Amahoro – Take Over Africa and Then the World

Deborah (Discerning the World)

Deborah Ellish is the author of the above article. Discerning the World is an internet Christian Ministry based in Johannesburg South Africa. Tom Lessing and Deborah Ellish both own Discerning the World. For more information see the About this Website page below the comments section.

18 Responses

  1. Discerning The World says:

    ARTICLE WRITTEN 5 APR 2008: Mandela, Maitreya and a Rainbow Nation

  2. Roger says:

    Thanks for your post, DTW. It’s great that you’ve worked through Claude’s talk and have posted your comments directly after what he wrote, so that we can follow the direction of your thought.

    After reading your post, I’ve come to the following conclusions about Amahoro:
    – It’s a group of people who are bent upon distorting the Christ of the Bible to mean what they want Him to mean, and are encouraging Bible-believing Christians to worship the False Christ, which is not Jesus but a fake Christ, so that we think we can become gods. God is going to deliver a terrible judgement on the world because of this, and also on those involved at Amahoro.
    – They are saying that people don’t have freedom (“No situation is untransfigurable”) which is of course, rubbish.
    – They are encouraging people to be exalted to a Christ-consciousness level, to a god-level (and that’s an appearance, not the reality).
    – They will probably worship the False Christ when he appears, rather than the true Christ.
    – While appearing to speak the truth, they are engaging in speaking deception and lies, and are probably, as you said, “in a pact with Satan.”
    – It’s disturbing that this new gospel wipes out the “old” gospel, the gospel of Jesus, since it has nothing to do with saving souls for heaven. They don’t think that Jesus is coming back to take his children home, but that they’re going to rule the earth with Christ (the false Christ).
    – In fact, Amahoro is all about good works, and nothing more than that.
    – They have a disturbing idea that we’re all part of one global brotherhood, one community.
    – They are spreading the evil idea of contemplation.
    – They don’t seem to realise that all of our problems come from being separated from God, that if only everyone was worshipping him in spirit and truth as Christians, only then we’d have peace.
    – I’m continually appalled at how Catholics went around torturing Christians and Jews under the name of ‘God’. Clearly contemplation doesn’t work.
    – “Mystical” = “occult” and that’s exactly what Amahoro is about.
    – This idea that “If the whole world is not well then I’m not well” is rubbish. The state of the rest of the world has nothing to do with the state of my soul. I am personally accountable before God, nothing more, nothing less. The rest of the world has nothing to do with it. I can’t believe Amahoro buys into this!
    – “Evil and good are one and the same”?!?! What?! Yes, I read that right: Amahoro is saying that God and Satan are the same!
    – You’re absolutely correct that “Asking each other for forgiveness is pretty stupid.” Forgiveness comes from a Christian heart, and only Jesus has the power to forgive sins. They’re twisting the Word of God.
    – As you say, “He only loves those who love Him and accept His Son and repent of their sin” you’re quite right. I can’t believe Claude can say something like, “And God loves [our enemies] as passionately as He loves us.” That’s obviously wrong – I’m glad you have the courage to point this out. People need to warned against Amahoro and what they are doing.
    – Your critique of contemplation is correct. You write: “It’s all in the technique, the ritual, the spell”. While Amahoro probably isn’t openly into witchcraft, it’s probably only a matter of time.
    – I also salute your courage to call Claude a LIAR!!! when he deserves it. Twisting that passage of Scripture to mean something different – he needs to be called on that, well done.
    – As you say, “Jesus was not a rabbi.” Of course he wasn’t! Sure, he was a respected teacher, but nobody called him a rabbi. I don’t know where Claude gets this from. He probably doesn’t read his Bible much.

    You’ve reminded me of some theological truths:
    – Jesus died for our sin, and is coming to save us from the coming judgement. The important thing is not that we “participate in the transformation of the world” but that we help people to confess their sins and make right with God.
    – God doesn’t love everyone, he only loves those who love Him and accept His Son and repent of their sin.
    – it’s not possible to collaborate with Christ, since he hasn’t returned (he sits at the right hand of the Father and has not yet returned). So these people from Amahoro are clearly collaborating with *something* – and it’s clearly the False Christ.

    Thank you, DTW, for posting this – I’ll be on guard against Amahoro and their false gospel of transformation.

  3. Frank Talk says:

    have read hte post and rogers comments. must say i agree with both of you. amahoro love witchcraft, satan and contempltive prayer. they are liars. they want a new gospel to wipe out the old. jesus never said “love your enemy”. he never said to forgive others and anwyay, god only loves christians – he hates everyone else.

  4. Discerning The World says:

    Frank Talk / Roger

    Let’s be frank, Roger. You and Roger are one and the same person… How could you have read Roger’s post when I had not even approved it yet. Nevermind that you use the same email address, lets not mention your IP.

    Come now… there are two options for split personalities, 1) Prayer AND 2) a psychiatrist

  5. Discerning The World says:

    Roger / Frank (cos you post with multiple names – might we call it two faces)

    Thanks for you sarcasim but thanks for the summary too…I am very very happy that you completely understand what I have said and summarised it for others so they may benefit from it. It’s just a pity though that you can’t see what you have written.

  6. Roger says:

    Busted! Outed! How embarrassing! Deary me.

    My psychiatrist is praying for me. Both of me.

    I’m glad you could recognise my sarcasm, although I prefer to think of it as satire. You’re someone who is clearly bent upon attacking anything and everything which you disagree with, and doing so in a cynical spirit without bothering to do much research. Keep on going – I’m sure you’re doing good work!

    I’ve been following Amahoro for a while and let me say this much: you have it wrong. They’re not about to kneel down and worship a false Christ, although I don’t think I could say anything which will make you change your mind about them. You’re so convinced that you are right that no evidence from an alternative source will change your mind. Nothing. Nada. Should I try? Has this debate been “won” by you for it has started? Have you appointed yourself judge, jury and executioner? I think so.

    And so here are a few points, written in the hope that others who have a slightly more open mind may evaluate them.

    1. Jesus was a rabbi. He was a teacher in the Jewish tradition and was called as such. Go and find someone who knows some Biblical Greek and ask them. Even better, find a Messianic Jew and ask them. Even better, find a Jew and ask them.

    2. “Love your enemies” is indeed found in the Bible. It’s one of the hardest commandments to stomach, let alone follow.

    3. God doesn’t love only Christians. If that was the case, then he didn’t love me before I was a Christian! I don’t want to get into a Scripture-slinging match, but that’s the risk: John 3:16. “For God so loved the world…” Similarly, Jesus confirms this by answering the question “Who is my neighbour?” after he gives the commandment, “Love your neighbour as you love yourself.” Interesting that the example Jesus chose in the story of the Good Samaritan could be recast in contemporary times (in a decent job of dynamic translation) as the story of the Good Muslim, or the Good Gay, or the Good Fundamentalist, or the Good Emergent, or the Good ANC President.

    4. If there is to be any peace in this world (and I hope I don’t have to make the case for why peace is a GOOD thing) then Christians and Muslims are going to have to figure it out. Not that that’s the only solution, but unless there is peace between these two great religions, the world will blow itself to smithereens.

    Thank you. I take a bow. And reiterate:

    My psychiatrist is praying for me. Both of me.

  7. Discerning The World says:

    Roger

    >> someone who is clearly bent upon attacking anything and everything which you disagree with

    Oh I am sorry, next time you get ripped off by a con artist (liar), please don’t disagree that you were taken for a ride, just keep going…follow the masses of those who get rapped over the nuckles for disagreeing. Just keep on going…or the Nemo syndrome: Just keep swimming, just keep swimming…(get the tune going….) just keep swimming…just keep swimming…

    >> cynical spirit

    Oh another spirit with a name…whats’ next; the satirical spirit. I’ve heard of the Joshua spirit, John the Baptist spirit, Moses spirit, David spirit, Elijah spirit, The spirit (yeah this one didn’t even get a name…shame), the Esther spiritand the dreaded, Religious spirit!

    >> I’ve been following Amahoro for a while and let me say this much: you have it wrong.

    Oh oh oh are you disagreeing with me? Don’t do that…it’s bad to disagree with everthing and everthing.

    >> Have you appointed yourself judge, jury and executioner?

    Speaketh for yourself…

    >> Jesus was a rabbi.

    Jesus IS the Son of God!! King of Kings, not some lowly Rabbi. Just because this term was used on earth, He has risen and is ALL POWER AND ALL GLORY – when He returns he comes to bring JUDGEMENT and EXECUTION.

    >> Love your enemies” is indeed found in the Bible. It’s one of the hardest commandments to stomach, let alone follow

    Oh such an over stated comment by the Emergies. I warn because I love! Next time you find someone who has a bus heading straight for them (no matter who they are) don’t warn them…whatever you do, please don’t warn then. Instead tell them to not disagree with the bus.

    >> God doesn’t love only Christians. If that was the case, then he didn’t love me before I was a Christian!

    So what you’re saying is that EVERYONE is going to live in paradise? And you twist this scripture to suit your own ideas. And of course he loves you, that’s why He sent his ONLY SON to DIE the most horrific death for you. How prideful to think that you can tell God what He can and can not think about you. How selfish are you to not realise that Jesus had to die that you may be saved – IF YOU ACCEPT HIM. And yes I too was going to perish before I was genuinely saved. You want to know something interesting. Because you refuse to accept the only TRUTH the complete Word of God and want to bend to every god that comes your way, you in effect send yourself into everlasting damnation. You make your own choice…it’s all up to you believe it…or not.

    But you can choose the cushy Christ who will tell you….”Nooo God would never say that, would he?” He loves everyone? Surely?

    John 3:16

    16 “For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.

    So, it clearly states, that if you do NOT believe in the ONLY Son of God, Jesus Christ then you will perish. Simple, no hidden meaning. But I am sure you will search and search and search to find one.

    I know you would love to change the rules, but you can’t. The new Christ had been trying to change the rules since he had himself kicked out of Heaven…and he is still going it…and everyone is following him…cos he speaks peace, happiness and joy…when in fact the world is going to end in the most horrific manner – but you believed him when he says, ‘nooooo, it’s gonna be bliss”.

    >> Love your neighbour as you love yourself.”

    Of course that is why we WARN EVERYONE, no matter their race, coulour, language because we LOVE THEM. That they are going to perish if they don’t believe in Jesus Christ the Son of God. Repent of their Sin, be born again through God’s Holy Spirit. Jesus Christ is the WAY the TRUTH and the LIFE NO MAN comes to the FATHER BUT through HIM.

    >> Interesting that the example Jesus chose in the story of the Good Samaritan could be recast in contemporary times (in a decent job of dynamic translation) as the story of the Good Muslim, or the Good Gay, or the Good Fundamentalist, or the Good Emergent, or the Good ANC President.

    Oh so what you are saying is that ALL faiths lead to the same God. Go on say it. But we have the problem: Allah has no son, Krishna has no son, Buddha has no son – so how can all religions lead to the of God if the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob who gave HIS ONLY BEGOTTEN SON so that WHOEVER believes in HIM will be SAVED.

    The Emergent version of the Samaritan; “they come bearing food and clothes, water wells and transformation. But the real reason for their presence is to fool the people into thinking that the one who brings these things is Jesus of the Bible. I mean, if that’s who they say they believe in then surely that’s who they believe in right? Not necessarily. In this case…pretty good chance it’s just an outright NO.

    >> Christians and Muslims are going to have to figure it out. Not that that’s the only solution, but unless there is peace between these two great religions, the world will blow itself to smithereens

    Jesus said there will never be peace, for He came to bring a sword (the Word of God) and all those who love the Word of God and adhere to it will be HATED. So much for loving your neighbor, hey? The New Christian speaks of love, and dialogue, but it will soon come to the point where the love and dialogue will only be for those who follow The Christ.

    Thank you, I take a bow. And I reiterate:

    God who sent His Son Jesus Christ INSISTS on YOU asking HIM for forgiveness for YOUR SIN through HIS ONLY SON, so that you can be RESTORED to GOD. We are washed clean and spotless by the Blood of Jesus when he was crucified so that we may be save. Because of this Jesus can present us before a Holy Holy God. Until such time as you accept Jesus Christ into your life and are re-born of God’s Holy Spirit, God does NOT KNOW YOU for your sin separates you from God.

    Reiterate for Frank: (sorry I could not help speaking to Frank…it’s my humorous spirit lol)

    Accept Jesus Christ the Son of God, repent of their sin, change their ways, hate the wickedness of this world, be born again and spread the gospel of Jesus Christ, the TRUTH so that they may be saved, with all long suffering – spread the gospel of Jesus to a world who refuses to listen, but prefer to follow false Christ(s) instead. And yes many many false Christ’s have gone forth since the beginning and deceived. But the Man of Lawlessness is here, and if you are not careful…you will find yourself being forced to bow before him. And if you disagree, you WILL find yourself in a biiiiiiiiit of a predicament.

    Will leave you with this verse:

    Luke 18:7-8

    7 now, will not God bring about justice for His elect who cry to Him day and night, and will He delay long over them?

    8 “I tell you that He will bring about justice for them quickly. However, when the Son of Man comes, will He find faith on the earth?”
    The born again Christians are crying out, praying to God to keep them safe, protect them. The bible says that God will come quickly to avenge their suffering; He will bring about justice towards the persecutors. And justice will be swift! Then it carries on to say that when Jesus Christ returns He doubts He will find much faith left on earth.

    Hmmm….and you were saying?

  8. Discerning The World says:

    Roger/Frank

    Oh boy….just keep swimming…just keep swimming….

  9. Roger says:

    Wow, DTW, wow. That was an amazing display of deliberate misunderstanding – I’m pretty impressed! If there was an Oscar’s for twisting someone else’s words, well, you’d win it! I’d vote for you too!

    I salute your ability to pick and choose what you want to fight with, and to leave the rest alone. Dude, that’s a spiritual gift. Please never go into academia, for your own sake: your first essay will be returned post-haste.

    You have no idea about me or what I believe, but you have cunningly read my mind before I’ve been able to explain the specifics you accuse me of. You must have supernatural powers!

    In your first paragraph above, you state your belief that the only way to disagree with someone is to attack them. Good luck in your relationships (and I hope you never disagree with God).

    You don’t answer my “cynical spirit” charge so let me phrase it another way: your online interactions are drenched in cynicism. Are your face-to-face relationships the same?

    Your answer to my “Jesus was a rabbi” statement shows that, theologically, you are almost completely on the “transcendence” side on have nothing on the “immanence” side. This gives you a holy, wrathful God who has no compassion. You would probably say that I’m on the other side – but I’ve yet to present my case!

    Thank you for warning me about the bus which is going to hit me. I happen to think you’re mistaken, and this is based upon engagement with my community, reflection upon Scripture, the tradition of the Church, and much prayer. I continue to work out my salvation with fear and trembling.

    I have rather a good idea that you don’t care one bit about me, but enjoy whacking me over the head with your correct theology, which is, of course, the theology of the Bible. Having read your blog, it’s no wonder people who disagree with you don’t stick around. Are your friends all people who share the same perspective as you?

    Perhaps you’ve forgotten why God wrestled with Jacob, and why the Judeo-Christian tradition is defined by this wrestling.

    How do you reconcile the false Christ bringing peace with Jesus being called the Prince of Peace? With the angels singing, “Peace on earth and goodwill to all men”?

    And equally, how do you get past this line in the Lord’s prayer – which the Church has conveniently forgotten over the last 200 years: “Your Kingdom come, on earth as it is in heaven.” That’s not an eschatalogical statement, that’s a prayer for it happening now. Inaugurated eschatalogy, if you want the technical term.

    You’re warning people because you love them – great! In what other ways are you demonstrating your love for people?

    You said, “Oh so what you are saying is that ALL faiths lead to the same God.” Yes, I said that. Oh wait, I didn’t. You put those words in my mouth. You do that a lot, don’t you?

    So your hope for Muslims is what, exactly? What about those ones who won’t become Christians? You wash your hands of them and don’t care what happens to them?

    “God who sent His Son Jesus Christ INSISTS on YOU asking HIM for forgiveness for YOUR SIN through HIS ONLY SON, so that you can be RESTORED to GOD.” Amen! So why is it that those who are restored to God are the most arrogant, unloving, ungraceful people around? For the fruit of the spirit is…what, exactly? DTW, if you are what a Christian is, I do not want to be a Christian.

    I think this paragraph sums up your theology quite well:

    “Of course that is why we WARN EVERYONE, no matter their race, coulour, language because we LOVE THEM. That they are going to perish if they don’t believe in Jesus Christ the Son of God. Repent of their Sin, be born again through God’s Holy Spirit. Jesus Christ is the WAY the TRUTH and the LIFE NO MAN comes to the FATHER BUT through HIM.”

    Now, this was the same gospel preached during Apartheid South Africa as Christians were quite content to oppress their neighbour. It was the same gospel that was preached to First Nations people in Canada, as their native tongue and religion was beaten out of them by Christians. It was the same gospel which sustained slave traders as they kidnapped millions of Africans.

    Want me to listen to your gospel? Give me a compelling critique of how this gospel was wrongly used during all of the above times, what we learn from it, and how it has changed. Or just continue mindless attacking others – I guess you have to express your anger *somehow.*

  10. Discerning The World says:

    Roger

    >> Give me a compelling critique of how this gospel was wrongly used during all of the above times, what we learn from it, and how it has changed

    You can’t be serious? Did you read my comments above…oh wait you actually summarised it…*sighs*

    >> This conversation with you is like trying to nail jello to a wall.

    Just call me Flubber! Getting splattered all over the place as I repeat myself over and over and over again. Well enough of that…

    I tell you what, go open your own blog and preach the opposite to what I say (actually I am sure I said that to someone in the About This Blog page)….honestly I don’t have time here to hold your hand over tea and scones when there are millions of others who actually care for the truth that Jesus Christ gave HIS LIFE to SAVE YOUR SOUL that you will NOT PERISH because we are all born into a sinful world. Those who refuse Him will prerish, those who accept Him and repent of their Sin will be saved. (Unlike Ama’horror’ that is not into saving souls at all).

    Besides, all you have to do is open your Bible and study the scriptures for yourself. Easy peasy….

    Lastly, I can’t make you care, and I would never force you to care for the true Gospel of Jesus Christ. Unlike the Man of Lawlessness who will force you to worship him, make sure you won’t be able to buy and sell without taking his mark. Yes, that means coffee will be out of the question soon for those who follow Jesus Christ the Son of God. Maybe I should take you up on that offer while I still can…

    It’s all upto you. Your choice. Choose Jesus Christ or a counterfeit Christ. Cos that’s what it’s going to come down too. The entire world is going to be asked this question, direclty or indirectly very soon.

  11. Roger says:

    This is actually a pretty simple challenge – are you up for it? “Give me a compelling critique of how this gospel was wrongly used during all of the above times, what we learn from it, and how it has changed.”

    *sigh* This conversation with you is like trying to nail jello to a wall. Well, since blogging isn’t working, how about a face-to-face? I’m always up for coffee – how about you?

  12. Discerning The World says:

    Roger

    >> DTW, my summary was the making a point by reductio ad absurdum (reducing things to their most absurd, and thereby making the opposite point).

    YES Roger, I know. But in trying to make the Gospel of Jesus Christ into something ABSURD you actually took all the important points and highlighted them. Anyone whos cares for the TRUTH however when reading you comment would just ignore your reductio ad absurdum.

    >> So, are you scared of a face-to-face coffee? You didn’t answer directly. I’m in Joburg – where are you?

    I said, “honestly I don’t have time here to hold your hand over tea and scones” So that’s a no, what part of that didn’t you understand.

    You have the Bible do you not? Go read it over the duration of a few thousand cups of coffee,

    >> “The gospel is about the forgiveness of sins,” and not owning up to the ways that gospel was used in evil ways does nothing to further this conversation

    FINALLY my last say. Genuine Christians WILL NEVER USE THE WORD OF GOD FOR EVIL. Gee whiskers…what’s wrong with you. The atrocities committed throughout the centuries have been by Roman Catholics, they murdered everyone who refused to adhere to them. Roman Catholocism is NOT Christian and NEVER will be.

    And if you say the gospel was used for evil, BUT the Emergent teaching is all about ALL faiths LEADING TO ONE GOD…are you AGREEING that the teaching of Islam is in effect evil, or Buddhist teachings are evil when they went on a rampage and killed a few hundred people in Inda recently? What ‘gospel’ are THEY following??? The Bible? Please, stop contradicting youself…really.

    You say I put words in your mouth, the problem is Roger, you don’t SAY WHAT YOU MEAN.

    Go contemplate on that will you…breath, clear your thoughts, remove any logicical thinking, switch off that brain that God gave you…you can ask that catholic comtemplative prayer person (whatever his name was – it’s in the above article) on how to do it.

  13. Roger says:

    I wrote: “Give me a compelling critique of how this gospel was wrongly used during all of the above times, what we learn from it, and how it has changed.”

    You replied: “You can’t be serious? Did you read my comments above…oh wait you actually summarised it…*sighs*”

    DTW, my summary was the making a point by reductio ad absurdum (reducing things to their most absurd, and thereby making the opposite point). Amahoro are not about the things you accuse them of (witchcraft?! Seriously?!). Simply repeating over and over again, “The gospel is about the forgiveness of sins,” and not owning up to the ways that gospel was used in evil ways does nothing to further this conversation. I’m still waiting for you to make a single point about that.

    So, are you scared of a face-to-face coffee? You didn’t answer directly. I’m in Joburg – where are you?

  14. Amanda says:

    Roger

    The Gospel that was preached during the apartheid (segregation) years was this:

    Now I would remind you, brothers, of the gospel I preached to you, which you received, in which you stand, and by which you are being saved, if you hold fast to the word I preached to you–unless you believed in vain. For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received: that Christ died for our sins in accordance with the Scriptures, that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day in accordance with the Scriptures,
    (1Co 15:1-4)

    That is it. That is what saves people into the Body of Christ. I don’t see how you can ‘wrongly use’ this Gospel except by changing or denying it.

    Why do you call Islam a great religion? Are you aware that all Muslims are commanded to fight Jihad until the whole world submits to their god and then there will be peace? There is nothing they can do about that, except obey. They certainly cannot ‘figure’ it out. The Koran is very clear about this and it cannot be changed. Who made you believe that true peace is possible? Who made you believe that the Gospel may be changed? In fact, Roger, you are doing exactly what you accuse political leaders of doing: using the Bible to engineer a social political change.

    Do you agree that the solution to the world’s problems is to share?

  15. Roger says:

    Discerning The World, I didn’t make the gospel absurd in my reductio ad absurdum – I made your analysis of Amahoro absurd.

    As for not wanting to hold my hand over tea and scones, you have my complete agreement! (I’d prefer cucumber sandwiches anyway). I’m just confused as to why you choose to hide behind an online nickname when you could come out and tell us all who you are. Clearly that’s why you don’t want to meet me for coffee – you’re worried that your real name might get out, and you’ll be out of the closet, exposed. Ok, that’s your choice. My offer still stands. Wear a paper bag over your head if you want.

    Amanda, do you know why DTW is so scared of meeting me for coffee?

    DTW: “Genuine Christians WILL NEVER USE THE WORD OF GOD FOR EVIL.” Go and read some history – you’ll find it quite hard to blame all the wrong things Christians did on Catholics, as if all other Christians were innocent. Simply being Methodist or Baptist or Anglican or Reformed does not mean that what somebody does is suddenly correct. Good Christians (Catholic and Protestant) supported slavery. Good Christians (Catholic and Protestant) supported Apartheid. Good Christians (Catholic and Protestant) supported Hitler. Simply pretending otherwise is naive.

    As Christians, one of the tasks before us is to confess our sins, even if (and especially if) those sins are when we use Jesus in our own power games, to steal from others. This is a hard truth. Here’s one example. When Christians (who were fleeing religious persecution) came to South Africa, they had the Bible, and the local Africans had the land. A few centuries later, the equation was reversed. The Bible is used for some quite horrendous things which seemed like the will of God at the time. Merely having the Bible does not give us license to steal from others!

    Perhaps you will one day meet some Catholics who confess Jesus with their lips and believe him in their hearts – I have. By Biblical standards, this makes them Christians.

    If you’re referring to the Crusades when you talk about Catholics murdering others, lets remember that this was pre-Reformation. It wasn’t Catholics murdering others, it was Christians doing that. Until we’re honest about that to Muslims, we allow a huge blockage to get between the word of God, and them. Do you want to play a part in cementing this blockage, or removing it?

    The Emergent teaching (whatever that is) is not about all faiths leading to one God – I don’t know where you get that. I don’t know enough about the internal tensions with Islam and Buddhism to comment about them, but I know to judge them on the fruit they lead to, and one of the fruits of the spirit is peace. If a religion does not lead to peace, the Holy Spirit is not working within it. If your Christian faith does not lead you to be a peacemaker, same thing.

    Amanda, thank you for answering my question. Yes, you’re right – that gospel is the gospel that was preached during Apartheid. And people believed it, and were saved.

    So now why did these Christians who were saved into the Body of Christ still do evil things in the name of God? And I’m not talking about the accidental things they unwittingly did, I’m talking about the evil that was committed in the name of God, but those part of the body of Christ, who were saved by that Gospel, yet who persisted in using that same Gospel to subjugate and abuse those they had power over.

    That’s the point – that the Gospel isn’t just about setting me right before God by taking care of my sin, it’s also about what happens after that point. Jesus said, “Blessed are the peacemakers,” and so we work for peace. This is an outworking of our salvation, not a means to salvation.

    Paul outlines the fruit of the spirit: love, joy, peace, patience, etc. The prophets talk about justice, and so we work for justice, because this is what God is about, to bring justice to the earth.

    God cares about the poor – it’s all over the pages of Scripture. And so we help the poor where we can and with what we have – not only relationally, but also by improving the systems which helped make those people poor in the first place. And we do this as an outworking of our relationship with God, because that is what God is about. Caring about the widows and orphans, the poor and homeless.

    I’ll answer your question about Muslims over coffee, Amanda.

  16. Discerning The World says:

    Roger

    bla bla bla…NO is NO Roger…or Frank…or…whoever you are

    And stop trying to quote from the ‘pages of scripture’ your ‘analysis’ or what you think the ‘scriptures’ means is ABSURD.

  17. Amanda says:

    Merely having the Bible does not give us license to steal from others!

    I agree. Yet you are all for the redistribution of wealth. Are you hoping for Marxism for South Africa? You are welcome to your own political ideas. But you are emerging from Christianity in order to achieve your political agenda and are perturbed when the fundamentalists point this out to warn Christians.

    Until we’re honest about that to Muslims, we allow a huge blockage to get between the word of God, and them. Do you want to play a part in cementing this blockage, or removing it?

    Roger. The Crusades were a defensive war to take back land stolen by Islam. And the Muslims are not apologizing for the worldwide Jihad raging at this moment.

    The Emergent teaching (whatever that is) is not about all faiths leading to one God – I don’t know where you get that.

    Phyllis Tickle. Rob Bell. Doug Paggit. Roger.

    I don’t know enough about the internal tensions with Islam and Buddhism to comment about them, but I know to judge them on the fruit they lead to, and one of the fruits of the spirit is peace.

    Yes, Islam leads to peace when all are submitted under Sharia law. There is the land of peace, where Sharia is the law of the land and the land of war, where Sharia is not yet the law of the land. All Muslims are required to wage Jihad until the whole world submits to Allah. Judge that fruit.

    If a religion does not lead to peace, the Holy Spirit is not working within it.

    Roger? Islam is the religion of peace. Are you saying that the Holy Spirit is therefore working in Islam?

    If your Christian faith does not lead you to be a peacemaker, same thing.

    The emerging movement is bringing division into the church. When they stop pretending to be Christian and join Maitreya openly, then there will be peace in the church.

    So now why did these Christians who were saved into the Body of Christ still do evil things in the name of God?

    Did you actually listen how Chris Rosebrough explained this in the second program? I have a question for you, Roger. Do poor people sin? Do the oppressed sin?

    That’s the point – that the Gospel isn’t just about setting me right before God by taking care of my sin, it’s also about what happens after that point. Jesus said, “Blessed are the peacemakers,” and so we work for peace. This is an outworking of our salvation, not a means to salvation.

    Oops. We are saved by the Gospel, only to be placed back under the bondage of the Law? You err greatly, Roger. You covet the good works of Christianity, yet you have no idea what it is to be a Christian. You misjudge what it is that Jesus Christ accomplished by living a perfect life for me and dying on the Cross for me.

    The prophets talk about justice, and so we work for justice,

    And justice is when everybody has the same? What do you think of Maitreya?

    because this is what God is about, to bring justice to the earth.

    Jesus Christ is coming back to judge the living and the dead and, if I might add, that means the rich and the poor.

    And we do this as an outworking of our relationship with God, because that is what God is about. Caring about the widows and orphans, the poor and homeless.

    Roger, do you believe that God could send a widow and an orphan, a poor or homeless man to hell?

    I’ll answer your question about Muslims over coffee, Amanda.

    I think you already have. Maybe you misunderstand what this is about? The fundamental doctrines of Christianity are not up for discussion. We warn that the emerging movement is about changing Christianity. Repent and believe the Gospel. Without that you are lost, no matter how many ‘good’ deeds you might do.

  18. Amanda says:

    Phyllis Tickle. Rob Bell. Doug Paggit. Roger.

    And Nic Paton. But you knew that, didn’t you, Roger?

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