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Lordship Salvation – Putting the Cart Before the Horse

Lordship Salvation - Putting the Cart Before the Horse

The problem is that Lordship Salvation confuses the ROOT of a believer’s faith, i.e., faith in Christ (Romans 4:5), with the FRUIT of that faith, i.e., good works (James 2:18). The ROOT should bring forth the FRUIT; but the FRUIT cannot come before the ROOT. DO you understand the difference? Lordship Salvationists are demanding the FRUIT as a prerequisite to salvation. They are putting the cart before the horse.

“But he denied, saying, I know not, neither understand I what thou sayest. And he went out into the porch; and the cock crew… But he began to curse and to swear, saying, I know not this man of whom ye speak.” —Mark 14:68,71

The above passage of Scripture is speaking about the Apostle Peter. Peter sinned by denying Jesus. Yet, Peter was a born-again believer. King David was a Christian; yet he conspired to have a man killed, to cover up an unwanted pregnancy, from an adulterous affair with that man’s wife. Abraham and Sara doubted God. Moses was a murderer. Samson went with a harlot. Jacob was a thief. Jonah ran from God. Noah got drunk. Isaiah was a man of unclean lips. These were God’s best and brightest.

Lot was a worldly believer. Yet, 2nd Peter 2:7 calls Lot a “just” man. The Lordship Salvation crowd would have considered all of these men unsaved. Yet, we see they were saved.

This subject needs to [be] preached about on a regular basis, because the damnable heresy of LORDSHIP SALVATION has infiltrated our churches, and is leading multitudes into Hell.

What is “Lordship Salvation?” Lordship Salvation is the unbiblical teaching that a person MUST cease from a sinful lifestyle to be saved. Lordship Salvationists pervert the true meaning of the word “REPENT” in the Word of God. Whereas Biblical repentance means that a person recognizes their guilt of sin (Romans 3:19); Lordship Salvationists corrupt the meaning of the word, teaching that a person must cease from living a sinful lifestyle to be saved. God does not ask us to give up anything to be saved. Eternal life is the gift of God (Romans 6:23). Salvation is receiving, not giving. God gave us His only begotten Son, Jesus, to pay our debt of sin. All we have to do to be saved is to acknowledge our guilt of sin, coming to God on that basis; believing on Jesus, the Christ, the Son of God, to forgive our sins (Acts 10:43).

In 2nd Peter 3:9 we read, “The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is long-suffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.” The Greek word for “repentance” here is “METANOIA” and literally means “a change of mind.” Not a change of lifestyle; BUT, a change of mind. The changed life should follow afterwards; but the Bible is filled with examples of saints who continued to live in rebellion and sin, such as Solomon and Samson.

Turning from Unbelief verses Turning from One’s Sins

“And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.” -Mark 1:15

Carefully notice in Mark 1:15 above that Jesus didn’t say “repent ye, and turn from your sins.” No, Jesus clearly stated, “repent ye, and BELIEVE THE GOSPEL.” It is plain to see that Biblical repentance is a change of one’s mind concerning sin and unbelief, which causes that soul to turn in faith to the Lord Jesus Christ for forgiveness and salvation. Jesus never once said to a person, “Give up all your sin and then I’ll save you.” No, rather, Jesus said “Go, and sin no moreafter making them whole (John 8:11). All God asks is that we come for salvation through His dear Son (John 3:16).

We must be extremely careful when we tell lost sinners that they need to be willing to turn from their sins to be saved.  I have read many Gospel tracts that give the impression that a person MUST forsake their sins to be saved—which is NOT true at all.  A person DOES need to REPENT of their SINS to be SAVED, but that change begins in the mind and may take some time to show in that person’s personal life (1st Peter 2:2). The ONLY repentance which God requires of a man to be saved is for that man to acknowledge his sinful condition and; thus, recognize his desperate need for a Savior.

I certainly think it would be reasonable for a repenting sinner to desire to turn from his or her sins;  BUT, as we learn from countless believers in the Bible, that’s not always the case. Judges 16:1 states, “Then went Samson to Gaza, and saw there an harlot, and went in unto her.”

I am NOT condoning sin. I am simply saying that Christians at best are people, and people at best are still sinners.

Lordship Salvation is rooted in self-righteousness, for all Christians are sinners. If living in sin can cause a born-again believer to lose salvation, then we all lost it a long time ago, for all have sinned (Romans 3:23; Romans 7:14-25). It is solely by Christ’s merciful righteousness that we are saved (2nd Corinthians 5:21). Lordship Salvation and the Pentecostal Charismatic heresy of losing one’s salvation are related monsters. Lordship Salvationists ADD works to faith to GET saved, and the Charismatics ADD works to faith to STAY saved. Regardless, these two damnable heresies are both rooted in works salvation!

The Change Comes AFTER a Person is Saved, NOT before.

The internet is plagued with heretics who are teaching that a person must forsake their sinful life to be saved. 2nd Corinthians 5:17 reads, “Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.”  Please notice that a man does NOT become a “new creature” until AFTER he is in Christ. The change comes after a person is saved, NOT before.

If a person claims to be a Christian but is still living a wicked lifestyle, still living in perpetual sin, then I would sincerely doubt that person’s salvation as well. However, I am not going to start teaching damnable heresy by saying that sinners must forsake all their sins in order to be saved. Salvation comes through childlike faith in the Lord Jesus Christ; nothing may be added.

Once a man becomes a new creature in Christ, THEN and ONLY THEN he begins to change. Lordship Salvationists are sanctimonious (i.e., hypocritical in their beliefs) in that they are sinners themselves. The entire notion that a lost sinner must give up sin to be saved presents a serious indictment against Lordship Salvationists … “For all have sinned…” (Romans 3:23). Let he who is without sin among you teach Lordship Salvation.

A changed life is the FRUIT of genuine repentance; and not a part of the ROOT of saving-faith.

My question to you is: Are there 2 Gospels?

  1. The Gospel of John MacArthur, Ray Comfort, Kirk Cameron, Paul Washer, Jack Chick, Aiden Tozer, and others, requires that a person forsake (or be willing to forsake) their entire lifestyle of sin, make amends, and change their ways, as a prerequisite (beforehand) to saving faith.
  2. The Biblical Gospel teaches that we are saved solely by Christ’s righteousness (Romans 10:3-4), and that no self-righteousness of any kind is required (Titus 3:5), because we have none to offer (Isaiah 64:6); neither does a person have to quit any sin to be saved (Romans 4:5-6).  Repent of their sins, yes.  After we are genuinely saved, are we a new person in Jesus Christ, the Holy Spirit abiding in us, chastises us when we sin, as we grow in Christ-likeness, and change our ways to sin no more.  But we will never be sinless because the bible says so.

A lot of Christians have brushed the issue aside as a matter of semantics, but the difference between the 2 Gospels is day and night. One includes a certain degree of self-righteousness, which is a false Gospel; but the other is solely based upon Christ’s righteousness, which is by the precious literal, physical, blood sacrifice of Jesus Christ.

“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.” —John 3:16

————-

Lordship Salvationists, in a futile attempt to support their false doctrine, paint an ugly picture of their opponents. They allege that we believe people can happily indulge in open sin with no remorse whatsoever. That is simply not the case at all. God doesn’t give anyone permission to sin (Romans 3:31).

Please remember that Biblical repentance IS A CHANGE OF MIND. A person who is genuinely saved now has a different attitude. If a man is a true Christian, he won’t have the haughty attitude that he can continue in open sin with no consequences. Each believer has the Spirit of Christ living within (Romans 8:9). This is the Holy Spirit. Hebrews 12:8 makes clear that God will CHASTISE His children. The Holy Spirit always convicts the believer of unrepentant sin. In sharp contrast, the heathen unsaved world knows not God, and sins with no remorse or concern for the things of God.

Lordship Salvationists are wrong when they they attack Bible-believing Christians with shallow accusations which simply CANNOT be substantiated with the Scriptures. A person who has been genuinely saved has repented concerning their sins, i.e., they acknowledged their GUILT of sin and believed on Christ for forgiveness.

The heresies that Lordship Salvationists teach are not found anywhere in the Scriptures. They mandate repentance FROM sins to be saved, but this is not Scriptural. Biblically, we are to repent OF our sins, i.e., our sinful condition. God says we are all sinners (Romans 3:10,19-23).

Repentance from sin is an entirely different matter. Just because a person believes upon Christ as Savior doesn’t automatically mean that their life is cleaned up. It takes time for a new believer to grow in the Lord (1st Peter 2:2). A new believer doesn’t instantly stop drinking, smoking, cursing, etc. It takes time to grow in grace.

Lordship Salvationists are hypocrites because they expect a sinner to change instantly in order to get saved. Lordship Salvation prohibits anyone from coming to Christ for salvation who isn’t willing to forsake all their sins. So then how can anyone be saved? No one can forsake ALL their sins, otherwise they’d be perfect, and only Jesus Christ is without sin (2nd Corinthians 5:21; Hebrews 4:15).

—————–

Explaining Repentance

I believe repentance is necessary for salvation. Mark 1:15, “…repent ye, and believe the gospel.”  The Greek word for ‘repent’ here is ‘metanoeo,’ which translated into English means ‘to change one’s mind.’ It does not mean to stop sinning, since that would mean self-righteous works for salvation. We are commanded to repent and believe the Gospel; not repent and turn from sin. We turn to Jesus to be forgiven of our sins; we don’t turn from our sins in order to trust Jesus.

If a person has to stop committing sin to be saved, then how can anyone be saved? There is much confusion over the phrase “turn from sin,” but if the Biblical teaching that eternal life is a free gift is not forgotten, then the truth becomes very clear. A gift cannot be earned. Salvation is not a reward, it is the free gift of God (Romans 5:15; 6:23).

When a sinner must ‘turn from sin’ to be saved, he simply means that a sinner must renounce all their sins. But renouncing one’s sins is quite different than ceasing from committing sin (when one is trying to get saved).  Biblical repentance is a change of mind. Paul Washer teaches that repentance is a change of life; but that is wrong. A changed life is the FRUIT of genuine repentance, and not a part of the ROOT of saving-faith.

Biblical repentance unto salvation means turning to Jesus Christ to be forgiven of one’s sins; not turning from one’s sins to trust in Christ. When a man turns to Christ by faith, he has turned his back against sin. This is why we find the word ‘believe’ mentioned 85-times in the Gospel of John, but the word ‘repent’ is never mentioned even once. Thus, the man who believes on Jesus has repented, and the man who repents has believed on Christ. The solution to sin is not education, legislation, rehabilitation, nor reformation; but regeneration. Repentance and faith are inseparable. They occur simultaneously. Lordship Salvationists attempt to divide repentance and faith, but you cannot.

Many false prophets, such as Ray Comfort and John MacArthur, misinterpret the meaning of repentance as ceasing from a sinful lifestyle. The Bible does not teach that. This heresy is commonly referred to as ‘Lordship Salvation,’ which I DO NOT believe at all.  Salvation is without works of self-righteousness. Romans 4:5, “But to him that worketh not, but believeth on Him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.”  We are saved by the IMPUTED righteousness of Jesus Christ.

We are saved solely by Jesus’ righteousness, and not by our own self-righteousness in any way. The desire to forsake one’s sins is not a prerequisite to faith in Christ. The sincere admission of one’s guilt of sin for breaking God’s commandments is sufficient. The only requirement is for a person to realize that they have sinned against God and; therefore, need a Savior. It is not what we can do for God that saves us; but rather, what Jesus Christ did for us through His work of redemption. Jesus paid a debt that He did not owe, because we owed a debt that we could not pay.

 

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77 comments to Lordship Salvation – Putting the Cart Before the Horse

  • Elbie

    Hi Deborah,
    I’m not a calvanist, but I’d love to discuss some of the things you say you presently believe (we know this changes sometimes as you are convinced differently) but would you be willing to do it sincerely without the cynical immature comments which is really not necessary if your aim is to help edify and enrich the biblical understanding of others? after all this is not a comedy website and we don’t visit it to laugh or poke fun at others who sincerely believe differently.

    You’ve made it clear what you believe concerning salvation, and I do feel a bit like I’m preaching to back-slidden christians, who are usually doubly less receptive to bible truth, but here goes:

    To the UNSAVED, God has OFFERED (not yet given) the FREE GIFT OF SALVATION to those who BELIEVE on his name. And for those who CHOOSE to believe and CHOOSE to accept this FREE gift from God, they need to REPENT (realize, be sorry for, feel ashamed, and hence make a decision to try and turn away from) their SIN. The God offering this gift HATES sin, sent his son to die on the cross BECAUSE of this sin, and to take up our cross daily means to be CRUCIFIED daily with Him, as we make decisions not to live a life which serves the lust of the our sinful nature and of this world. It might sound like an impossible task to you, but so does that reduce the requirement laid down by GOD as recipients of that FREE gift?
    You’re right we don’t have to pay for it, but we have to work at it in order to attain it. No payment can buy it, but NOT laying down your life of sin will stop you from RECEIVING that gift. do u in other words dispute the parable of Jesus about those who hear (and believe) but later they fall away, choked by the worries and cares of this world? …that gift was there for the moment then it fell away when they let it go. We need to run the race until the end, to ATTAIN the prize (reward) for serving our Lord and savior Jesus Christ. Do you dispute that too with the many thousands of other bible scriptures, as you try to advocate the meaning of the word GIFT?

    Yours humbly,
    Elbie

    Burning Lamp wrote:

    Thank you Debs for posting this!
    Calvinism/Reformed theology is the Trojan Horse of the faith and one of the greatest enemies of the Gospel!
    John MacArthur is widely accepted by evangelicals who are often unwittinly sucked into Calvinism via MacArthur. I know personally several who came to believe in Calvinism via this gateway.
    Another is Ray Comfort’s The Way of the Master which is widely promoted has been a gateway to a false gospel to the undiscerning.
    Check out this link: http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/Wolves/ray_comfort-heresy.htm His way of reaching the lost is confrontational, not loving and reflects the false doctrine of “Lordship Salvation”.
    Quote from the article exposing this:
    HOWEVER, the big problem with Ray Comfort and Kirk Cameron is that they teach the damnable heresy of LORDSHIP SALVATION. Like all Lordship Salvationists, Ray Comfort errantly teaches that salvation by faith ALONE in Jesus Christ is not enough to save someone. That is a false Gospel. According to Ray Comfort, a person MUST also cease from their sinful lifestyle and give up worldly living to be saved. Thus, eternal life ceases to be a gift in Ray Comfort’s mind, and has now been turned into a reward. It is much more than a matter of mere semantics. The Bible teaches one Gospel, not two. http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/Wolves/ray_comfort.htm
    You can fully expect that Calvinists will defend these men and their damnable doctrine because they are blinded by the enemy and their devotion to men and this results in twisting of the Scripture.
    This is much more than a minor difference in “philosophies” but rather souls hanging in the balance.
    Those of the Calvinist/Reformed faith love to get involved in debates, using their pet verses. The pride is so evident!

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Elbie

    You talk about immature comments, I think you should point the fingers back at yourself. (where you say, “and to take up our cross daily means to be CRUCIFIED daily with Him, as we make decisions not to live a life which serves the lust of the our sinful nature and of this world. It might sound like an impossible task to you and…. “and I do feel a bit like I’m preaching to back-slidden christians, who are usually doubly less receptive to bible truth”) – shocking, what’s your problem? And right now I am not sure what you are trying to say…

    >> To the UNSAVED, God has OFFERED (not yet given) the FREE GIFT OF SALVATION to those who BELIEVE on his name. And for those who CHOOSE to believe and CHOOSE to accept this FREE gift from God, they need to REPENT (realize, be sorry for, feel ashamed, and hence make a decision to try and turn away from) their SIN. The God offering this gift HATES sin, sent his son to die on the cross BECAUSE of this sin, and to take up our cross daily means to be CRUCIFIED daily with Him, as we make decisions not to live a life which serves the lust of the our sinful nature and of this world. It might sound like an impossible task to you, but so does that reduce the requirement laid down by GOD as recipients of that FREE gift?
    You’re right we don’t have to pay for it, but we have to work at it in order to attain it. No payment can buy it, but NOT laying down your life of sin will stop you from RECEIVING that gift. do u in other words dispute the parable of Jesus about those who hear (and believe) but later they fall away, choked by the worries and cares of this world? …that gift was there for the moment then it fell away when they let it go. We need to run the race until the end, to ATTAIN the prize (reward) for serving our Lord and savior Jesus Christ. Do you dispute that too with the many thousands of other bible scriptures, as you try to advocate the meaning of the word GIFT?

    Are you trying to imply that I don’t believe in repentance of sin and living a holy life through the conviction of the Holy Spirit? If so I have no idea where you get this because this is NOT the case. A GENUINE Christian has the indwelling of the Holy Spirit and WILL live a life that is pleasing to God to the best of his/her abilities. We can’t take up our cross and follow Jesus of our own flesh, only obedience to God’s commandments through the guidance of the Holy Spirit in your life will allow a genuine Christian to do this. Those who hear and believe but later fall away are nominal believers – those who have a form of godliness but deny God’s power (there are hundreds of millions of these kinds of people). We do not know the hearts of people, only God does.

    >> You’re right we don’t have to pay for it, but we have to work at it in order to attain it. No payment can buy it, but NOT laying down your life of sin will stop you from RECEIVING that gift

    You are putting the horse before the cart.

    Ray Comfort says: “Merely being sorry for your sins, or confessing them to God won’t help you. You must turn from sin (repent).” and “These are perhaps the most frightening verses in the Bible. Vast multitudes of professing Christians fit into the category spoken of here. They call Jesus ‘Lord,’ but they practice lawlessness. They profess faith in Jesus, but have no regard for the divine law. They tell ‘fibs’ or ‘white’ lies, take things that belong to others, have a roaming eye for the opposite sex, etc. They are liars, thieves, and adulterers at heart, who will be cast from the gates of heaven into the jaws of hell.”

    This is Heresy! This is a backwards gospel, where a sinner must reform as a prerequisite to qualify for salvation. In this false gospel, the burden of changing is placed upon the sinner instead of upon the Lord. It is indeed salvation by self-righteous works. The gospel is a big deal and worth fighting over. Ray Comfort leads sinners to believe that God will not save them unless they are willing to stop sinning; but the Bible disagrees with Mr. Comfort. What a burden that must place on the believer!

    In Biblical salvation, you come to Christ by faith to be forgiven of your sins, and then God works on your heart to change as you grow in the milk of the Word (1st Peter 2:2). God chastises His children who continue in sin (Hebrews 12:6-8), but all believers sin (Romans 7:14-25). When we as Christians sin we are talking about small things, not living in perpetual sin.

    I had no idea Ray Comfort was so PERFECT that he did not sin, talk about self-righteous

    Ray Comfort and Kirk Cameron are Calvinists who follow John MacArthur and they are WRONG to teach that repentance unto salvation means ceasing from sin. They are also wrong to teach that repentance is a completely separate act from believing upon the Lord to be saved.

    Are you sinless? You must be, because according to you, unless you don’t lay down your life of sin you won’t get saved. Which now leads us to ONE BIG PROBLEM. There is only 1 SINLESS person I know, and that is Jesus Christ, not Jesus and Elbie.

  • Burning Lamp

    LB, I am confused. Are you saying my comments are immature and are you saying I am treating those who disagree with derision and thinking it is funny?

    LB, a heretical doctrine needs to be taken seriously and that is what I thought I did.

    And I will address what you said about living the Christian life. When one TRULY accepts Christ, one is SEALED by the Holy Spirit. That seal cannot be broken and we are kept in the Body, NOT by our own efforts, but by the promise of God.
    We still have the sinful nature, so we will sin. But our ATTITUDE toward it should reflect our rebirth. If we disobey the Lord we will not lose our salvation, but we are still accountable. If we do not confess our sins, the Lord will CHASTEN us just as we discipline our disobedient children. But we ARE His children. Sin has consequences, but for the truly born-again believer it is not to lose their salvation.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    BL

    I updated my comment (please re-read) and fixed the spelling error in yours.

  • Elbie

    Deborah

    Thanks for your reply. Your very last comment is the very type of thing that I’m referring to. Seems as if its intended to offend and cause a reaction. I however wont be sucked into mud slinging games. I enjoy some of the articles on this website though, but I can assure you that many would prefer it without the “facetious” style comments.

    Ok back to the point. We serve an awesome and Holy God and we are guilty no matter what gift is waiting in store for us. First we need to be forgiven, and THEN we receive. But we are forgiven when we acknowledge and repent of our sins. So you say this is a backward gospel?

    Mar 1:15 And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel
    Act 26:18 To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and (then) inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.
    Act 26:20 But shewed first unto them of Damascus, and at Jerusalem, and throughout all the coasts of Judea, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, and do works meet for repentance.

    Like I said Im not Calvinist (nor do I wish to be branded as follower of any doctrine other than what comes straight out of Gods word) so im not siding with any Calvinistic views….all im saying is that you are unnecessarily confusing many people by reversing scriptural salvation to push the point of the “free gift” thus leading people to believe that they can be born again when they have not or refuse to repent of their sins. Scripture is clear enough. Don’t take lightly Gods caution of adding to the scripture what is not there. NOWHERE does it openly declare that you do not have to repent to be born again. On the contrary, over and over it pleads with us to repent and be forgiven and to accept the free gift of salvation through Jesus Christ our Lord. Amen

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Elbie

    Like I said, point those fingers back at yourself! I’m not speaking to you anymore, run along and go play nasty somewhere else.

    I have already CLEARLY stated how BIBLICAL salvation and repentance of sin works. If you want to work hard for your salvation by your own works, then go for it. I on the other hand have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit ALREADY (sealed) , He convicts me when I sin and I repent and do my best to not sin again. Only the Holy Spirit can tell you when you are sinning and only He can help you overcome sin. If you are trying to stop sinning by yourself then you are fooling yourself.

  • Jemfishy

    Elbie

    Elbie wrote:
    I’m not a calvanist, but I’d love to discuss some of the things you say you presently believe (we know this changes sometimes as you are convinced differently) but would you be willing to do it sincerely without the cynical immature comments which is really not necessary if your aim is to help edify and enrich the biblical understanding of others? after all this is not a comedy website and we don’t visit it to laugh or poke fun at others who sincerely believe differently.

    Where has Deborah “laughed or poked fun at others who sincerely believe differently?” Her fight is for the truth that others don’t spend eternity in hell and her fight is against principalities of evil not people! What is so funny about that? Do you see her articles and comments as such, because then you have a form of self Godliness, in fact, you are unsaved because you do not have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit in you, therefore you do not have any assurance of your salvation.

    Your salvation is generated from your own fleshly ‘ability’ to overcome your sins on a daily basis.

    Is your salvation a burden to you? What happens to you if you just happen to think of something that you should not have (a sin) and before you can ask God to forgive you, you happen to die (i.e. a sudden heart attack, a car crash etc.) what happens to you then? or are you perfect? and I am not laughing or poking fun at you, I am extremely serious.

  • Michael

    Dear Elbie your comment…”Seems as if its intended to offend and cause a reaction. I however wont be sucked into mud slinging games. I enjoy some of the articles on this website though, but I can assure you that many would prefer it without the “facetious” style comments”.

    I detect pride (lack of humility) in this.First of all it is you who taking offense and defending your over-sensitive feelings. You have also over-reacted and I suspect you will react to this over and over again instead of trying to be objective and truthful…you have exagerated and exageration is a deceitful human reaction but it is nevertheless a lie…Deborah, mudslinging?? I do not recall ever seeing this…she stands up for the biblical truth and yes she is human and gets angry when people argue against it and do not bother to read the truths therein and try to defend their own selfish and compromised misconceptions which they pick up from mentors that teach error.
    Stop being a hypocrit and yes look deep in your heart and repent of this attitude.

  • Burning Lamp

    Thanks Debs – I sometimes make mistakes – I have impaired eyesight that makes it hard to read the small print.

    Elbie just can’t seem to grasp the simple plan of salvation, but it is one that man manages to complicate.

  • Michael

    And Jemfishy…you are right mate…well said…could not have said it better myself.

    Having said that I want to make it very clear…I do not patronise any human being, least of all myself…we all are so imperfect…I have only one mentor and that is the Lord Jesus Christ.

    The huge problem in the church today is that people look at men and women to follow and set them up on a pedestal…this is where it goes wrong…there has always been a sinful human tendancy to worship men and woman and make them “gods”…the Virgin Mary,St Paul,Moses,Elijah,the Pope,John Calvin,Billy Graham,John MacArthur,Benny Hinn, Angus Buchan etc etc. They follow the idol and defend them. Nothing has changed…1Cor3:4…For when one says, “I follow Paul,” and another, “I follow Apollos,” are you not mere men?

    1 Corinthians 1:12 What I mean is this: One of you says, “I follow Paul”; another, “I follow Apollos”; another, “I follow Cephas”; still another, “I follow Christ.”

    Man is manipulative, sinful and full of pride, even his outward humility is false.This is where Satan plays his hand and that is why the church is in chaos…if each and every true believer focused entirely on Jesus and read the scriptures honestly and searched them with an honest heart.
    Brethren…go to Jesus only and see no other worthy of praise…go to Jesus for your needs…go to Jesus for your healing. Trust Him completely and accept His answers and never have the audacity to hold God to ransom as the false teachers do when they teach “name it and claim it”

  • Michael

    I just want to add…that mankind will never find God in people…only in Christ. Our humanness craves love and the approval of people especially those we admire and see good qualities in…sadly although there is no wrong in this tendancy in itself…this tendancy is polluted and contaminated by sin, and Satan will use this to misdirect us. Satan will use good works as a red herring and a smoke screen to take you off-track. He uses people in the scriptures to follow…people that were godly and great saints,people that were as close to Jesus Himself…nothing is closer by human standards as a mother and worthy of respect, Jesus’s best friends…his disciples when he was on earth but they were all sinners that needed to be saved. The sinful flesh never seeks the true God but wants a “god” on it’s own terms. A “god” that winks at sin,
    a “god” that you can worship in your own way, a “god” that is friendly communal “god” that wants unity with prostituted religions. They do not realise you cannot find God on your terms only on His. You see you cannot see God because He is Holy,Omnipresent,Omnipotent and Omniscience…our sin separates us from this and that is why God had to send a man, His Son in the form of man to breach the barrier and die for us…a love no man can ever understand because it’s God’s love…nevertheless He came in the flesh for us to see,to speak,to heal, to show His concern and eventually He gave Himself for us all because He knows we will perish without Him and spend an eternity in hell…separated from Him forever.
    The normal,carnal man hates this and so other religions were started.Pagan worship,false gods and prophets and even false Christianity. The Crusaders were false, the Inquisition, the Pope, the RC church,
    the Mormoms, the 7th Day eventists, the Jehovah Witnesses but this was not enough. Now the deception is right amongst us in the so-called “true believers”…Oral Roberts,the Hagans,Joyce Meyers,Osteen,Jakes,Benny Hinns…the extreme W.O.F movement creeping in, the Angus Buchan followers who have been influenced and relate to these new teachings…Dominionism, Prosperity,Name it and Claim it, you have no victory if you are poor and sick, and Kingdom Now teachings which if you really read and study the scripures with a total honest and surrendered heart are quite clearly wrong. I really doubt if people who start this have been saved.They follow Jesus on their own terms…a reinvented saviour and not the One in the scriptures.
    When people who are affiliated with these movements or have been influenced by them come on this website they will immediately react because the flesh has been offended, their selves, their beliefs, their feelings, their mentors and their heroes.

  • elbie

    so how were YOU born again debbie? share your testimony with me.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Elbie

    I tell you what, why don’t you answer the questions already posed to you by me, BL and Jemfishy.

    You come on this blog and accuse me like the father of lies himself and then expect me to be all accommodating to you. Not. If you had the Holy Spirit in you Elbie you would not need to hear my testimony to know I am a genuinely born again Christian because the Holy Spirit in you would confirm that what is said on this website is ENOUGH TESTIMONY to the TRUTH. But you hear nothing, because there is no Holy Spirit in your life and you proved that in your FIRST comment where you left out the workings of the Holy Spirit.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Elbie

    Even Spurgen who I don’t like to quote said the following

    “You must not expect that you will be perfect in ‘repentance’ before you are saved. No Christian can be perfect. ‘Repentance’ is a grace. Some people preach it as a condition of salvation. Condition of nonsense! There are no conditions of salvation. God gives the salvation himself…”

    — Charles Spurgeon

    SOURCE: (Charles Spurgeon, from a sermon titled, REPENTANCE UNTO LIFE, preached at the New Park Street Chapel, Southwark, on September 23, 1855)

  • Burning Lamp

    Perhaps this can put into perspective the position of Charles Spurgeon who the Calvinists LOVE to put out there as their poster boy. I think he may been conflicted on this matter and there is no doubt of his love and concern for lost souls. Following is a quote from an excellent website that stands for sound doctrine: (Debs, please put in the block quotes as I am so computer-challenged.)

    Spurgeon was NOT a Calvinist on all points, though he may have thought he was. I sincerely believe that Spurgeon didn’t quite fully understand Calvin’s teachings. Read Surgeon’s comments on this Calvinist doctrine as he understands it…

    “If anyone should ask me what I mean by a Calvinist, I should reply, “He is one who says, Salvation is of the Lord.” I cannot find in Scripture any other doctrine than this. It is the essence of the Bible. “He only is my rock and my salvation.” Tell me anything contrary to this truth, and it will be a heresy; tell me a heresy, and I shall find its essence here, that it has departed from this great, this fundamental, this rock-truth, “God is my rock and my salvation.” What is the heresy of Rome, but the addition of something to the perfect merits of Jesus Christ—the bringing in of the works of the flesh, to assist in our justification? And what is the heresy of Arminianism but the addition of something to the work of the Redeemer? Every heresy, if brought to the touchstone, will discover itself here. I have my own private opinion that there is no such thing as preaching Christ and Him crucified, unless we preach what nowadays is called Calvinism. It is a nickname to call it Calvinism; Calvinism is the gospel, and nothing else. I do not believe we can preach the gospel, if we do not preach justification by faith, without works; nor unless we preach the sovereignty of God in His dispensation of grace; nor unless we exalt the electing, unchangeable, eternal, immutable, conquering love of Jehovah; nor do I think we can preach the gospel, unless we base it upon the special and particular redemption of His elect and chosen people which Christ wrought out upon the cross; nor can I comprehend a gospel which lets saints fall away after they are called, and suffers the children of God to be burned in the fires of damnation after having once believed in Jesus. Such a gospel I abhor.”

    SOURCE: Charles H. Spurgeon; from The Autobiography of Charles H. Spurgeon, Curts and Jennings, Cincinnati – Chicago – St. Louis, 1898, Vol. I., Page 172.

    http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/False%20Doctrines/Calvinism/spurgeon.htm

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    BL

    I dunno hey, I’ve read some stuff by Spurgeon that has made the hair stand up on my neck! But anyhow, I don’t want this to turn into a discussion about Spurgeon. I want Elbie to face upto the questions posed to him.

  • Sharon

    It is by faith that we are saved, not by works. But we must be careful to understand faith according to how the Bible describes it. Galatians is written to make sure none stray into thinking they add to grace by their own righteousness, because if salvation could have been by works, Jesus would not have died. But James was also written, so that none would think that an empty faith without a heart repenting and obeying was possible (even the demons believe and tremble). It is not faith and repentance and confession and baptism, but the sort of faith that repents, that confesses, that obeys the Lord in baptism. That sort of faith. A faith that continues in deliberate rebellion is not Biblical, saving faith. A faith that thinks it ‘adds’ to God’s grace by works is not Biblical faith. So we rest in God’s salvation, even while, with the help of God’s indwelling Holy Spirit, we strive to obey God.
    It is concerning to me to see how quickly Deborah decides that Elbie can’t be saved and doesn’t have the Holy Spirit. Her reasonings for this do not sound Biblical but more based on anger at his responses. The fact that he had not yet mentioned the Holy Spirit’s workings in his short posts is not a logical reason for deciding he does not have the Holy Spirit, nor a Biblical reason. If he believes in Jesus, then he does have the Holy Spirit. We are saved by faith in the Lord Jesus Christ and what he did for us on the cross. We are not saved by a perfect understanding of all scripture, and definitely not a perfect agreement with Deborah. Be careful, Deborah, you sound like someone whose anger leads them to jump to harsh and unloving conclusions.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Sharon

    It is concerning to me that you are not concerned that Elbie does not think that I am a Christian and questions my salvation, but yet I can lambasted for responding to Elbie in a tone to what he deserved. You seen quite happy to have him insult me over and over and over again, but if I open my mouth, I must be reprimand. If Elbie’s salvation is by works then he needs to go and sort out his salvation with Jesus Christ and quickly.

    >> If he believes in Jesus, then he does have the Holy Spirit.

    Wrong, it depends WHAT Jesus he is referring to (a false Jesus – yes). And if his gospel is leavened with doctrines of demons then his Jesus is most definitely NOT the biblical Jesus.

    Be careful Sharon who you point fingers at!

  • Burning Lamp

    Sharon, you speak truth until you turn on Deborah for questioning if Elbie is truly saved after he challenges her.

    There are basic fruits that even young Christians will display to show that they are truly born-again. To comment on these observations is not judging the heart, it is merely raising the question. That, my dear, is the loving thing to do. Yes, Deborah has spunk and spice in her responses, but if she didn’t have those qualities she would have thrown in the towel long ago – most people would not endure under the heavy hand of destructive criticism directed at her day after day.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    BL

    >> There are basic fruits that even young Christians will display to show that they are truly born-again.

    Exactly and genuine Christians do NOT attack one another as Albie has done to us.. It is obvious something is horribly wrong.

    >> Yes, Deborah has spunk and spice in her responses, but if she didn’t have those qualities she would have thrown in the towel long ago – most people would not endure under the heavy hand of destructive criticism directed at her day after day.

    I am slowly morphing to look like a duck; I got the feathers…(it’s water off my back) – I’m just missing a beak, and some webbed feet LOL.

  • elbie

    [deleted – it would appear that Elbie is not one bit interested in answering our questions, he is not even reading them – so I am deleting his comments from now on – The spirit that speaks through this man is certainly not of God based on the things he has said and what he believes and his actions so far.]

  • Smuggler

    [EDITED by DTW: See comment by PW here: Calvinism – What would these pastors have done if they were there ]

    PW/Pieter & cohorts . . .
    If you think Debora is “harsh” in her replies, then the Bible, it’s Message and Christianity is NOT for you. In fact I don’t think you will “like” God when you will stand before His throne one day. He is really harsh. Do you KNOW that He hates sin and WILL sent you to a very harsh environment forever if you don’t repent and submit to him ?

    Debora is only following Christ and his example like we are commanded to do.

    Jesus himself got “a little” harsh and literally whipped people out of the Temple, He rebuked the church leaders and called then Snakes, Hypocrites and Vipers, He called King Herod a Jackal etc.

    Apostle Paul imitated Christ by being very direct and “harsh” and then explains why he is so “harsh”.

    Gal 1:9 What we have told you in the past I am now telling you again: If anyone proclaims to you a gospel contrary to what you received, let that person be condemned!
    Gal 1:10 Am I now trying to win the approval of people or of God? Or am I trying to please people? If I were still trying to please people, I would not be Christ’s servant.

    Paul then also instructs others to follow his example to do the same !

    Tit 2:15 These things speak, and exhort, and rebuke with all authority. Let no man despise thee.

    So, PW/Pieter & cohorts… Stop playing God by un-righteously judging followers of Christ. Let’s focus on the message and leave the “packaging” alone. Just because YOU feel that the message is coming to you in a “harsh” packaging, will not be an excuse accepted by God for not accepting the TRUTH that is inside the Parcel.
    The packaging can’t save you!

  • elbie

    [deleted – apparently Elbie can’t stay away from DTW and continues to spew mean nasty words.]

  • Burning Lamp

    I just noticed that the article states:

    1.The Gospel of John MacArthur, Ray Comfort, Kirk Cameron, Paul Washer, Jack Chick, Aiden Tozer, DAVID CLOUD, and others, requires that a person forsake (or be willing to forsake) their lifestyle of sin, make amends, and change their ways, as a prerequisite to saving faith.

    This really shocked me as I did not believe that Brother Cloud teaches this. So I found this clarification by David Cloud –
    he had been accused of teaching Lordship Salvation, but this is definitely not the case. I felt the need to clear his name. I don’t agree with his KJV only stance, but on all other issues we are on the same page.

    I was also shocked to see Tozer listed. I haven’t picked up on this in his writings, but that requires further research.

    Lordship Salvation is a subtle, deadly error that creeps in and needs to be exposed. Thank you for posting this.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    BL

    Cool, what I will do is remove his name. Thanks for doing the research I was going to go and check this evening – you have saved me a whoooole lotttaaaa time :)

  • Pieter/PW

    I would like to apologize, my intention was never to attack Deborah or any one on this blog. Further I am not defending Elbie as a person. I merely stated that we should always be careful how we present ourselves and our faith on open blogs. There are allot of young Christians and generals seekers of the truth that reads open platforms and my fear is that this might drive people away from the faith totally. Again this was/is only my opinion and was never intended to insult, aggrieve or sow division.
    I tried explaining this in length in post to this site, which was deleted. That is 100% the administrators right to do, since protecting the faith and integrity of this site is very important. Looking back at the letter I said and stated things I truly regret today. Please accept my apology.
    I never expected anyone to compromise their conviction. If my comments indicated that intent I apologize for that as well. I have always been beter at communicating verbally than written.
    Sincerely I apologize for any comments that was deemed wrong from me.
    To just clear up something, I am not trying to hide under different names, I use PW or Pieter on various blogs and the other day wrongfully used PW when responding here. If allowed back to comment I wil ensure to use Pieter so that there is no future confusion.
    Kind Regards
    Pieter

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    PW

    >> There are allot of young Christians and generals seekers of the truth that reads open platforms and my fear is that this might drive people away from the faith totally

    Once you understand that not I, not you, not Angus and his happy-go-lucky laugh can save people but Jesus Christ you will understand that if people are seeking the truth they will HEAR THE TRUTH (the message itself) because the HOLY SPIRIT IS ALREADY SPEAKING TO THEM. If there is no Holy Spirit involvement in their life (because the person has chucked the Holy Spirit out the door long ago), then dude all the lovely happy words in the world is not going to change anyone. You completely fail to understand the workings of the Holy Spirit – HE is the one that leads us into all truth (not this blog) and HE CONVICTS us – not me. Do you understand? Seriously. This is a question I am asking.

    I forgive you Pieter (PW) no harm done.

  • Pieter

    Thank you Deborah
    Yes I do understand.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Pieter

    Groovy!

  • Steve

    First, Peter did not have the Holy Spirit while Jesus was with Him. The Spirit is the replacement Jesus promised when he left.

    Joh 16:7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.

    Second, receiving of the Holy Spirit is the definition of Born again.. third,If you think you can just say a “sinners prayer and be “Saved”, you are in big trouble…Lets look at a few scriptures for the final word:

    Php 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

    1Co 6:19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?

    Gal 5:19 -21
    Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
    Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

    1Jn 3:24 And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.

    Jas 1:22 But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.
    Mar 9:47 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire:

    Jas 2:22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?

    Jas 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

    1Jn 2:15 Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.

    1Jn 2:16 For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.
    Jn 2:17 And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever.

    Pro 1:29 For that they hated knowledge, and did not choose the fear of the LORD:
    Pro 1:30 They would none of my counsel: they despised all my reproof.
    Pro 1:31 Therefore shall they eat of the fruit of their own way, and be filled with their own devices.
    Pro 1:32 For the turning away of the simple shall slay them, and the prosperity of fools shall destroy them.

    Tit 3:8 This is a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable unto men.

    Mat 7:20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

    1Jn 2:3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
    1Jn 2:4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
    1Jn 2:5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.

    Mat 12:36 But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment.
    Mat 12:37 For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned.

    Jas 1:12 Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him.

    1Jn 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God

    Rom 6:12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.

    Rom 6:18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.

    Rom 6:22 But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.

    Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

    Rom 6:14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

    Heb 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

    2Pe 1:9 But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.

    Jesus even said it …

    Joh 5:14 Afterward Jesus findeth him in the temple, and said unto him, Behold, thou art made whole: sin no more, lest a worse thing come unto thee.
    Joh 5:15 The man departed, and told the Jews that it was Jesus, which had made him whole.

    Joh 8:10 When Jesus had lifted up himself, and saw none but the woman, he said unto her, Woman, where are those thine accusers? hath no man condemned thee?
    Joh 8:11 She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more.

    Psa 101:3 I will set no wicked thing before mine eyes: I hate the work of them that turn aside; it shall not cleave to me.

    1Jn 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

    To repent means to reconsider, to turn away from or to turn in a new direction. to believe means to take action…be a doer of the word and you wont sin…if you are truly reborn and have the Spirit of God in you, your sinful nature will go away as you grow in the Word:

    Joh 5:38 And ye have not his word abiding in you: for whom he hath sent, him ye believe not.

    The Lord wants all of His children to turn away from the works of Satan and turn towards Him.. doesn’t mean that all will. Don’t be lukewarm or God will refuse you at the gate:

    Rev 3:16 So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.

    Mat 7:13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:

    Mat 7:14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

    If you are the same person you were before asking the Lord to take over your life and guide you, then either it never happened or you are ignoring the Spirit of God:

    1Co 6:20 For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God’s.

    God Bless, I hope this opens some eyes and ears…

  • Michael

    Here is a brief answer that might help…

    “What is Lordship salvation?”

    Answer: Lordship Salvation emphasizes that submitting to Christ as Lord over your life goes hand-in-hand with trusting in Christ to be saved. It also focuses on a changed life as the result of salvation. Those who believe in Lordship Salvation would have serious doubts about a person who claims to believe in Christ but does not have good works evident in his life. The Bible does teach that faith in Christ will result in a changed life (2 Corinthians 5:17; Galatians 5:22-23; James 2:14-26).

    However, depending on the person and his circumstances, spiritual growth sometimes occurs quickly, and other times it takes a long time for changes to become evident, and even then the changes may not be evident to everyone. The Bible clearly teaches that salvation is by faith alone, apart from works (John 3:16; Ephesians 2:8-9). The Bible also declares that a life changes after salvation (Ephesians 2:10). So it is a difficult balance to make. We do know, however, that we are not to judge another as to the state of his/her eternal soul (Matthew 7:1). Only God knows who are His sheep and He will mature each of us according to His perfect time table.

    So, is Lordship Salvation biblical? Again, it cannot be denied that faith in Christ produces a change (2 Corinthians 5:17). A person who has been delivered from sin by faith in Christ should not desire to remain in a life of sin (Romans 6:2). At the same time, submitting to the Lordship of Jesus Christ is an issue of spiritual growth, not salvation. The Christian life is a process of submitting to God in increasing measure (2 Peter 1:5-8). A person does not have to submit to God in every area of his or her life in order to be saved. A person simply has to recognize that he or she is a sinner, in need of Jesus Christ for salvation, and place trust in Him (John 3:16; Ephesians 2:8-9). Jesus is Lord (Philippians 2:10). Christians absolutely should submit to Him (James 4:7). A changed life and submission to Christ’s lordship are the result of salvation, not a requirement for salvation.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Steve

    What are you trying to say… umm…. are you agreeing with unbiblical Lordship Salvation or not? because…

    >> First, Peter did not have the Holy Spirit while Jesus was with Him. The Spirit is the replacement Jesus promised when he left.

    And who WALKED WITH PETER until the Holy Spirit came as a replacement? Yes,Jesus Christ the SON OF GOD who is One of the Three in the Trinity! During that time the Jews offered sacrifices and spilt the blood of a spotless animal (lamb) for God to wash away their sin. BUT before Jesus was crucified, could Jesus not Convict Peter of his sin? Of course yes! Could Jesus not forgive Peter of his sin? Of course yes! Could Jesus not save Peter? Of course yes! And The Holy Spirit was around before Jesus was crucified, He just did not abide IN people. And finally the biggie, did Peter not have a conscience given to him by God? Of course yes.

    You see, this working for your salvation without the power of the Holy Spirit is nothing but a Calvinist (ELECT) teaching where the Elect believe they can do these things because God chose them before birth to be saved. If you don’t need the Holy Spirit Steve then you don’t need Jesus either and that would explain why John MacArthur denies the blood of Jesus and calls is just LIQUID. IT means nothing to him because his salvation along with other Calvinists and Lordship Salvationists is purely of the FLESH.

    Biblical salvation is working per se for your salvation WITH THE POWER of the Holy Spirit not without! The Holy Spirit empowers you to CHANGE your ways – therefore it is not work, it becomes a natural process, sometimes a difficult one, but yes we will change our ways.

    If you don’t have the Holy Spirit abiding in you you are NOT SAVED and any changes you make to improve your sinful life means nothing. It’s like smoking, a smoker can quit smoking (stop sinning), does it make him saved? No, it just makes him a non-smoker. There are millions of people out there who do good and think they live a sinless life and are not saved.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Michael

    What you have stated is Biblical salvation and repentance…

    Read Steve’s comment (the first few lines) to get a better idea as to what unbiblical ‘Lordship Salvation’ REALLY MEANS!

    PS, please answer your email :)

  • Michael

    Deb’s I agree with you… that’s exactly what I have backed…choose Christ first and his redemption and let the Holy Spirit do the rest…it’s as simple as that. God never confuses us like the theologians do…His message is so simple that it fails man’s pride and interlect to understand and accept it because of vanity…ie why do the nations imagine a vain thing…Why do the nations so furiously rage together? Why do the people imagine a vain thing? Let us break their bonds a sunder, and cast away their yokes from us. He that dwelleth in heaven shall laugh them to scorn; the Lord shall have them in derision. Thou shalt break them, Thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter’s vessel. (Psalm 2: 1-4)
    This is an answer to why people reject the truth about Christ’s full message and ultimate saving grace, that’s the way I understand it.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Michael

    Beeeeooootiful!

    Now answer your email LOL.

  • Steve

    What exactly do you think it means to “follow Christ”?

    Joh 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
    Joh 3:4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother’s womb, and be born?
    Joh 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
    Joh 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

    If you havent received the Holy Spirit, your works mean nothing..neither does professing to “know” Christ…

    Mat 12:50 For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.

    Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

    Can you ignore the will of God… and get into Heaven?

    Mat 15:8 This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and
    honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me.

    2Co 7:1 Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.

    Jas 1:27 Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world.

    Mat 25:34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
    Mat 25:35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
    Mat 25:36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
    Mat 25:37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?
    Mat 25:38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?
    Mat 25:39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?
    Mat 25:40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.
    Mat 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
    Mat 25:42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
    Mat 25:43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
    Mat 25:44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
    Mat 25:45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
    Mat 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

    Jas 4:13 Go to now, ye that say, To day or to morrow we will go into such a city, and continue there a year, and buy and sell, and get gain:
    Jas 4:14 Whereas ye know not what shall be on the morrow. For what is your life? It is even a vapour, that appeareth for a little time, and then vanisheth away.
    Jas 4:15 For that ye ought to say, If the Lord will, we shall live, and do this, or that.

    Jas 4:17 Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin.

    Jas 1:22 But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.
    Jas 1:23 For if any be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glass:
    Jas 1:24 For he beholdeth himself, and goeth his way, and straightway forgetteth what manner of man he was.

    Joh 14:21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

    Luk 16:13 No servant can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.

    Rom 16:18 For they that are such serve not our Lord Jesus Christ, but their own belly; and by good words and fair speeches deceive the hearts of the simple.

    God is the master , you are the servant…Jesus is Lord of all
    Can you ignore the will of God… and get into Heaven?

    Col 3:24 Knowing that of the Lord ye shall receive the reward of the inheritance: for ye serve the Lord Christ.
    Col 3:25 But he that doeth wrong shall receive for the wrong which he hath done: and there is no respect of persons.

    Luk 8:11 Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God.
    Luk 8:12 Those by the way side are they that hear; then cometh the devil, and taketh away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.
    Luk 8:13 They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away.
    Luk 8:14 And that which fell among thorns are they, which, when they have heard, go forth, and are choked with cares and riches and pleasures of this life, and bring no fruit to perfection.
    Luk 8:15 But that on the good ground are they, which in an honest and good heart, having heard the word, keep it, and bring forth fruit with patience.

    hmm…Keep the word of God and bring forth fruit…sounds like an order from the one you agree to follow!

    1Co 3:16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
    1Co 3:17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.
    1Co 3:18 Let no man deceive himself. If any man among you seemeth to be wise in this world, let him become a fool, that he may be wise.
    1Co 3:19 For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is written, He taketh the wise in their own craftiness.

    1Jn 2:15 Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.

    1Jn 2:16 For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.

    Rom 12:2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by
    the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and
    acceptable, and perfect will of God.

    and one more thing..Salvation is a promise not given until the end when Jesus comes with His reward to give every man according to his works.

    2Jn 1:8 Look to yourselves, that we lose not those things which we have wrought, but that we receive a full reward.
    2Jn 1:9 Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.

    Heb 10:36 For ye have need of patience, that, after ye have done the will of God, ye might receive the promise.

    Heb 12:2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

    1Pe 1:5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

    1Pe 1:9 Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.

    Mat 16:27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

    Rev 22:12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.
    Rev 22:13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.
    Rev 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

    If you don’t do the will of the Father you will not enter into the kingdom of Heaven.
    If the Lord is not your boss… who is? Are you a servant of the most High, doing His will,by the power of the Holy Spirit given to you or your own will?

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Steve

    Oh boy…

    >> hmm…Keep the word of God and bring forth fruit…sounds like an order from the one you agree to follow!

    Do you keep the Word of God by your strength without the Holy Spirit? I keep the Word of God and bring forth FRUIT because of the Holy Spirit that abides IN ME and the Holy Spirit LEADS ME into ALL TRUTH. I obey the Word of God because the Holy Spirit empowers me to. I don’t do it out of my own mind.

    Good works and obedience are results of salvation, not requirements for salvation.

    >> and one more thing..Salvation is a promise not given until the end when Jesus comes with His reward to give every man according to his works

    Dude, firstly there is justification, this is when we are first saved, when we accept Jesus into our lives and then the Holy Spirit comes to abide in us, then there is sanctification the part where we grow to be like Christ, i.e., we grow in holiness with the POWER of the HOLY SPIRIT. When we are saved we have assurance of our salvation, the Bible promises this to us. We are SEALED by the Holy Spirit. We have do to something really bad to lose our salvation like denounce Jesus Christ and follow another religion (god). Only in the end we will receive our full salvation, in the end we will receive our full gloried state.

    Pulling out line after line of scripture means nothing if you are missing the BIG PICTURE Steve.

  • Dion

    Hi there Deborah!
    Loooooooonnnnnggg time no speak. Chris suggested I visit DTW for a change to update myself on all the fights you have to sit up with, and I’m so glad to note your fire and conviction has not dwindled since we last spoke. You hang in there my Sister.., you just hang in there and our Almighty God will through the workings of the Holy Spirit, give you additional strength to endure. Love in Christ, Dion

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Hi Dion!!

    Thank you for your encouragement!!! So much appreciated! I’m hanging in, and not going to budge ever :) The truth is the TRUTH.

  • Michael

    Yeah…and Joyce Meyer claims she does not sin no more…this is absolutely a lie and what is frightening is her following…Benny Hinn lies as well and so does Angus Buchan.

    Yes all of us are sinners and not perfect but when we go on stage and blatantly tell untruths what credibility to we have in preaching the gospel…with any body who is honest… absolutely zilch!
    It amazes me how people who genuinely want a changed life and salvation can fall for this…is there such spiritual blindness is the rhetorical question???

  • Michael

    A changed life and submission to Christ’s lordship are the result of salvation, not a requirement for salvation.

    That’s exactly what I said…putting the cart before the horse!

  • Steve

    Hi Deb,

    Sanctification brings us into …OBEDIENCE….

    1Pe 1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied

    And we obey the truth through the Spirit…

    1Pe 1:22 Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently:
    1Pe 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

    The Lord says He will reign over all except His enemies..
    Luk 19:24 And he said unto them that stood by, Take from him the pound, and give it to him that hath ten pounds.
    Luk 19:25 (And they said unto him, Lord, he hath ten pounds.)
    Luk 19:26 For I say unto you, That unto every one which hath shall be given; and from him that hath not, even that he hath shall be taken away from him.
    Luk 19:27 But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me.

    what do you think REIGN over them means?

    Again in Matthew, we are told to be faithful SERVANTS:

    Mat 25:14 For the kingdom of heaven is as a man travelling into a far country, who called his own servants, and delivered unto them his goods.
    Mat 25:15 And unto one he gave five talents, to another two, and to another one; to every man according to his several ability; and straightway took his journey.
    Mat 25:16 Then he that had received the five talents went and traded with the same, and made them other five talents.
    Mat 25:17 And likewise he that had received two, he also gained other two.
    Mat 25:18 But he that had received one went and digged in the earth, and hid his lord’s money.
    Mat 25:19 After a long time the lord of those servants cometh, and reckoneth with them.
    Mat 25:20 And so he that had received five talents came and brought other five talents, saying, Lord, thou deliveredst unto me five talents: behold, I have gained beside them five talents more.
    Mat 25:21 His lord said unto him, Well done, thou good and faithful servant: thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.
    Mat 25:22 He also that had received two talents came and said, Lord, thou deliveredst unto me two talents: behold, I have gained two other talents beside them.
    Mat 25:23 His lord said unto him, Well done, good and faithful servant; thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.

    and for the one who doesnt…

    Mat 25:24 Then he which had received the one talent came and said, Lord, I knew thee that thou art an hard man, reaping where thou hast not sown, and gathering where thou hast not strawed:
    Mat 25:25 And I was afraid, and went and hid thy talent in the earth: lo, there thou hast that is thine.
    Mat 25:26 His lord answered and said unto him, Thou wicked and slothful servant, thou knewest that I reap where I sowed not, and gather where I have not strawed:
    Mat 25:27 Thou oughtest therefore to have put my money to the exchangers, and then at my coming I should have received mine own with usury.
    Mat 25:28 Take therefore the talent from him, and give it unto him which hath ten talents.
    Mat 25:29 For unto every one that hath shall be given, and he shall have abundance: but from him that hath not shall be taken away even that which he hath.
    Mat 25:30 And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

    We are each given different gifts of the Spirit and are expected to use them..that is why we are the “body of Christ”..the foot, the hand etc..

    We are also a representative…the light

    Luk 8:16 No man, when he hath lighted a candle, covereth it with a vessel, or putteth it under a bed; but setteth it on a candlestick, that they which enter in may see the light.
    Luk 8:17 For nothing is secret, that shall not be made manifest; neither any thing hid, that shall not be known and come abroad.
    Luk 8:18 Take heed therefore how ye hear: for whosoever hath, to him shall be given; and whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken even that which he seemeth to have.

    Mat 24:44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.
    Mat 24:45 Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath made ruler over his household, to give them meat in due season?
    Mat 24:46 Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing.
    Mat 24:47 Verily I say unto you, That he shall make him ruler over all his goods.

    Luk 12:46 The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers.
    Luk 12:47 And that servant, which knew his lord’s will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.

    you said “When we are saved we have assurance of our salvation”

    lets look at a couple things the word says about the Spirit and the promise:

    Mat 12:43 When the unclean spirit is gone out of a man, he walketh through dry places, seeking rest, and findeth none.
    Mat 12:44 Then he saith, I will return into my house from whence I came out; and when he is come, he findeth it empty, swept, and garnished.
    Mat 12:45 Then goeth he, and taketh with himself seven other spirits more wicked than himself, and they enter in and dwell there: and the last state of that man is worse than the first. Even so shall it be also unto this wicked generation

    For those who turn from the commandment after knowing it and being made sinless…

    2Pe 1:9 But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.
    2Pe 2:20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
    2Pe 2:21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.

    Even after being sanctified by the Spirit, one can receive punishment…

    Heb 10:29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be
    thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and
    hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified,
    an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

    and it is impossible to get it back once it is taken from you…

    Heb 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
    Heb 6:5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
    Heb 6:6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

    Jesus gives many parables about following Him and having what it takes to make the journey..some make it and some don’t..only those that do the will of the Father.
    Jesus tells those that honor Him with their lips and don’t have a real relationship with Him they will be refused…If it is so easy to just say a sinners prayer, why is the Bible so full of instructions..Doing the will of the Lord is an amazing journey started in childlike faith,ending in obedience,calling Jesus your Lord. Which can only be done if you have been given the free gift of God which is the Holy Spirit:

    The only way to call Jesus your Lord is if you have the Holy Spirit guiding you..

    1Co 12:3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.

    That is why you are known by your fruits..because they are the fruits of the Spirit:

    Eph 5:6 Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.
    Eph 5:7 Be not ye therefore partakers with them.
    Eph 5:8 For ye were sometimes darkness, but now are ye light in the Lord: walk as children of light:
    Eph 5:9 (For the fruit of the Spirit is in all goodness and righteousness and truth;)
    Eph 5:10 Proving what is acceptable unto the Lord.
    Eph 5:11 And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them.

    Mat 7:16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
    Mat 7:17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
    Mat 7:18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
    Mat 7:19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
    Mat 7:20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
    Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
    Mat 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
    Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

    Again in Galatians, we are told to walk in the Spirit..

    Gal 5:16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.
    Gal 5:17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.
    Gal 5:18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.
    Gal 5:19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
    Gal 5:20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
    Gal 5:21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

    Deb, with every point I make, I have used the Word of God, shown to me by the Holy Spirit.. If you are going to tell me I am wrong, show me using scripture.. chapter and verse, not personal feelings.

    With Love,Steve

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Steve

    What are you on about? What are you trying to disprove? The entire point of this article was this:

    Good works are results of salvation, not requirements for salvation. What is your stand on this?

  • Hester

    Dear Steve

    I would like for you to tell me in plain English / Afrikaans what you are actually saying, because i really do not get your point. I get the impression that you are saying that once you have sinned the Holy Spirit leaves you and then your salvation is lost and can never be regained. Is that what you are saying? Because if you are, then i am in serious trouble and can just as well end my relationship with the Lord now, because according to your theory my relationship is a one sided affair (only from my side), because i have and still do sin probably every day. I agree 100% with Deborah we cannot wait until we are pure (free of sin) and then turn to the Lord because that ain’t never gonna happen.

  • Steve

    No Deb, Your article is titled Lordship Salvation, getting the cart before the horse.. You are telling people not to submit themselves to the will of God,and that they don’t have to turn away from their sinful ways as a condition of salvation.

    Also, Good works are a result of being reborn in the spirit, not a result of Salvation.. which is received at the end.

    I don’t care what name you put on it… you have to recognize Jesus as your Lord and Saviour. Repent means to turn away from sin and towards God. You must learn and keep His commandments. Jesus is the Word of God made flesh…to believe in Him means to take action, to obey His teachings, else you really don’t believe.

    You must turn away from your sin if you want to enter the kingdom of Heaven. To repent means turn away from, or to, reconsider.. rethink..doesn’t mean keep going, do the same thing,stay in your sin…

    You show your faith and belief in Christ by turning from your sin.
    You must work at repentance to show you are sincere and truly believe..that is what walking by faith and not by sight is all about!

    Act 26:20 But shewed first unto them of Damascus, and at Jerusalem, and throughout all the coasts of Judaea, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, and do works meet for repentance.

    Act 17:30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:

    Act 8:22 Repent therefore of this thy wickedness, and pray God, if perhaps the thought of thine heart may be forgiven thee.

    You must repent first in order to be forgiven of past sins:

    Act 3:19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;
    Act 3:20 And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you:

    Luk 13:5 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.
    Luk 13:6 He spake also this parable; A certain man had a fig tree planted in his vineyard; and he came and sought fruit thereon, and found none.
    Luk 13:7 Then said he unto the dresser of his vineyard, Behold, these three years I come seeking fruit on this fig tree, and find none: cut it down; why cumbereth it the ground?
    Luk 13:8 And he answering said unto him, Lord, let it alone this year also, till I shall dig about it, and dung it:
    Luk 13:9 And if it bear fruit, well: and if not, then after that thou shalt cut it down.

    Mar 1:15 And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.

    If you think you can just honor Him with your lips, and not obey His commandments, you are dead wrong. Any time you break a commandment, you ARE sinning. If you turn towards God and ask Him for forgiveness and the Holy Spirit, He will give it freely. You are then His..He is in you and you in Him..You are His temple , His place of residence..He lives in you. Do you think you can still live in sin with the Spirit of God living in you? Please reconsider some of your statements.

    Have a blessed day

  • Michael

    “Sanctification brings us into …OBEDIENCE….”

    No…this is nonsense and causes confusion.God the Holy Spirit does…no experience or experiences supercede or replace direct biblical guidance…in context of course…quoting verse after verse of scripture TOTALLY OUT OF CONTEXT is NOT the work or guidance of the Holy Spirit.

    Happenings and experiences are what the charismatics seek after…they are subjective and God always deals and leads us objectively.

  • Burning Lamp

    Steve, you misunderstand Hebrews 6:6 among other verses you quote. It is hard to know exactly where you are going with all these verses, but I think I have a clue with Heb. 6:6.
    Some mistakenly interpret this to mean that one can lose their salvation which is not the case.

    Methinks you need to do a study on Eternal Security of the believer. The life of a Christian starts out being a babe in Christ needing the milk and then growing up to walk and eat meat.

    Check this out for starters:

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Steve

    First, stop lying, second, LOL, you must be the most sinless human on this planet and you do this all by your own works (without the power of the Holy Spirit) and on top of this by your own admission your are NOT saved – because you say salvation is only received in the end.
    The bible says of those who think they are sinless: “If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us” -1 John 1:8
    Who can say, I have made my heart clean, I am pure from my sin?” (Proverbs 20:9).
    For there is not a just man upon earth, that doeth good, and sinneth not” (Ecclesiastes 7:20)

    Have you ever considered yourself to even be remotely foolish at times? Or are you that perfect? “The thought of foolishness is sin” (Proverbs 24:9).

    I am on the other hand am a sinner SAVED by grace and I SUBMIT to Jesus Christ by the power of the HOLY SPIRIT that abides in me and I TURN from my sin because of the CONVICTION of the Holy Spirit.

    Don’t comment again, it will be deleted. I get your point however ‘foolish‘ it may be.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Michael

    You said it brother, he quotes verse after verse out of context. It’s amazing, I’ve never seen someone like Steve before, and I’ve have a couple of thousand people comment on this blog, but Steve completely negates the workings of the Holy Spirit. It’s like He does not even exist in Steve’s life.

    Oh hold on, how could I forget Elbie lol.

  • Steve

    [delete – It’s true, Steve thinks he is perfect]

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Steve

    WHO HAS ETERNAL SECURITY:

    (1) Those who continue in the word (Jn. 8:31,32).
    (2) Those who follow Christ (Jn. 10:27-28).
    (3) Those who bring forth fruit (Jn. 15:2; Lk. 3:9).
    (4) Those who are led by the Spirit of God (Ro. 8:14-15).
    (5) Those who have been born again (2 Co. 5:17; Ep. 2:10; Ga. 6:15).
    (6) Those who are sanctified from an unrighteous way of life (1 Co. 6:9-11).
    (7) Those who have demonstrated their election (salvation) (1 Th. 1:4-10).
    (8) Those who depart from iniquity (2 Ti. 2:19).
    (9) Those who maintain their confidence in Christ (He. 3:14).
    (10) Those who have an undivided, convinced faith (He. 4:10,11).
    (11) Those who evidence the “things that accompany salvation” (He. 6:9-12).
    (12) Those who are looking for Christ’s return (He. 9:28).
    (13) Those who remain patient and steadfast in tribulations (He. 10:35-39).
    (14) Those who are in the truth and continue in the truth (1 Jn. 2:19-21; 2 Jn. 1-2).
    (15) Those who are purifying themselves (1 Jn. 3:1-3).
    (16) Those who love the brethren (1 Jn. 3:14).

    DOES ETERNAL SECURITY CAUSE PEOPLE TO LIVE CARELESSLY?

    Eternal security does not cause people to live carelessly. The very opposite is true. The Bible teaches that the grace of God actually motivates believers to serve God with a thankful heart (Ro. 2:4; Ep. 3:14-19; Tit. 2:11-14). The more a believer understands the unfathomable love God has for him in Christ, the more he wants to please God.

    DOES ETERNAL SECURITY MEAN ANYONE WHO PROFESSES CHRIST IS SAVED, REGARDLESS OF WHETHER THEY GIVE EVIDENCE OF GENUINE FAITH?

    1. No, salvation demands repentance (Lk. 13:3-5; Ac. 2:38-42; 17:30-31). Repentance means a change of mind resulting in a change of life by the Holy Spirit (2 Co. 7:8-11). The person who has never changed his mind about God, sin, Christ, the Bible, etc., and who has never evidenced this changed mind with a changed life, has never repented and has never been saved. The Thessalonian believers exemplify biblical repentance. They “turned to God from idols, to serve the living and true God” (1 Thess. 1:9-10).

    2. No, salvation requires the new birth, and the new birth always changes a man’s life (2 Co. 5:17-21; Mt. 18:3-4; Jn. 3:1-18; 1 Jn. 3:10; 3 Jn. 11).

    3. No, salvation is evidenced by perseverance (Jn. 10:27-28; Col. 1:21-23; He. 3:12-14; 10:38-39; 1 Jn. 2:19; 3:3). According to these Scriptures, the one who is truly born again will persevere in Christ; or it could be better stated that Christ will persevere in him!

    4. No, saving faith always produces works (Eph. 2:8-10; He. 11:4, 7, 8; Jam. 2:14-26). If one claims to have faith in Christ, but his life does not reflect the works of Christ, that one does not have biblical faith. A fruitless profession of fruit cannot lay claim to God’s promises of eternal security.

  • Lee

    Hi Debs, thanks for the email! Yep, I already downloaded the book last week and skimmed it! Will have to read it properly again!

    Also read the lordship article and would like to say a few things about that, that gets confused by many….

    thanks still!

  • Dave

    So they teach Lordship Salvation at Grace to You, is this bad?

    http://www.gty.org/Resources/Articles/A114

    What do you think about this Deborah?

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Dave

    Well that does not surpise me. They are ELECT after all and not really saved so anything they do is out of their own FLESH.

  • Eli

    I’m pretty sure paul washer explained later that when he once said repentance precedes and follows faith it was a slip up, and he only meant repentance follows faith in Jesus

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Eli

    Your are sure? Nooooooooo you are not, you are making excuses for Paul Washer and trying to keep your fleshly conscience clean so you can carry on following Calvinist false teaching!

  • Michael

    Steve said…Also, Good works are a result of being reborn in the spirit, not a result of Salvation.. which is received at the end.

    Mixing partial truths out of context or the wrong way round is a devastating lie and causes confusion of the worst kind.

    What you are really saying is salvation plus good works = an eternity in the heaven and if so what pass marks do you need in good works…only 100% will do or to you perhaps just short of that if you are so perfect.

    No the bible states that we all fail miserably and mate in the good works department if you think you are that perfect you are completely deluded.

    The Holy Spirit convicts you of sin…when you come to Christ you can only hate sin but because you, me and everyone else is weak and born in sin and a slave to all forms of selfishness delusions (pride and self-righteousness being the chief culprit) there is only One who can save us…thank goodness for that.

    The longer I walk the Christian pilgrimage the more inadequate and imperfect I realise I am compared to the Saviour and the more dependant I become on Him which helps me to become a better person…this requires spiritual honesty.

    When we become to the stage when we think we are so great and sinless…the opposite is true…we are self-deluded and there is no truth in us.

  • Nick

    There are some things that I don’t agree with in this article. I’d appreciate it very much if they’d be published.

    First , David was not a christian. To be a Christian one would have to believe in the finished work of the cross. The word Christian was only used on believers after the gospel was preached to the gentiles after the Holy Spirit was sent. David believed in the one true God.

    Secondly , Peter was not born again when he denied Jesus. To be born again one must believe in the Lord Jesus Christ. And seeing as how Jesus wasn’t resurrected to show that He is Lord of all , how could Peter believe in Him yet ? This is why Jesus said that Peter would deny Him.

    Well that’s all I have for now. Thank you for having the guts to state clearly what you believe.

  • Shane

    My wife(ex) who as far as I know accepted Jesus as her Saviour when she was 3 years old, left me for another man 3 years ago. She kept denying that she was continuing with her adulterous relationship even until a number of months ago. Now she has brought this relationship out into the open. She does a number of other questionably unChristian, nasty things that smack of habitual, intentional sin. When confronted that she is continuing to commit adultery; because according to God’s law of marriage unless the other spouse is dead the other commits adultery Rom 7:1-3; she just gives people a Joseph prince DVD to watch. This is her licence to sin. She sincerely believes she is saved and the righteousness of God in Christ, and that there is now no condemnation for those in Christ. However, she flagrantly goes out and sins, not in the “small stuff” so to speak. According to Lordship Salvation she seems to have lost her salvation and accoring to Jesus-Is-Saviour theology she has probably never truly been saved. I see a problem with both camps. People professing Christ and who live intentionally sinful, couldn’t give a damn about anybody else lives are hindering the acceptance of the gospel in the lives of unsaved people. The unsaved want to see lives of integrity that show tha Jesus actually ha made a difference in a person’s life.

  • Burning Lamp

    Okay, let’s get real. A three year old child does not have the reasoning capability to make a decision for Christ. They may say they love Jesus, etc., but they don’t understand sin and repentance. These are usually casss where the parent has put words into the child’s mouth. Most children at that age don’t even have a clear memory of events. So when they get older, the parent tells them they accepted Jesus when they were 3 and so the child doesn’t make a genuine committment when they reach the age of accountability. What a travesty!!! The case presented here is a perfect example.

  • To all those defenders of the damnable heresy called Lordship Salvation: We defenders of free Grace do not care if you think us all backsliders. We are trusting in Jesus’ Grace which is sufficient for all, yes even the back slider which the Bible says God is married to BTW… We are in right standing with God because we are made righteous by our faith in His dear Son. We truly don’t care what you think of us. We want to try to reach those that are being horribly troubled by this lying false spirit and are tormented with the thought of loosing God’s Salvation because of your false teachings… BTW when one of you super holier than all the rest of us manages to finally walk on water will you let the rest of us lowly believers in Jesus know? Until then, I guess you will have to trust in Jesus for yours, like we trust in Jesus for ours…

  • Phil

    Deborah

    Does this mean you beleive in once saved always saved?

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Phil

    No, I believe you can lose your salvation, but I also believe that a truly born again Christian is sealed by the Holy Spirit and it will take a lot to lose ones salvation. There are millions of nominal Christians however, those who profess to be Christians but are not, they were never saved to begin with, they have a form of Godliness but deny Gods power who make up most of todays apostasy.

    I am not a 1 point Calvinist, because a Calvinist believes they are CHOSEN and if you are chosen you can’t be unchosen (because God Sovereignly put you on the Elect list and won’t wipe you off), which is very different from being saved and then being sealed by the Holy Spirit that He convicts you repent and return to the Lord.

    Having said that, one can grieve the Holy Spirit so much and turn your back on Jesus to such an extent (because we have free will) that you lose your salvation by denouncing Christ.

  • John Chingford

    Hi Debs

    I do not believe it is possible for any true believer who has been truly “born again” (become a child of God) to ever cease to be anything other than a child of God. Therefore they cannot lose their salvation under any circumstances. Nothing they do can separate them from that position in Christ because we receive Christ by grace and we maintain that position by grace not by works ever.

    I maintain that it is impossible for a child to suddenly become “unborn” as if they were never born. They have become “a new creation” as the bible puts it or as at least one version puts it “a new creature”.

    I think this is an excellent link from H A Ironside entitled “Eternal Security of the Believer”

  • Hanelie

    Thank you, John. That is a helpful explanation. I recently heard teaching about the parable of the prodigal son in which it was said that the son’s son-ship was never in question and that we was never lost. It took me a while to fully grasp it. It’s true though, isn’t it. In Afrikaans it is translated as “the lost son”, but he was never lost in either sense of the word: he knew the road back and although he had left the safety of his father’s house, he was still his son and his father was still waiting for him to come back. This is almost more than I can comprehend and it is certainly so much more than any of us deserve. :)

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    John

    You are right, I am wrong. I have been struggling with this (BL knows this) for a number of weeks now… I keep going back and forth. I was in the process of studying all the scriptures out of that link you provided from the actual book (that someone lovingly sent me) and some other scriptures with the Word of God.

    Last night it hit me like a ton of bricks… we are secure because if we are not, we are working for our salvation (as you stated).

    The EVIDENCE of a genuine salvation is staying steadfast till the end.

  • Myfanwy Brown

    Debs and John,

    As John knows, I myself have struggled with the issue of secure salvation. And it has been bothering me for a long time. I have read much scripture and done alot of reading and research on the matter. Satan has long been trying to cause me to fear and to falter, and without going into all the detail, I can finally say I know that I am secure. I can also reflect on my life experiences, and I can see that just as God has promised, He will never leave us or forsake us. Truthfully I have gone through some dangerous times in my life, both spiritual and physical, and some way, somehow, He has lifted me every time. I could give you so many examples of Jesus’s love for me, it overwhelms me. God sees our heart, and He knows the truth about our every situation, even when we fail Him. I love you LORD JESUS!

  • Robbie

    *sigh* yea I was wrong too.. David Stewart convinced me.

    Yip there remains a fine line Debs… it was the works issue that struck me too.

    Faithful, Faithful, Faithful.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Robbie

    Isn’t it just a fine line. I have professor Johan Malan to thank for confusing me because he believes you can lose your salvation. After following his point of view I felt as though I was in permanent bondage. Where does one draw the line as to where you lose your salvation? After 1 sin or many sins? Because 1 sin or many sins is all the same in God’s eyes. So that would mean to stay saved you would have to think you are relatively sinless and quite selfrighteous, or to lose your salvation, you would spend your life fighting a losing battle because you will always sin, thereafter you spend your days constantly seeking Jesus Christ to be re born again. This is not the gospel of Jesus Christ. No where so I read in the bible of people being born again twice, or three times.

    As someone said to me in an email (no names mentioned) “When I finally got the message that I am eternally secure and that it is not a license to sin and it is not presumptious it was a wonderful blessing. Yes, we are chastened, just as a good parent chastens their children. And we will give an account before the Bema. But if one is truly saved, one is secure because we didn’t earn our salvation and we can’t work to maintain it.

  • Myfanwy Brown

    Amen Debs!!! : )

  • Hanelie

    ^^Well said. In bondage is where Satan wants us, isn’t it. I am just working through this issue now as well, so these posts have been very timely. This is such and important message. Thank you, Deborah, John and Myfanwy!

    I think your second paragraph above very subtly points to another important issue: the often-held misconception that God still punishes us when we sin. But, He can not, since Christ was already punished for my sin! I still sometimes struggle with this, slipping back into fear that God will punish me for my mistakes. He corrects us most certainly. In fact, He has used this website to correct some of my thinking (and acting). :)

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Hanelie

    That is so right..

    He will not punish us, but He will through His Holy Spirit correct us, by chastising us when we do sin to ask for forgiveness. But punishment, never.

    Hugs to Hanelie :)

  • James Verner

    Thanks Deborah for helping so many of us find true peace in believing in our Lord Jesus.
    James

  • Sherry B.

    Deborah (Discerning the World) wrote:

    Robbie
    Isn’t it just a fine line. I have professor Johan Malan to thank for confusing me because he believes you can lose your salvation. After following his point of view I felt as though I was in permanent bondage. Where does one draw the line as to where you lose your salvation? After 1 sin or many sins? Because 1 sin or many sins is all the same in God’s eyes. So that would mean to stay saved you would have to think you are relatively sinless and quite selfrighteous, or to lose your salvation, you would spend your life fighting a losing battle because you will always sin, thereafter you spend your days constantly seeking Jesus Christ to be re born again. This is not the gospel of Jesus Christ. No where so I read in the bible of people being born again twice, or three times.
    As someone said to me in an email (no names mentioned) “When I finally got the message that I am eternally secure and that it is not a license to sin and it is not presumptious it was a wonderful blessing. Yes, we are chastened, just as a good parent chastens their children. And we will give an account before the Bema. But if one is truly saved, one is secure because we didn’t earn our salvation and we can’t work to maintain it.“

    Bless you, Deb! When I read the article that Prof Malan wrote refuting Calvinism, I agreed UNTIL he refuted Point 5. Like Dave Hunt (whom I believe has done the very BEST job of refuting the hateful Calvin heresy), I, too am assured of the eternal everlasting salvation of my Savior, Christ Jesus. Like Paul, I consider myself “Chief among sinners”, because His Wonderful Holy Spirit has to convict me of my sins of thoughts and deeds every day of my life.

    I do NOT WANT to sin, and I long for the day to be shed of this sinful flesh nature that constantly offends the holiness of our precious Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. But then I remember from the epistle to the Hebrews that HE is our High Priest and Mediator, that HE is the One Who will present us blameless and without spot or blemish as His Bride. HE is “The Author and Perfecter of our faith”!

    Whew! What a relief to me and other truly “Born Agains” that we can only “work out our salvation” by clinging to utter faith in Jesus Christ and His finished work on that cross, and His Word that HE will see us through to the very end if we only believe and trust in Him. Coincidentally, my husband and I are doing Bible study together on Hebrews, and it talks about “drifting away”, “neglecting so great a salvation”, and having “evil unbelieving hearts”. Truthfully, it scared me, because it all but says that some CAN lose salvation, until my husband reminded me that it’s those who never truly made their commitment to Jesus Christ, who want Christ and this world too, and who’ve probably only nominally “become Christians”(the same as not at all).

    Again, bless you, Deb! Remember:” I know Whom I have believed, and I am certain that He is able to keep that (My soul/salvation) which I’ve committed unto Him against that day.” HE will NEVER fail us- NEVER! Amen!!

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Sherry B

    It’s actually a terrible doctrine this, and unfortunately Prof Johan Malan believes in this and tries to convert people he comes into contact with. He has big issues with Dave Hunt and says he is a one point Calvinist because he believes in Eternal security. The problem is with Johan Malan and not Dave Hunt. Johan Malan does not understand or refuses to grasp is that Calvinists believe they are CHOSEN before birth by God (thereby they can’t lose their salvation or CHOSENESS) the biblical version of eternal security is that when you are truly born again (not a fake Christian) you are sealed by the Holy Spirit and your name is written in the Lambs book of Life and it can’t be blotted out.

    Thanks Sherry!!! :) *hugs*

    Debs

  • Michael

    Well clarified Debs…this is indeed a spiritual debilitating doctrine because it puts the emphasis on man’s ability to claim kudos…a doctrine of works. To make the ridiculous out of it…how many points…99%(impossible we’ve all fail hopelessly)…75% (no one in heaven)…even 50% (I genuinely believe still an impossibility)…maybe 33% some might scrape in. Joyce Meyer thinks she gets 100%…lol…talk about delusion.
    Yes no where in the bible does it even suggest that you can be born-again twice…Jesus told Nicodemus that he had to be born-again (of the spirit) in comparison to natural birth (of the flesh).

    There are definitely those that claim the new birth but are not true Christians. False teachings are responsible for this because the cross, resurrection, the repentance of sins and the choice to accept the redemption is not preached at all in a lot cases, and in some cases watered down and poisoned by combining it in a type of unification of all faiths…universalism and liberalism.

    In the old days…the question asked “is a person saved”…even older “are you converted”.

    To get onto Calvinism…predestination etc…this is a slap in the face of the integrity of God…imagine a “Loving and Fair God” that creates a human-being that has no choice but that of burning in hell for eternity. No wonder it’s impossible for Calvinists to really love God. Imagine fathering 2 children…the one you are planing before birth to give a beautiful inheritance…the other you are going to torture by burning him with fire. To even suggest this is so horrible…Calvinism is wicked…no wonder people fail to turn from the real and true God of the bible.

    The bible clearly states that God so loved the world that He sent His Son to save it…also that He is not willing that any one should perish but all should be saved.
    It has all to do with the freedom of individual choice…that applies to every single person.
    …and there are those that resort to throwing a red-herring into the question because it is their way of choosing not to believe. They raise questions that are not answered in the scriptures…like what about the savage in the middle of the Amazon. God never covered this in the scriptures, this question in the same way, He never gave us…the formula’s in science how He created everything or explained eternity or the beginning of time…we couldn’t understand.Because He is God, He is beyond explanation but we know He gave us love and instructions (the word in scriptures) and that He became Man in Jesus Christ to communicate with us and set us free and give us eternal life by His death of the cross…this is a gift in the same way that choice is a gift. Man can hardly grasp simplicity of the message of salvation (because his heart is devious and evil) let alone the mysteries of creation…he simply justifies reason with evolution because of his limited intelligence (and because he chooses not to believe by prefers darkness to light).

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Lordship Salvation - Putting the Cart Before the Horse

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