Can Jesus Christ The Son of God Trust You?

Deborah (Discerning the World)

Discerning the World is an internet Discernment ministry based in Johannesburg South Africa that was founded by Deborah du Rand in 2008. Tom Lessing joined Deborah in May 2013. Tom Lessing founded the website "Waak en Bid/Watch and Pray" which was closed in 2013 and articles moved across to DTW.

33 Responses

  1. cecilia says:

    this article and it’s question links to the article: http://www.discerningtheworld.com/2009/12/09/are-catholics-christian it has the same “subtle” undertone : the mother church is the Roman Catholic church.

    I have this saying: people ALWAYS go back to their roots, unless they deny it, break away and CHOOSE a new way/path.
    cecilia

  2. Deborah (Discerning the World) says:

    Exactly 🙂

  3. Martin says:

    Subtle Catholic influences creeping in, if not taken over completely.

    On this blog somewhere the question is asked: “are Catholics Christians?” Catholisism is not only part of the harlot mentioned in especially in Revelation, it IS the harlot church. Any other denomination accepting its evil influences or teachings with open arms also make themselves part of this harlotry. At the end of the day the condition succumbs to nothing else than a group of leaven people likened to that of Phariseeism, and what is a Pharisee if not a hypocrite? and what did Jesus Christ himself say about them? He addressed them in stern fashion: (Matt 23:27). It is a matter of understanding the mixture and only then correct discerning whatever might follow. Jacob Prasch from Moriel Ministries has this clearly written sermon on understanding the mixture.

  4. Deborah (Discerning the World) says:

    Martin

    Just a quick note, Jacob Prasch is part of the Hebrew Roots movement where they believe Christians need to study the Midrash in order to understand the NT correctly.

  5. Burning Lamp says:

    Debs, was this one of Barbara Aho or Vicky Dillen’s accusations or it is for real about Jacob? He has denied teaching this I believe.

  6. Deborah (Discerning the World) says:

    BL

    Nah this is for real! I saw it slap on his web site at the beginning of this year and thats when I went to find out what the Midrash was. Also go and search his site, and go to the prayer request section. Look at the picture.

  7. Martin says:

    Yes, thanks for alerting me on this. Altough I find it interesting, on closer inspection it is clearly seen that there are Talmudic overtones which actually promote Jewish traditions. I’ve always wondered why one should study Hebrew or Greek for a better understanding of the Bible. I was also somewhat surprised that Jacob Prasch sometimes refers to books like the Maccabees and expounding something on it which kind of adds unnecessary teachings to the Bible (which is complete already). So thanks a lot Deborah, note taken

  8. LBW says:

    Martin, BL and Debs
    We have found the teaching of Jacob Prasch to be profoundly relevant to what is going on in the church today. The teaching from Moriel Ministries has enabled us to see how the church is the continuation of a believing remnant of Israel rather than the replacement of her. This is not the same as the movement called ‘Hebrew Roots’. The emphasis is rather on THE ROOT (Rev 5:5 & 22:16) where the revelation began from Genesis.
    Particularly important over the last ten years has been the anointing from the Holy One (1John 2:20) as a result of understanding what it means to be grafted into the cultivated olive tree. (Rom 11) When we read about 2 0r 3 and there Jesus is we did not think it would ever happen to us. Now three of us meet together and He has kept His promise.
    I think Jacob’s first visit to SA was about ’94/95. The subject he shared was ‘The rite of ordeal and the law of jealousy’ (Eph 5 and Numbers 5). That brother was really, really on the mark.
    His teaching is not for the fainthearted as he is an evangelist to the Jews. When people he led to the Messiah had nowhere to go to find The Truth he had to feed them.(discipleship).
    Is the picture you’re referring to a prayer shawl Debs?
    We have seen previous comments about this brother in Christ and decided not to comment unless the subject came up again

  9. LBW says:

    For those who are from other lands pse know that in SA there has been no national church for 16 years. Confusion, fear and more have happened. Unlike many countries the previous ‘reformed government’put up church buildings and funded évangelization’ using military/government means. None of this had anything to do with what Jesus describes as ‘My kingdom’.
    The God of Abraham Isaac and Jacob has given us a second chance.
    In view of what has been shared here pse consider –
    google direct – WHAT THE REFORMERS FORGOT

  10. Deborah (Discerning the World) says:

    Martin

    Thats it. The Bible and only the Bible, nothing else. By saying you need to study the Midrash to understand the NT actually does away with the Holy Spirit. Yip, it’s that serious.

  11. Deborah (Discerning the World) says:

    LBW

    Yeah, the Jewish prayer shawl. Why a Jewish prayer shawl I ask? Is Jacob Prasch not born again? Why the need for these things that are used in a ‘heathen’ faith, because until such time that a Jew accepted Jesus as their saviour they are a heathen.

    Please, don’t see what I am saying as anything against you guys, I am just trying to desperately understand this.

    I used to read everything from Jacob Prasch until I started to see all these weird ‘unnecessary’ things on his website.

    “Something went wrong in the early Church; it got away from its Jewish roots. And as more Gentiles became Christians, something that Paul (in Romans 11) warned should not happen, happened. People lost sight of the root.”

    What a load of nonsense! When you are born again you become A NEW person in Jesus Christ. You do not become a Jewish Christian. Romans 11 does not say this. It says we are to remember Israel. Not try be them. We become spiritual children of Abraham; there is NO need what so ever to go back to anything Jewish, including the Midrash.

    Millions of Christians have done well to NEVER read the Midrash because they have relied on the Holy Spirit as their GUIDE. I understand the Bible perfectly with the help of the Holy Spirit and HIM ONLY.

  12. Burning Lamp says:

    Oh boy Debs this is sad about JP. But methinks this is what happens when one has one’s foot in the Messianic mess as I have come to view it.

    Yes, I do believe it is helpful to study the OT to see how Jesus is the fulfillment of the feasts and the Law, but it has gone too far. I see no value in having separate Messianic fellowships to accommodate Jewish converts and make them more “at home” in the Christian faith. It seems to contradict being a new creation. It doesn’t mean that one disrespects or devalues the traditions of the Jewish faith. Jesus followed them, but he went against the Pharissee and came to establish a greater law, the law of love and grace.

    During Passover, it is the practice of some churches to hold symbolic seder feasts, and if those are simply to show how Jesus was foretold in it and how He fulfilled it, I am okay with that. I have seen the shawl worn to show the significance of it in the process. But it is a fine line and too many become enamored with traditions instead of moving forward into the new life in Christ.

    I am sorry to see Jacob fall into this trap. He has stood for much truth and endtime info. I recently saw that he was appearing with Missler and others I didn’t know, in a seminar and they were charging a fee to attend. This does not bode well. Seems another one has bit the dust. Very sad indeed.

  13. Deborah (Discerning the World) says:

    BL

    Too true, too true! He might have been ok, but something has gone wrong.

  14. DAWIE says:

    Debs et al
    With the greatest respect,in your reply to LBW it appears that you are playing the man instead of the ball!
    Your opinion about Jacob Prasch wearing a prayer shawl is what is irrelevant, just as a preacher or teacher wearing shorts and takkies is irrelevant. Neither has anything to do with their new life in Christ Jesus, except that Jacob, being half Jewish,sometimes wears this shawl when he is with Jewish people, just as Paul did. Paul called it being, “all things to all men”.
    Please read Romans 9-11 again, especially 11:13 to the end.
    We Gentiles have been grafted into the the olive tree that God planted. It is Jewish. The Bible is Jewish. Our Savior -the root of this olive tree- is the Messiah of the Jews. Salvation is of the Jews.
    Yes, each and every born again believer is a new creature – but only in Christ Jesus our Jewish Savior.
    You are right in saying that we don’t need to become culturally Jewish because we are in Christ, but to ignore – or worse to deny – our blessednes because God cut off natural branches so that we could be grafted in, is a dangerous presumption.
    I continue to thank God for Jacob Prasch. I do not agree with all that he teaches, but I do appreciate the vitally important truths I have learnt from Jesus through him; not least that we have to understand the entire Bible through the teaching of the Apostles who Christ appointed.
    If Augustine and Calvin [and his successors] had done just that, the body of Christ would never have been burdened and led astray by the hideously heretical doctrine of double pre-destination and the rest of the TULIP nonsense which is still propogated today.
    When we go to Jesus our life with the desire to read and understand the Scriptures from the Biblical [Jewish] Apostolic perspective, the Holy Spirit will lead us into all of the truth and we are set free. Then we certainly know who are the “chosen”,”the elect”, those who “He foreknew” and “predestined” really were and all those calvinist man- invented problems melt and evaporate for ever.
    “Oh the depth of the riches of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable His judgements and His ways past finding out!”

  15. Deborah (Discerning the World) says:

    Dawie

    Oh boy. The man is not wearing a prayer shawl, there is picture of one.

    If you read the comments again you will CLEARLY see that the MIDRASH is of debate, the prayer shawl was a just a thing I mentioned (a secondary issue if you will). IT’S STUDYING THE MIDRASH THAT I HAVE A HUGE ISSUE WITH.

    No one here is denying anything regarding Israel, or anyone being grafted into the the olive tree, so don’t even attempt to pull that one on me!

    The Bible is the FINAL AUTHORITY on everything. Do you agree or not? Therefore having to study the Midrash is of no importance.

    Listen, you can follow JP until the cows come home, I don’t care. I don’t follow men, for it’s Jesus Christ who I follow only. Men mean nothing to me. nothing. I speak the truth to those who want to hear the truth, other than that there is not more I can do.

  16. Burning Lamp says:

    Wasn’t the issue of “Jewishness” a problem in the early church? Didn’t Paul object to Peter’s attempt to separate the brethren – Jews and Gentiles? From the beginning we were one in Christ.

    For purposes of evangelism, it is practical to approach Jewish people with Jewish terms, but anything beyond that fractures the Body.

    One’s ethic or religious background is no longer an issue when one becomes a part of the Body of Christ. There is one Spirit, One Lord and One Baptism. The Bible makes it abundantly clear it seems to me.

  17. Deborah (Discerning the World) says:

    BL

    Absolutely correct.

  18. DAWIE says:

    Hi Debs,

    Every time you read Mat. 2:14, 15, 17. 25:1 -13; John 1: 1-11;46-51; 1Cor.10:1-11; Gal.4:22-30, you are reading Midrash. These are but a few examples of many. You don’t have to study Midrash to be saved, but it is the method employed by Jesus and His Apostles when they taught and the method the Jews of that time understood. Midrash basically means “a look into” or “an ivestigation”[See Strong H4097]. Midrash is never doctrine. It illuminates doctrine. For example, BL refers to the Passover Seder [above]. By studying the passages of Scripture which refer to this we can see a pattern which illuminates the doctrine of the Atonement [using Midrashic methods], but we can’t make a doctrine out of this. Our doctrine comes from the clear teaching of the Apostles.
    The Reformers and those that follow them use the historical/grammatical method of exegesis and stop there. What a tragedy!

    My response to your claim that the Bible is the FINAL AUTHORITY may just shock some readers!
    Firstly this is not a Biblical statement! The risen Lord has ALL AUTHORITY in heaven and on earth. HE IS THE WORD OF GOD [John 1:1,14; Rev.19:13]. In the OT He is described as “The Word of the Lord” [debar or imra].
    Secondly, neither Jesus or Paul said the Bible [referring,of course,to the Tanach] was “the Word of God” or “God’s final Authority”. In fact they both used the term “the Scriptures”. Jesus chided the leading Jews about their failure to recognise the purpose of Scripture in John 6: 37-40. The Scriptures of the Bible testify of Jesus and,instead of seeking eternal life in the written words of Scripture, they needed to come to Him,”THE WORD OF GOD” for eternal life.
    Paul said, “all Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.”
    I agree that the original texts of both Testaments in their original languages are without error and contain truth and are authoritative. However,the FULL TRUTH IS IN JESUS who is the Truth.
    No Debs, the Bible tells us that CHRIST JESUS IS OUR FINAL AUTHORITY.[Mt. 28: 18]

  19. Deborah (Discerning the World) says:

    Dawie

    Wowwie, okie dokie then. Well that comment says a whole lot.

  20. Burning Lamp says:

    Dawie, seems that this is a matter of semantics. Jesus Christ and His Word the Bible are one and in full agreement. There is no extrabiblical revelation. BTW, are you “Jesus only”? Just curious because it sounds like something someone of that belief might say.

    Jesus quoted much Scripture – Scripture IS God’s written word – it is to be our guide in belief and practice.

    When we say the Bible is our final authority we mean that no statements by man are to be accepted unless they are confirmed by the Word.
    Let’s not complicate what God intended to be simple.

    The Gospel that saves is the Word of God. The power of the Holy Spirit is in the Word of God.

    For the word of God is living and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the division of soul and spirit, and of joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. Hebrews 3:12

  21. Deborah (Discerning the World) says:

    Jesus is the Word, Jesus is the final Authority, the Word therefore is the final Authority.

    Simple.

    But if the Bible for you does not have the final say then what do else do you read and where do you draw the line?

  22. DAWIE says:

    BL
    First answer is no I am not “Jesus only”! Jesus retains all authority in heaven and on earth until till He has put all enemies under His feet. Then He returns the Kingdom to the Father. 1 Cor.15:21- 28 explains this. Also see Ephesians 1:22,23 regarding the authority of Christ to the church.

    Our Lord Jesus quoted Scripture and He called it Scripture, not THE word of God. He quoted from the Septuagint as well as the Masoretic text. He also quoted from the Deuterocanon which is no longer part of our Bibles. Many of Jesus’ quotes – and those of Paul, James, Peter, John and the writer to the Hebrews – are not word for word from our present versions of the Bible even in the original Greek texts. You can easily check this out for yourself.
    We read and study the Bible and indeed Jesus teaches and feeds us all of the truth. We all have an anointing from the Holy One [1 John 2:20; Is.54:5] and “you do not need anyone to teach you”, [1 John 2:27]. How else are we to find out which, if any, of the conflicting teachings of different “teachers”on the same Scriptures? Jesus promised His disciples that the the Spirit of truth “– will glorify Me, for He will take of what is mine and declare [it] to you.” [John 16:14]

    The idea that the the power of the Holy Spirit is in the [written] Scriptures themselves is not Biblical and sounds like a TBN catchphrase! Again, as mentioned in an earlier post, Jesus said, “You search the Scriptures, for in them you think you have eternal life: and these are they that testify of Me. But you refuse to come to Me that you may have life. –” Without His Spirit in us to teach us, the Scriptures have no power of their own.[2 Cor.3:3]

    Finally, you quoted Hebrews 4:12 as if the “Word of God” was the Scripture. If you read the very next verse, you will see that this is the Person “He”. This is yet another Scripture that tells us that the Messiah and the Word of God are one and the same Person.

    I hope you receive this in the grace of God that is intended. We are to be free in Christ Jesus. The Scriptures are vitally important to all of us, but without the personal teaching of the anointing of the Holy One, we risk following mere men or a certain church denomination or system, being tosses to and fro, instead of the Person Messiah Yeshua who has given us life, who keeps us in His life and who is the Word of God, His final authority.
    Best wishes in His love.

  23. LBW says:

    Hi Debs

    Romans 11 – you mentioned ‘denying Israel, being grafted into
    the olive tree’. [EDITED: If you care to quote the whole sentence it says; “No one here is denying anything regarding Israel, [ADDED: or anyone] being grafted into the the olive tree, so don’t even attempt to pull that one on me!”]
    Are you saying that it is Israel being grafted in ?
    Don’t want to misunderstand what you mean. Thanks

  24. Deborah (Discerning the World) says:

    LBW

    Yes you are misunderstanding me. I went and fixed sentence. Never the less, I was quoting DAWIE, who oddly enough just happens to have the same IP and similar email as you. Same IP usually means one thing?

    Are you in agreement with DAWIE because you might be the same person?

  25. Deborah (Discerning the World) says:

    DAWIE

    I wonder where anyone said the power of the Holy Spirit was in the written scriptures themselves. This is not so, and I have not said this. But JESUS IS THE WORD and that is the end of the story.

    You can come up with all sorts of funny ideas to try and tell us why the study of the Midrash is a must have for every Christian, and I will tell you that you have been fooled.

    Jesus and the Prophets and the Apostles and disciples quoted from many different places, but God instructed the Bible to be written as ONE BOOK that we can read where we will find EVERYTHING we NEED TO KNOW and that’s that. If you want to ADD TO His Words then you gonna end up with problems.

  26. DAWIE says:

    Debs,
    Hi again. My last post was mostly a response to BL who wrote, “The power of the Holy Spirit is in the Word of God.”
    This is a true statement if BL was referring to Jesus the Word of God, but from the context it seems that BL was referring to the Bible. I hope I got this wrong.

    I also wrote,
    “You don’t have to study Midrash to be saved, but it is the method employed by Jesus and His Apostles when they taught and the method the Jews of that time understood.”
    If you have a problem with Midrash, then your your problem is with the teaching of Jesus and His Apostles, not with me.

    I would never contemplate going beyond what is written.

    I’m obviously touching some nerve, so I’ll cool it for a while in the hope that you will make time to read what I wrote and do a Berean on it!

    In His love.

    [I am not LBW!!!]

  27. Burning Lamp says:

    All I know is the the men who penned the Bible did so by the inspiration of the Holy Spirit.
    Now we all know the the Trinity consists of Father, Son and Holy Spirit. They work like hand and glove – they are 3 in 1.

    Also, I have seen the Gospel as given in the Word of God change people from darkness to light when they respond to the Holy Spirit inspired word.

    Are we simply spitting hairs here and really we are all on the same page?

  28. Deborah (Discerning the World) says:

    BL

    You see an unbeliever can read the word of God and it will mean nothing to him, he will twist it and never understand it completely, Rick Warren for example.
    For the believer the Word of God comes alive because of the Holy Spirit. Jesus is the Word of God for the believer.

    But you understand that don’t you? 😉 It’s Dawie who for some unknown reason brought this up and tried to make it seem like you didn’t know what you were speaking about while trying to refute his notion that the Bible is not the Final Authority on all things.

  29. Deborah (Discerning the World) says:

    DAWIE / LBW

    Oh my word, I don’t believe this. How is it possible that you can use LBW’s EMAIL ADDRESS for your LAST COMMENT and not be LBW? LBW commented last, and in your haste to comment again, this time as DAWIE you typed DAWIE as the username and forgot to change your email address. Now your little avatar pictures are identical which proves you used the same email.

    You know. I dunno why people must lie. Really. It’s things like this that actually sadden me. Maybe you need to seriously RETHINK why you think the Bible is not the Final Authority on ALL THINGS and then go look for scripture in the Bible, (not the Midrash or any other book) about lying and pray about it. Then come back and say you are sorry and we can start again. You speak about not following men, yet you are following the teachings in Jacob Prasch who introduced this idea – no where else in history does anyone (who teaches orthodox Christian teaching) teach this vile teaching that the Bible is NOT the Final Authority.

  30. Burning Lamp says:

    Debs – I agree that Dawie/LBW (stands for “let’s be wicked” ? ) is a bit mixed up.

    What I meant about unbelievers and the Word is that when the Gospel using the Word of God is delivered by a messenger of the Lord and the Holy Spirit is convicting the unbeliever, it will cut to the quick. I have seen it happen in evangelism over and over. It is not the power or convincing words of the messenger, but the Holy Spirit inspired words of God that are the power unto salvation. That is all I meant. Then when the person comes to Christ and has the Holy Spirit, then he/she can have an understanding of the Word and be taught by the Holy Spirit.

    Also, don’t you think if a person is truly seeking to know God and picks up a tract or a Gideon Bible that the Lord can convict their heart and they could acknowledge the Him? They don’t have full knowledge, but they have the all important start.

    Now where this can take a wrong turn is when the WofF people say that speaking the Word or giving some formula will bring results.

  31. Deborah (Discerning the World) says:

    BL

    Agree with you completely.

    LBW could be cricket terms for Leg Before Wicket, but I Caught them out instead.

  32. DAWIE says:

    Debs and BL,

    I apologise for causing some confusion. Please forgive me.

    Let me explain. LBW and I share the same house and the same computer. That’s because we have been married for 42 years. I accidentally used the wrong email address for my last post. [We don’t worry about switching users or personal passwords etc. because we trust each other and have nothing to hide from each other.]

    Neither of us have lied to you.

    I also think you both have missed the differing points we were independently led to raise.

    I will again try to explain the main point of my posts because I believe it to be vitally important to all who are in Christ.

    Contrary to what you may think, I have no a problem with the Bible now that I know what it is. I’ve been reading and studying the Bible and have guided and taught by God’s Holy Spirit for the 27 years since Jesus saved me.
    Many questions have arisen [externally and internally] abou the Bible over this period; not least the ones involving different translations and different interpretations of the same Bible texts. I was often grieved to hear one prominent teacher saying, “God’s Word says —” and then to hear, or read, another saying, “God’s Word says —” only to find that they had two very different interpretations. “If God’s Word is Truth, then how can this be”,I asked myself and, more importantly, I asked Jesus.
    After many years my Lord taught me and got me to the place where I could read the original Greek texts of the NT. This helped immensely and and brought great joy. However,I then found that there were not just a few, but hundreds of authentic Greek texts which differed [I understand that the Hebrew texts present similar problems]. Many texts include passages and words which are not in others. Many have minor differences in basic words,in verb forms, prepositions, etc. which can give a word, a sentence, a verse and even a passage quite different meanings. I soon learned that the underlying texts of our English [or any other language] Bibles are translations of groupings of Greek [and Hebrew] texts assembled [e.g Majority Text,Critical Text], studied and selected by thousands of eminent linguists who have been working on this invaluable enterprise for centuries. Their incredible scholarly work continues.

    I won’t bore you with details, but the fact is there is no consensus on which is the true original Greek or Hebrew text [if it is still in existence] of even one book of the Bible, and considerable differences in opinion as to how many of the ancient words and sentences should be best translated into a modern language.
    To solve this dilema, the Holy Spirit shows us from these sname imperfect copies and translations of the Scriptures that Jesus is God’s final and perfect Word, when He became flesh and dwelt among us. The Word was also first – there with God in the beginning. In fact the the Word was God. As I began to see the Word from the beginning in the OT Scriptures as well as the NT, the problem with the Bible being claimed as “the [Perfect] Word of God” was solved. I praise the Lord for His patience with us and for the incredible grace of God to all who are in Christ Jesus.

    I hope you may now better understand where I’m coming from. The trip I summarised above was long, and sometimes hard, but eternally valuable.I would recommend it to anyone who wants to know Him who is from the beginning!

    May God bless you both.

  33. Deborah (Discerning the World) says:

    Dawie / LBW

    Ahh ok, apology accepted.

    I understand what you are saying. But this comment is now contradictory to your first comment where you say the Bible is not perfect or final. Am I missing something here? Sorry if I am dragging this out, but I just want to be clear here.