Love Covers All Transgressions

Tom (Discerning the World)

Discerning the World is an internet Discernment ministry based in Johannesburg South Africa that was founded in 2008. Tom Lessing originally founded the website “Waak en Bid/Watch and Pray”. Tom Lessing joined Discerning the World in May 2013 and all his articles were moved across to DTW.

23 Responses

  1. John Chingford says:

    Hi Thomas

    Of course REAL love cares enough to speak the truth and expose heresy/false teaching. If leaven is spreading it MUST be confronted. But there is a right and wrong way of doing this. We do need to speak out but MUST do it using the instructions of 1 Corinthians 13:4-8

    Love suffers long and is kind; love does not envy; love does not parade itself, is not puffed up; does not behave rudely, does not seek its own, is not provoked, thinks no evil; does not rejoice in iniquity, but rejoices in the truth; bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things. Love never fails.

    We are also told that “our speech should be gracious seasoned with salt so that we would know how to answer everybody”.

    It IS possible to speak out the truth, exposing false teachers in the styles mentioned above. If we don’t use the style above it is not going to achieve much.

  2. Deborah (Discerning the World) says:

    John

    >> We are also told that “our speech should be gracious seasoned with salt so that we would know how to answer everybody”.

    That is a snide remark. Thomas comment was NOT horrible to you, but you took offence because you disagreed with him and believed in an heretical teaching. Instead of staying out of the argument and going to search to find the truth of the matter in the background you jumped in and attacked Thomas when he was trying to tell Andrew the truth. You owe him an apology.

  3. John Chingford says:

    Debs

    Thomas said “As oddly as it may seem, heresies reveal the true Christians.

    {Edited by DTW: It would be good for you to read this: http://www.discerningtheworld.com/2013/06/09/love-covers-all-transgressions-2/

    I wrongly thought that the comment was addressed to me. I now see that it was to Hank. Therefore, I read it out of respect. I am simply adding something he missed because 1 Cor 13 is vital. It is NOT a snide comment, just adding something important. Please do not keep reading into things; intentions not meant by me.

  4. Hi John. With regard to your quote of 1 Corinthians 13:4-8

    1) In what way was I unkind?
    2) In what way was I envious?
    3) In what way did I parade myself when I quoted Scripture?
    4) In what way was I puffed up?
    5) In what way did I behave rudely?
    6) IN what way did I seek my own?
    7) In what way did I rejoice in iniquity?

    I would gladly repent of my sins if you can answer the question above.

  5. Deborah (Discerning the World) says:

    Something has gone haywire here, I am missing a comment…

    John, if you commented and it’s missing, I am sorry I don’ know what’s happened to it. Please resend.

  6. John Chingford says:

    Thomas, did you see my reply (above) to Debs? I stated that it was not directed at you personally. I just felt that the subject matter needed to also consider the right way/attitude of dealing with heresy according to 1 Cor 13.

    By the way, did you notice my last reply to you on the other subject http://www.discerningtheworld.com/2013/06/06/understanding-the-trinity-god-the-father-jesus-christ-and-the-holy-spirit/#comment-245788 ?

    You do seem to be selective in what parts of my comments to read without reading the context of them. It is very frustrating for me. This is why neither you nor Debs seem to understand what I am trying to convey and keep getting me wrong. By doing so (whether you realise it or not) you are painting a false/bad picture of me to your readers.

    Please note the revelation I received this morning which I have shared.

  7. Deborah (Discerning the World) says:

    John

    >> You do seem to be selective in what parts of my comments to read without reading the context of them. It is very frustrating for me. This is why neither you nor Debs seem to understand what I am trying to convey and keep getting me wrong. By doing so (whether you realise it or not) you are painting a false/bad picture of me to your readers.

    Um…no, people can read for themselves what is going on here and put two and two together John. We have painted you with no brush, that was your own doing.

    >> Please note the revelation I received this morning which I have shared.

    I am very happy for this! :)

  8. Sharon says:

    2nd Timothy 4:3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
    2nd Timothy 4:4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.

    I’m thinking I missed “something” concerning this article. Any way…We live in a day where people are searching for truth. When they are presented with Truth, quite often it is not liked. If it is Scriptural Truth then they must make a decision whether to believe it or reject it. If truth is rejected then usually the messenger gets blamed. Accusations fly around. Words disparaging the messenger go something like, “well who do they think they are or she/he thinks they’re perfect…etc.

    When falsehood is revealed it usually is not liked. I don’t like being lied about and I have been called some very disgusting things. I take things like that very hard. Perhaps it’s a form of pride.

    This site for me is refreshing though I have to remind myself often that the Deb-ster is not American, nor in America. But “heresy” is global. Wolves are every-where. I like seeing lies, false teaching and teachers exposed. But I will never say that “Reverend So-in-so or Miss-so-in-so is not saved. Only God knows that. He has many kids that lie, twist scripture, cheat and can be “wolfish.” There are those out there like Benny Hinn and others that I have my doubts concerning their relationship with our Father. But I can’t state for a fact that someone is saved or lost.

    Now…back to the issue (I chased a rabbit there for a second) Sometimes when I am studying a particular topic for a long time it becomes almost an obsession to me. Yes, I have a Obsessive Compulsivity issue. I hurt someone very dear to me a couple of weeks ago. She is what we would call a Calvinist and I am not. I had seen some comments here under the John Calvin articles that I have never heard of before. So I asked her a couple of questions. It ended up with me getting angry (I accuse Calvinists of doing that)and said too much. We have been friends for 53 of our 58 years here below. I was miserable and very angry at myself for my attitude. She is one of the godliest people I have ever known. I believe, as much as I can know, that she is saved. But, I have the truth concerning Calvinism, but I went in like a hurricane.

    God has not called me to try to change my friends mind. That is his doings, not mine.
    It is apparent that God is using the Deb-ster to shine the light of truth on heresy and heretics. I shine that light sometimes too when the Lord permits. But for me, if I do this too long then I turn inward, get negative, defensive and seem angry from the inside out and the outside back in. That’s not a good place for me or to be in.

    We all have what we believe is our “Ministry.” We all desire to serve the Lord. He has gifted us with differing abilities, talents, skills. All of it though is not about us, it is about Him. If I lose site of that then I get in the flesh, then I get disobedient and think too highly of myself. God doesn’t need me. But He uses me any way. God didn’t die and leave me in charge, thank God. :o)

    Some times, even among we believers, truth is like beauty…it’s in the eye of the beholder. Just because people disagree with me, it doesn’t mean I’m wrong. Just because people agree with me, it doesn’t mean I am right. No one was more misunderstood than our Savior…yet he opened not His mouth.

    So, I will continue to do what I believe He permits me to do for Him. You all do the same and then let folks say what ever they’re going to say. There’s a whole lot of “itching ears” around the world. Ever searching, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.

    His peace to you.

  9. Sharon wrote:

    When falsehood is revealed it usually is not liked. I don’t like being lied about and I have been called some very disgusting things. I take things like that very hard. Perhaps it’s a form of pride.

    If you don’t like to be lied about, think how much God the God of Truth must hate to be lied about. It is not just a form of pride. It is pride. Humility begin with teachability. If we don’t have a teachable spirit, we’re not humble. But that does not mean we should timidly accept everything we are taught as the truth. We should search the Scriptures to see whether it is true. So let’s search the Scriptures to see whether your next statement is true.

    Sharon wrote:

    But I can’t state for a fact that someone is saved or lost.

    If the doctrine of salvation is the central theme of the Bible, and I’m sure you will agree that it is, then we dare not tamper with it. And if we do, we are playing with the eternal souls of people. That’s why John wrote:

    Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son. (2 John 1:9)

    Not to have God means not to be saved.

    And that’s why Paul wrote:

    But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. (Gal 1:8)

    Would you say Calvinism preaches the Gospel? If it does, then shout Hallelujah; if it doesn’t then it should be anathematized.

  10. Deborah (Discerning the World) says:

    Sharon

    I think you should read the article again :) because what has happened between you and your frined is exactly what Jesus said would happened in the last days. Calvinism is not the gospel of Jesus.

    You say you can’t say who is saved and who is not only God knows, but you go and proclaim about your friend who follows the demonic doctrine of Calvinism “as much as I can know, that she is saved” How do you know that?

    Sharon, you are hurting because you have lost a friendship of 50+ years, but you took a stand for Jesus Christ and HIS TRUTH and a spiritual battle ensued, and you won as you walked away knowing that those doctrines ARE FALSE and Jesus Christ was happy for that stand that you took. Now you are creeping back to satan again asking for forgiveness? You want to agree with his doctrines of demons? What do you think Jesus must think of this whole situation? If you are going back to your friend to PREACH THE GOSPEL OF JESUS CHRIST TO her then go be with her, but if you are going back to her for the sake of friendship, then there is something wrong. Because I can tell you what is going to happen now. Satan is now going to try and convince you that Calvinism is correct; after all you have come back with a white flag waving it in surrender.

    As for your anger, you need to figure out why exactly you are angry. It’s not right that you should be angry with your friend. yes we have emotions and such, we are human after all, and you are hurt, but you can’t now all of sudden accept this evil doctrine of Calvinism because you think you being angry is wrong and now that makes the whole situation a disaster and you have to run back to your friend on ‘her terms’. If you were angry with her, do apologies yes, but you can not go back against Jesus and His Gospel.

    Pick your side carefully Sharon, you can’t sit on the fence.

  11. Paul exhorts us to proclaim the Gospel in season (when things are favourable) and out of season (when things are not so favourable and even dangerous to our lives). Why? Because, believe it or not, most people WON’T listen to you; even your closest of kin will think you’re a little bonkers. Why? Because:-

    For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables. But watch thou in all things, endure afflictions, do the work of an evangelist, make full proof of thy ministry. For I am now ready to be offered, and the time of my departure is at hand. (2 Timothy 4:3-6)

    Are we prepared to be offered for the sake of Jesus and his doctrines?

    Sharon wrote:

    It is apparent that God is using the Deb-ster to shine the light of truth on heresy and heretics. I shine that light sometimes too when the Lord permits. But for me, if I do this too long then I turn inward, get negative, defensive and seem angry from the inside out and the outside back in. That’s not a good place for me or to be in.

    You’re quite right. That’s not a good place for you to be in. You don’t say whether you became angry with your friend but if you had it would be a good thing to apologise to her. That would leave the door open so that when she begins to ask questions (you may even pray for her to ask questions), you may answer her in a spirit of meekness and humility.

    Sometimes the things Jesus said, seemed a little harsh. He always said and explained things in a spirit of meekness and humility and never compromised the truth. Consider the following:

    Then one said unto him, Behold, thy mother and thy brethren stand without, desiring to speak with thee. But he answered and said unto him that told him, Who is my mother? and who are my brethren? And he stretched forth his hand toward his disciples, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren! For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.(Matthew 12:47-50)

    Would you say that of your mother? Jesus said it and He was not harsh when He said it. He was merely stating the truth.

  12. Sharon says:

    Calvinism is anathema. I am positively, absolutely, most assured and confident that Calvinism is a gross miscarriage of who God is, who we are, and I hate it. It is a damnable teaching. It is my personal belief that John Calvin is in hell and has been there for over 500 years now. A Christian need only read Calvin’s “statement of faith.” There is nothing about repentance. No mention of Jesus Christ one way or the other.

    Calvin and most of the other “reformers” reformed nothing. Their claims of hatred for the Pope and the Roman Whore is paled by their hatred for the Anabaptists of their time. They hounded, persecuted and murdered untold thousands just as Rome did.

    No, I am not on the fence where Calvinism is concerned. I hate it. I hate the fact that my friend let herself be deceived. I do believe, as much as I can know, that she is saved. I know of her testimony concerning her salvation. She started going to a Calvinist church in 2004 and that set the stage for the deception. Her youngest brother is a Pastor and is Calvinistic. Her old brother is not a Calvinist and a KJV only user.

    Her husband is a nice guy. Problem is he is lost. As far as church goes, he doesn’t go. So without proper leadership in matters of Spiritual things I believe it contributed to her falling into this false teaching.

    When I say that I cannot judge a persons heart concerning if they’re saved or not. I believe that is a true statement. Salvation is a personal relationship between ourselves and Jesus Christ. Do I inspect “fruit” in the life of someone? Yes, we are supposed to do that. But can I say absolutely that someone is saved or lost. No and I don’t believe anyone can say that beyond a shadow of a doubt that someone is saved or lost.

    I did apologize to my friend for getting angry. She said there was nothing to forgive. But I said, I let myself get angry and I was wrong. I am not afraid to stand up, speak up for the Lord. I am not afraid to shine the light of His truth on most any given topic. She and I will eventually speak again on this issue, this cancer called Calvinism.

    Anyway…I do appreciate your comments to me.

  13. Sharon says:

    I don’t believe that I am creeping back to satan asking for forgiveness. While I did ask my friend to forgive me for my anger, I make no apologies for what I said. I believe every thing I stated against Calvinism is true. Was I out to intentionally cause hurt? No. I read here a couple of statements made about Calvinists and so I asked her if she felt the same way. Someone mentioned that Calvinists hate the lost. I have never heard my friend say she hated any one. Maybe some Calvinist do hate the lost but that was something I have never heard before. Right now I can’t remember the other statement. I have studied consistently for 3 years this detestable teaching of John Calvin. The more I studied the more troubled my spirit would become, not at me, but at what my friend has gotten herself into.

    So, I doubt my friend will ask me any questions for a long time to come, if ever. She said to me that God had not called her to try to change my mind concerning “Sovereign Grace theology.” That is something else…it’s like if you’re not a Calvinist then you don’t believe God is Sovereign. Where do they come up with this stuff? Of course God is Sovereign. But there are things a Sovereign God can’t/won’t do. He can lie. He will not go against any of His attributes. This is just a small thing that irks me. That and being called Arminian if I am not a Calvinist. I’ve told her and many other people, do not call me a Calvinist, do not call me Arminian because I am neither. Then there is the term “Reformed Baptist.” Baptist are not reformed, reformers were not Baptists. During the “reformation” years Baptists were hunted down like animals and murdered in some horrible ways and not just by Rome. Calvin, Luther, King Henry 8th, Queen Elizabeth the First all hated Baptists.

    I’m preaching now, so I’ll stop. I will always stand up for what Scripture says. When it comes to Doctrine, Scripture…Truth there are no friends, there is no family. I have had to stand against friends a couple of times because they were terribly wrong. I am no coward. I am not educated, but I know what I believe, I know who I believe in and I will always, by His grace, stand.

    Thanks for your input.

    Deborah (Discerning the World) wrote:

    Sharon

    I think you should read the article again :) because what has happened between you and your frined is exactly what Jesus said would happened in the last days. Calvinism is not the gospel of Jesus.

    You say you can’t say who is saved and who is not only God knows, but you go and proclaim about your friend who follows the demonic doctrine of Calvinism “as much as I can know, that she is saved” How do you know that?

    Sharon, you are hurting because you have lost a friendship of 50+ years, but you took a stand for Jesus Christ and HIS TRUTH and a spiritual battle ensued, and you won as you walked away knowing that those doctrines ARE FALSE and Jesus Christ was happy for that stand that you took. Now you are creeping back to satan again asking for forgiveness? You want to agree with his doctrines of demons? What do you think Jesus must think of this whole situation? If you are going back to your friend to PREACH THE GOSPEL OF JESUS CHRIST TO her then go be with her, but if you are going back to her for the sake of friendship, then there is something wrong. Because I can tell you what is going to happen now. Satan is now going to try and convince you that Calvinism is correct; after all you have come back with a white flag waving it in surrender.

    As for your anger, you need to figure out why exactly you are angry. It’s not right that you should be angry with your friend. yes we have emotions and such, we are human after all, and you are hurt, but you can’t now all of sudden accept this evil doctrine of Calvinism because you think you being angry is wrong and now that makes the whole situation a disaster and you have to run back to your friend on ‘her terms’. If you were angry with her, do apologies yes, but you can not go back against Jesus and His Gospel.

    Pick your side carefully Sharon, you can’t sit on the fence.

  14. Sharon says:

    When I wrote, I don’t like being lied about” the thought came into my head exactly what you said about the Lord being lied about. As for the comment about knowing whether someone is saved or not, I still believe that while I believe the Deb-Ster is saved, do I know for a fact that she is? No. I believe my friend is saved because I know her testimony concerning her salvation many years ago. But, can I say that I am positive she is saved? No. The only person that I know for sure is saved is myself.

    God has many disobedient children. Some of them truly don’t “act saved.” But can I say for certain that they’re not saved? No, I cannot and neither can you. Salvation is a personal relationship between the believer and our Savior. There are also a lot of folks out there that are basically good people and behave better than some saved people I know. But can I then just assume they must be saved because they are such a sweet, kindhearted and respectable person? No, I cannot assume that.

    Squeeze and lemon hard enough it’s contents will come out. The same is true of a Christian going through testing. Squeeze me hard enough and what is in me will come out…so to speak. :o) I got squeezed concerning the Calvinism issue between my friend and I. What I said to her was not wrong. It was the way I said it.

    Galations 6:10 As we have therefore opportunity, let us do good unto all men, especially unto them who are of the household of faith.

    Perhaps it was good to call out the false teaching and I am not afraid to do so, but my attitude was not doing good to a sister in Christ Jesus.

    I am divorced after 28 years of marriage. 13 years ago “he” wanted out. After the last three years of my marriage and being told I was stupid, would never make it is the real world…etc I sat out to prove that I am not stupid. Nothing rocked my faith like my divorce. But it made me a stronger Christian in the long run. It took me awhile to find my own identity. I had always been either my parents daughter or Mrs. E. When I was no longer Mrs. E I found out what I was made of. A cousin reminded me that I was a Griffith woman. That meant my faith in the Lord was strong and that the women in my family had to be strong to tolerate some of the Griffith men! ;O)

    Since I gave up going to college because I was in love waaayyyyy back in the 70’s I had little to fall back on when my marriage ended abruptly. I took a few college courses but never got a degree. There was one area in my life that God impressed on me at around the age of 14 and that was my love for the Word of God. It took me awhile to regain my footing after the divorce. I hit a couple of rocky paths but in the long run that me stronger too. My lack of education shows, but I hope my love for King Jesus shines much brighter. Are we not His ambassadors? How does an ambassador behave? Do we launch attacks against our brothers and sisters in Christ even if we are right? Does exposing error have to always be done harshly? Because of my anger at Calvinism I turned that anger onto my best friend. How much influence do you think I had because of my tirade?

    I heard a preacher say once, it is ok to fight the fight, but is the hill you’re fighting on worth dying on? If it is then fight with all you have in you. But if this skirmish is not worth dying for then let it go. There will be other battles. We true Christians in the days ahead are going to have to have a great amount of courage. I see things happening here in the USA that are frightening…especially when you have grandchildren growing up in such a time as this. Perhaps like Esther, we all have been born for just such a time as this.

    His peace to you Thomas.

    Thomas Lessing (Watch and Pray / Waak en Bid) wrote:

    Sharon wrote:

    When falsehood is revealed it usually is not liked. I don’t like being lied about and I have been called some very disgusting things. I take things like that very hard. Perhaps it’s a form of pride.

    If you don’t like to be lied about, think how much God the God of Truth must hate to be lied about. It is not just a form of pride. It is pride. Humility begin with teachability. If we don’t have a teachable spirit, we’re not humble. But that does not mean we should timidly accept everything we are taught as the truth. We should search the Scriptures to see whether it is true. So let’s search the Scriptures to see whether your next statement is true.

    Sharon wrote:

    But I can’t state for a fact that someone is saved or lost.

    If the doctrine of salvation is the central theme of the Bible, and I’m sure you will agree that it is, then we dare not tamper with it. And if we do, we are playing with the eternal souls of people. That’s why John wrote:

    Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son. (2 John 1:9)

    Not to have God means not to be saved.

    And that’s why Paul wrote:

    But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. (Gal 1:8)

    Would you say Calvinism preaches the Gospel? If it does, then shout Hallelujah; if it doesn’t then it should be anathematized.

  15. All true Christians may be deceived in some kind of way but they will never fall away completely into any kind of false teachings. When a Christian is not sure about something he should stand on neutral ground, search the Scriptures and trust the Lord to lead him in the truth (John 16:13). Peter was deceived when he thought he was the cats whiskers and refused to eat with non-Jews but immediately repented when he was warned by Paul.

    How can one possibly first believe that sinners are saved through faith in Jesus and his Gospel and then suddenly believe that they are saved because they are the elect? Something is wrong! When Jesus said, “Take heed that no one deceives you” He did not mean that his disciples were going to fall into apostasy. He simply told them to be alert and on their guard for false teachers.

    I am not suggesting that your friend is lost. She may be saved, but I am rather surprised that she changed her mind on HOW to be saved. Usually persons who get involved in Calvinism and start to believe that it is the true Gospel, are made to believe that they were never saved and that they should embrace the doctrines of grace (TULIP). So, your friend herself probably believes that she was never saved, but is now saved because she now allegedly has been given true insight into the sovereignty of God – a sovereignty that chooses some to eternal life and some to eternal damnation. I can assure you that she believes that you are not saved because she now believes that faith is not necessary for salvation. Faith, as they say, is a gift given only to the elect AFTER they had been sovereignly and monergistically regenerated by God. That’s blasphemy.

    Someone once told me that Christians are allowed to become angry but only when Jesus and his doctrines are being twisted, compromised and misrepresented. Hence, your anger was justified. The reason why I suggested that you apologize was not to show timidity in the face of adversity but that you may have an open door to her. We must always be ready to help those who have fallen prey to false teachers.

    My brothers, if anyone among you wanders from the truth and someone brings him back, let him know that whoever brings back a sinner from his wandering will save his soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins.” (James 5:19-20)

    Perhaps you could ask her how she received forgiveness for her sins. Listen carefully to what she says. Or perhaps you could even ask her whether she thought she was already saved before she embraced the doctrines of TULIP.

    If she refuses to listen, then it’s time to leave her to her own beliefs and devices. There comes a time when we must remain silent and that time is when those you warn are adamant and obstinate to listen to you and heed your warnings. It is sad but there’s nothing you can do about it, accept to pray for her.

  16. Deborah (Discerning the World) says:

    Sharon

    The best thing you can do for your friend is pray for her and pray for her long and hard that she comes to see the truth of this horrible doctrine she is following. God is the only one that can turn this situation around. So pray. :)

  17. Sharon says:

    I do pray for her and she know I do. She received Jesus as her Savior way before she turned Calvinistic. Her son lives in California and is a homosexual. I love him like a nephew and it hurts my heart that this is the life he chose for himself. I’m positive that this has broke the hearts of his parents. My friends daughter her husband are rock solid Christians. I told my friend recently that there was a day and night last month that I had such a burden for her son and her husband. I said, there is no heart our God cannot reach. I kept telling her to get a King James Bible and read John 3:16, then reread it and read it again and again. My point was that God loved the world, all the people so much that he gave his son for the world, for everyone. I cannot help but wonder if she thinks well, My husband and son might not be a part of the “elect.” She has never said that to me, I just wonder. No they’re not part of the elect because they have not responded to the gospel of Jesus Christ. You become the elect the moment you get saved.

    I will continue to pray. It is in God’s hands.

    Deborah (Discerning the World) wrote:

    Sharon

    The best thing you can do for your friend is pray for her and pray for her long and hard that she comes to see the truth of this horrible doctrine she is following. God is the only one that can turn this situation around. So pray. :)

  18. Deborah (Discerning the World) says:

    Sharon

    >> You become the elect the moment you get saved.

    That’s it.

    I so wish Calvinsts would understand important detail.

  19. Sharon says:

    Some Calvinist say we who are not have too much pride because we have something to do with out Salvation. WRONG! If any have too much pride it is the Calvinist. After all, they’re the “Elect” and chosen before the foundation of the world. Some Calvinist believe that we who are not, are just not spiritual enough to understand. WRONG! Then there is the issue of “Predestination.” What were we “predestined” to do?

    Romans 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

    1st we, the saved, are predestined to be CONFORMED TO THE IMAGE OF HIS SON! Paul was speaking to saved people. While we were created in God’s image, sin left us tainted and God could not look upon us because of our sin. But when we received Jesus as our Savior and Lord, our sin was then atoned for by the precious blood of Jesus. God now looks at us and when He does, he sees the blood of His only Begotten son. At the moment we are saved our growing in Christ process began. I am still being conformed and will continue to be so until I draw my last breath.

    2. Chosen. What is it to be chosen? We are chosen to SERVICE, not salvation. God has blessed ALL of His children with certain spiritual gifts. Some have been chosen to do what we would call “great works.” Some have been chosen for “small works.” All are important. I imagined once that if God were to name the Greatest Christian of all the ages, who would it be? It may be someone with a very public and successful ministry. But then, it may be that little lady whose talent was to pray, or clean the bathrooms at the church. It might be some missionary that gave his whole life on a mission field and received no recognition here. What ever our spiritual gifts and talents we have been CHOSEN by our Lord to serve others, and serve Him.

    A Calvinist I know says that after becoming a Calvinist she experienced freedom in Christ like she had never known before. I replied with this verse: John 8:36 If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.

    In the world of Christianity I know nothing that produces more arrogance, pride and hurt than Calvinism.

    I want to ask this Calvinist woman, “when you witness to someone, do you lie to them when you say that God loved them so much that He gave His Son to atone for their sins? I wonder if she witnesses to anyone? Hmmmmm

    Deborah (Discerning the World) wrote:

    Sharon

    >> You become the elect the moment you get saved.

    That’s it.

    I so wish Calvinsts would understand important detail.

  20. Sharon says:

    Yeah, but if they understood that then they wouldn’t feel special any more. They would just be one of the saved crowd. I remember back when my son was about 3 years old. He is 35 now. We had a “church split” over the tongues issue. There were some women in the church thinking they had more of God than the rest of us because they had this “special gift” that we didn’t have. I won’t get into all of the bad stuff they were doing. They eventually left our church and headed for a tongue talking Assembly of God church around the corner.

    That is the same attitude I have experienced from Calvinist. They are “special” because their “election” was before the foundation of the world.” They just deem us poor non-Calvinists as just not quite spiritual enough to “understand.” Oh, I understand alright. I know that Calvinism mocks the God I know and love. My God not only loves, He is love. He is not happy when the wicked perish.

    Ezekiel 18:32 For I have no pleasure in the death of him that dieth, saith the Lord GOD: wherefore turn yourselves, and live ye.
    Ezekiel 33:11 Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?

    Calvinists don’t like those verses. Why don’t you know that God predestines some to hell for His pleasure and glory? Not according to the Word of God. The more I study Calvinism, the more I hate it. Calvinism defames our Savior. Calvinism is no friend to evangelism. Calvinism is a poor sorry excuse and a 3rd rate “gospel.” Calvinists can’t even decide when the rapture takes place. Pre-Trib? Mid-Trib? Post-Trib? Calvinism just robs the poor believers in it.

    Guess I’m just too dumb to understand. Thank God I’m dumb. :o)

    Deborah (Discerning the World) wrote:

    Sharon

    >> You become the elect the moment you get saved.

    That’s it.

    I so wish Calvinsts would understand important detail.

  21. Deborah (Discerning the World) says:

    Sharon

    >> Calvinists can’t even decide when the rapture takes place. Pre-Trib? Mid-Trib? Post-Trib? Calvinism just robs the poor believers in it.

    Gets worse, many don’t even believe in any of that and are amillennial and don’t even believe in a tribulation or an antichrist. John Calvin believed in Amillennialism as do the Roman Catholic Church

  22. Sharon says:

    I asked my friend what she believed about when the rapture will take place. She said she really didn’t know for sure. She said she had heard godly men teach on both the pre-trib and post-trib. I don’t care what these “godly men” teach. The Bible clearly points to the Pre-Trib rapture of the true Church. Would Jesus let his Bride fall under the Wrath of God? I do not believe my Savior is a Bride Beater. What purpose would it serve? After the rapture everything then will focus on Israel, not the church.

    I told her that I was really surprised that she didn’t have this issue settled. I showed her a statement from Calvin that he didn’t believe in the Millennial reign of Jesus Christ.

    She and I grew up in the suburbs of Detroit, Michigan where there were a lot of Catholic Churches. I am just amazed that Calvinists believe everything Calvin wrote. He remained Catholic in his theology. I don’t get it. I don’t even find anything in Calvinism that is appealing. God is Sovereign. I don’t have to be a Calvinist to believe that. God has “foreknowledge”. Duh…ya think? Our God knows who will and who won’t be saved. I know that I am predestined…to be conformed into the image of the Son of God. I don’t have to be Calvinist to believe that. All of the Saved are chosen. We are chosen for service for the Lord. We are to do what ever He equips us to do.

    I guess I’m still dumb…..Praise God!

    Deborah (Discerning the World) wrote:

    Sharon

    >> Calvinists can’t even decide when the rapture takes place. Pre-Trib? Mid-Trib? Post-Trib? Calvinism just robs the poor believers in it.

    Gets worse, many don’t even believe in any of that and are amillennial and don’t even believe in a tribulation or an antichrist. John Calvin believed in Amillennialism as do the Roman Catholic Church

  23. Sharon says:

    Hey Tom, it’s 4:41 in the morning where I am. I can’t sleep because of a lot of “stuff” rolling around in my brain today. I just reread your post concerning my friend. She has told me that she believes I’m saved. When she told me that for a split second it kinda irked me. It seemed a bit condescending to me. Calvinist to me, for the most part, seem to be quite arrogant. Like, “well I am a part of the elect and you’re not.” That smacks of being like the Pharisees.

    We are the same age, grew up in the same non Calvinistic church. She married a lost man and will be married 40 years August 18th. I married a saved man and got dumped after 28 years. This coming Sunday, June 16th is Fathers Day in the USA; it would have also been my 40th wedding anniversary. Our parents were non-Calvinist and all of them loved the Lord deeply. We have a rich Christian heritage. Her parents didn’t agree with her Calvinism and told her so. Obviously they didn’t attend the same church in Tennessee. So we grew up pretty much the same. But one of us chose Calvinism and it wasn’t me.

    I am sinner saved by grace. I love Jesus Christ more than anything and anyone in this world. Then I love my kids and my grandkids plus what few relatives I have here below heaven. I am not much as far as God’s kingdom is concerned. But I live for Him. I am passionately in love with the Word of God though I can’t express myself eloquently as you and the “Deb-Ster” (she’s the heresy terminator) do. But I know what I believe and why I believe it. I know like the Apostle Paul that I am saved and the Lord keeps me saved. I am persuaded!

    His peace to you Tom. Our Savior is simply awesome and most worthy of our Praise!

    Thomas Lessing (Watch and Pray / Waak en Bid) wrote:

    All true Christians may be deceived in some kind of way but they will never fall away completely into any kind of false teachings. When a Christian is not sure about something he should stand on neutral ground, search the Scriptures and trust the Lord to lead him in the truth (John 16:13). Peter was deceived when he thought he was the cats whiskers and refused to eat with non-Jews but immediately repented when he was warned by Paul.

    How can one possibly first believe that sinners are saved through faith in Jesus and his Gospel and then suddenly believe that they are saved because they are the elect? Something is wrong! When Jesus said, “Take heed that no one deceives you” He did not mean that his disciples were going to fall into apostasy. He simply told them to be alert and on their guard for false teachers.

    I am not suggesting that your friend is lost. She may be saved, but I am rather surprised that she changed her mind on HOW to be saved. Usually persons who get involved in Calvinism and start to believe that it is the true Gospel, are made to believe that they were never saved and that they should embrace the doctrines of grace (TULIP). So, your friend herself probably believes that she was never saved, but is now saved because she now allegedly has been given true insight into the sovereignty of God – a sovereignty that chooses some to eternal life and some to eternal damnation. I can assure you that she believes that you are not saved because she now believes that faith is not necessary for salvation. Faith, as they say, is a gift given only to the elect AFTER they had been sovereignly and monergistically regenerated by God. That’s blasphemy.

    Someone once told me that Christians are allowed to become angry but only when Jesus and his doctrines are being twisted, compromised and misrepresented. Hence, your anger was justified. The reason why I suggested that you apologize was not to show timidity in the face of adversity but that you may have an open door to her. We must always be ready to help those who have fallen prey to false teachers.

    My brothers, if anyone among you wanders from the truth and someone brings him back, let him know that whoever brings back a sinner from his wandering will save his soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins.” (James 5:19-20)

    Perhaps you could ask her how she received forgiveness for her sins. Listen carefully to what she says. Or perhaps you could even ask her whether she thought she was already saved before she embraced the doctrines of TULIP.

    If she refuses to listen, then it’s time to leave her to her own beliefs and devices. There comes a time when we must remain silent and that time is when those you warn are adamant and obstinate to listen to you and heed your warnings. It is sad but there’s nothing you can do about it, accept to pray for her.

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