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Peter Veysie from Ridgeway Ministries trying to ‘Bridge’ that Gap

Ridgeway Ministries - Peter VeysiePeter Veysie commented here under my Change Agents article:  Ee-mmergency – Releasing Christian youth into the fire 

Peter said:  “I am first of all hoping that you are a brother or sister in Christ and that your defence of the gospel is for the sake of Jesus and not because you are a very sad and irritated man or woman. I am also sad that we can’t chat to you because you are anonymous, but heh if you need some healing or someone to chat to you have my email address. I am heading up Change Agents in South Africa and am the Senior Pastor of Ridgeway Ministries and you are so far from the truth of what we do, it is frightening. Speak to me if you are brave enough and I will give you the truth and “the truth will set you free”. Pete”

I then found an interview Peter Veysie did on EmergingAfrica run by Nic Paton.   I did an article on Nic Paton here:   Satan the Trickster Embracing the Emerging Snake

My reply to Peter Veysie’s comment to me @ 2009/09/20 at 5:09am

[DTW comments in green]

[As you can clearly see my stand for the Gospel is for Jesus Christ and to WARN the people you lead astray with your NEW AGE Christian teaching which goes AGAINST the Gospel of Jesus Christ. I don’t need to chat to you face to face to know that you speak a false doctrine. Your smiling face will not hide the feelings you have, or the words that you speak that OPPOSE the gospel of Jesus Christ – unfortunately many will fall for it.   But I warn never the less for those who are seeking the TRUTH (there is only ONE truth and that is Jesus Christ the Son of God – not your fasle Christ with many truths).  And because they LOVE the Word of God, they will see through you and your new age rainbow/bridge where all faiths lead to one god.]

See related posts at the bottom of this article regarding the New Age  ‘Bridge or Rainbow’

Let’s get to Peter Veysie’s VERY revealing interview, shall we:

Interview: Peter Veysie by Nic Paton – Mon, 2008-11-24 13:48     [Nic Paton who believes that Jesus and Satan are one and the same]

Peter Veysie is the Senior Pastor of Ridgeway Ministries, Rivonia, Gauteng, South Africa. He is busy with a Doctorate looking at “Bridging the Gap between today’s church and tomorrow’s world in an African urban Context”.  His supervisors are Leonard Sweet and Christopher Peppler.

Peter, you describe yourself as Emerging; how long have you done this?
I reckon we have always been since we started in a garage with no ‘covering’ just relationships with other churches in the area and this was 15 years ago.

So, the first thing you “emerged” from was “authority oriented” church?
I don’t think it’s a good definition as I think that so called mainline (including now charismatic) are all wrestling with the issue of ecclesial authority verses Christ authority. We put rules together which come out of our own traditions and when they are so strongly entrenched in our church culture it’s then so hard to question them. I have always questioned things being a preacher’s kid and sometimes I will go back and relook and restore a tradition which I see was from God.

Do you think the advantages of being a Preachers Kid outweigh the disadvantages?
I do think we are a bit more aware of the real challenges of church and also a bit skeptical. As a PK I did go off the rails for a while, but had a calling on my life to be in ministry and am still in it 25 years later (I am now 46).

What distinguishes Ridgeway from other congregations, in terms of your corporate view of God, Truth, culture and scripture?
God is central and we understand the deity thru the “in the fleshness” and “out the boxness” (yes) of Jesus. Truth is the Word and it demands a radical redactionism (which means that we take a text and understand its original context and then put in the space of a context and explore it from here). For example if we were in Hillbrow and amongst street dweller, how would they put the story of the Prodigal son into their own context? It is radical in that it allows for space to know that One Word can express truth in a unique way to really know it. Culture is unique in each and every setting and our space embraces a fusion of cultures all making an equal and valid contribution; no one is more special and or right.

Scripture is central and we are always open to question it and dialogue with it, especially when we are together. We don’t have all the answers but we do celebrate the mystery. No two Sunday’s are the same: This Sunday we have a time of interactive meditation and prayer. We put bowels out for people to wash each other’s feet. Candles and incense for prayer and image and music. Colour and light. But this is not what we do each Sunday. We can also celebrate with song and good music and have a word shared and then debated.

So do you think debate is a key aspect in your ethos – it’s not highly rated in many evangelical circles?
Not always. We will always ask if there is a query or someone has something to add and the reality is that people want to respond and question. I do believe that preaching especially among the Greeks began in dialogue and most of Jesus’ teaching was in the form of debate and dialogue.

You mentioned “fusion of cultures”; does this put you in danger of “syncretism”?
No – Jesus Christ is always central and allows us the freedom to interact without threat. We need to be firm in what we believe and then free to serve and care. The sad thing about Christianity often is exclusivity. We join in the mission of Jesus Christ who’s greatest commandment is to “love one another”. As church, we find it easy to love each other, but not so easy to love those whose belief system may be different to ours. Have you hugged a Hindu today or blessed a Buddhist or met with a Muslim friend today?

You said you viewed Christian Exclusivity as sad. What do you think is at the root of this, and briefly what might your “doctrine of Inclusion” look like?
I would like to think that Jesus is always inclusive. I have been reading a book by John Burke called “No perfect people allowed” and it really resonates with the Ridgeway heart of what church is all about. We want folk to feel that they are able to freely come and bring their friends who are seriously skeptical about church and then to see that there is a non-judgmental accepting and loving space for them to experience. They also have the freedom to ask questions and to know that they have the freedom to do so. We have as our motto “Serving and caring for people with Jesus’ love” and this is important in that we are not watering down the gospel (Good News) but rather filling up the spaces that have been caused by exclusivity in the past.

I didn’t find any mention of terms like “emergent” on your website, how do you view this?
Yes. This is on purpose because I am very wary of labels and when you put yourself out there, even like this, people will always find a million reasons why you are not emergent. We often look like an average any other church. Church is (/ South Africa “are”) the people and we are full of shit (a very biblical word referred to as rubbish), and this comes out because we are human. Authenticity is about acknowledging this.

That’s gross – what’s the Hebrew/Greek again?
Hebrew “aphar” – “mud” and Greek skudalong – dog’s dung. Shit in English get’s close to this word.

In your pastoral ministry do you make room for the “dark side” of life rather than suppressing or ignoring it?
Absolutely – We all have a dark side and need to get real with this. Jesus says ‘Cast the first stone if you have no sin and they all walked away. Jesus says say’s don’t judge and then walks away. I am always reminding our folk and myself to be honest and real in the zone of dark and light. I just think that in order to overcome addictions, we need to invite “The Light” into our darkness. Most of us think of smoking, drinking etc. but I think God is a lot more concerned about how we treat each other and what we do about justice.

You have female elders and pastors; has this ever been an issue?
Yes. I lost all my elders except for two beautiful ex Anglicans 5 years ago because we made a clear stand on this. We also got flack from friends who felt we had flipped out. Crazy when you think that the first Apostle was a woman… Mary Magdalene.

Do you get any negative sentiment from other churches as an Emergent congregation, and why?
Not really as we find that most other churches are pretty much just getting on with their stuff and are not too bothered. We have had a number of burnt pastors join us and also folk who are tired of the lack of unity. I still connect with most of the other churches in our area and love them as part of us.

Where do you think the Emergent movement is going, both globally and in South Africa?
I always pray against a fad. Jesus was emergent and still is and so I think we are just following in His precious footsteps. He loves and serves and cares thru us and has justice and peace on his heart. I pray that our hearts are becoming more conversational and that we are learning from each other. Even other religions as Jesus taught have something for us to learn from. Globally I am excited at what’s going down. We need to stamp African onto the church and this is our challenge – eish !!!

I note you have a regular but separate African Languages service. How feasible would it be for you to have only one service?
This is not seperate, but rather flows from our time together. We have times of integration and times when some of the folk want to extend their time of worship in their mother tongue. It’s more like a home group. Lloyd Martin also runs a younger group which caters for those who really struggle with anything that even smells like church. They continue their conversations in the pub.

What is their tipple of choice?
Heh we embrace the joy of the fine golden liquid and the red and white brilliance of the grape as well as the tender but fine non-alcoholic beverages.

What facets of a full spirituality do you or your congregation lack – where are the growth opportunities?
We are so far from the place where we need to be and yet in a small way we are on the Way. It is so easy to build another pattern or group or even sect without even thinking that you are and we need to guard against this. I do feel that a huge opportunity is to put Jesus at the centre of any situation and then just see what happens. Life in all its fullness starts to ignite and love begins to come shining thru.

“Seeing what happens’ is not a widely celebrated ecclesial approach (aphar happens too) can you give us some examples?
I think it was Spurgeon who said ” I set myself on fire in the morning and people come and watch me burn!”  [DTW note:  NO, this was John Wesley, a Word of Faith, Latter Rain, Manifest Sons of God (Metaphysical Cult) preacher.  Spurgeon would never say something like this.]  I think he meant by this that when he had moments with the Lord of his life it was a fiery zone in that it was a real connection with the Almighty. When he had been in this space then it was a real “seeing what happens”. I think we are able to discern between what is God and what is not. When we get to see what God is doing among the poor and those who have little and we see the joy of Spirit in spite of the circumstance then we see Jesus at the centre and see what happens!

So what in a nutshell is that “fresh breath”, why is 2008 different to say 2005, 2000, 1990?
No difference at all. We are just needing to wake up each day and smell what God is doing in our world and get alongside of poverty, justice, aids and other issues that are deep caverns between the church and the world often , and then find ways to breathe into these situations. We have so much of ”together” to learn about. Our hearts are about Good News and what this means for the next generation. We are one beggar showing other beggars where there might be food.

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26 comments to Peter Veysie from Ridgeway Ministries trying to ‘Bridge’ that Gap

  • Amanda

    Veysie:

    I would like to think that Jesus is always inclusive.

    He is not:

    “When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne. Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. And he will place the sheep on his right, but the goats on the left. Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me, I was naked and you clothed me, I was sick and you visited me, I was in prison and you came to me.’ Then the righteous will answer him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you drink? And when did we see you a stranger and welcome you, or naked and clothe you? And when did we see you sick or in prison and visit you?’ And the King will answer them, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brothers, you did it to me.’ “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. For I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink, I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, naked and you did not clothe me, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.’ Then they also will answer, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to you?’ Then he will answer them, saying, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.’ And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”
    (Matthew 25:31-46)

    Note that the people are separated by what they are, sheep or goats. A goat does not turn into a sheep by doing good works!

    In your pastoral ministry do you make room for the “dark side” of life rather than suppressing or ignoring it?

    Jesus Christ did not die on the Cross to make room for our dark [and only] side. Neither did he suppress or ignore it.

    as it is written: “None is righteous, no, not one; no one understands; no one seeks for God. All have turned aside; together they have become worthless; no one does good, not even one.” “Their throat is an open grave; they use their tongues to deceive.” “The venom of asps is under their lips.” “Their mouth is full of curses and bitterness.” “Their feet are swift to shed blood; in their paths are ruin and misery, and the way of peace they have not known.” “There is no fear of God before their eyes.” Now we know that whatever the law says it speaks to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be stopped, and the whole world may be held accountable to God. For by works of the law no human being will be justified in his sight, since through the law comes knowledge of sin. But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from the law, although the Law and the Prophets bear witness to it– the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction: for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God’s righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins. It was to show his righteousness at the present time, so that he might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.
    (Romans 3:10-26)

    Veysie’s answer:

    Absolutely – We all have a dark side and need to get real with this. Jesus says ‘Cast the first stone if you have no sin and they all walked away. Jesus says say’s don’t judge and then walks away. I am always reminding our folk and myself to be honest and real in the zone of dark and light. I just think that in order to overcome addictions, we need to invite “The Light” into our darkness.

    No, we need to repent of our sins and believe the Gospel. Mark 1:15. What really happened when Jesus Christ saved the adulterous woman:

    The scribes and the Pharisees brought a woman who had been caught in adultery, and placing her in the midst they said to him, “Teacher, this woman has been caught in the act of adultery. Now in the Law Moses commanded us to stone such women. So what do you say?” This they said to test him, that they might have some charge to bring against him. Jesus bent down and wrote with his finger on the ground. And as they continued to ask him, he stood up and said to them, “Let him who is without sin among you be the first to throw a stone at her.” And once more he bent down and wrote on the ground. But when they heard it, they went away one by one, beginning with the older ones, and Jesus was left alone with the woman standing before him. Jesus stood up and said to her, “Woman, where are they? Has no one condemned you?” She said, “No one, Lord.” And Jesus said, “Neither do I condemn you; go, and from now on sin no more.”]] Again Jesus spoke to them, saying, “I am the light of the world. Whoever follows me will not walk in darkness, but will have the light of life.”
    (John 8:3-12)

    From the interview:

    Jesus was emergent and still is and so I think we are just following in His precious footsteps.

    Actually, no. Jesus Christ did not emerge. The golden calf emerged. [A Sarel van der Merwe quote.] Read Matthew 25:31-46 again. Emergents latch onto the good works and reject the separation of sheep and goats, judgement, eternal punishment and even the glorious Second Coming of Jesus Christ.

    Even other religions as Jesus taught have something for us to learn from.

    What! No way! Where is that in the Bible?

    Not here:

    Blessed are those who wash their robes, so that they may have the right to the tree of life and that they may enter the city by the gates. Outside are the dogs and sorcerers and the sexually immoral and murderers and idolaters, and everyone who loves and practices falsehood.
    (Revelation 22:14-15)

    The emergent church is no place for Christians.

  • cecilia

    Peter Veysie’s interview

    “Have you hugged a Hindu today or blessed a Buddhist or met with a Muslim friend today?”

    > jah well duh! Some people do this without the focus of culture, need or contact born out of “work-mentality”! I am in a overwhelming Indiër Church, where at all meetings, not just Sundays, there are a constant and surprisingly constant flow of Hindu’s, Muslim, Zulu and oft people who think they can be Buddhist together with who-ever they believe in. I find that mostly the visitors of these and other faiths’, are not open to be hugged, BUT WHY oh why do we always want to hug? A touch on the shoulder or hand or arm is a sign of caring, or comfort, of acceptance and could well lead to mutual acceptance and an openness to receive the word of the Gospel of Jesus Christ. After these got used to “your face”, they become more open to the physical contact such as a hug, and they either open up to the Gospel of the LORD Jesus Christ, or they don’t. but the “being drawn” come from their side – they often come back to be between this group of caring people. we’ve often found that long-term relationships (implemented from your side) are a trap from the enemy, drawing you into the who’s, what’s, why’s and when’s of other false religions – idolatry; because most other religions (especially Muslim and Jehovah Witnesses) wants to win others over “to their side”, therefore they do good to you, make you feel the most important, give without (human) measure, etc. My point being, you DON’t have to celebrate others’ feasts etc. to show them you care for them as individuals. Again I’m putting forward the word of the LORD God about other “heathen” people and their faiths / gods :

    Exodus 23:13 – “Be careful to do everything I have said to you. Do not invoke the names of other gods; do not let them be heard on your lips.

    Deuteronomy 4:19 – And when you look up to the sky and see the sun, the moon and the stars, all the heavenly array, do not be enticed into bowing down to them and worshiping things the LORD your God has apportioned to all the nations under heaven.

    Jeremiah 44:8 – Why provoke me to anger with what your hands have made, burning incense to other gods in Egypt, where you have come to live? You will destroy yourselves and make yourselves an object of cursing and reproach among all the nations on earth.

    Ezekiel 20:32 – ” ‘You say, “We want to be like the nations, like the peoples of the world, who serve wood and stone.” But what you have in mind will never happen.
    and we can end this by quoting:

    Deuteronomy 12:29-31 (New International Version) – 29 The LORD your God will cut off before you the nations you are about to invade and dispossess. But when you have driven them out and settled in their land, 30 and after they have been destroyed before you, be careful not to be ensnared by inquiring about their gods, saying, “How do these nations serve their gods? We will do the same.” 31 You must not worship the LORD your God in their way, because in worshiping their gods, they do all kinds of detestable things the LORD hates. They even burn their sons and daughters in the fire as sacrifices to their gods.
    AND Jeremiah 10 – God and Idols

    1 Hear what the LORD says to you, O house of Israel.
    2 This is what the LORD says: “Do not learn the ways of the nations or be terrified by signs in the sky, though the nations are terrified by them.
    3 For the customs of the peoples are worthless; they cut a tree out of the forest, and a craftsman shapes it with his chisel.
    4 They adorn it with silver and gold; they fasten it with hammer and nails so it will not totter.
    5 Like a scarecrow in a melon patch, their idols cannot speak; they must be carried because they cannot walk. Do not fear them; they can do no harm nor can they do any good.”
    6 No one is like you, O LORD; you are great, and your name is mighty in power.
    7 Who should not revere you, O King of the nations? This is your due. Among all the wise men of the nations and in all their kingdoms, there is no one like you.
    8 They are all senseless and foolish; they are taught by worthless wooden idols.
    9 Hammered silver is brought from Tarshish and gold from Uphaz. What the craftsman and goldsmith have made is then dressed in blue and purple, all made by skilled workers.
    10 But the LORD is the true God; he is the living God, the eternal King. When he is angry, the earth trembles; the nations cannot endure his wrath.
    11 “Tell them this: ‘These gods, who did not make the heavens and the earth, will perish from the earth and from under the heavens.’ ”
    12 But God made the earth by his power; he founded the world by his wisdom and stretched out the heavens by his understanding.
    13 When he thunders, the waters in the heavens roar; he makes clouds rise from the ends of the earth. He sends lightning with the rain and brings out the wind from his storehouses.
    14 Everyone is senseless and without knowledge; every goldsmith is shamed by his idols. His images are a fraud; they have no breath in them.
    15 They are worthless, the objects of mockery; when their judgment comes, they will perish. 16 He who is the Portion of Jacob is not like these, for he is the Maker of all things, including Israel, the tribe of his inheritance, the LORD Almighty is his name.

    HEED THIS WARNING:
    Deuteronomy 18:9 – [ Detestable Practices ] When you enter the land the LORD your God is giving you, do not learn to imitate the detestable ways of the nations there.
    Think twice before engaging into observance of holy days of heathen nations! God won’t be mocked.

    Our outreaches in the form of feeding schemes is about bringing/preaching the gospel and then serve the people with food and other necessities. They’re welcome to “come to church”, but we go to them, caring, loving UNCONDITIONALLY, not “building relationship” as focus. We do this not to be seen or to be a known people, but for spreading the Gospel and the love of the LORD Jesus Christ.

    When people start to talk about “exclusivity of the past”, it’s like taking a dissecting knife and by our own standards and views, we put people in boxes, labeling WHO we see as outside, and who inside, as accepted, or excluded.

    One comment on language preferences of Peter Veysie:

    Proverbs 17:27 – A man of knowledge uses words with restraint, and a man of understanding is even-tempered.

    Ephesians 4:29 – Do not let any unwholesome talk come out of your mouths, but only what is helpful for building others up according to their needs, that it may benefit those who listen.

    Ephesians 4:29 (New Living Translation) – Don’t use foul or abusive language. Let everything you say be good and helpful, so that your words will be an encouragement to those who hear them.

    > “Hebrew “aphar” – “mud” and Greek “skudalong” – dog’s dung. Shit in English get’s close to this word.”

    BUT IT IS NOT the english word for it! So if you really wanted to say anything at all, you should have used “mud” / “dog’s dung”, NOT the foul language that you have in your heart!! You and those who agree with you, might be full of ……, but I and many others are not! Man, even in his sinful state, contain attributes of God, created in the image of the living God. And again so, when we confess our sin, we are forgiven. Therefore cleansed of all unrighteousness (1Jhn 1:9 – If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness.). So human beings might be full of “unrighteousness”, but not full of (whatever the author wrongly by his own hearts’ intentions, seem to perceive people to be full of!!)

    Darkness …. Light …. Now this is where you can curse yourself and use your foul words! Here’s the word of God:

    John 8:12 [ The Validity of Jesus’ Testimony ] When Jesus spoke again to the people, he said, “I am the light of the world. Whoever follows me will never walk in darkness, but will have the light of life.”

    John 12:46 – I have come into the world as a light, so that no one who believes in me should stay in darkness.

    1 Thessalonians 5:5 – You are all sons of the light and sons of the day. We do not belong to the night or to the darkness.

    Ephesians 5:11 – Have nothing to do with the fruitless deeds of darkness, but rather expose them.

    > “We need to invite “The Light” into our darkness. Most of us think of smoking, drinking etc. but I think God is a lot more concerned about how we treat each other and what we do about justice.”

    THIS IS SO WRONG!! We don’t “invite” the light into your darkness! When we believe in Jesus Christ, darkness goes and the Light comes in! (I can give you many other scripture saying this).

    And again, again, again, over and over the Emergent(s) goes to “good deeds”, society, culture! BUT, all the things (sin) we do, that which take the place of Jesus Christ and scripture in our lives, are “fruitless deeds of darkness”. Coming into the light of the Lord Jesus Christ, either expose these by Holy Spirit’s conviction, or via others walking in the Light, exposing it and submitting the truth of the full redemption work of Christ Jesus on the cross.

    2 Peter 2:1-3, 17-19
    False Teachers and Their Destruction

    1But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them—bringing swift destruction on themselves. 2Many will follow their shameful ways and will bring the way of truth into disrepute. 3In their greed these teachers will exploit you with stories they have made up. Their condemnation has long been hanging over them, and their destruction has not been sleeping.

    17These men are springs without water and mists driven by a storm. Blackest darkness is reserved for them. 18For they mouth empty, boastful words and, by appealing to the lustful desires of sinful human nature, they entice people who are just escaping from those who live in error. 19They promise them freedom, while they themselves are slaves of depravity—for a man is a slave to whatever has mastered him.

    > “. . .the first Apostle was a woman… Mary Magdalene”

    Oh goodie! Here we go with the “gospel according to Mary Magdalene….”! Here’s what I could gather:
    An apostle (apostolos) is defined by Liddell and Scott in A Greek-English Lexicon as a messenger, ambassador or envoy. An apostle is someone who bears an important message.
    During the Middle Ages (in early Christian writings) she was called apostola apostolorum, which, can be translated in two ways: “apostle TO the apostles,” and “apostle OF the apostles.”
    When translated as “apostle OF the apostles,” Mary Magdalene is placed in a position of leadership, you might say, a “more equal” member of the group than the rest. Think about using the words Lord of lords etc., it gives the sense of one person distinguished in some or other way.

    When translated as “apostle TO the apostles,” however, the scope of Mary Magdalene’s commission is vastly diminished. Her task takes on a rather “secretarial” connotation as a messenger to only one group of people, specifically, the male followers of Jesus. The men, in turn, had the responsibility of carrying Christ’s message to the rest of the world.
    Mary Magdalene TOGETHER WITH Mary, mother of James, were both the first “witnesses” send to tell the disciples that Jesus rose from the dead. (Matthew 28:1; Mark 16:1
    > ((The most reliable early manuscripts and other ancient witnesses do not have Mark 16:9-20 – stating that Jesus told Mary Magdalene to go tell the disciples.))

    Important is that we should remember women in Biblical times NEVER walked/traveled alone! Taken from this, she couldn’t have been alone whilst Jesus appeared with the urgent message for the disciples!

    In 1 Corinthians 15, Mary Magdalene was not even mentioned as such.

    Oh well, I’m not commenting on the rest of this “in abundance of words…….” Accept that I’ve never seen any one ever, from Adam to now, who can “smell what God is doing in our world” or who can “breathe into these situations”. So now it is not doing anymore, you just smell and breathe….. oh boy, I’m gonna stay indoors for a long time if I have to do that! The Bible (Scripture / Word of God), Jesus Himself, tells us to love our neighbor as ourselves (as we love ourselves?), not go do same things your neighbor is doing to try win them over for Christ!

    DTW, what scares me (like hell), is that these people who are keeping the Ramadan fast with their Ramadan friends, they are going to put up documents / structures which will say: this is what they do, and it works. Let us do the same, cause it will work. Not keeping in mind (and heart?) that God Almighty said:

    Deuteronomy 12: 31 – You must not worship the LORD your God in their way, because in worshiping their gods, they do all kinds of detestable things the LORD hates.

    cecilia

  • Discerning the World

    Oh thank you for that C. Great stuff.

    I was going to comment on the Mary Magdalene thing but I ran out of energy…having to read ‘mud’ day in and day out can take it’s toll.

    This whole gospel of Mary Magdelene is also very much ingrained in that blasphemous movie the Da Vinci Code.

    In fact I would like to ask Peter where on earth he gets this idea from??

    Come Peter, let’s dialogue out in the open.

    I just feel that meeting one on one would just not do this discussion any justice as I am sure there are tons of people out there who would love to know as well. And we can’t invite all of them for coffee – so virtual coffee it shall be.

  • cecilia

    the Emergent Church overall does not get these “knowledge” by themselves – they fall under teachers and so on (leaders in their language), who indoctrinate them with this, and these “little ones” look up to them in leadership because they think, hey, they’re leaders, they didn’t get there without studying! agh, really?! more than three quaters of my own studying came via Internet (thank God for this marvellous yet very dangerous took in these the last days!). anyhows, they the leaders, get most of there info from …. wait for it …. the books and gospels of different people which was excluded from the Bible as we know it (the Apocrypha); AND from other religions / faiths (work- and good deeds related, like Islam….).
    let’s keep standing! cecilia

  • Michael Anthony

    Let me tell you a story.

    Last week I was talking to a Nigerian Christian. We got talking about the good Sheppard, you know when you fellowship with Christians you always land up talking about our Lord and Saviour.

    In any case, I mentioned to him that sheep have an incredible acuteness and sensitivity to the Sheppard’s voice, they refuse to obey the command of anyone who even sounds similar. Sheep are very SELECTIVE over what they eat. Interestingly enough they also never eat the root of what they eat (grass). (So that it grown again. Wow, pretty neat hey?)

    So, now to goats. He used to herd goats, this Nigerian. Told me something very interesting – goats just devour everything; anything in trees that they can reach, roots, plants, weeds. Wherever there are goats there is just barren land.

    Then he told me about a day when one of his goats was at the entrance of the hut writhing in pain. Literally shaking itself to death. He ate a poisonous root.

    Quite common with goats.

    God Bless.

  • Peter Veysie

    Why don’t you give me a call on [EDITED: Number removed] and we can find Truth together. You are surrounded by beautiful Christians on this list with the green marks on the right of the page who love Jesus Christ but really despise your judgment before even having a discussion. Be carefilled and be more like Jesus.
    With love in Jesus Christ my Lord and my Saviour

    Peter Veysie – please phone – you seem like you are in SA and are poor,lonely, soul and bitter soul – but heh I might be wrong and find you are precious. I hope to find the latter

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Peter Veysie

    If you payed any attention you would remember that you commented under the Change Agent article here: http://www.discerningtheworld.com/2009/08/22/ee-mmergency-releasing-christian-youth-into-the-fire. Shortly after that you did this interview with Nic Paton and gave such wonderful non-Christian, unbiblical answers.

    >> …and we can find Truth together.

    And I have the TRUTH. His name is Jesus Christ the Son of God- The WAY and TRUTH and the LIFE. You appear to not have the truth yet, otherwise you would not have made such a ridiculous comment. So what are you doing being a pastor?? I recommend you stop as you lead the youth astray and will be held accountable to God.

    Anyhow, I don’t do private conversations. If you can’t write it here for all to see then… not my problem. Your interview with Nic was made public, and is open to some serious questioning.

  • Oh yeah…I forgot to add.

    The shepherd dude also told me that when a sheep goes astray and keeps going astray, well the shepherd has no choice but to break the sheep’s legs. Then the sheep stays in one place, has to get carried everywhere and grows closer to the shepherd during that time.

    Oops, sorry, am I interrupting ‘summin?

  • Michael Anthony

    Peter Veysie,

    I have asked DTW for your phone number. Please expect a call from a few very friendly people [apologies if the background call centre echo is a bit annoying, but at least it will ease your need to be called]. They love discussion too, plus you can insult them – no problem – it gets lost in translation. Something emergents and post modernists are used too by now.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Michael

    Sorry I didn’t even look at the number, just deleted it.

    Peter

    better yet come here and chat :) Tell us what you think, quote some scripture to back up what you think and then we will help you out.

  • Dear Deborah,

    I give you my highest commendation to Deborah of Discerning the World and Steven Hayes for exposing Peter Veysie, Senior Pastor of Ridgeway Ministries. I am grateful that you were able to warn as many saints as possible on your Discerning the World site. I will try to help expand your warning about Mr. Veysie and other Emergent Church plague pied pipers in our own media database and various radio ministries we frequent.
    We will sound the alarm on His Holy Hill reflecting the following letter to Peter Veysie.

    Thank the Lord for brave soldiers in Christ like Deborah and Steve who are willing to defend the faith! Well done thy good and faithful servants!

    Kindest regards in Christ,
    James Sundquist
    Director
    Rock Salt Publishing
    http://www.voiceoftruthradio.com/james.htm

    ———————————————————–
    Dear Peter Veysie,

    Your email if public domain on the Internet. Your website is published by other websites and easy to find:

    If you don’t want to receive any emails that might disagree with you or any appeals from Christian victims, then you should state that on your website or wherever your email appears. I am preparing an answer for your questions and other responses I have received which I will send out to you and our media database. I think it is legitimate to ask if you believe so strongly in opposing ad hominem attacks on brothers in Christ, then why are you attacking me? It is also apparent from your email that you did not believe in exposing and opposing false teachers. And of course it is perfectly acceptable for Leonard Sweet to mock and belittle Online Discernment Ministries who are simply being good Bereans, obeying the Apostle Paul to study the Scriptures to see if these things (Sweet and Warren) are teaching be true.

    Your response is very illuminating and will be very useful it helping us warn the rest of the body of Christ in South Africa and wherever else your name appears. It is indeed tragic that when pastors like you who are supposed to be watchmen on the wall no longer protect or warn the people but attack and discredit those who are not derelict watchmen on the wall. I will be sure to warn and sound the alarm to the many ministries I know in South Africa and Africa about you. If it is true that your interview stating Christianity is not exclusive where you state: “The sad thing about Christianity often is exclusivity.” Source: http://www.discerningtheworld.com/2009/09/20/peter-veysie-from-ridgeway-ministries-trying-to-bridge-that-gap/#more-6279, and that you promote the opposite of what Scripture states: “Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.” Acts 4:12, then you are a false brother and therefore NOT a Christian, and we are right in marking and exposing you and warning the Church that you are reprobate and apostate.

    I am also confident that all of the church and Christians who have been dismembered and bludgeoned by Rick Warren’s Global Peace Plan will be comforted by your response as well! Your response is quite typical of Purpose Driven Pastors against any “resisters” who are driven out of their churches.

    Sincerely in Christ,

    James Sundquist

    ———————————————————–

    On May 24, 2010, at 2:55 AM, Peter Veysie wrote:

    James – How on earth did you get my email address and what kind of idiot are you to belittle and judge another brother who is one who loves Jesus and is a major role model to me ???? – get a life bru as we say is South Africa !!!!!

    Peter Veysie
    Senior Pastor
    Ridgeway Ministries.

    ———————————————————–

    From: James Sundquist [mailto:rock.salt@verizon.net]
    Sent: 22 May 2010 10:24 PM
    To: jean@ridgewaym.co.za; peter@ridgewaym.co.za
    Subject: How Leonard Sweet Corrupts Scripture and Former Roman Catholic Priest Richard Bennett video Exposing Sweet and Emerging Church news release

    Dear Pastors and Members of Ridgeway Ministries,

    Regarding Leonard Sweet, I invite you to consider the following.

    Kindest regards in Christ,

    James Sundquist
    Director
    Rock Salt Publishing
    http://www.voiceoftruthradio.com/james.htm

    ******

    Dear President Robin Baker, Dean, Faculty and Administration of George Fox University and fellow defenders of The Faith,

    Please be alerted to the following news release concerning Leonard Sweet vs. Scripture:

    http://www.deceptioninthechurch.com/leonardsweetquotes.html

    &

    http://www.crossroad.to/Quotes/Church/post-modern/leonard-sweet.htm

    Also, I invite you to hear former Roman Catholic priest (22 years) Richard Bennett, President and Founder of Berean Beacon video exposing Leonard Sweet and Emerging Church:

    Richard Bennett, who also taught at Multnomah Bible College (now also becoming increasingly mystical) will be sounding the alarm on His Holy Hill later this month when he releases his DVD on the Mystic Plague in the Church. Having been a Roman Catholic priest for 22 years, he knows as much as anyone about the false teachings of the very Roman Catholic mystics that Leonard Sweet so admirably quotes. Richard Bennett is shocked that Christians leaders would promote the very heretics he just escaped from.

    I also invite you to consider Pastor Bob DeWaay’s new book comparing Emerging Church to Scripture at:
    http://cicministry.org/ [EDITED BY DTW: It has come to our attention recently that Bob DeWaay is TULIP Calvinist (see what calvinism is about here: http://www.discerningtheworld.com/2010/04/13/calvinism-a-heretical-doctrine-thats-what-the-bible-says . As much as Bob DeWaay’s material on the Emergent church is excellent. DTW will not promote him.]

    In Leonard Sweet’s response ) to online discernment ministries who are simply good Bereans searching the Scriptures to see if “these things (Sweet’s teachings) “be true”, Leonard Sweet attacks these defenders of the faith, but gives absolutely no Scriptural refutation, as the Apostle Paul requires, and ODMs have done, as I document in the websites enclosed in this letter. I remind Mr. Sweet that slanderers and those who bear false witness against a brother will not enter the Kingdom of God.

    In this response Leonard Sweet uses Colossians Chapter 3 to defend his own teaching and philosophy. But Colossians refutes the very Colossian Heresy that Sweet espouses:

    “See to it that no one takes you captive through philosophy and empty deception, according to the tradition of men, according to the elementary principles of the world, rather than according to Christ.” (Colossians 2:8)

    In other words mixing Eastern and Western philosophy, exactly what Sweet’s Cosmic Christ (and Rick Warren) and many Emerging Leaders promote. Many scholars confirm that gnosticism, mysticism and a higher spiritual formation experience and its variations is what the Colossian heresy was referring.
    See:

    http://cicministry.org/commentary/issue69.htm

    Sweet further states in his response to defenders of the Faith:

    “Jesus did not come to make us divine. Jesus came to show us how to be authentically what God made us to be–human. Because of the culture in

    which we live, I have encouraged the daily ritual of starting the day by standing in front of a mirror and saying: “God is God and I am not.””

    It is true that God did not come to make us divine, but which Scripture (that Sweet can’t cite) teaches that Jesus came to teach us how to be authentically

    more human? This is completely heretical! Jesus did not come to teach use how to be more human but appease his Father’s wrath through the

    substitutionary atonement, and to crucify the old human (man) and become a New Creation, that many of Sweet’s friends and colleagues renounce in the

    Emerging Church Movement.

    Leonard Sweet may very well be friends with his fellow Emergent Church leaders such as Brian McLaren and others like Rick Warren and Richard Foster (another Carl Jung promoter), but Scripture states:

    “know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God.” James 4:4

    So Sweet should not be simply critiquing Brian McLaren, rather exposing his deeds of darkness and publicly marking him and other mystics as a false teachers not quoting them and promoting them and repenting of the promoting them himself and stumbling countless children of the Most High God!

    Finally, Leonard Sweet gives thanks for being introduced to Joseph Campbell (“Power of Myth”) disciple of occultist Carl Jung [whom Rick Warren — a collaborator with Leonard Sweet] promotes in his SHAPE Personality Temperament Divination Profiling that I documented in my own book Who’s Driving the Purpose Driven Church (Published by Southwest Radio Church swrc.com), also published in The Conservative Theological Journal at Tyndale Theological Seminary and the Journal of Biblical Apologetics, and now posted on

    Youtube at: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-qW6aroPRx8

    I find it ironic that Leonard Sweet and his colleague Rick Warren would BOTH threaten whom Rick Warren call “resisters” and “enemies of the 21st Century” and Sweet himself says “change of be changed…Reinvent yourself for the 21st Century or die.” (Leonard Sweet, Soul Tsunami: Sink or Swim in the New Millennium Culture (Zondervan, 1999), p. 74-75). If you want to find out what happens to saints in churches who do resist these change agents? Read the case studies in my second book Rick Warren’s Global Peace Plan vs. Scriptural Teachings on Peace at theperfectpeaceplan.com. Both Rick Warren and Rick Warren are bitter/sweet as Scripture records sweet to the taste but bitter to the victims:

    “Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!”
    Isaiah 5:20

    Sincerely in Christ,

    James Sundquist
    Director
    Rock Salt Publishing
    http://www.voiceoftruthradio.com/james.htm

    ———————————————————–

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    James Sundquist

    Hi James, thanks for your effort in emailing Peter Veysie but you were waisting your time. He is a Change Agent. http://www.discerningtheworld.com/2009/08/22/ee-mmergency-releasing-christian-youth-into-the-fire/

  • Elmarie A

    Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Have a look at this. Could this be a false that Steve Hayes on his blog claims he received an email from James Sundquist.
    It is an exact replica of what James posted on DTW ????

    Exposing Peter Veysie?
    Steve Hayes’s picture
    Mon, 2010-05-24 20:06 — Steve Hayes

    I just received the most extraordinary e-main from one James Sundquist:

    === begin quote ===
    I give you my highest commendation to Deborah of Discerning the World and
    Steven Hayes for exposing Peter Veysie, Senior Pastor of Ridgeway
    Ministries. I am grateful that you were able to warn as many saints as
    possible on your Discerning the World site. I will try to help expand
    your warning about Mr. Veysie and other Emergent Church plague pied pipers
    in our own media database and various radio ministries we frequent. We
    will sound the alarm on His Holy Hill reflecting the following letter to
    Peter Veysie.
    === end quote ===

    Now I only know Peter Veysie from his occasional posts and comments here, and I certainly don’t know enough about him or his views to “expose” him. I also haven’t looked at the “Discerning the world” site since the gratuitously attacked Nic Paton about 18 months ago, without actually disclosing the nature of his alleged offence.

    So I would like to assure Peter Veysie that I have not “exposed” him in “Discerning” the world or anywhere else. Most of the posts there seem to manifest the works of the flesh rather than the fruit of the spirit, wranhling, Jealousy, backbiting and the like, and never having found anything edifying there, I don’t read it.

  • Elmarie A

    James Sundquist

    James did you send this email to Steve Hayes ??

    Your answer would be valued thank you.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    James Sundquist

    I didn’t actually read your comment properly. But I must say there is NO ways that Steve Hayes would ever agree with me or expose Peter Veysie (as all these guys all fall into the same Emergent camp). Steve Hayes are friends with Nic Paton and Nic Paton interviewed Peter Veysie.

    So judging by your comment and what I know about Steve and pals, something is not right here…

  • Dear Deborah,
    I agree with you and heard from Steve Hayes who confirmed your words. Somehow I got the impression from the blog of his name. I agree he had nothing to with exposing Veysie.
    Thanks for the clarification!

    btw, if you would like to email me, I will send you my more comprehensive expose on Leonard Sweet (Veysie’s role model).

    James

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    James

    I know all about Sweet. But if you want you can email your stuff to me (in a nice written format) and I can put it up as an article for you as an expose by yourself and link back to you. Do note that due to times that are a changing and people’s beliefs change faster than they change their underwear, I ain’t endorsing anyone. If I put your article up you shall be under scrutiny by everyone who reads this blog. If you are ok, then you got nothing to worry about :) Holy Spirit abiding in each Christian will confirm the Truth. I got so much on my plate at the moment I dunno whether I am coming or going. Since one of my most recent articles a whole new can of worms has opened up. My email address is under the About this Blog page.

  • Hanelie

    I’m way behind here – was searching for something else and came across this. I see you quote Peter saying:

    “Speak to me if you are brave enough and I will give you the truth and “the truth will set you free”.

    In the interview he says:

    Truth is the Word and it demands …

    Sad how he has the answers, but doesn’t bring them together. He himself says that Truth is the Word (which is Jesus), but then he goes on to say “it” demands. In the quote above he to “give you the truth” which will then set you free. This, I assume refers to John 8:32, which reads that we will be set free if we “know” the Truth (know Jesus, has a relationship with Him) not when we hear the truth (or – worse – a human “truth”) .

    John 8:32 is, of course preceded by John 8:31:

    [31] “If you hold to my teaching, you are really my disciples. [32] Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.”

  • Hanelie

    Oh, and, am I the only one seeing one (all seeing) eye in Ridgeways’ logo? I know you can go to far with these things – on the other hand, we know the enemy likes to “hide” in plain sight.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Hanelie

    It very well might be one…

  • Robbie

    Hanelie, maybe you want to browse this.

    http://www.whale.to/b/eye_s.html

  • Hanelie

    Thank you, Robbie, those are rather unpleasant images. It’s one of those symbols that is becoming more and more common ….

  • Myfanwy Brown

    Hi Robbie and Hanelie,

    I was just browsing through today’s comments, and I thought about something. You can get an ‘iphone’ with a voice detector (woman’s voice that responds to what you ask her), and her ‘name’ is Siri… hmmmm.. interesting!

  • Robbie

    Sorry Hanelie, I realised later there were some graphic ones.

    Myfanwy, I need to get one of those!!. The one I married does not even respond…
    (just kidding)

    Interesting.. in German Siri means “fair Victory. In Zwahili it means “secret”

  • Hanelie

    Robbie wrote:

    Sorry Hanelie, I realised later there were some graphic ones.

    No proble; no harm done. But, if one needed any ‘proof’ of the evil nature of the all seeing eye, those images would certainly do it. :) Interestingly, the rectory of one of the first DRC ministers in Stellenbosch has a gable with a rather prominent all seeing eye. This building currently houses the Big Easy restaurant (of Ernie Els).

    One of our friends have a Siri, but I won’t be getting one. First time I heard of an iPhone it was called the Jesus phone. Put me off it altogether.

  • Myfanwy Brown

    Robbie,

    Most of the time it either gets the question wrong or it gives a vague answer, lol. It is my older son’s phone, I just have a cheap one that I use to text. My point also is that they call it the ‘i’ phone, just like all the series of ‘i’ technology. I am also wondering why APPLE was given that name..and also why there is a bite taken out of the apple, as in Eve?

    Hanelie,

    I also see that you are making great progress, it is wonderful, Praise God!!

    Speaking about the all seeing eye, etc.. I was watching the news on TV yesterday, and they were talking about the Olympics..so they had a guy on who was wearing an Adidas shirt…anyway, my eyes suddenly focused on the Adidas, and I realised it had little blocks going up with the logo, and it formed a pyramid. Hmm…I seriously was not ‘watching’ for anything, it just happened. I think there have been many, many logos and signs that have been subtle in the past, but now the devil and his brigade are shoving things under our noses!!

    Anyways..sorry I have been rambling on..

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    4. You agree that you will not systematically retrieve data or other content from the Site by any means, and you will not compile a database or directory of information extracted from the Site.
    5. You agree that you will not reproduce, distribute or make derivative works of the Site or any of the contents thereof without the express consent of Discerning the World.
    6. You hereby agree to indemnify, defend and hold harmless Discerning the World, its affiliates and licensees, and all of their officers, directors, employees, agents and representatives from and against any and all liabilities, losses, claims, damages, and expenses (including attorneys’ fees) in connection with any claim arising out of your use of the Site or violation of any of these Terms.

DISCLAIMER OF WARRANTY/LIMITATION OF LIABILITY.

  • YOU EXPRESSLY AGREE THAT USE OF THE SITE IS AT YOUR SOLE RISK. NEITHER DISCERNING THE WORLD, ITS AFFILIATES, NOR ANY OF THEIR RESPECTIVE EMPLOYEES, AGENTS, OR LICENSORS WARRANT THAT THE SITE WILL BE UNINTERRUPTED, TIMELY, SECURE OR ERROR FREE.
  • THE SITE IS PROVIDED ON AN “AS IS” BASIS WITHOUT WARRANTIES OF ANY KIND, EITHER EXPRESS OR IMPLIED, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO WARRANTIES OF TITLE OR IMLPLIED WARRANTIES OF MERCHANTABILITY OR FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE.
  • THIS DISCLAIMER OF LIABILITY APPLIES TO ANY DAMAGES OR INJURY CAUSED BY ANY FAILURE OF PERFORMANCE, ERROR, OMISSION, INTERRUPTION, DELETION, DEFECT, DELAY, COMMUNICATION LINE FAILURE, THEFT OR DESTRUCTION OR UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO, ALTERATION OF OR USE, WHETHER FOR BREACH OF CONTRACT, TORTIOUS BEHAVIOR, NEGLIGENCE OR UNDER ANY OTHER CAUSE OF ACTION. YOU SPECIFICALLY ACKNOWLEDGE AND AGREE THAT DISCERNING THE WORLD SHALL NOT BE LIABLE FOR THE DEFAMATORY, OFFENSIVE OR ILLEGAL CONDUCT OF USERS OF THE SITE OR THIRD PARTIES, AND THAT THE RISK OF INJURY FROM THE FOREGOING RESTS ENTIRELY WITH THE YOU THE COMMENTER.
  • IN NO EVENT WILL DISCERNING THE WORLD, ITS AFFILIATES OR ANY OF THEIR RESPECTIVE EMPLOYEES, AGENTS OR LICENSORS BE LIABLE FOR ANY DAMAGES, INCLUDING WITHOUT LIMITATION DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR PUNITIVE DAMAGES, EVEN IF THEY HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES, ARISING FROM, RELATING TO OR CONNECTED WITH THE USE OR INABILITY TO USE THE SITE OR ANY OTHER MATTER ARISING FROM, RELATING TO OR CONNECTED WITH THE SITE OR THESE TERMS.

16. These Terms constitute the entire agreement between Discerning the World and you with respect to the subject matter hereof, and supersede any previous oral or written agreement between us with respect to such subject matter.

Thank you!