Nic Paton from (soundandsilence.wordpress.com) has this thing about being credited for his work, his thoughts, his beliefs. He has been making comments on my blog telling me that he can’t find Jesus in me or my writings/blog because I just don’t want to agree with his lying, trickster personality.
After I wrote my article: Born Again Christians are Now Compared to Inquisitors of the Inquisitions based on a post written by Steve (khanya.wordpress.com) who lovingly compared the teaching of the Word of God and those who preach the truth to Inquisitors of the Inqusition. My blog was bombarded with very very very angry Emergents who lambased me for disagreeing with Steve. See Emergent are allowed to make the most horrendus comments about born again Christians and Jesus Christ the Son of God but we are not allowed to disagree.
Nic Paton said to me:
“The way you are dealing with my comments, the absolute willful misinterpretation of my freely offered thoughts, the stubborn refusal to converse, your gleeful burning down of your own straw man arguments, the ongoing infantile sarcasm, the complete lack of credit given to anyone who you disgree with, your deeply flawed misunderstanding of philosophy and theology, and your rote bible bashing, is to me, a travesty of Christian witness.
I’m trying, Deborah, to find the God in all this, I’m trying to believe the best, but at the moment, I’m just not seeing the Jesus you boast about being so in love with in these words.” - 2009/06/26 at 3:06pm
Well Nic, besides the fact that we will never know when you are telling the truth. You are right about one thing and that is I will never agree with anything you have to say. But you are wrong on another because I sure will credit you for everything you have to say.
Nic ‘HOLY TRICKSTER’ Paton; WOLF in Sheeps Clothing and a TRAVESTY of a genuine Christian.
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The Holy Trickster by Nic Paton
Featuring The Jester-Fool, Coyote-Jackal, Br’er Rabbit, Homo Ludens, Hermes-Mercury, Prometheus, and the Serpent….
I first became aware of the Trickster when at some point in my 30’s, when in order to survive, I was forced to wear a Grey Suit. See, I had been a free spirited musician until that point, and “Suits” represented the Recording Industry and Accountants, who were everything we (the chosen ones) despised. So in the aftermath of the collapse of my artistic career, and with it my notions of God – so earnestly had I taken my vocation – I was joining THE ENEMY. I was succumbing to necessity, I was abandoning the “Keeping of the Faith” (To quote the Wayne’s World rendition of Jim Morrison, who was spared all this by his in/glorious early demise).
So I headed off tie and all, into the City of London, to sell my time to the world’s largest bank. And I thought to myself, “This is kind of cool”, because in my heart I knew I was not in fact becoming one of the enemy, but rather to quote Bruce Cockburn “Dancing in the Dragons Jaws”, more like a spy. I might have appeared to be another hi finance techno-drone, but I realise now, I was in fact an incarnation of the trickster.
To quote mythographer Joseph Campbell, in “The Masks of God Vol 1″:
“This ambiguous, curiously fascinating figure of the trickster appears to have been the chief mythological character of the paleolithic world of story. A fool, and a cruel, lecherous cheat, and epitome of the principle of disorder, he is nevertheless the culture-bringer also. And he appeared under many guises : Coyote, Great Hare, Br’er Rabbit, Raven, Jay, Reynard the Fox, but also, on a more serious plane, he appears as the devil.”
At that time I started having dreams. In one I was (to quote my notes directly) “being sucked down with all manner of dogs”, into a vortex of mud or sand, heading for the funnel and ultimately, the darkness of the earth. Towards the bottom, I saw a figure standing watch over the pit, with a Jackals head and a human body. I awoke just as I took in what I thought was my last breath.
In another dream, a crazed knife wielding gypsy near a pool with an incomplete flyover in its midst, threw a knife at my wife, and missed; I reacted with rage at this wild, act of irresponsibility.
With the help of some Jungian “divination”, I found out that the Jackal Headed figure was Anubis, Egyptian guardian of the dead. And via the gypsy, I came to appreciate the presence in my mythical life of Hermes, a primary source of this ethos in Greek mythology.
Now Hermes is pretty multi-faceted. He is at once guardian of boundary stones (herms), communication, sport, music and ultimately a pretty shifty figure. From him we get hermeneutics (translation of ideas across cultural boundaries) and in his Roman guise Mercury, the postal insignia with the winged helmet.
The interesting thing for me was, having grown into adulthood characterised by charismatic evangelical piety and its worldview, how this trickster found a place alongside some very powerful “medicine”: the Evil Snake, and the overconfident, unambiguous “clarion call of truth”.
To be less obscure, I am referring to these 2 characteristics of my early belief system:
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Monotheism’s dualism: christian theological orthodoxy sees Satan as the serpent in the garden having caused mans original sin via Eve’s temptation. The Jewish view of Satan is slightly less polarised, seeing him as an advocate / adversary to the law, rather than a semi-omnipotent being of dread and the father of all evil. And the third member of monotheism – Islam, doesn’t seem that different to the christian view regarding dualising good and evil.
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Naive Sincerity: The importance of being earnest – values such as “truth” and “integrity” were deemed absolutely crucial. In this Newtonian world – a predictable machine presided over by a God of Order - ambiguity was eschewed and all sorts of logical hoops were jumped though to maintain “consistency”. This is not so much a problem with christianity per se as with Greek reductionist thinking. Is our Greek inheritance a good thing? – thoroughly dualistic, yet richly imbued in myth; and a tricky question.
So I rejoice at the presence of the Trickster in a barren land of closed thought, for quite apart from being the bringer of death and destruction, he in fact is a catalyst for life and salvation. I now look at Jesus as embodying (amongst all things divine) this trickster, as well.
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“Be as wise/sly as serpents and as harmless a doves”. In this metaphor, the serpent is not an outlaw, but something to be actively embraced.
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“Don’t let your left hand know what your right hand is doing”: Conjurers of the world, unite in Christ!
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“Become as little children”: engage in play, awe, and the space opened up by ambiguity.
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“I will make myself more foolish in their eyes” – David, shamanic worshipper and “apple of G-d’s eye”.
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“I become a fool for Christ” – here Paul elevates the Jester role, acknowledging that it is not the highly evolved adult, but those without guile, who will experience G-d.
You may be saying, this is madness; this is exactly what we have come away from – deception and falsehood. I can sympathise with your confusion, because I share it. I too have looked askance at anyone delving into such shadowy arts.
But I am coming to see the Trickster no so much as a threat, but a gift. In fact, I see him as quite central to the core christian truth of incarnation, as well as central to all creativity.
As I now see it, the very call to incarnation involves the trickster. Incarnation can be described as “being in the world but not of it”. All people having undertaken a spiritual path, especially one involving reorienting oneself in the world, will know the difficulty of staying grounded and yet striving for transcendence. All manner of things get in the way, rationalism, craving, habit, apathy, materialism, fear. To live “in the spirit” can be a very difficult task.
The tendency in the search for “holiness” or “purity” is usually to separate our world into the secular/worldly/carnal and the sacred/heavenly/spiritual. We have immense difficulty being “in the world” when we refocus our inner life on the transcendent beyond.
I suggest that this is where the trickster comes to assist us. His realm includes ambiguity, irony, and play, incompleteness and chaos, holding in tension and suspending belief, generosity and cruelty, imagination, flexibility and cunning shifting of shape, the boundaries between life and death, and making connections where they are not supposed to be.
Clearly the trickster has the potential to destroy. Engaging him is to take a risk. It is the liminal area between right and wrong that is his playground. We should never say as an excuse “The trickster made me do it.” It is up to us to learn what we can from him but never to naively give him our heart.
There are totemic trickster figures in many of the more animistic cultures; additionally clowns and jesters, comedians and conjurers, and most if not all practitioners of art play this subversive role in society. Not to forget negotiators and peacemakers; even politicians, theirs being the “art of the possible”, despite their common failings.
Joseph Campbell notes
“They represent, from the point of view of the masters of decorum, the chaos principle, the principle of disorder, the force careless of taboos and shattering bounds. But from the point of view of the deeper realms of being from which the energies of life ultimately spring, this principle is not to be despised.”
And maverick Bruce Cockburn, again, in his rambunctious “Maybe The Poet” observes
Male female slave or free
Peaceful or disorderly
Maybe you and he will not agree
But you need him to show you new ways to seeDon’t let the system fool you
All it wants to do is rule you
Pay attention to the poet
You need him and you know it
What I am concerned with here is the potential of the poet, the prophet, and the shaman, to usher in holiness. To “shatter bounds” and bring us new ways to see.
As we focus on the task of apprehending or worshiping the Divine, wrestle with the complexities or truth, or simply seek to live life more fully, we should imaginatively and openly engage the services of this mythical “holy trickster”.
Source: http://soundandsilence.wordpress.com/2008/03/12/the-holy-trickster/
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Some comments from the bottom of the article:
liquidlight said March 12, 2008 @ 1:03 pm
Nic, i really enjoyed this post. from the “trickster made me do it” title of a future classic something, to the concept of re-embracing the snake, to the dangerous twilight of trickster-space…
i found it interesting that you found elements of the trickster in both Christ and satan. there exists a strange and taboo area of mystery, namely the commonality between Christ and His supposed nemesis, DIE DUIWEL!. they are both described as the star of the morning/morning star and share the same numerological value in the kabbalistic system – which in their minds, suggests a deep connection.
i have my doubts that satan and lucifer are the same beings but that’s another story.
a wonderfully ranging & useful post.
Roger Saner said March 17, 2008 @ 4:23 pm
Wow – if there was a prize for brilliant blog entries, I’d give it to you for this one!
Andrew said March 12, 2008 @ 4:44 pm
I have never delved into the concept and myth of the trickster and must thank you for creating a fascination for this demigod charlatan. I will be dwelling on this and respond shortly. My mind is going in the direction of ” in a Fool’s Paradise, the trickster/ jester would be king” and the symbiotic relationship between Trickster and Trickstee.
Thanks for enriching my Imagination.
Anthony Paton said June 27, 2008 @ 11:44 am
Hi Nic and Friends
Tying this one into an earlier subject- shamanism and KhoiSan culture, I thought it might be worth mentioning that in KhoiSan belief systems you are unable to access the Supreme Deity except through /Kaggen (The Trickster). /Kaggen is capable of assuming many forms, but one of the most widely transmitted was the form of Mantis. This resulted in the interpretation by whites (particularly Afrikaaners) that the ‘bushmen’ and ‘hotentots’ worshipped the Praying Mantis- and hence the poppular Afrikaans name for a Praying Mantis of ‘hotnotsgod’. I have a very ambivalent realtionship to this word as it is both very derisive and very witty.
With deeper understanding of the sources (such as Bleek, Orpen etc.) one can surmise that /Kaggen could in fact have the form of any creature, and not only a Mantis. In itself, this explains how the KhoiSan belief system is both animistic and pantheistic. These are two of the “theisms” with which I have the highest sympathy and identification, and may partially explain the attraction for me of KhoiSan history and culture. /Kaggen as the intercessor and proxy for the Ultimate Deity has messianic or “Christ-like” qualities, but as a deceiver has “Satan-like” qualities. As I understand it though, the purpose of the deception is to create an awareness that as any material being may be a proxy for the sacred and divine, that all sentient beings by extension should wisely be treated as though they are sacred and divine. It was thus that the eland was both the highest food source and the supreme spiritual creature.
Christians may find it bizarre that a group of people should desire to symbolically consume the body of God, but that of course is exactly what the act of communion represents as well.
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Deborah,
I am sure Nic will be grateful for the free press. It is such a blessing to be able to read some deep theological reflection on a website that to my wandering eyes thus far has looked more like barren wilderness.
Nic – fabulous post. Indeed, the trickster motif throughout Scripture is one to both haunt us, inspire us, provoke us and propel us deeper to our Savior. It is no surprise, perhaps, that the father of Israel, Jacob, was famously known as “The Trickster.” I would take it as a compliment that you have been labeled as such by the author of this blog.
grace and peace.
Nic in the article says: I have no doubt that you will rejoice at the presence of the Trickster in a barren land of closed thought, for quite apart from being the bringer of death and destruction, he in fact is a catalyst for life and salvation. I now look at Jesus as embodying (amongst all things divine) this trickster, as well.
So we have Jesus as embodying (amongst all things divine) Satan?!?!?!?!?!?!?!
But then yes as per New Age belief this is true. For the the False Christ is just that. A Satanic version of Christ.
And you actually have the audacity to come here and tell me I am not a Christian?
You and your friends are nothing but; Tricksters, Liars and Wolves in Sheeps Clothing
Again, Deborah, you are showing a lack of theological reflection and an inability to read closely. You are seeing only what you wish to see. Satan, Deborah, is not divine. So no, Jesus is not the embodiment of the satan. That is just nonsense.
Where did Nic tell you you are “not a Christian”? Please point me to the quote.
Thanks.
Oh for crying out loud….you know what Chad? You people are so FULL of NEW AGE teaching that you can’t even tell the difference between what’s Christian and what’s not.
I see no love for JESUS CHRIST in any of this rubbish Nic has written but you all give him a standing ovation.
And stop insulting my intelligence. I know exactly what’s going on here… You are the ones caught up in New Age occult teaching, mysticism, shamanism, Gnosticism, and all sorts of other teaching and then you want to actually still try prove you are correct by lambasting me for standing up for born again Christians…
Have you thought of leaving the Methodist church and joining a New Age Faire? I bet you will get tons of souls ‘saved’ there.
Deborah,
What is NEW AGE or gnostic about anything Nic wrote? I am getting the sense from you that you love to make grand brush strokes and generalizations, throwing labels around to such a high degree that they lose all meaning. If you want to be taken seriously than you need to at least detail which parts YOU think are new age-ish and then allow Nic or others to explain how they interpret such-and-such to be true to the Gospel of Christ.
Of course, such discourse takes time and an investment of self to the pursuit of truth and honest dialog. It also requires respect, something I have seen very little from you towards anyone, myself included. It seems that you are more satisfied with just labeling people and throwing as many darts as you can, hoping something sticks. You are welcome to that game. It just seems rather immature and a great waste of time. Surely all your time and energy and skills could be put to better use bring healing and reconciliation to a world in need of Good News?
By the way, I am still waiting for that quote from Nic where he said you are “not a Christian.”
Thanks.
Chad
To Deborah
I see you have helped yourself wholesale to my post. That’s fine – I believe in freedom of information. But it’s neither very imaginative nor polite.
To All
To fundamentalists, to those who struggle with emergence, to those who struggle with labels, to those who struggle with God, and to those who struggle with Satan.
I know there are a lot of people reading this. I am the originator of the Trickster post, and I invite you to discuss your reservations or any other thing with us or more appropriately, with me [deleted] I am humoring Deborah in allowing this conversation to commence in the sanctity of her “lair”.
Regardless of what you think of me at this point, I can imagine and understand any reservation you might have describing our Loving God as a “trickster”. I have been an evangelical, I am a recovering fundamentalist, so I know how you think. I do not demand that you change either, but that we can enter the respectful space of interfaith dialog : evangelical-emergent in this case. God uses us all where we are at, if we are open to love.
Above all things, I love you and my rhetoric is not against your faith. You are my brothers and sisters in Christ, and I look forward with great anticipation our Oneness in God at the end of time.
However we are now “in the world” and confusion seems to be the way of this world. But confusion is also inherent in God; Paul describes this as “seeing though a glass darkly”, and mystics and belivers through the ages have always honoured the difficulty of “unkowing” a God who claims to have revealed Himself.
The esssential thing I want to say here is the primary misunderstanding inherant in my post is confusing “ambiguity” and “deception”. There is a thin line between these things, something fundamentalism does not tend to appreciate.
When I describe God as a Trickster, I am talking about a God who dwells in darkness as well as light, I am talking about Jesus who says both “He who is not for me is against me” and “He who is not against me is for me.” That is one of the best illustrations of the Trickster I might point to.
I am not in anyway whatsoever calling God a liar or a deciever. God is True. But I have come to know this truth as being deeply paradoxical. In fact, truth that is one sided, unidimensional, black or white, is in my experience, a very dim apprehension of the riches which await us in Christ. Futher, such arrogent assertions about the truth show little of the humilty of our limitation as humans, or awareness of our fallen nature.
In closing let me thank Chad for asking about this misrepresentation, and offer Deborah a correction:
You say, “And you actually have the audacity to come here and tell me I am not a Christian?”
Deboarah – it would appear that the first rule of truth is to stop making stuff up that contradicts the facts. You know full well I have included you as a Christian sister in all my addresses. What I told you was that I did not see great evidence of Love in your dealings with me and others. We all fall short of the Glory of God, I am picking on you not out of spite, but because you force the argument and create antagonism to such an extent that we have to get straight to the heart of it.
I hope all things, and I hope that you begin to learn to love and be loved, more than is now apparent. And I hope the same for myself.
Nic
“Deboarah – it would appear that the first rule of truth is to stop making stuff up that contradicts the facts. You know full well I have included you as a Christian sister in all my addresses”
What I said to Chad was in reference to the ambiguity of everything you all have said to me since you all started to come onto my blog. Chad called be a ‘clever athiest’…nextminute I am your sister, next minute my father is the father of lies as per the verse Iggy mentioned in one of his posts. Then I am part of your family, then I am evil, then I am nice, then I am not, then I’m this, then I’m that….
Fortunately for me I have stuck to the truth from minute one and told you and all those who agree with your shamanistic/mystic aka Occult beliefs that I AM NOT part of your family/body/church/group/clan/emergent/one world religion/half truth/socialistic/all faiths lead to one god/panentheistic/pentheistist/pagan/mythology/gods and goddess/idol woroship/divination abominations. Which means (for those who are hard of hearing) that under NO UNCERTAIN TERMS will I ever be a sister/brother/member/friend/bretheren/ or anything else you can think of too any of you.
Right now that we got that out of the way…hopefully once and for all. I can carry on with some very important articles to expose this horrendus NEW religious movement further.
Cherio!
I would invite any who read this to seriously consider Nic’s response above and then Deborah’s and ask yourself: Which response sounds more like Jesus?
Who sounds more like they are following in the way of the servant to all and the one who IS love?
Deborah, who claims she will never be any of our friends or considers us brothers or sisters is essentially saying to Jesus, “I don’t care about your commands.” Deborah, you are saying to Paul, “I do not care that you call us to be minsters of reconciliation.” Jesus said that those who love only those who are like them are no better off than the pagans.
Deborah, may you come to know the richness of grace like never before.
*Yawn*
Chad
You said: Deborah, who claims she will never be any of our friends or considers us brothers or sisters is essentially saying to Jesus, “I don’t care about your commands.” Deborah, you are saying to Paul, “I do not care that you call us to be minsters of reconciliation.” Jesus said that those who love only those who are like them are no better off than the pagans.
Oh there we go….twist, twist, twist……*bursts out into song* Come on twist again like you did in this comment, Yea, twist again like you did the last, Do you remember when you were ever truthful?’ Yea, just twist again, twistin’ time is here.
I am now going to roll up my comment with the title “minsters of reconciliation” onto some parchment, roll up that parchment, and slap you over the head with it.
HERE WE GO : slap-slap-slap-over the head!
REPEAT #3:
2 Corinthians 5:11-21
11 Since, then, we know what it is to fear the Lord, we try to persuade men. What we are is plain to God, and I hope it is also plain to your conscience.
12 We are not trying to commend ourselves to you again, but are giving you an opportunity to take pride in us, so that you can answer those who take pride in what is seen rather than in what is in the heart.
13 If we are out of our mind, it is for the sake of God; if we are in our right mind, it is for you.
14 For Christ’s love compels us, because we are convinced that one died for all, and therefore all died.
15 And he died for all, that those who live should no longer live for themselves but for him who died for them and was raised again.
16 So from now on we regard no one from a worldly point of view. Though we once regarded Christ in this way, we do so no longer.
17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has gone, the new has come!
18 All this is from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation:
19 that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting men’s sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation.
20 We are therefore Christ’s ambassadors, as though God were making his appeal through us. We implore you on Christ’s behalf: Be reconciled to God.
21 God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.
Chad
We are called to preach the Word of God as we try desperately to persuade men, but their consciences are following after wickedness. We don’t commend ourselves for our gain, but for our Lord Jesus Christ who saved. Jesus’ love compels us to preach the gospel with all long suffering, because we are convinced that one died for all, and therefore all died. That the people of this world are dead if they do no not believe in Jesus Christ who died that the people of this world may be saved. But many do not want to know Him. They choose another ‘Christ’ instead. When one is born again we no longer view anything from a worldly perspective, because we are now a new creation a child of God and no longer of this world, our old nature of sin is gone as we no longer want to partake of this world’s wickedness and false doctrines, doctrine of demons.
Preaching the gospel of Jesus Christ, the truth that people may be saved though God’s Holy Spirit, All this because God reconciled us to Him through His Son Jesus Christ who we believed in, that he did for our sin, washed clean by His Blood that we may be presented before God spotless. We come before Jesus Christ and earnestly repented of the sin in our lives, that we may be saved. We preach the Gospel of Jesus Christ (salvation), the gospel of Reconciliation (salvation) that people may come to accept Jesus Christ and be reconciled to God.
Unless one believes and accepts Jesus Christ into their lives, there will never be reconciliation between themselves and God, because they deny His Son. They will remain in their wickedness and sin which is death. But those who come to believe the truth stated in the Word of God and nothing but the Truth as stated in the Word, who repent of their sin and are born again are reconciled to God and therefore now go out and preach the Gospel of Jesus Christ so that other souls may be saved.
When we are genuine Christians we now become God’s Ambassadors and we proclaim the Gospel loud and clear to all who want to hear. We warn, exhort, we teach, we rebuke.
There is no such thing as reconciliation between people who follow after false teaching and server another ‘Christ’ and those who obey the Word of God completely and serve Jesus Christ the Son of God. We preach the Gospel of Jesus Christ to everyone. BUT few will accept His message for Jesus Christ who was born sinless, walked this earth sinless and died sinless and was resurrected sinless who sits as the right hand of the Father, King of Kings, Lord of Lords is HATED by this sinful wicked world.
This is the verse Iggy tried to desperately to back up his Emergent ideas. As you will see this goes nicely with the above, where Paul tells Timothy to stay away, run away, flee from men who preach another gospel to what Jesus Christ commanded.
1 Timothy 6:1, 3-5, 11-12, 20-21
1 All who are under the yoke of slavery should consider their masters worthy of full respect, so that God’s name and our teaching may not be slandered.
3 If anyone teaches false doctrines and does not agree to the sound instruction of our Lord Jesus Christ and to godly teaching,
4 he is conceited and understands nothing. He has an unhealthy interest in controversies and quarrels about words that result in envy, strife, malicious talk, evil suspicions
5 and constant friction between men of corrupt mind, who have been robbed of the truth and who think that godliness is a means to financial gain.
11 But you, man of God, flee from all this, and pursue righteousness, godliness, faith, love, endurance and gentleness.
12 Fight the good fight of the faith. Take hold of the eternal life to which you were called when you made your good confession in the presence of many witnesses.
20 Timothy, guard what has been entrusted to your care. Turn away from godless chatter and the opposing ideas of what is falsely called knowledge,
21 which some have professed and in so doing have wandered from the faith. Grace be with you.
A letter from Paul to Timothy. Timothy was having a bit of a problem with people who refused to listen to the Gospel of Jesus; who want to create their treasures on earth. In doing so, these people were slandering the name of God.
Paul then tells Timothy that if anyone teaches false doctrine and does not agree with sound doctrine and Godly teaching as Jesus Christ COMMANDED; then these people are conceited and understand nothing – this means the Word of God, hence they use little verses here and there to mislead people with their evil plans.
Paul says that corrupt men, who refuse the sound instruction of Jesus Christ to preach genuine teaching, are only interested in controversies and quarrels about ‘words’ that result in envy, strife, malicious talk, evil suspicions and constant friction. Paul says that these men who refuse sound teaching have NOT Truth in them and think that godliness is when you try to produce good works on earth (which means nothing). They think that trying to create ‘heaven on earth’ makes them special and godly.
Paul then tells Timothy to run away from these people, FLEE THEM, and pursue those who are righteous, who have godliness, faith, love, endurance and gentleness for they are truly born again of the Holy Spirit. Paul tells Timothy however to NOT STOP FIGHTING the GOOD FIGHT (good fruit) of DEFENGING the FAITH (the true gospel of Jesus Christ – good news).
Timothy is instructed to hold fast onto Jesus’ promise of eternal life when Timothy made a public confession that by accepting Jesus as his Saviour he will hold fast onto the truth and proclaim it at ALL COSTS. But at the same time, STAY AWAY from wicked people who refuse to hear the Truth. (Eternal life is not on this earth, but in Heaven, and this earth WILL not become HEAVEN. Emergent’s along with every other movement/religion out there are trying to create God’s Kingdom on earth (man’s kingdom) which is useless and ungodly)
Paul tells Timothy to take care of the instructions that Jesus Christ entrusted to him. To not find himself ensnared in godless chatter with people who OPPOSE the Word of God. Who come along with NEW knowledge that is completely false (like good fruit that is actually bad fruit). Timothy (and ALL genuine Christians today) are NOT to try build relationships with those who are no longer following the gospel of Jesus Christ, but have wondered off the track and now follow new teaching/false teaching, which sounds biblical, but it not.
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The Word of God tells born again Christians to not engage in godless chatter with people who refuse to accept the truth. In fact we are not to engage with people who oppose the Word of God in any way. This includes those who quote verses from the bible as they try desperately to back up their NEW AGE, NEW Emergent knowledge and accept ideas from all religions around the world as well as being compatible to the Bible –which GOD also COMMANDS you NOT to do- because if you do, you deny Him. By agreeing with other faiths as being acceptable you agree that other gods are also acceptable. And God clearly states that you shall worship no other god’s but HIM.
Jesus spoke that in the last says there will be a great apostasy (a falling away from the Gospel of Jesus Christ) to another gospel, another Christ. This ‘imitation’ Christ is the Man Of Lawlessness.
“Jesus says, when He returns shall He even find faith left on this earth” That’s Jesus’ words. Not mine. You better make sure you are in the minority, which is what the TRUTH, the Gospel of Jesus Christ is being reduced too through Emergent ideals and the creation of a One World Religion.
Now Chad, go be a minister of reconcilliation to Nic. He really needs it as he is “delving into such shadowy arts”
Like I said, you do not think yourself as one who is a reconciler but a divider.
I am trying to picture Jesus saying, “I will not eat with that person, I will not like that person, I will not associate with that person.” Unbelievable.
I’m new to blogging and I’m new to ‘emergent’. Nic doesn’t need my defense, but as a friend of over twenty years, I respect his mind, his courage to question and his journey of faith. I have received his encouragement, his generosity, his hospitality and his kindness. I see no ‘trickster’ dressed in sheep’s clothing.
I could feel offended by your comments about ‘them’, but choose not to as I navigate my faith and sincerely figure out how to be the hands, feet and fragrance of Christ in a hurting world.
Kimberley
Kimberely
What’s you point? Knowing someone for 100 years does not make what they speak the truth.
Chad
You are the divider Chad. Because you preach another gospel. You agree with Nic that Jesus and the Tricksters (amongst other divinites) are basically one and the same. That Jesus and Satan are compatible. You agree with Nic that delving into shadowy arts is ok. Move on Chad, your welcome here has seriously worn out. But thanks for exposing yourself.
Chad
Try picture this verse:
1 Corinthians 5:9-13
9 I wrote you in my letter not to associate with immoral people;
10 I did not at all mean with the immoral people of this world, or with the covetous and swindlers, or with idolaters, for then you would have to go out of the world.
11 But actually, I wrote to you not to associate with any so-called brother if he is an immoral person, or covetous, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or a swindler–not even to eat with such a one.
12 For what have I to do with judging outsiders? Do you not judge those who are within the church?
13 But those who are outside, God judges. REMOVE THE WICKED MAN FROM AMONG YOURSELVES.
So the Corinthians wrote a letter to Paul which was a reply to a letter that he wrote to them telling them not to associate with people who were immiral, covetous, worshiper of Idols, revilers, drunkards or swindelers. The Corinthains replied, and were confused and basically said to paul, “are you saying we can’t associate with these people”? Paul replies angrily and is asking them how they could possibly mis-interpret what he said and he repeats to them. DO NOT associate with a so-called brother if he is an immoral person, or covetous, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or a swindler–not even to eat with such a one.
Paul rebukes them and says REMOVE THE WICKED MAN FROM AMONG YOURSELVES
Notice the SO-CALLED Brother – the one who says they are Christians but refuse the truth and follow after other gods instead – like Emergents.
These people Paul is referring to are people who have heard the truth and then refuse the truth and try wangle their way amongst the body of Christ to cause DIVISION.
Where exactly did you study to be a Pastor Chad?? Oh boy…
Nic Paton wrote:
“… What I am concerned with here is the potential of the poet, the prophet, and the shaman, to usher in holiness. To “shatter bounds” and bring us new ways to see…”
OMYGOD. What cliched, ‘Power of Myth’ garbage from twenty years ago.
Hey, Nic.
Uh… have you really done your research on Jung and Campbell?
You know that Jung, in his autobiography, MEMORIES DREAMS AND REFLECTIONS tells of how he was haunted by demonic spirits who would “trickster like” ring his doorbell at random and annoying hours of the day and night?
Yeah. Also Nic, you know that Jung was “haunted’ by these spirits to the point that he did automatic handwriting?
Do your homework, boy.
Then let’s deal with Joe Campbell, who edited for Viking in the 40′s THE PORTABLE JUNG and then , of course, went on to write the idiotic classic “THE HERO WITH A THOUSAND FACES” that inspired George Lucas to make a few good movies but also some serious clunkers like Howard the Duck and another Tom Cruise movie that I can’t recall the name of… so much for using Jungian/Campbellian mythomush to make ‘hit movies”.
Campbell tried to put forth his doubleminded idea that there were “spirits in the world’ that are “just projections” of “human need for them to exist” and at the same time, could not answer the question as to whether or not they did actually exist in reality.
C S Lewis foretells of this psychotic doublemindedness in one of his books — how people will come to believe in a “force” that is impersonal and somehow not supernatural but a spiritual force nonetheless.
In other words, a way to blind ones eyes to the reality of Satan and the fact Satan has a personality and a personal desire against every human being on earth to destroy them.
Nic, you need to read Jeffery Maason’s critiques of Campbell and therefore Jung.
JUng was such a foolish idiot blinded by his “theories” that during Nazi Germany, he was on the Nazi payroll as a shrink and called Hitler a “demi God” while he put nervous Nazi pilots on the couch. In other words, for all of Jung’s so called “genius”, he was a wimpy, limp wristed, demonized fool who did not warn or alert people to the horrors of Nazism, but instead was entranced by its mythological appeal to the “collective unconscious”.
All if this Jung Campbell stuff is very old hat and any creative person, especially a Christian, needs to do their homework on it. It’s complete dog excrement.
PLUS, both these men were AntiSemites. Maason calls Campbell out on this a lot.
Nic, do your homework buddy. Satan is under God’s thumb. He is not a “creator” or a “necessary part of creation” he is creation’s CURSE.
You need Nic, to remember that the only powerful thing on the earth is God’s Word incarnated in His Son who is the Word made flesh…
and then you need to remember that Jung nor Campbell had a ready answer for the problem of mankind that surpasses the generations: SIN.
Campbell’s theories were flawed ultimately because he basically states that “God exists because man has a need for Him to exist.” What dog excrement, again. His flawed theory of the “Hero With a Thousand Faces” is that he twists the historical evidence that Jesus Christ actually did exist and there is legal and evidentiary proof. He fails to realize that if Jesus is who He said He was, then all primitive and pagan cultures have a “counterfeit” Jesus in their pantheon of demonic “gods”… thus the Hero with a Thousand Faces should be retitled:
THE ONE TRUE HERO HAS A THOUSAND COUNTERFEITS…
End of story. Do your homework little Nic, you really don’t have a clue what you are talking about… IF you are a Christian, you need to be concerned about “Carrying the Cross” not as Campbell instructs to “Follow Your Bliss”
Study to show yourself approved unto a Holy God, Nic, so you may rightly divide the Word…
I agree with Discerning the World. This article by this Nic guy is shocking and their attack against the author of this blog is shocking. How can these people call themselves Christian and agree that Satan and Jesus Christ are incarnations of each other.
I am so shocked and this is going on in South Africa! I thought we were a God fearing country. This message that is being taught is Satanic.
Those who know Jesus Christ know the Father and those who know the Father know Jesus Christ. If these people can call the author of this blog a Christian and then later call the author of the Devil then it is glaringly obvious that these people have no idea who Jesus Christ or the Father is.
Keep going Discerning the World! Never stop exposing false teaching. You are a blessing to all those searching for the truth that will read your blog and realize what is happening around them and come before Jesus Christ and repent of their sin before it’s too late.
Thanks Arise!
Of course you would delete my comments, Deborah. They expose you for who you really are. Especially the last, where I ask you who would really want to get to know you if they were lost given your insults, lack of love and humility and degrading of anyone who disagrees with you? How are you like Jesus?
By deleting my comments you only prove to me that I was right about you.
No Chad The Word of God has exposed you.
Deleting comments which is rife amongst New Age, Emergent websites is not proof if one speaks the truth or not. You have lied so much here it’s not even funny anymore. Besides, I told you about rules in the About My blog section :)
I repeat:
1 Corinthians 5:9-13
9 I wrote you in my letter not to associate with immoral people;
10 I did not at all mean with the immoral people of this world, or with the covetous and swindlers, or with idolaters, for then you would have to go out of the world.
11 But actually, I wrote to you not to associate with any so-called brother if he is an immoral person, or covetous, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or a swindler–not even to eat with such a one.
12 For what have I to do with judging outsiders? Do you not judge those who are within the church?
13 But those who are outside, God judges. REMOVE THE WICKED MAN FROM AMONG YOURSELVES.
So the Corinthians wrote a letter to Paul which was a reply to a letter that he wrote to them telling them not to associate with people who were immoral, covetous, worshiper of idols, revilers, drunkards or swindelers. The Corinthains replied, and were confused and basically said to paul, “are you saying we can’t associate with these people”? Paul replies angrily and is asking them how they could possibly mis-interpret what he said and he repeats to them: DO NOT associate with a so-called brother if he is an immoral person, or covetous, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or a swindler–not even to eat with such a one.
Paul rebukes them and says REMOVE THE WICKED MAN FROM AMONG YOURSELVES
Notice the SO-CALLED Brother – the one who says they are Christians but refuse the truth and follow after other gods instead – like Emergents.
These people Paul is referring to are people who have heard the truth and then refuse the truth and try wangle their way amongst the body of Christ to cause DIVISION.
Chad< DTW has the right to delete comments. I have not done a thorough reading through of her entire site, but her comments are usually addressed to Christians.
And DTW is completely correct to cite Corinthians as she does.
Basically this scripture is saying that Christians have a right, indeed, a duty, to correct, rebuke, exhort, and judge other Christians or people who claim to be Christians.
BUT as Paul writes there, 'of those on the outside, God is the judge… of those on the inside of the church, YOU are the judges."
DTW is saying that she has a right to judge any Emergent freak doctrines that add to the Gospel or preach another Gospel.
It's better to have someone point out your problems with the Word now, than to face a Holy God when your time at the Throne comes up.
Paul also wrote that "if I or an angel from heaven preach to you any other Gospel, let them be accursed.."
And "Every Word of the Lord is pure, let no man add to HIs Words"…
God is very specific with how we are to treat the Word made Flesh, the Bible.
You add to it, you are cursed.
You twist it, you are in danger.
You preach another Gospel that is a counterfeit, you are a False teacher and damned.
Teachers have a higher level of accountability with the Lord, too.
If the unsaved happen upon this website, I would be very impressed if they even could engage DTW enough for her to be "mean" to them…
I doubt it she would be "mean" to them anyway. SHe knows that "those on the outside of the church, God is the judge" and we have NO RIGHT to judge the unsaved for their sin. They do not have the power of the Holy Spirit to overcome their sin as we as Christians do.
Chad, quit whining and drop the stupid Emergent New Age demonism. God is not pleased.
Arise: Now that’s a comment and a half.
They do not understand that speaking the truth is in love and NOTE HATE. They think that NOT AGREEING WITH THEM means we hate them. But this is a complete lie, as is everything that opposes the Word of God.
They think by questioning their words we are juding them. I leave what they do in their lives for God to judge, but their words, now that’s another story – in fact their words they speak judge themselves for what they say goes against the Bible and preach another gospel. And it’s easy to tell especially when you correct their horrible twisted use of scripture – they ignore it and run away – use diversion tactics instead to try focus ones attention off what the Bible has to day on the matter.
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Arise,
No one is “whining” here. If you, like Deborah, will not engage the actual issues what more can I say? Both of you seem to just toss out generalizations and untruths about myself and others. None of you have once engaged any of the things you claim are anti-Christ. It’s all really absurd.
Frankly, this line from you says it all: God is very specific with how we are to treat the Word made Flesh, the Bible.
Friend, the Bible is not “the Word made flesh.” The Bible is not nor should it ever be made into an idol. The Bible points us to THE Word, which is Jesus.
You cannot interpret scripture apart from Christ. And Deborah and yourself, in my opinion, are sorely lacking in the virtues of Christ. You have the “letter of the law” which kills and yet miss the “spirit.”
I’d be happy to discuss the specifics of what you feel is our “twisting and lying” if you so wish. But please refrain from making grand pronouncements about my salvation or that of other Christians.
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Chad
You said: And Deborah and yourself, in my opinion, are sorely lacking in the virtues of Christ.
You are the one who thinks Nic’s divination, incarnaton, shadowy dark arts are acceptable and cool. Did you really study to be a Pastor? If so did they leave out this verse from your studies or did you just skip over it:
Deuteronomy 18:10-12
10 “There shall not be found among you anyone who makes his son or his daughter pass through the fire, one who uses divination, one who practices witchcraft, or one who interprets omens, or a sorcerer, 11 or one who casts a spell, or a medium, or a spiritist, or one who calls up the dead.” 12 For whoever does these things is detestable to the LORD; and because of these detestable things the LORD your God will drive them out before you.
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Deborah, dear, why are you bothering? Do you see how much time you’ve wasted already on folks who are firm in the murk upon which they stand (and will surely sink if they do not turn around)?
Even GOD after a while, lets the unrepentant go (Romans 1:18-32). Stop working your nerves and wasting your time.
Please.
GOD bless.
No one could have said it better. Thanks for kicking me back into first gear.
Hey Deborah, Nic and readers here.
We all know that John 3:16 says that whoever believes in Jesus will not perish but have eternal life.
A Christian is someone who believes IN JESUS, even though they might believe some wrong things about the Bible or Scriptures.
My point is that, whether you like it or not, both Nic and and you, Deborah, believe in Jesus and you both have no choice but to love each other, as per Christ’s command. A Christian is not distinguished necessarily by WHAT they believe or HOW they talk, but whether or not they believe in Jesus. This is the bottom line. Entire generations lived under Catholic rule and didn’t know better, doing all sorts of things I’m sure you would deem heretical. Yet they were still Christians and still saved, because it’s about believing in Jesus (unless you want to relegate generations of people to hell because their theology was off, even though they most certainly believed in Jesus for their salvation!).
So, Deborah, you might want to polarize yourself from Emergents in such an extreme way but you are actually not following a Biblical principle from doing so. I, myself, am not emergent (nor fundamentalist) but if you believe in Jesus and I believe in Jesus I have to love you whether I like it or not. You need to do the same with Nic, and he to you.
More directly, I think your misunderstandings are around language and use of words. Nic likes metaphor and poetry. You’re taking his use of the word ‘trickster’ and projecting your own meaning of what that means over Nic’s post.
If I say the sentence “Go to the bank” that means a number of different things. For you, it might mean go to the local financial institution. For another, it may mean go to the river bank. This is just an example of how words carry different meanings, so in this case you need to first try and understand exactly what Nic means by Trickster before you assume he means Satan. Then you can discuss things more fruitfully and edifyingly.
For blessed are the peacemakers!
Ryan Peter
>> I think your misunderstandings are around language and use of words. Nic likes metaphor and poetry. You’re taking his use of the word ‘trickster’ and projecting your own meaning of what that means over Nic’s post.
Uh…huh…well you think wrong.
Revealing comment you made on The Fire video here: 2009/06/30 at 4:03pm with an awesome twisting of Galations. You call those who are bible believing Christians…foolish? Well now…you guys just can’t stop insulting us can you. But I give you permission to carry on, no really…you are helping soooo many people out there see what Emerging is all about.
Dear Ryan Peter:
The Bible teaches us that even the demons “believe in Jesus”…
To say that simply to “believe in Jesus” is the foundation point for people is ridiculous.
Believing in Jesus and doing what He commands are two completely different things. The difference is salvation or eternal Hellfire, so this is not a trivial conversation.
Jesus warns us sternly against all manner of false teachings, false prophecy and false doctrine because the essence of the Gospel is that He died for our sins. If we believe that, then and only THEN, will we decide to repent and change our lives and “Deny ourselves, pick up our cross and follow HIm”.
See, Ryan Peter, demons cannot and do not “pick up their Cross” and Follow Jesus. Yet, they believe and know who He is.
You need to go and study and show yourself approved unto a Holy God, Ryan Peter. You are inadvertently leading people down a primrose path to Hell with your lukewarm idea of Christ. Sorry to seem “harsh” but get with the program, RP.
Chad:
I understand your distinction between the Bible and The Word; I am sorry if I linked you — did I? — with the person who was quoting Jung and Campbell with such abandon.
You are barkin’ up the wrong tree if you think I am into the letter of the Law.
My concerns as a charismatic apologist are that no one adds to the Word of God any false teachings as per the NAR or the secularist mythomush views of Carl Jung.
Other than that, I don’t know how your name got into the argument, except inadvertently.
The modern tendency among unknowing heretics is to add to the Word or elevate modern prophecy or modern teachings to the level of the Word…
very subtle and very dangerous problems. Most Christians are so “Minds shut/spirits open” these days that they don’t realize the dangerous pit they are falling into… for eternity.
Hey AriseMyLove,
Actually, the scripture you’re probably thinking of is James 2:19:
“You believe that God is one; well and good. Even the demons believe that – and tremble with fear.”
The Scripture doesn’t say demons believe in Jesus. What it says is not the same as “believing in Jesus” which means you put your trust in and you wholly rely on Jesus.
The demons don’t “believe in Jesus”. They believe that God is one. In fact, I could perhaps say that they believe the FACTS of Jesus but don’t believe in the PERSON, which was my point.
Demons don’t pick up their cross and follow Jesus because they don’t follow Jesus or believe in Him.
Now, if following what Jesus commands gets me away from hellfire then what does His blood cover? Why do I need His blood if I can just do what He commands to get me away from hellfire? You seem to be muddling up different aspects of salvation. The Gospel says that good works don’t get you to heaven.
Hey DTW
Lol, the point of that post was to show that the logic of the guy was effectively making the Gospel into a thing of good works get you to heaven. Now that fits the context of Galatians perfectly. If you disagree then it’ll be cool to see why, from Scripture, you disagree.
But here you actually haven’t really said anything about my comment around believing in Jesus qualifying a Christian. What do you think about that?
Chad, I see now where I wrote you…
You criticized me for attempting to equate “The Word” with “the Bible” and then went on to accuse me of legalism or “living by the letter of the Law”…
Instead I’ll open your mind to what I meant to say but did not write…
ANYONE WHO ADDS TO THE GOSPEL or the NEW COVENANT which is the New TESTAMENT which is an AGREEMENT or CONTRACT God has with His true people, is in danger because…
… to add to a contract is to revise it, change it, distort it, make mincemeat of it, and basically disregard the Holiness of God’s Son, who is the contract, who IS the NEW WINE who IS the Word made Flesh.
That better, Chad?
The Eternal Word is a contract.
Oh, and just incase you might want to sneak around the issue of what is the Word and what is not the Word…
remember this, Chad.
The Old Testament Prophets and the New Testament Apostles had one thing in common that NO modern Christian will be able to duplicate, inherit or replicate in their walk today…
The gift of Infallibility.
That’s right. So Paul Peter John, had the gift of INFALLIBILITY to Write the Word of God. Their words are part of the covenant, or testament, or agreement with God. Combined with the Old Testament Prophets, who wrote the Old Testament, they are the…
FOUNDATION OF THE PROPHETS and APOSTLES that is set by the CHIEF CORNERSTONE, CHRIST, and this foundation is already laid, and laid down once.
We are just builders upon that foundation.
However, if you investigate what a cornerstone does you will realize that it sets the angles and perimeters and borders of not only the foundation of a building, but also the rest of the building.
Jesus is saying that because He is the chief cornerstone, this means that none of the Emergent or NAR weirdo experiences or teachings that go “beyond” what is written in the NT are of God.
Got that? If they go outside “what is written” they are not of God.
And you and I and anyone who claims Christ has a duty to rebuke, exhort, and discern and judge anyone who goes “beyond what is written”…
Indeed John tells us not to fellowship with anyone such as that
Charismatics especially need to get back into the beauty of the Word.
“AriseMyLove”
I invite you to comment on the original post: [deleted url by dtw]
You make some points that are worth responding to.
However you do it with such condescention that I am forced to wonder what you are afraid of? Why such ire against me? I am nowhere claiming that Jung or Campbell are without fault. If you read further in my blog you will see this.
Also you are jumping on the bandwagon with your assumptions that I do not study both the bible and those sources I choose to use. You seem like an intelligent person, so play fair if you wnt to be taken for that.
Peter
Please show me how you come to the conclusion that “Satan and Jesus Christ are incarnations ech other”.
In case you need it spelt out, let me assure you that I believe that Jesus Christ is Lord, and that he is in the Father and the Father in him.
Will you accept that?
You are obviously implying that I quoted Campbell and Jung with “abandon”. This is very inaccurate. I quote them very specifically after reading them and critiquing them from my understanding of scripture .. I call it intellectual discernment.
Your near hysteria concerning these writers implies your have unresolved issues and are not in a plce of peace about the Lordship of Christ. If you were, you could let them be in their error.
We can disagree but at least stop your condescention towards me – you actually know nothing about how I live my life.
What is your real name?
Nic
>>> Also you are jumping on the bandwagon with your assumptions that I do not study both the bible and those sources I choose to use.
We have no doubt you use the bible. We have no doubt either that your other sources are of the occult. You combine the two to form new ideas that end as new knowledge and new revelations that falls OUTSIDE of the Word of God. Your occult writings are an abomination unto God.
“With the help of some Jungian “divination”, I found out that the Jackal Headed figure was Anubis, Egyptian guardian of the dead. And via the gypsy, I came to appreciate the presence in my mythical life of Hermes, a primary source of this ethos in Greek mythology.”
First you seek after divination and from this you come to appreciate the presence ‘in your mythical life’ of Hermes.
“So I rejoice at the presence of the Trickster in a barren land of closed thought, for quite apart from being the bringer of death and destruction, he in fact is a catalyst for life and salvation. I now look at Jesus as embodying (amongst all things divine) this trickster, as well.”
You say that you ‘rejoice’ at the ‘presence’ of the Trickster (Satan: bringer of death and destruction) because he is in ‘fact’ as catalyst for (life and salvation). Satan is the one who starts the process of leading us to salvation; he is the catalyst as you say
Because of this you now look at Jesus as embodying Satan as well. Amongst other diving things. What other divine things. You mean other gods. God embodies Satan amongst other divine beings; the gods of other faiths not just the Christian faith.
I am going to stop there. You can spell it out and try to assure us that you ‘believe’ in Jesus Christ as Lord, that He is the Father and the Father in him. But you fail to end your sentence with: and Satan embodies Jesus Christ amongst other divine things as well that Satan is in the Father and the Father in Satan.
Will I accept that?
Never.
Deut 18,10-12
10 “There shall not be found among you anyone who makes his son or his daughter pass through the fire, one who uses divination, one who practices witchcraft, or one who interprets omens, or a sorcerer, 11 or one who casts a spell, or a medium, or a spiritist, or one who calls up the dead.” 12 For whoever does these things is detestable to the LORD; and because of these detestable things the LORD your God will drive them out before you.
Nic:
No hysteria about Jung or Campbell, i simply did my senior thesis on them back as an undergrad and was astonished at the influence they had on our culture.
We are to be “apologists” for Christ and “pull down strongholds and every argument that resists the knowledge of God”…
“Leaving Campbell and Jung be” isn’t being a good apologist for the Lord.
Jung’s doctrines have poisoned many many Christians and make Christ out to be a myth.
It’s good to have intellectual discernment but we discern by the standard of the Word of God. Or at least, that’s what the Word teaches that we should do. Taking the yardstick of the Word to Jung and Campbell is an important exercise for modern Christians in any sort of creative field.
We are to be “apologists” for Christ and “pull down strongholds and every argument that resists the knowledge of God”…
Interesting mission statement you have adopted for yourself, Arise.
Can I direct you to verse one of that same chapter? “I myself, Paul, appeal to you by the meekness and gentleness of Christ – I who am humble when face to face with you, but bold toward you when I am away” (2 Cor. 10:1).
The difference between you and Paul is that Paul had a personal relationship with the people he was addressing and he also knew that they had personal relationships with the people that were in need of discipline and correction and rebuke. They KNEW the fruit (or lack thereof) of the people in question. But above all else, Paul was bound to the rule of love, for without love he would sound like a clanging gong.
Do you consider yourself a minister of reconciliation, arise? Do you deny God’s Word in that same letter to the Corinthians (chapter 5) where Paul exhorts all of us to be ministers of reconciliation rather than division? Just as Christ has for all the world? Or is this something you can conveniently decide not to do when it suits you?
[DELETED BY DTW] – Everytime you complain about “me the owner of here blog” in your comments I will deleted your entire comment. Use it, don’t use it.
Chad said:
Exactly right! The Jesus the emergents follow will never say something like that. Yet, the Bible says:
Who is right, Chad or Jesus Christ? Again:
You don’t get to make the rules, Chad.
Jesus Christ said:
Oh here we go again….it’s like being stuck on spin cycle. Aroung and around and around…
Rule of Love, Law of Love…
Chad, what do you consider intolerace?
a) Saying that a good Muslim, Jew and atheist are lost, no matter how many good works they did or how compassionate they where, and that God’s wrath abides on them?
b) Telling someone that if they don’t repent of their sin they will preish?
c) Saying that all faiths are not compatilbe because the Word of God is not the same as other religions and never will be?
d) all of the above
DTW – al you have to do is actually engage the meat of the post rather than dismiss it with more fluff or deleting me. And by the way, your *qualifying* what reconciliation means is not an answer. Paul does not qualify it but expands it – Just as God through Jesus has reconciled ALL things (do you know what ALL means?) so to are we to be ministers of reconciliation.
By the way, thanks for deleting my other post. I will post it on emergingafrica along with everything else you delete of mine in order to show that the things you delete are not rude or disrespectful of you and this site but are actually questions and thoughts that you just simply refuse to engage with. Perhaps out of fear of being seen as wrong?
DTW -
Please. If you are going to ask me questions then before I even begin to address you I want your word that you will not delete another comment of mine. I am not going to spend my time and energy responding to someone who has shown me no respect and has not once engaged seriously with anything written by me or my friends.
Are you willing to have an honest discussion where respect is shown between if not brothers and sisters in Christ than at least adults? Are you capable of at least recognizing that you may not have all the answer but that God could be speaking through even us emergents? If God can speak through a donkey is it possible God is speaking through me? :)
I will await your reply and then, if you are willing to actually be a gracious host on your blog I’d be happy to answer your question. Otherwise, I will just post these comments at another site.
peace.
Chad
Amanda,
[deleted sentence by DTW, reason: advertisting. If you want to advertise your Emergie friends blog, I'll be happy to provide him plenty of advertising, you don't need to do it.]
You are very selective in your picking certain passages from scripture to support the sort of Jesus you have constructed – one that permits and even glories in your judgmentalism and division.
One of the chief complaints the so-called “religious” had about Jesus was that he ate with sinners, whores and tax-collectors (the scum of society – the traitors of the faith). Do you deny this? I find it interesting that you did not quote those many passages that speak of Jesus befriending such people. Jesus did not come to condemn but to save. Agreed?
Quoting Matt 7 does not serve you in the least. For starters, Jesus is talking about judgement on the last day – not today. But even more important than that, it is JESUS WHO IS THE JUDGE! Not you. Not DTW. Not me. Jesus alone. What is your duty until then? To love and to share GOOD NEWS. Also, you are called to be a minister of reconciliation, just as Jesus was and is.
The Revelation passage does not suit you either for the exact same reasons. If you would like a good study on that book, by the way, visit my blog. I have been teaching it for the last 3 months to my church after studying it in seminary. To be sure, it does not give you license to act as you are acting – quite the opposite actually.
And why do you quote Matthew 10? Are you really trying to turn Jesus into a sociopathic schizophrenic? Is Matthew 10 your sole lens into the life and ministry of Jesus Christ, the one who is called Prince of Peace? Surely you can think with a bit more nuance than this, can’t you?
In the first century you better believe houses became divided when loyalties were questioned. To follow Jesus is not a bed of roses, as any Christian should confess. It is not about getting out of jail free or about getting healthy and wealthy. It is about shouldering a cross and dying to self while dying FOR others. Jesus knew better than anyone that it is the sort of life that just might get you killed. But it is ALSO THE WAY OF LOVE. Jesus’ greatest command, when he could have picked ANY, was “Love the Lord your God…and your neighbor as yourself.” Now, you may ask with the rest of Jesus’ crowd, “Who is my neighbor?” The answer comes back: Even your most hated enemy. And how does one show love to such people? Not by beating them over the head with your own perceptions of truth but by being a friend, by being in community with others, by lending a helping hand, by caring for the sick, by giving a drink of water, a plate of food, a shelter. That is love. It is what we are commanded to show to the world which is lost without this Love, who came in the form of a Person, not laws.
peace.
p.s. The interesting thing about your quoting Matt 7:22ff is that you left off the first verse, which is where Jesus begins: Do not judge, or you too will be judged. 2For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.
And why do you think Jesus casts out those whom he said he never knew? They are people who had the form of religion and did the works – they knew all the right answers – and yet they did not seem to really know the person of Jesus. The did not know love.
Chad: I welcome your comments because it gives an opportunity to clear up many Christian misconceptions.
1. There is a difference between Paul admonishing, say, Alexander the Coppersmith, “who did Paul and the work of the Gospel much harm”…
2. .. and dealing with likeminded believers on issues of faith
3. … and then dealing with the rank unsaved and unwashed.
So there are three categories here. The so called “Christians” who are in error or who reject the Gospel in their doctrine; you could put the Pharisees and Sadducees in this category too. The normal Christians and the Unsaved who don’t know anything about the Gospel and are dead in their sins.
Paul dealt with these three groups the same way the Lord does…
We are to admonish and rebuked those who claim to know or have known Christ but teach “a different Gospel” with all authority. This is reflected in Jesus’ warnings against False Teachers and False Prophets as well. Love is not the operational word here: Truth is. (Since Jesus is both Love and the Truth, it is LOVE to rebuke false teachers and false prophets with stringent authority, btw, and I mean the authority of the Word of God. They are dangerous to the sheep and must be rebuked.)
We are to correct and admonish normal Christians in terms of their doctrine as well, and then, if they fall into sin, attempt to reconcile those to the Lord. This implies that these Christians are intent upon following the Lord in their lives and have just fallen into error or sin but desire to follow Him. This desire to follow Him and adhere to the Gospel is the difference between this group and the first group who disagree on what the Gospel actually is all about in the first place!
Finally, the Unsaved. We are to preach to them the Word with Power and Love in hopes to snatch some from the fire. They do not have the gift of the Holy Spirit to overcome sin, so we have NO right to judge them.
We are allowed to judge are the false teachers and false prophets or the “Alexander the Coppersmiths” of our day, and judge harshly, on their false stands and false presentations of Jesus Christ.
We are told to judge Christians who are more in love with their sin than the Lord, like the incestuous son in law at Corinth.
We are told to help those who intend to follow Christ but have fallen into sin or error with steady discernment and love.
We are warned not to judge or attempt to condemn the unsaved sinners who known not Christ and have no power over their sin natures; these will ‘know Him by our love for one another” and “by hearing the Word preached, in season and out of season”…
Oh, and we are warned by the Lord not to judge hypocritically those who sins mimic our own, as with the woman caught in adultery. “He who is without sin let him cast the first stone…”
There is a difference in rebuking those who pretend Christ,
those who intend Christ;
those who know not Christ
and those who are in sin that we ourselves commit.
We need to be smart about the Word, Chad and wield it with Authority.
Chad
I won’t delete them UNLESS you reference me (in a condescending, or nasty, or sarcastic way, etc.,) in your comments to other people – I will delete them. This includes promoting your ideas and trying to ‘convert’ others – I WILL delete your comments. If other commenter’s want to go to your blog they can go (because your blog address is linked to your name) but you will NOT push them your way. This goes for your pals too.
Besides I have rules, use them: http://discerningtheworld2.wordpress.com/about-this-blog/ – this page has been updated.
For now, I have don’t feel the need to comment, I’ve got things I am working on.
Lastly you said: >> Are you capable of at least recognizing that you may not have all the answer but that God could be speaking through even us emergents?
No, for the Word of God has all the answers, and Emergents contradict God’s Word.
Arise,
While I agree it is the role or the church to disciple (and when necessary, discipline) her members in the hopes that we might all grow to the fullness and stature of Christ, you appear to overlook one very, very important aspect in all of this.
Of all the instances in scripture where false teachers were called out and rebuked and “judged” what is the common denominator of them all? Do you know?
Whatever.
The things you say expose you and the emergent one world religion more. The more you people say the more people read, and the more they realise what’s going on the more they realise how they are being duped, and the more they will finally start to realise that God was not being funny when He said that many false Christ’s would come and deceive with doctrines of demons.
That in the last days things will become HORRIFIC, the most TERRIBLE things the world could ever imagine possible will happen; TRIBULATION and ARMAGEDDON. Everything you and your Emergies say contradicts the Word of God. So if it’s not from the Bible, the message is then and anti-God message, an anti-Christ. And by anti-Christ I am speaking about anti- the REAL Jesus Christ of the Bible and pro- false Christ that can’t for one second stop belittling Jesus Christ the Son of God, and can’t for one second stop turning the Bible into another message, a message that teaches another ‘gospel’ a new age gospel.
But I know who I am going to believe and it’s not you.
Right…that’s it. Over and out.
As always, you are more than welcome to actually show where this is true:
Everything you and your Emergies say contradicts the Word of God.
You continue to make this sweeping statements that are completely unfounded in any reality.
Name calling and seeing who can shout the loudest does not make what you have to say true.
Please, feel free to show where anything I have said or any of my friends stands in direct contradiction to Scripture. This is your chance to show me, a lowly pastor, the error of my ways and perhaps you can save an entire congregation from the pits of hell.
See above, Nic’s satanic writings which you agree with.
SIN
I’m sorry, DTW, but simply because you declare something as “satanic” does not make it so. If you are serious about being a “discerner” than I would think you would be one who does “close reading” of other peoples ideas and thoughts so that you can at least represent them fairly and accurately.
If you are serious about this than please, go through line by line and show how Nic is “satanic” in his writings. He has already told you directly that you have misinterpreted him from beginning to end.
nope. but the question was for arise.
So since the word of God has all the answers why should anyone listen to what you have to say?
lol, repeat: SIN
>> So since the word of God has all the answers why should anyone listen to what you have to say?
That’s why you should be listening to the Word of God because it has all the answers.
Do you believe God speaks through you, Deborah?
Word of God the Bible has all the answers.
All born again Christians have the Holy Spirit in them and He leads them into ALL truth of the Word of God, understanding and remembrance of Jesus Christ. Where is the Holy Spirit in your life that you do not know the answer to these questions you ask. If you were truly Christian you would never be asking me these questions.
I just love how you refuse to actually engage the Word of God. You can say that all you like but it means nothing without our being confronted by the Word and being formed and remade by it. This requires interpretation. So the task for us christians is to learn to listen to the Word and to one another as the Holy Spirit speaks through both, so that we might come to know the Truth (a person) even more and be conformed to his Image.
[DELETED - I have warned you Chad. Go comment on your own blog with your own emergent one world religion friends. You've pasted all your comments and mine, etc., elsewhere - should keep you busy for a longgggggg time - hopefully.]
Hi Deborah,
I feel abit exhausted just reading all this.
Don’t really want to get involved in this discussion but a few thoughts came up.
The ‘emergent’ movement is really getting momentum in all of it’s many branches(tentacles rather). The bizare is getting just more bizarre. What is in: Spiritual ‘portals’, shamanistic principles and manifestions, angel feathers, gold dust, liberalism, etc. etc. etc. On one extreme you have the ‘craziness’ of the charismatic movement and on the other you have the reformed intellectuals who are enjoying new found ‘freedom’ of thought and expression.
I see at first that you were patronised and later on kind of asked to engage in nice and civil debate.
I wonder if a nice debate would have any of them leave their stance? The answer is obviously no. One thing is certain- they will not offend anybody with their gospel and that is to be expected. They will grow rapidly in numbers as the end draw near because it was prophesied. They will eventually form part of a global tolerant religion and will gladly accept the coming ‘shaman’ who will be a wonderful and adorable person. Even more adorable than Obama.
Of course they all believe in Jesus. And that means they are all ‘saved’. They can prove it theologically. They are decent, courteous and even poetic, just like Jesus. It’s going to happen. It’s all been prophesied. Eventually, the elimination of the poor fundamentalist souls(who stubbornly stick to the Bible, shame) will seem so logical. It will be for world peace after all.
It’s just amazing that christians can defend Nic after they clearly saw what he wrote. And they still ask you to point out his errors. Wow. Shocking! Bizare… expected.
blessings sister
Hi Francois! Long time no see or blog should I say.
Indeed mind boggling, I’m still recovering. As you say, Nic’s article is so obvious, but yet… they are not interested.
Your comment is actually very similar on to an article I am going to publish within the next 30 min. Let me know if it hits the right spot.
D
[Edited: Make that 2 hours, not 30 minutes]
Here it is:
Love Casts Out All Hell: http://discerningtheworld2.wordpress.com/2009/07/04/love-casts-out-all-hell/
Did anyone catch that Ryan comment about demons not believing in Jesus? Do emergents have their own version of the Bible? What about Mark 5? “What have you to do with me, Jesus, Son of the Most High God?”
Yip I did. In fact the entire Emergent gang who comes and comments here read another book. I think it’s Gulliver’s Travels.
Comment here: 2009/06/30 at 9:53pm
And Ryan, they do believe Jesus exists, they believe He is the Son of God, they believe that He can torment them night and day, they believe.They believe He can destroy them in an instance. They don’t however following him, they follow Satan, hence Satan has been trying to destroy the line of Jesus since the beginning of time. Kinda just like this article that Nic wrote.
Also:
Philip. 2:9-11
9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:
10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
By saying what you have said you have pulled down the Divinity of Jesus Christ.
Acts 19:15
15 And the evil spirit answered and said to them, “I recognize Jesus, and I know about Paul, but who are you?” (These other were Jewish exorcists)
Matthew 8:29
29 And they cried out, saying, “What business do we have with each other, Son of God? Have You come here to torment us before the time?”
Mark 1:24
24 saying, “What business do we have with each other, Jesus of Nazareth? Have You come to destroy us? I know who You are–the Holy One of God!”
Mark 5:7
7 and shouting with a loud voice, he said, “What business do we have with each other, Jesus, Son of the Most High God? I implore You by God, do not torment me!”
Luke 4:34
34 “Let us alone! What business do we have with each other, Jesus of Nazareth? Have You come to destroy us? I know who You are–the Holy One of God!”
DELETED – Chad when you learn to be nice I’ll think about letting you comment here again. Not sure when that is going to be…
Ha! DTW, do you not notice that every time you get cornered and asked a question that exposes the truth about your loveless religion you delete me? If it weren’t so sad it would be hilarious.
Chad
>> “….the truth about your loveless religion ”
Ryan do you agree with that, what Chad said that we preach a LOVELESS religion?
Chad, I am sure you are copying and pasting all your comments else where as you have told me so many times. Go to Nics blog and comment there. Take some coffee with you and a picnic basket…
Run along now…
Chad reply to Amanda1 July, 2009
Love the Lord your God and your neighbor as yourself. Who is my neighbor? The answer comes back: Even your most hated enemy And how does one show love to such people? Not by beating them over the head with your own perceptions of truth but by being a friend, by being in community with others, by lending a helping hand, by caring for the sick, by giving a drink of water, a plate of food, a shelter. That is love.
> Matthew 5: 44But I tell you: Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, (NIV, NASB, Amplified, NLT, ESV, NKJV, ASV, TNIV)
44But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you; (KJV)
44But I tell you to love your enemies and pray for anyone who mistreats you. (CEV)
44 But I say to you, love your enemies. Pray for those who hurt you. (NCV)
44But I tell you, love your enemies. Ask God to do good to those who trouble you. (Worldwide English)
NOT ONE OF THESE mention your most hated enemy. As a matter of fact, even Bibles in other Languages dont have those words in.
This is where (I feel) one of the main roots of distortion lies in the extras. Put in an extra word or phrase, so people will understand it. Says who? Your enemy is your enemy. No. differentiation between two of those. In this scripture it doesnt say that your neighbour is even your most hated enemy. Chad, you are putting Mtt. 22:37-39 (Luk. 10:27) in the same sentence as Mtt. 5:44. You should know as a pastor not to do that? In fact, in Luk. 10, an expert in the law stood up to test Jesus with the question who is my neighbor?, Jesus went on and replied with a story about “A man was going down from Jerusalem to Jericho (NOT mentioning of what nationality the man was), and robbers stripped him (not mentioning the nationality of the robbers); these 2 people (ya, maybe representing these 2 nationalities) avoid the scène (didnt want to get involved, whether by law or other reasons) – priest , levite; then the Samaritan helped him. Jesus asked 36″Which of these three do you think was a neighbor to the man . . . they answered “The one who had mercy on him.” Then Jesus told this law-expert to go do the same. I often ask WHY DO people tend to add extras to the Word of God? because in doing so, you distort the original and the meaning thereof.
Chad said on July 2nd, 2009 at 13:37
Please, feel free to show where anything I have said or any of my friends stands in direct contradiction to Scripture. This is your chance to show me, a lowly pastor, the error of my ways and perhaps you can save an entire congregation from the pits of hell. Chad, the adding to the Scripture above, is one example to answer your question here. And please dont belittle yourself by calling yourself names (I highlighted your words). YOU are saying it Chad, not others. Go and talk things out with the LORD God, all by yourself; wait on Him and HE will show you the error(s) of your way(s); and Chad, YOU are the pastor / shepherd of that flock! They are YOUR responsibility, God will ask them of YOUR hand. DTW has got NOTHING to do with saving your congregation from the pits of hell (pheeewww, I cant believe such language and thoughts can come from a pastor ….) cecilia
C, don’t get too worked up over ‘Pastor’ Chad. He was the one who made the replica of my blog. He has a mind of filth. Unfortuantely for him and his 1/10 working braincell – he forgets some of his congregation has access to internet and have seen what he has done and the things he has said across the internet. They emailed me. Ooopsss for Chad. I think some of them even contacted Duke Divinity School and the Methodist whatever board he belongs too.
All I had to do was sit back and watch how one of his emergent friends betrayed him and how one person from his congregation found him commenting on my website and that let them to reading Nics website and Iggy’s stuff. Well…they didn’t take it well.
So leave Chad to his own devices. He burnt his toast a while ago already and does not even know it…probably never will.
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