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Understanding the Trinity: God the Father, Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit

7DTW AuthorIcon75 Understanding the Trinity: God the Father, Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit

Trinity1 Understanding the Trinity: God the Father, Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit

Understanding the Trinity is actually very easy and I will explain it to you today.  I will also explain the false teachings out there on what the Trinity is not, so you can understand what you are possibly believing in and change to the correct understanding of what the Trinity is.

The Trinity is ONE God existing in three separate Persons.  Now realise this just because we say three Persons does not mean there are three separate Gods, there is only ONE God. Now the world Trinity is not found in the bible, it is only a word used to describe  the “trinue” Godhead, that being three co-external,  co-existent Persons who make up ONE God.   So it’s not the word Trinity that is of importance, it’s what it represents that’s important.

The following is what God’s Word says about the Trinity:

1) There is ONE God (Deuteronomy 6:4; 1 Corinthians 8:4; Galatians 3:20; 1 Timothy 2:5).

2) The Trinity consists of THREE SEPARATE PERSONS.  See here: (Genesis 1:1,26;3:22;11:7; Isaiah 6:8,48:16,61:1; Matthew 3:16-17,28:19; 2 Corinthians 13:14).

  • In (Genesis 1:1), the plural noun for ”Elohim” is used (that meaning more than one). In( Genesis 1:26,3:22,11:7 and Isaiah 6:8), the plural pronoun for “us” is used.  ”us” denotes that there is more than one person at the same time.
  • In (Isaiah 48:16 and Isaiah 61:1), Jesus Christ the Son is speaking while making reference to the God the Father and the Holy Spirit.
  • Compare (Isaiah 61:1 to Luke 4:14-19) to see that it is the Jesus Christ the of Son of God speaking.
  • (Matthew 3:16-17) describes Jesus Christ’ baptism. Notice in this passage that the Holy Spirit descends on Jesus Christ the Son while GOD the Father proclaims from heaven that He is happy with His Son.
  • (Matthew 28:19 and 2 Corinthians 13:14) are examples of three distinct Persons in the Trinity.

3) In the Old Testament the members of the Trinity are distinguished one from another in a number of scriptures.

  • Capitalized ‘LORD’ is distinguished separately from “Lord” (Genesis 19:24; Hosea 1:4), in other words, The LORD has a Son (Psalm 2:7,12;Proverbs 30:2-4).
  • The Holy Spirit is distinguished separately from the “LORD” (Numbers 27:18) and from ‘God’ (Psalm 51:10-12).
  • Jesus Christ the Son is distinguished separately from God the Father (Psalm 45:6-7; Hebrews 1:8-9).

In the New Testament

  • In the book of John, Jesus Christ the Son speaks to the God the Father about sending a Helper, that being the Holy Spirit (John 14:16-17).  This tells us that Jesus was not part of the Father or the Holy Spirit but separate.
  • Remember all the occasions in the bible where Jesus Christ speaks to God the Father.  Was He speaking to Himself?  No.  He was speaking to the other person in the Godhead, His Father.

4) Now each Person in the Trinity is God, God the Father (John 6:27; Romans 1:7; 1 Peter 1:2). God the Son (John 1:1,14; Romans 9:5; Colossians 2:9; Hebrews 1:8; 1 John 5:20). and God the Holy Spirit (Acts 5:3-4; 1 Corinthians 3:16). But they are not separate GODS as I mentioned earlier, they are all ONE.

5)  There is actually subordination within the Godhead.

  • The Bible teaches us that the Holy Spirit is subordinate to God the Father and Jesus Christ the Son.
  • Jesus Christ is subordinate to God the Father.

This is how their relationship works and it does not deny the deity of any person within the Godhead.   Concerning Jesus Christ the Son see (Luke 22:42; John 5:36; John 20:21, and 1 John 4:14).  Concerning the Holy Spirit see (John 14:16,14:26; 15:26,16:7, and most importantly see  (John 16:13-14.)

6) The individual persons of the Godhead have different tasks.

  1. God the Father is the ultimate source or cause of the universe (1 Corinthians 8:6; Revelation 4:11);  divine revelation (Revelation 1:1); salvation (John 3:16-17); and Jesus’ human works (John 5:17;14:10). The Father initiates all of these things.
  2. Jesus Christ the Son is the advocate through whom the Father does the following works: the creation and maintenance of the universe (1 Corinthians 8:6; John 1:3; Colossians 1:16-17); divine revelation (John 1:1,16:12-15; Matthew 11:27; Revelation 1:1); and salvation (2 Corinthians 5:19; Matthew 1:21; John 4:42). The Father does all these things through Jesus Christ the Son, who functions as His advocate/agent.
  3. The Holy Spirit is the means by whom the Father does the following works: creation and maintenance of the universe (Genesis 1:2; Job 26:13; Psalm 104:30); divine revelation (John 16:12-15;Ephesians 3:5;2 Peter 1:21); salvation (John 3:6;Titus 3:5;1 Peter 1:2); and Jesus’ works (Isaiah 61:1;Acts 10:38).  Thus, the Father does all these things by the power of the Holy Spirit.

The Trinity of God the Father, Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit

The doctrine of the Trinity has caused much division throughout the history of the entire Christian church, must of it causing Christians to fall of the narrow path and follow deceptive doctrines.  The main aspects of the Godhead are clearly explained in the Word of God that being;  God the Father who is a Spirit (John 4:24), God the Son and God the Holy Spirit are 3 separate Persons within the Godhead and this is the biblical doctrine of the Trinity.

Biblical Trinity vs. Catholic Trinity

Neither Catholics or Jehovah Witnesses understand the difference between 1st Century Biblical Trinity vs. 4th century Creedal Trinity and apparently neither do many Christians today who appear to be very confused on this issue.

  • The Catholic Trinity denies the Bible doctrine of the subordination of Jesus Christ Christ to God the Father.
  • The Catholic Trinity speaks where the Bible was silent in explaining how God is three in one.
  • The Catholic Trinity goes beyond the simple Bible truths of the deity of Jesus Christ and the personality of the Holy Spirit and speculates the “mechanical make-up” of God on almost an “atomic level”.

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Modalism God the Father, Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit are not manifestations:

There are some false teachings out there, one in particular called Modalism or Sabellianism.  Modalism is a:

Sabellius (fl. ca. 215) was a third century priest and theologian who most likely taught in Rome, but may have been an African from Libya. Basil and others call him a Libyan from Pentapolis, but this seems to rest on the fact that Pentapolis was a place where the teachings of Sabellius thrived, according to Dionysius of Alexandria, c. 260. What is known of Sabellius is drawn mostly from the polemical writings of his opponents.

Sabellius taught that God was single and indivisible, with Father, Son, and Holy Spirit being three modes or manifestations of one divine Person. A Sabellian modalist would say that the One God successively revealed Himself to man throughout time as the Father in Creation; the Son in Redemption; and the Spirit in Sanctification and Regeneration. (Because of this focus on God’s revelation of himself to man, Modalism is often confused with Economic Trinitarianism).  [Emphasis added]

However, Gregg Allison explains modalism was first, tt wasn’t started by a third-century teacher from Rome named Sabellius…but

“introduced by Praxeas in Rome, articulated by Noetus of Smyrna and his disciples Zephyrinus and Callistus (both bishops of Rome), and popularized by Sabellius”   —  Gregg Allison, Historical Theology (p. 235).

Also known as “modalistic monarchianism,” this heretical view:

“… held that there is one God who can be designated by three different names—‘Father,’ ‘Son,’ and ‘Holy Spirit’—at different times, but these three are not distinct persons. Instead they are different modes (thus, modalism) of the one God. Thus, God can be called ‘Father’ as the Creator of the world and Lawgiver; he can be called ‘Son’ as God incarnate in Jesus Christ; and he can be called ‘Holy Spirit’ as God in the church age. Accordingly, Jesus Christ is God and the Spirit is God, but they are not distinct persons.” (Ibid., 235–36). [Emphasis added]

Since the Councils of Nicaea (325) and other councils, modalism has been understood by everyone and by every major branch of orthodox Christianity to be heretical. -

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Does anyone still believe in Modalism ?

Well yes, Oneness Pentecostalism (also known as Apostolic Pentecostalism or One God Pentecostalism) refers to denominations and/or believers, all of whom believe in the  nontrinitarian theological doctrine of Oneness. This movement rose up around 1914 and claims an estimated 24 million followers today.

Father, Son, and Holy Spirit

Oneness teaching asserts that God is a singular spirit who is one person, not three divine persons, individuals or minds. “Father”, “Son” and “Holy Spirit” are merely titles reflecting the different personal manifestations of the One True God in the universe. When Oneness believers speak of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit, they see these as three personal manifestations of one being, one personal God:

Father: The title of God in parental relationship

Son of God: God incarnate in human flesh;[2] ”Son” refers to either the humanity and the deity of Jesus together, or to the humanity alone, but never to the deity alone[7]

Holy Spirit: The title of God in activity as Spirit

Oneness teachers often quote a phrase used by early pioneers of the movement — “God was manifested as the Father in creation, the Son in redemption, and the Holy Ghost in emanation.”

Oneness theology sees that when the one personal and omnipresent God manifests or reveals himself, it is in a personal way. Oneness theology sees the Father, Son and Holy Spirit as one transcendent, personal, omnipresent God manifesting himself in three personal and distinct ways or forms to redeem and sanctify sinful and lost humanity, and also that all the fullness of the deity resides fully in the person of Christ. (Col. 2:1-10) – Wiki Oneness Pentecostalism

and

Oneness Pentecostalism teaches that God is one Person, and that the Father (a spirit) is united with Jesus (a man) as the Son of God. However, Oneness Pentecostalism differs somewhat by rejecting sequential modalism, and by the full acceptance of the begotten humanity of the Son, not eternally begotten, who was the man Jesus and was born, crucified, and risen, and not the deity. This directly opposes Patripassianism and the pre-existence of the Son, which Sabellianism does not.

Oneness Pentecostals believe that Jesus was “Son” only when he became flesh on earth, but was the Father before being made man. They refer to the Father as the “Spirit” and the Son as the “Flesh”. But they believe that Jesus and the Father are one essential Person. Though operating as different “manifestations” or “modes”. Oneness Pentecostals reject the Trinity doctrine, viewing it as pagan and un-Scriptural, and hold to the Jesus’ Name doctrine with respect to baptisms. They are often referred to as “Modalists” or “Sabellians” or ”Jesus Only”. Oneness Pentecostalism can be compared to Sabellianism, or can be described as holding to a form of Sabellianism, as both are Nontrinitarian, and as both believe that Jesus was “Almighty God in the Flesh”, but they do not totally identify each other.  —http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sabellianism

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T D Jakes is a Modalist: 

T. D. Jakes is part of the Oneness Pentecostal movement.

• The Potter’s House website says this in their doctrinal statement:

“There is one God, Creator of all things, infinitely perfect, and eternally existing in three manifestations: Father, Son and Holy Spirit.”  [Emphasis added]

• According to a 2000 article from Christianity Today, when asked about the doctrine of the Trinity, T. D. Jakes responded:

TDJakes Understanding the Trinity: God the Father, Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit

“The Trinity, the term ‘Trinity,’ is not a biblical term, to begin with. It’s a theological description for something that is so beyond human comprehension that I’m not sure that we can totally hold God to a numerical system. The Lord said, “Behold, O Israel, the Lord thy God is one, and beside him there is no other.” When God got ready to make a man that looked like him, he didn’t make three. He made one man. However, that one man had three parts. He was body, soul, and spirit. We have one God, but he is Father in creation, Son in redemption, and Holy Spirit in regeneration.”  [Emphasis added]

• In a response to the above Christianity Today article (also from 2000), Jakes used this illustration to define his understanding of the Godhead:

“Though no human illustration perfectly fits the Divine, it is similar to ice, water and steam: three separate forms, yet all H²O. Each element can co-exist, each has distinguishing characteristics and functions, but all have sameness.”  [Emphasis added]

Later, in that same article, Jakes denied that his use of the word “manifestations” was rooted in modalism:

“The language in the doctrinal statement of our ministry that refers to the Trinity of the Godhead as “manifestations” does not derive from modalism. The Apostle Paul himself used this term referring to the Godhead in 1 Timothy 3:15, 1 Corinthians 12:7, and 1 John 3:5-8 [sic]. Peter also used the term in 1 Peter 1:20. Can this word now be heresy when it is a direct quote from the Pauline epistles and used elsewhere in the New Testament?”

• However, many Christians were not convinced. In a 2001 article, again in Christianity Today,  TD  Jakes says:

“And God said, ‘Let us. Let usssssss … ‘” says Jakes, and then digresses: ” … One God, but manifest in … three different ways, Father in creation, Son in redemption, Holy Spirit in regeneration. And God said, ‘Let usssssss … ‘”  [Emphasis added]

There we have it again, modalism, this is the view of those in off Oneness Pentecostals, which describes TD Jakes.

• A 2002 Christianity Today article further explained that evangelicals have always regarded Oneness Pentecostalism as being outside the boundaries of orthodox Christianity, noting that “orthodox Christian theologians believe Oneness theology is guilty of the heresy of modalism.”

• In a more recent interview –  2010 interview -  T. D. Jakes suggests that he wants to distance himself from Oneness Pentecostalism. However, he is still very confused when it comes to the Trinity. After prancing around the issue, Jakes finally comes out and says says:

“I believe in the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. I believe that they are three Persons. I believe that in a way that Persons is a limited word for the Godhead. And even those who adhere to that say that to be true. But I think the issue is that they are distinctive. There are things that can be said about the Father that couldn’t be said about the Son and then the Holy Spirit… I believe that. I’ve grown into that, but I came into a Pentecostal church that happened to be Oneness. They loved me at a time that my father died. I became friends with them and in covenant with them and embraced them. And though I don’t agree with everything, and they don’t agree with everything, they’re evolving as a people.’

It actually doesn’t matter what TD Jakes says, he is still a false teacher and is unbiblical on a multitude of other issues besides this issue.   Another things is this, people don’t “evolve”.  As a born again Christian you know the truth as the Holy Spirit tells you what is wrong and what is right and He will not lie to you about how the Trinity is comprised; that being 3 separate co-existing, co-external Persons:  God the Father, Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit as one God.

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pixel Understanding the Trinity: God the Father, Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit

96 comments to Understanding the Trinity: God the Father, Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit

  • Andrew

    [Edited: Commented moved from Calvinists Justify the Known Murderer, John Calvin.]
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    Liewe Sheugnet, jy sê Servetus was hoofsaaklik doodgemaak omdat hy die drie-eenheid van God, wat algemeen aanvaar was daardie dae soos nou teëgestaan het.
    Dan sê jy verder hy, Servetus het die Woord van God reg verstaan en aanvaar dat God een is, en nie die populêre drie nie! Verstaan ek jou nou reg. Servetus is vermoor omdat hy die Woord REG verstaan het! Calvyn was ‘n
    gewetenlose moordenaar, “finish en klaar.”
    Terloops, Paulus verklaar in Efese 4:5 “een Here, een geloof en een doop.” Jy kan nie net glo wat jy wil nie. Verder “Alles wat jy doen in woord of in daad, doen dit in die Naam van die Here Jesus, en dank God die Vader deur Hom.” hy Servetus was na my beskeie mening in alle opsigte soos die doop en sg. uitverkiesing, baie nader aan die waarheid as Calvyn.

  • [Edited: Commented moved from Calvinists Justify the Known Murderer, John Calvin.]
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    Andrew wrote:

    Sheugnet, het jy geweet dat die “God in drie persone” konsep deur ‘n songod aanbidder met die naam van Konstantyn ‘n Romeinse Keiser, geproklameer en bekragtig is?
    Wil jy liewer glo wat hy en sy trawante wat miljoene Christene wat nie hul knie voor Baal wou buig, nie op die wreedste manier denkbaar vermoor het? Wat lees ons in Deut.6:4 Hoor Israel die HERE onse GOD is ‘n enige HERE. In Engels Hear oh Israel the LORD our GOD is One LORD. Dan aan die einde, met Sy wederkoms lees ons in Sagaria 14:5+9 “Dan sal die HERE my God kom, al die heiliges met u. (9) En die HERE sal Koning wees oor die hele aarde; in die dag sal die HERE een wees, en sy Naam een.” Verder sê Jesus in Joh.17:3 “En dit is die ewige lewe, dat hulle U ken, Die einige waaragtige God, en Jesus Christus wat U gestuur het.” Om saam te vat Calvyn was indirek verantwoordelik vir die dood van digby ‘n honderd persone, kom ons laat hom oor aan God se oordeel.

    Andrew, hoe sou jy hierdie gedeelte in die Skrif verklaar:

    Maar Jesus het geantwoord en vir hom gesê: Laat dit nou toe, want só pas dit ons om alle geregtigheid te vervul. Daarna het hy Hom toegelaat. En nadat Jesus [DIE SEUN VAN GOD DIE VADER] gedoop was, het Hy dadelik uit die water opgeklim, en meteens gaan die hemele vir Hom oop, en Hy sien die Gees van God [DIE HEILIGE GEES] soos ‘n duif neerdaal en op Hom kom. En daar kom ‘n stem uit die hemele [GOD DIE VADER] wat sê: Dit is my geliefde Seun in wie Ek ‘n welbehae het. (Mat 3:15-17)

    Of was Jesus ‘n buikspreker om sy stem soos die van ‘n Vader uit die hemel te laat hoor terwyl Hy hier op aarde in die water gedoop is?

  • Andrew on Baptism of Jesus..

    [Edited: Commented moved from Calvinists Justify the Known Murderer, John Calvin.]
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    Dear Thomas, Of course it was the voice of the Amighty God, in a way proclaiming Himself as Father of His Son Jesus!
    The baptism of God’s Holy Spirit that came like a dove on Jesus was ordained by God in fulfilling ao.:Gal.2:9 , “For in Him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.”

    1Tim. 2:5, For there are one God, and one mediator between God and men, the MAN CHRIST JESUS. To mention but a few of the many applicable scriptures. I hope this answer your Question. Kind regards.

  • [Edited: Commented moved from Calvinists Justify the Known Murderer, John Calvin.]
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    Hi Andrew,

    You said:

    Dear Thomas, Of course it was the voice of the Almighty God, in a way proclaiming Himself as Father of His Son Jesus!

    You are dodging my questions. You are not going to get away with it so easily. What do you mean by “the voice of the Almighty God, in a way proclaiming Himself as Father of His Son Jesus?” The Bible never says that Almighty God merely proclaims Himself in a way to be the Father of his Son, Jesus Christ. Are you saying that God is a single entity who manifests Himself randomly as Father, Son and Holy Ghost? That’s heresy. It sounds more like someone morphing himself into something else and back again to something original.

    God the Father is a Person separate from the Son and the Holy Ghost, just as the Son and the Holy Spirit are separate Persons from the Father and one another. And yet, they are ONE. In Genesis 1:26 we read: “And God said, Let US make man in OUR image, after our likeness: . . .” To whom do the “US” and “OUR” refer to – a single Person who randomly morphs Himself into a Father, then into a Son and then again into the “Holy Spirit and then back again into a Father?

    I notice that you’ve changed “is” into “are” in your quote from 1 Timothy 2:5. Was it on purpose? In any case, Paul does not say there is only one God in the sense of Him being a single entity who randomly manifests himself as Father, Son and Holy Ghost. He is simply saying that there is only one God and beside Him there is no other who is able to save lost sinners. In the very next verse he confirms that this One God is the only One who wants all people to be saved.

    What is the danger of anti-Trinitarianism. Look at John 17:3

    And this is eternal life, that they know you the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent.

    Notice carefully that your and mine and everyone elses eternal destiny is determined by our knowledge of how He reveals Himself to us in his Word. How does He reveal Himself? Notice the little word “and” in “this is eternal life, that they know you the only true God, AND Jesus Christ whom you have sent.” No one can claim to be saved when they say they know God as a single Person who manifests Himself randomly in three different offices – Father, Son and Holy Ghost. John clearly says we must believe in God the Father AND Jesus Christ in order to be saved – two distincts Persons and yet ONE God.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    [Edited: Commented moved from Calvinists Justify the Known Murderer, John Calvin.]
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    Andrew

    Indeed, listen to what Thomas is saying – this is the truth of the matter.

  • Andrew on Jesus Baptism

    [Edited: Commented moved from Calvinists Justify the Known Murderer, John Calvin.]
    —————-

    Liewe Thomas, Dit lyk vir my of jy meer te sê het oor die drie woorde wat net terloops was. En nee, omdat my Engelse grammatika nie meer so goed is as voorheen nie, was dit slegs so ‘n fout.Waarom lewer jy nie liewers kommentaar op die skrifte wat ek genoem het nie.Op die opmerking (are/is) wat jy gemaak het sal ek jou vergewe. Antwoord my asb. een vraag:Die HERE GOD wat ek dien is GEES!
    Jy sê die Vader is die 1ste Persoon in die
    3 eenheid. Beskryf asb sy BEELD, hoe lyk God?

  • Thomas Lessing

    [Edited: Commented moved from Calvinists Justify the Known Murderer, John Calvin.]
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    Andrew on Jesus Baptism wrote:

    Op die opmerking (are/is) wat jy gemaak het sal ek jou vergewe.

    Die rede waarom ek jou gevra het of jy doelbewus “are” pleks van “is” gebruik het, is omdat jou waarskynlike fout die essensie van die Drie-eenheid beskrywe – nl. drie persone (meervoud) in EEN.

    Andrew on Jesus Baptism wrote:

    Antwoord my asb. een vraag: Die HERE GOD wat ek dien is GEES! Jy sê die Vader is die 1ste Persoon in die 3 eenheid. Beskryf asb sy BEELD, hoe lyk God?

    Jy vra my om iets te doen wat niemand nog ooit kon doen nie, nl om God die Vader te beskrywe. Niemand het God die Vader nog ooit gesien nie. Nog net een mens het Hom van agter gesien en dit was Moses. Jy weet net so goed soos ek dat enigiemand wat God die Vader sou sien, onmiddellik dood neer sou val. Moses het nie dood neergeval nie omdat God hom in ‘n gekliefde rots gesit en sy hand oor hom geplaas het. Die gekliefde rots was ‘n toonbeeld van Jesus self wat aan die kruis vir ons geklief is. Dit beteken dat alleenlik diegene wat deur wedergeboorte in Jesus (die gekliefde Rots) geplaas is, God die Vader kan “sien” (kan ken). Ons sien sy werke, ons hoor sy woorde deur sy Seun, die Woord van God wat vlees geword het.

    Toe Filippus Jesus vra “Toon ons die Vader” en Jesus Hom geantwoord het “Ek is so lankal by julle, en het jy My nie geken nie, Filippus? Hy wat My gesien het, het die Vader gesien.” het Hy nie bedoel dat Hy die Vader self in liggaamlike gedaante was of ‘n manifestasie van die Vader was nie. Jesus kon so sê omdat Hy en die Vader een is (een in karakter en persoonlikheid), omdat die woorde wat HY tot hulle gespreek het, woorde van sy Vader was, en omdat die wonderwerke wat Hy gedoen het, werke was wat die Vader deur Hom gedoen het.

    God is nie een God wat Hom in drie Persone manifesteer nie. Hy is Een God in drie afsonderlike en onderskeibare Persone, nl. God die Vader, God die Seun en God die Heilige Gees. Dit is nie ‘n leerstelling wat Konstantyn opgetower het nie. Dis ‘n leerstelling wat in die Bybel voorkom.

  • John Chingford

    [Edited: Commented moved from Calvinists Justify the Known Murderer, John Calvin.]
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    Hi Thomas,

    Thanks for all your contributions to this blog.

    I have a question to you.

    Your reply to Andrew said:

    “Are you saying that God is a single entity who manifests Himself randomly as Father, Son and Holy Ghost? That’s heresy. It sounds more like someone morphing himself into something else and back again to something original.”

    Isn’t that a bit harsh to call it heresy. The trinity/unity/oneness of God is a mystery that few (if any) have ever really understood. What Andrew said didn’t seem to be heresy. I think you may have misunderstood him. I will explain why.

    I know of many scriptures (I will list just a few) that say that Jesus is the Father in human form appearing as the Son. Let me ask you; who created the heavens and the Earth?

    Genesis 1 tells us it was God (Elohim, meaning the plurality of God’s being). Yet John 1 says that it was Jesus who created the Heavens and the Earth. “in HIM all things were made and nothing was made that was made except through HIM“.

    Then consider that Paul stated that in Jesus, the Godhead (includes the Father) dwelt in bodily form ” For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily”. Col 2:9

    ThenPaul is referring to Jesus when he said in Col 1:16-17 “For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: And he is before all things, and by him all things consist”

    Jesus (Himself) said to Philip “when you see me you see the Father”. Jesus said to the Jewish leaders “I and the Father are ONE”. Then John 14:10 “I am IN the Father and the Father is IN me”.

    How do you interpret these scriptures? There are many more similar to these!

    As I understand it, there ARE 3 manifestations (NOT morphs) of the ONE true God. These manifestations (persons) are indivisible and all part of the WHOLE make up of the ONE God.

  • Rob Diamond

    [Edited: Commented moved from Calvinists Justify the Known Murderer, John Calvin.]
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    John,

    It sounds to me like you are promoting modalism.

  • Robbie

    [Edited: Commented moved from Calvinists Justify the Known Murderer, John Calvin.]
    —————-

    WOW! this is interesting and Debs/guys, I think we have to start a new topic? :-)

    I was taught in the DRC that one day when we enter heaven, we shall see three different persons. Of course, coming from the DRC it raised me eyebrows.

    Ok, now I am at:
    one essence three persons… or one essence three manifestations?

    I also ask myself.. At the judgement seat – If the judge will be on the throne, where will my lawyer be?

    Don’t let me stop you guys… I am following!

  • [Edited: Commented moved from Calvinists Justify the Known Murderer, John Calvin.]
    —————-

    Hi John,

    Thank you for your very interesting and honest comment.

    We learn from Scripture that God IS love (the very essence of love) (1 John 4:8; 1 John 4:16). To express love someone else apart from yourself must exist. Loving yourself is not really love, is it? That’s why God said: “It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him.” Here we have two persons and yet in marriage they become one flesh (Genesis 2:24; Matthew 19:6). The most profound expression of love is when two distinct and separate persons are united in a bond of love as one. Do I understand it? No! Can I explain it? No! Then why should I believe it? Well, because Gods says so and He cannot lie (Numbers 23:19).

    Let’s assume that, as you say, there are 3 manifestations of the ONE true God. In what way, would you say, do these 3 manifestations express their love for one another? The only way to express love for one another then, would be when the ONE true God manifests all three – God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit – at the same time. But that seems to be out of the question because love for a manifestation is not true love, or is it? Let’s assume your wife (I don’t know whether you are married) is able to manifest herself in some other way than what she usually appears to you (let’s for argument’s sake say, as Mary instead of Jane). Now be honest, would you be able to love her manifestation in the form of Jane? I really don’t think so. You can only love the real McCoy, the person called Mary.

    The point I’m trying to make is that the notion of God being ONE God who manifests Himself randomly in three ways, is an outright denial that GOD IS LOVE (the essence of love). God can only be the essence of love when He has someone else (another Person), distinct from Himself to love, and yet who are ONE. Think of it in this way: If God is not the essence of love (in the sense of Him being One God but three separate Persons who love one another as Persons and not merely as manifestations) then He could never have said: “For God so loved the world . . . .” Do you now see that it jeopardizes the entire doctrine of salvation? Is that not heresy?

  • [Edited: Commented moved from Calvinists Justify the Known Murderer, John Calvin.]
    —————-

    John Chingford wrote:

    I know of many scriptures (I will list just a few) that say that Jesus is the Father in human form appearing as the Son. Let me ask you; who created the heavens and the Earth?

    According to Genesis 1 God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit (three distinct Persons in ONE) were all involved in the creation of the cosmos. The cosmos was created BY (through) Him but both the Father and the Holy Spirit were involved. The word for “by” is “en” which means to be instrumental in the doing of something. It does not mean that He alone created the cosmos.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    [Edited: Commented moved from Calvinists Justify the Known Murderer, John Calvin.]
    —————-

    Robbie

    Nope the DRC was correct, its 3 different persons, but they are all ONE. They were all there at the beginning of creation. God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit. God the Father is a person in Spirit form, Jesus is a person and the Holy Spirit is a person, but together they are all ONE GOD.

    They are not manifestations or essences of eachother, this is totally and utterly incorrect.

    I will open a new topic for this :)

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    [Edited: Commented moved from Calvinists Justify the Known Murderer, John Calvin.]
    —————-

    Rob

    You are right, this is indeed Modalism they are speaking about and it is heresy, but it is unfortunately a COMMON error among many Christians who just don’t understand or who have never taken the time to understand the Godhead. And they should understand it, because it’s important, because if you continue and accept this teaching it will lead you into all sorts of trouble down the line.

  • John Chingford

    [Edited: Commented moved from Calvinists Justify the Known Murderer, John Calvin.]
    —————-

    Hi Thomas

    Thanks for your answers. However, you have not addressed everything I wrote.

    Question 1:
    How do you interpret Col 1:16-17 “For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: ALL THINGS were created by HIM, and for HIM: And he is before all things, and by HIM ALL THINGS consist” (Bold and uppercase added by me so that you can see what I am trying to highlight).

    I am not trying to promote anything – just simply quoting scripture which implies that Jesus was the human manifestation of the Trinity whilst He walked the Earth. I have never even heard of modism before. I am simply studying the scriptures and seeking understanding – especially it is relevant when witnessing to Muslims and Jews.

    Here is another question:

    Question 2:
    Are there any scripture verses which ACTUALLY use the word “persons” when it is referring to the trinity? Is that word used in scripture or is it just a word that someone in church history came up with, that we have simply accepted without questioning it? If it is not in scripture (I cannot recall ever seeing it) then why are we using it as if fact? By calling God 3 persons it does tend to indicate 3 God’s no matter how you try to explain it. However, if God is ONE God made up of 3 manifestations (much like we are made up of body, soul and spirit) then it would make more sense.

    Please be careful in using the word heresy. As I understand it heresy means you are teaching another way to heaven other than through Jesus by faith through grace alone. It is NOT a requisite to understand the Trinity 100% to get to heaven otherwise NONE of us would get there. To teach that you DO need it as a requisite WOULD BE heresy.

  • Andrew on baptim

    [Edited: Commented moved from Calvinists Justify the Known Murderer, John Calvin.]
    —————-

    Liewe Thomas, die wyse wat julle die drie-eenheid vertolk en ook doop volgens Mat. 28:19 is AANVAARBAAR vir die Roomse Kerk met Haar reputasie.
    Ek is dankbaar dat die eenheid van die Godheid en ook die doop deur onderdompeling, in die Naam van Jesus Christus, soos deur Paulus, Petrus en al die ander apostels beoefen
    deur DIE ROOMSE KATOLIEKE VERWERP WORD

  • [Edited: Commented moved from Calvinists Justify the Known Murderer, John Calvin.]
    —————-

    John Chingford wrote:

    Please be careful in using the word heresy. As I understand it heresy means you are teaching another way to heaven other than through Jesus by faith through grace alone. It is NOT a requisite to understand the Trinity 100% to get to heaven otherwise NONE of us would get there. To teach that you DO need it as a requisite WOULD BE heresy.

    I so desperately tried to convince you that God could not have revealed Himself as the essence of love if their had only been three manifestations of the ONE true God instead of three separate and distinct Persons in the Godhead. Surely, manifestations of the same ONE Person cannot show forth love. How would you suggest should three manifestations of the same Person love one another. It’s impossible. I seemed to have failed to convince you. So, let’s try something else. I have already used the same argument in Afrikaans with Andrew but he too rejects it.

    In John 17:3 Jesus says: “And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, AND Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.” Was it merely a manifestation of Jesus Christ as the Father who sent Jesus Christ to earth or was it a distinctly separate Person, Called God the Father, who sent His Son to earth? Surely the word “and” in “And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, . . .” proves that there are at least two distinct Persons involved in the salvation of mankind,i.e. God the Father and Jesus Christ whom He sent.

    Let’s interpret the verse in the way you believe. “And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true manifestation of God, AND Jesus Christ, a manifestation of the Father who sent a manifestation of Himself, Jesus Christ.” If Jesus spoke the truth when He said “And this is eternal life, that they might know thee (a distinct and separate Person called God the Father) the only true God, AND Jesus Christ (a distinct and separate Person who is His Son), who thou hast sent” then we have a big problem when people believe otherwise. This is indeed teaching another way to heaven because it is not the Jesus of the Bible but another Jesus who manifests Himself in three different Persons who are not distinct and separate Persons but merely three manifestations. NO one can understand the Trinity 100% but we must at least know how God reveals Himself to us and what one must believe in order to be saved, and John 17:3 tells us what to believe.

  • Sharon

    1John 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.
    1John 5:8 And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.

    The Word doesn’t get plainer than that. God is triune and He created us to be triune as in Body, Soul and Spirit. Those three make up…ME

    I am trying to remember the exact term and if it comes to me I’ll post it.

    Only one part of the Trinity can be here on Earth at a time. Jesus said, in John16:7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send Him unto you. That verse seems to validate my point.

    Any way…Great Topic!

  • Sharon

    To the “Deb-ster” may I ask why there are some things posted here that are either Dutch or German? Just wondering.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Hey Sharon

    Ahhh because many people speak Afrikaans (Dutch) in South Africa so some articles are written in Afrikaans, but we are getting them translated into English :) So hang ten!

  • What do Modalists do with the following verses?

    So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God. (Mark 16:19)

    Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear. (Acts 2:33)

    But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God, Acts 7:55)

    Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us. Romans 8:34)

    If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God. (Colossians 3:1)

    But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God; (Hebrews 10:12)

    Who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God; angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him. (1 Peter 3:22)

    Jesus cannot possibly sit at his own right hand.

  • John Chingford

    Hi Thomas

    You still have not answered my 2 specific questions. You are simply avoiding the questions. Why so evasive?

    Why are you not answering my specific questions? Your argument about the “3 persons” is that the Godhead needs 3 in order to express love. Where does it say that in the Bible? Of course God IS love but His whole nature of love cannot be divided. He is love which means everything He is, is love ie Father, Son and Holy Spirit are full of the ONE undivided love. Sorry, I do not get your argument.

    Please do not assume I believe in modalism. I do not! All I am doing is asking how you understand the scripture verses I quoted. I am happy to learn and be persuaded but need to be persuaded by scripture NOT by human intellectual argument.

    Firstly, I AM NOT saying that God splits Himself up into different manifestations. Maybe the word manifestation is not the best word to use. I used it for want of a better word. The word “manifestation” is a biblical word, however, NOWHERE will you find the Bible calling the trinity “3 PERSONS”. This is why I refuse to use that word when describing God.

    When you see the Father you see the Son and the Holy Spirit. As Jesus said, when you see the Son you see the Father (and the Holy Spirit). The way you described God it DOES sound like you believe in 3 completely separate entities ie 3 Gods. You then suggest that I am not saved because I believe in the wrong Jesus.

    I searched on that word modalism. This is what Theopedia says “Modalism thus denies the basic distinctiveness and coexistence of the three persons of the Trinity” Modalism was condemned by Tertullian (c. 213, it was condemned as heresy by Dionysius, bishop of Rome (c. 262)”

    Well….. Firstly, I do not deny the distinctiveness and coexistence of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. However, I question the use of the word “persons” because it is NOT in the Bible.

    Next, look at the two who did the condemning. One was one of the church fathers around the time when gnosticism had infiltrated the church. Then we have the Bishop of Rome saying it was heresy. Are we to trust the authority of the church of Rome over whether it is heresy or not? I think not!

    You suggest that we need more than just believing in Jesus as the Son of God who takes our sins away washed in His blood and that salvation is by grace through faith alone. You are adding intellectual understanding on the Trinity as a requisite to salvation. Sorry, but I do not see that requisite mentioned in the Bible.

    You quote from John 17:3 to persuade me, which says “And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent”

    saying that that proves that you need to believe the right things about God and Jesus before we can be saved. Actually, that verse is not talking about how to be saved but on the benefits after being saved i.e an eternal relationship with God through Jesus. We can ONLY know God after our sins have been forgiven by grace through faith by receiving Jesus.

    Please Thomas, please answer my specific questions without skating round the question. I am very keen to understand how we apply the verses I quoted to the 3 separate persons scenario:

    ie, Col 2:9, Col 1:16-17, John 14:10 and John 1:1-3

    How do we explain to Muslims and Jews the Trinity in a way that persuades them that we DO NOT believe in 3 Gods? With Jews it is easier because we can show the Trinity in the OT, but how do we convince muslims who reject Christ as being God because they believe there cannot be more than one God?

  • Hi John,

    Haven’t you read Deborah’s article? It explains it all.

    John bare witness of him, and cried, saying, This was he of whom I spake, He that cometh after me is preferred before me: for he was before me. And of his fulness have all we received, and grace for grace. (Joh 1:15-16).

    The word “plērōma” (fullness) used above is the very same word used in Colossians 2:9. The early gnostics did not believe that Jesus was fully God and fully man. As you may know they argued that he was an angel whose body was only “apparent.” John simply says that Jesus is God equal to God the Father and God the Holy Spirit. He has the very same attributes as his Father and the Holy Spirit so that when the disciples looked at Him they could actually see both the Father and the Holy Spirit. There is nothing in and of the Father and the Holy Spirit that is not in and of Jesus Christ. They are all God (three separate Persons). “Let us (plural) make man in our (plural) image (singular), after our likeness (singular).” – three distinct, co-equal and separate Persons who all have the exact same image (attributes). If “us” and “our” do not refer to separate Persons, then we’d better go back to school to learn how to understand and interpret the English language. It does not use the word “persons” but surely it implies it, don’t you think? It does not mean that Jesus Christ was merely a mode, representation, or manifestation of God the Father and God the Holy Spirit.

    You may not have accepted or understood my example of love but surely you must know that only when there are at least two separate and distinct persons around can there be love. Manifestations or modes of a single person cannot express true love. Must it say so in so many words in the Bible before you can understand it? God does not want us to take everything at face value; He also wants you to think logically.

    Colossians 1:16-17. Please note the word “by” (en) which explains everything. It means to be the “instrumental cause” in creation. Hebrews 1:1-2 will help us to understand it more fully.

    God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds; Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high; (Heb 1:1-3).

    It simply means that God the Father is the ultimate Source (efficient Cause) and Jesus Christ, the Son, is the mediating Cause of the cosmos.

    John 1:1-3: Here again is the word “by” (en) which I explained in the above paragraph. By the way, this passage proves beyond any doubt that two Persons were involved in the creation of the cosmos. The Word is Jesus Christ who was with God the Father from the beginning. “In the beginning was the Word (Jesus Christ), and the Word (Jesus Christ) was with God (God the Father), and the Word was [also] God (Jesus Christ).

    I have seen and heard many testimonies of Muslims who’d been saved by the grace of God and nearly all of them tell the same story. The one thing, they say, that drew them to Christ was the love they saw between Christian brethren and Christian husbands and their wives (between persons and NOT between modes or manifestations of single entities). Islam, they admit, is a religion of hatred. So maybe you should explain to them what I tried to explain to you about the necessity to have at least two distinct and separate persons for love to exist.

    You said:

    You quote from John 17:3 to persuade me, which says “And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent”

    saying that that proves that you need to believe the right things about God and Jesus before we can be saved. Actually, that verse is not talking about how to be saved but on the benefits after being saved i.e an eternal relationship with God through Jesus. We can ONLY know God after our sins have been forgiven by grace through faith by receiving Jesus.

    Many people claim to be saved and still do not know God as He has revealed Himself in Scripture – a Triune God comprising three distinct, separate and co-equal Persons called God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit. Jesus said that it is the Truth that sets sinners free. Whoever rejects the Truth concerning the Triune God’s revelation of Himself (Father, Son and Holy Spirit) cannot claim to be saved. They do not believe in the God of the Bible but another God who transforms himself into a father, then into a son and then into a holy spirit.

    But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ. For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him. (2 Corinthians 11:3-4)

  • John Chingford

    Wait a minute.

    I have NEVER stated that God transforms Himself into a father, then into a Son then into the Holy Spirit. That is not possible. I stated that God DOES NOT split Himself up. He has always been, IS and always will be Father, Son and Holy Spirit. It is IMPOSSIBLE for Him to be anything other than all 3 ALL the time. When you see the Father, you also see the Son and the Holy Spirit. When you see the Son, you also see the Father and the Holy Spirit, When You see the Holy Spirit He always reveals the Father and the Son.

    You are using human reasoning when you say that “us”, “we” etc means that God is 3 “PERSONS”. You are using human (English) language to explain that God therefore must be made up of persons. If you are talking about human beings then I would agree, but we are talking about the unfathomable, Living, eternal, almighty God which human words are so limited in describing. You cannot liken God to a human being by calling Him “persons”. The word person is linked to a name we call human beings – NOT God!

    By the way, I have learnt quite a bit of hebrew and do understand the plurality of God in the book of Genesis. However, we also are a plurality of body, soul and spirit. Sometimes we also correctly sometimes say “let us” when talking about ourself to someone else. David (the psalmist) often tried to encourage his soul to praise God “all that is within me”. It does not necessarily mean that there were 3 persons present (could be but not definitely meant in the text). When we talk to our soul to bless the Lord are we 3 persons or one person?

    As I say, you are using your own intellectual reasoning and NOT the Word of God to describe God.

    Let us clarify:

    1. Do I believe that Jesus is the Son of God, God incarnate? YES!!! (because He said so, although I am limited in understanding fully what that actually means)
    2. Do I believe that Jesus came from God? YES!!!
    3. Do I believe that He is an undivided, co equal, co eternal part of the Godhead? YES!!!
    4. Do I believe that He paid the price for my sins? YES!!!
    5. Do I believe that Jesus is the only way to the Father? YES!!!
    6. Do I believe that salvation can be found in no other name than in Jesus? YES!!!
    7. Do I believe in the Trinity (Father, Son and Holy Spirit)? YES!!! (although I do not fully understand it in the light of the verses I quoted)
    8. Do I believe these things with all my heart and mind? YES!!!
    9. Do I believe that my sins (sinful nature) had separated me from God? YES!!!
    10. Did I accept that I needed salvation and receive Jesus as my Saviour? YES!!!
    11. Was I transformed into a child of God eternally secure in my salvation? YES!!!

    Jesus said “suffer the little children to come unto me, for such belongs the kingdom of God”. How on Earth do you expect children to understand the Godhead? All that is required is simple childlike faith in what Jesus said!!!

    According to the Bible, I AM saved. NOWHERE does the Bible teach that you need to be fully correct in your understanding of the Godhead to be saved. If you are teaching that, then you are ADDING to the Word of God and likely to bring multitudes of believers into the false notion that they might not be saved. In a sense you are turning God’s grace into a “works” mentality, ie we have to understand in our own intellectual abilities by our own efforts rather than believing in the simple gospel.

    You also quoted from John 1:1-3 by ADDING the word “also”. That is exactly what the JW’s do in their false New World translation. It DOES not say that the Word was ALSO God. It says that the Word WAS GOD.

    Three but ONE. “The Word was with God (could possibly mean ‘in God’?) and the Word WAS GOD”. Jesus said that He was in the Father and the Father was in Him. So “with” or “in” is possibly the same thing. I am not stating it as fact because I do not know but surely it IS a possibility, in the light of many other Bible passages.

  • Hi John,

    You said:

    I have NEVER stated that God transforms Himself into a father, then into a Son then into the Holy Spirit. That is not possible. I stated that God DOES NOT split Himself up. He has always been, IS and always will be Father, Son and Holy Spirit. It is IMPOSSIBLE for Him to be anything other than all 3 ALL the time

    Where was the Father when Jesus was in the flesh on earth?

    Of course a child cannot understand fully the Trinity (and neither do we as adults). Nevertheless, we can know and understand Him (the Trinity) in the light of the revelation He has given of Himself in his Word. John 1:1 clearly says that the WORD (Jesus Christ) was WITH God. Does that mean He was with Himself? I included the word “also” to show that the WORD (Jesus Christ) – who was WITH the Father since time immemorial, was ALWAYS with the Father which, if you look at it logically – MUST therefore ALSO be God, co-equal with His Father. If the WORD is eternal and has ALWAYS been WITH God, then He must be God Himself. You even admitted yourself that Jesus Christ is God, co-equal to his Father. You cannot be equal to someone while you are that person himself. One can only be equal to someone else as a distinct and separate personage.

    You said:

    I stated that God DOES NOT split Himself up. He has always been, IS and always will be Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

    If Jesus has always been Father, Son and Holy Spirit without being a distinct and separate Person, why did He say the following:

    And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come. (Matthew 12:32)

    It doesn’t make sense to say:

    And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man (who IS and always will be the Holy Spirit), it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost (who IS and has always been the Son), it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come. (Matthew 12:32)

    I never said or even suggested that you are not saved. I said that anyone who does not believe as the Scriptures have said are in danger of following another Jesus.

    First you accuse me of using human reasoning and then you use a human (spirit, soul and body) to describe your view of God the Trinity. That’s not kosher.

  • Paul (Continue in his Word)

    I find this conversation very interesting.
    I believe this issue about the identity of God trumps everything. It defines the fundamental premise of the Christian faith.
    Thomas is right in saying that Eternal Life (salvation) is KNOWING the Only True God, and the Man Jesus Christ whom HE has sent (John 17:3).
    We have to be clear about the exact identity of the great God and Savior Jesus Christ (Titus 2:13) we believe in:
    -Is He the incarnation of the Only One and tru God, without distinction of persons? (Oneness)
    -Is He the incarnation of the Second Person of the Trinity of Three Persons in One God? (Trinitarianism)

    I argue that these are two diametrically opposed faiths if I may put it that way. It cannot be one and the other. So we must choose.

    Now, what do Oneness believers really believe?
    I found this definition on the web:

    THE DEFINITION OF ONENESS

    ——————————————————————————–

    (Excerpt by permission from author from the book, Oneness and Trinity A.D. 100-300, by David K. Bernard, Word Aflame Press [ISBN- 0-932581-81-1], 1991).

    ——————————————————————————–

    “The doctrine of Oneness can be stated in two affirmations:

    God is absolutely one with no distinction of persons (Deut. 6:4; Gal. 3:20).

    Jesus Christ is all the fullness of the Godhead incarnate (John 20:28; Colossians 2:9).

    “All the names and titles of the Deity, such as God, Jehovah, Lord, Father, Word, and Holy Spirit, refer to one and the same being. These various names and titles simply denote manifestations, roles, relationships to humanity, modes of activity, or aspects of God’s self-revelation.

    “All these designations of the Deity apply to Jesus, and all aspects of the divine personality are manifested in Him. Jesus is God, or Jehovah, incarnate (Isa. 9:6; 40:9: John 8:58; 20:28; II Cor. 5:19; Col. 2:9; I Timothy 3:16; Titus 2:13).

    “Jesus is the Father incarnate (Isaiah 9:6; 63:16; John 10:30; 14:9-11; Rev. 21:6-7). The Holy Spirit is the Spirit that was incarnated in Jesus and is Jesus in Spirit form (John 14:16-18; Romans 8:9-11; Philippians 1:19; Col. 1:27).

    “The Oneness doctrine recognizes that the Bible reveals God as the Father, in the Son, and as the Holy Spirit. The One God is the Father of all creation, Father of the only begotten Son, and Father of born- again believers. (See Deut. 32:6; Malachi 2:10; Galatians 4:6; Hebrews 1:5; 12:9).

    “The title of Son refers to God’s incarnation. The man Christ was literally conceived by the Spirit of God and was therefore the Son of God (Matthew 1:18-20; Luke 1:35). The title of Son sometimes focuses solely on the humanity of Christ, as in ‘the death of His Son’ (Romans 5:10). Sometimes it encompasses both His deity and humanity, as in ‘Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven’ (Matthew 26:64). It is never used apart from God’s incarnation, however; it never refers to deity alone.

    “The terms ‘God the Son’ and ‘eternal Son’ are nonbiblical; the Bible instead speaks of the ‘Son of God’ and the ‘only begotten Son’. The Son is not eternally begotten by some incomprehensible, ongoing process; rather, the Son was begotten by the miraculous work of the Holy Spirit in the womb of Mary. The Son had a beginning, namely, at the incarnation (Luke 1:35; Galatians 4:4; Hebrews 1:5-6).

    “There is a real distinction between God and Son – not a distinction of two divine persons, but a distinction between the eternal Spirit of God and the authentic human being in whom God was fully incarnate. While Jesus was both God and man at the same time, sometimes He spoke or acted from the human viewpoint and sometimes from the divine viewpoint. As Father, He sometimes spoke from His divine self-awareness; as Son, he sometimes spoke from His human self-awareness. As a man, He prayed to, related to, and submitted to God as all humans should do. At the same time, God dwelt in and revealed Himself in that man with His undiminished character, nature, power and authority.

    “In John 1, the Word is God’s self-revelation, self-expression, or self-disclosure. Before the Incarnation, the Word was the thought, plan, reason, or mind of God. In the beginning, the Word was with God, not as a distinct Person but as God Himself — pertaining to God as much as a man and his word. ‘The Word was God Himself’ (John 1:1, Amplified Bible). In the fullness of time God put flesh on the Word; He revealed Himself in flesh. In the person of Jesus Christ, ‘the Word was made flesh’ (John 1:14). ‘God was manifest in the flesh’ (I Timothy 3:16). The eternal Word was revealed in the begotten Son.

    “The title of Holy Spirit refers to God in spiritual essence and activity. It describes the fundamental character of God’s nature, for holiness forms the basis of His moral attributes while spirituality forms the basis of His nonmoral attributes. The Title is particularly used of works that God can do because He is a Spirit, such as anointing, regenerating, indwelling, and sanctifying humanity. (See Genesis 1:1-2; Acts 1:5-8).

    “The three roles of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are necessary to God’s plan of redemption for fallen humanity. In order to save us, God provided a sinless Man who could die in our place – the Son. In begetting the Son and in relating to humanity, God is the Father. And in working in our lives to empower and transform us, God is the Holy Spirit.

    “In sum, the titles of Father, Son and Holy Spirit describe God’s multiple roles and works, but they do not reflect an essential threeness in God’s nature. FATHER refers to God in family relationship to humanity; SON refers to God in flesh; and SPIRIT refers to God in activity. For example, one man can have three significant relationships or functions -such as administrator, teacher, and counsellor – and yet be one person in every sense. God is not defined by or limited to an essential threeness.

    “A corollary of the Oneness doctrine is that the name of Jesus, which means Jehovah-Saviour, is the supreme name by which God has revealed Himself to humanity and the redemptive name in the New Testament. (See Matthew 1:21; Luke 24:47; Acts 4:12; 10:43; Philippians 2:9-11; Colossians 3:17.) Consequently, the apostles always baptized by invoking the name of Jesus, and the church should do the same today. (See Acts 2:38; 8:16; 10:48; 19:3-5; 22:16; Romans 6:3-4; I Corinthians 1:13; 6:11). Since Jesus is all the fullness of God incarnate, the name (singular) of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit as described by Matthew 28:19 is Jesus. (See Matthew 1:21; Luke 24:47; John 5:43; 14:26).’


    Source: http://mikeblume.com/onedef.htm

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    John said

    >> When you see the Father, you also see the Son and the Holy Spirit. When you see the Son, you also see the Father and the Holy Spirit, When You see the Holy Spirit He always reveals the Father and the Son.

    Oh boy

    Did you read my article John? According to you they are schizophrenic. 3 personalities in One.

    >> According to the Bible, I AM saved.

    No one is saying you are not saved, we are saying you believe in an heretical doctrine that needs to be remedied. Change your way of thinking (now that you have been told the truth of the matter) otherwise Satan is going to jump in boots and all and corrupt your mind further on other issues.

    >> NOWHERE does the Bible teach that you need to be fully correct in your understanding of the Godhead to be saved.

    REALLY John? Coming from you Mr Watchman I am shocked. You of all people should know that you need to be accurate and follow the gospel accurately! Yes we make mistakes BUT WHEN WE ARE INFORMED OF OUR MISTAKES – WE RECTIFY THEM – we repent of our mistakes, change our ways.

    Can I inform you of a BIG mistake I made? The image to this article is now gone because the Holy Spirit chastised me big time for a whole day (and I was not online to remove it, I was away) I didn’t think to ask Ton to take it off. The message from the Holy Spirit to me, Thou shalt not make any images of God. What did I do? I tried to make an image explaining away the trinity! But the Holy Spirit told me that it looked like a triangle and I must removed it immediately. So when I got back online I removed it and asked Jesus for forgiveness for being soooo stupid.

    We all do and believe in wrong things John, the good part is we can FIX the problem by changing our ways and asking Jesus for forgiveness. And HE forgives us immediately, however I still feel like a complete moron for making the image. What was I thinking? Clearly not at all.

    >> Jesus said “suffer the little children to come unto me, for such belongs the kingdom of God”. How on Earth do you expect children to understand the Godhead? All that is required is simple childlike faith in what Jesus said!!!

    You are not a child anymore, you are an adult and you have been informed of the truth.

  • John Chingford

    Hi Debs

    I cannot build up my own personal belief just from human intellectual argument and am not 100% decided either way. Nothing I have said is from my own point of view or an interpretation. All I am doing is quoting what the Bible says. Please read again what I quoted from John 14:9-11:

    “he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Show us the Father? Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, HE DOETH the works. Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me:”

    Then John 14:20 “At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you”

    John 4:23-24 says “the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth; for the Father is seeking such to worship Him. God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth.”

    God, the father is omni-present (everywhere), isn’t He. Wherever you go, God is THERE.

    Acts 17:28 says: “For in him we live, and move, and have our being”. So of course Jesus was in the Father. The Trinity cannot be separated because in unison they fill the whole universe with their presence.

    As we are both blog writers, you can probably appreciate that we have learnt how to properly investigate the truth rather than just accept the status quo.

    Since having a blog I have been forced to question many “accepted” doctrines because I have discovered they are contrary to the Word of God and most originate from Babylon (subsequently Rome).

    Did you know that the doctrine of the trinity (3 persons) came from Rome? Specifically it came out of Babylon with their triune (triad) of 3 gods – Osiris, Isis and Horus. As we know, the Catholic church has consistently been reintroducing Babylonic religion into their religion by “christianising” it. The doctrine of the trinity is another one they “christianised”. If this doctrine originates with them then I HAVE to question it. To my ears, calling the Trinity 3 persons sounds like they “christianised” their 3 gods worship. Whatever way you look at it, calling God 3 persons sounds like 3 gods.

    If the Father is omni-present, it means that wherever Jesus was, He was in the Father, when He ascended He went to the Father, when His body died on the cross The Son left the body on the cross “into your hands I commit my Spirit”.

    If it is possible for the Godhead to be separated, then they can no longer be ONE but two. Example, what happened on the cross? Was the Son of God temporarily cut off from His Father? How can that be? What about the 3 days and 3 nights? Was the Son dead? Where was He? The fact is that the Son can NEVER die (the body died) otherwise He would cease to be the ETERNAL Son of God. Even though He cried out “why hast thou forsaken me” He was not entirely separated. It was simply the body suffering the immense torture of paying for our sins.

    Whether you believe in 3 persons of the Trinity or a triune unity, whatever way you look at it there are problems when trying to explain what happened to the Godhead on the cross and in the tomb. I am still trying to get my head round it all. Maybe there is something in the middle of the 2 views added together that is the actual truth.

    Anyone with a humble/honest attitude should in humility accept that we will not ever understand fully the Godhead this side of Heaven “Now I know in part, but then I shall know just as I also am known” 1 Cor 13:12

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    John

    Clearly you have not even bothered to read my article! Oh well, believe what you want.

    >> Did you know that the doctrine of the trinity (3 persons) came from Rome? Specifically it came out of Babylon with their triune (triad) of 3 gods – Osiris, Isis and Horus. As we know, the Catholic church has consistently been reintroducing Babylonic religion into their religion by “christianising” it. The doctrine of the trinity is another one they “christianised”.

    Don’t be ridiculous, in fact your belief mimics the Babylonian belief of 3 gods all morphing out of eachother, and another thing is this – the RCC does not believe in subordination in the Godhead and neither do you – how can you if they are all merged together. If you READ THE ARTICLE you would have seen this.

    >> Anyone with a humble/honest attitude should in humility accept that we will not ever understand fully the Godhead this side of Heaven “Now I know in part, but then I shall know just as I also am known” 1 Cor 13:12

    No John, I do not accept false teaching. You are showing yourself to be someone other than who you claim to be – a watchman? Watchman of what, false teaching? If you can throw that verse around then so can everyone else when it comes to not understanding scripture!

    Read the article otherwise I ask you to please not comment again on this matter. This is a very serious matter and I am sorry John, but a million GENUINE Christians will agree with me on this. Figure it out please – WITH THE HOLY SPIRIT (who is not Jesus Christ) but a separate person all together.

    :)

  • John Chingford

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  • John Chingford

    Debs
    I have now read your article but cannot agree where you emphatically state that it is an EASY thing to explain the Trinity, nor that Jesus is a subordinate of the Father. I thought we believed in the co equality of the Trinity? Surely there is no subordination in the Trinity otherwise you have one major entity served by 2 inferior ones. That does not sound like ONE triune equal God, but 3 gods.

    You have got me entirely wrong!

    I have already stated that I do not believe in the morphing of God and have said that I do not take any specific viewpoint. I simply do not know!

    I see the value of the trinitarian position and the oneness position because there are scriptures supporting both. I AM NOT decided on the issue but have an open heart to receive from God. All I know is that there are contradictory teachings (IN THE BIBLE) to both points of view. There must be some middle ground that declares the actual truth.

    My main concern is that you are implying that a correct understanding of the Trinity is a requisite for salvation.

    The Bible tells us that it is through Jesus (that He is the Son of God who died in our place for our sins) that we are saved. It DOES NOT say it is through a 100% correct understanding of the Godhead that we are saved. Again I reiterate from context John 17:3 is NOT discussing HOW to be saved.

    “And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent”.

    Eternal life is NOT the same as forgiveness and salvation from sin. Eternal life is what you receive from the moment you have been saved. Eternal life is everlasting life ie continuous. It starts at salvation and goes on to eternity. Eternal life is all about our relationship with God through Jesus which begins once we put our faith in Jesus in childlike faith. The quality of eternal life is that we may “know you, the only true God”.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    John

    >> All I know is that there are contradictory teachings (IN THE BIBLE) to both points of view. There must be some middle ground that declares the actual truth.

    There are no contradicting teachings in the bible. There is no middle view point. It’s one or the other.

    >> nor that Jesus is a subordinate of the Father. I thought we believed in the co equality of the Trinity? Surely there is no subordination in the Trinity otherwise you have one major entity served by 2 inferior ones. That does not sound like ONE triune equal God, but 3 gods.

    You didn’t read the article properly now did you?

    >> state that it is an EASY thing to explain the Trinity,

    It’s easy because the BASIC logic is this: God the Father, Jesus Christ the Son and the Holy Spirit are 3 separate persons but all are ONE GOD. Simple John. Even a Child can understand that.

    >> My main concern is that you are implying that a correct understanding of the Trinity is a requisite for salvation.

    I have NOT said that, NO ONE has said that. STOP TWISTING MY WORDS. (You are beginning to pull a Jacob Prasch here – STOP SAYING THINGS WE NEVER SAID).

    Your comments are mean and nasty John, especially the one I deleted regarding the image I made. I told you that story to show you that we make mistakes and we ask Jesus for forgiveness and what do you do? You throw it in my face and use it against me? How dare you. That shocked me.

    Now I don’t care what you agree with or disagree regarding the doctrine of the Trinity, that is the way it is. You are clearly confused on the matter from the start and you need to take this whole issue to Jesus Christ in prayer.

  • John Chingford

    Debs

    The comment you deleted was trying to explain why I had not read your article. It was not to accuse you but to simply explain why I felt uncomfortable reading the whole article. My comment actually included a positive remark as a sort of “well done” for realising that the image was a problem.

    I did not mean to imply that the Bible is contradictory – OF COURSE IT ISN’T. I was pointing out that it appears (to me) that the 2 points of view both have some discrepancies when measured up to the plumbline of Scripture.

    You state that I am twisting words. What about these words (copied and pasted from above) by Thomas:

    ” Many people claim to be saved and still do not know God as He has revealed Himself in Scripture – a Triune God comprising three distinct, separate and co-equal Persons called God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit. Jesus said that it is the Truth that sets sinners free. Whoever rejects the Truth concerning the Triune God’s revelation of Himself (Father, Son and Holy Spirit) cannot claim to be saved.

    That is what I mean by “implying” that we need more to be saved than simply putting our faith in Jesus.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    John

    >> It was not to accuse you but to simply explain why I felt uncomfortable reading the whole article. My comment actually included a positive remark as a sort of “well done” for realising that the image was a problem.

    Yes John, blame it on the image now. I removed the image at 8am this morning, you read the article just before 4pm today. The wholleee day you’ve been commenting, but it’s never stopped you to read other articles with images that looked dodgy.

    Those comments were not to accuse me? Well it did not come across like that at all. A ‘sort of’? Hmmm… I didn’t ask for you approval anyhow.

    >> You state that I am twisting words. What about these words (copied and pasted from above) by Thomas:
    >> ” Many people claim to be saved and still do not know God as He has revealed Himself in Scripture – a Triune God comprising three distinct, separate and co-equal Persons called God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit. Jesus said that it is the Truth that sets sinners free. Whoever rejects the Truth concerning the Triune God’s revelation of Himself (Father, Son and Holy Spirit) cannot claim to be saved.
    >>That is what I mean by “implying” that we need more to be saved than simply putting our faith in Jesus.

    Well let’s put it this way, if you continue to believe in such heresy as it goes with all heresy then there is most definitely a problem because why is the Holy Spirit not informing you of such simple truth? If you change your thinking to be ONE with genuine Christian beliefs then I would say you are ok :) That is unfortunately the crux of the matter.

  • John Chingford

    Debs
    You still think I believe in the oneness doctrine.

    I keep stating that oneness IS NOT my belief.

    All I am doing is asking questions regarding the Scripture passages which do tend to support the oneness viewpoint, to see if anybody can give a clear explanation of what those verses mean, in the light of the 3 persons doctrine. As I always say “if it is in the Bible, it CANNOT be ignored – it is there for a reason”.

    My main problem with the Trinitarian doctrine is when they describe the Trinity as 3 subordinate PERSONS because I do not read such wording in the Bible.

    Again I say, I do not hold to the oneness doctrine. All I am doing is to try to get to the bottom of how the Godhead was in operation on the cross and in the tomb because I am convinced that NO aspect of the Godhead can become separated or die, without ceasing to be ONE.

  • John Chingford

    For example, did the Son of God die on the cross or just the body that died? Jesus DID say “into your hands I commit my spirit” and then it says he died and gave up His spirit.

    We know that Jesus IS God incarnate (in the flesh) “The Word became flesh”. The Son of God existed before He took on the form of a human body. In His body He suffered in all things like us but He did not sin according to Hebrews 4:15. Jesus knew what it was like to live in a human body. His suffering on the cross paying the penalty for our sin shows that up in great detail.

    So, was it the body that suffered and died or the Son of God who died?

  • Sharon

    This is going to be just my opinion…and my opinion isn’t worth much. I have been reading over the comments concerning the true Doctrine of the Trinity. We worship the One True God who has many names (The Great I AM) but I will call Him as I know Him best, God the Father.
    The Doctrine of the Trinity is not hard to understand IF you read the Scriptures. I heard someone say once about the Bible this comment: If it makes sense seek no other sense. We know that there is not a real “Red Dragon” so that must represent something. Ok, that makes it simple for someone with a simple mind like me. But then most of the time the Bible means what it says and says what it means. That would make me a “Literalist” for the most part when I read scripture. 1Jn 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.
    1John 5:8 And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.
    1Jonn 5:9 If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater: for this is the witness of God which he hath testified of his Son.
    1John 5:10 He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son.
    1John 5:11 And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.
    1Jn 5:12 He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.
    1John 5:13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

    I personally believe that we make Salvation harder than it really is.

    Acts 16:30 And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?
    Acts 16:31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.
    Acts 16:32 And they spake unto him the word of the Lord, and to all that were in his house.
    Acts 16:34 And when he had brought them into his house, he set meat before them, and rejoiced, believing in God with all his house.

    Rather than making many ways to Salvation God simplified it for we mortals. One God, One Savior/Jesus God’s Son, One Holy Spirit that indwells the Believer. These three are One.

    I’ve been on this Blog only a couple of weeks. But I have been here long enough to appreciate the “Deb-Ster” ( I call her that because she is like the “Terminator of Heresy!” :o)

    This is really my opinion, but I believe that we have a mixed-up theology sometimes because of so many different “versions” of Scripture. That is just the way satan wants it. The Bible has been under attack for hundreds if not thousands of years. The “wicked one” has launched a full scale attack during just my life time (58 years). There are over 250 differing “versions.” Most of the “modern translations” are based on the Latin Vulgate. Roman heresy! While I own different “versions” the KJV is the one I love, teach from, and believe there are NO contradictions in. God wrote one book. Satan knows it better than we do. But he knows he has a short time so he has attacked the Holy Scriptural Truth. I will not call me a “King James Only” believer because that name is misleading. I just say this, the confusion is not caused by God the Father, God the Son, nor God the Holy Spirit. It is because man wants their ear “tickled” so if they don’t like one version they search till they find a heretical version that will tell them how good they are. Sorry, that’s my opinion. God’s Holy Word means what it says and say what it means. Forgive my rambling, I am very passionate about God’s word. I don’t pretend to understand all of it. But I do believe that whosoever, that means me and you shall call upon the Name of the Lord Jesus you will be forever SAVED! Acts 16:31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house. For simple minded folks like me our Lord God made salvation easy for man.
    Acts 4:12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved…..Literally!

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    John

    >> I keep stating that oneness IS NOT my belief.

    You say this is not your belief, but yet you believe this: “>> When you see the Father, you also see the Son and the Holy Spirit. When you see the Son, you also see the Father and the Holy Spirit, When You see the Holy Spirit He always reveals the Father and the Son.”

    This is Oneness. You are wording it differently.

    > My main problem with the Trinitarian doctrine is when they describe the Trinity as 3 subordinate PERSONS because I do not read such wording in the Bible.

    There is DEFINITELY a subordination within the Trinity with regards to order but not essence or substance.
    We know that the Father is first,
    the Jesus Christ Son is second,
    and the Holy Spirit is third.

    God the Father is not begotten, but Jesus Christ Son most definitely IS (John 3:16).
    God the Holy Spirit proceeds from the God the Father (John 15:26).
    God the Father sent his only begotten Son (1 John 4:10).
    The Son and the Father sent the Holy Spirit (John 14:26; 15:26).
    The Father creates (Isaiah 44:24),
    The Son redeems (Gal. 3:13),
    The Holy Spirit sanctifies (Rom. 15:16).

    This subordination of order does in no way mean that any of the persons of the Godhead are NOT EQUAL OR DIVINE. Perish the thought!

  • John Chingford

    Debs, where did I say that I believed that oneness doctrine when I made that statement about “in the Father and in the Son”? I stated (above) that I am simply quoting the Bible. I then went on to list those scriptures. I did not say what I believe, simply that those verses seemed to support the oneness doctrine. I have said that I am not yet decided but open to be taught (by the Holy Spirit).

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Sharon

    Deb-ster; I thought it was from like Sylve -ster (the cat). But your version is funny :) I like :)

  • Sharon

    Yes, you are the Heresy Terminator….that equals “The Deb-Ster” keep at it friend.

    Deborah (Discerning the World) wrote:

    Sharon

    Deb-ster; I thought it was from like Sylve -ster (the cat). But your version is funny :) I like :)

  • Sharon

    Will Do

    Deborah (Discerning the World) wrote:

    Hey Sharon

    Ahhh because many people speak Afrikaans (Dutch) in South Africa so some articles are written in Afrikaans, but we are getting them translated into English :) So hang ten!

  • Sharon

    I will say it again…read the Scriptures. There is One True God with 3 distinct personalities. Good grief! Rome is a whore religion so what difference does it make what they think. Yes, their heresy came from Babylon, so. Scripture makes that clear as well. In The Revelation satan will have his “trinity, The Anti-Christ, The False Prophet and the Beast but all of them are powered by satan. Just because Rome and satan (almost one in the same) have their “trinities” does it make the fact that there is taught in scripture God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit.

    Some times we make truth harder than what it really is. Or perhaps I don’t get the argument. I simply believe what the Word (Jesus) says.

    Deborah (Discerning the World) wrote:

    John

    Clearly you have not even bothered to read my article! Oh well, believe what you want.

    >> Did you know that the doctrine of the trinity (3 persons) came from Rome? Specifically it came out of Babylon with their triune (triad) of 3 gods – Osiris, Isis and Horus. As we know, the Catholic church has consistently been reintroducing Babylonic religion into their religion by “christianising” it. The doctrine of the trinity is another one they “christianised”.

    Don’t be ridiculous, in fact your belief mimics the Babylonian belief of 3 gods all morphing out of eachother, and another thing is this – the RCC does not believe in subordination in the Godhead and neither do you – how can you if they are all merged together. If you READ THE ARTICLE you would have seen this.

    >> Anyone with a humble/honest attitude should in humility accept that we will not ever understand fully the Godhead this side of Heaven “Now I know in part, but then I shall know just as I also am known” 1 Cor 13:12

    No John, I do not accept false teaching. You are showing yourself to be someone other than who you claim to be – a watchman? Watchman of what, false teaching? If you can throw that verse around then so can everyone else when it comes to not understanding scripture!

    Read the article otherwise I ask you to please not comment again on this matter. This is a very serious matter and I am sorry John, but a million GENUINE Christians will agree with me on this. Figure it out please – WITH THE HOLY SPIRIT (who is not Jesus Christ) but a separate person all together.

    :)

  • Hank

    Fighting among one another again i see!

  • Sharon

    John, with all respect, you are swallowing a camel and getting strangled on a gnat. Jesus Christ the Son of God died on that cross. Jesus was 100% God & 100% man. This is called a HYPOSTETIC UNION. Jesus was not the Man/God, he was the God/Man who came to earth with one main mission, to lay down his life freely for all mankind and thereby atone four our sin. Jesus Christ the Son of God arose victorious over the grave. Because he lives we too shall live. The trinity is real because it is scriptural. It is obvious from my posts here that I am not a highly educated woman. I just love Jesus Christ because he did for me what I could never do. I had a sin-debt that I owed. He paid that sin-debt for me. That fact makes me believe every word in the Bible (KJV4me)because the Word was made flesh in the person of Jesus Christ, the Son of the Most High God. Every thing else is stuff. I think we will all have some surprises in heaven.

    Here is a topic that I cannot fully get my head into but it helps define the Trinity. How is it that God the Father knows when He will send Jesus to catch us away, but God the Son doesn’t know that day. Do I understand that, no. Do I believe it? Absolutely I do. Matthew 24:36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.
    John 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
    John 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

    He may catch us away…today. Hallelujah!

    John Chingford wrote:

    For example, did the Son of God die on the cross or just the body that died? Jesus DID say “into your hands I commit my spirit” and then it says he died and gave up His spirit.

    We know that Jesus IS God incarnate (in the flesh) “The Word became flesh”. The Son of God existed before He took on the form of a human body. In His body He suffered in all things like us but He did not sin according to Hebrews 4:15. Jesus knew what it was like to live in a human body. His suffering on the cross paying the penalty for our sin shows that up in great detail.

    So, was it the body that suffered and died or the Son of God who died?

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Hank

    >> Fighting among one another again i see!

    No Hank, it’s called making sure someone ‘understands the truth’ and ‘abides by it’ according to scripture. You probably attend a church that is so apostatized and in Satan’s clutches it is does not know whether it is Arthur from Marther all because no one has a backbone or even LOVES Jesus to STAND UP for JESUS CHRIST and HIS GOSPEL.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    John

    >> For example, did the Son of God die on the cross or just the body that died? Jesus DID say “into your hands I commit my spirit” and then it says he died and gave up His spirit.

    John, His body died but we know He committed His spirit to God, 1 Peter 3:18 states, “For Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened (made alive) by the Spirit.”

    Jesus died in body only (put to death of the flesh), not the spirit. And continued to exist in spirit, just as He did before He came to earth.

    Jesus’s body lay there in the tomb for 3 days. Jesus Christ himself did not die because He went down into Hell took the keys away from Satan AND for 3 days preach there. 1 Peter 3:18-19 18For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: 19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;

    This event occurred between Jesus’ death and resurrection where he preached to those saints in hell 1 Peter 3:19-20: “By whom also He went and preached to the spirits in prison, who formerly were disobedient, when once the divine longsuffering waited in the days of Noah…”

    It is His flesh that was made alive again, resurrected. Christ died in body only.

    When he resurrected however out of the tomb he resurrected with his WHOLE body that ressurected.

    Jesus is, 100% man and 100% God, not half man half God.

  • John Chingford wrote:

    I see the value of the trinitarian position and the oneness position because there are scriptures supporting both. I AM NOT decided on the issue but have an open heart to receive from God. All I know is that there are contradictory teachings (IN THE BIBLE) to both points of view. There must be some middle ground that declares the actual truth

    That’s precisely the problem when you do not accept what the Bible teaches. You begin to believe that their are contradictory teachings in the Bible and that there must be some middle ground that declares the actual truth. I can assure you, you will never find some middle ground. God is not a God of middle grounds. What you want to do is to split the ONE true TRUTH into two compromising truths that is no truth at all.

    I asked you to explain the following and you didn’t answer me.

    And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man (who IS and always will be the Holy Spirit), it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost (who IS and has always been the Son), it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come. (Matthew 12:32)

    In his high priestly prayer Jesus said the following:

    That they all may be ONE; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. (John 17:21)

    Jesus asks his Father that all believers may be ONE in the very same way that He and his Father are ONE (the Father in Him and He in the Father) that they ALL may be ONE in them (the Father and the Son). In fact the very same word “heis” is used here to describe the ONENESS of Jesus and his Father in John 10:30.

    Does that change all the believers into the Father and the Son who are ONE? Being in someone spiritually does not mean that you ARE that Person. The Body of Christ is singular and yet they comprise all believers who are all ONE in one another and also ONE in God (God the Father and God the Son).

    Simple logic tells you that there must be three separate and distinct Persons in the ONE true God. You yourself admitted that you are still trying to get your head around it all, especially around what happened to the Godhead on the cross. You will never get your head around it unless you believe that the Triune God is three separate and distinct Persons in ONE and the very same way that all believers are ONE in one another and also ONE in the Father and the Son. In fact, the ONENESS among believers is so intensely real that Jesus refers to a body with distinct members (individuals).

  • Hank wrote:

    Fighting among one another again i see!

    No Hank, not fighting but contending earnestly for the true faith that was one delivered to us by the apostles. What does Paul say?

    For there must be also heresies among you, that they which are approved may be made manifest among you.
    (1 Corinthians 11:19)

    As oddly as it may seem, heresies reveal the true Christians.

    {Edited by DTW: It would be good for you to read this: http://www.discerningtheworld.com/2013/06/09/love-covers-all-transgressions-2/

  • John Chingford

    I asked a question which no-one was able to answer. Where does it mention the trinity as “persons” in the Bible?

    I must admit I never saw it before, but found a verse this morning from Hebrews 1:

    “God, who at various times and in various ways spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets, has in these last days spoken to us by His Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the worlds; who being the brightness of His glory and the express image of His PERSON, and upholding all things by the word of His power” Hebrews 1:1-3

    That settles it for me!

    If the translators from the original manuscripts could not find a better translation than “person” then who am I to question it? The Godhead IS made up of 3 persons!

    My only question is how does that look in practice. Clearly there is just one God made up of 3 persons, but how do we describe that without it looking like 3 gods?

    I think I have a part of the answer, but still not finished. These 3 persons are so fully intertwined with each other that (although different) they are the same. They are so part of each other with oneness of thought and purpose but with different roles. All 3 show the same glorious attributes etc of each other. In a sense it is impossible to divide them as they are ONE (but 3) in every aspect. This is why the verses I quoted on previous days did seem to support oneness, but at closer investigation does not support it, in the light of what I am trying to say now.

    Hebrews 1 says that Jesus is the express image of the Father. Everything Jesus is is an exact image of the Father. In a sense Jesus is the Father (small Father?)because when we see Him we see the image of the Father. The Son of God is that part of God that has been revealed to us. No man has ever seen God (the Father) but we HAVE seen the Son.

    This is still a work in progress.

  • John Chingford

    Thomas

    Please refer to what I stated above on http://www.discerningtheworld.com/2013/06/06/understanding-the-trinity-god-the-father-jesus-christ-and-the-holy-spirit/#comment-245449

    I already corrected what I said because I was misunderstood. Please read all my comments because you keep distorting what I am saying.

    This is what I said above “I did not mean to imply that the Bible is contradictory – OF COURSE IT ISN’T. I was pointing out that it appears (to me) that the 2 points of view both have some discrepancies when measured up to the plumbline of Scripture.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    John

    “God, who at various times and in various ways spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets, has in these last days spoken to us by His Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the worlds; who being the brightness of His glory and the express image of His PERSON, and upholding all things by the word of His power” Hebrews 1:1-3

    FANTASTICS

  • Hi John.

    Wonderful! It proves that one needs to be a Berean to search the Scriptures for himself. Nothing I or Debs said convinced you but when the Word spoke to you, you listened, That’s great!

    How does the Trinity look in practice? I will leave that up to you and encourage you to search the Scriptures again for an answer. The answer you provided so far is very good but I can assure you that it won’t convince a Muslim unless he is saved first.

    But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. (1Co 2:14)

    One last question: Before the Bible convinced you that God is one in three Persons, what did you believe they are – three what?

  • I was simply questioning the use of the word “persons” because it seems so inadequate to liken God to a human term to describe Him. As I stated before, the word “person” is usually a name you give to human beings, not to God. That was my problem. But if the writer to the Hebrews uses the term “person” (or if the translation to the original manuscript uses it) and can find no better word, then I guess it must be okay.

    I have never doubted that God is made up of 3; Father, Son and Holy Spirit. The scriptures are clear on that. It is just a question on how you describe their oneness/unity and how the 3 persons can be one and operate separately without being separate entities. My last comment on this (this morning) is the best I can come up with, at the moment, in the light of all the scriptures quoted (by ALL of us) by trying to match them all together.

  • Paul (Continue in His Word)

    John,
    Speaking about Heb 1:1-3.

    This is what I did with my 4 year-old son (I will call him Andy) and his older sisters.

    I had them read these 2 passages:

    Heb 1:1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
    Heb 1:2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
    Heb 1:3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;
    Col 1:15 Who [Jesus] is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

    Then I ask Andy to stand before the mirror, and I asked him: Who do you see? He answered: Andy.
    I asked him: Is it another person than you? He said: NO. I asked: Is it the same person as you? He said: YES.

    I did the same thing with his older sisters. Same answers.
    Then I asked the oldest sister: What does the mirror reflects to you? Answer: My image.
    I asked her: Is it the image of another person than you? Answer NO.

    Then I took them back to the 2 passages we began with, and asked them: Is Jesus, who is the express image of the person of the invisible God, another person than God Himself?

    John, what do you think my 4 years old and his sister replied?
    What is you reply to that question?

    Luke 10:21 In that hour Jesus rejoiced in spirit, and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes: even so, Father; for so it seemed good in thy sight.

    P.S.
    Definition of “mirror”
    1. A surface capable of reflecting sufficient undiffused light to form an image of an object placed in front of it
    2. A polished or smooth surface (as of glass) that forms images by reflection

  • Paul (Continue in His Word)

    John,
    Speaking about Heb 1:1-3 (part 2)

    The author of Hebrews said that Jesus is the “express image of his [God's] person” (1:3). The English phrase translated “express image” is from the Greek word charakter. It is this word from which we get our English word “character.” This is the only occurrence of the word in the New Testament. It means “to impress upon, or stamp.” It denotes an engravement from a tool, which impresses an image into that which is being engraved. This impression, then, is a characteristic of the instrument used to do produce it. What is produced corresponds precisely with the instrument.

    The Greek word translated “person” is hypostasis. Although rendered as “person,” it is more properly understood as “essence of being, or the substance of a thing.” The etymology of this word has to do with “the sediment or foundation under a building.” It is that which underlies, makes up, or supports something. In this context, we are talking about what underlies, or makes up God, i.e. God’s subsistence.

    Jesus, therefore, is not just a representation of God, but is the very visible impression of God’s invisible substance and essence. He is God’s very nature expressed in humanity. To say it another way, He is the corresponding engravement of God’s essence of being, in human form.

    What is important to notice here is that Jesus is the image of God’s hypostasis. In context, the God who spoke to us by His Son is the Father of the Son (1:1-2, 5). The author is declaring Jesus to be the image of the God the Father’s subsistence. There is no mention of the Son having His own hypostasis, or there being more than one hypostasis. Nowhere in the Bible is God said to be three hypostases. Jesus, rather, is the image of the invisible subsistence of God.

  • Hi Paul,

    The difference between God and man is that man is not God and neither does HE look into mirrors to make sure who He really is (in case he had forgotten). In any case, a mirror does not reflect your true image; it reflects an inverted image of yourself. It’s not a good analogy. (Read here)

  • Andrew on trinity

    [Edited: Comment moved from At Boshoff from CRC Church shows us how Pharisees went about “Honoring” God]
    ——————–

    Andrew on the trinity:

    Dear Paul, you are like a new breeze of fresh air, glad to have you on board. It feels like I have being sidelined, but any way, I do have a few remarks on what Sharon said about 1John. 5:7 . I have some bad news for you, this verse use to be a heading of some kind, so
    somebody, let this heading slip in, to become part of scripture. This has being known by any bible scholar of the past forty years. This sinister act happened more than four hundred years ago. In my Interlinear Nestlé Greek/English Translation printed in 1957, there is no trace of it. I’m just surprised that nobody has told you about it. The only new bibles that are using the old wrong translation, are the Roman Catholic bible. Thus it lacks Authenticity!

    Now to my dear friend, John, please relax, I want to refer you to what Paul said about Heb.1:1-3 , Paul is correct, there is no mention of the word “person” in the original Greek.
    I would like to quote somebody:
    “Christians have traditionally seen Gen. 1:26, adumbrating ( for shadowing) the Trinity. It is now universally admitted that this was not what the plural meant to the original author” (Gordan J. Wenman, Word Biblical Commentary on Genesis, Word Books, 1987, page 27.
    (I knew this since my Bible School days, forty years ago.)

    While I do not subscribe to the NIV as being a correct translation of the scriptures, it does for many millions of trinitarians. More importantly, it was translated by trinitarians, for trinitarians. What does the NIV have in it’s commentary on Gen. 1:26:

    “us…our…our. God speaks as the Creator-king, Announcing his crowning work to the members of his heavenly court. (see 3:22; 11:7;
    Isa 6:8; see also 1King 22:19-23; Job 15:8; Jer.23:18;)”
    (NIV study Bible, Grand Rapids: Zondervan, 1985, page 27.)

    Another trinitarian Bible, the Ryrie Study Bible, contains a short note about Gen :26 “Us…Our…Plurals of Majesty.” (Charles Caldwell Ryrie, The Ryrie Study Bible(Dallas Theological Seminary),Chicago: Moody Press, 1978, page 9).
    Jerry Falwell, a well known Baptist Trinitarian has something to say about Gen. :26:

    “The plural pronoun “us”, is most likely a majestic plural from the stand point of Hebrew grammar and syntax” (Jerry Falwell (Executive Editor), Liberty Annotated Study Bible, Lynchburg: Liberty University, 1688, p. 8.

    Our next exhibit comes from a well respected Trinitarian source,the 10 –volume commentary by Keil and Delitzsch, they have a comment about Gen. 1:26:

    “The plural ‘We’ was regarded by the fathers and earlier theologians almost unanimously as indicative of the Trinity: modern commentators, on the contrary regard it either as pluralis majestatis…No other explanation is left, therefore, than to regard it as pluralis majestatis” (Keil and Delitzsch, Commentary on the old Testament, Peabody: Hendric.,1989, Vol.1 p.62.

    My dear Deborah and Thomas, I’m very sincere when beg you, let us “look before we leap” . You said the trinity is easy to understand, I beg to differ. The trinity is suppose to be one of the Babylonian’s top “Mysteries”. Please don’t jump to conclusions concerning such an important subject, I would that you both would earnestly read our comments, specifically that of David Bernard’s brilliant exegesis!

    Please read the following, an extract from the Foreword of my Greek/English translation, a real not to be missed!

    “If we believe with our adult minds that we live on a planet visited by God Himself in human form, the record of His life and teaching and that of the movement which He began are of supreme importance to the entire human race.
    Anything therefore which makes the significance and relevance of the Personal Visit clearer to the reader is to be welcomed with open arms.
    J.B.Phillips. M.A.

    Last but not least:”My dear Deborah, if you could just fathom how much the Father would love you to believe Him when He said: Col. 1:19, “For it pleased the Father that in him should all the fullness dwell; “ Oh my God, oh my God, reveal Yourself to your child!

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Andrew

    1) Can I please ask that you comment under the correct article.
    2) The truth has been spoken to you and you have rejected it. We are not going to now listen to your version which is heretical.
    3) The Trinity is NOT a Babylonian mystery. Satan copies everything that God does, and he will too have a trinity. Please stop blaming other religions for the fact that you now don’t want to follow orthodox Christian teaching.

  • James L

    [Edited by DTW: Sorry James, but I'm not going to have you come here and spew your false teaching all over this page and corrupt people. Please go elsewhere. Thanks.]

  • How would you explain the meaning of the following verse?

    And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come. (Mat 12:32)

    Is Matthew referring to two distinct and separate Persons or one being who manifests himself in two different modes or forms.

  • James L

    [delete - I know history, I don't care to know your version James]

  • Paul (Continue in His Word)

    John,

    In your comment dated 9 June, 2013 at 11:41 am
    you said “This is still a work in progress.”

    For you, and anyone for whom this is still a work in progress, you may be interested in watching some of the following youtube debates on the subject, between so-called scholars and not-so scholars. I believe we may gain some insight and maybe a little more light on the matter. I found them insightful.
    THIS IS BY NO MEANS AN ENDORSEMENT OF ANY OTHER DOCTRINE BY ANY OF THE DEBATERS. MY SOLE INTEREST IN THOSE DEBATES IS WHAT THE DEBATERS HAVE TO SAY ABOUT THE IDENTITY OF GOD: ABSOLUTELY ONE OR A TRINITY OF PERSONS.

    Is God a Unity of Three Persons or Only One Person? (Bennett and Richie)

    Oneness Vs. Trinity Debate- David Bernard and Gene Cook

    Trinity vs. Oneness Debate – White and Sabin
    Part 1 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f_OYdHfdbbo
    Part 2 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wL4iz6nPvQs

    Godhead, Oneness Vs Trinity Doctrine (Tancock and Sanguinetti)

    Oneness vs Trinity (David Bernard vs James White).
    1/4 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sNdB83Kh7NM
    2/4 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2jkiPtYCUFw
    3/4 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T29LSOAWHoc
    4/4 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hqu4a2W3_Cg

    1985 UPCI Oneness Pentecostal vs Trinitarian Debate.

  • Andrew on Thomas Doc. 2

    Andrew on Thomas
    Dear Thomas, before I answer your question, there is something to be said about complaints from John Chingford.
    He complains that you are either ignoring or dodging his questions,
    I must admit that I had the same experience with you. I’m talking about things that happened over a period of time.
    Saying this, I’m not alleging that you have done it on purpose.
    What I’m arguing, is that I appreciate the awesome workload that
    you are subjected to, and with the responsibility that goes with it, somewhere along the line you are bound to neglect something
    by chance, somewhere. So, John and I happened to be the victims of hopefully, a rare negligence occasion.

    Now back to your question, as far as I can remember, I’m going to present the question to you, by a parable, by the way I’ve never done it like this before! “Jesus needed help to carry the cross”. Question:
    The Jesus, helped here: (1)Was He God the Son; (2) the Son of God;
    (3)The Son of man. Answering this question could also be the answer to the first question.

    Dear Sharon, What is your response concerning the authenticity of 1Joh. 5:7, I’d like to see it, your welcome to ask anyone. Regards.

    Dear Deborah, I’ve always tried to reflect the love, light and the Spirit of Christ in my writings, whether I’ve succeeded, only time will tell.
    I want to tell you, I don’t think that you demonstrated the love of Christ during your unpleasant saga with John Chingford. It was unfair to expect from him to abandon his views on the Deity. Flesh and blood, can’t inherit the Kingdom of God and are normally associated with mankind like the “term” Person.

    You later cautioned him to stop opposing your views, or else you would delete all his future writings. So you went overboard to put him under undue pressure, and delete his next three writings to which he
    succumb. He said he found scripture with the word “Person” but it came out that, that does not appear in the Greek scriptures. But the harm was done. This incident has left a dent on your image.
    If apostle Paul were to be in John’s shoes, it would have being a whole different ballgame.

    Apart from that I’ve discerned a certain degree of anger, coming to the front from you and from Thomas. I do not like to say this, I am just being honest with you, The judgmental way your comments to dear souls and people, seeking the truth are not necessary. May be you are also overworked, which is normally the causes the stress factor to kick in. I know you have a lot of things to take care of, don’t allow this to influence your normal self, negatively.

    I know that I’m preaching the same doctrine in word and deed, as the one proclaimed by Apostle Peter and Paul. So I’ll gladly take the “Heretic” punch from you, knowing I’m in the good company of Apostle’s Paul and Peter, who also baptized by immersion in the Name of Jesus Christ, like myself. It gives me real assurance of salvation, for the mere fact that the command to the first Christian believers, were to be baptized in the Name of Jesus our Savior

    And Deborah, I’ve never judged Trinitarian Pentecostals, in fact I am a great fan of The Bill Gaither Vocal Group for the past fourty+ years. The whole cast of this group consists of Trinitarians and Oneness people, like The Happy Goodman’s, the Steer family since 1960
    the late Dottie Rambo, on and on, and I love them all, irrespective of their doctrine. Knowing them for so long, I know that they are serving
    the living God. What a wonderful group of singers?
    Take care.

  • Andrew wrote:

    “Apart from that I’ve discerned a certain degree of anger, coming to the front from you and from Thomas. I do not like to say this, I am just being honest with you, The judgmental way your comments to dear souls and people, seeking the truth are not necessary.”

    You are using the oldest trick in the book to try and win an argument. You only need to accuse others of being judgmental and angry and voila you’ve proved that your own comments have always been kind, friendly, uplifting, neighbourly and loving. Nice work.

    Andrew says:

    Now back to your question, as far as I can remember, I’m going to present the question to you, by a parable, by the way I’ve never done it like this before! “Jesus needed help to carry the cross”. Question:
    The Jesus, helped here: (1)Was He God the Son; (2) the Son of God;
    (3)The Son of man. Answering this question could also be the answer to the first question.

    This is what Paul says about God the Son, the Son of God and the Son of Man (the same Person):

    Have this mind among yourselves, which is yours in Christ Jesus, who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped, but emptied himself, by taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men. And being found in human form, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross.(Philippians 2:5-8)

    Paul says here that although Jesus is the very essence of God the Father (as God the Son and the Son of God), He was willing to embrace perfect humanity (as the Son of man). He is fully God but was prepared to set/lay aside his rights to deity during his incarnation in order to accomplish the will of his Father. Therefore, as God, fully equal to his Father, He needed no help to carry the cross but to accomplish his mission to the earth to save lost sinners He willingly and obediently set aside his deity and allowed someone to help Him carry his cross. You should know this, Andrew and if you don’t, you don’t know the meaning of Christ’s incarnation.

    I too asked a question which you haven’t answered. I won’t turn it into a parable to make it easier for you to understand, which you did so benevolently with your question.

    How would you explain the meaning of the following verse?

    And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come. (Matthew 12:32)

    Is Matthew referring to two distinct and separate Persons or a single Being who manifests himself in two different modes or forms?

    If Jesus’ words in John 7:38 is the litmus test for salvation then the Oneness gospel has a problem because they do not believe as the Scriptures hath said.

  • Sharon

    My response to you will be mostly from the Word. I’m not sure exactly why you are asking me this but the Apostle John is giving true, Scripture teaching on God the Father (our Abba) God the Word (Jesus) and God the Holy Spirit (Comforter/Indweller) Those three are One as in Deuteronomy 6:4 Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD:
    Does that mean Jesus didn’t exist back then? No, of course it doesn’t mean that. Who walked with Adam & Eve in the Garden of Eden? God is a spirit, so it was Jesus walking with them. Who was God talking to at Babel when He said, Let US go down? Whose backside did Moses see when God hid him in the Cleft of the Rock, that was Jesus Christ. God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit. These three are One. The One is Three. God has three clear and distinctive personalities. They have three jobs so to speak. The Holy Spirit could not come until Jesus went back to heaven. That tells me that only One part of the Trinity can be on earth at a time. Jesus spoke of the Father sometimes of Himself and also the Holy Spirit. That’s three from the mouth of one of them.

    1st John 5:4 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.
    1st John 5:5 Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?
    1st John 5:6 This is he that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth.
    1st John 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.
    1st John 5:8 And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.
    1st John 5:9 If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater: for this is the witness of God which he hath testified of his Son.
    1st John 5:10 He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son.
    1st John 5:11 And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.
    1st John 5:12 He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.
    1st John 5:13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

  • Sharon

    I want to answer Andrews comment to me and I pray I say the correct thing and in the right spirit. So, here we go.

    You have bad news for me concerning what I said about 1st John 5:7? This verse according to you and your 1957 Interlinear Nestle’ Greek/English Translation was a “heading of some kind so somebody let this heading slip in.” So what did this Translation say was the “kind of heading” and who was the “sinister somebody” that let his heading “slip in.” The “Bible Scholars” have known this for some 40 years now and you’re surprised that I didn’t know about it.

    Andrew, with all respect; I will take the Word of God in the 1611 King James Bible over your 1957 Translation of any version. The King James is not new, it is not modern, but it has stood the test of time. Will your 1957 Translation last over 400 years and still be as relevant as our Eternal God? I think not.

    I am not a Bible Scholar. I am a 58 year old mother of two, grandmother of 4 that has absolutely been crazy in love with my Savior Jesus Christ. My Savior gave me a passion for the Word of God starting when I was 14 years old. I know what I believe and why I believe it. I am a Literalist when it comes to the Word of God.If the verse makes sense then seek no other sense. The Apostle John wrote this verse: 1John 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.
    The he wrote it for a reason. The man had seen heaven while on the Isle of Patmos. He saw the on/three in this vision. Here is an article that I received permission to copy and share.

    I do not know how old you are Andrew…take God’s Word for what it says. You can “dictionary yourself to death.” We are to Study to show ourselves approved unto God. Study the Bible and don’t worry so much about what the “scholars” have to say.

    1 John 5:7 and the King James Bible Controversy

    Why Do The Modern Versions Hate This Verse So Much?

    “For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.” 1 John 5:7

    1 John 5:7 is probably one of the most controversial verses in the Bible. The reason it is so controversial is that all the modern translations, except the New King James, remove this verse. But, even the NKJV has a footnote with this verse saying the it is not found in the oldest Greek manuscripts. This could cause serious doubt in the reader’s mind that this verse is the word of God. This verse was never controversial until the modern translations.

    The problem is the modern translations come from a different Greek underlining manuscript than the King James Bible. The KJV uses the Greek Textus Receptus, while the modern scholars reject this manuscript. This results in the modern translations missing the equivalent of the Book of Ephesians and changing words like “only begotten Son” into “one and only Son”. One of the missing verses is 1 John 5:7.

    I believe the modern translations have tampered with the very word of God, which is beyond serious. I want to take a look at the internal evidence that 1 John 5:7 is indeed the very word of God and belongs in the Bible, just as it is found in the tried and true King James Bible.

    I was recently studying 1 John 5 and came across some interesting information that I never realized. I had never actually studied verse 7, but just looked at it as one of the proofs of the Holy Trinity. The first time, I actually studied it and asked myself what is the RECORD that the Father, Word and Holy Ghost are bearing record in heaven? To my amazement, I did not know. The following is a brief study to show what is this record and how important it is to our salvation in the Lord Jesus Christ.

    Scriptural proof for the inclusion of 1 John 5:7

    1John 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. (In heaven the Godhead bears record but with just this verse it is not clear what is the record. In context, it has to do something with the Lord Jesus Christ.)

    1John 5:8 And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one. (On earth, the Holy Spirit agrees in one with the water and the blood. Again, this has to do with the Lord Jesus’ ministry but exactly what is not mentioned.)

    1John 5:9 If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater: for this is the witness of God which he hath testified of his Son. (The witness of the Holy Spirit is greater than any witness of men. The witness has to do about the ministry of the Lord Jesus here on earth.)

    1John 5:10 He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son. (This is a very strong verse. It states that anyone who does not believe the record that God gave of His Son makes God a liar! I cannot imagine a verse stronger than this. This is so serious that the record is settled in heaven between the Godhead! But, we still do not know what is this record, but only that the Godhead bears witness to it in heaven.)

    1John 5:11 And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.
    (Now the record is revealed. The record that the Godhead agrees in heaven is that WE HAVE ETERNAL LIFE IN THE ONLY BEGOTTEN SON OF GOD! Our salvation in the Lord Jesus Christ is secure because the Godhead is in total agreement and the blood and water of the Lord Jesus on earth bear witness to the record in heaven.)

    Don’t mess around with Revelation 22

    If verse 7 is removed, then the record of agreement by the Godhead in heaven is also removed! Verse 7 is not a mere proof of the Trinity, it is really a proof that believers have total assurance of eternal life, when they are in the Son of God! God bears record in heaven that we have eternal life! The proof of the Blessed Trinity is actually a side issue which I had never realized.

    How dare these modern translations tamper with 1 John 5:7, as they tamper with the actual record in heaven that I have eternal life through my Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. It is probably the strongest verse in all the Bible for the assurance of eternal life in the Blessed Redeemer. I would never compromise the authority of this verse for any reason.

    While contemplating this verse suddenly Revelation 22:19 came to mind…

    Revelation 22:19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

    This verse states if ANYONE removes words from the Bible, God will remove that person’s name from the Book of Life. I believe that this warning is not limited to the Book of Revelation but the entire Bible.

    The first verse that those who reject the authority of KJV point to is 1John 5:7. They claim it was added and is not part of the word of God. This verse happens to be the strongest verse in the Bible showing that the complete Godhead bears record to our eternal life in heaven!

    How very sad that removal of 1 John 5:7 removes God bearing record in heaven for these people because it is NOT in their translations! How ironic, that by applying Revelation 22:18 to those that reject 1John 5:7, God does not bear record in heaven; therefore, their name is removed from the Book of Life. The very verse removed from these translations is the very verse which damns them, and it is exactly as Revelation 22:19 states would happen.
    I cannot emphasis how serious it is to tamper with the word of God. Please flee from these modern translations as they are promoting deception and are missing an enormous amount of verses along with altering the meaning of words.

    Just look at the subtle change in this one verse:
    KJV: Luke 4:18 The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised,
    NIV: Luke 4:18 The Spirit of the Lord is on me, because he has anointed me to proclaim good news to the poor. He has sent me to proclaim freedom for the prisoners and recovery of sight for the blind, to set the oppressed free,
    God’s Holy Spirit would never remove “he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted” from the word of God. This verse alone shows how corrupted the modern translations are.

    May the Holy God of Israel bless you as you rest in the fact that in heaven the Godhead is bearing record that you have eternal life.

    article written by J. McTernan

    Copied by Permission of: Geoffrey Grider
    Editor-in-Chief
    of http://www.nowtheendbegins.com

    Andrew said: “I do have a few remarks on what Sharon said about 1John. 5:7 . I have some bad news for you, this verse use to be a heading of some kind, so somebody, let this heading slip in, to become part of scripture. This has being known by any bible scholar of the past forty years. This sinister act happened more than four hundred years ago. In my Interlinear Nestlé Greek/English Translation printed in 1957, there is no trace of it. I’m just surprised that nobody has told you about it. The only new bibles that are using the old wrong translation, are the Roman Catholic bible. Thus it lacks Authenticity!”

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Andrew

    >> Dear Deborah, I’ve always tried to reflect the love, light and the Spirit of Christ in my writings, whether I’ve succeeded, only time will tell.
    I want to tell you, I don’t think that you demonstrated the love of Christ during your unpleasant saga

    LOL, That’s your opinion, because you disagree with us. You want us to agree with you and that dear Andrew is not going to happen. Thank you for insult me never the less.

    >> It was unfair to expect from him to abandon his views on the Deity. Flesh and blood, can’t inherit the Kingdom of God and are normally associated with mankind like the “term” Person.

    Unfair? According to the Word of God its EXTREMELY fair. And I expect the same of you and every other person who comes here. When they hear the truth, they have FREE WILL to decide what they want to follow. I am not going to force it down your throat Andrew. You decide what you want to follow, and if you decide to follow false teaching please do not try an persuade us otherwise.

    >> You later cautioned him to stop opposing your views, or else you would delete all his future writings.

    Yes Andrew, the same goes for you, if your sole purpose here is to try persuade us to think like you then I will delete you comments. This blog is about the truth and I will not have you come and spread lies on it. But if you are here to LEARN the truth, then your comments will not be deleted.

    >> He said he found scripture with the word “Person” but it came out that, that does not appear in the Greek scriptures. But the harm was done. This incident has left a dent on your image.

    On nonsense. People debate over things all the time and debates get heated all the time. You are here to accuse us and insult us now and you expect me to take it lying down? No Andrew! As Thomas said you are using the oldest trick in the book against us to try win your argument – create scapegoat by saying we are all mean and nasty to you. Oh please. The reverse is true: You have been mean and nasty to us.

    Now it’s gonna work like this. You are either here to learn or you leave, simple. Stop complaining about how ‘we are supposedly treating people’ it does not fly, because it’s lies

  • Andrew on Thomas Doc. 2

    Dear Thomas, I would like to answer Sharon on 1John. 5:7, My dear these Translators were trinitarians, why would they shoot themselves in the foot? They were just doing their job’s by being honest. It is very interesting, that none of the experts defending the trinity in debates, ever uses this scripture as evidence, so please do not try to blame it on the translators. Sharon, you asked about my age, well my dear I’m seventy four years and eight months young, on the dot.
    Now to Thomas, It is very unkind of you for even suggesting I was pulling a trick on you, while answering your question. I could really take this as an insult, for you not believing in my sincerity, but I’ll forgive you,(which you will also see as a Trick) Now back to what you said in your remarks on Phillipians 2:5-8, “Paul says here that although Jesus is the very essence of God the Father (as God the Father and the Son of God)”???? You are adding to scripture!! You assume!!!Where did you find the (words) God the Father, God the Son(for obvious reasons)
    Son of God.
    You have a big problem with us when we talk about the manifistations of God.

    Let me quote to you:1Tim, 3:16
    And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preaced unto the Gentiles, believed in the world, received up in glory.
    It does not say GOD the SON, I repeat it does not say GOD the Son was manifest, here’s that word again, MANIFEST. My friend concerning that question, let me just advise you, if I may, read that portion of scripture Matthew 12:32 from verse twenty till the last verse to see the context.
    I can answer that question, God knows. But after seeing the way you manhandled, Paul’s clear, good and solid answer to John’s question on “persons’Heb.:1-3, after he must have spent a lot of time to deliver such a PERFECT answer! So you without further ado steamrolled his PERFECT answer and replaced it with your version which were very unconvincing, to say the least. For that reason and that reason only, please do’nt expect me to waist any more time on this issue! And I really pray that God will lead you to eventual Spirital maturity.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Andrew

    You talk about us being nasty, boy oh boy are you just the pot calling the kettle black.

    Let us look at 1 Tim 3:16 and accompanying verses to get the whole truth.

    1 Tim 3:16 “And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.”

    These verses below LINK to the above verse.

    Mark 16:19 “So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God.”

    Tell me Andrew, how does Jesus Christ sit at the right hand of God if He is one and the same with His Father?

    John 1:14 “And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.”

    READ THIS VERSE ANDREW – what does it say, the Only begotten Son of the Father! This verse links with 1 Tim 3:16, so although Jesus Christ is not mentioned in that verse, this IS WHO WAS MANIFEST IN THE FLESH – The SON.

    Acts 1:2; “Until the day in which he was taken up, after that he through the Holy Ghost had given commandments unto the apostles whom he had chosen:”

    After Jesus left, the Holy Spirit came. Jesus sits at the right hand of the Father, while the Holy Spirit is down here on earth.

  • You’re right. You are wasting my time. So let’s call it a day. If you cannot see that Matthew 12:32 refers to two distinct and separate Persons, the One that warrants inevitable damnation in hell when you speak out against Him (the Holy Spirit) and One who does not warrant eternal damnation when you speak out against Him (the Son of God), then you will never understand. Then, we should seriously think of applying the following truth to your comments: ” . . . Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.” (2 Timothy 3:7)

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Thomas

    >> So let’s call it a day.

    I agree.

  • Sharon

    Why would I blame the Translators for anything? These men were the very best of the very best. They believed they were handling the very Word of God. All of them were fluent in Greek (the received text Greek), Hebrew, Aramaic, Latin and others. King James himself spoke at least six different languages. These men were Trinitarian because they knew that is what Holy Scripture teaches. So why would they believe anything else?

    John20:17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

    Then Jesus Called the Holy Spirit…the Holy Spirit.
    John14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
    John 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
    John15:26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:

    So Jesus speaks and prays to God the Father. Jesus says when the Comforter (the Holy Spirit) comes that HE will teach you of me.

    God the Father, God the Son, God the Holy Spirit, they all speak of each other.
    It doesn’t get any plainer than that.

    You will never change the hearts & minds of myself, Deb, John, all Trinitarians that Scripture is wrong.

    At your age Andrew you should know better. Andrew, Peter’s brother believed in the Trinity. After all, he knew one part of it in Person.

    Stick a fork in me cause I am done with discussing this with you.

    Andrew on Thomas Doc. 2 wrote:

    Dear Thomas, I would like to answer Sharon on 1John. 5:7, My dear these Translators were trinitarians, why would they shoot themselves in the foot? They were just doing their job’s by being honest. It is very interesting, that none of the experts defending the trinity in debates, ever uses this scripture as evidence, so please do not try to blame it on the translators. Sharon, you asked about my age, well my dear I’m seventy four years and eight months young, on the dot.
    Now to Thomas, It is very unkind of you for even suggesting I was pulling a trick on you, while answering your question. I could really take this as an insult, for you not believing in my sincerity, but I’ll forgive you,(which you will also see as a Trick) Now back to what you said in your remarks on Phillipians 2:5-8, “Paul says here that although Jesus is the very essence of God the Father (as God the Father and the Son of God)”???? You are adding to scripture!! You assume!!!Where did you find the (words) God the Father, God the Son(for obvious reasons)
    Son of God.
    You have a big problem with us when we talk about the manifistations of God.

    Let me quote to you:1Tim, 3:16
    And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preaced unto the Gentiles, believed in the world, received up in glory.
    It does not say GOD the SON, I repeat it does not say GOD the Son was manifest, here’s that word again, MANIFEST. My friend concerning that question, let me just advise you, if I may, read that portion of scripture Matthew 12:32 from verse twenty till the last verse to see the context.
    I can answer that question, God knows. But after seeing the way you manhandled, Paul’s clear, good and solid answer to John’s question on “persons’Heb.:1-3, after he must have spent a lot of time to deliver such a PERFECT answer! So you without further ado steamrolled his PERFECT answer and replaced it with your version which were very unconvincing, to say the least. For that reason and that reason only, please do’nt expect me to waist any more time on this issue! And I really pray that God will lead you to eventual Spirital maturity.

  • Paul (Continue in His Word)

    Dear All,

    I humbly and lovingly ask you to consider the following.

    I am almost finished reading this book:
    “God is One and Christ is All: Biblical Truth Against the Trinity” by Tom Raddatz.
    [removed]

    The Book Description on Amazon is the following:

    In “God is One & Christ is All” the original apostle’s view of Jesus Christ and his relationship to God is set forth and declared over and against the Trinity dogma. This book thoroughly exposes, in understandable language, the un-biblical nature of the Trinity. The development of the Trinity is called to account for adopting pagan, philosophical and even anti-Christian (Gnostic) views of God and Christ. The concepts underpinning the Trinity are openly listed and dealt with and compared with Biblical concepts. Ultimately, the evidence presented proves conclusively that the Trinity dogma is not a Biblical dogma. Rather, it is a man-made falsehood that is contrary to the Jesus that the apostles admonished all men to believe in for salvation. In particular the Bible clearly describes 1) God’s immaterial characteristics, 2) God’s descriptive names, 3) God’s passion for His people, and 4) God’s absolute foreknowledge. The anti-Christians rejected each one of these biblical concepts and replaced them with pagan and philosophical views. Those non-biblical views see God, instead, as 1) having a corporeal nature, 2) being unnamable (or ineffable), 3) incapable of any passion, and 4) that the divine realm is occupied with multiple, pre-existent, divine persons. In developing the Trinity dogma, men such as Justin Martyr, Tertullian, Origen, Athanasius and many others absolutely rejected the simple, biblically described, apostolic view of Christ. The ultimate goal for this book, of course, is to restore believers in Christ to the simple, pure, undiluted faith once delivered by Jesus Christ through his apostles.

    The Kindle edition on Amazon is only 0.96$ [removed] and there is a FREE sample available on amazon at [removed]

    If you start reading it, I please ask you do not judge too quickly before you are finished reading Section 4 (the most important part of the book)
    You may disagree with the author, but my plea is that at least you consider what he has to say then judge for yourself.

    Prov 18:13
    He that answereth a matter before he heareth it, it is folly and shame unto him.

    P.S. My life has been turned completely upside down by what I learned in this book. It is not just about the Trinity, it goes deeper than that. Again, not until I have finished Section 4.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Paul

    You kidding RIGHT?

    >> P.S. My life has been turned completely upside down by what I learned in this book. It is not just about the Trinity, it goes deeper than that. Again, not until I have finished Section 4.

    Why are you letting this book change your life, only the bible should do that.

    We here at DTW base out doctrine SOLELY on SCRIPTURE and not on reading what ‘church fathers’ said. This is the biggest trap people are falling into, you go back into history to find out what people thought about doctrines 1700 years ago, instead of just looking at the bible for your answer!

    >> The ultimate goal for this book, of course, is to restore believers in Christ to the simple, pure, undiluted faith once delivered by Jesus Christ through his apostles.

    REALLY? I thought that is what the Bible does all by itself pretty well. No what this book does is lead people away from the truth that is contained IN THE BIBLE.

  • Paul (Continue in His Word)

    Debs wrote:
    >>Why are you letting this book change your life, only the bible should do that.

    Let me correct what I said:
    “I came under the conviction of the Holy Spirit that the author of this book has rightly divided the Word of Truth in the subject matter he covers in the book”
    It is not the book nor its author who has turned my life upside down, but the testimony of the Holy Spirit.

    Maybe you are “answering the matter” too quikly “before hearing it”? Maybe try at least the free sample which gives you almost the first five chapters of the book, before answering?

    Debs, you and I certainly agree that God has gifted certain men and women to teach and expound Scripture by rightly dividing the Word. So we should not automatically reject any human teaching, and yes, our ultimate authority is the Bible.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Paul

    My answer is No, I don’t agree with you one bit.

  • Marlene

    Wanneer my man in die oggend wakker word dan is hy my “eggenoot”, wanneer die kinders hom sien dan is hy hulle “pappa”, wanneer hy by sy werk kom dan is hy “Dr. van der Merwe”, maar eintlik is hy maar net een persoon wat verskillende “hoede” dra! Maak dit nie meer sense nie?

  • Marlene wrote:

    Wanneer my man in die oggend wakker word dan is hy my “eggenoot”, wanneer die kinders hom sien dan is hy hulle “pappa”, wanneer hy by sy werk kom dan is hy “Dr. van der Merwe”, maar eintlik is hy maar net een persoon wat verskillende “hoede” dra! Maak dit nie meer sense nie?

    God die Drie Eenheid is nie ‘n enkeling wat verskillende hoedens dra nie. HY is GOD in drie Persone – God die Vader, God die Seun en God die Heilige Gees.

  • Redeemed

    Paul, do you know anything about the author of the book you are promoting?
    I have done research on the author and his cohorts. It sounds very much like the “Jesus Only” false teaching mingled with emergent.
    You are reckless in your endorsements and your statements.
    If you had done your research you would know that the book is connected to a group called the “Organic Church”. There is information about it but I am reluctant to post a link. All one has to do is search for Milt Rodriguez, the Organic Church. Rodriguez promotes Haller, the author you so trust along with Leonard Sweet and other emergent authors and blogs.

    Paul, I am rebuking you in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ for your lack of discernment and issuing a WARNING that the book you extol is dangerous and toxic. The teaching is very subtle in it’s error, but that is the most dangerous.

    Paul you are going to broken cisterns for your information, tainted wells and not only that strongly encouraging others to taste and drink. Shalme, shame, shame!

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Paul

    What amazes me is that you were so quick to trash Dave Hunt as an heretic something 48 years ago and look at you NOW, shame on you. I agree with Redeemed, you are on very dangerous ground.

  • Redeemed wrote:

    Paul you are going to broken cisterns for your information, tainted wells and not only that strongly encouraging others to taste and drink. Shalme, shame, shame!

    Isn’t it absolutely amazing to what extreme measures people will go to substantiate their heresies? It just shows you how dangerous deception can be. No wonder Jesus warned us: “Take heed that no man deceive you.” Deception is far more dangerous than wars, pestilence, famines, and earthquakes.

    I urge you to repent, Paul. It is NOT the will of God that you fall into error. It is not the Holy Spirit that convicted you that the author of this book has rightly divided the Word of Truth in the subject matter he covers in the book. It is another spirit who is promoting another Jesus and another gospel.

  • Redeemed

    Something very strange has happened here. I made a mistake. Don’t misunderstand, that is not the strange part because I readily admit that I often make mistakes.

    I searched based on the title of the book Paul promoted, not the author. I came up with a book with a similar title as the one Paul listed, but a different author. That author was promoting a oneness concept and it was coupled with emergent thought.

    I discovered my mistake when I went back and noticed that the book that Paul was promoting was by a different author, Tom Raddatz, not the author of the book I mentioned in my comments.

    The strange thing is that both authors, although much different in backgrounds apparently are both supportive of the oneness concept of God and Raddatz is adamantly against Trinitarianism.

    First, I humbly apologize for my error. But at the same time, it is almost as if it was supposed to happen. (I wish that was the case with all my mistakes.) Bit of humor there.

    This guy Raddatz and his co-authors are not easy to track to see what is driving their opposition to the Trinity. I finally did find Raddatz’s obscure website. I am going to give the link so that he can easily be discredited.
    http://www.1lord1faith.org/wm/watchman.htm

    He is a Oneness KJV Only Pentecostal! This guy is on a vendetta to trash the Trinity. He says it is evil! He twists and distorts Bible verses.

    Although I did make a mistake, my rebuke still stands because this author that Paul so admires is confused, deluded and dangerous.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Thanks Redeemed for fixing your mistake…

    it still shows us there is a BIG problem, people like William Branham did not believe in the Trinity and was part of this whole oneness movement.(if he was not the one to start it). He said that anyone that was baptised in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit had to be re-baptised in Jesus name only.

  • Paul (Continue in His Word)

    [delete- stop forcing your false teaching on us]

  • Rick

    [EDTIED - READ THE ARTICLE!]

  • Hester

    Bruce Milne writes and I agree. “To reflect upon God in his three-in-oneness, Father, Son, Spirit, in their distinguishable persons and functions yet perfect unity and harmony in mutual, everlasting love, is to catch a vision of something so unspeakable glorious, even beautiful and attractive, that it has ever and again down the centuries moved men and women to the heights of adoring worship, love and praise.

    Holy, holy, holy, merciful and mighty.
    God in three persons, blessed Trinity!”

  • Paul (Continue in His Word)

    Debs,
    I only wanted to stimulate a genuine debate over this critical theological issue which is the identity of the Father and of the Son and the relationship between them.

    I believe it is not such a simple and easy issue as you may want to make it appear.
    I do not believe the Trinity is in the Bible.

  • “The Trinity is not in the Bible and neither was there any LOVE before the creation of all things. ONE being played a little game of taking on different modes or forms so that He may express love FOR HIMSELF. First He took on the mode of the Father, and then abandoned that mode to take on the form of the Son, and then that of the Holy Spirit until He decided to remain fixed in the mode of the Son, Jesus Christ.”

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    >> “The Trinity is not in the Bible and neither was there any LOVE before the creation of all things. ONE being played a little game of taking on different modes or forms so that He may express love FOR HIMSELF. First He took on the mode of the Father, and then abandoned that mode to take on the form of the Son, and then that of the Holy Spirit until He decided to remain fixed in the mode of the Son, Jesus Christ.”

    Who said that? Surely not you Thomas? lol

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Paul

    >> stimulate a genuine debate over this critical theological issue

    Go debate on your blog. We are here to help people who want to learn the truth, you are not that person.

  • Redeemed

    Paul, how can you call promoting a book by a false teacher, Tom Raddatz stimulating a genuine debate? You spoke highly of this book and practically begged Deborah to read it and said it had turned your life upside down. You were right, it has deceived you. I exposed it because I did not want others to be deceived.

    Just because a certain term is not in the Bible does not mean that another term cannot describe the CONCEPT. Those who deny the Rapture also say that word is not in the Bible.

  • Carolyn

    I listened to the debate between David Bernard and Gene Cook in one of the videos posted above. David Bernard had some good thoughts but I think Gene Cook kept to Scripture without inserting man’s thinking…I have to go with what I read in the Word of God.
    1. God himself makes a DISTINCTION between the Father the Son and the Holy Spirit.
    2. When God created Adam, he said Genesis 1:26 And God said, Let US make man in OUR image, after OUR likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
    3. If the Father is on the throne, who is that seated next to him? Again, God has made a distinction between two persons.

    I think if we listen to men’s ideas, we can be swayed to think differently, but just reading the Word, it becomes plain enough that God is One in Nature and Character, but there are three distinct persons. Do we understand it perfectly? I know I don’t, but I believe it. Again, it is a matter of identity…the Father identifies himself in relationship as the Father both to the Son and to his regenerated children, Christ identifies himself as the Son of God and the Son of Man and the Holy Spirit identifies himself as the Spirit of Truth.

    The problem, it occurs to me, is the divisiveness of the Oneness doctrine. Once again, if we just read the word of God, would there be this divisiveness on this issue? I think not. It’s over thinking that complicates and confuses.

    God made the truth simple. The hard part is keeping it simple.

  • Edward

    Well said Carolyn! I watched the videos too.

    I would personally like to thank Paul for posting them. Those debates have done more to bear witness to the identity of the Biblical God, as He has revealed Himself to be in His Word, as held by the “trinitarian” understanding.

    The “Oneness” defenders are blind, “read into” and “ignore” Scripture, and we see the fruit of their “teaching” – that being a brother, Paul being led away from truth into error. It is a clear demonstration that we are all vulnerable spiritually, when we follow men, rather than “filling” ourselves up with the pure word of God, and seeking understanding through the Holy Spirit, whose job is to open the Scriptures to us. Then we be children, “tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive” (Ephesians 4:14)

    These “teachers” make it “sound” right – but it’s not – it’s seductive
    “Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils; Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;” (1 Timothy 4:1,2)

    We KNOW “All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.” (2 Timothy 3:16,17)

    Sad indeed, prayers. There is hope, doctrine, warning, and command here: “For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh (my comment: and this includes all twisted teachings of the “in the flesh” . All the cults admit that Jesus came in the flesh – the question is about “who” came in the flesh). This is a deceiver and an antichrist. Look to yourselves, that we lose not those things which we have wrought, but that we receive a full reward. Whosoever transgresseth and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath BOTH the Father AND the Son. IF there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed: For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds.” (2John 1:7-11)

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