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Freemasonry and the Dutch Reformed Church – Part 1

Freemasonry and the Dutch Reformed Church - Part 1
Dutch Reformed Church Wolmaransstad - Freemason Obelisk

Dutch Reformed Church Wolmaransstad, Western Cape, South Africa and a Freemason Obelisk

Freemasonry and the Dutch Reformed Church

The following articles outlines the history of Freemasonry in the world and in particular South Africa; including it’s huge influence in the Dutch Reformed Church, the Afrikaner Broederbond and the building of the Voortrekker National Monument to name a few things.

Secret Societies Control the Rise and Fall of Empires

by Renette Vermeulen from Unbanned bible publications (permission received to publish)

Contents

  • 1) A FREEMASON’S DEFENSE
  • 2) ‘NOBLE FREEMASONS’ OCCUPY EVERY SIGNIFICANT SPHERE
  • 3) MASONS ARE NEW-AGERS, RACISTS, EVOLUTIONISTS, COMMUNISTS
  • 4) THE MASONIC PLAN IN ACTION
    • a. The religious Paradigm Shift
    • b. The Political Shift

1) A FREEMASON’S DEFENSE

I include the following because John wrote in Jn. 7:51, “the law does not judge a man before it hears him and knows what he is doing.”

In defense of freemasonry, Jim Treshner, Director of the Masonic Leadership Institute, 33rd degree Scottish Rite of Freemasonry, discusses Masonry “calmly and factually” to “separate needless attacks on victimized Masons.  Adversaries of masonry do not ask a knowledgeable mason for clarification… they simply read books written by anti-masons…”

Threshner insists that masonry is an honorable society that harbors no secrets, harmful rituals, or evil intentions.  He says it is NOT a religion, nor a persecutor of Christianity – on the contrary, it respects ALL religions.  He says Albert Pike’s book, ‘Morals and Dogma,’ is not masonic dogma.  Pike’s statement “Yes, we worship a god…  Lucifer is god…” were merely “taken out of context” to smear freemasons.

Treshner also states that King Phillip of France, in AD 1307, confiscated the vast treasures of the masonic Knights Templar, [the military monks of the Catholic church, who supposedly ‘guarded’ pilgrimages to the Holy Land,] and tortured them until they confessed that they worship Baphomet.  “The confession as well as the meaning of the name Baphomet was misquoted,” he alleges, “as it was merely a term for Mohammed in the Middle Ages, not a demon.  These lies were spread by anti-masonic writers…”

So, is Treshner saying that the Knights Templar worships Mohammed and not Satan?

What nonsense!

Shockingly, Constance Cumbey also alleges in her book, ‘A Planned Deception,’ which no Jewish conspiracy, controlling Jewish monetary system or powerful society such as the Cabalist Sanhedrin exists in the world.  She declares, “Such allegations are merely Hitlerism, which is anti-Semitism, occult traps designed to pit one target group against another…  Freemasonry functioned then [during Hitler’s reign,] as it does now, as a sort of occult whipping boy…  Paul, also an object of occult hatred, summed it up well when he told the early Christians to ‘Boast not against the branches…’”

We all know that God forbids anti-Semitism.

Nevertheless, Cabalist and other Masonic Powers, their incredibly destructive beliefs, and their evil influences on both politics and religion, are sure realities.  God commanded us to TEST EVERYTHING in the light of His Word, the Bible, to reject what is false and then to hold on to what is good, (1 Ths. 5:21.)

God also commanded us to expose evil, false Christian doctrine, and false Christian leaders especially.  Eph. 5:11-17, “Have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness but rather expose them…  See then that you walk circumspectly, not as fools but as wise, redeeming the time, because the days are evil…  Understand what the will of the Lord is…”

2) ‘NOBLE FREEMASONS’ OCCUPY EVERY SIGNIFICANT SPHERE

While Hitler’s persecution on the lower ranks of freemasonry might have been a scapegoat to cover his ties with Skull and Bones and other secret societies, as well as the crypto Jewish blood in his own veins, there is still nothing innocent or free about freemasonry.  Serious scholars of the Bible, historians, and those who have knowledge of masonic doctrine know that, even if Treshner’s and Cumbey’s defense of freemasonry (and Zionist-masonic Jews) holds water, it still cannot be a coincidence that we find ‘noble’ masons, Jewish or otherwise, occupying and influencing nearly every significant sphere of life.  More importantly, the long-term political and religious fruit, which these masons bear, are simply horrendous!

McLoud wrote in ‘Actors in the Last Act,’ The masonic creed of the 3rd degree states, “If a brother discloses any of our secrets… even if a minister of the church pray in the Name of Christ in any of our meetings, you must be ready… to slit his throat from side to side, pluck his tongue out at the roots…  The Cabalist Jew, Jacob Falk … stands alone in his generation because of his knowledge of the holy mysteries…  Falk was in contact with Frank, Mendelssohn, Rothschild, and Adam Weishaupt.”  Lucien Wolf confirmed, “[For centuries] these Cabalist Jews have been furnishing money and information to insurgents, army contractors, and they became loan-mongers and super-spies…  The Rothschild Dynasty has been making loans not to individuals, but to kings and presidents…”

The reason why anti-masonic writers do not ask “a knowledgeable mason for information,” is that all masons were sworn to silence.  They will always lie about their secretive religion.

Even if Jim Treshner could defend Albert Pike’s declaration that “Lucifer [and Baphomet,] is god…” he cannot deny that in the ritual of exultation, (as early as the 4th degree,) the name of the Great Architect of the Universe, Baphomet, is revealed to the master mason as Jahbulon.  Stephen Knight explained, “Jahbulon is a precise designation that describes a specific supernatural being – a compound deity composed of three separate personalities fused into one,” – and this name signifies the unholy trinity of Satan.

Freemasony-Jahbulon-the-god-of-the-masonic-lodg

The name of the Great Architect of the Universe, Jahbulon, the god of the masonic lodge, is revealed to the master mason first.  ‘High’ masons know him as Baphomet, the goat-god of lust and power.

3) MASONS ARE NEW-AGERS, RACISTS, EVOLUTIONISTS, COMMUNISTS

In her book, Constance Cumbey focuses solely on the New Age Theosophical Society, (a common anti-cult-mistake,) omitting the other societies that are behind the ills of this world.  All secret societies, however, are linked.  Cabalists, Illuminists, Freemasons, Bonesmen, etc., are all inherently committed to the imperialist spirit of evolution, communism, and the New Age.

Although freemasons, for instance, proclaim Lucifer as god, the core of their religion still  centers on the theory of evolution, which is the belief that a ‘big bang’ formed the universe, and that all living things accidentally ‘evolved’ from a single cell which came to life “all by itself.”

However, the false anti-God, antichrist, anti-creation theory of evolution, which is actually New Agereligion, goes way beyond the ridiculous idea that humans evolved into superior animals!

All New-Agers, freemasons, communists, and evolutionists ‘build bridges’ or ‘network’ with other occult organizations through their central belief in humanism.  The core of humanism teaches that humans have ‘evolved’ to become a ‘superior animal-species,’ therefore, ‘all we (self-creators) are gods, who simply have to realize that the christ-consciousness lives in every one of us.  As soon as we humans realize that we are gods, we will begin to evolve spiritually, until we realize that collectively, the human species itself is God.’

‘Networking’ means that societies must ‘link’ with the worldwide web of ‘cells,’ or secret societies, and work together to bring “The Global [New Age] Vision” into being.  The Global Vision means that collectively, those humans, who had eventually evolved into ‘god,’ must bring the New Age Masonic christ, the ultimate spiritual evolutionist, to his global throne.  Ethan Allen Hitchcock, a Rosicrucian mason, worked with Albert Pike of freemasonry’s Scottish rite towards The New Age/Communist ‘Plan’ to unify the entire world under the rule of ‘the christ.’

Undoubtedly, ‘the christ’ is the head of masonic doctrine globally.

All other members of this ‘scientific’ School of Spiritual Research, (like Lenin and Trotsky of Russia; Herman Hess of Germany and so on,) all adhered to the communist Plan of Global Rule, as proclaimed by the Tibetan Masters, the powerful spirits that controlled Hitler.  [Read the article, ‘Weird Truth about Nazism.’]

Hitler and Carl Jung, the founder of Analytical Psychology, also attended this satanic ‘school.’

Consequently, Hitler believed himself to be ‘the christ,’ the ‘matreya,’ and ‘avatar,’ (or the embodiment of ‘the christ’ spirit,) the ultimate spiritual evolutionist, who had to ascend to his global throne.  So did Napoleon, Stalin, and many others.

‘The Plan’ includes making ‘academically acceptable’ the teaching that, in a Communist Paradise of complete desolation, the New World Order will bring ‘order from chaos’ through the ‘networking’ of its many secret societies.

It is important to note that all these ‘god men’ are also extreme racists, as we will see in the next part of this book.

4) THE MASONIC PLAN IN ACTION

a. The religious Paradigm Shift

To achieve The Communist Plan of totalitarian world domination, there must be a PARADIGM SHIFT in religious thought, especially in Biblical faith, executed through communism’s Socialist Christian Wing, which had already infiltrated all the structures of Christianity.  As frequently revealed on TBN, this ‘Paradigm Shift’ is the ‘sound doctrine’ behind Kingdom-Now theologians of all denominations.

This popular phrase means the following, and it is based on the false doctrines of the ‘One Man Antichrist,’ ‘Israeli Timeline,’ and ‘Pre-tribulation Rapture.’  [Read about the origins of these doctrines in the e-book, ‘The Old and New Apostolic Churches Revised.’] —[ DTWnote: we do not agree with this statement.]

Although not openly declared in paradigm churches, “The Paradigm Shift” actually means a ‘shift’ in Biblical faith.  Biblical faith consists of belief in the entirety of Biblical Scripture – which is the essence and truth of God Himself, revealed to humanity.  However, according the ‘paradigm shift’ doctrine, Biblical faith is the “Old Paradigm.”  The Old Paradigm consists of the belief that “God is the Creator of the universe, that the salvation of man rests solely in the completed atonement of the Lord Jesus Christ in his place, and that this earth is destined for fire,” as heaven is the eternal home of the sincerely saved in Jesus Christ.  Now, this Old Paradigm must ‘Shift’ to the New Paradigm, which is the masonic belief that “life on earth evolved without the Creator,” that heaven and God’s SPIRITUAL Kingdom on earth are “myths, and that the christ of the Kingdom-Now theology, backed by the Planetary Rulers, the Tibetan Masters of the Universe, will be the Saviour of humankind and all creation.”  Once this religious ‘shift’ has taken place on a global scale, this strange christ will then rule his New Age Civilization, the new communist paradise, his heaven on earth, in global ‘peace and prosperity,’ (1 Ths. 5:1-6.)

Inside church - freemason obelisc                      Freemasony - obelisc Durch Reformed church - tower

ABOVE, From Left to Right:

  1. The obelisk or ‘Babylonian Tower’ is the pagan symbol of phallic and sun worship!  In pagan (Babylonian) culture, (AS IN FREEMASONRY AND ALL OTHER MASONIC ORDERS,) the sun god or fertility god Baal, (Lucifer or Satan,) and the phallus, (male reproductive organ,) have always been revered as ‘the givers of life.’
  2. In ALL Christian denominations, the church tower has always been, and always will be a symbol of freemasonry sun worship in the church.
  3. An obelisk in a church signifies masonic/phallic/Lucifarian worship.

GOD FORBADE SUCH IDOLATRY IN BOTH THE OLD AND THE NEW TESTAMENTS! – 2 Kings 10:26-27; 1 Cor. 10:14-22. 

b.  The Political Shift

Working closely with their religious counterparts, politically motivated New Age communists also declare The Paradigm Shift, which consists of a global, political ‘change.’

The Political Paradigm Shift is The Global Shift from so-called capitalism to communism through the implementation of socialism, terrorism, and the fanatical so-called ‘passive’-resistance chaos of Mahatma Gandhi.

Incidentally, Gandhi’s ‘peaceful’ marches always erupt in violent protests, riots, and bomb blasts; resulting in the slaughter of thousands upon thousands of innocent bystanders.  However, those surrendered to The Shift know that the fulfillment of The Plan has a price tag attached.  That means, “Inevitably, there will be casualties of war.  [Of course, these innocent bystanders are simply disposable ‘cannon fodder.’]  All initiates must fanatically surrender the ‘self’ in order to suffer and die for the ultimate communist cause!”  Communistically brainwashed martyrs like suicide bombers and ‘freedom fighting’ terrorists are therefore unstoppable and unreachable in their destructive quest for totalitarian rule of the world, which clarifies the admirable motivation of terrorists like Nelson Mandela who paid the ‘price’ of spending 26 years in prison to become the first black, communist president of the ‘new’ South Africa.

source:  http://www.unbannedbiblepublications.com/index_files/Page37109.htm


 Continue to read here: arrow  5) THE DISARMAMENT OF THE WORLD  (PART 2)

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42 comments to Freemasonry and the Dutch Reformed Church – Part 1

  • Ben

    Do you believe that the pre-tribulation rapture is a false doctrine? Or is this not your quote?
    “This popular phrase means the following, and it is based on the false doctrines of the ‘One Man Antichrist,’ ‘Israeli Timeline,’ and ‘Pre-tribulation Rapture.’ ”
    I am just asking for clarification. Thanks.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Ben

    Oh my word, I didn’t even see that. Thank you for pointing it out and asking us. I have made a note next to that statement that DTW does not agree with it. This article is not written by us.

  • Ben

    Oh, good. I was about to look back at previous blog posts to see where you may have announced the changing of your belief. Thank God. :) I will continue reading…. Thanks.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Ben

    Oh no, no changes I promise. Sorry for that. I got a bit of a shock when I saw it.

  • Fran

    The article on freemasonry was informative. I have heard that the Dutch Reformed Church supported free-masonry and also legalism. Reformed churches mix the Old and New Covenants in a ‘Covenantal’ theology instead of a New Covenant theology.

    Ben mentioned the pre-tribulation rapture so I thought I’d make a comment. This was contrived a few centuries ago by 2 Catholic Jesuit monks who wrote a book under a different name and presented it to unsuspecting protestant churchmen who embraced the teachings. John Darby and Schofield were involved in this theology. Zionist Jews were behind this deception which is not scriptural.

    There are Christians being persecuted for their faith now and for the past 2000 years. Why would Western ‘Christians’ avoid persecution and be raptured when the Apostles and millions of persecuted Christians have suffered so terribly?

    It is the spoilt Western way of thinking which wants to avoid persecution at all costs so many folk in America and other Western countries have bought into this.

  • Fran wrote:

    Ben mentioned the pre-tribulation rapture so I thought I’d make a comment. This was contrived a few centuries ago by 2 Catholic Jesuit monks who wrote a book under a different name and presented it to unsuspecting protestant churchmen who embraced the teachings. John Darby and Schofield were involved in this theology. Zionist Jews were behind this deception which is not scriptural.

    This is old hat; it’s an old argument that holds no water. Read here and here.

    Surely, you must believe that Jesus is coming back sometime. If you don’t, you are probably not saved. Nonetheless, answer me the following questions.

    How can Christ come immediately following unmistakable signs which are intended to warn of His coming and at the same time come as a thief in the night when few if any of His followers would expect Him?

    How can He come “when they say peace and safety” (1 Thessalonians 5:3) and at the same time come in the midst of Armageddon, the most destructive war the world has ever known?

    How can the saints be caught up from earth to heaven to dwell with Christ eternally and at the same time come with Him from heaven to execute judgment upon this earth?

    How can two scenarios that are so contrary to one another both be true? There is only one possible answer to these questions. Obviously, these diametrically contradictory descriptions of His coming cannot refer to the same event.

    You wrote:

    There are Christians being persecuted for their faith now and for the past 2000 years. Why would Western ‘Christians’ avoid persecution and be raptured when the Apostles and millions of persecuted Christians have suffered so terribly?

    It is the spoilt Western way of thinking which wants to avoid persecution at all costs so many folk in America and other Western countries have bought into this.

    Jesus promised: “Because you have kept my word about patient endurance, I will keep you from the hour of trial that is coming on the whole world, to try those who dwell on the earth.” (Rev 3:10).

    There is a vast difference between the persecution of the saints and the wrath of God. There are countless passages in Scripture that describe the tribulation as a time of the wrath and indignation of God. At any rate, those who are going to be persecuted and beheaded during the tribulation are the ones who are still unsaved and will not be caught up at the Rapture. However, many are going to be saved during the tribulation. They will refuse to take the mark of the beast (666) and as a consequence be executed by beheading.

    The enemies of the Pre-Trib Rapture do NOT love Jesus Christ’s appearing. They are deceived and need to repent.

    Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing. (2 Ti 4:8)

    There will be precious little saints alive and remaining at his Second Coming for them to love his appearing then. Those who will be alive at his Second Coming are going to cry out –

    And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand? (Rev 6:15-17)

    Most tribulation saints will already be in heaven under the altar crying out –

    And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled. (Rev 6:9-11).

    When you diligently study Jesus Christ’s parousia you cannot but see that there are several differences between the Rapture and his Second Coming.

    Trying to be boastful and macho about persecution is not going to help you understand the Pre-Trib Rapture.

  • Fran

    Thomas,

    The scriptures, early church fathers, or reformers never mentioned pre-millennial dispensationalism. It is mainly an American fundamentalist theology.

    Armageddon is not a literal war. It is symbolic of the destruction of the wicked at the judgement of the Second Coming of Christ. The Lord will destroy them on the earth.

    The Tribulation has already occurred in 70AD with the destruction of the temple by the Romans. Jesus predicted it in Matthew 24.

    Those saints who were mentioned in Rev. 20:4, 6:9-11 are symbolic of saints who were martyred by beheading in the first century.

    The ‘rapture’ is a word not mentioned in scripture. The saints living on earth will meet the Lord in the air at the Second Coming.

    I was not being boastful or macho but simply pointed out that there are persecutions world wide. The Lord promised persecutions for His people. Some people groups are persecuted more than others. When saints in every nation are being persecuted then the Lord’s return is imminent.

    I am not macho as I am a woman.

  • Fran wrote:

    Thomas,
    The scriptures, early church fathers, or reformers never mentioned pre-millennial dispensationalism. It is mainly an American fundamentalist theology.

    I’m not too sure you know your church history.

    Paul of Tarsus describes the Rapture in 1 Corinthians 15:51-58 and 1 Thessalonians 4:14-18.

    Jesus alluded to the Rapture in John 14:1-4.

    Centuries before John Darby and the existence of the USA. Ephraem the Syrian wrote in AD 373.

    “For all the saints and Elect of God are gathered, prior to the Tribulation that is to come, and are taken to the Lord lest they see the confusion that is to overwhelm the world because of our sins” (On the Last Times, the Antichrist, and the End of the World, by Ephraem the Syrian, A.D. 373).

    Dr. John Gill, a famous eighteenth-century Baptist theologian, published his commentary on the New Testament in 1748. In his commentary on I Thessalonians 4:15-17, Dr. Gill points out that Paul is teaching a doctrine that is “something new and extraordinary.” Gill calls the imminent translation of the saints “the rapture” and calls for watchfulness because “it will be sudden, and unknown before-hand, and when least thought of and expected.” This is a clear, detailed 1748 teaching on the imminent pre- Tribulation Rapture (80 years prior to John Darby in 1830).

    Irenaeus (130 A.D. – 202 AD) a bishop of the church in Lyons, France wrote in Against Heresies 5.29,

    “Those nations however, who did not of themselves raise up their eyes unto heaven, nor returned thanks to their Maker, nor wished to behold the light of truth, but who were like blind mice concealed in the depths of ignorance, the word justly reckons “as waste water from a sink, and as the turning-weight of a balance — in fact, as nothing;”(1) so far useful and serviceable to the just, as stubble conduces towards the growth of the wheat, and its straw, by means of combustion, serves for working gold. And therefore, when in the end the Church shall be suddenly caught up from this,/strong>, it is said, “There shall be tribulation such as has not been since the beginning, neither shall be.”(2) For this is the last contest of the righteous, in which, when they overcome they are crowned with incorruption.”

    Cyprian (200 AD – 258 AD) In Treatises of Cyprian he wrote in describing the end times Great Tribulation:

    “We who see that terrible things have begun, and know that still more terrible things are imminent, may regard it as the greatest advantage to depart from it as quickly as possible. Do you not give God thanks, do you not congratulate yourself, that by an early departure you are taken away, and delivered from the shipwrecks and disasters that are imminent? Let us greet the day which assigns each of us to his own home, which snatches us hence, and sets us free from the snares of the world and restores us to paradise and the kingdom.”

    These quotes are ample proof that some of the early church fathers taught a Pre-Trib Rapture long before John Darby and the birth of America.

    Why is it important to teach the doctrine of the pre-Tribulation Rapture? The apostle Peter warned that many people would challenge our Lord’s promise of His second coming in the last days. “Knowing this first; that scoffers will come in the last days, walking according to their own lusts, and saying, ‘Where is the promise of His coming?’ (2 Pet. 3:3-4).

    You wrote:

    Armageddon is not a literal war. It is symbolic of the destruction of the wicked at the judgement of the Second Coming of Christ. The Lord will destroy them on the earth.

    If Armageddon is symbolic then the nations God is going to bring against Jerusalem to punish them for the treatment of his people and the dividing of his land, are also symbolic. You don’t have much faith in God’s integrity and intelligence to think that He only works with symbolism in some of the most important events in history. Beware lest you begin to interpret Jesus Christ’s death, burial and resurrection also merely as symbolic.

    For, behold, in those days, and in that time, when I shall bring again the captivity of Judah and Jerusalem, I will also gather all nations, and will bring them down into the valley of Jehoshaphat, and will plead with them there for my people and for my heritage Israel, whom they have scattered among the nations, and parted my land. (Joel 3:1-2)

    You really must have a big imagination to be able to allegorize Jerusalem and the nations in the end-time. Jude says:

    And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints, To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him. (Jude 1:14-15)

    Please point out to me what is symbolic and what is literal in this passage.

    You wrote:

    The Tribulation has already occurred in 70AD with the destruction of the temple by the Romans. Jesus predicted it in Matthew 24.

    Indeed, Jesus predicted the destruction of the Jewish temple in 70 AD. However the rest of his teaching pertains to things that are going to occur in the end time. Verse 29 affirms this:

    Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. (Matthew 4:29-31)

    None of this happened in 70AD. In fact, the Jews (God’s elect) were not gathered in 70AD; they were scattered/dispersed throughout the world. Neither did the Son of man come in the clouds. Jesus said the tribulation will be a unique occurrence which has never happened in the past and will never happen again. Do you really think the extermination of the Jews and the destruction of their temple in 70AD was any worse than the holocaust when Nazi Germany murdered more than 6 million Jews?

    You wrote:

    Those saints who were mentioned in Rev. 20:4, 6:9-11 are symbolic of saints who were martyred by beheading in the first century.

    And of course, verses 1, 2 and 3 of Revelation 20 are also just symbolic of the 1000 year reign of Jesus Christ on the earth and the binding of Satan in the abyss? Oh, of course we are already living in the symbolic 1000 years reign of Christ on earth. OK, I challenge you to visit South Africa’s well-known Kruger National Park, leave the safety of your car and approach a pride of lions with a notice written in big fat letters hanging around your neck: “Here kitty, kitty. Remember you and I are already living in the symbolic 1000 years reign of Christ. Therefore you may not eat me.”

    You wrote:

    The ‘rapture’ is a word not mentioned in scripture. The saints living on earth will meet the Lord in the air at the Second Coming.

    So, what does that prove? The word “Trinity” never once appears in Scripture. Does that make the Trinity non-existent? The word “harpazo” (caught up which means to take by force) appears in 1 Thessalonians 4:17.

    You wrote:

    I was not being boastful or macho but simply pointed out that there are persecutions world wide. The Lord promised persecutions for His people. Some people groups are persecuted more than others. When saints in every nation are being persecuted then the Lord’s return is imminent.

    Saints have been persecuted in every nation since the beginning.

    Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: for great is your reward in heaven: for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you. (Matthew 5:12).

    You wrote:

    I am not macho as I am a woman.

    I used the word generically to describe bravery, assertiveness, inordinate nerve and heroism.

  • Fran

    Thomas,

    The 1 Thessalonians, 1 Corinthians and John quotation are about Christians being caught up in the air to be with Christ at the Second Coming. It is not called the rapture in the bible. It is Harpazo- caught up.

    It was John Darby and others who started up this theology in the 1800’s. He was working with Jewish Zionists who paid him well for his support. Schofield wrote a bible which has been widely criticised as heretical. Regardless of what Ephraem the Syrian wrote it wasn’t until the 1800’s that this theology took hold in the US.

    Irenaeus and Cyprian were wrong as the Tribulation Jesus spoke about was in 70AD. Although, there will always be tribulation for the saints of God.

    I don’t think of Jesus death, burial and resurrection as symbolic. I never have and never will. I don’t know where you got that from. I said the book of Revelation was symbolic. God sent and signified it by His angel.

    The Joel quote has been fulfilled. All of the OT covenants to the Jews have been fulfilled. God will not punish people for dividing the land of Israel as God doesn’t need the land of Israel any more. He only needed it till Christ was crucified and the NT church started. Then the temple was destroyed to show that the OT covenant was obsolete.

    The stars falling from Heaven and the sun shall be darkened and the moon not giving its light is symbolic of new covenants and destruction. God has used these terms in the Old Testament to describe the destruction of Israel by Babylon and other nations.

    Christians, God’s elect escaped from Jerusalem to Pella in 70 AD. The Jews were scattered and many taken captive or killed by the Romans. A remnant escaped and their descendants still live in Palestine.

    The destruction of Jerusalem was so awful it could be worse that the holocaust even though the number of people who perished might have been a million and the holocaust was 6 million. The horrors were just as bad but the death toll was less. Read Josephus’ account of the destruction of Jerusalem. It was a terrible event…

    It doesn’t say in Revelation 20:4 that ‘they lived and reigned with Christ on EARTH for a 1000 years.’ Just that ‘They reigned with Christ for a 1000 years.’ Christ’s church and the receiving of the Holy Spirit began with Pentecost. Some may say with His death, resurrection or ascension. Jesus brought in the Church age of the gospel, a New covenant. This is the Kingdom of God.

    They only way to God is through Christ, not by calling unbelieving Jews elect and helping Israel as an earthly state.

    The statement about the lions is a bit silly.

    If you believe that Saints have been persecuted in every nation since the beginning why would you believe that God would ‘rapture’ some believers. It wouldn’t be fair to all the Christians who have and are being persecuted if a group of them managed to escape by a secret rapture.

    You said I was trying to be macho and boastful which sounded a bit snide to me.

  • Fran,

    The statement about the lions is a bit silly.

    Indeed, it is silly and I am pleased to see you realize this. It is silly because you believe you are already in a symbolic 1000 years.

    You wrote:

    The destruction of Jerusalem was so awful it could be worse that the holocaust even though the number of people who perished might have been a million and the holocaust was 6 million. The horrors were just as bad but the death toll was less. Read Josephus’ account of the destruction of Jerusalem. It was a terrible event…

    Jesus said:

    For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. (Mat 24:21)

    By your own admission you agree that the horrors of 70AD were just as bad as the holocaust although the death toll in 70 AD was less. You are countering and denying what Jesus taught in Matthew 24:21. If 70AD was just as bad as the holocaust then Jesus lied.

    Look, I really don’t have the time to repeat things you refuse to understand.

    If the saints are not going to reign with Christ on earth during the millennium where are they going to reign – in heaven? Over Whom are they going to reign in heaven?

    Your view of the end time snides the teaching of Jesus in Matthew 24 which is much worse than your perception of me ridiculing you.
    You wrote:

    They only way to God is through Christ, not by calling unbelieving Jews elect and helping Israel as an earthly state.

    Are you denying that God calls his people, the Jews, his elect? (Romans 11:28).

    Look, if you prefer to snide the Rapture, that’s your choice but don’t twist Scripture to fit your strange views on symbolism and one of the most important events on God’s calendar – the Rapture.

    I won’t be responding to your comments again.

  • Fran

    http://www.preteristarchive.com/StudyArchive/l/lightfoot-john.html

    This shows the Old and New Testament symbolism. When Christ made the Matthew 24:21 statement He was using forceful language which is common in the scriptures. Jesus wasn’t a liar.

    Romans 11:28 refers to Jews being eventually converted to Christianity because they are beloved for the sake of the fathers.

    God’s people are Christians. Not unbelieving Jews or Gentiles. Everyone who is ELECT has to be a Christian.

    It is obvious that you continue to believe in this Zionist heresy which is an insult to Christ and His church.

  • Fran,

    You are not listening and neither do you believe what Scripture teaches. Romans 11:28 very clearly says the Jews are God’s elect despite the fact that they are enemies of the cross. In any case God calls the entire nation of Israel his elect.

    For Jacob my servant’s sake, and Israel mine elect, I have even called thee by thy name: I have surnamed thee, though thou hast not known me. (Isa 45:4)

    You say you are not a Calvinist. Then you should know that election in the Bible is never unto salvation but always unto service. Judas was also one of Jesus Christ elect whom He had chosen to serve Him as one of his disciples. You are the one who is insulting Jesus Christ and his church because you believe He is unable to keep his promises to Israel.

  • Fran,

    No, Jesus is not a liar but you are making Him a liar.

    If, as you assert, the tribulation occurred in 70 AD and Matthew 42:21 is merely forceful language whhich is common in the Scriptures, then surely Matthew 24:21 must refer to 70AD. Is Matthew 24:21 merely a symbol of what happened in 70AD.

  • Fran

    http://www.christnotes.org/commentary.php?b=23&c=45&com=mhc

    Commentary on Isaiah 45

    The Chapter is about God calling Cyrus even though Cyrus hadn’t known God. God defends Israel and prophesies about the future Christ. Israel as a nation was elect under the Old Covenant.(even though not every person was saved)

    The scripture teaches that they are beloved for the fathers sake. Because of God’s love of the prophets He will bring Jews back to Him by salvation after the Gentiles have been saved. Listen carefully… There is no other road to God except by faith in Christ. There are no duel covenants. Not one for the Jews and one for Christians. You do not believe what the scripture teaches.

    Even though Jesus wept over Jerusalem He also called the Jewish religious leaders the synagogue of Satan.

    Haven’t you considered that very few Christians outside the USA believe this with the exception of a few early church fathers that you mentioned. Even they didn’t believe in defending Israel as a political and geographic nation.

    I never said I wasn’t a Calvinist. Where did you get that from? I would prefer to be called a Spurgeonist if anything. Election is unto salvation but Christians are also convicted to do good works by the Holy Spirit.

  • Fran wrote:

    Commentary on Isaiah 45

    The Chapter is about God calling Cyrus even though Cyrus hadn’t known God. God defends Israel and prophesies about the future Christ. Israel as a nation was elect under the Old Covenant.(even though not every person was saved)

    That’s a load of nonsense. Paul writes in the NEW TESTAMENT that Israel is God’s elect because God’s calling and election is irrevocable.

    I never said there is another road except through faith in Christ or that there are two covenants – one for the Gentiles and one for the Jews. You say these things because you misunderstand the meaning of election. Once again, there is no such thing as election unto salvation. It is always unto service. And once again, even Judas was chosen by the Lord but he is in hell.

    You’re a Calvinist? That says it all. The majority – in biblical terms – never ratifies a truth.

  • Fran,

    http://www.thebereancall.org/content/september-2013-extra-understanding-christian-zionism

    Note the concluding paragraph of the above article.

    Although Christian Zionists cast those who deny Israel’s future restoration in the role of the “stay-at-home son” (Luke:15:11-32), they insist that it is not on the basis of merit that God is restoring Israel “but because He is a covenant-keeping Sovereign who has regard for His own reputation.” In the words of Dave Hunt, “God’s integrity is tied to Israel.” This inextricable link between the honour of God’s Name and the restoration of the Jews to the Land is highlighted in the following biblical prophecy:

    Therefore say to the house of Israel, “Thus says the Lord GOD: I do not do this for your sake, O house of Israel, but for My holy name’s sake, which you have profaned among the nations wherever you went. And I will sanctify My great name, which has been profaned among the nations, which you have profaned in their midst; and the nations shall know that I am the LORD,” says the Lord GOD, “when I am hallowed in you before their eyes.” (Ezekiel:36:22-23)

    If, as supersessionists believe, the Abrahamic Covenant was conditional, then , according to George Peters, “everything else is conditional; then the foundations of Christian hope crumble away beneath us, and nothing stable remains.” In other words, if Israel has been rejected by God and replaced by the church because of her failures, “can it not be equally argued that the Church has miserably failed God also?”

    Calvinism in particular, has failed God. Read here.

  • Fran

    Thomas,

    That is a very peculiar article. God has honoured his covenants to Israel. All of His promises have been fulfilled including the sending of the Messiah who was promised through the prophets.

    The church was NOT a replacement because of the failures of the Israelites to keep any covenant. The church was planned before the earth was created. The whole of the OT with its rules and regulations is a shadow of things to come. Christ is the reality. All of the prophets alluded to Christ in their prophecies in one way or another.

    Christ’s death and resurrection is what all of history is about. There is no failure in any of God’s plans. The true church are the eklesia (called out ones) regardless of being Calvinist or Arminian. They are the true church of Christ. We all have our failings but God knows His own children and will uphold us till the end. Churchianity has failed God with its man-made laws and legalism but true believers do not fail God.

    Dave Hunt and George Peters seem more interested in the Jews than in the gospel. Our duty is to support bible believing Christians first and then unbelievers in mission work. Is anyone preaching the gospel to Jews in Israel or other parts of the world?

    The Honour of God’s name is Christ.

  • Fran wrote:

    That is a very peculiar article. God has honoured his covenants to Israel. All of His promises have been fulfilled including the sending of the Messiah who was promised through the prophets

    It is a peculiar article to you because amillennialists cannot fathom or understand the promises of God to Israel (not the church). So, the only option you have is to allegorize everything that pertain to Israel. You say there is no such thing as Replacement Theology but you keep on suggesting that the church replaced Israel. What kind of reasoning is that?

    Can’t you see that God’s integrity, his reliability and his character of being just and true to Himself to make good his promises to Israel is at stake here? Why can’t you understand Romans 11:29 where it says that God’s gifts and calling are irrevocable? He will NEVER rescind his promises to Israel because his Holy Name will be blasphemed among the unbelievers if He fails. like you are doing right now. When God vowed to destroy Israel completely when they sinned against Him in the wilderness, Moses prayed thus:

    And the LORD said to Moses, “I have seen this people, and behold, it is a stiff-necked people. Now therefore let me alone, that my wrath may burn hot against them and I may consume them, in order that I may make a great nation of you.” But Moses implored the LORD his God and said, “O LORD, why does your wrath burn hot against your people, whom you have brought out of the land of Egypt with great power and with a mighty hand? Why should the Egyptians say, ‘With evil intent did he bring them out, to kill them in the mountains and to consume them from the face of the earth’? Turn from your burning anger and relent from this disaster against your people. Remember Abraham, Isaac, and Israel, your servants, to whom you swore by your own self, and said to them, ‘I will multiply your offspring as the stars of heaven, and all this land that I have promised I will give to your offspring, and they shall inherit it forever.'” (Exodus 32:9-13).

    Moses was concerned for God’s integrity and what others may have said about Him if He were to fail in bringing his people to their Promised Land which He had given to them and them alone as an everlasting possession. Moses’ prayer is still valid to this very day. If God should fail to bring the scattered twelve tribes of Israel back to their Promised Land, He would be a failure, a liar and a cheat which seems to be what you are saying.

    Your problem is when you hear the word Israel, you only see Old Covenant, sacrifices, Ten Commandments etc. This is NOT what it’s about. God is going to make a New Covenant with Israel and the house of Judah (twelve tribes) when He returns at his Second Coming, subsequent to the seven year tribulation and prior to the millennium of peace on earth. (Jeremiah 31:31; Romans 11:27). Yes, Jesus Christ has already ratified the New Covenant in his blood but Israel as a nation has of yet not benefited from it because of their stubbornness. Why? Because their eyes have been judiciously blinded for the sake of the Gentiles. (Romans 11:5-12). Even you conceded that “The scripture teaches that they are beloved for the fathers sake. Because of God’s love of the prophets He will bring Jews back to Him by salvation after the Gentiles have been saved.” If they are going to be saved AFTER the Gentiles have been saved, it follows that He is going to make a New Covenant with them AFTER the Gentiles have been saved. (Romans 11:26).

    I also quoted to you Ezekiel 36:22-23. You cannot possibly apply the promises in this chapter to the church. It pertains to the nation of Israel and her only. Since when was the land of Israel promised to the church? That’s ridiculous! Furthermore, since when does the church need to be cleansed when she has already been cleansed? It is impossible to read the church into Ezekiel and many other similar passages in the OT.

    I can assure you that Dave Hunt did more to bring the Gospel to the Jews than you could ever dream of doing because he knew and understood the promises of God to Israel as a nation. God commanded us to remind Him of his promises in Isaiah 62:6. You cannot do it because you do not believe his promises to Jerusalem and the Jews.

    Indeed “The Honour of God’s name is Christ” in whose Name all promises are yeah and amen, also for the Jews. (2 Corinthians 1:20).

  • Fran

    You are the one who is blaspheming God. I didn’t say the church replaced Israel. God planned the church before He created the world. He has already fulfilled His covenant in Christ. Most Jews rejected it.

    The tribulation was in 70 AD which is clear from Matthew 24.

    Those Jews that are to be saved before the second coming will be saved by faith and will live eternally like any other Christian.

    I do believe God’s promises to the Jews. They have been fulfilled by Christ’s death upon the cross. The second coming and the Gentiles and Jews who are yet to be saved is still in the future.

    The Ezekiel passage was directed to the nation of Israel. A lot of passages are about the nation of Israel in the bible but most of the ones you have quoted are prophecies about Christ.

    The land of Israel wasn’t promised to the church. It was only for the Israelites under the old covenant. Since the church is made up of Gentiles from all over the world, the church has no need of the land of Israel. The Christian Jews were dispersed and settled in other parts of the world.

    The words ‘everlasting’ or ‘forever’ come from the Greek word Aion which means an age. The age of the old covenant has been fulfilled.

    I do not want to continue with this argument as it is clear you believe in heretical doctrines which most of the Christian church believes to be false.

  • Fran wrote:

    I do not want to continue with this argument as it is clear you believe in heretical doctrines which most of the Christian church believes to be false.

    I agree! You are welcome to stop commenting here. I really don’t think anyone is going to miss your heretic wisdom.

    If the church you belong to teaches you that “Aion” means “an age” and not “eternity” or “everlasting,” then the Kingdom of God is not eternal and neither is hell (2 Peter 1:11).

  • Fran wrote:

    I do believe God’s promises to the Jews. They have been fulfilled by Christ’s death upon the cross. The second coming and the Gentiles and Jews who are yet to be saved is still in the future.

    If the Jews who are yet unsaved are going to be saved in the future how could their salvation have been fulfilled in Jesus Christ on the cross?

    Oh, but of course, as a Calvinist you believe the cross saves you automatically when you are an elect.

    You don’t believe in Replacement Theology but you do in Fulfillment Theology which is just as heretical as Replacement Theology.

    Read here and here.

  • Fran

    I read the links. Enough said.

    The only way anyone can be saved is through faith in Christ. Because the death and resurrection of Christ on Calvary is the only way to salvation for those who put their trust in Him.

    Christ is the fulfillment of OT prophecies. There is no other way of salvation for people who lived 2000 years ago or for those who will accept Christ as their saviour in the future. (Jew or Gentile)

    Your comments are ridiculous and not biblical. I really do not want to continue this argument any further.

  • Fran,

    Have I ever said or even suggested that there are other ways of being saved besides through faith in Jesus Christ? You yourself said that the Jews are going to be saved through faith alone in Jesus Christ AFTER the salvation of the Gentiles. Indeed, that will happen when Christ returns at his Second Coming to the earth (not the Rapture). Even Old Testament Jews were saved through faith alone in Jesus Christ. So what’s your point?

    If you no longer want to continue this discussion, why are you still commenting here?

    Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away. For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts, Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth. Now as Jannes and Jambres withstood Moses, so do these also resist the truth: men of corrupt minds, reprobate concerning the faith. (2 Ti 3:5-8)

  • Fran

    I commented to let you know I wanted to end the discussion.

    You still commented even after I said I didn’t want to argue any further.

    I am only commenting now because you compared me with those ‘silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts.’ You wrote EVER LEARNING, AND NEVER ABLE TO COME TO THE KNOWLEDGE OF THE TRUTH in bold letters.

    You are grasping at straws as I am not immoral and I have come to the knowledge of the truth. That is slander as you don’t know me. I am 66 so hardly fit the bill.

  • Fran,

    The word “empithumia” does not always refer to sexual lusts. It also means to desire or to follow after things that are forbidden. A desire to follow false doctrines is foridden and therefore also an “epithumia.”

    In Revelation 18:4 “eputhumia” describes the lust for wealth.

    In 1 John 2:16 and 17 “epithumia” denotes covetousness – desire for power, self-aggrandizement, high esteem and the likes.

    In Titus 3:3 the word “epithumia” refers to vearoius kinds of desires and pleasures – a desire for entertainment such as dancing or gambling, smoking, or whatever satisfies the flesh.

    In 2 Timothy 2:22 Paul warns Timothy against the passions or desires of the young – impatience, intolerance, self-assertion. Therefore, Paul did not have sexual desires in mind here.

    In 1 Timothy 6:9 “empithumia” describes a craving for money and wealth. A craving for money causes people to wander from the faith.

    Women in particular are prone to emotionalism and most of today’s false teachers prey on women who have the desire to be treated as though they are something special. They are told “Christ died for you because you are beautiful and worthy of his love.”

    You have a desire for false doctrine (Calvinism is one of the most dangerous false doctrines there are). The result is that false teachers prey on you because you have a desire (“epithumia”) to learn from them in stead of from God’s Word. You are forerver learning from them and never coming to the knowledge of the truth.

    Lusting after false doctrine is one of the most dangerous desires there are. It is even worse and more dangerous than sexual lusts.

    I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom; Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine. For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts (“epithumia”) shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears. (2 Ti 4:1-3).

  • one link refers to a person learning the pretrib not from darby or scofield but the bible. No, that person learned it from a person who taught from the Bible according to what they’d been taught it meant and that person’s teacher got it from someone who got it from darby. Also in the Scofield bible things are put in the margins as if part of the bible itself and they aren’t.

    Jesus comes as a thief in the night FROM THE PERSPECTIVE OF THE UNBELIEVERS WHO DO NOT EXPECT THIS, just as in Noah’s time no one expected the Flood but Noah. Matt. 24 Jesus says He comes back AFTER the tribulation. Daniel chapter 7 says the antichrist persecutes the saints until the Second Coming. 2 Thess. 2 says the antichrist will be destroyed by the brightness of Jesus’ coming back, and the rapture is nowhere taught as separate from this public second coming. Jesus WARNS AGAINST FALSE SECOND COMINGS do not go out to meet “jesus” in the desert or in some hidden place, He will come like the light dawns from east to west over the whole sky.

    you can’t get pretrib without twisting things and taking out of context. There is no historic precedent in church history for believing pretrib. one ancient writer was quoted out of context, but in context he is talking about the tribulation brought on earth for sins and elsewhere is explicitly post trib in terms of post antichrist’s persecution of the church. the saints ARE the church. church is assembly of Jesus Christ like a formal assembly of city citizens. no tribulation saints as distinct from the church. all this is tradition of men and fantasy.

  • thought has been bugging me for a while and came into focus while writing that….could the pretrib rapture lie be not some harmless error, but be setting some up for a fake rapture for a fake jesus, to be grabbed by demons or a cult to be killed or worse? notice Jesus warns to not go forth if told He is somewhere or other, and that some would come claiming to be Him. While most of this would relate to cults, maybe something more immediately dangerous and less easy to get out of is possible also.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Christine

    You say “could the pretrib rapture lie be not some harmless error, but be setting some up for a fake rapture for a fake jesus, to be grabbed by demons or a cult to be killed or worse?” A fake rapture? Please tell us how something like this would be pulled of?

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Chrisine

    >>> you can’t get pretrib without twisting things and taking out of context.

    Interesting that you say that, so please tell me where does the Bhema Seat of Christ, the wedding festival and Saints returning WITH Jesus to earth fit into your picture.

  • Christine (Justina) Erikson

    Please explain to me the meaning of Luke 12:36 with special reference to “when he will return FROM the wedding. To whom did He say this – his Bride?

    At any rate, Paul said that the Rapture of the dead in Christ and those who will still be alive will be changed to meet Him in the air in the twinkling of an eye. In Matthew 24 Jesus warns that those who are on the roof top or in the field should not return to their homes to take anything out of their houses but to flee to the mountains. Nothing is said about the dead in Christ. Now, why would He give this warning when the Rapture is an event that is going to happen in the twinkling of an eye? Surely, you don’t tell someone not to return to his home when they are going to be changed in a twinkling of an eye to meet Him in the air? There won’t be time to go to their houses to take anything out of their homes when they are going to be changed in the twinkling of an eye. And why would He warn someone to flee to the mountains when they are going to meet Him in the air? Matthew 24 does NOT describe the Rapture.

  • Christine (Justina) Erikson

    Deborah (Discerning the World) wrote:

    Christine
    You say “could the pretrib rapture lie be not some harmless error, but be setting some up for a fake rapture for a fake jesus, to be grabbed by demons or a cult to be killed or worse?” A fake rapture? Please tell us how something like this would be pulled of?

    real easy. already there have been people in 1844 a large group who sold all and went to some hill to wait the second coming and it didn’t happen, they went home okay, the russellites morphed into SDA and JW after that. but supposing some team had been waiting to kill them? or aliens in flying saucers to take them? or demons strong enough because of many blood sacrifices to kill them or take them into some parallel dimension?

    or people looking to kill Christians without anything unusual except some fake imagery perhaps and “He is in the desert” or “open the door to the messengers and go with them” and they end up in a concentration camp.

  • Christine (Justina) Erikson

    Deborah (Discerning the World) wrote:

    Chrisine
    >>> you can’t get pretrib without twisting things and taking out of context.
    Interesting that you say that, so please tell me where does the Bhema Seat of Christ, the wedding festival and Saints returning WITH Jesus to earth fit into your picture.

    The Judgement Seat of Christ is not at the Second Coming, Revelation is clear, the Last Judgement and the Wedding of the Lamb is after that. first the devil is fully bound, not just crippled like now, for a thousand years, then he is let loose to tempt the nations one more time, as a result of this there is a revolt against Jesus’ rule, which is put down, THEN the resurrection of all the dead and judgement, THEN the New Jerusalem comes down and the wedding of the Lamb.

    I don’t understand how people can read Revelation, and not see this, but if you rely on the traditions of men constructed out of bits and pieces of Scripture then you get confused.

    The Bhema or Judgement Seat and Wedding is NOT AT THE TIME OF THE SECOND COMING BUT AFTER THAT. over a thousand years after that. its real simple if you don’t try to write everything off as “spiritual” and not meaning what it says.

  • Christine (Justina) Erikson

    Tom (Discerning the World) wrote:

    Christine (Justina) Erikson
    Please explain to me the meaning of Luke 12:36 with special reference to “when he will return FROM the wedding. To whom did He say this – his Bride?

    ANSWER: the context is the answer to your question. He didn’t say this about the Bride or to her, He was talking about worthy vs. unworthy servants the latter in danger of wrath. He was talking to the Apostles and about those servants who are to feed other servants, the higher level servants in a household who manage the rest, so this is about the pastors and bishops.

    At any rate, Paul said that the Rapture of the dead in Christ and those who will still be alive will be changed to meet Him in the air in the twinkling of an eye. In Matthew 24 Jesus warns that those who are on the roof top or in the field should not return to their homes to take anything out of their houses but to flee to the mountains. Nothing is said about the dead in Christ. Now, why would He give this warning when the Rapture is an event that is going to happen in the twinkling of an eye?

    ANSWER again, you deal with some tiny point out of context. Paul said our transformation will be in the twinkling of an eye, instead of going through death and resurrection into the physical but immortal bodies, we will be transformed into them instantly while being caught up to meet Jesus in the air, where we stay with Him and remain with Him as He descends to earth to rule on earth after destroying the antichrist and his followers.

  • Believers and unbelievers are not going to be judged at the same time – at some time after the Second Coming of Christ, as you said.

    You said, “I don’t understand how people can read Revelation, and not see, but if you rely on the traditions of men . . . . you get confused.”

    It is quite obvious that you are the one who is confused. How can you not see and understand the meaning of Revelation 20 verses 4 and 5? These verses make it abundantly clear that the saints who will have been saved and beheaded during the seven year tribulation will be resurrected BEFORE the 1000 years to reign with Christ IN the Millennium ON EARTH (not in heaven because saints won’t have anyone to reign over in heaven. God alone reigns in heaven).

    Where does it say that these saints are going to be judged “NOT AT THE TIME OF THE SECOND COMING BUT AFTER THAT. over a thousand years after that”?

    Indeed, they are NOT going to be judged at the Second Coming of Christ. In fact, they are not going to be judged at all – not then and not over a thousand years after that. Why would God want to judge someone “OVER A THOUSAND YEARS AFTER THAT” when they had already reigned with Him for a thousand years? Their reign with Christ during the Millennium IS their reward and therefore they won’t need to be judged. In fact, they will be the ones doing the judgment in the Millennium together with Christ.

    Unbelievers (all of them and not a single believer whatsoever) are going to be judged AFTER the 1000 years of peace on earth. Can’t you see or understand what the little word “rest” means? It means that a certain group of people will already have been resurrected (those described in verse 4) and that the rest (the remaining dead) will only be judged AFTER the 1000 years. Can’t you see that?

    If, as you said, the judgment of believers and unbelievers as well as the wedding of the Lamb are going to take place – NOT AT THE TIME OF THE SECOND COMING BUT AFTER THAT, over a thousand years after that – what do you make of Luke 12:36? I asked you what this verse means but see that you conveniently ignored me. Let us look at it closely,

    “And ye yourselves like unto men that wait for their lord, when he will return FROM the wedding; that when he cometh and knocketh, they may open unto him immediately.”

    Now, unless He is going to be married by proxy in heaven while his Bride is still here on earth, we cannot possibly place the wedding AFTER the 1000 years on earth. It makes no sense. First of all, why would He warn someone to be ready so that they may open the door when He knocks when all things pertaining to the resurrection, judgement and so forth, had been fully completed? In fact, the very first verse of Revelation 21 (which follows chapter 20 chronologically, says,

    And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

    If, as Luke 12:36 says, Jesus returns to earth FROM the wedding, AND IF He is NOT going to be married by proxy but with his Bride at his side in heaven, then she MUST have been gathered to Him somewhere prior to their wedding in heaven. Indeed, the Pre-tribulation Rapture is the only feasible explanation because it fits in perfectly with the rest of the end-times. Even the very first prophet said so,

    And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints, To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.

    They are going to come WITH HIM to do what? To judge the ungodly! If, as you said, judgment is going to be meted out right at the end of the thousand years while the new earth and the heaven is going to commence immediately after the 1000 years, who are they going to judge?

    I really think you are the confused one who does not understand Revelation.

  • WOW, now you really have proven that you are confused. You obviously do not know what a wedding is? I assume that when you got married, you said to your husband, “Sweetie, you really should see this in context. You are not really my bridegroom. I am just testing you to see whether you are a worthy or unworthy servant of my wrath.”

    I have debated many people on the internet about the Rapture and all of them used the very same tactic you are using here – “You are dealling with some tiny point out of cxontext.” Only those who are alive will not go through death unto resurrection. Many who have died in Christ will be dead when He comes at the Rapture. So your context-argumement falls flat – flatter – altogether flat on its face.

  • Christine (Justina) Erikson

    Tom (Discerning the World) wrote:

    WOW, now you really have proven that you are confused. You obviously do not know what a wedding is? I assume that when you got married, you said to your husband, “Sweetie, you really should see this in context. You are not really my bridegroom. I am just testing you to see whether you are a worthy or unworthy servant of my wrath.”

    The problem of your confusion is not context so much as failure to understand, that the bride of Christ has not yet been in the wedding. That doesn’t happen until after He comes back and has been here a long time. you are also taking analogies, which are many and varied therefore none of them exact let alone to what you are used to beyond a mere similarity, and treating them as absolutes.

    Rev. 21:1, 2 “And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
    “And I john saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven,PREPARED AS A BRIDE ADORNED FOR HER HUSBAND.”

    St. Paul doesn’t say we ARE the bride of Christ he says we are BETROTHED to Christ, 2 Cor. 11:2. though he uses the word “espoused,” he says he did so to present you as a pure virgin to Christ, so this espousal is what we would call a betrothal. if you haven’t been presented to your husband yet, you can’t call it a wedding.

    In any case, your argument falls flat because of centuries of persecution, which when we suffer we get a better resurrection than if we didn’t. Heb. 11:35. What is so unique about the antichrist’s persecution, what is new about being offered the choice of apostasy or death? nothing. and if he is killing such vast numbers that Jesus said no flesh would be left alive unless this were cut short, then he doesn’t have time for much torture and probably will use the guillotine a lot. Beheading is an easy way to die, only conscious a few seconds and not as much pain as a broken leg.

    If your argument about not testing the bride (or bride to be) is true, then none of the persecutions from apostolic times to now would ever have happened. So you need to rethink everything.

  • Christine (Justina) Erikson

    There is a huge difference between Jerusalem ‘PREPARED AS A BRIDE ADORNED FOR HER HUSBAND” and THE BRIDE (ALL THE BELIEVERS WHO HAD BEEN WASHED IN THE BLOOD OF CHRIST). The Bride is NOT prepared AS a Bride in heaven. She IS the Bride who has been prepared to be his Bride on earth.

    What on earth is the difference between the Bride of Christ and BETROTHED to Christ? Really, you should learn what a wedding and a bride and a bridegroom and betrothed mean. They all refer to a wedding and a marriage. And Luke 12:36 distinctly says He returns FROM the wedding WITH his Bride. (Jude verse 14).

    If your assertion that the Bride of Christ will go through the tribulation then precious few of his Bride will be alive at a Post-trib Rapture because God is going to give Antichrist the power to overcome and slaughter them (Revelation 13:7).

    At any rate Jesus promised,

    Rev 3:10: Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee FROM the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

    The word “from” in this instance does not mean to be kept safe within the zone or sphere of danger. It means He is going to remove the believers completely out of (from one place to another) the zone or sphere of danger. If it were true that He is going to keep them safe in the tribulation as He had done with Israel in Goshen, then Revelation 13:7 is a lie.

    I don’t need to rethink anything. There is a vast difference between the persecution of the saints and God’s wrath falling on the wicked. You should rethink Revelation 3:10. Not only that, you should rethink what wedding, marriage, bride and bridegroom and betrothed mean. You will only learn to understand the Rapture when you have learned what these terms really mean.

    The Christians who are going to be persecuted in the tribulation are NOT his Bride but Jews and Gentiles who are going to be saved at that time.

  • Tom (Discerning the World) wrote:
    I’m going to try to make it simple for you, and I’m very tired right now so I am trying to make it simple for me.

    The wedding is AFTER the last judgement (yes the ones reigning with Him do not go through this except perhaps to settle what they got coming good or bad for how they did their job but they are safe from the second death).

    The wedding is AFTER there is a new heavens and a new earth.

    a wedding is where you get married, and up to that time you are betrothed or engaged to get married, before that you are sizing each other up and then make the commitment level of betrothal.

    RULE NUMBER ONE: all this stuff you are focusing on is analogy, not literal central but using something people knew about to help tell them about something that cannot be entirely explained easily. So you can’t get bogged down in details.

    RULE NUMBER TWO: any of these parable analogies are not necessarily focused on who the bride is and that’s you and whoop dee doo. none of them are in fact, if I recall right, they focus on making sure you so behave and keep your mind that you won’t miss the party or won’t get punished for being a lousy servant but rewarded.

    RULE NUMBER THREE: the rest of analogies and parables some more explicit than others, such as last judgement scenes incl. one parable about a man returning from a long trip and finding his servant has been beating those he was to care for, another about the talents, and the more explanation needing parable of the sower, not to mention the analogies of us “the bride” to branches on a vine, with warning that a branch that doesn’t cling to the core trunk (Jesus) withers, dries, doesn’t bear fruit, dies, and is cut out and thrown in the fire (yes you can lose your salvation, also a warning of the parable of the sower) ALL NEED TO BE PAID ATTENTION TO.

    All this ranting about brides and weddings doesn’t sound like you or anyone else is doing that.

    And frankly, you don’t see much such focus in Paul’s letters, maybe one or two quick references. A big long lecture however on the church as an ORGANIC CREATURE similar to a body from one view, or a Portuguese Man O War multi critter going to make one critter type thing from another view.

    The church is also called the pillar and foundation of the truth. (needs a roof but these are the serious elements of a building.) it is the housing of the truth. What is the Truth? JESUS is the truth. The Holy Spirit in the Church feed us Jesus’ truth in the Scriptures and in GIVING US COMMON SENSE IF WE WILL RECEIVE IT, HINT, HINT.

    have Jesus’ idea of a nice day.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Christine

    Christine
    You say “could the pretrib rapture lie be not some harmless error, but be setting some up for a fake rapture for a fake jesus, to be grabbed by demons or a cult to be killed or worse?” A fake rapture? Please tell us how something like this would be pulled of?

    real easy. already there have been people in 1844 a large group who sold all and went to some hill to wait the second coming and it didn’t happen, they went home okay, the russellites morphed into SDA and JW after that. but supposing some team had been waiting to kill them? or aliens in flying saucers to take them? or demons strong enough because of many blood sacrifices to kill them or take them into some parallel dimension?

    or people looking to kill Christians without anything unusual except some fake imagery perhaps and “He is in the desert” or “open the door to the messengers and go with them” and they end up in a concentration camp.

    No Christine, I asked you how the evil powers of the world going to pull off a false rapture where millions of people just vanish into thin air in the twinkling of an eye. Your answer is totally a load of nonsense. Rounding up people to put into concentration camps takes time Christine and everyone will notice and silly people waiting on a hill who don’t vanish because they are deceived is not an answer to my question.

  • Christine (Justina) Erikson wrote

    I’m going to try to make it simple for you, and I’m very tired right now so I am trying to make it simple for me. . . .

    a wedding is where you get married, and up to that time you are betrothed or engaged to get married, before that you are sizing each other up and then make the commitment level of betrothal.

    Nothing is more simpler than the meaning of the word “wedding” in Luke 12:36. However, you refuse to accept the most simple of the simplest.

    You really don’t have to educate me on the marriage custom of the Near East, especially the Jewish custom. Any simple old guy like myself knows that – in the Jewish marriage custom – “betrothal” and the “wedding” proper differ in regard to the time frame but are exactly the same with regard to its eternal substance.

    In 2 Corinthians 11:2 the word for “espoused” or “betrothed” is “harmozō” and in Luke 12:36 the word for wedding is “gamos.” The word “ἁρμόζω” (betrothed) means to join or to fit together or to GIVE one in marriage to someone. Paul is saying in effect, “When I proclaimed the Gospel to you and you received it and Jesus became your only Saviour, I joined you to Him. I fitted you to Him as a carpenter would fit things together. I espoused you to Him.”

    The word “γάμος” (wedding, “gamos”) is the wedding proper or the final consummation of the wedding. At the translation of the church (all the true believers) Christ appears as a Bridegroom to take his bride unto Himself, so that the relationship that was pledged at the “betrothal” (“harmozō”) may be consummated and that the two might become one for all eternity.

    It ties in perfectly with the marriage custom of the Jews. First the couple is “betrothed” (or engaged, as you said) and then the knot is tied (when the wedding proper takes place). The bride is betrothed to the bridegroom; the bridegroom returns to his father’s home where he prepares a place for them to live; he returns secretly like a thief in the night at midnight and snatches her away to live with him forevermore.

    You wrote,

    RULE NUMBER ONE: all this stuff you are focusing on is analogy, not literal central but using something people knew about to help tell them about something that cannot be entirely explained easily. So you can’t get bogged down in details.

    Post-tribulationists and and Post-millennialists have a god they call “ANALOGY.” To them the book of Revelation is merely a series of analogies. Remember, an analogy or a symbol cannot be an analogy or a symbol without literalness. They merely describe a literal event or events in symbolic form.

    That’s your whole problem! You have never studied the details, the result being that you don’t know what you are talking about. Instead you have become bogged down in a miry marsh of lies , for instance that Pre-tribulationism is a new doctrine, arising in the last hundred years, and therefore to be rejected because it is not apostolic.

    Paul called the Rapture a mystery which simply (made simple for you) means that it had never been revealed in the past and only became known when Jesus chose him to be the instrument by whom He wanted to reveal the Rapture. Do you reject the Rapture because it was unknown in the OT and even to Jesus Christ’s immediate apostles? Does their ignorance of the Rapture nullify the doctrine of the Rapture?

    You wrote,

    All this ranting about brides and weddings doesn’t sound like you or anyone else is doing that.

    Again this proves that you know nothing about the imminent return of Jesus Christ at the Rapture. Your view that the wedding takes place after there is a new heavens and a new earth destroys the doctrine of imminency of the Rapture.

    You wrote,

    The church is also called the pillar and foundation of the truth. (needs a roof but these are the serious elements of a building.) it is the housing of the truth. What is the Truth? JESUS is the truth. The Holy Spirit in the Church feed us Jesus’ truth in the Scriptures and in GIVING US COMMON SENSE IF WE WILL RECEIVE IT, HINT, HINT

    Indeed, common sense tells us that when Jesus returns from the wedding, He will be returning WITH his Bride and NOT to her because He is not going to present his Bride to his Father by proxy. The marriage of the Lamb is NOT going to be consummated by proxy. Now, that’s what I call common sense.

    I really don’t have time to waste on people who refuse to use their common sense. I shall not reply to any of your comments again. In fact, I shall delete them as I did your previous common-senseless comments.

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Freemasonry and the Dutch Reformed Church - Part 1

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