what, when New Age Emergents stop their loving insults, mockings, ridiculings etc of my Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ then…hey you will be on my side then and we wont be having this conversation and you would be sticking up for genuine Christians instead of faiths who bow down to Idols other Gods.

  • Discerning The World

    Iggy

    >> It saddens me that you claim Jesus yet choose to hate your brothers and sisters in Christ Jesus… and label them so you can justify your hate

    Yeah me too. When I read the websites of supposed South Africa Christians (emergents) who mock, insult, hate, degrade,ridicule Jesus Christ it saddens me too.

  • I do wish that before we all start tossing stones we’d stop and define what we mean by the words we use.

    Post-modern. The term is bandied about in this article quite a bit. But what does it mean? I see the claim that it means there is no such thing as truth. Actually, that is incorrect. Read Jacques Derrida and find out for yourself. But you have to actually read him and try understanding what he’s saying instead of hunting for sound bites with which he can be dispensed as “Satanic” or whatever. Sigh…

    Emergent. Good grief, I don’t even think the emergent folks know what they mean by that term. Is it really useful to attack an entire movement and/or group of people within the church?

    Careful, gentle, straightforward critique done in a spirit of love is what both the Church and world need.

    I think this post fails in that regard.

    De-christianizing Catholics? Oh, dear. I am unashamedly a Protestant, and have fairly severe differences of opinion w/ my Catholic sisters and brothers. But here’s the trouble with what you’ve done here — you yourself are now at risk of violating the Word of God with unrighteous judgement and divisive, unedifying discourse.

    Stand for what you believe the Word says. That is not only your right but your duty. But to cut off all Catholics as allegedly non-christian is to chop down the tree upon which your historical branch exists. It is silly, dangerous, and a bit astonishing, frankly.

    Fundamentalism has a noble history, esp. in its early years. But that was because its founders were intelligent, scholarly people.

    Please…. read more, study more. Pray more. Then post.

  • Discerning The World

    >> false claims

    I just quote form the horses mouth…I took the whole article from Steve’s blog where he quotes Volaitre and then says this is what WE, genuine Christians are going to be the cause of…go take your false claims and tell that to Steve!

    >> meanwhile here is an emerging guy on your blog speaking and fighting for Biblical truth

    Really? Biblical? Oh yeah…I keep forgetting that the bible can be interpreted and applied to all faiths, and that all religions lead to the same god.

    >> I am saddened by your false claims against people I know and I know love Jesus.

    You know or heard of Cobus van Wyngaard? If not go read his HORRIFIC, DIGUSING, HORRIFIC articles on his blog. Do you think this is nice? Do you think this edifies Jesus Christ in ANY WAY? Who do you think Cobus is MOCKING here?

    How unique was the suffering of Jesus? Not unique at all! –

    In fact every one of his articles are so blatantly anti-Christ… Cobus was at Amahoro to and love it!

  • “Yes they are and I don’t sit here waiting for you to comment so I can jump and approve it. All comments are allowed.”

    Ok… really that seems a little weird as if all comments are allowed, why do they need to be approved? You can set wordpress to allow comments from people who have already posted and still monitor for new comments in case a spammer gets through. It is pretty easy to do that. And thanks again for posting the comment…

  • I did accidentally post with a different name but I also posted in the comments it was still me. So I hope it did not fall under your “multiple split personalities” rule. Again, I did identify myself as to that I was both people. It depends on which blog I am logged into. I try hard to just use this one but am only human and sometimes fail…

  • So how many emerging people do you actually know in person? I have met even a few ODM figures who are really emerging and do not realize it believe it or not… they just seem to confuse what is going on and stick it to a group of people not realizing that the ec is not a group that all thinks alike. We agree on many points…

    Relationship is important, so relationship with Jesus is important.

    The Bible is our authority, though just as you disagree with other of your “camp” we also disagree.

    Respect of people that Jesus died for is important to us. If God’s grace is enough to save me it can save anyone!

    Trusting that God does not need our help and is not like some little old lady that needs help crossing the street.

    That Truth is not just proposition but the Person of Jesus who is Truth incarnate. From Him all truth comes. We do not see that biblical truth needs a qualifier to make it more true… that is Platonist Dualism and Humanist modernism that needs to qualifier truth… The bible teaches let your yes be yes and your no be no… so, Truth is either true or a lie… Once you add the qualifier then you are stating that there is lesser “truth” and the bible calls anything less that truth a lie. Most people in your camp fight for modernistic humanist view of “absolute truth” which is great in philosophy, but as far as biblical… not true. Read that a few times as that may be a bit hard to wrap a modernistic mindset over… We do not deny “Truth” but assert biblical Truth over man made definitions of truth.

    We hold a high Christology… that Jesus is able to save those He wills to save. Not all that are called Universalist are… they may be Arminian, yet if you understand history, Arminianism is not Pelagianism…. I am neither and know Calvinists, Arminians and many like myself who go back to the early Church Fathers if I want to read on others thoughts.

    We care about proper context of the bible. That means historical as well as what the bible is saying… By taking great care and time in looking at the who, what, where, when and how of bible passages, then you can better see what the author was really saying.

    Most emerging are postmillennial or partial to full preterist. I only know of a few hyper-preterists and I fully disagree with them. Most do not believe in the Rapture but hold dearly to the Resurrection and the New Creation. Many are heavily influenced by NT Wright… as well and other scholars. Rob Bell would be an example as well as Brian McLaren as to seeing the narrative of the Kingdom of God is now as well as future. As NT Wright states it, it is like two trains. One is moving toward the future and one is head from the future and one day the will meet. I see it as multiple layers… much like multiple dimensions where we are sitting with Jesus now in eternity though we are still here now on earth… and one day the old reality of here will pass and the new reality (the New Creation) will be in it’s fullness.

    The emerging conversation to many is the conversation started in Genesis when God stated, “Let there be…” and continues to speak to us through scripture. We believe that faith must have works and I know of only a few that may believe in “works” salvation… Really I can’t name any.

    I could go on… but wonder if it really will make a difference that often what is stated about emerging, is lies and that instead of attacking people who love Jesus as you do, getting to know them and seeing what they really do believe. Not all agree with Brian Mclaren, though if one really listens he brings up great points…. each are only voice and points in the conversation but not the whole conversation… as again this is God’s conversation that was lost in the ivory towers and taken now to the common man.

    To say someone like Brian Mclaren does not believe in truth is laughable and shows a true lack of understanding of what he says as well as others… I recommend you try to read some of the people you are criticizing without judging them and pray and study them out… to state “they are New Agers” is again laughable as my wife was in the New Age movement and I am quite aware about it and truly… they are not the same thing at all.

    Again, before you mock and state foolish things, you should try to just talk to someone like me instead of making things up or restating things other ignorant people are saying… gossip is a sin as well as slander and bearing false witness… and I am sure you do not want to do those things as the bible teaches us not to.

    iggy

  • Amanda

    Iggy

    Your questions about how ineffective you saw the holy Spirit to be seemed to show a lack of faith in the Power of God to save… In that I see immaturity in the faith and possible that you are under some really bad teaching. If the truth of the Bible offends you, then I see there is a major issue.

    I don’t know what you are talking about.

    Roger wrote:

    So your hope for Muslims is what, exactly? What about those ones who won’t become Christians? You wash your hands of them and don’t care what happens to them.

    and

    The Emergent teaching (whatever that is) is not about all faiths leading to one God – I don’t know where you get that. I don’t know enough about the internal tensions with Islam and Buddhism to comment about them, but I know to judge them on the fruit they lead to, and one of the fruits of the spirit is peace. If a religion does not lead to peace, the Holy Spirit is not working within it. If your Christian faith does not lead you to be a peacemaker, same thing.

    I asked him:

    How do you justify from the Bible your belief that the Holy Spirit is at work in other religions?

    What are you talking about?

  • Your quoting of the Old Testament passages — and fine passages they are — fails to even approximate an answer to the issues I raised.

    Your assertion is that the Catholic Church worships another God entirely.

    My assertion is that your assertion is nonsense.

    Neither set of verses — from Deuteronomy nor Exodus — has a thing to do with proving your assertion.

    True faith is known by its fruit. What is the deepest fruit? Agape = Charity = Love. A robust apologetics is needful for the Church, but when anyone — me or you — shouts AT people self-righteously proclaiming their own absolute knowledge of others’ faith… we are nothing more than a clanging gong or crashing cymbal.

    Love. We have it, or we don’t. And our faith is proven by LOVE… or it (to cite James) is dead.

  • It saddens me that you claim Jesus yet choose to hate your brothers and sisters in Christ Jesus… and label them so you can justify your hate. Again, hate is not a Christian virtue or of the Fruit of the Spirit… those that hate their brothers and sisters in Christ do not have the truth in them…

    Jesus even stated that we are to love our neighbors… and used the hated Samaritan as the example… they were despised by they “true believing Jew” yet Jesus called them the Jews neighbor and commanded us to love them. To not love God and others is to not obey God’s word…

    While we where yet enemies, Jesus died for us…

    This is Biblical truth and what you are saying goes against these truths. By your denying of these truths you are mocking God… meanwhile here is an emerging guy on your blog speaking and fighting for Biblical truth over human philosophy that has attached itself to it… and you then mock me. Yet, I do not care if you mock me as you mock only Jesus who you claim to love and follow… again, I am saddened by your false claims against people I know and I know love Jesus.

    Peace,
    iggy

  • Really your replies to Jon and some to me make no sense and irrational…

    Do you really love your neighbor as Jesus commands? Does loving your neighbor mean you can lie about them?

    Is your truth so fragile it needs you to protect it? Is your God so weak that He needs to hide behind you for protection?

    My God does not need my protection nor is His truth fragile… He protects me by His truth…

    If that is mocking your God, then I wonder… is your God really the God of the Bible or is mine?

    I am not meaning any of that as a put down, but sincerely hope you prayerfully consider the questions and search them out in the bible for yourself.

    iggy

  • Discerning The World

    Oh the fruits thing again – Geeee, it’s like I am stuck in the twighlight zone and keep hearing the same words over and over and over again. Emerging Zombies: Fruittttt….Fruittttttttttt…..Fruitttttttttttttttttttt….Must produce goooooodddddd Frooootttttt.

    Good Fruit only comes from a FIG TREE vs bad fruit from a THORN TREE – this what Emergents produce; fruit with thorns.

    And of course my verses mean nothing to you because you turn a blind eye to the Mary statues and statues of the Eucharist Christ permenently nailed to a crucifix.

    I LOVE by holding onto the bible for dear life and warning others out there of what’s coming soon….the last days right here

    My faith is to stand in the face of adversity and continue to problaim Jesus’ name loud and clear – which is the BEST FRUIT THERE IS – All good fruit comes from the true Gospel of Jesus Christ. False teaching looks like it produces good fruit, but in the end, people will suffer for listening and taking poisonus fruit from liars.

  • Amanda

    itodyaso

    Amanda, If your question was to Roger in the way that meant that he is denying the Holy Spirits working in unbelievers coming to Jesus, I apologize, yet the question itself did not lead me to see that you were asking that.

    He did not and I was not.
    Roger wrote:

    So your hope for Muslims is what, exactly? What about those ones who won’t become Christians? You wash your hands of them and don’t care what happens to them.

    and

    The Emergent teaching (whatever that is) is not about all faiths leading to one God – I don’t know where you get that. I don’t know enough about the internal tensions with Islam and Buddhism to comment about them, but I know to judge them on the fruit they lead to, and one of the fruits of the spirit is peace. If a religion does not lead to peace, the Holy Spirit is not working within it. If your Christian faith does not lead you to be a peacemaker, same thing.

    I asked him:

    How do you justify from the Bible your belief that the Holy Spirit is at work in other religions?

    Iggy took issue with my question to Roger.

  • I read the article you mentioned and see that you missed the point completely or that you disagree with bible when it states:

    “Romans 8: 17. Now if we are children, then we are heirs–heirs of God and co-heirs with Christ, if indeed we share in his sufferings in order that we may also share in his glory.”

    I think you totally missed what was stated in the article and miss part of our salvation is sharing in the sufferings of Jesus. Was Jesus’ sufferings just unique to Him? If so then we could not share in his sufferings… This is what the bible is teaching… do you not agree with what it teaches? There are other verses that back this up but this one is clear enough…

  • itodyaso

    Actually it is “Fruit” of the Spirit not fruits… and you keep saying that the Emergents produce bad fruit… I am emergent/emerging (which you seem to not know what either these are as well as the difference) without really giving proof. Good fruit is what God produces in and through us by His Holy Spirit and is not of our own works… bad fruit is legalism and anything that man makes… so since you are steeped in modernism, modernism being man made is contrary to God’s will and purpose..

    I keep pointing out verse after verse which YOU do not work through… I agree that much of the symbolism of Catholicism is not good… yet not all is bad. Calvin himself pulled from Augustine and St. Bernard (both considered mystics by the RCC and it seems if Calvin was alive today you would attack him also!)… so maybe a good historical history lesson about the church would help you greatly. Funny most of the emergent/emerging people I hang with proclaim Jesus loud and clear also… as well as love the people they are proclaiming to! You say you love to give warning… yes that is PART of the Good News… but you are missing the important part of love… Jesus stated that his disciples will be know for their love… right? I see love everywhere in emergent/emerging… is all good… no. But so much is unlike you say it is. Maybe you do not see it as you are blind to the ongoing conversation God started and continues in Christ Jesus.

    My faith is to totally trust in Jesus in all He has done and is still doing. We are to fight the good fight..that fight is of faith… of walking and abiding in Christ and not fighting against others. (1 TIm 6:12) It seems you have twisted that verse in such a perverse way and cannot see the damage and harm you do as you fight the fight for God instead of with God in YOUR OWN faith.

    So, Deborah, it seems you do not know what fruit is about and what the fight is agaisnt and for… Jesus told Peter to worry about himself and not others… and that Jesus would deal with others. THat is not out terriroy… but again that is a verse that must be missing from your own bible.

    Jesus is where we get the Life that saves us… not by works or by our beliefs. THe Holy Spirit guides us in all truth and so many want to be the Holy SPirit and do His job of convicting others. WHy do you want to usurp the Holy SPirit in His job?

    You have stated many slanderous things against people and mock GOd by using the world’s tools to do what God is doing… you stand in hte way of salvation for others and in that keep Jesus from others.

    My prayers are for you not against you… that you grow in the Grace and Kowledge of our Lord Jesus,

    iggy

  • Rebecca

    DAVID LETTERMAN’S HATE, ETC. !

    David Letterman’s hate is as old as some ancient Hebrew prophets.
    Speaking of anti-Semitism, it’s Jerry Falwell and other fundy leaders who’ve gleefully predicted that in the future EVERY nation will be against Israel (an international first?) and that TWO-THIRDS of all Jews will be killed, right?
    Wrong! It’s the ancient Hebrew prophet Zechariah who predicted all this in the 13th and 14th chapters of his book! The last prophet, Malachi, explains the reason for this future Holocaust that’ll outdo even Hitler’s by stating that “Judah hath dealt treacherously” and “the Lord will cut off the man that doeth this” and asks “Why do we deal treacherously every man against his brother?”
    Haven’t evangelicals generally been the best friends of Israel and persons perceived to be Jewish? Then please explain the recent filthy, hate-filled, back-stabbing tirades by David Letterman (and Sandra Bernhard and Kathy Griffin) against a leading evangelical named Sarah Palin, and explain why most Jewish leaders have seemingly condoned Palin’s continuing “crucifixion”!
    While David, Sandra, and Kathy are tragically turning comedy into tragedy, they are also helping to speed up and fulfill the Final Holocaust a la Zechariah and Malachi, thus helping to make the Bible even more believable!
    (For even more stunning information, visit MSN and type in “Separation of Raunch and State” and “Bible Verses Obama Avoids.”)

  • The book, Voltaire’s bastards was a critique of Western modernity’s obsession with reason and rationality, and in a way a plea for ways of knowing that are non-rational, which is one of the things that postmodernity is about. But this post seems to be merely irrational, raising up one straw man after another in order to knock it down, and for what? What is the point?

  • Discerning The World

    Rebecca

    I totally agree. Jews were also a major focus of inquisitions. Since the beginning of time actually Satan has been trying to wipe out the Jewish race – the line of Jesus Christ. And it wont stop. The world speaks about the horrors of the holocaust and at the same time try to eridicate Israel and say it’s in no way anti-semetic…pffff.

    But I have a bit of a shock for you Rebecca – what is also horrendus is the New Apostolic Reformation movement (of which Sarah Palin is part of) along with the Word of Faith momement are doing the exact same thing. Except they want Israel for themselves. Hence they believe the church is Israel and Israel is the church. They are creating an Army of God or Joels Army – they use Joel 2 to try back up that they have the right to take Jerusalem for themselves. They broadcast from Israel, they host trips to Israel, they even use Jewish Mysticism in their ‘prophecy’, they build tabernacles, they end their conversarions with shalom and so some extent are going back to keeping the law.

    It not only the Roman Catholic church who proclaim themselves to be Christian when they are clearly not. But the New Apostolic Reformation / Word of Faith / Latter Rain movements who proclaim to be Christian too but are not.

    Oh the disasters to be fall Israel soon….attacked from all sides. I pray for the Jewish race in ernest that they come to accept Jesus Christ as their Saviour.

    I pray I am not around to see multitudes of different armies marching towards Jerusalem to try claim it for themselves.

  • Discerning The World

    Iggy

    >> (which you seem to not know what either these are as well as the difference)

    Oh PUUULEASEEEEEE….Jon Trott said “Emergent. Good grief, I don’t even think the emergent folks know what they mean by that term.” …..I know exactly what it means. ‘All faiths lead to the same God’

    >> without really giving proof

    Why must I give proof of what Emergent/Emerging is. I know what it is, if you don’t knowwhat it is, then…go find out. I can quote many Emergent Leaders who CLEARY say and GIVE CLEAR meaning to what the Emerging movement is all about. That all faiths are to come together as one. Really…Iggy….come now…stop hiding what you REALLY believe.

    >> Good fruit is what God produces in and through us by His Holy Spirit and is not of our own works… bad fruit is legalism and anything that man makes… so since you are steeped in modernism, modernism being man made is contrary to God’s will and purpose..

    Do you drive a car? Do you watch TV? Oh my you use the internet. Please I urge you to delete your blogs as fast as possible!!! You modern person you lol. Anyhow are saying that the bible, Word of God is man made and not completely and fully God’s word, inspired by God, given to man through the Holy Spirit where man wrote down God’s word? Because I am a born again Christian who believes 100% in the the Bible and what it has to say and nothing else. Brian McLaren however says the Word of God is not final..that man can add to it. Jesus was a carpenter, Paul made tents to sell, Jesus wore man made sandles.

    >> I keep pointing out verse after verse which YOU do not work through

    What verses? Where? Oh you mean this 1, one, ONE verse you quoted below. I’ve looked through your other comments and can’t find other verses you quoted.

    >> I agree that much of the symbolism of Catholicism is not good… yet not all is bad

    Please, oh please tell us which parts are the good ones?

    >> Calvin himself pulled from Augustine and St. Bernard (both considered mystics by the RCC and it seems if Calvin was alive today you would attack him also!)…

    John Calvin bowed to the Roman Catholic church and even sent a man to his death via a Roman trial for disagreeing with him.

    >> Funny most of the emergent/emerging people I hang with proclaim Jesus loud and clear also… as well as love the people they are proclaiming to! You say you love to give warning… yes that is PART of the Good News… but you are missing the important part of love… Jesus stated that his disciples will be know for their love… right? I see love everywhere in emergent/emerging… is all good… no. But so much is unlike you say it is. Maybe you do not see it as you are blind to the ongoing conversation God started and continues in Christ Jesus.

    Yes, they says Jesus name loud and clear and then deny him the same day by agreeing with people who speak nothing but hate against Jesus Christ.

    Do you consider it to be good fruit when people mock, insult, ridicule, degrade Jesus Christ?

    If not, then why do you have anything to do with the Emergent Church who speak the name of Jesus Christ and then say the most hateful things about him?

    And if your answer is NO, surely people saying degrading things about Jesus Christ is not good fruit AT ALL!! So now please explain to us how the Emergent Church can produce good fruit as a whole when they are a THORN TREE.

    >> (1 TIm 6:12) It seems you have twisted that verse in such a perverse way and cannot see the damage and harm you do as you fight the fight for God instead of with God in YOUR OWN faith.

    Oh goodie, let’s go read Timothy 6. As we will see YOU ARE THE ONE WHO PERVETS the Word of God.

    1 Timothy 6:1, 3-5, 11-12, 20-21

    1 All who are under the yoke of slavery should consider their masters worthy of full respect, so that God’s name and our teaching may not be slandered.
    3 If anyone teaches false doctrines and does not agree to the sound instruction of our Lord Jesus Christ and to godly teaching,
    4 he is conceited and understands nothing. He has an unhealthy interest in controversies and quarrels about words that result in envy, strife, malicious talk, evil suspicions
    5 and constant friction between men of corrupt mind, who have been robbed of the truth and who think that godliness is a means to financial gain.

    11 But you, man of God, flee from all this, and pursue righteousness, godliness, faith, love, endurance and gentleness.
    12 Fight the good fight of the faith. Take hold of the eternal life to which you were called when you made your good confession in the presence of many witnesses.
    20 Timothy, guard what has been entrusted to your care. Turn away from godless chatter and the opposing ideas of what is falsely called knowledge,
    21 which some have professed and in so doing have wandered from the faith.
    Grace be with you.

    Ok, firstly the entire context of chapter 6 is actually about greed and money, but let’s put into the context you charge me with. A letter from Paul to Timothy. Timothy was having a bit of a problem with people who refused to listen to the Gospel of Jesus; who want to create their treasures on earth. In doing so, these people were slandering the name of God.
    Paul then tells Timothy that if anyone teaches false doctrine and does not agree with sound doctrine and Godly teaching as Jesus Christ COMMANDED; then these people are conceited and understand nothing – this means the Word of God, hence they use little verses here and there to mislead people with their evil plans.

    Paul says that corrupt men, who refuse the sound instruction of Jesus Christ to preach genuine teaching, are only interested in controversies and quarrels about ‘words’ that result in envy, strife, malicious talk, evil suspicions and constant friction. Paul says that these men who refuse sound teaching have NOT Truth in them and think that godliness is when you try to produce good works on earth (which means nothing). They think that trying to create ‘heaven on earth’ makes them special and godly.

    Paul then tells Timothy to run away from these people, FLEE THEM, and pursue those who are righteous, who have godliness, faith, love, endurance and gentleness for they are truly born again of the Holy Spirit. Paul tells Timothy however to NOT STOP FIGHTING the GOOD FIGHT (good fruit) of DEFENGING the FAITH (the true gospel of Jesus Christ – good news).

    Timothy is instructed to hold fast onto Jesus’ promise of eternal life when Timothy made a public confession that by accepting Jesus as his Saviour he will hold fast onto the truth and proclaim it at ALL COSTS. But at the same time, STAY AWAY from wicked people who refuse to hear the Truth. (Eternal life is not on this earth, but in Hevean, and this earth WILL not become HEAVEN. Emergent’s along with every other movement/religion out there are trying to create God’s Kingdom on earth (man’s kingdom) which is useless and ungodly)

    Paul tells Timothy to take care of the instructions that Jesus Christ entrusted to him. To not find himself ensnared in godless chatter with people who OPPOSE the Word of God. Who come along with NEW knowledge that is completely false (like good fruit that is actually bad fruit). Timothy (and ALL genuine Christians today) are NOT to try build relationships with those who are no longer following the gospel of Jesus Christ, but have wondered off the track and now follow new teaching/false teaching, which sounds biblical, but it not.

    ****

    So Iggy…as we can see your perverted interpretation of scripture is false, and as we can see the Word of God tells born again Christians to not engage in godless chatter with people who refuse to accept the truth. In fact we are not to engage with people who oppose the Word of God in any way. This includes those who quote verses from the bible as they try desperately to back up their NEW Kingdom knowledge and accept ideas from all religions around the world as well as being compatible to the Bible –which GOD also COMMANDS you NOT to do- because if you do, you deny Him.

    Hmmm…in fact, this ends my chat with you. You have the Word of God, the Bible. There is no excuse for you to follow people who have corrupt minds, who hide behind coffee and hugs.
    God speaks very clearly His message to you, via the Bible. Choose to follow what God says and stop twisting His word to suit your friend’s ideologies, or choose to follow your friends and the world. The bridges you try to build are built on false teaching and will crumble.

    Oh regarding ‘all’ those verses you quoted, I have only found the Romans 8 verse which I already answered.

    >> My prayers are for you not against you… that you grow in the Grace and Kowledge of our Lord Jesus,

    Lastly, please do not pray for me….I do not worship your god(s). I worship the God spoken of in the Bible, the God’s whos Holy Spirit abides in me. The God who sent His Only Son to die for me. The God who gives me strength to proclaim the Gospel of Jesus Christ always.

  • Discerning The World

    Ahhh then Steve what was your point then of writing what you did above? Insinuating, but quoting Voltaire that ‘Christians’ who he has confused with Roman Catholics who could not obey the commandment of ‘thou shalt not kill’ to save their lives. You have insinuated that those who hold onto the gospel are causing hostility. But you did not distinguish between genuine Christians and Roman Catholics. You lump us into the same category.

    Let me re quote you: “And it is this kind of oracular authority that represents the worst that modernity has to offer. Read the tale of the Grand Inquisitor in Dostoevsky’s The brothers Karamazov to see where this kind of thinking can lead to.”

    As Iggy said, modernity opposes the word of God, and I am the very worse of modernity, hence my thinking can be compared to Inquisitors of the Inquisitions.

    Pfff….go pull someone elses leg why don’t you Steve…you can’t hide you true feelings towards born again Christians.

  • Amanda

    Iggy

    I asked Roger:

    How do you justify from the Bible your belief that the Holy Spirit is at work in other religions?

    You wrote paragraphs about that one sentence including doubt about my salvation, the teaching that I am under, my rejection of the Word of God and my lack of maturity. All that from one sentence. I quoted three times what Roger actually said, yet to cannot or will not discern that. I do not understand this.

    Now you are quoting the Law. Is keeping the Law works or Gospel? Do you keep that Law?

    Help me out here, Iggy. Clearly we are not on the same page.

  • Discerning The World

    The links at the bottom of the article for Steve’s website the writer who says that ‘absolute truth’ will lead back to inquisitions. This should give you a good place to start searching for the real truth of what is going on.

    I do not read conspiracy, left behind rubbish. I read the Word of God. Everything you need to know is in there…go read it. It’s ALL in there.

  • Amanda

    I am with you there, Steve. The emergents are changing Christianity and it gets a bit tedious when they pretend that they are not. They are welcome to promote any kind of political system. They are welcome to change their theology. They are free to do all that, but they do not get to set the rules for fundamentalists, meaning those that hold to the fundamentals of the Reformed faith. I have no idea how they could ever think that the other side should remain silent or that they would simply become emergent, too, because some young theologian has better ideas on how God is supposed to operate outside of His revealed Word.

  • Amanda

    Sorry. Should read:
    yet you cannot or will not discern that. I do not understand this.

  • Deborah,

    Where do you get this information from? It appears to me that you are reading conspiracy theory blogs and Left Behind type novels and then interpreting the Bible from that perspective.

    I’m not being sarcastic, I really want to know.

  • Discerning The World

    Iggy

    You said: Emergent does not mean “all religions lead to one God” unless you understand that all religion is WRONG even even “religious” Christianity that denies Jesus and places works as the means of salvation.

    I’M FLABBERGHASTED!! WOW!! YOU FINALLY ADMIT THAT ALL RELIGIONS ARE CORRECT AS PER YOUR BELIEFS. Took a while but you got there….AWESOME, Thanks for FINALLY being honest! I know you have tried so hard to wangle your way out of this one, and written in riddles and said one thing that sounded biblical and then another that was a complete contradiction, but FINALLY I am glad (for the purpose of everyone else reading this blog) that you came clean….great stuff!!

    You said: “Unless I understand that all religion is wrong?” YES, all religion is WRONG except for Christianity based on the Bible. TRUE CHRISTIANITY, that is. As for your comment “even “religious” Christianity that denies Jesus and places works as the means of salvation.” LOL, you are seriously one special character…you don’t even know what you are saying half the time…but let me answer you in the hope that you GET IT: YES, “even “religious” Christianity that denies Jesus” – becauseeee THEY DENY Jesus Christ…pfffff….really….

    *********
    So again, as per Emergent thinking, ALL FAITHS can fight a good cause and produce god fruit and COME TOGETHER under the name of their God, which means that the Bible is compatible with all of the religions out there
    *********

    This will lead into a One Word Religion based on a new type of socialism. Where the human race and creation are now god and we can worship ourselves, God is all and all is in God – we are no different from God, this is why mankind can try create ‘heaven’ on earth. But this can only be a reality when we are all connected (and we can only be connected via occult practices like contemplative prayer, labyrinths etc). Everything and everyone will be equal (socialism) as we all transcend to a god level where we take dominion over earth. We need to go back to the past, they way they did things, because the capitalist system did not work. A new plan needs to be pushed onto the world, the capitalist system replaced with? A One World Religious Socialism.

    This is why Iggy you can say ridiculous things like, “all religion are the same as they are wrong” because the Emergent One World Religion will take the best from each Religion and merge them together to make a new religion that is acceptable to the entire WORLD. You can even be an Atheist, where you can deny the existence of any God. But even an Atheist will not deny himself if he finds out that is actually god!

    — Panentheism: All (pan) is in God, yet God is transcendent over everything. (Notice the difference between panentheism and pantheism). Some would assume that as everything in the universe (positioned in God) evolves, this unbiblical God would also evolve and grow in knowledge and complexity.
    — Pantheism: Everything is God and God is all. Since God is everything and everything is God, everything is sacred and interconnected.

    You said in a previous comment: (1 TIm 6:12) It seems you have twisted that verse in such a perverse way and cannot see the damage and harm you do as you fight the fight for God instead of with God in YOUR OWN faith.

    REPEAT OF PREVIOUS BIBLE SCRIPRUTE, because you I know you are not reading what I am saying….

    1 Timothy 6:1, 3-5, 11-12, 20-21

    1 All who are under the yoke of slavery should consider their masters worthy of full respect, so that God’s name and our teaching may not be slandered.
    3 If anyone teaches false doctrines and does not agree to the sound instruction of our Lord Jesus Christ and to godly teaching,
    4 he is conceited and understands nothing. He has an unhealthy interest in controversies and quarrels about words that result in envy, strife, malicious talk, evil suspicions
    5 and constant friction between men of corrupt mind, who have been robbed of the truth and who think that godliness is a means to financial gain.

    11 But you, man of God, flee from all this, and pursue righteousness, godliness, faith, love, endurance and gentleness.
    12 Fight the good fight of the faith. Take hold of the eternal life to which you were called when you made your good confession in the presence of many witnesses.
    20 Timothy, guard what has been entrusted to your care. Turn away from godless chatter and the opposing ideas of what is falsely called knowledge,
    21 which some have professed and in so doing have wandered from the faith.
    Grace be with you.

    Ok, firstly the entire context of chapter 6 is actually about greed and money, but let’s put into the context you charge me with. A letter from Paul to Timothy. Timothy was having a bit of a problem with people who refused to listen to the Gospel of Jesus; who want to create their treasures on earth. In doing so, these people were slandering the name of God.
    Paul then tells Timothy that if anyone teaches false doctrine and does not agree with sound doctrine and Godly teaching as Jesus Christ COMMANDED; then these people are conceited and understand nothing – this means the Word of God, hence they use little verses here and there to mislead people with their evil plans.

    Paul says that corrupt men, who refuse the sound instruction of Jesus Christ to preach genuine teaching, are only interested in controversies and quarrels about ‘words’ that result in envy, strife, malicious talk, evil suspicions and constant friction. Paul says that these men who refuse sound teaching have NOT Truth in them and think that godliness is when you try to produce good works on earth (which means nothing). They think that trying to create ‘heaven on earth’ makes them special and godly.

    Paul then tells Timothy to run away from these people, FLEE THEM, and pursue those who are righteous, who have godliness, faith, love, endurance and gentleness for they are truly born again of the Holy Spirit. Paul tells Timothy however to NOT STOP FIGHTING the GOOD FIGHT (good fruit) of DEFENGING the FAITH (the true gospel of Jesus Christ – good news).

    Timothy is instructed to hold fast onto Jesus’ promise of eternal life when Timothy made a public confession that by accepting Jesus as his Saviour he will hold fast onto the truth and proclaim it at ALL COSTS. But at the same time, STAY AWAY from wicked people who refuse to hear the Truth. (Eternal life is not on this earth, but in Heaven, and this earth WILL not become HEAVEN. Emergent’s along with every other movement/religion out there are trying to create God’s Kingdom on earth (man’s kingdom) which is useless and ungodly)

    Paul tells Timothy to take care of the instructions that Jesus Christ entrusted to him. To not find himself ensnared in godless chatter with people who OPPOSE the Word of God. Who come along with NEW knowledge that is completely false (like good fruit that is actually bad fruit). Timothy (and ALL genuine Christians today) are NOT to try build relationships with those who are no longer following the gospel of Jesus Christ, but have wondered off the track and now follow new teaching/false teaching, which sounds biblical, but it not.

    ****

    So Iggy…as we can see your perverted interpretation of scripture is false, and as we can see the Word of God tells born again Christians to not engage in godless chatter with people who refuse to accept the truth. In fact we are not to engage with people who oppose the Word of God in any way. This includes those who quote verses from the bible as they try desperately to back up their NEW Kingdom knowledge and accept ideas from all religions around the world as well as being compatible to the Bible –which GOD also COMMANDS you NOT to do- because if you do, you deny Him.

    Hmmm…in fact, this ends my chat with you. You have the Word of God, the Bible. There is no excuse for you to follow people who have corrupt minds, who hide behind coffee and hugs.

    God speaks very clearly His message to you, via the Bible. Choose to follow what God says and stop twisting His word to suit your friend’s ideologies, or choose to follow your friends and the world. The bridges you try to build are built on false teaching and will crumble.

  • Discerning The World

    Iggy

    Where did I misrepresent him and lie about him? Oh wait….I didn’t just like you have lied about everything else…and can’t remember what you said where and when. Is lying part of your baskets of ‘good’ fruits the Emergents are presenting to the world…

    >> If so I ask God to do as He will be it blind you completely

    Woahhhhhhhhhhhhhh you have the power to ask God to do that? Wow. Must be that Emergent god-being in you that can say something like that. Oh hang on. As per New Age when you ascended to a higher level you will be able to see through God’s eyes. Which means you will have transcended to that god-level spoken so much about at Amahoro. Where y’all can be little gods in your man made kingdom on earth…

    Opps I keep forgetting what I said at the end of Timothy 6 that you wanted me to read and explain to you: REPEAT OF PREVIOUS BIBLE SCRIPRUTE….1 Timothy 6:1, 3-5, 11-12, 20-21

    Read through comments..I think I have now posted this three times now. Not going to post the whole thing again.

  • Emergent does not mean “all religions lead to one God” unless you understand that all religion is WRONG even “religious” Christianity that denies Jesus and places works as the means of salvation.

    So once again, as an “Emergent” I know what I believe and you are stating out right lies about me. Jesus is the ONLY way of salvation. All religion is man’s way of appeasing and angry God while true Christianity is God being please with man by the finished works of Christ. So please stop lying about people like me. Do you not understand that you are doing this to ME and persecuting me with lies and slander while bearing false witness against me with such statements? In the end you only show ignorance and that you would rather love lies and spread them than understand and know truth and reality… so in that sense you are “the worse modernity offers” and I agree…

    But why represent modernity at all? It is as bad as Post-modernity and both are contrary to the bible in their raw form… so the emergent call is for people like you to come back to the REAL of the Christian faith and forsake the garbage of modernity and other things that have been allowed to attach themselves to the Christian faith… and that is what you are fighting against. People who desire to worship God as God intended in the purest form. Yes there is experimentation out there and things I am not happy with. Yet, not all is as bad as you represent it and it makes it harder for those like myself to address the issues in-house as I must also address the lies from outside like the ones you are stating over and over without any real facts to back them. That was the power of Nazism BTW. I am not calling you a Nazi, but hoping you see that the tactic of telling a lie so much that it become truth in people eyes is a tactic of Nazism and ultimately Satan… so you are becoming Satan’s pawn by spreading hate and lies.

    I know that may sound mean, but it is truth… and if you desire to know God and follow Him then I pray you will take time to pray about that…

    I know that most likely you will be angry and now tell me I am Satan’s pawn as “Emergent is blah, blah blah…” but then you will be doing Satan’s bidding once again… SO I PLEAD THE BLOOD OF JESUS WITH YOU THAT YOU PRAY AND SEEK HIS VIEWS ON THIS and not lean on your own understanding.

    So far I have proven most things you stated here as a lie that you state about Emergent as when you state something I have stated it is not true as being one myself, also not believing in what you stated…. do you not see that my very existence proves you a liar? That if I am Emergent and do not believe as you state you lie about me? So please stop lying about people like me for your own sake and for Christ Jesus’ sake.

    iggy

  • BTW Eugene is a friend of mine and you are also lying and misrepresenting him… I really suggest you take a comprehensive reading course to be able understand what you read as you read things and see them and twist them to be what they are not… so either you need to learn how to read with more comprehension or have allowed Satan so so blind you with hate against your brothers and sisters in Christ that you cannot see. If so I ask God to do as He will be it blind you completely or open your eyes so you can see the damage you are doing. Either way I place you in God’s Hands and that He deals with you.

    iggy

  • Discerning The World

    Iggy

    YOU SAID TO ME. “unless you understand that all religion is WRONG”

    See you lying again… I did NOT in any way insinuate and never have during this entire conversation that all religions are correct….YOU AGREED THAT THEY ARE, and and then you go and say it again with: “As I said all religion are the same as they are wrong…” Bwwahahahahahhahahaha on my. And Nic backs you up on that one, with his latest comment.

    REPEAT OF PREVIOUS BIBLE SCRIPRUTE: 1 Timothy 6:1, 3-5, 11-12, 20-21

  • I see you are willing to twist everything I said to meet your own twisted and perverted pleasure…

    So you think all religions are good? As I said all religion are the same as they are wrong… even Christianity if presented as works and as a vehicle of hate as you are doing. You have proven me right in every comment about you and also have shown you lack of knowledge of the bible you claim as believing so strongly…

    So in a very sad way I will say thanks… and continue to pray for you that you find your way out of religion and into the arms of Jesus…. Jesus came to give us Live and not the religion you are preaching. Please, in the Name of Jesus stop abusing the bible and Jesus and using them as worldly tools of hate.

    I wish you well on your journey and pray you find the Living Christ Jesus and that He will dwell in your heart for all eternity.

    iggy

  • Edited by DTW because:

    Iggy refuses to read and quote people accurated and insists on lying. Therefore comments will now be deleted. You have had ample space to air your views here.

  • itodyaso

    Edited by DTW because:

    Iggy refuses to read and quote people accurated and insists on lying. Therefore comments will now be deleted. You have had ample space to air your views here.

  • Amanda

    Iggy

    I am sure that everybody here are sick of me quoting Roger’s actual words. Why don’t you set the example by reading my previous replies to you and demonstrate the reading comprehension standards that you advocate.

    One more time. Roger said:

    So your hope for Muslims is what, exactly? What about those ones who won’t become Christians? You wash your hands of them and don’t care what happens to them.

    and

    The Emergent teaching (whatever that is) is not about all faiths leading to one God – I don’t know where you get that. I don’t know enough about the internal tensions with Islam and Buddhism to comment about them, but I know to judge them on the fruit they lead to, and one of the fruits of the spirit is peace. If a religion does not lead to peace, the Holy Spirit is not working within it. If your Christian faith does not lead you to be a peacemaker, same thing.

    I asked him:

    How do you justify from the Bible your belief that the Holy Spirit is at work in other religions?

    Can you recall what your response to my one line question was? Why don’t you use your discernment on Roger’s statements and tell us why my question to him provoked you to such an extent?

  • Amanda

    Iggy

    What do you make of emergent/emerging/merging Reverend Cobus van Wyngaard’s writing on his blog: the day universalism knocked on my door:

    This [universalism] was a doctrine to be feared, some had to go to hell to legitimize the God we prayed to (if you find yourself within this approach, and distance yourself from fundamentalism, wouldn’t you please leave a better understanding in the comment section).

    Some had to go to hell to legitimize the God we prayed to?

    Am I willing to also say that those Lutherans [German soldiers] would go to the metaphysical place called heaven as well while their Jewish victims go the Dante’s hell?

    Can you answer that question from the Bible, Iggy?

    I don’t think Universalism is the answer, so please don’t quote me for saying so. But I do think the system that I had (and whether this was an accurate understanding of Reformed doctrine is highly debateble) wasn’t addequate, and that it has to be modified.

    I added the bold for fun.

    This is some of the questions that we really need to look at somewhat more seriously.

    Ds. Cobus is a fully ordained minister in the DRC in South Africa and he does not except that the unbelieving Jew will go to hell and the Christian soldier will go to heaven. What do you say, Iggy?

  • Discerning The World

    >> SO I PLEAD THE BLOOD OF JESUS WITH YOU

    No No….your ‘Jesus’ is not MY JESUS CHRIST the Son of God. For you deny Jesus Christ over and over and over again in this entire thread. And your friends back you up by saying similar things.

  • Discerning The World

    Nah…no one can twist what you say Igyy; “all religion are the same as they are wrong”

    Also no one can twist what Nic said; “Matthew Fox believes that the persepective of “panentheism” – God is IN all, all is In God, is the one which will endure. In fact, he states it is preferable to be an atheist than a “theist”.

    How about this one from Nic: “I know there will be those who will disagree, but as I see it now, to quote an age old adage, “God is a circle whose centre is everywhere and whose circumference is nowhere.”

    Or this one from Nic: “I want you to know that the carrot and stick – the promise of heaven and the threat of hell – is not the only way of seeing the gospel.”

    ****
    I think y’all need to have coffee more often, and plan how to keep your story straight.
    ****

  • Discerning The World

    Eugene

    Yes, shocking to realise isn’t it. Nic, Iggy, Steve even Cobus van Wyngaard (who I linked too and ask if they agree with his horrific articles about Jesus) have said many things to make it PERFECTLY clear that they preach another Jesus Christ. The false Christ the Bible warned us about. Go read above what they have said if you care and understand that they are insulting the Jesus Christ you profess to love – and you sit and take it??? And just because I say ‘friends’ I do not necessarily mean you. Stop taking everything so personally. If I don’t quote your name then I am not talking about you.

  • Discerning The World

    In fact go watch this video to see what someone who REALLY LOVES Jesus Christ feels when someone insults Him!!

  • Discerning The World

    I already wrote an article about Romans 8 here:

    Born Again Christians will understand what this really means and just to help you a bit. It does not mean when we became born again we actually become a god, or become Jesus Christ! And Heaven is in Heaven. The Kingdom of God is Jesus Christ who was since the beginning. Born of the Holy Spirit, walked this earth sinless, died sinless and rose to be seated at the right hand of the Father and will return on when He is to JUDGE THIS EARTH.

    You think that if we suffer on earth then we get to become like Him, just as He suffered to transcend, so we will transcended to a god level. And when we need to meditate to connect with God, hear his voice. Then we will start to transcend step by step as we start to learn what it means to suffer. Until you reach the ultimate level, where you actually become a Christ.

    What you say is NOT what the BIBLE TEACHES. You are a New Age Occult follower. You and all others who think alike want to place yourself on the same level as Jesus Christ.

  • Discerning The World

    Iggy…bla, bla, bla, you speak double talk.

  • Discerning The World

    Of course my replies to Jon and some make no sense to you because you believe in an entirely different gospel to that written in the Word of God. You all believe that all religions can come together and produce good fruit. The Bible says this is impossible.

  • Discerning The World

    Was Jesus’ suffering just unique to Him? And you say NO!!! WHAT THE??? You kidding?? So Jesus is now on your level too, and everyone else’s level. He has been brought down from HIS THROWN to your piddly little standard. HE IS THE KING OF ALL KINGS not your play mate.

  • Discerning The World

    Also if you care you can go research the internet. You don’t even have to look far to see what is going on. Then go by a decent study bible and a strong’s concordance and search for the truth. Don’t take my word for it, don’t even take others word for it. Go find out for yourself, listen to God instead of men who are trying to place themselves on the level of God.

  • No No….your ‘Jesus’ is not MY JESUS CHRIST the Son of God. For you deny Jesus Christ over and over and over again in this entire thread. And your friends back you up by saying similar things.

    WOW!!! :roll: WOW!!!

  • Discerning The World

    Amanda

    I thought I would allow this one through from Iggy cos it’s actually quite funny…

  • Discerning The World

    REPEAT FOR IGGY and NIC and Co.

    Nah…no one can twist what you say Igyy; “all religion are the same as they are wrong”

    Also no one can twist what Nic said; “Matthew Fox believes that the persepective of “panentheism” – God is IN all, all is In God, is the one which will endure. In fact, he states it is preferable to be an atheist than a “theist”.

    How about this one from Nic: “I know there will be those who will disagree, but as I see it now, to quote an age old adage, “God is a circle whose centre is everywhere and whose circumference is nowhere.”

    Or this one from Nic: “I want you to know that the carrot and stick – the promise of heaven and the threat of hell – is not the only way of seeing the gospel.”

  • Discerning The World

    Eugene

    Nah…no one can twist what you say Igyy; “all religion are the same as they are wrong”

    Also no one can twist what Nic said; “Matthew Fox believes that the persepective of “panentheism” – God is IN all, all is In God, is the one which will endure. In fact, he states it is preferable to be an atheist than a “theist”.

    How about this one from Nic: “I know there will be those who will disagree, but as I see it now, to quote an age old adage, “God is a circle whose centre is everywhere and whose circumference is nowhere.”

    Or this one from Nic: “I want you to know that the carrot and stick – the promise of heaven and the threat of hell – is not the only way of seeing the gospel.”

  • Amanda,

    I will answer any questions but not here as DTW edits commits. He or she may even edit this one as they are so dishonest.

    They claimed all comments would be allowed and then edited mine. They then twist my words to mean the opposite of what I say.

    John 8:42-44

  • Deborah, the way you twist other people’s words to mean the opposite of what they are saying is shocking!

  • Amanda

    Iggy

    He or she may even edit this one as they are so dishonest.

    Yes, they are. You claim to stand on the Word of God, but failed to discern Cobus and Roger’s statements Biblicly. Yet my one sentence provoked paragraphs from you. When I gave you the context and even asked for clarification, you were contend to let your comments stand. I am happy to stay here, thank you.

  • “all religion are the same as they are wrong”

    If by religion he meant trying to please God by our own works then he is absolutely right. Iggy further stated:

    even “religious” Christianity that denies Jesus and places works as the means of salvation.
    So he said than religion is wrong when it is about trying to put oneself right with God apart from the saving work of Jesus Christ. In that sense all religions are the same. Do you disagree with this?

    “Matthew Fox believes that the persepective of “panentheism” – God is IN all, all is In God, is the one which will endure. In fact, he states it is preferable to be an atheist than a “theist”.

    Do you believe that God is omnipresent? If you do then please explain how He can NOT be in all. Do you believe God is bigger than everything created? Is not everything then in Him? panentheism is not God is everything and everything is God(pantheism) – BIG difference.

    As for the atheist/theist part – I’m scratching my head on that one. I’ll ask Nic about it before I jump to conclusions like you.

    “I want you to know that the carrot and stick – the promise of heaven and the threat of hell – is not the only way of seeing the gospel.”

    There is much, much more to the gospel than an escape clause when we die. The restoration of relationship with God is a much bigger prize than not ending up in hell. Please note that Nic did not deny the existence of heaven or hell but only stated that there is more to the gospel than making that the end all.

    Out of these quotes you gather that they do not serve the same Jesus as you? Really?

    Deborah and Amanda, there is something called charitable reading. Try it, you might be pleasantly surprised. And if in doubt – ask. You know what they say about assume…

  • I got the blockquote thing wrong there… Sorry!

  • Amanda

    Deborah and Amanda, there is something called charitable reading. Try it, you might be pleasantly surprised. And if in doubt – ask. You know what they say about assume…

    No. So let me ask you now. What do they say? I asked Roger a question more than once on more than one thread. I asked Iggy a few times on this thread. Where did I fall short? Should I regard your comment to me as a result of you reading my comments charitably? I do not understand this.

    Something else I do not understand is why the emergents will not own up that they are in fact trying to emerge from Christianity. Is that not what Brian McLaren said at Amahorror, that we must be ready to move on? Where those who hold to the fundamentals of the faith supposed to emerge too or just play dead?

    Out of these quotes you gather that they do not serve the same Jesus as you? Really?

    Eugene, do you serve the same Jesus Christ as the fundamentalists?

    Roger said:

    If a religion does not lead to peace, the Holy Spirit is not working within it.

    Ds. Cobus said:

    Am I willing to also say that those Lutherans [German soldiers] would go to the metaphysical place called heaven as well while their Jewish victims go the Dante’s hell?

    Nic said:

    ” I rejoice at the presence of the Trickster in a barren land of closed thought, for quite apart from being the bringer of death and destruction, he in fact is a catalyst for life and salvation. I now look at Jesus as embodying (amongst all things divine) this trickster, as well.”

    ” I suggest that this is where the trickster comes to assist us. His realm includes ambiguity, irony, and play, incompleteness and chaos, holding in tension and suspending belief, generosity and cruelty, imagination, flexibility and cunning shifting of shape, the boundaries between life and death, and making connections where they are not supposed to be.”

    How does one make those statements line up with the Word of God? Is it charity for fundamentalists to keep silent about them?

  • You really do tell whopping lies, don’t you?

    1. I did not quote Voltaire.
    2. I said nothing about born-again Christians
    3. I said nothing about Roman Catholics.

    Go and wash your mouth out with soap, you naughty child!

  • Just came across this post and I’m intrigued by the definition of post-modernity you’re using. Can you provide the source?

  • Discerning The World

    Steve

    Quite feisty for an old man

  • Discerning The World

    Well if Modernity is holding on the the truth of the Bible, then Post-Modernity is not holding onto the truth of the Bible. Simple eh? But I am sure Chad, Nic, Iggy, Eugene, Roger, Steve, and all the Emerging posse can provide you with New Age souces to keep you busy for years..

  • “Well if Modernity is holding on the the truth of the Bible…”

    At the risk of sounding like a broken record, where did that one come from? With all due respect it sounds to me like you’re constructing these definitions to fit your world view. (Ironically, according to your own definition, that’s very postmodern of you!)

  • Discerning The World

    Mike, it’s very cleat what Steve wrote who is Emergent. And that’s not the point of this article. Everyone is complaining that the definition of what PM or Emergeing is can be this or that…quite frankly I could not care what Emergent’s think is PM or M or XYZ. The point is that born again Christians mocked and insulted by Emergents, and no one can deny this, except for those who agree that born again Christians who are the very worst of Modernity’s thinking can lead to persecution.

    I’ve had enough of this rather obvious argument meant soley as a diversion from the facts presented by Emergent followers. If you want to discuss the meaning of a word please do go and have a field day on Steve or Nic’s or Rogers or Iggy’s blogs. If you want more info on shamanism or occult practices Nic’s blog is the way to go.

  • Amanda

    Christians will find the review of Velvet Elvis by Mark Edward Sohmer helpful.

    One of the reasons that Rob Bell has risen to such popularity is because he professes to answer a question that has emerged in our history, and that is, how do we reach a “postmodern” world?

    Postmodernism is in many ways a reaction against the “modern” way of thinking. Where a modernist sees the value of structure and hierarchy, a postmodernist holds to relativism and a rethinking of concepts which were once considered axiomatic. Enter Rob Bell and teachers like him. They argue that the church is far too rigid, too dogmatic, too structured. Rob calls the church “brickianity.” And his solution is to redefine Christianity, to paint it as fluid and changeable. Rob uses the illustration of “springs” to convey the way we ought to view our Theology.’

    The bulk of this review has been critical of Rob Bell and his Theology, and so I believe it is appropriate to offer the proper alternative. Rob teaches that we ought to redefine Christianity to fit the worldview of the postmodern world. The postmodern world shuns structure and dogmatism, so teachers like Rob Bell tell us that the church ought to as well. This is evident all throughout Velvet Elvis, as documented in detail throughout this review. So what is the proper way to reach the postmodern world? The answer is found in the Scriptures. Amazingly, the Scriptures really are in fact “profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness” (2 Timothy 3:16).

    The world in Jesus’ day wasn’t all that different than how it is today. There truly is nothing new under the sun. And a group of undereducated Jewish men changed the world through preaching the cross. And the world can be changed today the exact same way. How do you reach a postmodern world? The wrong way is to change the church to follow the culture, as Rob Bell does. The right way is to preach Christ and Him crucified.

    An interesting thing happened to me when I became a Christian. I didn’t grow up in a Christian home -mquite the contrary! I grew up in a liberal Jewish home, very hostile to the claims of Christianity. I was a young man who was very hesitant to even open a New Testament to read any portion of it.

    But here’s what happened to me: God changed my heart. It’s that simple and that amazing. I was once,dead in my transgre,ssions, an enemy of God, but He reached out and rescued me and turned me into a,child of God. And when that happened, all of a sudden my heart changed and I loved the things God,loves and I hated the things God hates. I turned from my love for sin and instead I began to hunger for,the Bible – even the New Testament! I couldn’t wait to attend church services and Bible studies and Christian retreats.

    The difference was that God took out my old heart and gave me a new one. This is what happens when a man or woman repents of their sin and believes the gospel. They become a new creation. It would have been disastrous if someone had come up to me and said, “Mark, we know you don’t like Jesus and don’t like the New Testament. That’s okay. God loves you just the way you are. You don’t need to repent or even put your faith in Christ. It’s okay. We have a church service, but we don’t call it church. We’ll call it a gathering and it’s run by facilitators instead of Elders.” That would have been terrible! I didn’t need new definitions of Christianity. I needed a new heart. And when God gave me a new heart, then all of a sudden I didn’t mind conforming myself to the Bible, rather than conforming the Bible to me.

    That’s what the postmodern world needs: the preaching of the cross. So Christian, if you’re reading this, and you have a hunger to reach the postmodern world, then preach the cross. Don’t change the church to conform to the culture. Preach the gospel, the whole gospel, because it is “it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth” (Romans 1:16). The preaching of the Word of God has always been the way God has changed hearts. It is still the only way He does it today. When people are reconciled to God, and they receive a new heart, the concerns of postmodernism become irrelevant.

  • Ray

    Your quote:

    “One hundred years from my day there will not be a Bible in the earth except one that is looked upon by an antiquarian curiosity seeker.” – Francois Arouet De Voltaire

    Please provide —

    Document written by Voltaire in which the quote exists (I do not mind going to the French to read it); or, alternatively,

    Original source document reflecting this statement by Voltaire in public or private (where, when, to what audience, and the source document reporting the making of the statement).

    I mean — it is about truth, and if we’re going to be making statements, I just want to do what Christian’s demand of the “world’s” scholars — make sure that it’s true and not just a Christian “warm fuzzy.”

    Thanks.

  • Discerning The World

    This quote is supposed to be considered one of Voltaire’s infamous quotes: “One hundred years from my day there will not be a Bible in the earth except one that is looked upon by an antiquarian curiosity seeker.” But I see now that it’s highly possible that he didn’t make this statement….so I will replace it with a quote he did make and these ones are worse than the last. I hope these give you a warm fuzzy feeling all over.

    L’Éternel a ses desseins de toute éternité. Si la prière est d’accord avec ses volontés immuables, il est très inutile de lui demander ce qu’il a résolu de faire. Si on le prie de faire le contraire de ce qu’il a résolu, c’est le prier d’être faible, léger, inconstant; c’est croire qu’il soit tel, c’est se moquer de lui. Ou vous lui demandez une chose juste; en ce cas il la doit, et elle se fera sans qu’on l’en prie; c’est même se défier de lui que lui faire instance ou la chose est injuste, et alors on l’outrage. Vous êtes digne ou indigne de la grâce que vous implorez: si digne, il le sait mieux que vous; si indigne, on commet un crime de plus en demandant ce qu’on ne mérite pas.
    En un mot, nous ne faisons des prières à Dieu que parce que nous l’avons fait à notre image. Nous le traitons comme un bacha, comme un sultan qu’on peut irriter ou apaiser.
    The Eternal has his designs from all eternity. If prayer is in accord with his immutable wishes, it is quite useless to ask of him what he has resolved to do. If one prays to him to do the contrary of what he has resolved, it is praying that he be weak, frivolous, inconstant; it is believing that he is thus, it is to mock him. Either you ask him a just thing, in which case he must do it, the thing being done without your praying to him for it, and so to entreat him is then to distrust him; or the thing is unjust, and then you insult him. You are worthy or unworthy of the grace you implore: if worthy, he knows it better than you; if unworthy, you commit another crime by requesting what is undeserved.
    In a word, we only pray to God because we have made him in our image. We treat him like a pasha, like a sultan whom one may provoke or appease.

    “Prayers” (1770)

    Prier Dieu c’est se flatter qu’avec des paroles on changera toute la nature.
    To pray to God is to flatter oneself that with words one can alter nature.
    Notebooks (c.1735-c.1750)

    Si Dieu nous a faits à son image, nous le lui avons bien rendu.
    If God has made us in his image, we have returned him the favor.
    Notebooks (c.1735-c.1750)

    Elle [la nation juive] ose étaler une haine irréconciliable contre toutes les nations; elle se révolte contre tous ses maîtres. Toujours superstitieuse, toujours avide du bien d’autrui, toujours barbare, rampante dans le malheur, et insolente dans la prospérité.
    The Jewish nation dares to display an irreconcilable hatred toward all nations, and revolts against all masters; always superstitious, always greedy for the well-being enjoyed by others, always barbarous — cringing in misfortune and insolent in prosperity.
    Essai sur les Moeurs et l’Esprit des Nations (1753), Introduction, XLII: Des Juifs depuis Saül

    Quand il s’agit d’argent, tout le monde est de la même religion.
    When it is a question of money, everybody is of the same religion.
    Letter to Mme. d’Épinal, Ferney (1760-12-26) from Oeuvres Complètes de Voltaire: Correspondance (Garnier frères, Paris, 1881), vol. IX, letter # 4390 (p. 124)

    anti-Roman Catholic (all Christians have been lumped into this category unfortunately. BORN AGAIN CHRISTIANS ARE NOT CATHOLIC, but we will pay the price for Rome’s evil deeds)

    Où est le prince assez instruit pour savoir que depuis dix-sept cents ans la secte chrétienne n’a jamais fait que du mal?
    Where is the prince sufficiently educated to know that for seventeen hundred years the Christian sect has done nothing but harm?
    Letters of Voltaire and Frederick the Great (New York: Brentano’s, 1927), transl. Richard Aldington, letter 160 from Voltaire to Frederick II of Prussia, 1767-04-06 [6]

    C’est une grande question parmi eux s’ils [les africains] sont descendus des singes ou si les singes sont venus d’eux. Nos sages ont dit que l’homme est l’image de Dieu: voilà une plaisante image de l’Être éternel qu’un nez noir épaté, avec peu ou point d’intelligence! Un temps viendra, sans doute, où ces animaux sauront bien cultiver la terre, l’embellir par des maisons et par des jardins, et connaître la route des astres il faut du temps pour tout.
    It is a serious question among them whether they [Africans] are descended from monkeys or whether the monkeys come from them. Our wise men have said that man was created in the image of God. Now here is a lovely image of the Divine Maker: a flat and black nose with little or hardly any intelligence. A time will doubtless come when these animals will know how to cultivate the land well, beautify their houses and gardens, and know the paths of the stars: one needs time for everything.
    Les Lettres d’Amabed (1769): Septième Lettre d’Amabed

    “Si Dieu n’existait pas, il faudrait l’inventer.” Mais toute la nature nous crie qu’il existe; qu’il y a une intelligence suprême, un pouvoir immense, un ordre admirable, et tout nous instruit de notre dépendance.
    “If God did not exist, He would have to be invented.” But all nature cries aloud that he does exist: that there is a supreme intelligence, an immense power, an admirable order, and everything teaches us our own dependence on it.
    Voltaire quoting himself in his Letter to Prince Frederick William of Prussia (1770-11-28), translated by S.G. Tallentyre, Voltaire in His Letters, 1919.

    Le mieux est l’ennemi du bien.
    The best is the enemy of the good.
    Variant translations:
    The perfect is the enemy of the good.
    The better is the enemy of the good.

    La Bégueule (1772)

    Je meurs en adorant Dieu, en aimant mes amis, en ne haïssant pas mes ennemis et en détestant la superstition.
    I die adoring God, loving my friends, not hating my enemies, and detesting superstition.
    Déclaration de Voltaire, note to his secretary, Jean-Louis Wagnière (1778-02-28)

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Terms and Conditions for Submission of Comments

Born Again Christians Compared to Inquisitors of the Inquisitions

Terms and Conditions:terms and conditions

Because this world is becoming more evil by the minute and Discerning the World is coming under attack more often from people with some very nasty dispositions, we now have ‘Terms and Conditions for Submission of Comments‘ which you need to agree too before you can comment – this is to protect us and you when you comment on this website.  If you are not here to harm Discerning the World and it’s authors, please by all means comment, however if you are here to cause harm in any way, please don’t comment.

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