Visitors from around the World

Translate blog:

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Announcements

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

facebook: Discerning the World

Sign up to Receive Email Updates


powered by MailChimp!

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Recent Comments

General Comments Section:

Click here for the General Comments Section Discerning the World - General Conversation Section

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Article Archive

Click here to find a List of all Articles List of all Articles
Click here to find a List of all Categories to search by Categories / Keywords

Website Stats

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

How far is too far in the Emerging Church

How far is too far in the Emerging Church

Emerging Black Hole - Emerging ChurchHow far is too far in the Emerging Church

How far is too far?   The Emerging Church seeks to change everything but on what grounds?

Because the Bible is out of date?

Because we are in a time where people supposedly think differently than before hence we need new rules?

Because it’s too difficult to understand?

Because there are things that God commands you not do and you don’t like that because that means changing your worldly ways or?

It is because you/they really don’t like Jesus Christ the Son of God and therefore secretly have to change the Bible hoping no one will notice?

Is it because this is one big science experiment to see how far they can push the boundaries of God’s Word to see if man is capable of coming up with their own rules hence replacing God.

But let’s say that Brian McLaren got his way and everything changed.    Everything has now changed, what is left, what exactly are we left with?

By what standards are we left to know what is right from wrong, good from evil.  There are no more Godly Christians standards, we only have man made standards…

So:

What is the new definition of a GOOD person?

and while we are at it…

What is the new definition of a BAD person?

and where does all of this leave  Sin and repentance of sin?

Some verses regarding God’s Word taken from God’s Word:

Trying to change God’s Word:

Proverbs 30:5-6

Every word of God is pure; he is a shield to those who put their trust in Him. Do not add to His words, lest He rebuke you, and you be found a liar.

Revelation 22:18-19

For I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If anyone adds to these things, God will add to him the plagues that are written in this book; and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part from the Book of Life, from the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

Sin is Good, Darkness the NEW light:

Isaiah 5:20

20  Woe to those who call evil good, and good evil; Who substitute darkness for light and light for darkness; Who substitute bitter for sweet and sweet for bitter!

Job 17:12

12 “They make night into day, saying, ‘The light is near,’ in the presence of darkness.

Luke 11:35

35 “Then watch out that the light in you is not darkness.

More...

74 comments to How far is too far in the Emerging Church

  • Eddy Carter-Smith

    I grew up in the “penticostal””church”been saved every friday nigt at youth,and many more times at Bible study sunday school morning and sunday night services.I can’t begin to tell you my my entire testimony.Save to say Some years back,i found my heart and mind severly challenged to seek truth.This lead me to discover personal sincere prayer,this led to conviction of sin for which i repented – through this i was delivered from Monkey tabacco an also plain old baccy.- this led me to leaving the halls of “churchianity” and opression to discover The Lords bible based and backed spirit -This brought revelation of the corruption in what is portyrayed on TV and in denominations.I continue to repent to be saved.

  • Discerning the World

    Eddie

    Now that is a testimony. Amazing what genuine prayer and REPENTANCE OF SIN through Jesus Christ can do :) YAY!!

  • Eddy Carter-Smith

    now i am concidered a “backslider” and am often told you have to fellowship somwhere and fall under “authority”-Since i don’t tithe -i have enough-since i lay my hands on my children – they are healed-it has taken some years to unlearn all the mind altering stuff-But Stumbling on your blog has been a blessing-i feel and think likewise now.It is a lone road to travel -but a sure one.We will be few and persecuted,this is right.Remember Daniel,Shadrack.Meshak.and Abednigo.Chow

  • Discerning the World

    Eddy

    I know exactly what you mean. It is a long and lonely road, but I smile all the way knowing who Jesus Christ is in my life and He walks with me always and you and everyone other genuinely saved christian.

    Unlearning all this mind altering stuff has been the task of every single born again Christian out there. When you take a step back out of the darkness into the light and you see for the first time with the guidance of the Holy Spirit what we are REALLY being taught – is it only frightening.

    All those sweet words, those psychological build you up sermons, how they removed the power from Jesus over the last 200 years and gave it to the congregation who wanted their own power to be ‘gods’. All they kept in the equation was the name of Jesus, the rest has NOTHING to do with Him.

    I am amazed every day at the things I hear on tv and read – how it’s so bad out there but everyone thinks it’s so good. Everyone is blind.

    GREAT NEWS IS THAT: Jesus promised He would look after His children, and He will.

  • cecilia

    Yes on that! Eddy, one of your biggest def fences is sincerity in discerning. and real deep caring for the people (of all creeds and nations) around you. I am mostly involved with the lives of Indiër people, saved and unsaved. This power-business has invaded even their churches, and man, do they suffer! Because Hindu’s are very much into the “show”, the extra ordinary, stuff, they fall hook line and sinker for these power/miracle displays! Bringing them all back to the Bible, is the only and best way to take their focus off man and shift their attention to God, His Word, His will, His care (well, everything about Him). point is, if we could know Him and do all the miracles etc. ourselves, would we still regard Him as God? or would we put Him on a shelve as the one who started it all, couldn’t handle it, and now us humans, must finish the job? My husband said last night, even when and if the world is in turmoil, God is in control. Stand strong Eddie, live, sleep, walk, talk the Word. It’s all in the Word of God. All the strong men in the Bible were alone. Jesus also. that’s why they are trying so fervently to ‘proof’ that He was married, etc. etc. Ask God and He will bring over your path someone who’ll walk alongside you (and your family), to encourage you, be there to talk to, etc. don’t let the churches play the blame-game on you. establish your facts on the word of God and “no weapon formed against you, shall prosper”. and Eddie, you are NOT a backslider! as a matter of fact, if I could have, I would have took the rope around your avatar’s head and changed it into a crown. Keep Standing! cecilia

  • Discerning the World

    C

    >> and real deep caring for the people (of all creeds and nations) around you. I am mostly involved with the lives of Indiër people, saved and unsaved. This power-business has invaded even their churches, and man, do they suffer! Because Hindu’s are very much into the “show”, the extra ordinary, stuff, they fall hook line and sinker for these power/miracle displays! Bringing them all back to the Bible, is the only and best way to take their focus off man and shift their attention to God,

    Bringing them back to repentance is where you start, by showing them that this is what the Bible commands. Without repentance of being caught up in this stuff and wanting to seek the truth, just ‘bringing’ them back to the Bible will make no real difference. It might seem like they have removed themselves but do they then go in the other direction of taking on more of the law. It’s like a scale, they either over the top and fall prey to false signs and wonders produced by evil spirits or they then tip completely over to the other side and become more law orientated and again deceived by bondage.

    Repentance is what changes a person. Repentance is what shifts our focus back to God. And we only want to repent when we have the Holy Spirit in our lives. When you get saved you repent and are saved by faith in Jesus Christ that he died for us. Repentace thereafter does not stop, if one does want to repent because they think they did it once and now they are permanently saved and can carry on their ways (with a few minor adjustments like attending church and listening to Hillsong) then they have a serious problem and their so called salvation needs to be questioned – not by others but by YOURSELF.

    The entire point of having the Holy Spirit come to abide in you is to CONVICT one of sin and repent. If people can’t see anything wrong in their life, what they believe and how they go against the word of God then they are NOT saved. For if they were, they would not be doing this. They would be seriously TROUBLED in their hearts and they would HEAR the Holy Spirit warning them to CHANGE.

    If there is no willingness to change ones life and there is no double conscience in ones life that what you think is right is wrong because GOD CLEARLY SAYS SO IN HIS WORD then you have to question yourself. (I call it a double conscience because it’s you love for Jesus Christ and YOUR conscience and then the Holy Spirit chastising you who speaks loud and clear)

    When one is truly saved you know it! God knows our hearts. He knows if you prefer darkness and evil and a fake smile over Him. He knows. And you know too…and as much as they will deny it and argue – they can’t get away from a guilty conscience. So at the end of the day eveyone has one of 2 choices:

    REPENT and love the Lord thy God with all your heart, or don’t and stop lying to everyone. This is the difference between a REAL born again Christian and a FAKE one. The FAKE one is the cause of all the problems the church faces because they happily accept any teaching that comes their way and have no Holy Spirit conscience. They can’t see anything wrong with what they are doing and because they speak about ‘love’ this should (as far as they are concerned) make up for their disobedience.

    Well it doesn’t. Only genuine repenting for ones disobedience will change the way God views you. And yes God loves everyone, that is why He sent His ONLY Son to die for us that we can be saved. But He is also a God of WRATH for ALL those who refuse to CHANGE their ways. Changing your ways means you repent of your sin and make a concerted effort with the guidance of the Holy Spirit (that gentle voice that says, ‘no, that is wrong, stop it!’) to stop sinning. And when you do sin, you feel terrible and you say sorry to God through Jesus Christ the Son of God.

    Repentance never stops. The more you repent the more you want to repent because repenting of your sin shows God that you are truly subserviant to Him. Repenting of sin shows genuine LOVE. The more you repent the stronger your relationship with Jesus, the more you repent the more God speaks to you through His Holy Spirit. The more He speaks to you, the more you want to LOVE HIM by repenting.

    The gospel of Jesus Christ is so easy to understand. It’s so simple and so genuine and so full of love and so full of peace and joy and happiness. I fear God for He is my Father and I WILL obey Him. At the same time I LOVE HIM with all my heart and I know HE LOVES ME. I am still a sinner but I am saved by faith in Jesus Christ and his sacrifice for me.

    I warn because I LOVE with a Christ-like love, a Holy Spirit inspired love. I love not with a pretentious, false, pat you on the back, hug you because I must SHOW my love otherwise people will think I don’t love. This is not the love I want to know. This is a love that is man made, there is nothing genuine about man-made ‘ohhh look how much I love, and speak about us all loving one another, love’. It’s false, it’s fake, it’s a downright lie. I do not like fake people who cause nothing but hurt. And by saying that I do not like someone who is fake does not mean I do not love them – love them enough to speak to them about Jesus that they know what GENUINE love is.

    There will never be genuine love between a real born again Christian and the ‘new age’ Christian. For a born again Christian’s love is Holy Spirit inspired and will not LIE, and hide the truth. A new age Christian will act like they love you, but deep down they don’t. They are the ones that speak nice words and want to be accepted by all, loved by all and will give up everything including Jesus Christ and His Gospel to be accepted by mankind instead.

    Truth and Lies will ALWAYS be at odds with one another. And as much as you try UNITE the two it will NEVER happen – it might seem like it’s happening but it’s not – it’s all fake, the whole world is faking it – but we all know fake love does not last and sooner rather than later you will turn on eachother. The born again Christian will however still be standing strong and because they LOVED with genuine Christ-like love from the beginning they will stand out amongst the thorns and people will see the truth and SEPERATE themselves from the liars and turn to Jesus Christ who LOVED the world so much what He died for you and not the fake Christ who hates the world so much that he will lie to you just so that he can destory you in the end. That is what fake love does; it destroys. No good can come from a fake smile.

    Gosh this should be an article… lol. I will post it later this evening.

  • cecilia

    mmmm, agreed! and yes, I didn’t want to put in a loooong comment, but yes, many of these people I’m talking about, even the ones that say they are christians, do not know about repentance. they are quite shocked every time I just immediately post the question – did you ask God’s forgiveness? did you acknowledge what you did/said? repentance is not preached as major (main?) message anymore! people rather let their congregation experience “the super-natural”, afraid they might not “draw” people, or “keep” people! a man made structure, this church(es) in our days! sad, very sad… and then when you differ, they say they will pray 4 u! thanks 4 ur answer DTW! appreciated! c

  • Hi Cecilia, out of interest – do you go to a local church of any sort?

    I ask simply out of curiosity. My church preaches repentance and I believe a lifestyle of repentance is good and right and Christian (and live one as best as I can) – just your last statement about the church(es) made me wonder if you do go to a local church as it sounds as if you’re quite anti church (I could be wrong).

  • AdMo

    Ryan Peter, last time I checked we told we not to come back here as you are happy to associated with the Discernamentalist Mafia website crowd, you are anti-Christian.

  • Amanda

    Ryan Peter

    My church preaches repentance and I believe a lifestyle of repentance is good and right and Christian (and live one as best as I can

    So does Rick Warren.

    I listened to your sermon. I cannot recall the details, so feel free to contradict me.

    You preached human effort. Is that right?

    A good Christian sermon gives the Law full blast in order to kill you. Law is everything we must do and must not do. We break God’s Law hour by hour with the things that we do and the things we do not do. Word, thought and deed. Nobody should be able to listen to a good sermon and feel that he is doing okay or with a little more work here and there, he’ll make it. The only response to good Law preaching is “Lord, be merciful to me, a sinner”. That is it.

    Then you preach the Good News! Preach it! Do not preach the Christian. Preach the Christ! It is the only message that has the power to bring life to dead sinners. Christians need to hear it in every sermon. If you do not preach Christ and Him crucified, then it is not a Christian sermon. Drop the human wisdom and psycology. Preach Jesus Christ and repentance and the forgiveness of sins in His Name.

  • @Admo

    Not sure if you’ve got me confused with someone else, but no one ever asked me not to come back here. I haven’t been here in a while though.

    I’ve never associated myself with the Discernmentalist Mafia crowd, save a few comments on the website.

  • AdMo

    Ryan Peter. But you did know the fake discerningtheworld3 website and it’s creator(s) Chad Holtz and commented there minutes within it going online and Discernamentalist Mafia. And yes it’s been a while since you have been here. Please keep it that way. You were told to leave for this exact reason, ganging up on DTW and siding with anti-Christian people who insult Jesus Christ.

  • Hi Admo,

    Yes, I knew about the DTW3 website. Yes, I commented on there and allowed comments from that site on my blog. No, I didn’t know that Chad was responsible for the site.

    Secondly, I apologised publically to DTW here on this blog when it was at WordPress for allowing the comments from DTW3 on my site and subsequently deleted them.

    DTW seemed to have accepted my apology, but asked me to see if I could remove my comments at the DTW3 site. Since I never knew who was actually responsible for that site I was never able to do so.

    I was quite sure DTW had forgiven me for my blunder, and I was genuinely sorry for having hurt her over the issue (I said so in my apology). I was never asked to leave, but haven’t been here for a long time since I couldn’t access the site since it was moved over until recently. It may have been because I use Linux. Perhaps during that time I missed something, but I genuinely thought DTW had accepted my apology and forgiven me over the issue.

  • AdMo

    Ryan, apology accepted. Apologies for being harsh. Please continue.

    This however is not a get out of “comment moderation free” card. It was as clear as daylight from the very beginning as to what they are and as clear as mud to those who emailed us by the dozen a day asking how anyone can fall for these people’s blasphemy. Not many people like to comment, but we found out from that little extravaganza that many are reading this blog and they do like to email and many are happy to give information, even ones who told you how emerging your friendship was to them and “pat your back”.

    Well we don’t do back patting. A spade is a spade here at Discerning the World and Deborah would have it no other way. If one can’t handle the truth of the gospel of Jesus Christ then one needs to move on and find a place where they can get their ears tickled.

    That is all for now. Deborah says : You may chat away for now… Roger on the other hand has cooked his goose.

  • Thanks Admo and Deborah.

    @ Cecilia,

    Above I was asking if you were ‘anti-church’ as your post really sounded as if you were. I only ask in light of scriptures like Hebrews 10:25 and others, which encourage us that we should go to a local church.

    You may not be anti-church, though, but just interested in hearing your take.

    Thx!

  • Amanda

    Ryan Peter

    Here is my take.

    Therefore, brothers, since we have confidence to enter the holy places by the blood of Jesus, by the new and living way that he opened for us through the curtain, that is, through his flesh, and since we have a great priest over the house of God, let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, with our hearts sprinkled clean from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water. Let us hold fast the confession of our hope without wavering, for he who promised is faithful. And let us consider how to stir up one another to love and good works, not neglecting to meet together, as is the habit of some, but encouraging one another, and all the more as you see the Day drawing near. For if we go on sinning deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a fearful expectation of judgment, and a fury of fire that will consume the adversaries. Anyone who has set aside the law of Moses dies without mercy on the evidence of two or three witnesses. How much worse punishment, do you think, will be deserved by the one who has spurned the Son of God, and has profaned the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has outraged the Spirit of grace?
    (Hebrews 10:19-29)

    Christians are under no obligation, none whatsoever to attend a ‘church’ where the doctrines of demons are taught, either by what is said or by what is left unsaid.
    Shane Hipps: all sails [religions] catch the same wind [Spirit of God].
    Get out!
    Rob Bell: the Christian life is the better way to live.
    Flee!
    Rick Warren: Jesus Christ came to give you a Mulligan.
    Run for you life!

    Faith = doubt.
    To say you know = arrogance.
    To question the Word of God = humility.
    For God to send somebody to hell = injustice.
    To steal from the rich to give to the poor = justice.
    Christians can learn from other religions.
    You can enter the presence of God through meditation.
    Yoga is for Christians.
    Feed the goats. Entertain the goats. Starve the sheep.
    The kingdom of God is established on earth through good works.
    The gate is wide and the way is easy that leads to the kingdom of God.
    You are the gospel.
    Don’t proclaim the Gospel, just live the life.
    Don’t speak of what Jesus Christ did, just live the way He lived and do what He did.

    People are supposed to look at my life and deduce the Gospel? Are you kidding me! No, Ryan. Christians cannot stand that. They have left. The pastors are scratching their heads to come up with new ways of getting goats to act like sheep. Good luck with that. Christians do meet and they do stir up one another to love and good works and they do encourage each other, while the ‘church’ lusts after the world and it’s kingdom.

    After this I saw another angel coming down from heaven, having great authority, and the earth was made bright with his glory. And he called out with a mighty voice, “Fallen, fallen is Babylon the great! She has become a dwelling place for demons, a haunt for every unclean spirit, a haunt for every unclean bird, a haunt for every unclean and detestable beast. For all nations have drunk the wine of the passion of her sexual immorality, and the kings of the earth have committed immorality with her, and the merchants of the earth have grown rich from the power of her luxurious living.” Then I heard another voice from heaven saying, “Come out of her, my people, lest you take part in her sins, lest you share in her plagues; for her sins are heaped high as heaven, and God has remembered her iniquities. Pay her back as she herself has paid back others, and repay her double for her deeds; mix a double portion for her in the cup she mixed. As she glorified herself and lived in luxury, so give her a like measure of torment and mourning, since in her heart she says, ‘I sit as a queen, I am no widow, and mourning I shall never see.’ For this reason her plagues will come in a single day, death and mourning and famine, and she will be burned up with fire; for mighty is the Lord God who has judged her.”
    (Revelation 18:1-8)

  • Amanda

    Ryan Peter

    Charles Spurgeon:

    From the cross of Calvary–where the bleeding hands of Jesus drop mercy–the cry comes, “Look unto Me, and be saved, all the ends of the earth!” From Calvary’s summit, where Jesus cries, “It is finished!” I hear a shout, “Look unto Me, and be saved!”

    But there comes a vile cry from our soul, “No, look to yourself! Look to yourself!” Ah, look to yourself–and you will certainly be damned! As long as you look to yourself–there is no hope for you. It is not a consideration of what you are–but a consideration of what Christ is, that can save you. You must look away from yourself, and to Jesus!

    Oh! there are many who quite misunderstand the gospel; they think that their good works qualify them to come to Christ; whereas SIN is the only qualification for man to come to Jesus!

    “It is not the healthy who need a doctor–but the sick!” Matthew 9:12

  • cecilia

    Ryan Peter, been bit busy- didn’t read posts. b4 i answer, what exactly in my comment made you ask this question? cecilia

  • Cecilia, thx for the response. It was this quote of yours above that led me to ask the question:

    “repentance is not preached as major (main?) message anymore! people rather let their congregation experience “the super-natural”, afraid they might not “draw” people, or “keep” people! a man made structure, this church(es) in our days! sad, very sad… and then when you differ, they say they will pray 4 u! thanks 4 ur answer DTW! appreciated! c”

    Are you referring to all (local) churches in our day?

  • Discerning the World

    Ryan

    Where does it say in the bible that churches are buildings? Has it crossed yer mind that the church aka the body of Christ is SPIRITUAL.

    The bible tells us to fellowship with born again Christians not just any ol’ person who says they are Christian when they are not – kinda defeats the object of not letting wolves into the sheep pen.

    Hebrews 10:25
    25 not forsaking our own assembling together, as is the habit of some, but encouraging one another; and all the more as you see the day drawing near.

    Ditto what Amanda said, “Christians are under no obligation, none whatsoever to attend a ‘church’ where the doctrines of demons are taught, either by what is said or by what is left unsaid.”

    You preach to the unsaved you proclaim the Gospel of Jesus Christ to the unsaved. But if they do not love the Lord and refuse salvation then they are to stay OUTSIDE of the pen otherwise they will come in and cause nothing but DIVISION by speaking falsely. Until such time as they repent (and they know in their hearts what’s going on in their lives) we are not to fellowship with such people.

    There is a BIG difference between going out and preaching to the unsaved and eating at the table with them and preaching the gospel of Jesus to them than going to eat at a table of known sinners who have heard the gospel of Jesus and REFUSE to repent.

  • @ Amanda,

    “Christians are under no obligation, none whatsoever to attend a ‘church’ where the doctrines of demons are taught, either by what is said or by what is left unsaid.”

    Of course what you say here is true, but remember Spurgeon was a pastor of a local church and I seriously doubt he would have supported people not going to a local church.

    These doctrines of demons are nothing new. The Bible warns us about them because they were around in those days, and they’ll be around in the days to come. In the midst of all this, the saints should not neglect getting together(Heb 10: 24,25) and encouraging each other to good works etc., for it is through the church that the manifold wisdom of God might be made known to the rulers and authorities in the heavenly places (Eph 3: 10).

    Eph 4:11-13 talks about how God has given apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors and teachers to “equip the saints for the work of ministry, for building up the body of Christ, until we all attain to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God…”

    So, a local church is important where all of this equipping goes on. The sheep must stay together or they become easy for the wolves to pick. Part of the reason why false prophets etc. are so easily able to come into the church today is because there is so much disunity – people are drifting from here to there and are not in accountable relationships or in proper pastoral care. They then begin to hold onto the gurus who have all the books and all the hype, without even realising that these gurus are false teachers.

    That’s at least the way I’m starting to see it. Let me know what you think of that.

    It might be incredibly difficult to find a local church that does not have false teachings sneaking in but I’m convinced that Jesus IS building His church like He promised, and He wouldn’t – in his Sovereign grace – let any Christian be in an area where they cannot fellowship with true believers and be equipped for the ministry (a local church). But it may be the responsibility of people to actually look for a true church in their city, even if it means driving 40 minutes to get there.

  • @ DTW

    Check my response to Amanda. I don’t believe the church is a building (of course you’re right) but I do believe the church is the “priesthood of all believers” (as the Bible calls it) which means it’s ‘a people’, and i believe that we ought to be ‘a people’ together and grow together, not be on our own.

  • Hi there,

    DTW the intended recipients of the epistles were local churches, case in point the church in Thesolonica, “Paul and Silvanus and Timothy, To the church of the Thessalonians in God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ: Grace to you and peace.”

    They are believers meeting togeather in defined bodies. Obviously it’s not about the buildings but it is about serving in and worshiping with other believers.

    Think of the following 2 verses, “For this reason I have sent to you Timothy, who is my beloved and faithful child in the Lord, and he will remind you of my ways which are in Christ, just as I teach everywhere in every church.” and “I robbed other churches by taking wages {from} {them} to serve you;” These verses aren’t refering to spiritual groupings but defined bodies of believers.

    I’m not arguing that some churches are messed up, and I’m not saying that the church is made up of any Tom, Dick or Harry. I’m saying that The Church Universal is made up of bodies of local churches.

  • I reread the comment and I should have written, “I’m not arguing that some churches aren’t messed up, and I’m not saying that the church is made up of any Tom, Dick or Harry either. I’m saying that The Church Universal is made up of believers out of bodies of local churches.”

  • cecilia

    Ryan:1st question, answer: yes. BUT: Hebrews 10:25 (New International Version)

    “25Let us not give up meeting together, as some are in the habit of doing, but let us encourage one another—and all the more as you see the Day approaching.” so where does it mention “that we should go to a local church”? (your question 2 me).

    2nd answer: no. BUT: if u go 2 & look at churches, there are very few that’s not shod on the Purpose Driven Movement.

    Ryan, on your last comment I’m gonna answer you from the Purpose Driven Blueprint by Tamara http://www.inthenameofpurpose.org/chp1.htm

    “Is it Through the Blood of Our Redeemer Jesus Christ or the Lifeblood of a Local Church That We Have Spiritual Life?
    In Churchianity, commitment to a local church is imperative.
    “The Bible says a Christian without a church home is like an organ without a body, a sheep without a flock, or a child without a family. It is an unnatural state. The Bible says, ‘You belong in God’s household with every other Christian.’ [endnote: Ephesians 2:19b (LB)]” (PDL; p. 132; bold added)

    Actually, Rick Warren’s first instance of “the Bible says” has no endnote because this is not what God’s Word says! Going ahead and claiming “the Bible says” when it does not say so is scriptural malpractice. His second instance of “the Bible says” is from one of the versions that has changed God’s Word.
    “For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father. Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens with the saints, and of the household of God.” (Ephesians 2:18-19)

    Because of our faith in the Lord Jesus Christ, the Holy Spirit indwells us and makes us a part of the household of God, the true Body of Christ, which is not the local church. Fellowship with other believers, which is important, does not require a local church for it to take place. Yes, fellowship in a local church is ideal, when there is one available that isn’t trading in the Word of God for popular false doctrines sweeping Christianity today. But man-centered, purpose-driven Churchianity takes committing to a local church to a whole new level in its replacement of Christ with community.

    “You must be connected to a church fellowship to survive spiritually.” —Rick Warren’s 40 Days of Community Workbook (Emphasis added)7

    “Any organ that is detached from the body will not only miss what it was created to be, it will also shrivel and die quickly. The same is true for Christians that are uncommitted to any specific congregation.” —Rick Warren (Bold added)8

    “If an organ is somehow severed from its body, it will shrivel and die. It cannot exist on its own, and neither can you. Disconnected and cut off from the lifeblood of a local body, your spiritual life will wither and eventually cease to exist. [endnote: Ephesians 4:16 (no version listed)]” (PDL; p. 131; emphasis added)

    The local churches are not the source of “lifeblood” that gives life to our spirit! Ephesians 4:16 says absolutely nothing of these outlandish claims. If our spiritual life ceased to exist because we didn’t attend a local church, then the local church would be God’s redeeming agent in salvation.

    Contrarily, true spiritual life is the eternal life we are given when our spirit is born again. True spiritual life is the life that Jesus Christ lives in us through His indwelling Holy Spirit, when we receive God’s free gift of salvation by believing the Gospel of Christ. This true spiritual life is sustained by the Lord God, not by the local church! And if this life ever ceased to exist, that person would have no salvation. It is through the blood of our Redeemer Jesus Christ, not the lifeblood of a local church, that we have spiritual life and are delivered from death. But “the message hasn’t changed”!

    “For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death. For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: that the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.… And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.” (Romans 8:2-4, 10)

    “I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me. I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.” (Galatians 2:20-21)

    In addition, rather than the pure and sinless life and blood of Jesus Christ, look at the “lifeblood” that Rick Warren would have us depend on for our spiritual life:

    “There will never be a perfect church this side of heaven, because every church is filled with pagans, carnal Christians, and immature believers.” —Rick Warren (Emphasis added)9”

    >> as I always say: we’ve got choices to make, we carry the consequences.

    thanks Debs, thanks Amanda!

    cecilia

  • Discerning the World

    Ryan

    Jesus is the High Priest. Who exaclty do you think should be includes as ‘a people’ under His Authority? Everyone?

    We are actually speaking about two different things here. You are speaking about a world living in harmon and peace and growing together all following ‘a’ God no matter what faith they choose. I am speaking about only born again Christians being ‘a people’ under Jesus Christ.

  • Discerning the World

    Mark Penrith.

    I get what you are saying. There is a very slight different however to what you say and what I said. I say that only SAVED born again believers form part of the body of Christ – the church of which Jesus Christ is the High Priest.

    You are saying that all churches or denominations or people who say they are Christian fall under the universal or spiritual church. Not so.

    You can have 1 born again saved believer within an entire group (church) of people. Only that 1 is part of the body of Christ. The rest are not.

  • Discerning the World

    C

    I just ammended the formatting of your comment cos there were no line spaces or paragraphs but I think I messed things up now – please check that that is what you wrote and I have put the line spaces in the right place.

  • Amanda

    Ryan Peter:

    Part of the reason why false prophets etc. are so easily able to come into the church today is because there is so much disunity – people are drifting from here to there and are not in accountable relationships or in proper pastoral care.

    Disunity? I don’t think so. The body of Christ, with Him as the head and not the church, is working just fine.

    Try as you might, you will never be able to unify the body of Christ to the New Age, liberal, emergent, ubuntu, world religions. It cannot be done.

    So, what are you going to do?

  • @ DTW

    “Jesus is the High Priest. Who exaclty do you think should be includes as ‘a people’ under His Authority? Everyone?”

    The Bible teaches that ALL nations are under the sovereign authority of God. Do you not believe that God reigns over all, even if people do not believe in Him? He rules the nations with His rod of iron.

    “We are actually speaking about two different things here. You are speaking about a world living in harmon and peace and growing together all following ‘a’ God no matter what faith they choose. I am speaking about only born again Christians being ‘a people’ under Jesus Christ.”

    I have not in any single writing of mine EVER said that all can follow “a God no matter what faith they choose.” I’ve never once said that all religions lead to the Father. I’ve never advocated one-world religion in any single one of my writings absolutely anywhere. Even in my conversations with people who might even believe, I have never agreed with them.

    And I certainly NEVER will, and certainly did not say that in my post about the church above anywhere. I agree with you 100 percent on this – there is NO salvation found anywhere except through Jesus Christ, and repentance of sin is absolutely necessary to enter into (and maintain) this relationship with God.

    ONLY those that believe in Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of sins and salvation are the universal church, but the universal church is made up of local church. It just makes geographical sense, especially if we use the Bible as our model for understanding church. As Mark Penrith pointed out, the epistles are written to local bodies of believers.

    And even amongst these local bodies of believers both Paul, John and Peter warned that there were false prophets within them. Rather than exhort them to ‘come out’ of the local church because there were false prophets there, they rather exhorted them to kick the false prophets out.

    Remember Jesus’ parable about the wheat and tares, and how God lets the tares grow up amongst the wheat and pulls them out later to be burned? The church will always consist of both wheat and tares, and God will sort out the tares.

    Consider the book of 1 Corinthians. This is written from Paul to a local church of believers.

    Yet it is full of rebuke – lawsuits amongst believers (1 Cor 6); sexual sin in the church (1 Cor 5); divisions in the church (1 Cor 3 and 1 Cor 1:10); idolatry (1 Cor 10); abuse of spiritual gifts (1 Cor 12); false doctrine (1 Cor 15 – some were saying Christ wasn’t raised from the dead).

    Look at how Paul addresses them, with 1 Cor 3 as an example.

    “But I, brothers, could not address you as spiritual people, but as people of the flesh, as infants in Christ… (vs 3) for you are still of the flesh.”

    1 Cor 1:10: “I appeal to you, brothers, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be united in the same mind and same judgement… (vs 11)… there is quarrelling among you, my brothers“.

    See 1 Cor 7:17 – “Only let each person lead the life that the Lord has assigned to him, and to which God has called him. This is my rule in all the churches.” (A little showing of Paul’s heart towards local church here, and how local church is what is in mind – not universal church.)

    1 Cor 10 vs 1 – Paul calls the Corinthians “brothers” and then talks about idolatry in the Corinthian church.

    vs 14 “Therefore, my beloved, flee from idolatry.”

    Check 1 Cor 11: 17 – 19 “But in the following instructions I do not commend you, because when you come together it is not for the better but for the worse. I hear there are divisions among you. And I believe it in part, for there must be factions among you in order that those who are genuine among you may be recognised.

    Paul is writing to a local church, saying there are factions in the local church. He warned against division earlier in the epistle, but he also says here that we should expect there to be some form of faction in the local church – but he never exhorts these factions to stop fellowshipping together. Rather, he repeatedly exhorts throughout the book (1 Cor 1:10-17 and 1 Cor 3) that they should be united – under the headship and authority of Jesus Christ, not under any person and not under any other doctrine except what was passed down to them.

    He never once exhorts those who are genuine among them to ‘get out’ but rather exhorts those who are genuine to either (a) get the others out – (1 Cor 5) or build the others up into truth (1 Cor 12; 13; 14: 26, 16:14; and in many other places) and then reaffirms this in his next epistle to the same church in 2 Cor 2: 1-11, where he says the sinner that was previously expelled can now be forgiven and welcomed back, as the punishment has run its course.

    Consider this, would you call ‘Christians’ involved with sexual immorality, divisions, abuse of spiritual gifts, lawsuits, false doctrine etc. ‘brothers’? Paul did, evident here in 1 Corinthians without question.

    All of these issues are also in our church(es) today. There is no place in the bible where the Bible exhorts us to leave the local church on account of false doctrines and prophets – rather to deal with them in the local church.

    @ Cecilia,

    Please see my response to DTW above for some more examples.

    Heb 10:25 says “not neglecting to meet together, as is the habit of some, but encouraging one another…”

    By geographical logic, the letter of Hebrews is addressed to the Church (universal) made up of churches (local).

    See the last verse of Hebrews – Heb 13:22 “I appeal to you, brothers, bear with my word of exhortation, for I have written to you briefly. You should know that our brother Timothy has been released, with whom I will send you if he comes soon. Greet all your leaders and all the saints. Those who come from Italy send you greetings.”

    The letter talks about leaders. This implies that there is local church(es) being addressed – local church would have a leader, whereas Christians on their own (getting together for coffee on Saturdays, for instance) is not what is in mind. There is an implication of leadership, which implies local church(es).

    You didn’t really address everything I said about Ephesians 4 above, where the church is made up of pastors, teachers etc. A local church has people functioning in these posts, but a group of people getting together is not a local church if everyone just does their own thing.

    The sense of community is without a doubt very clear in the Scriptures. It’s all over the place – remembering, too, that the Hebrew culture that Christianity comes from was very community focused.

    Your salvation is not found IN your community, it is found IN Christ. It is worked with the Holy Spirit.

    Consider the fact that the letter of Philippians is written to a local church (the saints in Christ Jesus who are at Philippi – Phil 1: 1) and Paul addresses the local church as his ‘beloved’ in Phil 2: 12, and says “Therefore, my beloved… work our your salvation with fear and trembling.” He is talking to a local church, a body of believers, made up of individuals.

    Our relationship is with God first, yes, and we should love and fellowship with those who God loves and fellowships with, after all we want to echo His heart.

    Remember what Jesus said were the two greatest commandments? “Love the Lord your God with all your heart and all your soul and all your mind… and love your neighbour as yourself.” The two go hand in hand, for “if we walk in the light, as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another” (1 John 7).

    I’m speaking of the church, not the world, in case you’re not sure.

    Certainly, let us not put the cart before the horse. God comes first. But your relationship with God is not lived out in a vacuum, it is lived out amongst others in a relationship with God. Even the Living God Himself, the triune God, lives in community (Father, Son and Holy Spirit). We abide in him, he abides in us, and through local church we equip and teach others how to abide in Him.

    Else how would they know the message unless someone speaks it to them? (Romans 10).

    Talking about Bible translations, I wouldn’t rely on the NIV. The NASB or ESV is far more better, being a more literal translation. The NIV is a transliteration (thought for thought) rather than a word for word translation, such as the NASB or ESV or KJV.

  • Correction to the above : where I said “Even in my conversations with people who might even believe, I have never agreed with them”

    I meant

    “Even in my conversations with people who might even believe this (meaning one world religion), I have never agreed with them”

  • @ Amanda

    “Disunity? I don’t think so. The body of Christ, with Him as the head and not the church, is working just fine.

    Try as you might, you will never be able to unify the body of Christ to the New Age, liberal, emergent, ubuntu, world religions. It cannot be done.

    So, what are you going to do?”

    Simple – I’m not going to try and unify the body of Christ to the New Age, liberal, emergent, ubuntu, world religions. :) I, myself, have no interest in doing that.

  • Discerning the World

    Ryan

    Ok, if we believe the same thing, then why are we arguing? What is it exactly that I am saying that differs to what you are saying? I know what it is, but I want you to say it – come out and say it, stop beating around the bush here.

    hint: repentance of sin – let’s talk about this as this is the key issue here. You speak about repentance, but there is a slight difference to what I say and how you think it is. It’s this slight difference that makes for two ENTIRELY different messages.

    And why are you reading Brian McLaren and his blatant anti-Christian rubbish – he believes that all faiths lead to the same god and celebrated Ramadan? How can you in any way or form agree with someone who can do this? I ask with tears in my eyes!!!

    I don’t get your point regarding bible translations. I know the NIV is a watered down version. I wonder what version Brian reads. Is this the cause of him getting the message of the gospel of Jesus Christ completely wrong or is it because he is a wicked man with wicked intentions of dismantling the Gospel of Jesus Christ and changing everything by removing REPENTANCE OF SIN out the the equation.

    Regarding your comment of the truine God living in community: “Even the Living God Himself, the triune God, lives in community (Father, Son and Holy Spirit). We abide in him, he abides in us, and through local church we equip and teach others how to abide in Him.”

    Good grief Ryan do you understand what you have just said? You have included man into the godhood. You have included his creation into Himself. Being part of the body of Christ does NOT mean you are actually part of the body Christ or part of God in any way what-so-ever. This is new age speak. Why can’t you see this? You just refuse to take cogniscence of what you are really saying. You come here and speak like a Christian and then on Emergeingafrica with Nic Paton (who believes that Jesus and Satan are one and the same) you speak the reverse.

    This is the fine line between being a born again Christian and a new age Christian.

    1) A born again Christian is saved through genuine repentance of sin, knowing that we are sinners and believe by faith that Jesus Christ died for our sin and His blood washes us spotless to present us before a Holy Holy God (who can NOT tolerate sin at all). When one becomes genuinely saved the Holy Spirit comes to abide you. The Holy Spirit is Jesus Christ, He is God’s voice to guide you. The Bible is God’s Word. The Word of God is Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit is the One who interprets scripture. As you grow in Jesus Christ (THROUGH REPENTANCE OF SIN) your relationship grows with God through Jesus Christ and the more the Holy Spirit speak to you. It’s a relationship. A born again Christian becomes Christ-like through the guidance of the Holy Spirit and with this comes the fruit of the Holy Spirit. Having the Holy Spirit abide in you does NOT mean you can become like Jesus did or do what He did. We are sinners and forgiven – that’s it. Any all this by the GRACE of God.

    2) The new age Christian believes that the entire world is saved because God sent his only Son to save the world for those who believe. So just believe and you will be saved. But genuine repentance plays no part in this so called salvation. They speak like a Christian (to a point) and speak the name of Jesus but there are certain things that are the FUNDAMENTALS of Christianity that are missing – this then changes the entire doctrine. They speak about being Christ-like to the point of actually becomeing just like Jesus Christ did when He walked this earth. The new age Christian teaching of following in Christ’s footsteps or following Jesus and becoming like Him is based on the idea that when we find the God in us we actually become a Christ of sorts – as they grow in their goodness and their loving the world the more they learn Christ like values and transcend to become a little god. And new age grace is not the same as orthodox biblical grace. Again there are two different meanings.

    Regarding the rest of your comment, please go back and re-read what I said, expecially the last part about sitting around the table with sinners and preaching to them vs sitting around the table with sinners who REFUSE to repent.

  • Discerning the World

    Ryan

    What do you think is a ‘one world religion’? Do you think it’s Christianity or religions beliving in Christ without having to leave their religion? Like Brian McLaren celebrating Ramadan, sitting around the table with muslims who believe in Christ but remain muslim?

    Oh sigh…I wish you could see the giagantic difference between new age Christianity and biblical Christianity.

    When the bible speaks about loving your neighbour it does not mean you go and accept their beliefs in the hope that they one day if ever they convert to what you believe. I will NOT go and celebrate a feast dedicated to another god in the hopes that they will see my point of view because I want to get along with their point of view..

  • Pooh Bear

    DTW,
    Can you define what you mean by “…muslims who believe in Christ but remain muslim”? Do you mean they still believe that Muhammad is God’s last prophet and that the Koran is God’s inspired word? Or do you mean simply that they continue to practice Muslim traditions whilst believing in Christ as Saviour & Lord?

    I don’t see how the latter can be a problem even to fundamentalist Christianity! In fact, I know some conservative missionaries who are saying that it’s important not to try and convert Muslims to a westernized Christianity with its Western “dress”, but rather that they allow their faith to be expressed, relative to their own culture.

  • DTW

    “Ok, if we believe the same thing, then why are we arguing? What is it exactly that I am saying that differs to what you are saying? I know what it is, but I want you to say it – come out and say it, stop beating around the bush here.”

    Ok, no beating around the bush :) But please remember that I don’t want to be thrown off this blog because I’m honest. I’m trying my best to fall within your rules and of course be civil.

    My main concern is that I don’t think you, Amanda or Cecilia are linked in with any local church at all. Why I’m concerned about this is because:

    You have no accountability. You can say what you like and do what you like, and justify it as much as you want because you are not in accountable relationships of any sort. (This is an honest reflection, I’m not judging, simply laying my case.)

    See how the relationships are worked out in the Scriptures. When Peter made a mistake, Paul rebuked him, and Peter later on commends Paul for his writings. Peter could have claimed “well, who are you to talk Paul? I have a relationship with God and am only accountable to him, not you.”

    Yet that doesn’t happen. Peter accepts the rebuke on the nose – and Paul wasn’t even one of the original disciples!

    God gave us pastors, teachers etc. to help us in our walk – relationships, friendship, fellowship, all these wonderful things so that we could be properly equipped and held accountable.

    But who is holding you accountable for your actions? Your speech? Your conduct? In the Scriptures Paul was holding the churches accountable through his relationship with them – and asking them to encourage and build each other up. Who is pastoring you? Who is equipping you for the work of the ministry as mentioned in Eph 4:11? Who is encouraging you? Who is helping you with difficult scriptures? Who is helping to take the plank out of your eye, in genuine love and respect?

    I hope not the Internet. And I don’t think getting together for coffee on Saturdays is following the scriptures either.

    That’s my real dilemma. If you want to talk about repentance of sin, I don’t mind, we can gladly talk about it and see if we actually differ. I’ll respond to that part of your post later today (got a ton of work to finish now) but this above is really my main concern and argument, set out in a candid way.

  • cecilia

    is God logical? can we understand Him or His marvellous doings in this world by reason of ‘logic’? just a question. cecilia

  • cecilia

    could these 2 learned gentlemen please supply scripture proof about the “universal church”? or does that flows from “logic”? cecilia

  • Michael Anthony

    Ryan

    The sheep must stay together or they become easy for the wolves to pick. Part of the reason why false prophets etc. are so easily able to come into the church today is because there is so much disunity – people are drifting from here to there and are not in accountable relationships or in proper pastoral care.

    Nope, the reason for false prophets being allowed to have free reign in the modern church is because biblical illiteracy. The problem with the modern church is not that it is not necessarily not preaching the gospel – it is a diluted version or just a dumbing down of Christianity.

    I understand you are trying to make a point but you seem to be caught in a spin cycle of your own circular reasoning. Try an exegesis of scripture instead of using them to support what’s on your mind.

    Of course we should all fellowship in a local church or with fellow believers. Do we really need a thesis on this? We just need to prove all things, test all things – if a church leaves the biblical program, we leave that church.

  • Michael Anthony

    Apologies, it did not come out clear —

    The first paragraph in the above post is a quote (Ryan)

    “The sheep must stay together or they become easy for the wolves to pick. Part of the reason why false prophets etc. are so easily able to come into the church today is because there is so much disunity – people are drifting from here to there and are not in accountable relationships or in proper pastoral care.”

  • cecilia

    Ryan, when you read McLaren, when you read Rick Warren, when you read Rick Joyner, when you read whatever you read, do you also “advice” them which translations to use, seen I often find them using a translation that’s not actually a Bible, namely “the Message”?

    Ryan Peter
    October 12th, 2009 at 11:50 pm – you only mentioned Hebr. 10:25 – I reacted on that! my sermons is a lot longer than yours, so I usually don’t reply with a sermon, people switch off after a few minutes.

    I think what I actually want to say is that we’re trying not to run tooo far off the topic on hand …. cecilia

  • Discerning the World

    No accountabliltiy? Not linked? Ok, don’t be concerned *choking on a carrot* – let me just take a few moments to catch my breath here).

    You can’t be serious? So who are you accontable to exactly? And no I don’t want their name or church name either. Are you saying you are accountable to a PERSON? And who are hey accountable too if that is the case? And who is that person accountable too? And when does this stop? Once the most accountable at the top gets to speak to God directly for instruction and then relay that message back to you?

    So where does the Bible then fall into this picture? A 2nd hand book after the human ‘fact’ is presented via powerpoint? And that then does away with the for the Holy Spirit who IS our COUNCELLOR.

    I am so glad I am not accountable to whoever you are accountable too. I mean who knows what they could be teaching you.

  • Discerning the World

    Pooh Bear

    >> Or do you mean simply that they continue to practice Muslim traditions whilst believing in Christ as Saviour & Lord? I don’t see how the latter can be a problem even to fundamentalist Christianity! In fact, I know some conservative missionaries who are saying that it’s important not to try and convert Muslims to a westernized Christianity with its Western “dress”, but rather that they allow their faith to be expressed, relative to their own culture.

    Well…ok….then… thanks for that valuable information on what a New Age Christian believes.

    I said to Ryan, “When the bible speaks about loving your neighbour it does not mean you go and accept their beliefs in the hope that they one day if ever they convert to what you believe. I will NOT go and celebrate a feast dedicated to another god in the hopes that they will see my point of view because I want to get along with their point of view..”

    Culture vs Religion

    Lastly I have noticed that New Age thinkers have this complete lack in ability to distinguish between religion and culture. Somene else did this too. Islam is not a culture. Islam is a religion. Hindiusm is a religion, it is not a culture. A Hindu who becomes saved does not have to conform to western culture and stop eating curry (curry= culture). If they were to continue putting the dot on the forehead I would say no ways (this is not because of anything westernised, this is because the dot representes the third eye or 6th Chakra). If a muslim became saved they would not be a muslim anymore. Depending on where they lived they would keep certain customs (that had nothing to do with anything religious at all). You get muslims in australia, are you telling me they now all take on the muslim culture of one that lives in the desert? No.

    So again please explain to me how attending a RELIGIOUS custom in honour of Allah (the god of the moon and stars) is in any way Christian? I refer you back to the 10 commandments

  • Discerning the World

    Ryan

    Just a question, let’s say all this ‘accountability’ nonsense that you are speaking about (trying to divert attention from the ‘repentance of sin’ question) – (and Brian McLaren issue), let’s just say for example that I am accountable to a someone older and more wiser than I. I tested him to make sure that he does not preach another gospel by using scripture.

    Now…how do you know if the one you are accountable too is not misleading you? Do you test and weigh and go and find out for yourself if he is telling you the truth? What would you do if you found out he was wrong?

    Would you email Brian McLaren and ask him if he is telling you the truth in his books? If he said ‘of course’ would you believe him or would you TEST him. It is clear you are not doing any testing because you still think Brian McLaren is cool even after all the horrendus anti-Christian stuff he has said.

    Please answer this question. There are 2 answers. The new age Christian answer and a biblical answer.

    Tell me, there is an island of 100 people. And 1 person sees a bottle floating on the water and he opens it and it speaks about the savlation, repentance of sin through the cross and Jesus Christ. He gets GENUINELY saved. He passes the message onto the rest and none of them care. He changes his ways and starts living a Godly life. There is no church to go too, no one to fellowship with. In fact he is now hated because the other islanders can see he is now different from them. They taunt him, they taunt him and hate him so much that he is forced to leave the island in any way he can. But poor guy does not make it to far from the island, he dies, but he IS saved….or is he Ryan?

    So please tell us all who this lonesome little guy was accountable too?

  • Amanda

    Ryan Peter

    My main concern is that I don’t think you, Amanda or Cecilia are linked in with any local church at all. Why I’m concerned about this is because:

    You have no accountability. You can say what you like and do what you like, and justify it as much as you want because you are not in accountable relationships of any sort.

    So Ryan, let’s set up a little church for a moment. [DTW and Cecilia, please close your eyes. This ain’t going to be pretty.] We have you as the pastor and Nic, Roger, DTW, Cecilia and myself and some others as your little flock. Nic waxes eloquent about the holy trickster and Roger says:

    The Emergent teaching (whatever that is) is not about all faiths leading to one God – I don’t know where you get that. I don’t know enough about the internal tensions with Islam and Buddhism to comment about them, but I know to judge them on the fruit they lead to, and one of the fruits of the spirit is peace. If a religion does not lead to peace, the Holy Spirit is not working within it. If your Christian faith does not lead you to be a peacemaker, same thing.

    C, D and me shout ‘foul’, rebuke them and warn everybody else. You jump into action and enforce accountability. Who gets it in the neck, the heretics, or those that are ‘divisive’, ‘unloving’ and troublemakers by pointing out the heresy? [Okay, you can look now.]

  • Discerning the World

    Amanda

    No shucks, that is horrible. I can see why you made us close our eyes. haha

    Actually this whole accountability thing sounds remotely catholic don’t ya think? In a world community (little churches) all linked to bigger churches (authorities) all linked to some extra big authorities who then proceed to the big cheese for the latest on biblical studies. He then tells then proceeds to ‘interceed’ to God for instructions- the message goes down to the little community. Big Cheese says you need to walk around in circles and bang your head 4 times on the floor after you ploghed the land and gave away all you had to others – the more you suffer the more you will be like Christ. We are all one (except you and you, oh and you over there – take them away to be shot, just make sure you do take the firing squad through the holistic approach to killing someone – don’t want too much blood on our super thick extra fluffy velvet purple carpets).

  • cecilia

    Oh nooo, Ryan is keeping us so busy, he hasn’t got time to do his own job!… lol

    Ryan:

    >>> I don’t see the answer to my question yet:
    could these 2 learned gentlemen please supply scripture proof about the “universal church”?

    >>> “simply laying my case”
    WHAT case? Let me open the file….. Oh Nooooo, it’s empty!

    Ryan, either you can’t read, or your simply ignoring our words, or both. In both you are SO wrong! Come back to earth then maybe there will be a dialogue …..

    >>> I answered your question:
    “Hi Cecilia, out of interest – do you go to a local church of any sort?” here: October 14th, 2009 at 12:24 am

    Ryan:1st question, answer: yes. BUT: Hebrews 10:25 (New International Version) (did you see the YES ?!)
    “25Let us not give up meeting together, as some are in the habit of doing, but let us encourage one another—and all the more as you see the Day approaching.” so where does it mention “that we should go to a local church”? (your question 2 me).

    >>> yet you didn’t answered my question (which I have made bold here 4 you to see (again?)…

    An article with much insight was written here:
    Sun, 2009-10-11 17:26 — Gert Marincowitz (not verified) Discerning and Judging Ourselves & Others, and Internal Critique

    On which “Stray” did not answered! (that’s now Ryan Peter….) Rather, a few comments further he chose to change the subject …..

    If DTW say so, I’ll copy that comment here; I don’t do it now, because it is very long, go read yourself (if you haven’t yet…… but then, how come you commented 3 comments onwards… oh yes, I forgot, you choose what to read …. Interesting….)

    Which makes me want to ask the question: is it the “women” thing Ryan? You don’t like it when women speak out, because they reason a little different than men? (oh no, now I’m changing the subject!)

    >>> Added to this is another UNANSWERED question I posed to you earlier:

    “when you read McLaren, when you read Rick Warren, when you read Rick Joyner, when you read whatever you read, do you also “advice” them which translations to use, seen I often find them using a translation that’s not actually a Bible, namely “the Message”?”

    >>> Ryan says: “You have no accountability. (This is an honest reflection, I’m not judging, simply laying my case.)”
    my “honest reflection” – you are LYING your case, because this was not a reflection, this was an assessment, a statement.

    So please stop lying Ryan?

    >>> Ryan, Peter and Paul worked together, side by side. Christianity way back then, was not spread throughout the whole earth. If and when I throw my weight behind the cause of another in a church – as you would like us to speak about – THEN I can take this as an example.

    Why are you trying to force “CHURCIANITY” down on us all? Because we dare to differ from your “easy to understand structures”?

    >>>” But who is holding you accountable for your actions? Your speech? Your conduct?”

    Ever heard of the Holy Spirit who convicts, teaches, guides into all truth …. etc. Ryan? I don’t have to have a mere sinful human being telling me I’m wrong. Come quiet times with my Lord and Savior, He speaks to me by His Holy Spirit and His Word. Not just of what I did wrong … but also where I am doing well …. Where will I find a person who knows exactly what I meant when I said or done something, Ryan? Do you submit all your entries here to the one your are accountable to?

    >>> Deborah, the accountability thing – yah well, you’re actually lucky if you’re on the top. Because this is where all the pastors (leaders) get together and “discuss” problem areas and problem people, and give each other advice (from what they’ve learned in books, or watched on TBN and so on – and when you dare tell them this is a form of gossiping, they slowly “work you out” the church where they want to know exactly what is going on in. no no no no! the leaders don’t gossip, they DISCUSS…

    DTW
    >>> “A Hindu who becomes saved does not have to conform to western culture and stop eating curry (curry= culture).”

    Oh thank heavens for that! I would miss the bryani – nobody can make it like them…. But they still can’t get me to wear a sari! They’ve tried, in vain….

    >>> Amanda: I echo DTW’s words : “No shucks, that is horrible. I can see why you made us close our eyes. Haha”. I’ll laugh, but the carrot……..

    Well, you know DTW, you know the churches in the world ALL stem from the Mother of all Churches, we all know that. But as the churches progressed out of, or then segregated (I think that’s the word?) Mother -> sisters churches -> Pentecostals -> Charismatic -> and they all divided and divided and divided …. The Mother’s influence can be seen all the way from the top right down through the bottom…

    cecilia

  • Look, you guys can continue ignoring scripture on the importance of local church but it won’t make it go away.

    None of you have responded at all to the scriptures I quoted above, especially in light of 1 Corinthians.

    In fact, I don’t see any of you quoting scripture anywhere to support your view of local church, besides Revelation 18 which is referring to Babylon and says nothing about not going to a local church or being accountable to a local body of believers, and a few verses about salvation which all say nothing about not going to a local church.

    Can anyone of you explain to me why Paul talks about apostles, prophets, teachers, evangelists and pastors in Ephesians 4? Why Paul writes to Timothy and gives him guidelines for ‘overseers’ or elders in 1 Tim 3? Who the ‘instructions for the church’ in 1 Tim 5 are for? (the church universal, or the local church Timothy is a pastor of?) Why Paul addresses a clearly rebellious church in 1 Corinthians as ‘brothers’? Why John writes a letter to an ‘elder’ in 3 John? Who the ‘elect lady’ is in 2 John? Why Jesus has SEVEN golden lampstands (representing LOCAL churches) in his right hand in Revelation instead of one huge lampstand representing the Universal Church? What Jesus was referring to in Matthew 18:15-17 (take your brother’s sin to ‘the church’. Well, what church? The universal church? Of course not – a LOCAL church, otherwise the scripture makes no sense.)

    I’m interested in hearing how you interpret these verses.

    I could go on with many scriptures all talking about the local church. I could also use examples of people it seems you seem to have a certain respect for, like Charles Spurgeon. Why was he a pastor of a church? Why did he GO to a church? When you read his sermons there appears to have been a lot of trouble in his day as well, but he never exhorted people not to go to a local church. Why is that?

    Your issues (Amanda, this is a response to your response too) with accountability are covered by Jesus in Matthew 18: 15-17. You’re thinking I mean a hierarchy of accountability (top-down type of model) when I am talking about a MUTUAL accountability.

    You’re forgetting the Biblical exhortation for leaders to be ‘shepherds’ not bosses or popes etc. Even the word ‘king’ in Hebrew is synonymous with the word ‘shepherd’. ‘Rule’ in the Scriptures has connotations to shepherding, not tyrannical controlling leadership.

    Just because the catholic church has gotten this wrong in the past, as well as other churches, doesn’t mean you should throw the baby out with the bathwater. The Bible is more than adequate to cover these excesses and show us what leaders we ought to be and what leaders we ought to be accountable to. Jesus the King is more than able to take care of leaders in the church who abuse others.

    If I could use my own situation as an example. I am accountable to the pastors in my church, who are accountable to each other and also accountable to all the members in the congregation (the priesthood of all believers). Mutual accountability easily happens in this circumstance.

    Not only that, but all the leaders are also accountable to churches that they relate to, which consist of leaders and congregations, and the network of relationships increases so we all have MUTUAL accountability.

    This is not a denomination – not a top down leadership structure. Churches are autonomous. This is accountability through friendship – teachers relating to teachers and holding each other accountable, pastors relating to pastors and each holding each other accountable etc.

    But they’re doing more than getting together for coffee on Saturdays. It’s all about equipping the saints for the ministry (Eph 4).

    Consider how your problem with accountability works against you. How do I know you’re not teaching me lies at your website DTW? What assures me you’re not trying to be some leader of a cult, without being accountable to anyone anywhere? I have no assurance whatsoever about your teachings for the simple fact that there’s no one to vouch for you.

    Yes, you can say ‘God vouches for me’ or ‘I am accountable ONLY to God’, but that sounds remarkably similar to what cult leaders like Jim Jones have said. Your non-accountability holds back your ministry from being truly effective. You are as easily able to fall into a heresy, even if that heresy doesn’t look like Brian Mclaren or new age teachings.

    No church replaces what GOD does, but local church is important and the scriptures above – plus many more – show that it is God’s heart we all link in to a local church.

    Your story of the island DTW doesn’t address the issue when it comes to real life. You or I are not on an island and are not lone believers on an island of people that hate us and want to kill us. Your example is an extreme circumstance and can by no means serve as any type of guideline to normal everyday life.

    But to answer some of your question, if the island want to kill the man for his faith then being a martyr is probably what he needs to do rather than run away.

    Can I dare you guys to do something?

    I triple dog dare you to ask the Lord Jesus Christ yourself in prayer what He says about local church. I am so confident that He wants us all be a part of a local church that I believe He will speak to you about it – like show you a scripture. I am sure you believe He answers prayer? He is faithful!

    As to repentance of sin, I believe that repentance of sin is necessary to enter into a relationship with God, and repentance necessary to keep the relationship and grow with God, as per 1 John 1:9. I have no disagreement with you over the issue.

    I don’t believe the entire world is saved, I believe that the entire world CAN be saved if they accept Jesus Christ as their Lord and saviour. If you find any writings of mine anywhere where I differ, please quote me on them and we can discuss them.

    If I have represented this view incorrectly in these writings, I’ll gladly repent of making that mistake – but I don’t believe I have said anywhere at any time that I don’t believe in the repentance of sin or that the world is actually truly saved and is not required to come to faith in Jesus through repentance. (Not even in my discussions with Emerging church people have I veered away from this viewpoint.)

    As I said above, my issue here is not the repentance of sin question. My issue is church accountability. Here is where we mainly differ.

  • cecilia

    I just want to add here, in case Ryan gets confused again and read into my words what is the easiest for him to make sense – be logic :

    I DO HEED TO OTHER RESPECTABLE PEOPLE in my life. But even those word I’ll take to the Bible, so as not to react on man’s word, but on God’s.
    cecilia

  • cecilia

    ohh ohh another apology (as Michael Anthony puts it so nicely…) – I didn’t mean Ryan, Peter and Paul worked together …. Let me put it like this:

    Ryan,
    Peter and Paul worked together side by side ….
    cecilia

  • Pooh Bear

    DTW,
    “A Hindu … If they were to continue putting the dot on the forehead I would say no ways (this is not because of anything westernised, this is because the dot represents the third eye or 6th Chakra).”

    Just like Paul said that whatever you eat or drink do it to glorify God and don’t cause anyone else to stumble, what if an Indian Christian puts a dot on their forehead without believing in other gods? Surely God looks at the heart and not the forehead?? (Would you stop a child at a party putting a dot on their forehead? Surely not). It comes down to the motive behind the action!

  • Hi Cecilia,

    I had thought you meant “Yes” to my question of whether you are anti-church. I’m sorry about getting confused, it’s a little difficult with a comments and trying to track what question was asked where.

    So you go to a local church then, I’m glad to hear it :)

    As to your issue with me not commenting on the latest comment on the emergingafrica site, look at the dates of the comments. My comment on that post dates 29-09-2009, that latest comment you’re referring to is dated 11-10-2009. The system at the site allows people to respond to a particular thread, and so I have not responded because the comment is later than mine.

    “Which makes me want to ask the question: is it the “women” thing Ryan? You don’t like it when women speak out, because they reason a little different than men? (oh no, now I’m changing the subject!)”

    I’m sorry, I’ve got no idea what you’re talking about, lol.

    “Why are you trying to force “CHURCIANITY” down on us all? Because we dare to differ from your “easy to understand structures”?

    Ag nee Cecilia, so we differ from how we read these scriptures? Okay. But Roger differs to you guys on how he reads scriptures– but that’s not okay? You can’t have your cake and eat it too.

    Plus you haven’t said a stitch about how you DO read these scriptures, which I’m interested in hearing.

    I’m okay with people differing. Are you really okay with that too? How far is too far with differing? It seems to me that it’s convenient for DTW or Amanda or even perhaps yourself to ignore certain scriptures on the local church.

    But scripture must interpret scripture. If we have a scripture saying that the Holy Spirit will guide us into all truth and another saying we must not neglect meeting together, we must reconcile the two and not throw away the latter one because it is inconvenient for us. I’m sure you agree – we must be doers of the Word, not just hearers.

    ““when you read McLaren, when you read Rick Warren, when you read Rick Joyner, when you read whatever you read, do you also “advice” them which translations to use, seen I often find them using a translation that’s not actually a Bible, namely “the Message”?””

    I don’t know any of these people personally, so I can’t ‘advise’ them. But if they quote out of a different translation that I’m unfamiliar with then I check it up, I study it, I check it out, AND I speak to my pastor about it all WHILE praying about it and believing that Jesus will guide me into all truth.

    “Ever heard of the Holy Spirit who convicts, teaches, guides into all truth …. etc. Ryan? I don’t have to have a mere sinful human being telling me I’m wrong. Come quiet times with my Lord and Savior, He speaks to me by His Holy Spirit and His Word. Not just of what I did wrong … but also where I am doing well …. Where will I find a person who knows exactly what I meant when I said or done something, Ryan? Do you submit all your entries here to the one your are accountable to?”

    Yes, my pastor is able to see all my correspondence. You could even call him directly if you had an issue with something I say.

    Yes, God speaks to me too through His Holy Spirit and His Word. May I be so bold as to suggest you ask Him then what He has to say about local church?

    Then again, since you say you do go to a local church then I don’t see why we should argue about it. I’d be interested in hearing if Amanda and DTW go to a local church too, though.

    “I don’t have to have a mere sinful human being telling me I’m wrong.”

    But get at what you’re saying here – you’re also a sinful human being. What makes you so confident that you can hear what the Holy Spirit is saying ‘better’ than a pastor or another sinful human being?

    Am I saying they can hear better than you? No, I’m not saying that either. But I AM saying that why do you think you can hear better than them at what God is telling you? You could be selectively hearing what God is saying based on your own subjective feelings, whereas a pastor could tell you what God is saying based on an objective viewpoint.

    I don’t know about you, but I find it incredibly easy to justify a sin when I’m doing it. It often takes a pastor or friend to slap me over the head and remind me that God would not possibly justify that sin – that actually I’m not listening to Him.

    Are you truly THAT able to hear so clearly from God without your own justifications and beliefs clouding what He is saying? Ever? If you are, wow. Glad to finally meet a sinless human being…

  • Amanda

    Ryan Peter

    Look, you guys can continue ignoring scripture

    Ha. Ha. Ha.

    How do I know you’re not teaching me lies at your website DTW?

    Correct. You do not have any way of knowing if DTW is teaching lies. That is very sad.

    Christians have fled the liberal church and the purpose driven church and the emergent church, not because we deny Scripture, but because we hold to Scripture and they don’t. Do you not know what Spurgeon did with the downgrade controversy?

    We know your brand of accountability only to well. You have come onto this blog and rebuked us, yet you defended Nic Paton’s ‘poetry’! Come on! We have seen this before. This is exactly what happens in the ‘local church’ under hirelings.

    Ryan, how the ‘blessed subtractions’ follow Scripture to be part of the church, is no longer your concern. Know this, we will not submit to the yoke of the illegitimate church. We will not emerge into the unknowing. We will also not ubuntu.

  • cecilia

    let me ask you something Peter (i mean Ryan):

    if a person is in “a local church” – where is this “local church”.

    and if I feel led by God’s Spirit NOT to be in this “local church”, and go to a church in another area, then I’m not at the “local church”, yes? so where do you put me then? in the box of the “universal church”?

    way back your emphasis was on the “local church” and “the universal church”. then you shift your focus to “accountability”. so which must we answer. choose one and let’s end it nicely off and then go on to the other?

    and because I said that, I’m not gonna go on to accountability now. You have questions to answer please, before you move on to accountability…
    cecilia

  • Michael Anthony

    Ryan,

    Your argument is becoming repetitive and frankly even obsessive. I pointed out circular reasoning in the previous post – please take a deep breathe and think about what that actually means – it seems you may have reached dizziness from spinning the same Eisegesis. In fact you are not far from becoming a ‘local-church-only’ legalist.

    Eisegesis (from the Greek root εις, meaning into, in, among) is the process of misinterpreting a text in such a way that it introduces one’s own ideas, reading into the text. This is best understood when contrasted with exegesis. While exegesis draws out the meaning from the text, eisegesis occurs when a reader reads his/her interpretation into the text.

    Let me give some insight:

    Not a week goes by without me hearing of Christians walking away from their local church because the pastor has introduced extra-biblical or non-biblical ideas or subtle forms of heresy or even associated that ministry with very questionable – let’s just call it associations. It is normally the mature Christians that spot this first. Younger Christians are more vulnerable. We are living in the time of the great apostasy – if you are in a sound church that uses sound expository teaching and the worship does not de-personalize, humanize or effeminise God but is based on a true fear of God then thank our Lord everyday.

    I am a BIG BELEIVER in the local church but I don’t switch off my mind as to how quickly a local church can be infiltrated and the fellowship compromised. We fight a constant battle to preserve true biblical standards in our churches.
    But what if the church must go underground? The single biggest move right now is people meeting in home churches because they have left the compromised local churches. I submit to you that Jesus Christ is able to preserve and keep his church in this hour of apostasy. I will never put submission to a church above submission to the truth, the truth is not a ‘it’, it is a person – Jesus Christ our Lord.

    Insinuating the administrator of this blog could be a leader of a cult is disrespectful to the favour (not entitlement) she has offered you in sharing your opinion.

    I wish you would stop treating fellow believers as the enemy and go chew on some other bone (of contention).

  • Amanda

    Ryan Peter

    You are offended by what we say against the emerged ones and you are digging for a way to stop us. True or false?

  • Discerning the World

    Oh..ok then, carry on…it would appear you would make any excuse unders the sun to not obey God.

  • Discerning the World

    Ryan Peter

    Diversions, diversions, diversions. Think I am just gonna called Ryan ‘master at diversion’ Peter

    I’ve had enough. Go cry on the guys at EmergingAfrica’s shoulders. I can’t take having to repeat myself over and over and over again. If your only little complaint is that YOU THINK we are not acountable to anyone (just remember this is what you think and not what you actually know) then please take your little bag, put Pooh Bear inside and take a long walk off a short plank.

    No really. Enough is enough. Since you first started comenting on this blog (and the old one) the key issue has been about Repentance of Sin and you still 2 months later or more refuse to answer this question. This is a major sore thumb for all new age Christians because repentance of sin and living a LIFE the way God COMMANDS YOU is impossible hence Brian Mc Laren says that evreything must change. The gospel needs to change so that mankind can sin and not feel like they have done anything wrong.

    Well I had no idea Emergents could lay down a better plan than Jesus Christ. Apparently every born again Christian since 2000 ago has had it all wrong. wow…

    Ryan

    >> Consider how your problem with accountability works against you. How do I know you’re not teaching me lies at your website DTW?

    I thought you had a bible that teaches you? I’m confused.

    >> What assures me you’re not trying to be some leader of a cult, without being accountable to anyone anywhere?

    Ryan, you know what, you are genuinely not a nice person. Cult leaders usually make ever effort to keep their sheep captive with false teaching and they insist on accountability to men and not Jesus Christ – for apparently men seem to be stonger in this regard. Well I shall hold you captive no more on this blog (removes virtual chains). Now please in a very nice voice I request that you go to EmergingAfrica or any other place you feel confortable where Jesus and Satan are welcome at the same time and snuggle in there.

    You think your issue is church accountability, It’s not. It’s that you follow after people, emergent teachers who mock, insult and riducule Jesus Christ, they tear out the pages of the bible one by one. And you think this is funny, you laugh. This is the ISSUE Ryan, that you speak like a Christian but inbetween say things that make your ‘authenticity’ of being a Christian null and void. You are fake. You can’t have your cake and eat it. You can’t be on Jesus’s side and on Satan’s side at the same time.

    >> I don’t insinuate DTW is a leader of a cult, I’m making an extreme example to show forth my case – that when anyone claims ‘I don’t need accountability’ they are actually claiming ‘I am infallible’

    Disgusting. The Word of God is Infallable. I am accountable to fellow believers in Jesus Christ and to God through Jesus Christ himself. I’m just not part of YOUR group because you speak blasphemies against Jesus Christ and His Saints. You insult Jesus Christ with the people you choose to follow as ‘mentors’, you insult Jesus Christ with downright lies that come out of your mouth, you insult the TRUE body of Christ by lambasting us with names and cry hatespeech when you don’t like what you hear but we are supposed to tolerate your beguiling attitude towards us disguised under a word called ‘love’?

    Anyhow, that was the long version of GOOD BYE. You are fee however to come back here and read the gospel of Jesus Christ where the message never alters, where the gospel does not need to change in any way or form since Jesus walked this earth. You are no longer welcome to comment.

  • @ Michael,

    Thank you for your frankness and kind rebuke. I admit that I’m getting quite impassioned, but DTW asked me to be honest and I have been to this point as best I can be.

    I admit that circular reasoning is a problem and I understand the difference between eisegesis and exegesis. I also somehow missed your earlier posts for which I apologise.

    I’ve got no issues with a house church but DTW has not actually ever (in previous correspondence as well) ever answered me directly as to whether she goes to any type of church at all (even a house church) and Amanda has only defended my statements in a way that makes me assume that she doesn’t go to any local church at all either (DTW’s defence makes me believe the same thing). Cecilia has admitted that she does, but I am yet to answer her other questions, which I will do in time.

    The problem with this is that neither I, DTW, Amanda, Cecilia or you are infallible. Neither are pastors. But I’ve seen way too many Christians claim ‘I don’t need church’ and then veer off on all sorts of strange paths. They can also become over-judgemental of all Christians and honestly have an attitude that they are infallible in their interpretation of the scriptures.

    I don’t insinuate DTW is a leader of a cult, I’m making an extreme example to show forth my case – that when anyone claims ‘I don’t need accountability’ they are actually claiming ‘I am infallible’.

    If I say “go to church” people immediately assume I mean “go to the institution down the road.” No, that’s not what I mean. The problem is that people assume that I may mean something about a simple word like ‘church’ because of their own history.

    I am not treating fellow believers as the enemy. In fact, I would call DTW and Amanda and Cecilia fellow believers but I suspect they wouldn’t call me the same. My heart is not to attack. If DTW is not linked in with any church (not an institution) and has no accountability she is in a dangerous position and I have a heart to see both truth and relationships championed at the same time, with truth not being watered down but with relationships used to bring people into the truth. This is why I’m passionate about local church, too.

    I will rest the argument, except to only answer Cecilia and others’ questions. At the same time, I will trust the Holy Spirit to convict where conviction must take place and no longer labour the point.

    Thank you again,

  • @ DTW
    Since you first started comenting on this blog (and the old one) the key issue has been about Repentance of Sin and you still 2 months later or more refuse to answer this question.

    I answered this question in an earlier post which I see has not gone live or somehow lost in the system. I said I have no disagreement with you on this. I’m all for repentance of sin, by your definition. My original answer was more comprehensive and i’ll paste it when I get home.

  • Michael Anthony

    DTW,

    If the bible thumping accountability police tells the church WE MUST do this and WE MUST do that then it sounds like the LAW.

    If Christians MUST be accountable (without exception) to a local church it is like 3 wolves and 1 sheep voting on what they are going to have for supper.

    As Chris Roseborough says – living in lala, I mean LAW-LAW land.

    We are not accountable to anyone because we are under any law or forced to do so; we choose to be accountable to one another because of who we are in Christ and because his law is written in our hearts. Because of this liberty we have we are not compelled to be subservient to false teachers or their teachings. We are by our NEW NATURE inclined to fellowship with other TRUE believers and be submitted to one another (that would be true believers again) by our new nature because of WHO we are. It’s called Grace.

    (but no doubt it is us hyper- fundamentalists (I read that horribly unbalanced, badly exegeted hubris Ryan calls an article on his blog) that will be accused of being enslaved to the LAW.)

    Pot, kettle, black.

  • Michael Anthony

    Sorry about this – after reading a post here – another word on the debating tactics being used here;

    Circular Reasoning (Circulus in Demonstrando)

    Support a chain of arguments by the arguments it contains, as in:
    “The Bible is true because it is written by God. The Bible tells us how God wrote the Bible. God doesn’t lie, as the Bible tells us, so He wouldn’t write a book that is false, would he?”

    Or,

    “Smoking marijuana is bad because it is against the law.
    Smoking marijuana is against the law because it is bad.”

    No, the bible is true because ie the 100% accuracy in the prophetic – verifiable and authenticated. The bible is true because Jesus is who is said he was and he proved this by raising from the dead on the 3rd day (and proving it it to witnsesses). Very different premise.

  • Discerning the World

    Michael

    >> We are not accountable to anyone because we are under any law or forced to do so; we choose to be accountable to one another because of who we are in Christ and because his law is written in our hearts. Because of this liberty we have we are not compelled to be subservient to false teachers or their teachings. We are by our NEW NATURE inclined to fellowship with other TRUE believers and be submitted to one another (that would be true believers again) by our new nature because of WHO we are. It’s called Grace.

    Exactly!!

  • Discerning the World

    Ryan

    >> answered this question in an earlier post which I see has not gone live or somehow lost in the system

    I am not even going to respond to this…. ok gosh I just repsonded.

  • Michael Anthony

    Ryan,

    Thank you for the reply but after reading your blog and subsequent articles I don’t think you actually understand or appreciate the purpose of this blog and have some pretty scathing comments which I think are unfounded.

    This blog is no more than a warning of the times we live in (as scripture warns) and showing other Christians where the errors lie (as scripture warns again). We actually discern for one another, it’s not a one/woman man show. Appreciate the blog for what it is, full stop. It is a thankless job.

    And by the way – discernment is not an ‘intuition’ or ‘feeling’. If anyone thinks it is they dont have it – discernment is rightly dividing the word of truth by the word of God. Although we are led of the Spirit and even has young Christians can have a check that something just aint right it is not until we grow in knowledge of the word that we can articulate it with more biblical acuracy.

    The gift of discerning of spirits is in the context of prophecy, I am a partial cessationist (beleive in the gifts for the body ala 1 Cor but don’t beleive in modern day apostles, apostolic authority was to write scripture etc). Discernment is not a ‘gift’ – it is a command – otherwise only some believers would have this ‘gift’.

    All believers MUST excercise discernment.

  • Discerning the World

    Michael

    Indeed, I have always said that every born again Christian can discern. It’s not something you are taught, it’s not a feeling or intuition as said, it’s 100% completely Holy Spirit and where do we get the Holy Spirit from? When we are truly born again.

    I believe that the Word of God once written became the final authority, the last word on all matters that we need to know about. Nothing to be added or taken away. Notice what happens when things are added or taken away – one dot, one tittle and the entire message changes.

    The Holy Spirit is the one who convicts me daily, He guides me and councels me. I have fellowship with genuine Christians and we check eachother to make sue we are not going off the track. It is the most wonderful thing having born again Christians to fellowship with. For within each of them there is genuine love and you know when you ask them a seriuos question you are going to get a serious answer back.

    Also this whole thing about how we read scripture is someting I want to get just out of the way:

    It’s read in a literal, contextual and spiritual manner and without the Holy Spirit no one will never understand. In other words, if someone in not truly saved they will never understand scripture. (point taken re: word of faith, new apostolic, etc)

    This is why a group of emergents can all sit in a room together and each one will have their own meaning of what a verse means because there is no Holy Spirit anywhere in any one of them. How tragic is that? All seeking God but looking in all the wrong places. God says don’t follow after teachers who speak a message that opposse his Word and that is exactly what they do. God says do not tolerate wickedness and that is exactly what they do. God says do not bow to other gods and that is exactly what they do, Satan in the garden of Eden said to man, you will be gods and that is exactly where they are going.

    It saddens me that people can be so blind as to what they are following. Jesus Christ saved me from 17 years in the occult and I hold onto Him for dear life. Today Christians are diving in head first, but it’s not what they think it is.

    These ‘Leaders’ are so smart, they have a new way of saying things. Like “climbing the transformational ladder” is explained differently in the book: New Age speak for dummies 101 for it means: “Kabbalah Tree of Life where each Chakra is a god or goddess in you”.

    It’s like spraying deodorant over your clothes but it does not really cover the stench from smoking. “take off the old ones lenses and see through new eyes.” explained from the New Age speak for dummies 101 means, once you have ascended to the 6th Chakra, an open and balanced Third Eye Chakra allows us to look beyond our own issues to see a more complete, ‘enlightened’ picture of reality. We become aware of the motivation behind our actions. We may experience extra sensory perception (ESP), inner sound and clairvoyance.

    Ah well….all I can do is warn, I do not saved peple. The Holy Spirit is the one who does this. I do God’s work to warn, and I will not stop until such time that I am with Jesus Himself.

    PS, no book called “New Age speak for dummies 101” even if there was it out not help people see the truth. Only because THEY DONT WANT TO SEE THE TRUTH. They want their own pathway of new age rightenoussness.

  • cecilia

    seen that Ryan so faithfully question me on and on, it’s only right that I answer.

    RYAN!! Your very first question to me was: Ryan Peter – October 12th, 2009 at 3:26 am
    Hi Cecilia, out of interest – do you go to a local church of any sort?

    It seems I’m even better organized than you – it might help if you don’t fall around so much, trying to proof so many things altogether in one breath ….

    Mmmm and yes, you didn’t post a comment on emergingafrica.info/blog yet … I’m kinda eager to know how you would react to that post.

    “the women thing” means that you tend to go off against women who speak out strongly of what they believe in.

    ““Why are you trying to force “CHURCIANITY” down on us all? Because we dare to differ from your “easy to understand structures”?
    Ag nee Cecilia, so we differ from how we read these scriptures? Okay. But Roger differs to you guys on how he reads scriptures– but that’s not okay? You can’t have your cake and eat it too. “

    >>> again you sidestep the question. I SAID “WE DARE TO DIFFER FROM YOUR ‘EASY TO UNDERSTAND’ STRUCTURES” not aiming at the Word of God, but at the “local and universal church” line of thinking you were exploring ! AND YOU KNOW THAT RYAN!

    “Plus you haven’t said a stitch about how you DO read these scriptures, which I’m interested in hearing.”
    >>> told you here: October 15th, 2009 at 3:16 am why I won’t go into that at that stage.

    “I don’t know any of these people personally, so I can’t ‘advise’ them.”
    >>>> you really can’t say you know me, yet you ‘adviced’ me, and I did not even ask for it.

    “Do you submit all your entries here to the one your are accountable to?”
    Yes, my pastor is able to see all my correspondence.”
    >>> ag kom nou Ryan, I asked DO YOU SUBMIT IT…. Oh boy, maybe I should write in Afrikaans, maar op hierdie blog sal dit nogals ‘n hele ding wees om te quote in Engels en te comment in Afrikaans, en nie almal sal verstaan nie…

    “Yes, God speaks to me too through His Holy Spirit and His Word. May I be so bold as to suggest you ask Him then what He has to say about local church?”
    >>>NO, you may NOT be so bold! you should restrain from talking so much.. resolve one thing at a time…

    Oh let me for once get this out so maybe your mind can be at peace: I go to a church that is NOT local. I believe The Scriptures are true.

    If on any given point you’ve said something that’s not worth refuting, it means – there’s nothing to fuzz over. therefore I won’t comment on it, not even if you try to wring sanddust from a wet towel!

    “what makes you so confident that you can hear what the Holy Spirit is saying ‘better’ than a pastor or another sinful human being?”
    >>> not what Ryan, WHO. believe it or not Ryan, my personal walk with the Lord God. Holy Spirit convicts me, I repent, get forgiveness, learn from it, move on.

    “But I AM saying that Why Do You Think You Can Hear Better Than Them at what God is telling you?”
    >>>> where exactly did I say that, Ryan? (give it to me word for word, not the way you choose to interpret it).

    whom will you trust more Ryan – the pastor to whom you can tell a white lie to make it more justifiable? OR your God whom you say you serve, before Whom you stand open and bare, and where you dare not try to justify yourself?

    we reason SOOOO much, we reason God out of everything!

    “I don’t know about you, but I find it incredibly easy to justify a sin when I’m doing it.”
    >>> yeah you’re so right – YOU DON’T KNOW ABOUT ME… being within a ministry where I speak to people who come to me for help, I can’t afford to give un-truths or half-truths to the people, not if some of them is in a spot of turning around and commit suicide. I DON’T JUSTIFY SIN … had in the past, not any more. No physical abuse necessary to get me to the point of listening to the Holy Spirit’s voice. The last time I tried justifying something that was not correct, I landed up in emergency room for 1 night. So Ryan, I don’t try tricks on God anymore… I think it’s the “fear of God”, the awe of the truth of WHO HE is, totally out of submission to HIM and HIS WILL 4 and in my life

    … I tend just to obey, even if e.g. driving along peacefully, all planned and Holy Spirit says “take this road, it’s further, but saver” – I don’t question, I do … I’ve learned I will carry the consequences if I don’t listen carefully …

    If and when I falter, or don’t know everything, God gave me wonderful friends who walk alongside me on this narrow way … but they won’t always be there, neither me …. As for that much Ryan, If all the pastors you rely on is taken away in the blink of an eye, where will you run to?

    “without your own justifications and beliefs clouding”
    >>> I don’t totally get what you’re trying to say….. maybe please translate in Afrikaans?

    “Glad to finally meet a sinless human being…”
    komaan Ryan! My pa het altyd gesê sarkasme is die begin van ‘n verrotte brein. Sarcasm is not your answer Ryan.

    It’s not my own justification (PLEASE NOTE: I DON’t BELIEVE THERE ARE JUSTIFICATIONS)

    Romans 5 vs 1Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:
    2By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

    ONLY THE WORK OF JESUS CHRIST (and NO works that I do in life) can justify me from sin. My ‘task’ is to believe that when I acknowledge+confess (repent) of my sin, I am the righteousness of Christ in God (in right standing with God), therefore justified by faith and not by no works of my own.

    PLEASE RYAN – DON’t be sarcastic about these things! You don’t know what other people went through in their lives. I for one will never out of my own, turn back on the sin-road. The price paid for me, was too dearly.. I can’t throw that back in the Face of Jesus Christ, my Lord and Savior! How about you?

    Just for the truth thereof – I DID NOT EVEN READ ALL THE OTHER COMMENTS before I started to type my comment. I hope I can still place this to Ryan even though other comments touched the same subject? Thanks!

    DTW – let’s keep standing!
    cecilia

    I took time to read through the above comments. One more comments please If you’d be so gracious to allow me?

    RYAN said: “If DTW is not linked in with any church (not an institution) and has no accountability she is in a dangerous position ”
    >>> bla bla bla … oh please Ryan, stop this evil talk at this moment! You’re NOT very gracious, you’re disrespectful – writing to the readers of this blog as if they are little children who know nothing.

    If we don’t share EVERYTHING with you, why don’t you just except it and let it go? and please STOP READING INTO other people’s words and lives, you lost so much time running in circles all the time….

    cecilia

  • Hi everyone,

    Honestly, I’m grateful for all your responses here. At last I can actually hear your heart on these issues and am sorry for being as blunt aggressive as I have been.

    DTW, my earlier post about repentance of sin has gone live now, I see, which should answer your question on that.

    Cecilia, you are right in saying “DON’t be sarcastic about these things! You don’t know what other people went through in their lives. I for one will never out of my own, turn back on the sin-road. The price paid for me, was too dearly.. I can’t throw that back in the Face of Jesus Christ, my Lord and Savior! How about you?”

    I am grateful for this comment. It rings entirely true. I have been disrespectful to this end and apologise.

    Michael Anthony, my scathing comments about this blog certainly indicate that I misunderstand what the blog is here for. My initial impressions of it have been that it is a little extreme. But at the same time am beginning to appreciate it in a unique way.

    I’ve been touched by the grace and manner in which Whitefield and Wesley disagreed (read the letter at Spurgeon’s archives at http://www.spurgeon.org/~phil/wesley.htm). We should aim for a similar graceful way of communicating between us all.

    Cecilia, if there are any questions you would still like me to answer please let me know. I know you were somewhat upset with me for not answering them all directly.

    Thank you all,
    Ryan

  • Discerning the World

    Ryan

    Gee whiskers, another disguised ‘understanding, love, forgive me’ comment, it just does not end Ryan. I love the ‘how about you’ sneaky question at the end of your sentence to Cecilia. She is not the one following false teaching Ryan. And throwing Spurgeon into the mix to try and make like you are ‘only now actually hearing our hearts on these issues’? Oh pulease… Do you know when I will take you seriously? When you admit you follow another gospel to that of what is written in the Word of God. Currently you are lying to God and yourself. In fact you can’t even stand for what you actually believe, even if it is false. It’s ridiculous. You can try fool everyone around you, but you do not fool God.

  • Michael Anthony

    Ryan,

    Judging by your debating strategy you have lost at lot of credibility.

    Let me outline your debating tactics.

    You use a false premise that unless one is accountable to someone else they are in rebellion (although you never stated it like that, it is the inevitable deduction) – then you use forceful tactics (circular reasoning) to wear your opponent down until that opponent says something spur-of-the-moment-reactive like ‘I don’t need to be accountable to anyone’ (although it did not get this far). Then the opponent is discredited and likened to Jim Jones or David Koresh. (I read your blog) and the inevitable cult insinuations.

    The problem is the above mentioned false premise is that is inevitable follow on is ‘now that we have established that (without actually having established anything) we can conclude that…’ meaning that your opponent is seemingly admitting guilt (without actually admitting to anything) to an invalid charge that is not supported by a correct exegesis of scripture.

    Quoting scripture means nothing – Satan himself surrounds you with scripture throws it at you hard and fast. And he uses similar tactics to accuse the brethren.

    If you are really repentant please have a long hard look at what your intentions really are.

    You may of course, not see it this way. I cannot judge motive or intentions but I can do the math.

  • Amanda

    Pooh Bear

    Just because he disagrees with you doesn’t mean he’s not a fellow believer does it?

    No, it does not.

    When he defends Nic Paton and his other, trickster “Jesus”, it does. He can still repent, but until such time, I do not consider him to be a Christian.

    Ryan Peter on Satan the Trickster:

    A Christian is someone who believes IN JESUS, even though they might believe some wrong things about the Bible or Scriptures.

    My point is that, whether you like it or not, both Nic and and you, Deborah, believe in Jesus and you both have no choice but to love each other, as per Christ’s command. A Christian is not distinguished necessarily by WHAT they believe or HOW they talk, but whether or not they believe in Jesus. This is the bottom line. Entire generations lived under Catholic rule and didn’t know better, doing all sorts of things I’m sure you would deem heretical. Yet they were still Christians and still saved, because it’s about believing in Jesus (unless you want to relegate generations of people to hell because their theology was off, even though they most certainly believed in Jesus for their salvation!).

    So, Deborah, you might want to polarize yourself from Emergents in such an extreme way but you are actually not following a Biblical principle from doing so. I, myself, am not emergent (nor fundamentalist) but if you believe in Jesus and I believe in Jesus I have to love you whether I like it or not. You need to do the same with Nic, and he to you.

    More directly, I think your misunderstandings are around language and use of words. Nic likes metaphor and poetry. You’re taking his use of the word ‘trickster’ and projecting your own meaning of what that means over Nic’s post.

  • @ Amanda,

    With regards to my quote above, do you think that generations under catholic rule who had dodgy theology without even knowing they had dodgy theology, given that they were in a system that didn’t allow them to think differently, will go to hell?

  • Amanda

    Ryan Peter

    Yes.

  • cecilia

    you’re side-stepping again Ryan!
    cecilia

Leave a Reply

You can use these HTML tags

<a href="" title=""> <abbr title=""> <acronym title=""> <b> <blockquote cite=""> <cite> <code> <del datetime=""> <em> <i> <q cite=""> <s> <strike> <strong>

  

  

  

Terms and Conditions for Submission of Comments

How far is too far in the Emerging Church

Terms and Conditions:terms and conditions

Because this world is becoming more evil by the minute and Discerning the World is coming under attack more often from people with some very nasty dispositions, we now have ‘Terms and Conditions for Submission of Comments‘ which you need to agree too before you can comment – this is to protect us and you when you comment on this website.  If you are not here to harm Discerning the World and it’s authors, please by all means comment, however if you are here to cause harm in any way, please don’t comment.

The following conditions does not mean that the authors of Discerning The World permit only opinions that are in agreement with us. This also does not mean that we fear dissenting opinions or ideas that are contrary to the beliefs that we hold (and/or that of the revealed Scriptures of the Holy Bible).

The following describes the Terms and Conditions applicable to your use of the “Comments” submission service at the Discerning the World website.

BY CLICKING THE “POST COMMENT” BUTTON FOR YOUR COMMENT, YOU AGREE TO BE BOUND BY THESE TERMS AND CONDITIONS AND ABIDE BY ALL OF THE RULES AND POLICIES SET FORTH HEREIN. IF YOU DO NOT AGREE TO THESE TERMS AND CONDITIONS, DO NOT SUBMIT YOUR COMMENT TO DISCERNING THE WORLD WEB SITE.

  1. Discerning the World owns and operates the DiscerningtheWorld.com site (the “Site”). Your use of the features on the Site allowing for submission of a “Comment” is subject to the following terms and conditions (the “Terms”). Discerning the World may modify these Terms at any time without notice to you by posting revised Terms on the Site. Your submission of a “Comment” to the Site following the modification of these Terms shall constitute your binding acceptance of and agreement to be bound by those modified Terms.
  2. By submitting a “Comment” you are accepting these Terms through your clicking of the “POST COMMENT” button.
  3. Discerning the World has the right, but not the obligation, to take any of the following actions, in Discerning the World’s sole unfettered discretion, at any time, and for any reason or no reason, without providing any prior notice:
    1. Restrict, suspend or terminate your ability to submit “Comments,” to the Site;
    2. Change, suspend or modify all or any part of the Site or the features thereof;
    3. Refuse or remove any material posted on, submitted to or communicated through the Site by you;
    4. Deactivate or delete any screen names, profiles or other information associated with you; or
    5. Alter, modify, discontinue or remove any comment off the Site.
  4. You agree that, when using or accessing the Site or any of the features thereof, you will not:
    1. Violate any applicable law or regulation;
    2. Interfere with or damage the Site, through hacking or any other means;
    3. Transmit or introduce to the Site or to other users thereof any viruses, cancel bots, Trojan horses, flood pings, denial of service attacks, or any other harmful code or processes;
    4. Transmit or submit harmful, threatening, abusive, harassing, defamatory, deceptive, fraudulent, obscene, indecent, vulgar, lewd, violent, hateful or otherwise objectionable content or material;
    5. Transmit or submit any unsolicited advertising, promotional materials, or spam;
    6. Stalk or harass any user or visitor to the Site; or
    7. Use the content or information available on the Site for any improper purpose.
  5. You retain the Copyright of any “Comment” you submit to Discerning the World. By submitting a “Comment” to Discerning the World, you agree to grant Discerning the World a irrevocable, non-exclusive, royalty-free, perpetual license to use the material or commentary that you have submitted, in any medium and in any manner that Discerning the World may, in its sole unfettered discretion, choose.
  6. By submitting a “Comment” to Discerning the World, you agree to comply with the following rules concerning such submissions:
    1.  You agree not to include in your “Comment”:
      1. Any false, defamatory, libelous, abusive, threatening, racially offensive, sexually explicit, obscene, harmful, vulgar, hateful, illegal, or otherwise objectionable content;
      2. Any content that may be seen as stalking or harassing of any other Site contributors;
      3. Any content that personally attacks an individual. (An example of a personal attack is posting negative comments about an individual in a way meant to demean that person. Note that posting your opinion about someone’s ideas, doctrine or actions is not a personal attack);
      4. Any content that discloses private details concerning any person, for eg., phone numbers that have not been made public, photos that are not in the public domain, residential address that is not public, ID numbers, Social Security numbers, email addresses that are not in the public domain, etc.;
      5. Any content that you know to be false, misleading, or fraudulent;
      6. Any use of profanity;
      7. Any content including advertisements or otherwise focused on the promotion of commercial events or businesses, or any request for or solicitation of money, goods, or services for private gain;
      8. Any content that contains software viruses or any other computer code, files or programs designed to interrupt, destroy or limit the functionality of any computer software or hardware or telecommunications equipment; or
      9. Any content directly or indirectly soliciting responses from minors (defined as anyone under 18 years of age).
  7. FAIR USE NOTICE:
    1. If any part of the “Comment” is not your original work, it is your responsibility to add the name of the third party, name the book with page number or a link (url) to the website where you obtained the information.
    2. Your “Comment” may contain Copyrighted material, the use of which has not always been specifically authorized by the copyright owner. You are however allowed to make such material available in your “Comment” in an effort to advance understanding of environmental, political, human rights, economic, democracy, scientific, and social justice issues, etc.  This constitutes a ‘fair use’ of any such copyrighted material as provided for in section 107 of the US Copyright Law. In accordance with Title 17 U.S.C. Section 107, the material on this Site is distributed without profit to those who have expressed a prior interest in receiving the included information for research and educational purposes. For more information go to:http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/17/107.shtml.
    3. If you wish to use copyrighted material from a website or any other medium for purposes to add to your “Comment” that go beyond ‘fair use’, you must obtain permission from the copyright owner. (Fair Use means you may quote from copyrighted sources, but you may not publish the whole article, book, etc., in your “Comment”.)
  8. You are solely responsible for the “Comment” you upload, post, transmit or otherwise make available to others using this Web Site. Under no circumstances will Discerning the World be liable in any way for any “Comment” posted on or made available through this Site by you or any third party.
  9. You understand that all “Comments” on this Site are pre-screened or moderated. That means that every “Comment” needs to be approved by Discerning the World before it appears in the “Comments” section.  This is not an automatic process.  Discerning the World does this for SPAM reasons.
  10. Discerning the World has the right (but not the obligation) in their sole unfettered discretion to remove any “Comment” that is posted on or available through the Site. Without limiting the foregoing, Discerning the World has the right to remove any “Comment” that violates these Terms or is otherwise deemed objectionable by Discerning the World in its sole discretion.
  11. You understand that Discerning the World in their sole unfettered discretion is not obligated and can not be forced in any manner, be it legal or otherwise to remove any “Comment” that is posted on or made available through the Site by you.
  12. When submitting a “Comment,” you will be asked to provide your name and your email address. While Discerning the World does not object to your use of a pseudonym instead of your actual name, Discerning the World reserves the right, but not the obligation, to reject, change, disallow, or discontinue at any time any submission name that, in Discerning the World’s sole unfettered discretion, is objectionable or inappropriate for any reason. Discerning the World requires the submission of your email address, but Discerning the World warrants that it will not publish your email address to an outside third party without your consent.
  13. Discerning the World does not sell or rent your personal information to third parties for their marketing purposes. From time to time, Discerning the World may contact you personally via email. Notwithstanding the foregoing, you acknowledge and understand that the “Comments” feature of the Site is designed to permit users to post information and commentary for public review and comment and thus you hereby waive any expectation of privacy you may have concerning any likeness or information provided to the Site by you.
  14. You are solely responsible for your interactions with other users of or visitors to the Site.
    1. Discerning the World shall have the right, but not the obligation, to monitor interactions utilizing the “Comments” facility of the Site, between you and other users of or visitors to the Site. You acknowledge and agree that Discerning the World, or any third party shall not be, and you shall not seek to hold them, responsible for any harm or damage whatsoever arising in connection with your interaction with other users of or visitors to the Site.
    2. Discerning the World does not verify any information posted to or communicated via the “Comments” sections of the Site by users and does not guarantee the proper use of such information by any party who may have access to the information. You acknowledge and agree that Discerning the World does not assume, and shall not have, any responsibility for the content of messages or other communications sent or received by users of the Site.
  15. The Site contains content created by or on behalf of Discerning the World as well as content provided by third parties.
    1. Discerning the World does not control, and makes no representations or warranties about, any third party content, including such content that may be accessible directly on the Site or through links from the Site to third party sites.
    2. You acknowledge that, by viewing the Site or communications transmitted through the Site, you may be exposed to third party content that is false, offensive or otherwise objectionable to you or others, and you agree that under no circumstances shall Discerning the World be liable in any way, under any theory, for any third party content.
    3. You acknowledge and agree that the Site, and the contents thereof, is proprietary to Discerning the World and is protected by copyright. You agree that you will not access or use the Site or any of the content thereof for any reason or purpose other than your personal, non-commercial use.
    4. You agree that you will not systematically retrieve data or other content from the Site by any means, and you will not compile a database or directory of information extracted from the Site.
    5. You agree that you will not reproduce, distribute or make derivative works of the Site or any of the contents thereof without the express consent of Discerning the World.
    6. You hereby agree to indemnify, defend and hold harmless Discerning the World, its affiliates and licensees, and all of their officers, directors, employees, agents and representatives from and against any and all liabilities, losses, claims, damages, and expenses (including attorneys’ fees) in connection with any claim arising out of your use of the Site or violation of any of these Terms.

DISCLAIMER OF WARRANTY/LIMITATION OF LIABILITY.

  • YOU EXPRESSLY AGREE THAT USE OF THE SITE IS AT YOUR SOLE RISK. NEITHER DISCERNING THE WORLD, ITS AFFILIATES, NOR ANY OF THEIR RESPECTIVE EMPLOYEES, AGENTS, OR LICENSORS WARRANT THAT THE SITE WILL BE UNINTERRUPTED, TIMELY, SECURE OR ERROR FREE.
  • THE SITE IS PROVIDED ON AN “AS IS” BASIS WITHOUT WARRANTIES OF ANY KIND, EITHER EXPRESS OR IMPLIED, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO WARRANTIES OF TITLE OR IMLPLIED WARRANTIES OF MERCHANTABILITY OR FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE.
  • THIS DISCLAIMER OF LIABILITY APPLIES TO ANY DAMAGES OR INJURY CAUSED BY ANY FAILURE OF PERFORMANCE, ERROR, OMISSION, INTERRUPTION, DELETION, DEFECT, DELAY, COMMUNICATION LINE FAILURE, THEFT OR DESTRUCTION OR UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO, ALTERATION OF OR USE, WHETHER FOR BREACH OF CONTRACT, TORTIOUS BEHAVIOR, NEGLIGENCE OR UNDER ANY OTHER CAUSE OF ACTION. YOU SPECIFICALLY ACKNOWLEDGE AND AGREE THAT DISCERNING THE WORLD SHALL NOT BE LIABLE FOR THE DEFAMATORY, OFFENSIVE OR ILLEGAL CONDUCT OF USERS OF THE SITE OR THIRD PARTIES, AND THAT THE RISK OF INJURY FROM THE FOREGOING RESTS ENTIRELY WITH THE YOU THE COMMENTER.
  • IN NO EVENT WILL DISCERNING THE WORLD, ITS AFFILIATES OR ANY OF THEIR RESPECTIVE EMPLOYEES, AGENTS OR LICENSORS BE LIABLE FOR ANY DAMAGES, INCLUDING WITHOUT LIMITATION DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR PUNITIVE DAMAGES, EVEN IF THEY HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES, ARISING FROM, RELATING TO OR CONNECTED WITH THE USE OR INABILITY TO USE THE SITE OR ANY OTHER MATTER ARISING FROM, RELATING TO OR CONNECTED WITH THE SITE OR THESE TERMS.

16. These Terms constitute the entire agreement between Discerning the World and you with respect to the subject matter hereof, and supersede any previous oral or written agreement between us with respect to such subject matter.

Thank you!