Satan the Trickster – Embracing the Emerging Snake
Satan the Trickster – Embracing the Emerging Snake
Nic Paton from (soundandsilence.wordpress.com) has this thing about being credited for his work, his thoughts, his beliefs. He has been making comments on my blog telling me that he can’t find Jesus in me or my writings/blog because I just don’t want to agree with his lying, trickster personality.
After I wrote my article: Born Again Christians are Now Compared to Inquisitors of the Inquisitions based on a post written by Steve (khanya.wordpress.com) who lovingly compared the teaching of the Word of God and those who preach the truth to Inquisitors of the Inquisition. My blog was bombarded with very very very angry Emergents who lambasted me for disagreeing with Steve. See Emergents are allowed to make the most horrendous comments about born again Christians and Jesus Christ the Son of God but we are not allowed to disagree.
Nic Paton said to me:
“The way you are dealing with my comments, the absolute willful misinterpretation of my freely offered thoughts, the stubborn refusal to converse, your gleeful burning down of your own straw man arguments, the ongoing infantile sarcasm, the complete lack of credit given to anyone who you disgree with, your deeply flawed misunderstanding of philosophy and theology, and your rote bible bashing, is to me, a travesty of Christian witness.
I’m trying, Deborah, to find the God in all this, I’m trying to believe the best, but at the moment, I’m just not seeing the Jesus you boast about being so in love with in these words.” – 2009/06/26 at 3:06pm
Well Nic, besides the fact that we will never know when you are telling the truth. You are right about one thing and that is I will never agree with anything you have to say. But you are wrong on another because I sure will credit you for everything you have to say.
The Holy Trickster by Nic Paton
Featuring The Jester-Fool, Coyote-Jackal, Br’er Rabbit, Homo Ludens, Hermes-Mercury, Prometheus, and the Serpent….
I first became aware of the Trickster when at some point in my 30’s, when in order to survive, I was forced to wear a Grey Suit. See, I had been a free spirited musician until that point, and “Suits” represented the Recording Industry and Accountants, who were everything we (the chosen ones) despised. So in the aftermath of the collapse of my artistic career, and with it my notions of God – so earnestly had I taken my vocation – I was joining THE ENEMY. I was succumbing to necessity, I was abandoning the “Keeping of the Faith” (To quote the Wayne’s World rendition of Jim Morrison, who was spared all this by his in/glorious early demise).
So I headed off tie and all, into the City of London, to sell my time to the world’s largest bank. And I thought to myself, “This is kind of cool”, because in my heart I knew I was not in fact becoming one of the enemy, but rather to quote Bruce Cockburn “Dancing in the Dragons Jaws”, more like a spy. I might have appeared to be another hi finance techno-drone, but I realise now, I was in fact an incarnation of the trickster.
To quote mythographer Joseph Campbell, in “The Masks of God Vol 1”:
“This ambiguous, curiously fascinating figure of the trickster appears to have been the chief mythological character of the paleolithic world of story. A fool, and a cruel, lecherous cheat, and epitome of the principle of disorder, he is nevertheless the culture-bringer also. And he appeared under many guises : Coyote, Great Hare, Br’er Rabbit, Raven, Jay, Reynard the Fox, but also, on a more serious plane, he appears as the devil.”
At that time I started having dreams. In one I was (to quote my notes directly) “being sucked down with all manner of dogs”, into a vortex of mud or sand, heading for the funnel and ultimately, the darkness of the earth. Towards the bottom, I saw a figure standing watch over the pit, with a Jackals head and a human body. I awoke just as I took in what I thought was my last breath.
In another dream, a crazed knife wielding gypsy near a pool with an incomplete flyover in its midst, threw a knife at my wife, and missed; I reacted with rage at this wild, act of irresponsibility.
With the help of some Jungian “divination”, I found out that the Jackal Headed figure was Anubis, Egyptian guardian of the dead. And via the gypsy, I came to appreciate the presence in my mythical life of Hermes, a primary source of this ethos in Greek mythology.
Now Hermes is pretty multi-faceted. He is at once guardian of boundary stones (herms), communication, sport, music and ultimately a pretty shifty figure. From him we get hermeneutics (translation of ideas across cultural boundaries) and in his Roman guise Mercury, the postal insignia with the winged helmet.
The interesting thing for me was, having grown into adulthood characterised by charismatic evangelical piety and its worldview, how this trickster found a place alongside some very powerful “medicine”: the Evil Snake, and the overconfident, unambiguous “clarion call of truth”.
To be less obscure, I am referring to these 2 characteristics of my early belief system:
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Monotheism’s dualism: christian theological orthodoxy sees Satan as the serpent in the garden having caused mans original sin via Eve’s temptation. The Jewish view of Satan is slightly less polarised, seeing him as an advocate / adversary to the law, rather than a semi-omnipotent being of dread and the father of all evil. And the third member of monotheism – Islam, doesn’t seem that different to the christian view regarding dualising good and evil.
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Naive Sincerity: The importance of being earnest – values such as “truth” and “integrity” were deemed absolutely crucial. In this Newtonian world – a predictable machine presided over by a God of Order – ambiguity was eschewed and all sorts of logical hoops were jumped though to maintain “consistency”. This is not so much a problem with christianity per se as with Greek reductionist thinking. Is our Greek inheritance a good thing? – thoroughly dualistic, yet richly imbued in myth; and a tricky question.
So I rejoice at the presence of the Trickster in a barren land of closed thought, for quite apart from being the bringer of death and destruction, he in fact is a catalyst for life and salvation. I now look at Jesus as embodying (amongst all things divine) this trickster, as well.
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“Be as wise/sly as serpents and as harmless a doves”. In this metaphor, the serpent is not an outlaw, but something to be actively embraced.
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“Don’t let your left hand know what your right hand is doing”: Conjurers of the world, unite in Christ!
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“Become as little children”: engage in play, awe, and the space opened up by ambiguity.
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“I will make myself more foolish in their eyes” – David, shamanic worshipper and “apple of G-d’s eye”.
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“I become a fool for Christ” – here Paul elevates the Jester role, acknowledging that it is not the highly evolved adult, but those without guile, who will experience G-d.
You may be saying, this is madness; this is exactly what we have come away from – deception and falsehood. I can sympathise with your confusion, because I share it. I too have looked askance at anyone delving into such shadowy arts.
But I am coming to see the Trickster no so much as a threat, but a gift. In fact, I see him as quite central to the core christian truth of incarnation, as well as central to all creativity.
As I now see it, the very call to incarnation involves the trickster. Incarnation can be described as “being in the world but not of it”. All people having undertaken a spiritual path, especially one involving reorienting oneself in the world, will know the difficulty of staying grounded and yet striving for transcendence. All manner of things get in the way, rationalism, craving, habit, apathy, materialism, fear. To live “in the spirit” can be a very difficult task.
The tendency in the search for “holiness” or “purity” is usually to separate our world into the secular/worldly/carnal and the sacred/heavenly/spiritual. We have immense difficulty being “in the world” when we refocus our inner life on the transcendent beyond.
I suggest that this is where the trickster comes to assist us. His realm includes ambiguity, irony, and play, incompleteness and chaos, holding in tension and suspending belief, generosity and cruelty, imagination, flexibility and cunning shifting of shape, the boundaries between life and death, and making connections where they are not supposed to be.
Clearly the trickster has the potential to destroy. Engaging him is to take a risk. It is the liminal area between right and wrong that is his playground. We should never say as an excuse “The trickster made me do it.” It is up to us to learn what we can from him but never to naively give him our heart.
There are totemic trickster figures in many of the more animistic cultures; additionally clowns and jesters, comedians and conjurers, and most if not all practitioners of art play this subversive role in society. Not to forget negotiators and peacemakers; even politicians, theirs being the “art of the possible”, despite their common failings.
Joseph Campbell notes
“They represent, from the point of view of the masters of decorum, the chaos principle, the principle of disorder, the force careless of taboos and shattering bounds. But from the point of view of the deeper realms of being from which the energies of life ultimately spring, this principle is not to be despised.”
And maverick Bruce Cockburn, again, in his rambunctious “Maybe The Poet” observes
Male female slave or free
Peaceful or disorderly
Maybe you and he will not agree
But you need him to show you new ways to seeDon’t let the system fool you
All it wants to do is rule you
Pay attention to the poet
You need him and you know it
What I am concerned with here is the potential of the poet, the prophet, and the shaman, to usher in holiness. To “shatter bounds” and bring us new ways to see.
As we focus on the task of apprehending or worshiping the Divine, wrestle with the complexities or truth, or simply seek to live life more fully, we should imaginatively and openly engage the services of this mythical “holy trickster”.
Source: soundandsilence.wordpress.com
Some comments from the bottom of the article:
liquidlight said March 12, 2008 @ 1:03 pm
Nic, i really enjoyed this post. from the “trickster made me do it” title of a future classic something, to the concept of re-embracing the snake, to the dangerous twilight of trickster-space…
i found it interesting that you found elements of the trickster in both Christ and satan. there exists a strange and taboo area of mystery, namely the commonality between Christ and His supposed nemesis, DIE DUIWEL!. they are both described as the star of the morning/morning star and share the same numerological value in the kabbalistic system – which in their minds, suggests a deep connection.
i have my doubts that satan and lucifer are the same beings but that’s another story.
a wonderfully ranging & useful post.
Roger Saner said March 17, 2008 @ 4:23 pm
Wow – if there was a prize for brilliant blog entries, I’d give it to you for this one!
Andrew said March 12, 2008 @ 4:44 pm
I have never delved into the concept and myth of the trickster and must thank you for creating a fascination for this demigod charlatan. I will be dwelling on this and respond shortly. My mind is going in the direction of ” in a Fool’s Paradise, the trickster/ jester would be king” and the symbiotic relationship between Trickster and Trickstee.
Thanks for enriching my Imagination.
Anthony Paton said June 27, 2008 @ 11:44 am
Hi Nic and Friends
Tying this one into an earlier subject- shamanism and KhoiSan culture, I thought it might be worth mentioning that in KhoiSan belief systems you are unable to access the Supreme Deity except through /Kaggen (The Trickster). /Kaggen is capable of assuming many forms, but one of the most widely transmitted was the form of Mantis. This resulted in the interpretation by whites (particularly Afrikaaners) that the ‘bushmen’ and ‘hotentots’ worshipped the Praying Mantis- and hence the poppular Afrikaans name for a Praying Mantis of ‘hotnotsgod’. I have a very ambivalent realtionship to this word as it is both very derisive and very witty.
With deeper understanding of the sources (such as Bleek, Orpen etc.) one can surmise that /Kaggen could in fact have the form of any creature, and not only a Mantis. In itself, this explains how the KhoiSan belief system is both animistic and pantheistic. These are two of the “theisms” with which I have the highest sympathy and identification, and may partially explain the attraction for me of KhoiSan history and culture. /Kaggen as the intercessor and proxy for the Ultimate Deity has messianic or “Christ-like” qualities, but as a deceiver has “Satan-like” qualities. As I understand it though, the purpose of the deception is to create an awareness that as any material being may be a proxy for the sacred and divine, that all sentient beings by extension should wisely be treated as though they are sacred and divine. It was thus that the eland was both the highest food source and the supreme spiritual creature.
Christians may find it bizarre that a group of people should desire to symbolically consume the body of God, but that of course is exactly what the act of communion represents as well.
Deborah,
I am sure Nic will be grateful for the free press. It is such a blessing to be able to read some deep theological reflection on a website that to my wandering eyes thus far has looked more like barren wilderness.
Nic – fabulous post. Indeed, the trickster motif throughout Scripture is one to both haunt us, inspire us, provoke us and propel us deeper to our Savior. It is no surprise, perhaps, that the father of Israel, Jacob, was famously known as “The Trickster.” I would take it as a compliment that you have been labeled as such by the author of this blog.
grace and peace.
Nic in the article says: I have no doubt that you will rejoice at the presence of the Trickster in a barren land of closed thought, for quite apart from being the bringer of death and destruction, he in fact is a catalyst for life and salvation. I now look at Jesus as embodying (amongst all things divine) this trickster, as well.
So we have Jesus as embodying (amongst all things divine) Satan?!?!?!?!?!?!?!
But then yes as per New Age belief this is true. For the the False Christ is just that. A Satanic version of Christ.
And you actually have the audacity to come here and tell me I am not a Christian?
You and your friends are nothing but; Tricksters, Liars and Wolves in Sheeps Clothing
Again, Deborah, you are showing a lack of theological reflection and an inability to read closely. You are seeing only what you wish to see. Satan, Deborah, is not divine. So no, Jesus is not the embodiment of the satan. That is just nonsense.
Where did Nic tell you you are “not a Christian”? Please point me to the quote.
Thanks.
Oh for crying out loud….you know what Chad? You people are so FULL of NEW AGE teaching that you can’t even tell the difference between what’s Christian and what’s not.
I see no love for JESUS CHRIST in any of this rubbish Nic has written but you all give him a standing ovation.
And stop insulting my intelligence. I know exactly what’s going on here… You are the ones caught up in New Age occult teaching, mysticism, shamanism, Gnosticism, and all sorts of other teaching and then you want to actually still try prove you are correct by lambasting me for standing up for born again Christians…
Have you thought of leaving the Methodist church and joining a New Age Faire? I bet you will get tons of souls ‘saved’ there.
Deborah,
What is NEW AGE or gnostic about anything Nic wrote? I am getting the sense from you that you love to make grand brush strokes and generalizations, throwing labels around to such a high degree that they lose all meaning. If you want to be taken seriously than you need to at least detail which parts YOU think are new age-ish and then allow Nic or others to explain how they interpret such-and-such to be true to the Gospel of Christ.
Of course, such discourse takes time and an investment of self to the pursuit of truth and honest dialog. It also requires respect, something I have seen very little from you towards anyone, myself included. It seems that you are more satisfied with just labeling people and throwing as many darts as you can, hoping something sticks. You are welcome to that game. It just seems rather immature and a great waste of time. Surely all your time and energy and skills could be put to better use bring healing and reconciliation to a world in need of Good News?
By the way, I am still waiting for that quote from Nic where he said you are “not a Christian.”
Thanks.
Chad
To Deborah
I see you have helped yourself wholesale to my post. That’s fine – I believe in freedom of information. But it’s neither very imaginative nor polite.
To All
To fundamentalists, to those who struggle with emergence, to those who struggle with labels, to those who struggle with God, and to those who struggle with Satan.
I know there are a lot of people reading this. I am the originator of the Trickster post, and I invite you to discuss your reservations or any other thing with us or more appropriately, with me [deleted] I am humoring Deborah in allowing this conversation to commence in the sanctity of her “lair”.
Regardless of what you think of me at this point, I can imagine and understand any reservation you might have describing our Loving God as a “trickster”. I have been an evangelical, I am a recovering fundamentalist, so I know how you think. I do not demand that you change either, but that we can enter the respectful space of interfaith dialog : evangelical-emergent in this case. God uses us all where we are at, if we are open to love.
Above all things, I love you and my rhetoric is not against your faith. You are my brothers and sisters in Christ, and I look forward with great anticipation our Oneness in God at the end of time.
However we are now “in the world” and confusion seems to be the way of this world. But confusion is also inherent in God; Paul describes this as “seeing though a glass darkly”, and mystics and belivers through the ages have always honoured the difficulty of “unkowing” a God who claims to have revealed Himself.
The esssential thing I want to say here is the primary misunderstanding inherant in my post is confusing “ambiguity” and “deception”. There is a thin line between these things, something fundamentalism does not tend to appreciate.
When I describe God as a Trickster, I am talking about a God who dwells in darkness as well as light, I am talking about Jesus who says both “He who is not for me is against me” and “He who is not against me is for me.” That is one of the best illustrations of the Trickster I might point to.
I am not in anyway whatsoever calling God a liar or a deciever. God is True. But I have come to know this truth as being deeply paradoxical. In fact, truth that is one sided, unidimensional, black or white, is in my experience, a very dim apprehension of the riches which await us in Christ. Futher, such arrogent assertions about the truth show little of the humilty of our limitation as humans, or awareness of our fallen nature.
In closing let me thank Chad for asking about this misrepresentation, and offer Deborah a correction:
You say, “And you actually have the audacity to come here and tell me I am not a Christian?”
Deboarah – it would appear that the first rule of truth is to stop making stuff up that contradicts the facts. You know full well I have included you as a Christian sister in all my addresses. What I told you was that I did not see great evidence of Love in your dealings with me and others. We all fall short of the Glory of God, I am picking on you not out of spite, but because you force the argument and create antagonism to such an extent that we have to get straight to the heart of it.
I hope all things, and I hope that you begin to learn to love and be loved, more than is now apparent. And I hope the same for myself.
Nic
“Deboarah – it would appear that the first rule of truth is to stop making stuff up that contradicts the facts. You know full well I have included you as a Christian sister in all my addresses”
What I said to Chad was in reference to the ambiguity of everything you all have said to me since you all started to come onto my blog. Chad called be a ‘clever athiest’…nextminute I am your sister, next minute my father is the father of lies as per the verse Iggy mentioned in one of his posts. Then I am part of your family, then I am evil, then I am nice, then I am not, then I’m this, then I’m that….
Fortunately for me I have stuck to the truth from minute one and told you and all those who agree with your shamanistic/mystic aka Occult beliefs that I AM NOT part of your family/body/church/group/clan/emergent/one world religion/half truth/socialistic/all faiths lead to one god/panentheistic/pentheistist/pagan/mythology/gods and goddess/idol woroship/divination abominations. Which means (for those who are hard of hearing) that under NO UNCERTAIN TERMS will I ever be a sister/brother/member/friend/bretheren/ or anything else you can think of too any of you.
Right now that we got that out of the way…hopefully once and for all. I can carry on with some very important articles to expose this horrendus NEW religious movement further.
Cherio!
I would invite any who read this to seriously consider Nic’s response above and then Deborah’s and ask yourself: Which response sounds more like Jesus?
Who sounds more like they are following in the way of the servant to all and the one who IS love?
Deborah, who claims she will never be any of our friends or considers us brothers or sisters is essentially saying to Jesus, “I don’t care about your commands.” Deborah, you are saying to Paul, “I do not care that you call us to be minsters of reconciliation.” Jesus said that those who love only those who are like them are no better off than the pagans.
Deborah, may you come to know the richness of grace like never before.
*Yawn*
Chad
You said: Deborah, who claims she will never be any of our friends or considers us brothers or sisters is essentially saying to Jesus, “I don’t care about your commands.” Deborah, you are saying to Paul, “I do not care that you call us to be minsters of reconciliation.” Jesus said that those who love only those who are like them are no better off than the pagans.
Oh there we go….twist, twist, twist……*bursts out into song* Come on twist again like you did in this comment, Yea, twist again like you did the last, Do you remember when you were ever truthful?’ Yea, just twist again, twistin’ time is here.
I am now going to roll up my comment with the title “minsters of reconciliation” onto some parchment, roll up that parchment, and slap you over the head with it.
HERE WE GO : slap-slap-slap-over the head!
REPEAT #3:
2 Corinthians 5:11-21
11 Since, then, we know what it is to fear the Lord, we try to persuade men. What we are is plain to God, and I hope it is also plain to your conscience.
12 We are not trying to commend ourselves to you again, but are giving you an opportunity to take pride in us, so that you can answer those who take pride in what is seen rather than in what is in the heart.
13 If we are out of our mind, it is for the sake of God; if we are in our right mind, it is for you.
14 For Christ’s love compels us, because we are convinced that one died for all, and therefore all died.
15 And he died for all, that those who live should no longer live for themselves but for him who died for them and was raised again.
16 So from now on we regard no one from a worldly point of view. Though we once regarded Christ in this way, we do so no longer.
17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has gone, the new has come!
18 All this is from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation:
19 that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting men’s sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation.
20 We are therefore Christ’s ambassadors, as though God were making his appeal through us. We implore you on Christ’s behalf: Be reconciled to God.
21 God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.
Chad
We are called to preach the Word of God as we try desperately to persuade men, but their consciences are following after wickedness. We don’t commend ourselves for our gain, but for our Lord Jesus Christ who saved. Jesus’ love compels us to preach the gospel with all long suffering, because we are convinced that one died for all, and therefore all died. That the people of this world are dead if they do no not believe in Jesus Christ who died that the people of this world may be saved. But many do not want to know Him. They choose another ‘Christ’ instead. When one is born again we no longer view anything from a worldly perspective, because we are now a new creation a child of God and no longer of this world, our old nature of sin is gone as we no longer want to partake of this world’s wickedness and false doctrines, doctrine of demons.
Preaching the gospel of Jesus Christ, the truth that people may be saved though God’s Holy Spirit, All this because God reconciled us to Him through His Son Jesus Christ who we believed in, that he did for our sin, washed clean by His Blood that we may be presented before God spotless. We come before Jesus Christ and earnestly repented of the sin in our lives, that we may be saved. We preach the Gospel of Jesus Christ (salvation), the gospel of Reconciliation (salvation) that people may come to accept Jesus Christ and be reconciled to God.
Unless one believes and accepts Jesus Christ into their lives, there will never be reconciliation between themselves and God, because they deny His Son. They will remain in their wickedness and sin which is death. But those who come to believe the truth stated in the Word of God and nothing but the Truth as stated in the Word, who repent of their sin and are born again are reconciled to God and therefore now go out and preach the Gospel of Jesus Christ so that other souls may be saved.
When we are genuine Christians we now become God’s Ambassadors and we proclaim the Gospel loud and clear to all who want to hear. We warn, exhort, we teach, we rebuke.
There is no such thing as reconciliation between people who follow after false teaching and server another ‘Christ’ and those who obey the Word of God completely and serve Jesus Christ the Son of God. We preach the Gospel of Jesus Christ to everyone. BUT few will accept His message for Jesus Christ who was born sinless, walked this earth sinless and died sinless and was resurrected sinless who sits as the right hand of the Father, King of Kings, Lord of Lords is HATED by this sinful wicked world.
This is the verse Iggy tried to desperately to back up his Emergent ideas. As you will see this goes nicely with the above, where Paul tells Timothy to stay away, run away, flee from men who preach another gospel to what Jesus Christ commanded.
1 Timothy 6:1, 3-5, 11-12, 20-21
1 All who are under the yoke of slavery should consider their masters worthy of full respect, so that God’s name and our teaching may not be slandered.
3 If anyone teaches false doctrines and does not agree to the sound instruction of our Lord Jesus Christ and to godly teaching,
4 he is conceited and understands nothing. He has an unhealthy interest in controversies and quarrels about words that result in envy, strife, malicious talk, evil suspicions
5 and constant friction between men of corrupt mind, who have been robbed of the truth and who think that godliness is a means to financial gain.
11 But you, man of God, flee from all this, and pursue righteousness, godliness, faith, love, endurance and gentleness.
12 Fight the good fight of the faith. Take hold of the eternal life to which you were called when you made your good confession in the presence of many witnesses.
20 Timothy, guard what has been entrusted to your care. Turn away from godless chatter and the opposing ideas of what is falsely called knowledge,
21 which some have professed and in so doing have wandered from the faith. Grace be with you.
A letter from Paul to Timothy. Timothy was having a bit of a problem with people who refused to listen to the Gospel of Jesus; who want to create their treasures on earth. In doing so, these people were slandering the name of God.
Paul then tells Timothy that if anyone teaches false doctrine and does not agree with sound doctrine and Godly teaching as Jesus Christ COMMANDED; then these people are conceited and understand nothing – this means the Word of God, hence they use little verses here and there to mislead people with their evil plans.
Paul says that corrupt men, who refuse the sound instruction of Jesus Christ to preach genuine teaching, are only interested in controversies and quarrels about ‘words’ that result in envy, strife, malicious talk, evil suspicions and constant friction. Paul says that these men who refuse sound teaching have NOT Truth in them and think that godliness is when you try to produce good works on earth (which means nothing). They think that trying to create ‘heaven on earth’ makes them special and godly.
Paul then tells Timothy to run away from these people, FLEE THEM, and pursue those who are righteous, who have godliness, faith, love, endurance and gentleness for they are truly born again of the Holy Spirit. Paul tells Timothy however to NOT STOP FIGHTING the GOOD FIGHT (good fruit) of DEFENGING the FAITH (the true gospel of Jesus Christ – good news).
Timothy is instructed to hold fast onto Jesus’ promise of eternal life when Timothy made a public confession that by accepting Jesus as his Saviour he will hold fast onto the truth and proclaim it at ALL COSTS. But at the same time, STAY AWAY from wicked people who refuse to hear the Truth. (Eternal life is not on this earth, but in Heaven, and this earth WILL not become HEAVEN. Emergent’s along with every other movement/religion out there are trying to create God’s Kingdom on earth (man’s kingdom) which is useless and ungodly)
Paul tells Timothy to take care of the instructions that Jesus Christ entrusted to him. To not find himself ensnared in godless chatter with people who OPPOSE the Word of God. Who come along with NEW knowledge that is completely false (like good fruit that is actually bad fruit). Timothy (and ALL genuine Christians today) are NOT to try build relationships with those who are no longer following the gospel of Jesus Christ, but have wondered off the track and now follow new teaching/false teaching, which sounds biblical, but it not.
****
The Word of God tells born again Christians to not engage in godless chatter with people who refuse to accept the truth. In fact we are not to engage with people who oppose the Word of God in any way. This includes those who quote verses from the bible as they try desperately to back up their NEW AGE, NEW Emergent knowledge and accept ideas from all religions around the world as well as being compatible to the Bible –which GOD also COMMANDS you NOT to do- because if you do, you deny Him. By agreeing with other faiths as being acceptable you agree that other gods are also acceptable. And God clearly states that you shall worship no other god’s but HIM.
Jesus spoke that in the last says there will be a great apostasy (a falling away from the Gospel of Jesus Christ) to another gospel, another Christ. This ‘imitation’ Christ is the Man Of Lawlessness.
“Jesus says, when He returns shall He even find faith left on this earth” That’s Jesus’ words. Not mine. You better make sure you are in the minority, which is what the TRUTH, the Gospel of Jesus Christ is being reduced too through Emergent ideals and the creation of a One World Religion.
Now Chad, go be a minister of reconcilliation to Nic. He really needs it as he is “delving into such shadowy arts”
Like I said, you do not think yourself as one who is a reconciler but a divider.
I am trying to picture Jesus saying, “I will not eat with that person, I will not like that person, I will not associate with that person.” Unbelievable.
I’m new to blogging and I’m new to ’emergent’. Nic doesn’t need my defense, but as a friend of over twenty years, I respect his mind, his courage to question and his journey of faith. I have received his encouragement, his generosity, his hospitality and his kindness. I see no ‘trickster’ dressed in sheep’s clothing.
I could feel offended by your comments about ‘them’, but choose not to as I navigate my faith and sincerely figure out how to be the hands, feet and fragrance of Christ in a hurting world.
Kimberley
Kimberely
What’s you point? Knowing someone for 100 years does not make what they speak the truth.
Chad
You are the divider Chad. Because you preach another gospel. You agree with Nic that Jesus and the Tricksters (amongst other divinites) are basically one and the same. That Jesus and Satan are compatible. You agree with Nic that delving into shadowy arts is ok. Move on Chad, your welcome here has seriously worn out. But thanks for exposing yourself.
Chad
Try picture this verse:
1 Corinthians 5:9-13
9 I wrote you in my letter not to associate with immoral people;
10 I did not at all mean with the immoral people of this world, or with the covetous and swindlers, or with idolaters, for then you would have to go out of the world.
11 But actually, I wrote to you not to associate with any so-called brother if he is an immoral person, or covetous, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or a swindler–not even to eat with such a one.
12 For what have I to do with judging outsiders? Do you not judge those who are within the church?
13 But those who are outside, God judges. REMOVE THE WICKED MAN FROM AMONG YOURSELVES.
So the Corinthians wrote a letter to Paul which was a reply to a letter that he wrote to them telling them not to associate with people who were immiral, covetous, worshiper of Idols, revilers, drunkards or swindelers. The Corinthains replied, and were confused and basically said to paul, “are you saying we can’t associate with these people”? Paul replies angrily and is asking them how they could possibly mis-interpret what he said and he repeats to them. DO NOT associate with a so-called brother if he is an immoral person, or covetous, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or a swindler–not even to eat with such a one.
Paul rebukes them and says REMOVE THE WICKED MAN FROM AMONG YOURSELVES
Notice the SO-CALLED Brother – the one who says they are Christians but refuse the truth and follow after other gods instead – like Emergents.
These people Paul is referring to are people who have heard the truth and then refuse the truth and try wangle their way amongst the body of Christ to cause DIVISION.
Where exactly did you study to be a Pastor Chad?? Oh boy…
Thanks Arise!
Of course you would delete my comments, Deborah. They expose you for who you really are. Especially the last, where I ask you who would really want to get to know you if they were lost given your insults, lack of love and humility and degrading of anyone who disagrees with you? How are you like Jesus?
By deleting my comments you only prove to me that I was right about you.
Nic Paton wrote:
“… What I am concerned with here is the potential of the poet, the prophet, and the shaman, to usher in holiness. To “shatter bounds” and bring us new ways to see…”
OMYGOD. What cliched, ‘Power of Myth’ garbage from twenty years ago.
Hey, Nic.
Uh… have you really done your research on Jung and Campbell?
You know that Jung, in his autobiography, MEMORIES DREAMS AND REFLECTIONS tells of how he was haunted by demonic spirits who would “trickster like” ring his doorbell at random and annoying hours of the day and night?
Yeah. Also Nic, you know that Jung was “haunted’ by these spirits to the point that he did automatic handwriting?
Do your homework, boy.
Then let’s deal with Joe Campbell, who edited for Viking in the 40’s THE PORTABLE JUNG and then , of course, went on to write the idiotic classic “THE HERO WITH A THOUSAND FACES” that inspired George Lucas to make a few good movies but also some serious clunkers like Howard the Duck and another Tom Cruise movie that I can’t recall the name of… so much for using Jungian/Campbellian mythomush to make ‘hit movies”.
Campbell tried to put forth his doubleminded idea that there were “spirits in the world’ that are “just projections” of “human need for them to exist” and at the same time, could not answer the question as to whether or not they did actually exist in reality.
C S Lewis foretells of this psychotic doublemindedness in one of his books — how people will come to believe in a “force” that is impersonal and somehow not supernatural but a spiritual force nonetheless.
In other words, a way to blind ones eyes to the reality of Satan and the fact Satan has a personality and a personal desire against every human being on earth to destroy them.
Nic, you need to read Jeffery Maason’s critiques of Campbell and therefore Jung.
JUng was such a foolish idiot blinded by his “theories” that during Nazi Germany, he was on the Nazi payroll as a shrink and called Hitler a “demi God” while he put nervous Nazi pilots on the couch. In other words, for all of Jung’s so called “genius”, he was a wimpy, limp wristed, demonized fool who did not warn or alert people to the horrors of Nazism, but instead was entranced by its mythological appeal to the “collective unconscious”.
All if this Jung Campbell stuff is very old hat and any creative person, especially a Christian, needs to do their homework on it. It’s complete dog excrement.
PLUS, both these men were AntiSemites. Maason calls Campbell out on this a lot.
Nic, do your homework buddy. Satan is under God’s thumb. He is not a “creator” or a “necessary part of creation” he is creation’s CURSE.
You need Nic, to remember that the only powerful thing on the earth is God’s Word incarnated in His Son who is the Word made flesh…
and then you need to remember that Jung nor Campbell had a ready answer for the problem of mankind that surpasses the generations: SIN.
Campbell’s theories were flawed ultimately because he basically states that “God exists because man has a need for Him to exist.” What dog excrement, again. His flawed theory of the “Hero With a Thousand Faces” is that he twists the historical evidence that Jesus Christ actually did exist and there is legal and evidentiary proof. He fails to realize that if Jesus is who He said He was, then all primitive and pagan cultures have a “counterfeit” Jesus in their pantheon of demonic “gods”… thus the Hero with a Thousand Faces should be retitled:
THE ONE TRUE HERO HAS A THOUSAND COUNTERFEITS…
End of story. Do your homework little Nic, you really don’t have a clue what you are talking about… IF you are a Christian, you need to be concerned about “Carrying the Cross” not as Campbell instructs to “Follow Your Bliss”
Study to show yourself approved unto a Holy God, Nic, so you may rightly divide the Word…
I agree with Discerning the World. This article by this Nic guy is shocking and their attack against the author of this blog is shocking. How can these people call themselves Christian and agree that Satan and Jesus Christ are incarnations of each other.
I am so shocked and this is going on in South Africa! I thought we were a God fearing country. This message that is being taught is Satanic.
Those who know Jesus Christ know the Father and those who know the Father know Jesus Christ. If these people can call the author of this blog a Christian and then later call the author of the Devil then it is glaringly obvious that these people have no idea who Jesus Christ or the Father is.
Keep going Discerning the World! Never stop exposing false teaching. You are a blessing to all those searching for the truth that will read your blog and realize what is happening around them and come before Jesus Christ and repent of their sin before it’s too late.
No Chad The Word of God has exposed you.
Deleting comments which is rife amongst New Age, Emergent websites is not proof if one speaks the truth or not. You have lied so much here it’s not even funny anymore. Besides, I told you about rules in the About My blog section 🙂
I repeat:
1 Corinthians 5:9-13
9 I wrote you in my letter not to associate with immoral people;
10 I did not at all mean with the immoral people of this world, or with the covetous and swindlers, or with idolaters, for then you would have to go out of the world.
11 But actually, I wrote to you not to associate with any so-called brother if he is an immoral person, or covetous, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or a swindler–not even to eat with such a one.
12 For what have I to do with judging outsiders? Do you not judge those who are within the church?
13 But those who are outside, God judges. REMOVE THE WICKED MAN FROM AMONG YOURSELVES.
So the Corinthians wrote a letter to Paul which was a reply to a letter that he wrote to them telling them not to associate with people who were immoral, covetous, worshiper of idols, revilers, drunkards or swindelers. The Corinthains replied, and were confused and basically said to paul, “are you saying we can’t associate with these people”? Paul replies angrily and is asking them how they could possibly mis-interpret what he said and he repeats to them: DO NOT associate with a so-called brother if he is an immoral person, or covetous, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or a swindler–not even to eat with such a one.
Paul rebukes them and says REMOVE THE WICKED MAN FROM AMONG YOURSELVES
Notice the SO-CALLED Brother – the one who says they are Christians but refuse the truth and follow after other gods instead – like Emergents.
These people Paul is referring to are people who have heard the truth and then refuse the truth and try wangle their way amongst the body of Christ to cause DIVISION.
Chad< DTW has the right to delete comments. I have not done a thorough reading through of her entire site, but her comments are usually addressed to Christians.
And DTW is completely correct to cite Corinthians as she does.
Basically this scripture is saying that Christians have a right, indeed, a duty, to correct, rebuke, exhort, and judge other Christians or people who claim to be Christians.
BUT as Paul writes there, 'of those on the outside, God is the judge… of those on the inside of the church, YOU are the judges."
DTW is saying that she has a right to judge any Emergent freak doctrines that add to the Gospel or preach another Gospel.
It's better to have someone point out your problems with the Word now, than to face a Holy God when your time at the Throne comes up.
Paul also wrote that "if I or an angel from heaven preach to you any other Gospel, let them be accursed.."
And "Every Word of the Lord is pure, let no man add to HIs Words"…
God is very specific with how we are to treat the Word made Flesh, the Bible.
You add to it, you are cursed.
You twist it, you are in danger.
You preach another Gospel that is a counterfeit, you are a False teacher and damned.
Teachers have a higher level of accountability with the Lord, too.
If the unsaved happen upon this website, I would be very impressed if they even could engage DTW enough for her to be "mean" to them…
I doubt it she would be "mean" to them anyway. SHe knows that "those on the outside of the church, God is the judge" and we have NO RIGHT to judge the unsaved for their sin. They do not have the power of the Holy Spirit to overcome their sin as we as Christians do.
Chad, quit whining and drop the stupid Emergent New Age demonism. God is not pleased.
Arise: Now that’s a comment and a half.
They do not understand that speaking the truth is in love and NOTE HATE. They think that NOT AGREEING WITH THEM means we hate them. But this is a complete lie, as is everything that opposes the Word of God.
They think by questioning their words we are juding them. I leave what they do in their lives for God to judge, but their words, now that’s another story – in fact their words they speak judge themselves for what they say goes against the Bible and preach another gospel. And it’s easy to tell especially when you correct their horrible twisted use of scripture – they ignore it and run away – use diversion tactics instead to try focus ones attention off what the Bible has to day on the matter.
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Arise,
No one is “whining” here. If you, like Deborah, will not engage the actual issues what more can I say? Both of you seem to just toss out generalizations and untruths about myself and others. None of you have once engaged any of the things you claim are anti-Christ. It’s all really absurd.
Frankly, this line from you says it all: God is very specific with how we are to treat the Word made Flesh, the Bible.
Friend, the Bible is not “the Word made flesh.” The Bible is not nor should it ever be made into an idol. The Bible points us to THE Word, which is Jesus.
You cannot interpret scripture apart from Christ. And Deborah and yourself, in my opinion, are sorely lacking in the virtues of Christ. You have the “letter of the law” which kills and yet miss the “spirit.”
I’d be happy to discuss the specifics of what you feel is our “twisting and lying” if you so wish. But please refrain from making grand pronouncements about my salvation or that of other Christians.
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Chad
You said: And Deborah and yourself, in my opinion, are sorely lacking in the virtues of Christ.
You are the one who thinks Nic’s divination, incarnaton, shadowy dark arts are acceptable and cool. Did you really study to be a Pastor? If so did they leave out this verse from your studies or did you just skip over it:
Deuteronomy 18:10-12
10 “There shall not be found among you anyone who makes his son or his daughter pass through the fire, one who uses divination, one who practices witchcraft, or one who interprets omens, or a sorcerer, 11 or one who casts a spell, or a medium, or a spiritist, or one who calls up the dead.” 12 For whoever does these things is detestable to the LORD; and because of these detestable things the LORD your God will drive them out before you.
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Deborah, dear, why are you bothering? Do you see how much time you’ve wasted already on folks who are firm in the murk upon which they stand (and will surely sink if they do not turn around)?
Even GOD after a while, lets the unrepentant go (Romans 1:18-32). Stop working your nerves and wasting your time.
Please.
GOD bless.
No one could have said it better. Thanks for kicking me back into first gear.
Hey Deborah, Nic and readers here.
We all know that John 3:16 says that whoever believes in Jesus will not perish but have eternal life.
A Christian is someone who believes IN JESUS, even though they might believe some wrong things about the Bible or Scriptures.
My point is that, whether you like it or not, both Nic and and you, Deborah, believe in Jesus and you both have no choice but to love each other, as per Christ’s command. A Christian is not distinguished necessarily by WHAT they believe or HOW they talk, but whether or not they believe in Jesus. This is the bottom line. Entire generations lived under Catholic rule and didn’t know better, doing all sorts of things I’m sure you would deem heretical. Yet they were still Christians and still saved, because it’s about believing in Jesus (unless you want to relegate generations of people to hell because their theology was off, even though they most certainly believed in Jesus for their salvation!).
So, Deborah, you might want to polarize yourself from Emergents in such an extreme way but you are actually not following a Biblical principle from doing so. I, myself, am not emergent (nor fundamentalist) but if you believe in Jesus and I believe in Jesus I have to love you whether I like it or not. You need to do the same with Nic, and he to you.
More directly, I think your misunderstandings are around language and use of words. Nic likes metaphor and poetry. You’re taking his use of the word ‘trickster’ and projecting your own meaning of what that means over Nic’s post.
If I say the sentence “Go to the bank” that means a number of different things. For you, it might mean go to the local financial institution. For another, it may mean go to the river bank. This is just an example of how words carry different meanings, so in this case you need to first try and understand exactly what Nic means by Trickster before you assume he means Satan. Then you can discuss things more fruitfully and edifyingly.
For blessed are the peacemakers!