Eternal Security – Genuinely Saved, Always Saved!

Deborah (Discerning the World)

Discerning the World is an internet Discernment ministry based in Johannesburg South Africa that was founded by Deborah du Rand in 2008. Tom Lessing joined Deborah in May 2013. Tom Lessing founded the website "Waak en Bid/Watch and Pray" which was closed in 2013 and articles moved across to DTW.

68 Responses

  1. Deborah (Discerning the World) says:

    A question raised under another topic was:

    In order for you to backslide you need to have been in the position of being saved.

    How about this one. The Bible tells you to keep to the narrow path. If you are saved then surely you will constantly be on the narrow path? I am sure you can wonder off, BUT can you wonder off so far that you get completely lost and end up cursing God and denying Him.

  2. Burning Lamp says:

    P.S. I am sure you know this, but David Cloud is about as non-Calvinist as one could get. It is a misnomer that the true doctrine of eternal security has anything whatsoever to do with the error of the P in the TULIP. It comes from an entirely different premise and never shall the two even come close to meeting.

  3. Burning Lamp says:

    This is what David Cloud says in his EXCELLENT article on the topic of eternal security. I see you just posted on this as I am composing this. Wish I had seen it earlier, but wouldn’t hurt to post another one. This is really good. Here is the link:

    PHILIPPIANS 2:12. This verse does not say that the child of God must work FOR or work UP his salvation; it says he must work OUT his salvation. These are very different things. To work up or to work for my salvation would mean that I have a part in my salvation and that unless I do my part, I will not be saved. On the other hand, to work out my salvation means God has given me eternal salvation as a free gift in Jesus Christ, and it is His will that I obey Him, not in order to save myself or in order to help God save me, but BECAUSE I am already saved. Verse 13 makes this clear, that it is God who provides the complete salvation. Obedience, holy living is the evidence of salvation. The Christian life is a miracle of God that is wrought from within. The power of the Christian life is the indwelling Holy Spirit, but the Christian is not passive. He is to be controlled by the Spirit (Eph. 5:18), to be led by the Spirit (Rom. 8:14), to walk after the Spirit (Rom. 8:4; Gal. 6:25), to mind the things of the Spirit (Rom. 8:5).

  4. Deborah (Discerning the World) says:

    BL

    >> It is a misnomer that the true doctrine of eternal security has anything whatsoever to do with the error of the P in the TULIP.

    Totally agree. Through this article by Johan Malan and then the one by David Cloud (which I will post tomorrow) but people can look at the link for now – we will come to the TRUTH and sift through the scriptures. I believe this is a VERY important topic. why?

    1) Because of the FALSE twisting of scripture of eternal security in the Calvinist manner that is also found in WoF and New Age (if you are a little god, then well… you are a little god and can do to yourself what you like.)

    2) Because I believe that when you are truly saved you are eternally secure, not through anything of your own doing (we do not work for our salvation.) But because of the Holy Spirit abiding in us; we WILL obey God, we will listen to the conviction of the Holy Spirit and repent, we will grow in our relationship with Jesus. We will learn tough lessons when we do sin (because even though we are saved, we can still SIN) but we repent.

    The way that Johan Malan is looking at it is almost the direct extreme of being ‘chosen’. You spend your life in fear wondering if you have lost your salvation.

    Calvinist – either chosen by God or you are doomed. You get to heaven and are told you are not on the list (even though you worked your whole life to remain as holy as possible).

    Now the other extreme – You are chosen/saved but you can lose it.

  5. carrie daniel says:

    Thanks, I haven’t read this, but the issue came up in a bible study 2 days ago. I think there are extremes on both sides of salvation. Faith has seemed to be the main concern with God, as in Hebrews, we are told “with out faith it is impossible to please Him.” We are saved by faith, also, we are kept by the power of God- through faith. Also, I sincerely believe the warnings of scriputre apply to believers, since a lost person cannot fall away from a faith or forsake faith they never even had. I will read this article by the way. Also, I think we can set up doctrines and them frame the word of God around it thus changing scriptures to back up a doctrine of man. sincerely–carrie daniel

  6. Burning Lamp says:

    Debs – You nailed it. ES is a precious doctrine that the enemy has been successful in twisting, perverting, subverting and confusing to the detriment of the Body. Thanks for setting it straight and contending and defending the faith!

  7. Deborah (Discerning the World) says:

    Carrie

    You will see the article has changed slightly to now include 2 articles, one for and one against. This is a very nice way to clearly see how scripture can be taken out of context and as you say, frame a doctrine with scripture (I like the way you said that).

    Read them both and let me know what you think. I think Hebrews 6 is the main problem – for me that is. It’s a problem because it’s very difficult to understand, UNLESS you read it slowly and carefully – then it makes sense.

  8. Burning Lamp says:

    Isn’t it a bit curious that the Prof. quotes Pink? Though a highly revered theologian, he sounds like a confused Calvinist who apparently doesn’t hold to the perseverance of the saints. If one is opposed to Calvinism, why make the choice to quote someone of the opposing viewpoint?

  9. Deborah (Discerning the World) says:

    Burning Lamp

    >> Isn’t it a bit curious that the Prof. quotes Pink?

    Yes I thought so too. He could have chosen someone else to quote from. Of better yet, why even quote someone?

  10. Deborah (Discerning the World) says:

    In David Clouds article what does he mean by?

    Under the heading of: HOW DO WE KNOW THESE BLESSINGS CANNOT BE LOST?

    3. The blessings of salvation cannot be lost because of the teaching of election: Election does not destroy human responsibility (2 Th. 2:10-13; Ac. 13:46,48), but election does promise security for the believer (Ro. 8:28-39; Ep. 1; 1 Pe. 1:2-7).

    This is a confusing statement. Is David Cloud for or against the doctrine of election/predestination?

  11. Burning Lamp says:

    Cloud on his website has a series of articles on Calvinism. He strongly disputes it and supports Dave Hunt’s refutation of it.I, too find his statement in the article confusing. He makes the following statement regarding election in his article refuting Calvinism:

    VERSES THAT ARE USED TO SUPPORT THE CALVINIST DOCTRINE OF UNCONDITIONAL SOVEREIGN ELECTION AND SOVEREIGN REPROBATION

    “According to this doctrine, God unconditionally and “sovereignly” elects who will be saved and who will not be saved and this election has nothing to do with anything the sinner does, including exercising faith in the gospel. Consider the words of the Westminster Confession: “By the decree of God, for the manifestation of his glory, some men and angels are predestined unto everlasting life and others foreordained to everlasting death. These angels and men, thus predestinated and foreordained, are particularly and unchangeably designed; and their number is so certain and definite that it cannot be either increased or diminished. … The rest of mankind, God was pleased, according to the unsearchable counsel of his own will, whereby he extendeth or withholdeth mercy as he pleaseth, for the glory of his sovereign power over his creatures, to pass by, and to ordain them to dishonor and wrath for their sin, to the praise of his glorious justice.”

    John Calvin expressed the doctrine of unconditional election in these words: “Predestination we call the decree of God, by which He has determined in Himself, what He would have to become of every individual of mankind. For they are not all created with a similar destiny: but eternal life is foreordained for some, and eternal damnation for others” (Institutes of the Christian Religion, Book III, chap. 21).

    Note that sovereign election is accompanied by the twin doctrine of sovereign reprobation of the non-elect. Calvin emphasized this as follows. “[God] devotes to destruction whom he pleases … they are predestinated to eternal death without any demerit of their own, merely by his sovereign will. … he orders all things by his counsel and decree in such a manner, that some men are born devoted from the womb to certain death, that his name by glorified in their destruction. … God chooses whom he will as his children … while he rejects and reprobates others” (Institutes of Christian Religion, Book III, chap. 23).

    He then goes into specific verses – the link is

  12. Valerie says:

    This subject is so tricky because everyone comes with their preconceived ideas and then reads that into the Scripture. I do believe that I am secure by the power of God, but that that security is applied by faith.

    Sin is what hardens a person and will eventually make shipwreck of their faith. This is why we should have a very real fear of continual sin. God is not counting our sins and then proclaiming that we are rejected. No God does not reject us, we end up turning away from trusting Him. It is all about trusting Christ or not, not how much you sin. We must indeed finish the race set before us. We must continue in faith. That is what Paul is talking about. It is not about good deeds, but sanctification by the Spirit. It is God who is at work in the Christian, but we can quench the work of the Spirit.

    I do not live in fear of losing my salvation, because I do fear sin and I am clinging to the Righteousness of Christ.

    Just my two cents on the subject.

  13. Elmarie A says:

    Valerie

    I do believe that I am secure by the power of God, but that that security is applied by faith.

    Sin is what hardens a person and will eventually make shipwreck of their faith. This is why we should have a very real fear of continual sin. God is not counting our sins and then proclaiming that we are rejected. No God does not reject us, we end up turning away from trusting Him. It is all about trusting Christ or not, not how much you sin. We must indeed finish the race set before us. We must continue in faith. That is what Paul is talking about. It is not about good deeds, but sanctification by the Spirit. It is God who is at work in the Christian, but we can quench the work of the Spirit.

    I do not live in fear of losing my salvation, because I do fear sin and I am clinging to the Righteousness of Christ.

    Just my two cents on the subject.

    This is indeed a lovely two cents piece. It truly brought tears to my eyes. Your words touched my heart strings. You know sometimes I wonder why we as people have to complicate everything. Nothing about Jesus and His disciples was complicated if we come to think of it. Man complicates everything for himself.

    Psalm 116:6 (Amplified Bible)
    The Lord preserves the simple; I was brought low, and He helped and saved me.

    Matthew 11:25-30 (Amplified Bible)
    25At that time Jesus began to say, I thank You, Father, Lord of heaven and earth [and [h]I acknowledge openly and joyfully to Your honor], that You have hidden these things from the wise and clever and learned, and revealed them to babies [to the [i]childish, untaught, and unskilled]. 26Yes, Father, [I praise You that] such was Your gracious will and good pleasure. 27All things have been entrusted and delivered to Me by My Father; and no one [j]fully knows and [k]accurately understands the Son except the Father, and no one [l]fully knows and [m]accurately understands the Father except the Son and anyone to whom the Son [n]deliberately wills to make Him known. 28 Come to Me, all you who labor and are heavy-laden and overburdened, and I will cause you to rest. [I will [o]ease and relieve and [p]refresh [q]your souls.] 29Take My yoke upon you and learn of Me, for I am gentle (meek) and humble (lowly) in heart, and you will find rest ([a]relief and ease and refreshment and [b]recreation and blessed quiet) for your souls.(A) 30 For My yoke is wholesome (useful, [c]good–not harsh, hard, sharp, or pressing, but comfortable, gracious, and pleasant), and My burden is light and easy to be borne.

  14. Burning Lamp says:

    Not trying to nitpick, but we are not to fear sin, we are to HATE what is false because we serve a holy God. Perfect love casts out fear. If we hate what is not pleasing to God we will not embrace it.

    Faith is not something we conjure up, it is a gift of God for us to exercise and grow as we trust Him and walk in it.

  15. Valerie says:

    Belief is not a gift, it is a command. We are commanded to Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ. Grace is the gift, our part is simply to believe what God has said.

  16. Burning Lamp says:

    Valerie,

    God grants everyone a measure of faith, it is a gift. However, it is our choice whether to act upon it and believe.

  17. Deborah (Discerning the World) says:

    Burning Lamp

    Nah I think we need to nitpick both of these articles, other wise we don’t get to the truth of the matter. What I want to do is take the truth of each article and compile it into a nice big one pro-es

    And yes you are right, we are not to fear sin. If we fear sin, then we fear Satan and that means there is a problem with ones salvation.
    We HATE evil, we hate false doctrine, we HATE all things that are not good.

    Faith has to be a gift from God. Men can’t create anything other than what God gave us when he created us. Faith can be used in the wrong way (where man will use his own faith to create something he never can) the right way, is faith to seek Jesus Christ, believe in Jesus Christ, having the Holy Spirit abide in you, and through faith you walk and grow and listen to the Holy Spirit in your life.

    Actually I think I just repeated what you said LB ahha

  18. Valerie says:

    Burning Lamp and Deborah,

    You misunderstood what I meant when I said I fear sin. I fear the consequenses of sin and I find it hard to believe that you ladies don’t as well or you would not have turned away from your sin nature and put your faith in Christ. Sin brings death! That is different than living “in fear”.

    I agree that each one is given a measure of faith, but I interpret that to mean that each person is given the ability to believe the truth. No one can say when they stand before God that they were unable to believe that they were a sinner in need of a Savior.

    I can see where you are coming from, and I hope that you will extend me grace as I am new to this site. I do not want to lead anyone astray from the Truth. Only one interpretation can be right and I will pray for us all that we will come to the knowlege of the Truth in this matter. If God shows me otherwise I am willing to change my perspective to line up with His and I know from reading here that you would do the same. Let us diligently seek His truth together.

    Have a blessed day!

  19. Deborah (Discerning the World) says:

    Valerie

    Oh sorry, I didn’t even read your comment. I only read Burning Lamp’s one. Sorry that was my fault for not understanding ‘where’ the conversation started.

    You are right when you said: “I fear the consequenses of sin and I find it hard to believe that you ladies don’t as well or you would not have turned away from your sin nature and put your faith in Christ. Sin brings death! That is different than living “in fear”.

    Boy what a blunder that was. See this is what happens when you are not on the blog for a few days. Takes me a while to get back into the swing of things.

  20. Deborah (Discerning the World) says:

    Regarding this article.

    While being ‘under the weather’ the last few days. This article that I posted has been bothering me. 1) Johan Malan’s article actually brought a fear over me – something I had not had in years. It was a terrible oppressed feeling of, ‘oh my…I could have lost my salvation already and not even known it”. When that happened I immediately know that was of Satan. So I immediately knew that I had to remove his article from my site. So tis is what I am going to do now.

    The whole point of my blog is to preach the truth and having 1 article for the truth and 1 article for error on my site was a very bad mistake and the Holy Spirit let me know. So I am obeying Him now and removing the false one.

    What I am also going to do is go write a note on all Johan Malan’s articles. Where there are problems. I will state as such.

  21. Burning Lamp says:

    Valerie, you said:

    “I agree that each one is given a measure of faith, but I interpret that to mean that each person is given the ability to believe the truth. No one can say when they stand before God that they were unable to believe that they were a sinner in need of a Savior.”

    Wholeheartedly agree!! Thanks for clarifying.

    You also said:

    “You misunderstood what I meant when I said I fear sin. I fear the consequenses of sin and I find it hard to believe that you ladies don’t as well or you would not have turned away from your sin nature and put your faith in Christ. Sin brings death! That is different than living “in fear”.”

    Dear sister, I misunderstood because you did not fully explain yourself and that generated my response. I now better understand where you are coming from. But I still maintain that my conversion was not based on fear. The Holy Spirit does not operate with fear, but rather conviction. There is a big difference. I do not agree that fear should be our motivation, but rather a hatred of sin, an abhorrance and aversion to it as something not pleasing to God and something that damages and destroys. That is not fear. When I do something wrong, my reaction is not fear, but regret and conviction and the need to repent and confess. I think we are more on the same page than you may think. Please understand, grace is extended without saying and if I came across without that coming through I apologize. Grace and peace to you!

  22. Burning Lamp says:

    Deborah, thank you for following the lead of the Holy Spirit in taking down the opposing view to ES. Thank you for standing for Truth!!

  23. carrie daniel says:

    Hi, thanks for these interesting posts and comments, I think its good for believers to have the issue settled, I am for sure no expert. I read the David Cloud article, I read the prior post as well,I think they both are on extreme ends of the issue , I think its good to be assured of salvation, I think on the other hand, I have always considered those warnings and they have put a healthy fear of God in me to not “mock” God. I am not saying I have walked perfectly and have never floundered around, I was not raised in church or have a christian background so I can say my “christian walk” has definitely been a wreck compared to others who know what is going on and I believe wholeheartedly we all are fallible and will fail from time to time. I am still musing on the issue, but I will probably never be convinced that a beleiver cannot possibly fall away, which would probably involve more that God arbitrarily cutting someone loose, I believe God chastens us, but we are warned against false teacher and diffrent gospels and I think that is where things can become “faith” issues- thanks . sincerely carrie daniel

  24. Valerie says:

    I just wanted to make some other comments reguarding Faith as a gift.

    Yes, God is the author of Faith. We do not as you said conjure up faith. We do not create faith, we exercise it.

    I like to think of it like this.

    God created our bodies to need food for nurishment and He made our bodies to process that food to provide strength for our bodies. God also created the food that we need. We have no power to make food grow or give strength to our bodies, but we can refuse to nurish our bodies and then we die.

    So even though God created the way our bodies work, He does not put the food in our mouths, chew it up and then swallow it for us.

    So it is with Spiritual food. God has created the food, His Holy Word, by which we gain spiritual strenghth through the work of the Holy Spirit. Unless we are united to Christ by exercising faith, Christ is of no benefit.

    Also I wanted to suggest a word study in the Greek of the words translated as faith,believe and trust. They are all from the same root word. Faith in generally the noun form and trust and believe are in verb form.

    So when I say Faith is not a gift, I mean that it is not done for us already, it must be exercised. Grace is what is done for us, the death, burial and resurrection of Christ to provide the blood atonement for our sins and certain hope of bodily resurrection.

    Luke 22:31 “Simon, Simon, behold, Satan has demanded permission to sift you like wheat;
    Luke 22:32 but I have prayed for you, that your faith may not fail; and you, when once you have turned again, strengthen your brothers.”

  25. Elmarie A says:

    Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Thank you Debs. 🙂

  26. Deborah (Discerning the World) says:

    carrie

    Completely on the extreme ends of the issue. I read the anti-security article a few times and taking my bible and studying the scriptures not having read David Clouds article – I could clearly see a huge problem.

    For me the word ‘taste’ amounts to a small sample – tasting a 6 course meal is no where near consuming a 6 course meal. This is in reference to the Hebrews 6 verses.

    Also it is very clear they are speaking to an unsaved person. For instances to use this in todays language this would be someone who goes to church every day – has experienced the Holy Spirit, been offered the gift (Jesus Christ), tasted the power of the Holy Spirit and STILL refuses Jesus Christ. They spend their lives in good works – acting like a Christian but their works are dead.

    And it goes back to what I always said. The question that needs to be asked when someone uses the ‘Once saved always saved’ statement is. ‘Was the person saved to start off with?’

    I am going to expand on this article by David Cloud – There are some verses I would like to explain in more detail using nice simple examples and easy to understand language lol.

    Oh there was something else I wanted to say and now I forgot LOL. Oh that’s what I wanted to say. We have the habit of reading verses supplied to us without reading the rest of the verse – or we carry on reading rest of the verse but fail to start at the beginning – reading what is says before the verse. Even I am guilty of this, we read the verse, we read the rest of the verse, get ourselves all tangled up in knots over nothing because we were to lazy to go and start from the beginning and read it in context.

  27. Grant C says:

    Burning Lamp / Deborah

    (This from a comment I made on “Twelve reasons for the rapture”, thought it might have relevance here aswell)

    Another thing about this doctrine – it is works-based. We didn’t earn our salvation and we can’t take any credit for maintaining it no matter how obedient we are.

    I don’t think one could make it much simpler than you state here. When Jesus saves us, we are found lost in a state of sin. The fact that we are saved by Grace at a point in our life, does not equate to us being sinless when we die, due to us having made further changes. We cannot perfect the saving Grace offered, it is perfect when we receive it.

    It cannot come into effect at a later stage, once perpetual sin has been removed or remedied by the sinner, because death may come very soon after salvation.

    It may also be that one person has a greater ability to exert self control than another to resist a specific sin. That would bring personal strength into the equation of maintaining salvation, which then removes Grace.

    Because we cannot overcome sin by our works, we cannot be saved through works and we cannot maintain salvation through our works. If we need to comply with stipulations to maintain salvation, we would be under the law. This would necessitate varied stipulations to determine with what regularity the sin would need to be committed (post salvation) to be regarded as perpetual. This would need to differ according to the individuals own ability to resist. This all gets rediculously complicated.

    That child will never be secure in their relationship with the parents and it will cause the child to obey out of fear, not because the relationship is built on love. I know what it is like to have such parents.

    Once again, this is simple to understand and true. I can fully second this, not only due to having had a similar experience in this regard, but because I have raised children. On reaching adulthood, they would certainly have drawn away from me, had the preceding 21 years or so, been based solely on them maintaining their security by complying with my rules. Countless times, the children were told to stop doing A, or change the way they were doing B, with very little or no effect. Today our relationship is stronger than ever, and they still do some things wrongly, even sinfully so.

    Certainly, a parents love for a child is indestructible. Indestructible, irrespective. In contrast, I find it impossible to love another’s child in the same way.

  28. Deborah (Discerning the World) says:

    Just thought I would add this because I can.

    It’s cold and I am turning blue. 21 deg C today? Yeah right.

  29. Burning Lamp says:

    Hope you gals made it through the night…………and did not become human icicles! I thought Africa was warm, even South Africa!

  30. Deborah (Discerning the World) says:

    Burning Lamp

    >> I thought Africa was warm, even South Africa!

    It’s lies I tell you all lies, lol. South Africa in summer is hot, but winter does get very cold in most parts of SA. Today is a clear sky…from Friday on wards it will get rainy and cold again. It’s that South Pole that causes all our problems as it pushes cold fronts in our direction. I think we need to petition to have the south pole moved to the north pole.

  31. Amanda says:

    Burning Lamp

    South Africans are terribly put out when we have to wear long sleeves. When it does snow it makes headline news and family outings are planned to go and build snowmen. South Africans also suffer greatly when we visit places like London and have to endure central heating. At home we might light a fire in the fireplace or switch on a heater a few times a year. Weather here.

    Deborah

    I think we need to petition to have the south pole moved to the north pole.

    It is possible, they think. Hey, if it will keep the heretics away I am all for it. We have enough of our own.

  32. Deborah (Discerning the World) says:

    Amanda

    >> When it does snow it makes headline news and family outings are planned to go and build snowmen

    Hahaha. My parents actually scooped up snow about 2-3 years ago into an ice cream container and put it in the deep freeze to show us kids when we went to visit. Amazingly it stayed soft and fluffy. It was about 5 minutes of excitement as we tried to build the smallest snowman in the history of mankind.

    >> Hey, if it will keep the heretics away I am all for it. We have enough of our own.

    I think they have spiritual wafered the south pole and attempted to walk around it at least 8 times to secure it as a geographical portal / hot spot. hmmm I think I just discovered who’s the cause of global warming.

  33. Amanda says:

    Groan. Now I have images of the world’s tiniest snowmen, melting away in their own hot air as they berate South Africans from their pulpits for not falling for: ‘God’s dream for this world is communism. If you would only meditate as I have taught you, it will be revealed to you. We are all oooooone’. Dripping pulpits all over the place.

  34. Elmarie A says:

    lol

  35. Grant C says:

    Deborah

    I was watching a sermon delivered by Prof Johan Malan, “Heiligmaking” a few days ago, in which he does say: “As jy waarlik gered is, se die Bybel, sal jy nogtans Hemel toe gaan” and he adds the qualification that one has to grow in Sanctification after initial justification, otherwise one will stand at judgement with empty hands.

    Could it be that we are (fortunately) missing his point slightly in his other piece and that his position is sound? Maybe we should pass on the DVD somehow to you…? I was relieved to hear the words.

  36. Deborah (Discerning the World) says:

    Grant

    This goes back to the very first paragraph that Elmarie pulled out from Prof Malan’s article. Where it said…. something… LOL, errrrr I know she posted it, but now I can’t remember where. Where he agrees on eternal security on the pretence THAT if you are genuinely saved then you are secure and will grow in sanctification because of the Holy Spirit in ones life. But if not saved (false salvation) then nope… you ain’t secure.

    Once saved, always saved – yes, BUT are you genuinely saved to start off with and not a fake Christian. It think we are missing his point. I think he spelt it out clearly and we did not take what he said into context with the rest of his article.

    You see, (and I will use an example of someone I know), this person believes they are saved, truly and utterly believes she is saved, yet her doctrine is so wrong it’s almost scary to listen too. In fact it is scary. She has now progressed to the ‘enlightenment’ stage where she honestly thinks she has power and can command things ‘in the name of Jesus’ and they happen. Funny thing is, they don’t happen but she believes they are happening. She is totally convinced she is saved and therefore secure, but she is not secure because she is not really saved – if she was she would not be tangled in the web of occult-christianity. She has the ‘Kobus van Rensburg’ mentality – she is immortal and wont die.

  37. Grant C says:

    Deborah

    I am with you on this one, but as I tried to say but maybe not clearly, is that I think, after hearing his “Heiligmaking” sermon, that he agrees with our point. That is that only the genuinely saved will go heaven, not those with false salvation – they are lost still and cannot “grow” into salvation.

    In other words he says the genuinely saved will be secure, but it is a good idea to grow in sanctification (the knowledge of God by His Word, that is, not necessarily the cessation of sin because that will be aided by the true salvation, as you point out). The growth in sanctification he refers to, is not to enable us to hold onto our heavenly prospects, but to present ourselves more worthy when we are judged to determine our rewards in heaven.

    He is saying the truly saved (those who bought genuine, not fake, tickets) are going to the eternal game. A valid ticket will remain valid. Which seat we get at the eternal game depends on how well we love the game once are in the stadium.

    Am I making more sense? I think, however, we need to determine which was the more recent publication, the article which we have determined was incorrect, or the sermon which in which I feel he puts across the correct message, differently to the article.

  38. Deborah (Discerning the World) says:

    Grant

    No you never make any sense ever lol 😉 Nah of course you do haha. I have been meaning to contact Prof Malan to ask him to maybe update his article – this will be a very good thing for him to do. Can you contact him? *pretty please*

  39. Grant C says:

    Deborah

    Will do. May take a little bitty time…

  40. Jonathan says:

    Hi

    I have been reading Hebrews and was wondering from the context whether the sin in 10:26 was not the specific sin of returning to the Jewish sacrificial cult. So I did a search and found your page. I was wondering if there were any critical commentaries which support our view? WBC does not even mention “returning to Judaism” as a possible interpretation nor does NICNT, which I found a bit shocking. NIGTC gets closer but does not say it outright.

    Anyway, I would appreciate any scholarly references you used which you could share. While I have from time to time concluded that an interpretation is correct even if no well versed scholars seem to see it, it always makes me nervous.

    Blessings,

    Jonathan

  41. Deborah (Discerning the World) says:

    Jonathan

    I have been reading Hebrews and was wondering from the context whether the sin in 10:26 was not the specific sin of returning to the Jewish sacrificial cult.

    No, that’s not correct. Read it again. I will post it below:

    Hebrews 10
    Christ’s Sacrifice Once for All
    1The law is only a shadow of the good things that are coming—not the realities themselves. For this reason it can never, by the same sacrifices repeated endlessly year after year, make perfect those who draw near to worship. 2If it could, would they not have stopped being offered? For the worshipers would have been cleansed once for all, and would no longer have felt guilty for their sins. 3But those sacrifices are an annual reminder of sins, 4because it is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins.
    5Therefore, when Christ came into the world, he said:
    “Sacrifice and offering you did not desire,
    but a body you prepared for me;
    6with burnt offerings and sin offerings
    you were not pleased.
    7Then I said, ‘Here I am—it is written about me in the scroll—
    I have come to do your will, O God.’ “8First he said, “Sacrifices and offerings, burnt offerings and sin offerings you did not desire, nor were you pleased with them” (although the law required them to be made). 9Then he said, “Here I am, I have come to do your will.” He sets aside the first to establish the second. 10And by that will, we have been made holy through the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

    11Day after day every priest stands and performs his religious duties; again and again he offers the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins. 12But when this priest had offered for all time one sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God. 13Since that time he waits for his enemies to be made his footstool, 14because by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy.

    15The Holy Spirit also testifies to us about this. First he says:
    16″This is the covenant I will make with them
    after that time, says the Lord.
    I will put my laws in their hearts,
    and I will write them on their minds.”17Then he adds:
    “Their sins and lawless acts
    I will remember no more.”18And where these have been forgiven, there is no longer any sacrifice for sin. 19Therefore, brothers, since we have confidence to enter the Most Holy Place by the blood of Jesus, 20by a new and living way opened for us through the curtain, that is, his body, 21and since we have a great priest over the house of God, 22let us draw near to God with a sincere heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled to cleanse us from a guilty conscience and having our bodies washed with pure water. 23Let us hold unswervingly to the hope we profess, for he who promised is faithful. 24And let us consider how we may spur one another on toward love and good deeds. 25Let us not give up meeting together, as some are in the habit of doing, but let us encourage one another—and all the more as you see the Day approaching.

    26If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, 27but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God. 28Anyone who rejected the law of Moses died without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29How much more severely do you think a man deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God under foot, who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified him, and who has insulted the Spirit of grace? 30For we know him who said, “It is mine to avenge; I will repay,”and again, “The Lord will judge his people.” 31It is a dreadful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

    There are a few things being spoken about here.
    1) The law in the OT (the old covenant) – Jews had to sacrifice over and over and over again to have their sins forgiven.
    2) Then the explanation of the the prophecy written in the scrolls of a sacrifice that would come (Jesus Christ the Son of God) that would be a once off sacrifice for those who believed in Him.
    3) Jesus them came to fullfill the law (a new covenant- a new way of living) – the law was then written into the hearts of man as the Holy Spirit now abides in a born again Christian.

    Now your verse: 26 If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, 27but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God.

    This is for people who have heard the truth but still don’t want to come to accept Jesus Christ. ‘Receiving the knowledge of the truth’ does in no way imply they were actually saved. They heard it, they sat in church, they then outright rejected Christ after hearing the truth. I think many pastors fall into this category. It’s got nothing to do with going back to Jewish sacrifice. A born again Christian will not continue to deliberately sin because of the conviction of the Holy Spirit in their lives. A person who has heard the truth but yet carries on deliberately sinning might get to a point where they become so depraved and wicked and hateful towards God’s Son Jesus Christ who He gave as a sacrifice for us, that they cut themselves off from God or God cut’s them off (because He knows their hearts wont change) and God WILL deal with them with vengence – because vengence is His. We also have to include here that no know knows the heart of man except for God. And just because a man sits in jail for murder does not mean he can not come to be saved. Judgement is for God alone.

  42. Alan says:

    Hi All,

    I have to say that I believe that we have freedom of choice to choose to accept Jesus’ sacrifice for our sins. There is no other way to be saved. We cannot add to that perfect gift of God, in ANY way.
    That said, I still believe that a person could choose to desert their salvation. Before you all shoot me with marshmallows or other soft confectionary, let me just run through the reasons why.

    First of all, we do have freedom to choose. We can choose to obey Jesus’ commands, or not. If we choose not obey, we will be deceived by the false teachers and stray from the truth.
    Matthew 24:11-12 says; “And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many. And because iniquity shall abound, the love (AGAPE) of many shall wax cold.”
    Jesus says quite plainly here that because of the deception of the false prophets and the fact that many allow themselves to forget His warnings, iniquity will abound and that will cause many to lose their agape love for one another. The next verse has a comfort for those who ENDURE to the end; that they will be saved. This is not talking about works being a means of salvation, but that you don’t despair of your only hope of salvation, Jesus’ sacrifice.

    As I said in my earlier post, if there is no way we can be deceived into turning away from the Lord and His grace and love, then why is there so much teaching in the NT warning us not to be deceived?
    I had someone say to me once that I could never be deceived, because I am saved and therefore I can’t be deceived into losing my salvation. I was encouraged by that, but I find it doesn’t quite fit, because, once again; WHY did Jesus and every other teacher in the New Testament warn us not to be deceived? If we’re safe, we don’t have to worry about it. That means then, that all these warnings are to those who are not saved and are therefore unable to ‘hear’ or ‘see’ what the Spirit is saying through the Word of God, so, again it’s wasted effort. Those who are saved don’t need the warning, those who aren’t really saved won’t heed it, so we are almost being Calvinist here. (JUST KIDDING, DON”T STONE ME YET!)

    In II Peter 2:20-22, we have the following; “For if they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the KNOWLEDGE of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning. For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have KNOWN it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.”
    The words in capitals are rendered in the Greek section of Strong’s concordance as; epignosis (knowledge) and ; epignosko (known), which have the following meaning(s);
    epignosis:- recognition, i.e. (by impl.) full discernment, acknowledgement
    epignosko:- to know upon some mark, i.e. recognise; by impl. to become fully acquainted with, to acknowledge;-(ac,have,take) know (-ledge, well), perceive.

    If you follow the notes by epignosko, you will find that the prefix ‘epi’, has several meanings listed, which all add weight to the point I’m making here, that these people are clearly seen by the text as people who KNOW the way of righteousness, not just people who have heard some preaching.

    Further to that, we have II Thessalonians 2:3 says; ” …except there come a FALLING away first,…”
    The word ‘falling’ is ‘apostasia’, which Strong’s renders thus;

    apostasia, of the same as 647; defection from truth (prop. the state) [“apostasy”]:-falling away, forsake. 647 is; apostasion, which has as it’s primary meaning a bill of divorce.
    As you will agree, you cannot get divorced, unless you have been married, so this is a very strong indication that we are looking at really born again Christians here, not ‘Churchianites’ to coin a word.
    (You like that one? You can use it anytime)

    One more, in Hebrews 12, the author (probably Paul, but we don’t know for sure) talks in verse 1, of us laying aside the ‘…sin which doth so easily beset us…”, then goes on to talk of the Lord ‘chastening us and how, although it’s unpleasant, it shows God’s love for us as well as our sonship. Then in verse 14, we are told to follow peace and holiness, (into v.15) “Looking diligently, lest any man fail of the grace of God; lest any root of bitterness springing up trouble you, and thereby many be defiled;” and in Heb 2:1-3, we are warned against letting the things we have heard slip, because; “…every transgression and disobedience received a just recompense of reward; How shall we escape, if we NEGLECT so great salvation;…” The word ‘neglect’ is telling us again that we need to be watchful that we don’t take Jesus for granted.

    To sum up, I don’t believe that anything can cause God to change His mind and reject us, but I do believe that we can come to a point of rejecting Him if we allow ourselves to be deceived to the point where we cease to love the truth as passionately as He does.

    Someone (I think it was you Deb) in a post on another part of this website mentioned the parable of the wise and the foolish virgins and how the foolish ones were like not really saved because they didn’t have oil, which speaks of the Holy Spirit, but the text clearly says that they ALL had oil to start with, the foolish ones just didn’t carry any spare. I think they are like the people Jesus spoke of who begin to build or go to war without counting the cost. I don’t believe we ever stop counting the cost. God promises that we will be able to endure anything we encounter by way of testing. We can either believe it, or not.

    I should go and sleep, I’ve been awake for way too many hours, so please excuse me cutting this short here. I know that we need to guard against the idea of us ‘doing’ something towards our salvation, but
    even ‘believing’ could be called doing something. That is ALL we are required to do though, repent and believe that Jesus has paid the price for our sin.

    God Bless,
    Alan.

  43. Burning Lamp says:

    Alan,although I appreciate your comments and there is no doubt of your sincerity, I believe you are approaching this from the human perspective rather than God’s. When we receive Christ we are accepted in the Beloved. God knew at that moment that we might be challenged in our faith and could possibly doubt God at some point. Why would He accept us into the Beloved and His Body if He knew we would come to a point of discouragement that led to unbelief? Of course He would not.

    Has He abandoned His covenant with Israel because of their rebellion and unbelief? Obviously not. God upholds His end of the covenant whether it be with Israel or the New Covenant with believers. We are adopted into His family. Does He disown one of His children just because that child is a brat and becomes disobedient? He is faithful even when we are not.

    We are sealed when we are saved. This seal is put upon us by God. We have no power to break that seal. That seems pretty simple to me.

    Rebellious children will be disciplined. If one is not disciplined, they are not a child. There are consequences for rebellion. Israel will have to go through a horrible time as a result of their rebellion and rejection of their Messiah. Christians who don’t live for the Lord will suffer a horrible loss or lack of rewards at the Bema Seat. There will be tears of sorrow and regret when there are no crowns to offer to the Lord Who bled and died for us. But after that, the Lord will dry those tears and invite all into the joys of heaven.

    There is scripture to support all of this. Grace is grace from beginning to end for the true born-again believer. Anything we do for the Lord is to His glory, not ours. There are many reasons why a Christian may become discouraged in their faith – circumstances, trials and being deceived into false teaching. God’s promises are above all that. Only God knows the genuine from the counterfeit. That will all be revealed in the judgments.

    With the belief that one can lose one’s salvation if one crosses over an imaginary line robs many of their joy and promotes a works mentality. We rely totally on the grace and mercy of God.

  44. Alan says:

    Hi BL,

    First off, yes, I am looking at this from a human perspective. I’m a human you know. 😉
    (Just a little humour, to keep us all smiling.) (I hope.)

    I know we can try to look at things from God’s perspective, but we can’t ever really do that, because we just don’t experience things the way He does and I doubt that we ever will. I know that we’ll see Him face to face and we’ll see things clearer, etc, but we’ll never actually BE God and we’ll never be equal to God (In your face Benny) (Sorry, I don’t know how to write raspberries!) 😉
    So we have to look at things from our perspective a lot of the time, which is why God has graciously written things in ways that we can relate to. A lot of the time.

    I think the last two sentences you wrote deserve a comment. Or two.

    IF we think of having to PERFORM to keep on God’s ‘good side’, then yes, that’s a works mentality and will bring us under the judgement of the Law.
    I notice that all the current heresies such as; PDL, Contemplative Prayer, Labyrinth walks, Prayer of Jabez, etc, ALL promote works of some kind as necessary to addition to, or even replacement of grace.
    The warnings of Jesus, Paul, Peter, James, John, and Jude, (I think that’s all of ’em, if I missed one, I apologize), all tell us to be careful we are not deceived by the false teachers that we see abounding in the Church today and to keep to the purity of the faith once delivered to the saints, which is; by grace we are saved, not by works, lest any man should boast.

    Now if we are NOT careful to love the truth, we will be deceived into thinking that we need to DO things to keep our salvation intact. If we ARE careful to love the truth (that salvation is NOT by works, but by grace), we WON”T be deceived. These warnings about deception are absolutely pointless if there is no chance of a TRULY SAVED person being deceived, because if they are aimed at people who are NOT truly saved, they are deceived already and will never be able to even see that they’re deceived, because they can only realise that truth by the power of the Holy Spirit, which they don’t have, because they’re not saved. (I need to sit still for a minute to stop my head spinning!)

    Do you see what I’m getting at? Why would Jesus (He is the one speaking all through the NT, even in the epistles of Paul, Peter, etc,) go to the trouble of warning us if we can’t be deceived? Or why would He go to the trouble of warning those who aren’t saved or ever going to be? Both ways the warnings are pointless.

    Now, as to God’s covenant’s with Israel, YES, I agree that God will uphold the Covenant’s, in-spite of the behaviour of the majority of His chosen people. However, this does NOT mean that ALL Israelites go to Heaven. What makes the difference? As Moses said first, then Paul repeated later, quoting him; only those circumcised in their HEART as well as in their flesh are the ones who will be justified.
    I’m constantly battling two ideas that people have about Israel (the people); They’re still God’s chosen people (correct) so they’ll be saved without Jesus,so we don’t need to preach the Gospel to them (incorrect), or more commonly, they’re forever cursed because they rejected the Messiah, Jesus Christ, so we shouldn’t preach the Gospel to them, because it’s a waste of time (Totally incorrect). AGGH! (much tearing of hair in frustration!)

    David broke every law going just about, but he was called a man after God’s own heart because he realised always that salvation is by grace alone, never by works. He attributes this to his constantly meditating on the Word of God many times in the Psalms. Does this mean that David’s delight in the Law of the Lord was counted as some kind of ‘works’ that gained him favour with God? NO WAY! Rather, this habit he had of meditating on the Word of the Lord and hiding it away in his heart, kept him always mindful of the fact that it’s by God’s mercy that we are brought to repentance and by His grace that we are not consumed. It also kept him mindful of the fact that there was NOTHING he could do to earn salvation.
    We are told a million times (Poetic hyperbole, please don’t shoot!) throughout the Bible from one end to the other to listen to the Word of the Lord, because there is LIFE, whereas to ignore it, is DEATH. Does this mean we are then saving ourselves by works when we read God’s Word? Memorize it? Study it? Concentrate on it with all our faculties, so as to know the TRUTH and by it be set free? Of course not!

    However, we DO get lax at times and take the Word of God for granted.
    Sometimes we even deliberately avoid the Word of God, because we know that the Word will show us something within ourselves we would rather not acknowledge. We know that if we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins. If we don’t read the Word of God and look in the mirror it holds up to our lives, we can sometimes go for a while without confessing this or that sin. We do things we know we shouldn’t do, then we try and ignore the issue by not praying and not reading the Word. God then disciplines us. It’s not pleasant.
    I know very well how unpleasant it is, but I thank God for His disciplinary works in my life. They are indeed a blessing and an assurance that He loves me. Of course Positive Confession wolves would say that these things are because of a lack of faith, or some such nonsense.
    (Positive confession my EYE!)
    However, I also know that I could, if I chose, refuse to pick up my cross and carry it one day, or refuse to die daily, but the words of Peter ring in my ears; “Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life.”, so I choose to humble myself again, and die to self again, and pick up my cross again. Isn’t this why God disciplines us? To correct us? To make us conform more and more to the image of Jesus Christ.

    Jesus said that if we love Him, we’ll obey His commandments. Yes it’s true that we can only do that by His power, but we still have to step out of the boat in faith. Peter didn’t walk on the water by his own ‘works’, Jesus’ power gave him the ability of course, but Peter still had to step out of the boat and take the steps that he did manage before losing sight of his Lord and panicking. He was doing fine as long as he looked at Jesus whose power kept him from sinking. As soon as he looked down, he ‘realised’ that he couldn’t walk on water, so he started to sink. He started to add ‘works’ to the mix and down he went!
    However, he at least got to experience something the others didn’t, because he listened to what Jesus said and obeyed the command to “come”. His ability was not contingent on his obedience in the sense that it was the empowering factor in his water walking jaunt, but it was in the sense that if he hadn’t obeyed, Jesus’ power to make him able to walk on the water would’ve been absolutely useless to him.

    In the same way, our obedience doesn’t save us, because that would be works, but we if don’t obey, then Jesus’ power to help us obey will be of no use to us whatsoever. We have a choice on whether or not we are going to obey Him. As I pointed out above, II Peter 2:20-22 makes it quite clear that the people he’s talking about are ones who have been saved by knowing the Lord, something that cannot be done without the working of the Holy Spirit in their heart. They have then “returned” to the pollutions of the world and become entangled therein. Peter then finishes with the comment that it would’ve been better for them “…not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they had known it, to turn from the holy commandment…” This can’t possibly refer to people who’ve never been saved, or it makes the words meaningless. Peter’s (or the Holy Spirit’s) repetition of the words; ‘knowledge’ and; ‘known’, emphasize the depth of ‘knowledge’ being spoken of.

    If these were people who’d never been saved, then they couldn’t return to a worse condition than when they started.

    How could you possibly be more worse off than to be unsaved?

    Again I want to say that I absolutely deny the concept of any kind of works based salvation and state absolutely that salvation is by grace alone, through faith alone, in Jesus Christ alone.

    All God’s grace and blessings be on you and your house,
    Alan.

  45. Burning Lamp says:

    Hi Alan,

    I think we are mostly on the same page.

    You said:
    I know we can try to look at things from God’s perspective, but we can’t ever really do that, because we just don’t experience things the way He does and I doubt that we ever will.

    I would take exception to this however. The Bible and the Holy Spirit give us God’s perspective. Yes, we now see through a glass darkly and many things our finite mind cannot comprehend, but the Bible gives us enough insight to have some inkling of the nature of God and His attributes.

    As I said, I think we are in agreement more than not. You do seem to believe in the eternal security of the believer unless I missed something. We cannot earn our salvation and we cannot keep it. It is all God’s mercy and grace. The reason so many Christians are not living victoriously is because they don’t grasp this great truth and all the wonderful riches at our disposal in the heavenlies. The book of Ephesians is a treasure trove of precious gems that are ours now and in the future. This knowledge should motivate us to serve and please our Lord Who has done so much for us and when we fail it should drive us to our knees in confession and repentance. Grace is not a license to sin and God will not tolerate it. David paid dearly for his sins in heartbreaking consequences, but God honored his contrite attitude. Grace and peace to you brother!

  46. Burning Lamp says:

    P.S. Alan, we totally agree on the false teachers and the deception. Of course, that is why this website exists – deception is escalating in these last days and more and more formerly solid teachers are falling away into error and taking their devotees with them. False teachers are coming out in droves to deceive the undiscerning. Most turn a deaf ear to the warnings of the watchers. Christians can be deceived. But that does not mean they lose their salvation. I was once deceived and am not arrogant enough to believe that I could be deceived again. But I try to be vigilant as the Bible instructs. Many Christians have a false belief about righteous judging and that this is proper and biblical.
    Blessings!

  47. Burning Lamp says:

    Oops – I meant not arrogant enough to believe that I could NOT be deceived. Humility is key!

  48. Alan says:

    B L,

    God bless you my brother! I grasped your true meaning of course.

    Shalom,
    Alan.

  49. Jorrie says:

    I have given myself to Christ at a young age. Then during my early adult life became entangled in sin and addiction. My life became sin, repent, sin. I struggle to overcome my addiction. Has Christ foresaken me? I know I am lost without him.

  50. Valerie says:

    Jorrie,

    No, Christ has not forsaken you just because you are struggling.

    Press on trusting in His righteousness that comes only by faith, ( having faith is the same thing as believing and trusting). Don’t trust in your own strength. The desire to be free from your addiction is an indication of the conviction of the Holy Spirit.

    I know in my own life there have been stuggles with certain types of sin that in the beginning felt like I was fighting in the flesh and of course I would fail. But as I continued to persevere in wanting to please God and and desiring to resist temptation, I have found that I no longer struggle with them. I can’t even tell you the moment I was set free, but this one thing I can testify to, is that when the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed.

    I still have issues that I struggle with since we are all still in this body of death, but I know without a doubt that one day I will be totally free from sin. I continue to fight the good fight of faith knowing that whether I am set free of my stuggle before or after He comes to take me home, I indeed will be free one day.

    I will pray for you that you would be strong and resist temptation and cry out for God’s grace to strengthen you. The spirit is willing but the flesh is weak.

  51. Alan says:

    Hi Jorrie,

    I have a similar life story to you. One thing I know for sure, if you feel the need and desire to repent, then you are for sure being moved by the Holy Spirit. This is absolutely a proof that you are saved, because unsaved people don’t care about their sins. Worse than that, they don’t even recognise them AS sins. So be encouraged, the Lord is continuing to work in you. Keep looking to Him to do all that you cannot, because as Paul said; His strength is made perfect in weakness. As I still tell my grown up kids, read your Bible and pray everyday and you’ll grow, grow, grow, is a children’s chorus that contains absolutely the best advice for a Christian. It’s simple, but profoundly true.
    His Word is LIFE and as we pray and ask Him to teach us as we read it, He, through His Word, transforms us into His likeness.
    I pray that the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God our Father, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit will be with you, (II Cor. 13:14 paraphrased)
    In Jesus’ name.

  52. Grant says:

    Hi Jorrie

    I commend and second both Valerie and Alan’s good advice and stance above. What they are making very clear here, is that the Lord God is a loving and forgiving God. The freedom in which we can freely partake in Jesus is truly the only real lasting freedom, both in this life and in eternity.

    Now, as I don’t know you and certainly will not judge you, as I would be subjecting myself to that same judgement, the following small cautions I would like to make is only in addition and complimentary to the comments of our brother and sister above. It is also caution I hope to try to heed myself, being the weak sinner I will remain.

    Because God is a forgiving God and salvation is a gift from God, we are warned to not grieve the Holy Spirit. If you believe you are truly saved, then you believe that the Holy Spirit lives within you and that is the most precious thing you will ever have.

    Picture the terrible sadness in the person of the Holy Spirit every time you give in to your addiction. Imagine the untold hurt and grief, that the most forgiving and omniscient God feels, when we push His gift back in unthankfulness by sinning. Remember that we are saved by His Grace, not because we deserved it, but because He loves us way more than we can ever repay, even if we are really good. Remember how very fortunate we are to be able to exchange a mere seventy or so years of relative obedience in appreciation for the gift of escaping an eternity in excruciating burning flames. For ever and ever with no one to hear your screams and apologies!

    Furthermore, true repentance is sincere, tangible, tearfully real deep sorrow. That is the repentance we should be feeling every time we lose our way, because that is not even a little bit close to the sadness we can cause in the Holy Spirit.

    I firmly hold to the teaching that our salvation is eternally secure as effectively detailed by David Cloud’s article here. Our interpretation of Scripture and our Faith leads us to this conclusion. Consider for a moment the consequences if we are wrong?

    Furthermore, we need to pause for a further moment to ask ourselves, if we truly believe that we are saved, would we commit the same sin over and over and grieve the Holy Spirit more every time?

    Peace, strength and perseverance to you, my dear brother!

  53. Burning Lamp says:

    Valerie, Alan and Grant, I echo your loving and caring exhortations and words of encouragement to Jorrie. So well put. I pray that the Lord will use these Spirit-led words to uplift this dear brother/sister – not sure of the gender as not familiar with the name.

    When one member of the Body struggles, we all share in the burden.

  54. Amanda says:

    Jorrie

    My life became sin, repent, sin.

    As you can gather from the excellent comments above, we are all familiar with that pattern. The Apostle Paul wrote:

    So the law is holy, and the commandment is holy and righteous and good. Did that which is good, then, bring death to me? By no means! It was sin, producing death in me through what is good, in order that sin might be shown to be sin, and through the commandment might become sinful beyond measure. For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am of the flesh, sold under sin. I do not understand my own actions. For I do not do what I want, but I do the very thing I hate. Now if I do what I do not want, I agree with the law, that it is good. So now it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells within me. For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh. For I have the desire to do what is right, but not the ability to carry it out. For I do not do the good I want, but the evil I do not want is what I keep on doing. Now if I do what I do not want, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells within me. So I find it to be a law that when I want to do right, evil lies close at hand. For I delight in the law of God, in my inner being, but I see in my members another law waging war against the law of my mind and making me captive to the law of sin that dwells in my members. Wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, I myself serve the law of God with my mind, but with my flesh I serve the law of sin.
    (Rom 7:12-25)

    Even Paul could not cut it!

    Jorrie, if you keep your eyes only on the Law and yourself, you will despair. You need the Law to convict you of your sin and you need to hear the Gospel daily to receive forgiveness for your sin. Find good sermons that leave you with the Gospel ringing in your ears. Failing that, preach it to yourself. Daily. The Law is written on our hearts and we intuitively understand sin, judgment and punishment. But the Gospel has to be preached again and again, because we forget and revert back to Law only.

    Yes, Jorrie, you are a miserable sinner indeed. The only thing you contribute towards your salvation is your sin. Jesus Christ was nailed on the cross for your sin. He who knew no sin took your punishment so that you might be saved from the wrath of God. Keep your eyes on Jesus Christ, your Lord and Savior. As you learn more about Him, your love will increase and you will hate your sin more. Feed on the Word. It was written for sinners.

    For while we were still weak, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly. For one will scarcely die for a righteous person–though perhaps for a good person one would dare even to die– but God shows his love for us in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. Since, therefore, we have now been justified by his blood, much more shall we be saved by him from the wrath of God. For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, now that we are reconciled, shall we be saved by his life. More than that, we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.
    (Rom 5:6-11)

    Refuse to listen to preachers who will only give you the Law and mostly man made law of self-improvement and how to live your best life now. You need God’s Law and the Gospel of Jesus Christ daily. Take care that you get it.

  55. Grant says:

    Jorrie

    Would you be so kind as to visit and talk to us here once in a while. We would love to hear from you and share with you!

  56. Burning Lamp says:

    Yes, Jorrie, please know that this is a safe place and that there are people here who genuinely care about you and won’t lead you astray. May the Lord guide and protect you.

  57. Valerie says:

    Great comments Alan, Grant, Burning Lamp and Amanda.

    Thanks for your input and Godly advice to Jorrie. I was so encouraged in my own walk by reading your precious comments. It never gets old does it?

  58. Jorrie says:

    Thank you very much for your responses. Where sin has made me fearful your comments and references to the Word gave me comfort again. It is good to know that you are not in the struggle alone.

  59. Grant C says:

    Look to Jesus, place everything, your whole life in His hands, you certainly won’t make progress in the struggle against sin alone. Know now that you will never be alone and place it firmly in your mind. Thank you for coming back to us. Please don’t be scarce, we are really good listeners and sometimes we are not too bad at talking as well!!

    Blessings to you!

  60. oranges says:

    If you got to the point where you curse God (or Jesus) but repent of it and later feel extreme guilt, were you ever saved or not?

    I am still young of age (barely adult age), and am confused beyond belief.
    So many have told me salvation can be lost, while others tell me it is eternal.
    It has gotten to the point where at a time I felt suicidal (because of the extreme guilt of certain sins), sought help, but now have nightmarish reoccurring nightmares about it.

    I also ask because I know of a handful of people who proclaim to be Christians, but their sins are so carnal I dare not even write them. However I ask of the same question about God’s name in vain, in regards to the Bible. In which one had made a false proclamation about the Bible, but later rebuked said claim.

    Thank you in advance if anyone reads and replies. 🙂

  61. Deborah (Discerning the World) says:

    oranges

    I think you have nothing to worry about. This extreme guilt is called the Holy Spirit convicting you. And by you asking Jesus to forgive you, you have obeyed Jesus, which is right were you want to be. If you did not repent or still refuse to repent I would say that you have a serious problem.

    So go away with joy in your heart oranges that you have the Holy Spirit in your life. Understand this, when you ask Jesus for forgiveness ONCE, you are forgiven, slate is wiped clean, spotless, as white as snow.

    If you only knew what I did before I was saved Oranges, but I had to lay my life bare before Jesus and ask for forgiveness. Understand that God loves His children. You are saved, if you love Jesus with all your heart as it seems you do.

    Currently Satan is having a bit of a go at you trying to convince you that your sin is stuck to you like glue and that Jesus can’t even look at you. Well Jesus is holding you tight right now, telling you that you are forgiven and that now you need to look to the future, look to Him and to Him only.

    Tell you what oranges, go read this article, get on your knees, ask Jesus for forgiveness for everything in your past one more time, cry your heart out, and then rejoice in the joy, happiness and peace that it is to be born again 🙂

    PS, the nightmares are nothing more than the devil playing games with you. Understand that forgiveness from Jesus is wonderful… in fact I don’t even have words to describe His love.

    Yay!

  62. Paul says:

    Hi Oranges. Deborah is right.

    I would like to point out to you the difference between Xtians and Christians. The former are the Christian Establishment who profess to be Christians but are full of deceit. Christians on the other hand, are the Church of the Messiah and who are “Saved”. try to ignore xtians and keep your eyes upon Jesus and his Holy Spirit will reveal truth to you and guide you, do not concern yourself with what people do and say.

    I will pray for you.

  63. wayne arant says:

    I WAS SAVED IN 1962 DURING
    THE CUBAN MISSLE CRISIS. I got involved with christians
    who believe in losing your salvation and a second filling of the spirit, speaking in tonges. I felt a type of bondage to myself that no matter what I did it may not be enough for God to grant me eternal life. There was a first and second class christian. Those that had received the holy spirit, speaking in tounges and those who had sin in their life trying to erradicate the sin to receive the holy spirit. I new there was something very wrong with this theology. It offered no peace and no joy, never resting in the grace of God in Jesus christ that your sins are forgiven and you have a place in heaven.
    This went on for at least 6
    years, until i learned the real truth. And that is you
    have nothing to do with staying getting saved or staying saved. Its a gift from God when you exercise faith in christ. Ephesians
    2:8-9. Yo become his child
    you remain his childm whether obediednt or disobedient. You receive rewards for good works and chastening for unconfessed sin and bad works. yet you are forever his child.

    God Bless

  64. Burning Lamp says:

    Wayne, thx 4 your testimony and praise
    Good you were delivered from this false belief system and now have the peace of knowing you are secure. And I would imagine that you do good works because you love the Lord and want to serve Him and don’t abuse His grace because you want to honor Him. That is how God intends and now you have true peace.

  65. Myfanwy Brown says:

    Hi Debs,

    Watch this and post it if you want to..

  66. Myfanwy Brown says:

    Debs, I really like listening to this guy since I found him on youtube. This is another good video sermon on the subject.

  67. Carolyn says:

    Debs, I skimmed the article and read through most of the comments. I agree with Alan’s comments in 43 and 45. I think we are mostly saying the same thing in a slightly different way. So I’m not going to pick up the discussion again at this time. Thanks for pointing me in this direction. YT