Emergent – Another Student at TUKS Theology Loses the Plot

freddies coffee bar - emergent

Emergent – Another Student at TUKS Theology Loses the Plot

Freddie honestly believes that born again Christians and the Emergent Christian are the same.  Freddie honestly believes therefore that when ‘Christians’ are questioning what they believe and preach they are actually attacking them.  They cry, “Why do Christians attack other Christians!!”

[The answer – because there are two types of Christians in this world;  genuine Christians who follow the true gospel of Jesus Christ, who will never deny, insult or mock Jesus Christ in any way.  And then we have the fake Christians who follow a False Christ and in doing so deny, insult and mock the true Jesus Christ the only Son of God.]

Below is a ‘contemplation‘ as Emergents would call it by Freddie, a student from the University of Pretoria.  I have added my comments in green.

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Reaching out to others: Deception in the Church?

[DTW comments in green]

I’m really typing here without plannig first, so I hope I make sense.

The last few days and weeks there has been lots of accusations against some of the pastors in the churches that I attend, as well as a renewed attack on some of the lecturers at the place I study.

[Why don’t you mention WHY you are being questioned?  We question your anti-gospel teaching Freddie and that you lead the people who attend your church astray with anti-Christ reaching!  How dare you!]

I also have some infrequent chats with people on my other blog site about the so called “emergent” movement. And they refer me to all kinds of places that attacks the above-mentioned groups of people. (And here South Africans has really come onto the worldmap, as targets of attack!!)

[Of course an Emergent blog would be the FIRST place you would go too for support.  Because you are a New Age Christian. The FIRST place you should have gone too was the Bible to see if the things you have been taught by your ohhh sooo smart lecturers at university is REALLY true….

Tell me something, if you had studied Mathematics as a subject and your Professor (the one you rely on for the TRUTH, the GENUINE answer) told you something different and at the end, the entire class, every student landed up with the same answer BUT the answer was INCORRECT.  So some students went to check only to find out that what the Professor told them was incorrect because what he taught did not line up with the basics of mathematics.  But you yourself never checked to see if your Professor actually followed the correct formula to find the RIGHT answer, you just took his word for it.  Then came your exams and you fail.  You can’t understand why.  Tell me, would you go and find out why you failed, or would you attempt to write the exam again and again and again using the same false teaching you received in class?] 

I laid awake last night thinking why this is happening. Why do Christians attack other Christians. One of my pastors, Ds. Stephan Joubert, always says, “Why is it that the only community or group that fights with each other are the Christians?”

[Christians are not attacking Christians.  Because New Age ‘Christians’ are NOT Christian. You are part of the Roman Catholic church.  That’s it Freddie, the answer to your question!  If you want to follow a theology that completely OPPOSES the Gospel of Jesus Christ then PLEASE change your title and stop calling yourself a Christian.  Hindu’s call themselves Hindu’s not Christians, Wiccan’s call themselves Wiccan and not Christian.  Why do they grasp the concept that because they oppose the teachings of Christianity that they are not Christian, but you just don’t get it!  Stephan Joubert is a Dr is his studies and he can’t grasp the concept either.]

We talk to people who are not Christian, showing love, but doesn’t show the same love to our own brothers and sisters!!

[When you show your love to non-Christians, do you sit with them and preach the Gospel of Jesus Christ, that Jesus is fully human and fully God, born of the Holy Spirit.  Sent by God to die for the sins of all mankind.  That Jesus Christ the ONLY Son of God that died the most gruesome death on a cross so that our sins will be washed away by His Blood.  But this gift is only for those who believe in Him and genuinely repent of their sin, then you shall become born again by God’s Holy Spirit.  This gift however is not available to those who refuse to believe in Jesus Christ the Son of God but instead follow false doctrines, a false Christ and doctrines of demons.  Do you say this to them Freddie, or does your love only mean you agree with them, that we are all on the same path, just different stages, but if they accept Christ everything will change for them. A transformation will take place and if everyone on earth just did this, what a wonderful place the world would be? Is that your version of the gospel?]

My real reason for writing this came to me this morning. The question I asked myself was this: How do you reach people?

[You don’t reach people Freddie, God is the one that does the speaking and reaching, BUT people reject His Son Jesus Christ, they prefer wickedness (disguised as love) over Him.  When Jesus said that we are to go out and preach the Gospel, He meant the TRUTH, not LIES.  I myself would be very upset if I found out that someone came to me and lied to me, I am sure you would be pretty angry if you found out that you had been lied to as well.]

John 15:1-5

(Jesus said,)  “I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit. You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you. Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me. I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing.”

[You will NEVER reach anyone without the TRUE vine Jesus Christ the Son of God  in your life.]

So, how do you reach people? By judging them? By ignoring them? Or do you love them? Do you accept them as people?

[Do we accept them as people?  What on earth does that mean?  Do you not understand that speaking the TRUTH (which sounds like judgement to you) IS  loving someone!  When your father reprimanded when you were younger did you honestly think he HATED you?  How can speaking the Truth to someone be called hatred?]

Is it possible for you to accept people as people?

[Well I accept that you are a ‘people’ lol.  This at the end of the day still does NOT mean you are following Jesus Christ the Son of God]

Is it possible to start loving people and still judge them? How is that possible?

[I answered this question above]

I know I have a dream of a Church (Body of Christ), who will go to the world with a message of love and acceptance.

[Believe it or not, of which there is a good chance you wont, that the Body of Christ is ONLY made up of truly born again Christians.  The Bible says that when Jesus Christ returns will he possibly find any faith left on earth?  Is the Bible contradicting you?  Or are you contradicting God?]

But does my love and acceptance means that I am going to discard my believes? No way! But I am not willing to force my believes on someone! That is a sure way to break a realtionship and end any chance for me (or even any future Christian) to try and reach a person!

[You said:  But does my love and acceptance means that I am going to discard my believes? No way! 

I sincerely hope you don’t believe this!  You are not willing to force you beliefs on people?  Well I got news for you Freddie, you don’t have too, because your beliefs are EXACTLY the same as every non-Christian throughout the world.   All religions lead to the same god as far as the New Light teaching in the world, the only difference is you need to convince people with ‘love’ that this god is Christ and that this Christ accepts EVERYONE as people – no need to repent of their sin, no, no, noooo.  Can’t say that ever!  We can’t in any way chase our future converts to the False Christ away, because this False Christ does not need people to repent of their sins.]

God so loved the WORLD… (not the saved) …that He sent His Son… Think about that the next time you stand ready to judge someone who might just do things different than you.

[Um, wrong!  Go read that book called the Bible that I hope you used when you studied to be a pastor.  This god you speak of is a fake Christ.  The False Christ which Jesus said would come to deceive the entire world (you are part of this world are you not, a ‘people’? Part of a global community all running after a False Christ.  Seeking an experience; something that will make them think they have heard the voice of God, because they lack this in their lives.  Not realising that what they hear is NOT from God]

[Please actually read these scriptures below Freddie, don’t just pass over them…]

John 14:6

(Jesus said) “I am the Way and the Truth and the Life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.”

[This means that if you DON’T accept Jesus Christ the Son of God as your saviour, repent of your sin, you have NO ACCESS to God.]

John 3:3

Jesus answered and said to him “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.”

Matthew 18:3

(Jesus said)  “Assuredly, I say to you, unless you are converted and become as little children, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven.”

Luke 13:3

(Jesus said)  “I tell you, no; but unless you repent you will all likewise perish.

John 6:53

Then Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life in you.”

John 8:12

Then Jesus spoke to them again, saying, “I am the light of the world. He who follows Me shall not walk in darkness, but have the light of life.”

John 8:18,19,23,24

I am One who bears witness of Myself, and the Father who sent Me bears witness of Me.”  Then they said to Him, “Where is Your Father?” Jesus answered, “You know neither Me nor My Father. If you had known Me, you would have known My Father also.” And He said to them, “You are from beneath; I am from above. You are of this world; I am not of this world. Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for if you do not believe that I am He, you will die in your sins”

John 10:7-11

Then Jesus said to them again, “Most assuredly, I say to you, I am the door of the sheep. All who ever came before Me are thieves and robbers, but the sheep did not hear them. I am the door. If anyone enters by Me, he will be saved, and will go in and out and find pasture. The thief does not come except to steal, and to kill, and to destroy. I have come that they may have life, and that they may have it more abundantly. I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd gives His life for the sheep.”

[He did not give His life for thieves/wolves who REFUSE to believe, BUT if they CHOOSE to believe and REPENT of their SIN, they will become Jesus’ sheep.]

Revelation 2:21-23

(Jesus said,) “And I gave her time to repent of her sexual immorality, and she did not repent. Indeed I will cast her into a sickbed, and those who commit adultery with her into great tribulation, unless they repent of their deeds. And I will kill her children with death. And all the churches shall know that I am He who searches the minds and hearts.”

[He searches you HEART Freddie.  If you speak blasphemies, then this is in your heart too.]

John 10:14

(Jesus said,) “I am the good shepherd; and I know My sheep, and am known by My own.”

[Does Jesus know who you are?  Are you one of his sheep?  Are you genuinely saved?  The verses above clearly shows that if you do not know Jesus Christ the Son of God, He does not know you!  And because He does not know you, you will die a spiritual death and be cast into a lake of fire that burns forever!

Did you know that hell was made for SATAN, the False Christ who has been deceiving the world since the beginning, but he is now working overtime.  Satan will not torture you in hell, He will burn with you.  Hell was made for all those who try put themselves on the same level as God, just as Satan did.  The greatest lie Satan can tell you with a fool proof plan is to get you to do exactly what he did to God.  He sought to be God.  The New Age Spirituality invites people to journey into themselves, to find the god within them.]

2 Thessalonians 2:3-4

3 Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction,

4 who opposes and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, displaying himself as being God.

2 Thessalonians 2:8-12

8 Then that lawless one will be revealed whom the Lord will slay with the breath of His mouth and bring to an end by the appearance of His coming;

9 that is, the one whose coming is in accord with the activity of Satan, with all power and signs and false wonders,

10 and with all the deception of wickedness for those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth so as to be saved.

11 For this reason God will send upon them a deluding influence so that they will believe what is false,

12 in order that they all may be judged who did not believe the truth, but took pleasure in wickedness.

[I pray you have not reached this point]

The word assuredly which Jesus uses so many times in the above verses means as per the dictionary means:   

  • Made certain; guaranteed!   

Conclusion:  Jesus NEVER lies.

Ds Stephan Joubert who you rely of for the truth is an Emergent teacher and supports other world leading Emergent teachers.

Here are some of the names of world leading Occult teachers: 

Richard Forster, Brian McLaren, Leonard Sweet, Rick Warren, Nelus Niemand, Rob Bell, Thomas Bandy, Bob Buford, Ken Blanchard, Martin Buber, Tony Campolo, Chuck Colson, Mark Driscoll, Peter Drucker, Eddie Gibbs, Tony Jones, Dan Kimball, Thomas Keating, Erwin McManus, Thomas Merton, Donald Miller, Henri Nouwen, Doug Pagitt, Robert Webber.

These men have gone out of their way to blatantly deny the Jesus Christ of the Bible.  They have gone out of their way to say that ALL Religions no matter what you believe all lead to the same God.  They teach Occult practices leading people into a ‘secret’ place where the line between their inner self and god start to become one.  These people above have dialogued and agreed with the teachings of the Roman Catholic Church, Muslims, Hundu’s, Wiccans, Jewish Mystics, Buddhists, and New Agers –  lets we say Satanists.  Some of these people even speak openly that the Bible is no longer needed as their is a NEW truth that is taking the world by storm.  The list of thing these people teach is never ending!

Every blasphemy that these people speak all comes from one and the same mouth – Satan.

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source:   http://freddiescoffeebar.wordpress.com/2009/05/07/reaching-out-to-others-deception-in-the-church

Deborah (Discerning the World)

Deborah Ellish is the author of the above article. Discerning the World is an internet Christian Ministry based in Johannesburg South Africa. Tom Lessing and Deborah Ellish both own Discerning the World. For more information see the About this Website page below the comments section.

17 Responses

  1. Hi

    I’ll try answer it bit by bit… That okay?

    “Freddie honestly believes that born again Christians and the Emergent Christian are the same. Freddie honestly believes therefore that when ‘Christians’ are questioning what they believe and preach are actually attacking them.”
    I don’t recall saying that I think Christians and “the Emergent Christian” are the same thing. I might have implied it, according to you, because I don’t really know what your defenition of “Emergent Christian” are.

    “Why don’t you mention WHY you are being questioned”
    I didn’t say that I’m the one being questiond.

    “We question your anti-gospel teaching Freddie and that you lead the people who attend your church astray with anti-Christ reaching”
    I don’t have a place that I’m teaching at. I’m still a student. In the Dutch Reform Church, one can only start preaching (teaching) when you have studied for 6 years. I’m a 3rd year student.

    “Of course an Emergent blog would be the FIRST place you would go too for support”
    I said: “I also have some infrequent chats with people on my other blog site about the so called “emergent” movement. And they refer me to all kinds of places that attacks the above-mentioned groups of people”. I’m not referred to any Emergent blogs. And I don’t really visit any Emergent blogs. None that Iknow of, anyway. (My question remains, what is “emergent”?)

    “When you show your love to non-Christians, do you sit with them and preach the Gospel of Jesus Christ, that Jesus is fully human and fully God, born of the Holy Spirit”
    Have you ever done Evangelism towards a “hard-core” Islamic or Jewish believer? If you have, you’de know that you have to love them first and preach to the later.

    “esus is fully human and fully God, born of the Holy Spirit. Sent by God to save the world. That Jesus Christ the ONLY Son of God died the most gruesome death on a cross that our sins will be washed away by His Blood. But this promise if only for those who believe in Him and genuinely repent of their sin, and become born again by God’s Holy Spirit. That this promise is not available to those who refuse to believe in Jesus Christ the Son of God but instead follow false doctrines, a false Christ and doctrines of demons”
    I believe everything you just said.

    “Do you say this Freddie, or does your love only mean you agree with them, that we are all on the same path, just different stages, but if they accept Christ everything will change for them. A transformation will take place and if everyone on earth just did this, what a wonderful place the world would be?”
    Love does not mean conform and throwing away my believes. It does mean, however, to walk with the person until he/she is ready to hear the truth.
    If people accept Christ, there will come peace. Everyone is on a different spiritual path and at a different place in relation to Christ.
    If you think that I’m saying that you can accept Christ and keep believing other things, as if Christ isn’t the only way to God, you are wrong. He did say He is the only Way, Truth and Life.

    “You don’t reach people Freddie, God is the one that does the speaking and reaching”
    You might be right, that it is God who speaks and reach. But how does He speak and reach? Through His body. Through His church. Through us. Maybe I didn’t understand you correctly?

    “How can speaking the Truth to someone be called hatred?”
    How can speaking the Truth without some kind of relationship be love? Jesus always reached out to people before He spoke Truth. He didn’t judge the Samaratin women before first establishing a relationship. He never Bible-bashed anyone.

    “John 14:6”
    That’s the Scripture I mentioned above.

    “The New Age Spirituality invites people to journey into themselves, to find the god within them”
    That’s why I know that I’m not part of New Age Spirituality. God is within me, through the Holy Spirit. Only after I accepted Jesus as the only Truth, Way and Life…

  2. Discerning The World says:

    Hi Freddie

    Thanks for commenting, I am happy that you broke some of my questions done piece by piece. Understand from my side and that is I do love you. I was once a sinner of mass proportions but the true Jesus Christ of the Bible saved me from death. If the Holy Spirit is speaking to you, there is nothing I can say that will make you see unless you choose to listen to God’s voice trying to warn you.

    I can sit with you, make the best of friends with you, have coffee until it comes out of our ears, I can even bake you a cake. But will you listen to the Holy Spirit? I do not know. If I come across as angry, upset, disappointed, and speak the truth with such passion that you get the shock of your life and you yourself get upset. Would you listen to the Holy Spirit speaking to you? I still can’t answer this. Only you know.

    So, the point is, no matter how I say it Freddie, if you want to heed the warning of the Holy Spirit and allow God to work in your life and open your eyes completely to the truth of what’s really going on in the world – then God will open your eyes for you seek Him with all the love you can possibly muster in your heart. And once you see the truth, you will find yourself warning like I do, with an urgency that makes everything else in life meaningless.

    So, back to Emerging. Firstly, many people actually don’t know what Emergent means. They all seem to think it does not really exist; it’s just a term that hangs in the air. Well Emergent means, merging. Everything in the world is merging into one. All religions are coming together as one. Emergent can also mean emerging – the NEW truth (which is not the Word of God) is emerging out into the open. For we are in a NEW AGE. Have you not heard this been said on every channel on tv and practically every newspaper, magazine, etc., You don’t even need DSTV, just watch SABC.

    So when Rob Bell sits with on a stage with the Dalai Lama, Desmond Tutu, a Muslim, a Hindu, some hectic Buddhist women with a bald head, Mystics, New Age Spiritualist, a Wiccan witch and agrees with them ALL that the world is coming to a place where we will all be one in Christ. That the Christ that the Islam awaits, that the Christ that the Buddhist awaits, that the Christ that the ‘Christians aka Roman Catholics await, that the Christ that the New Age awaits, are all one and the same Christ.

    Now as per genuine scripture this is absolutely impossible and completely contradictory to what Jesus said! Who do we believe is telling the truth? Jesus Christ who tells us in His Word what the truth is or these false teachers who proclaim that we need to express ‘love and build relationships’ in order to save the world.
    They call it Unity in Diversity. Love your neighbor as you love yourself. Share, stop been greedy, give with an open heart; accept everyone around you as a brother. We are all one world, a global community who all seek after the same thing. Peace on earth.

    Sounds great, sounds wonderful. The bible speaks of these things too. Jesus mentioned these things over and over. The problem is, this message is not biblical, i.e., the real meaning that lies dormant behind this new world ideology is one of darkness. It’s a deception.

    When the bible speaks about love and loving your neighbor and giving, etc., Jesus speaks these things from a completely born again perspective. You can only truly produce GOOD fruit from a GOOD tree. The fruit that the One World Religion (Emerging Church) speaks about is bad fruit from a bad tree. It still appears as a fruit though, so everyone still thinks it’s ok to eat.

    The Emergies have taken ancient secrets, knowledge, basically OLD news, and made in NEW knowledge, NEW news. Everyone is now running after this new knowledge because it promises to give them something they have lacked their whole lives – getting in contact with God. The problem is, which God? The False Christ, the Lawless one that is already here and is just waiting to make himself completely known. The Anti-Christ who is so brilliant in his thinking, so engaging to everyone he comes into contact with. He is loved by practically everyone in the entire world. The one who is going to save the world from their current problems. They call him the Messiah.

    >> Have you ever done Evangelism towards a “hard-core” Islamic or Jewish believer? If you have, you’d know that you have to love them first and preach to the later.

    I do love first, this is why I warn. If I did not love I would not care one bit to warn. I would let everyone just go on their merry narrow path until they reached the end of the cliff and fell off. I’ve gone and put up multiple signs along the way, telling people there is a cliff at the end with overgrown lush looking foliage disguising the edge.

    I’ve received death threats (in love of course lol), but I carry on…if I person listens to the Holy Spirits warning, it will be worth everything I have gone through and will continue to go through. And I know it’s only going to get worse for me and everyone else who stands up for the true gospel of Jesus Christ.

    >> If you think that I’m saying that you can accept Christ and keep believing other things, as if Christ isn’t the only way to God, you are wrong. He did say He is the only Way, Truth and Life.

    I am happy to hear that, but the place you are studying at actually teaches this and denies, insults and mocks your Lord Jesus Christ. Will you stop studying at this place, so that you won’t be deceived further? You can read the article I posted oh what Cobus van Wyngaard has to say about Jesus. The Dutch Reformed Church / NG has become a dark vessel preaching the darkest things. The people who are teaching you might sound like they are teaching you the truth, but behind the scenes say things that will make genuine Born Again Christians cringe in horror.

    My husband met a little old lady the other day, and they got into a conversation about the NG church. She said her and her husband have left. She could not take it anymore. The things they are preaching are blasphemous, the light candles, have dark places to go and pray, invite the youth to meditate. They take the youth away on camps where they teach them New Age Spiritualism.

    I pray Freddie that you will take the time in your busy schedule to find out the truth, take what you have been taught. Things that did not make entire sense to you; go and study these things on your own, asking the Holy Spirit to help you understand. You have an entire internet at your disposal, the truth is spoken by many (yet at the same time not that many when you work out the ratio). Notice how verses have been used to broadcast another message, a message that is not what Jesus Christ meant.

    >> You might be right, that it is God who speaks and reach. But how does He speak and reach? Through His body. Through His church. Through us. Maybe I didn’t understand you correctly?

    People are reached through God’s Son Jesus Christ, His Word, His Holy Spirit – Jesus is the Word of God. The Word was made Flesh. We are just vessels to spread the gospel message – spread the word. We can’t save people, we can’t convince anyone to believe and accept Jesus into their lives. Only through the Holy Spirit can this take place. One of the funniest comments I receive (If I told you over a hundred time I would not be exaggerating) is; How many people have you saved? How presumptuous to think we have the power to save someone. Jesus told his disciples to preach His message and if the towns and cities they went too refused to listen they were to LEAVE and wipe the dust from their feet.

    People only need to hear the truth once, that is enough, the seed is sown. Whether they choose to accept that Jesus is the Son of God and repent of their sin and be genuinely born again that moment or later is another matter entirely. We can in no way make this happen through ‘building a relationship’ with the person.

    >> How can speaking the Truth without some kind of relationship be love? Jesus always reached out to people before He spoke Truth.

    How did He reach out to the them? He immediately spoke the truth!!! Not the other way around. What happened then? Some people went off and plotted to have him killed. Jesus always spoke the truth in love, but the ones who hate the truth comes to steal, kill and destroy. There were times when Jesus even walked away from people and never spoke to them because he knew they were only interested in the healings and not the One who brings the healing.

    >> He didn’t judge the Samaritan women before first establishing a relationship. He never Bible-bashed anyone.

    Unbelievable, I thought about this verse about 5 minutes before I read your comment. What a co-inkie-dinkie. He did not judge the Samaritan women at the well. He did not make a back and forth dialogue with her either about ‘the meaning of life’. The only questions He asked her was for water, she was surprised, asked who He was and He immediately told her the truth! No ifs or buts.

    In fact, if I am not mistaken…let me go and find it quickly, it was an Emergent teacher who actually said something very similar to what you said above. What a coincidence that you speak the same. In other words, you use the same example, in the same way that a ‘all religions lead to one god’ promoter would say. Have you already been indoctrinated into the way they think, without even realising it?

    Here is it: Dan Kimball’s book, ‘They like Jesus but not the church’ he says:

    “He stopped and asked questions of the Samaritan women (John 4) and didn’t jump in and say, “Samaritans are all wrong”.

    What a load of horse-pucky!

    See how Kimball has taken the passage and lied about what happened. He implies that Jesus built a relationship with her first. Dan Kimball is basically saying that the WORST thing you can do is tell unbelievers the truth outright.

    We have to love em first…what is this love then that he speaks about?

    >> That’s why I know that I’m not part of New Age Spirituality. God is within me, through the Holy Spirit. Only after I accepted Jesus as the only Truth, Way and Life…

    Ok, lets see how the New Age Spiritual Formation interpret this. They believe too that God is within you. They have take scripture from the bible and used it for their own devices. They say when ‘Christ’ enters you you actually become a Christ, or you start to become like Christ. This is very very different to when you are truly born again the Holy Spirit comes to abide in you, and you grow in your relationship with Jesus Christ that you take on genuine Christian traits which is the Good Fruit Jesus speaks off.

    Anyhow, that’s my two cents for the day…but I will say this just one more time, you need to stop, take your bible, take what you have been taught certain scripture to mean and go and research it yourself to see if what they have told you is true. I realised yesterday and wrote an article last night called, ‘Sell a defect product to keep your job as a pastor” that the lie comes straight from the top, and is passed down to the students. The students argue emphatically that what they preach is the truth because this is what they have actually being taught. So in essence they are not lying. They wrote their exams based on lies. They know no better. But unfortunately for them this excuse does not hold water with God.

  3. Emergent… Emerging. I see what you mean… But, have you ever thought that what really is emerging is just a new conscieceness (sorry, my spelling suck!) of what the needs of people are and a new way of seeking a new package in which to bring the message to the people.
    I.e. it doesn’t work to just preach and preach and preach. The chance are that you’re preaching to the saved anyway. How does that help the Great Commission?

    If people like Rob Bell say, “all truth are from God” (a quote I’ve heard Rob Bell says regularly, only ever read ONCE), does he actually mean that if it contradicts the Bible you still live according to it?
    And when those people do sit together with Dalai Lama or whoever, is it there way to start communicating?

    In the history of the church there are many instances where Christians didn’t care much about building bridges. The point was to get people converted. Think about the Middle Ages, the Crusades, and so on. Are religion, Christianity or relationship with God real if it is forced? Then God could have, from the beginning, just have forced Adam and Eve not to listen to the snake.
    I sometimes wonders what would have happened if Christians during the crusades listened to Islamic people instead of just to kill them. Maybe then something like a plane into Twin Towers wouldn’t have happened. Maybe the Christianity would still be preached in the schools.

    “I am happy to hear that, but the place you are studying at actually teaches this and denies, insults and mocks your Lord Jesus Christ…The Dutch Reformed Church / NG has become a dark vessel preaching the darkest things. The people who are teaching you might sound like they are teaching you the truth, but behind the scenes say things that will make genuine Born Again Christians cringe in horror”
    Were you ever in even one single class? If not, what right do you have in saying this? Do you know the people who give the classes? If not, how can you say this?
    Are you part of the NG Church?

    “My husband met a little old lady the other day, and they got into a conversation about the NG church. She said her and her husband have left. She could not take it anymore. The things they are preaching are blasphemous, the light candles, have dark places to go and pray, invite the youth to meditate. They take the youth away on camps where they teach them New Age Spiritualism.”
    Can you name the church that does this? It doesn’t happen in any of the churches that I know of, except if there are secret camps with secret people that no one, not even the different pastors know of. (Churches I know of are: NG Moreletapark, NG Bergsig, NG Rustenburg Suid, NG Wes, NG Universiteitsoord)
    What is wrong with lighting candles?

    “>> He didn’t judge the Samaritan women before first establishing a relationship. He never Bible-bashed anyone.

    Unbelievable, I thought about this verse about 5 minutes before I read your comment. What a co-inkie-dinkie. He did not judge the Samaritan women at the well. He did not make a back and forth dialogue with her either about ‘the meaning of life’. The only questions He asked her was for water, she was surprised, asked who He was and He immediately told her the truth! No ifs or buts.

    In fact, if I am not mistaken…let me go and find it quickly, it was an Emergent teacher who actually said something very similar to what you said above. What a coincidence that you speak the same. In other words, you use the same example, in the same way that a ‘all religions lead to one god’ promoter would say. Have you already been indoctrinated into the way they think, without even realising it?

    Here is it: Dan Kimball’s book, ‘They like Jesus but not the church’ he says:

    “He stopped and asked questions of the Samaritan women (John 4) and didn’t jump in and say, “Samaritans are all wrong”.

    What a load of horse-pucky!

    See how Kimball has taken the passage and lied about what happened. He implies that Jesus built a relationship with her first. Dan Kimball is basically saying that the WORST thing you can do is tell unbelievers the truth outright.”
    Sorry, I quoted this whole part, because I don’t understand that you bring together relationship-building with “‘all religions lead to one god’”

    “They say when ‘Christ’ enters you you actually become a Christ, or you start to become like Christ”
    Well, “they” talk a lot of “horse-pucky”, to use your words…

    I am in a class full of students who might tell you that they don’t just eat up what is said in classes. And that is only in my third-year class. Not everyone who quotes a New Ager are New Age.

  4. Discerning The World says:

    Oh well…I tried.

  5. Discerning The World says:

    Freddie

    >> Not everyone who quotes a New Ager are New Age.

    So as per your definition, not everyone who quotes favourably from the Satanic Bible follows the occult or satanism…hehe, try pull the wool over anothers eyes why don’t you.

  6. Amanda says:

    Freddie: “I sometimes wonders what would have happened if Christians during the crusades listened to Islamic people instead of just to kill them.”

    They would have been killed. And 9/11 will happen again. And the Taliban is closing in on the lovely nuclear arsenal of Pakistan. The global jihad is going splendidly. The following quote should help you out a bit. Then follow the link to Jihad Watch and discover for yourself if Islam is like Christianity only different. And Freddie, the UP has already been exposed by Sarel van der Merwe’s DVD. If you are still unaware of what is happening in your own church, you can go and find out about it at Waak en Bid.

    From Islam 101:

    In both the Western academia and media as well as in the Islamic world, the Crusades are viewed as wars of aggression fought by bloody-minded Christians against peaceful Muslims. While the Crusades were certainly bloody, they are more accurately understood as a belated Western response to centuries of jihad than as an unprovoked, unilateral attack. Muslim rule in the Holy Land began in the second half of the 7th century during the Arab wave of jihad with the conquests of Damascus and Jerusalem by the second “rightly-guided Caliph,” Umar. After the initial bloody jihad, Christian and Jewish life there was tolerated within the strictures of the dhimma and the Muslim Arabs generally permitted Christians abroad to continue to make pilgrimage to their holy sites, a practice which proved lucrative for the Muslim state. In the 11th century, the relatively benign Arab administration of the Holy Land was replaced with that of Seljuk Turks, due to civil war in the Islamic Empire. Throughout the latter half of the 11th century, the Turks waged war against the Christian Byzantine Empire and pushed it back from its strongholds in Antioch and Anatolia (now Turkey). In 1071, Byzantine forces suffered a crushing defeat at the Battle of Manzikert in what is now Eastern Turkey. The Turks resumed the jihad in the Holy Land, abusing, robbing, enslaving, and killing Christians there and throughout Asia Minor. They threatened to cut off Christendom from its holiest site, the Church of the Holy Sepulchre in Jerusalem, rebuilt under Byzantine stewardship after it was destroyed by Caliph Al-Hakim bi-Amr Allah in 1009.

    It was in this context of a renewed jihad in the Middle East that the Roman Pope, Urban II, issued a call in 1095 for Western Christians to come to the aid of their Eastern cousins (and seems to have harbored the hope of claiming Jerusalem for the Papacy after the Great Schism with Eastern Christianity in 1054). This “armed pilgrimage,” in which numerous civilians as well as soldiers took part, would eventually become known years later as the First Crusade. The idea of a “crusade” as we now understand that term, i.e., a Christian “holy war,” developed years later with the rise of such organizations as the Knights Templar that made “crusading” a way of life. It worth noting that the most ardent Crusaders, the Franks, were exactly those who had faced jihad and razzias for centuries along the Franco-Spanish border and knew better than most the horrors to which Muslims subjected Christians. At the time of the First Crusade, the populations of Asia Minor, Syria, and Palestine, though ruled by Muslims, were still overwhelmingly Christian. The “Crusading” campaigns of the Western Christian armies were justified at the time as a war liberating the Eastern Christians, whose population, lands, and culture had been devastated by centuries of jihad and dhimmitude. Conquering territory for God in the mode of jihad was an alien idea to Christianity and it should not be surprising that it eventually died out in the West and never gained ascendancy in the East.

    Following the very bloody capture of Jerusalem in 1099 by the Latin armies and the establishment of the Crusader States in Edessa, Antioch, and Jerusalem, the Muslim and Christian forces fought a see-saw series of wars, in which both parties were guilty of the usual gamut of wartime immorality. Over time, even with reinforcing Crusades waged from Europe, the Crusader States, strung out on precarious lines of communication, slowly succumbed to superior Muslim power. In 1271, the last Christian citadel, Antioch, fell to the Muslims. No longer having to divert forces to subdue the Christian beachhead on the Eastern Mediterranean, the Muslims regrouped for a 400-year-long jihad against Southern and Eastern Europe, which twice reached as far as Vienna before it was halted. In geostrategic terms, the Crusades can be viewed as an attempt by the West to forestall its own destruction at the hands of Islamic jihad by carrying the fight to the enemy. It worked for a while.

    Significantly, while the West has for some time now lamented the Crusades as mistaken, there has never been any mention from any serious Islamic authority of regret for the centuries and centuries of jihad and dhimmitude perpetrated against other societies. But this is hardly surprising: while religious violence contradicts the fundamentals of Christianity, religious violence is written into Islam’s DNA.

  7. Amanda says:

    Freddie

    If you know NG Bergsig, then you should also know that Ds. Attie Nel is leading them to do spiritual disciplines. In the sermon “Die werk van die Heilige Gees” 17 May, you can hear him quote Richard Foster, claiming that God gave us the spiritual disciplines as a means of receiving His grace. Their sermons do not stay on their site for long, but I can e-mail it to you. You also need to find out who Richard Foster is.

  8. Discerning The World says:

    Thanks Amanda!!!

  9. Amanda says:

    Freddie:

    Something new that is old: the labyrinth.

    The labyrinth “where people can find peace, harmony, and connect with transcendence.”

    Contemplative spirituality in your reformed denomination.

    Ds. Johan van den Heever Eldoraigne Familiekerk: “The goal in Christian meditation is to enter into silence where God dwells. In the silence one can experience the intimate unity with God.”

    But then, you knew all this, Freddie.

  10. Discerning The World says:

    Writing an article on the Labyrinth since yesterday…guess who has a link on his blog condoning and also suggesting that christian youth sould walk labyrinths. (Edit: Oh you referred to him already, oops). Same guy who said hes going to teach Lecto Divina to his young followers….

    In fact Freddie if you want MORE proof (not sure how much you actually need before your eyes are opened to the truth) just read Cobus’ blog then ask him why he also wrote the following article : .

    Do you feel disgust that he could mock and insult your Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ like this? Does this upset you? Does this hurt your heart in any way. Do you think this hurts the one you call your Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ?

    Also, don’t you think this article by Jaco Gericke (Faculty of Theology, University of Pretoria) is insulting to students? Do you in any way feel like he has insulted you, by mocking born again Christians?

    Will you stand up for Jesus Christ the only Son of God, or will you stand on the side of those who hate Jesus Christ and follow the FALSE CHRIST that Jesus Christ warned YOU about?

  11. Amanda says:

    Freddie:
    Ds. Jannie Pelser on Radio Pulpit:

    “Is God se openbaring, God se werk, nie groter as net die Christendom nie? Sou daar nie ook elemente wees, sou ons nie by mekaar kon leer [nie], selfs al moet dit nou die New Age wees. Maar as ek dink rondom die kontemplatiewe . . . ‘n stil word voor God, ‘n oopstel voor God. is dit nie ‘n winsmoment nie?”

    Ds. Guillaume Smit:

    “Ongetwyfeld is dit ‘n winsmoment. Die Bybel self sê vir ons, in Romeine nogal, dat waar die mense nie die wet van Moses het nie, gaan God in hulle harte kyk want hulle skryf hulle eie wet in hulle harte neer en die konteks daar is baie duidelik dat dit gaan oor mense wat nie die openbaring van die Jode gekry het voordat hulle Christene geword het nie, of dan nou selfs doodgegaan het sonder blootstelling aan die Joodse geloof of die Christelike geloof nie. ‘n Mens kry die idee dat die Bybel self die uitspraak lewer dat God met die hele wêreld besig is, ook buite om die Christendom. Daarmee sê ek nie almal gaan hemel toe nie. Daarom sê ek ons moet daai vraag op die tafel sit dat God besig is met alles en met almal en dat ons die draers van die openbaring is, as gelowige Christene, maar spesifiek wil ek dan ook sê, die winsmoment is die feit dat ons die geleentheid het om in gesprek te tree met kultuuruitinge wat ons in staat stel om tot stilstand te kom sodat ons weer op ‘n vars manier kan hoor wat God vir ons wil sê. Jy het na die kontemplatiewe verwys. Die kontemplatiewe lê toevallig in die vroeë kerk . . . en kom uit die kloosterera uit en as ‘n mens daarop sou ingaan dan dink ek nie ‘n mens moet die baba met die badwater uitgooi nie. En ‘n mens moet veral ook bereid wees om, wanneer ‘n mens mense wil beoordeel, in gesprek met hulle te tree en na hulle te luister want om ‘n ding krities te ondersoek beteken nie dat jy net foute uitlig nie maar dat jy ook na die persoon se hart gaan kyk en na sy integriteit gaan kyk.”

    Ongetwyfeld? Maybe not.

    Ds. Guillaume Smit:

    “I have recently been accused of supporting new age philosophies. At the time, I decided not to react to the specifics, as the discussion was initiated and conducted through quite an amount of mud slinging. As I am at heart a researcher, I decided to rather look into the latest information on new age philosophy and try to see if what I conveyed during a radio interview indeed could be perceived to be supporting new age influences, and more specifically if today’s church is really infiltrated with new age thinking.”

    Rob Bell according to Ds. Smit:

    “I am not a follower of Stephan Joubert’s thoughts. I came to my own conclusions by theological study and personal reflection and an ongoing investigation of the Bible. For the record, conclusions I made in 1997 during postgraduate studies regarding the need for a new evangelistic approach and ecclesiology (or teaching about the nature of the church), was afterward also reflected by pastors and ministers in what eventually came to be known as the emerging church. Stephan was not my promotor for this study. We are, however, good friends, and I trust his integrity and judgment. When he attests to somebody else’s authenticity, such as what he said about Rob Bell (and that I referred to during the radio programme), I have enough trust in his opinion and integrity to accept it at face value.”

    The Gospel according to Rob Bell, the ChristianI would say that history is headed somewhere. The thousands of little ways in which you are tempted to believe that hope might actually be a legitimate response to the insanity of the world actually can be trusted. And the Christian story is that a tomb is empty, and a movement has actually begun that has been present in a sense all along in creation. And all those times when your cynicism was at odds with an impulse within you that said that this little thing might be about something bigger—those tiny little slivers may in fact be connected to something really, really big.”

    Freddie the student, now you need to find out about Rob’s hero, Ken Wilbur the Buddhist, and integral theory. Oh, wait. You can ask Prof. Stephan Joubert. I am sure Rob explained it to him.

  12. Amanda says:

    You’re welcome.

  13. Who would Jaco Gericke be? I never heard of him, especially not at UP

  14. Discerning The World says:

    Well lets email and find out, email address is at the bottom of the post.

  15. Discerning The World says:

    Having said that, Cobus exisits. Until we find out who JW Gericke is, I can still ask you what you think about Cobus’ article. Good or Bad?

  16. Discerning The World says:

    Oh gosh, I left off the email address…let me find it quick.

  17. Discerning The World says:

    His email has been added to the end of the article above as it was on the Word document.

    Also I found his handle at UPSpace at the University of Pretoria.

    And this sure as nuts is not a “phishing” website. lol

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