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Amahoro – Take Over Africa and Then the World

Amahoro Africa

Amahoro – Transfiguration to Take Over Africa and Then the World

Opening Address at The Gathering: South Africa

Gathering from (8-15 June, 2009) – Posted by Claude Nikondeha on June 08, 2009 at 2:59 PM

[Bold Emphasis and notes in green added by DTW]

We are, many of us, on a trajectory of transformation in our communities and countries.  [Edited 20/6: A trajectory is the path a moving object follows through space.  Example a rockets trajectory, or bullet for that matter.  However, what goes up, must come down]  We are working for something more than the salvation of the soul, [Really????] we are investing in the restoration of all things.  [Creating the ‘Kingdom of the False Christ on earth’, sorry I mean ‘Kingdom of God on earth’].  All things – creation in its entirety, all things created in Heaven and on Earth – are being restored, reconciled, transformed into God’s dream for His world.  [God is in all, all is in God – through Christ consciousness we, the entire world will become gods]

Desmond Tutu, a son of South Africa and a fitting mentor for us gathered here today, speaks of the Principle of Transfiguration. [Is that part of The Golden Rule?] ‘Nothing, no one, and no situation is ‘untransfigurable [No one? So we don’t have a choice in the matter, so much for freedom] that the whole of Creation, nature, waits expectantly for its transfiguration… [We do?  I don’t.  I wait for Jesus Christ the Son of God our Saviour, the one who died for our SIN – who is coming to save us from the horrors that lay ahead brought on by a False Christ who appears good and great in the beginning and then turns into the most evil man the world has ever witnessed SINCE the beginning of time – NOTHING will compare to the horror that will befall the ENTIRE word, all creation, every human on this earth] when it will be translucent with divine glory.’ We are collaborating with Christ as He works to bring the ultimate transfiguration of the world. [Collaborating with Christ? How is this possible when Jesus Christ is seated at the right hand of our Heavenly Father and has NOT YET RETURNED to JUDGE the world.  And I have no doubt your False Christ is here and you have met personally met him].  This image [The bible tells us to not make images, oh but wait your Christ will soon make an Image of Himself] of transfiguration has really captured my imagination, [Yes, this is what the anti-Christ is going to do, CAPTURE ever person in this entire world into taking the Mark of the Best, that no one may buy or sell without it] so I submit it to [Pass the message on… that The Christ is here] you tonight for some corporate reflection.

Transform – a familiar word among us – means to change something in its composition, structure, character or condition. This is our work as community organizers, right, to bring about such change on the ground. But transfiguration brings another set of connotations, it adds luminosity, enrichment, some sort of exaltation. [It supposedly moves us onto a higher level – a god level] Indeed, it means to give a new and exalted appearance, to bring about a change for the better. [Again, exalted to a Christ consciousness level, a god level – but this is only in appearance and NOT in reality].

To transfigure seems to elevate the endeavor or to deepen it, maybe. [Elevate everything to a higher level]  Let me share a story… [Yes, please do, it’s very telling…]

This past summer I traveled, for the first time, to a Batwa community just outside Bujumbura. I reached the village of Bubanza and saw people living in unbelievable conditions. People consigned to arid, sterile land far from a school or a local market. They were living in feeble grass huts that could not withstand the rains of Burundi. [Not sure why you had to go all the way there when there are plenty of places here in South Africa with the same problems…anyhow…]  I sought out the leader of the village. I asked his name. I wanted to know who he was. He told me Nazina, ‘no name.’ [How interesting!] In a culture where a name tells who you are or who you are to become, his parents named him No Name. There was nothing to hope for. His name communicated the depth of despondency that the Batwa people experience.

In a moment I recognized their sense of frailty, their invisibility – seeing how precarious their life was. [It took you to meet the leader called ”NO NAME’ to recognise the problems in the village? Oh please… it’s got nothing to do with their frailty and suffering. You are trying to tell us something else here! A hidden message within this story] I also saw how my life is tied up with theirs. I am less human because of their condition. My own humanity and even faith is bound to their well-being. In that moment I knew my existence was bound to Nazina, No Name. My heart was pierced. It was a moment of transfiguration. [Um…ok…] It was a moment when God allowed me to see something more truly and deeply. [Ok, here we go, which God? The one who stood before you?] The encounter with No Name changed my plans. [An encounter? What a strange word to use. Was ‘No Name’,  The Christ by any chance? I bet he was.]

There was a clarity about what I was to be doing… and it was in partnership with the Batwa people. Moments of transfiguration set us on a trajectory of transformation toward the ultimate transfiguration of God’s beloved world. [Ultimate? When the False Christ declares himself God and you find yourself groveling at gun point at his feet instead of your own feet?] Moments of transfiguration, if we are open to them  recognize them and lean into them, recruit us to be agents of transformation on the ground. [Yip, you have to be open to it, you have to be open to accepting The Christ, for now at least...until you are forced.  Also the word AGENTS sent a chill down my spine. See definition of Agent at end of article].  That ground can be in Burundi among the Batwa people, in Pokot among warring tribes, in Gugulethu township among those still suffering injustice. [So this whole story is actually a metaphor for the ‘suffering of this entire earth’].

Those moments of seeing truly ignite something in us and inform the reality on the ground. [Yes, there is some seriously hot fire being ignited here] I believe that those moments of transfiguration set us on a God-ordained coarse [It is actually an ordained course if you want to put it that way. The Bible prophecies that all this will happen; that the world will eagerly accept a False Christ instead of Jesus Christ the Son of God because the human race so wants to be like God, they want power.  Satan is making the human race do the exact same thing he did.  He tried to be God], but also whet [sic] our appetite for consummation, [Just call it a pact with Satan and get it over and done with why don’t you! You are so sneaky with your words, lies, deceptive forked tongue…] for the ultimate transfiguration of the world.

I propose that we gathered here live between God-given moments of transfiguration and the ultimate transfiguration of all things. Between the bookends of transfiguration we live out the work of transformation. Changing the conditions on the ground is our day to day charge. ~ fostering healthy conversation amid election season ~ searching out parcels of land for a community development project for the landless ~ comforting the HIV/AIDS victims in the nearby slum ~ facilitating reconciliation among those in the grip of long-standing ethnic hostilities ~ fighting the ignorance and fear that gives rise to xenophobia ~ digging wells in arid communities ~ extending compassion to the widows of war ~ nurturing and housing the orphans ~ dismantling injust [sic] systems that keep people impoverished.

The first time we gathered in Uganda we spoke of the Gospel of Transformation [Gospel of Transformation?? I only know of the Gospel of Jesus Christ, the Word of God, the Bible]  that eclipses the old Gospel of Evacuation. [Ohhh, how silly of me, this NEW gospel wipes out/blocks out the Gospel of Jesus Christ] We are not merely about saving souls for Heaven so that we can escape this world, but we are engaged in the work of transformation here on earth in our communities. [Not about saving souls for Heaven…. You already said that, but thanks for the reminder.  I hope this reminder instills the URGENCY in people out there to WAKE UP to what is happening around them and accept Jesus Christ the Son of God into their lives and that their SOUL IS SAVED BEFORE IT’S TO LATE.  As per this NEW gospel, the earth now becomes Heaven.  The Kingdom of their god is to be created on earth, hence Jesus Christ of the Bible as per them does NOT come to take His Children home (those who are born again) but instead gives us power here on earth to rule WITH him (the False Christ that is)].

The Gospel of Jesus [You mean the Gospel of Transformation] propels us into our communities to bring the liberating and transforming message of Jesus [remember this is not the REAL Gospel of Jesus Christ, but a NEW gospel that has WIPED OUT/COMPLETELY BLOCKED OUT the OLD gospel, i.e., the Word of God, the Bible] to those living on ground zero. Last year we explored the ramifications of the Gospel of Reconciliation while in Rwanda. The work of reconciling, peace-making, forgiveness in places like Rwanda, Kenya, South Africa….

This is part of the gospel imperative entrusted to us by Jesus. [No, this is NOT the Gospel of Jesus Christ, you said so yourself above yourself]  Our work on the ground is spiritual. Our spirituality is expressed in these concrete actions – comforting, facilitating, nurturing, digging, fostering, housing and feeding. Our spiritual lives are lived out as agents of transformation. But our good works and good efforts need roots and nourishment to sustain us from moments of transfiguration to the ultimate transfiguration. [That’s it, the Man of Lawlessness is ALL about good works – you see if it appears good then it must be good…ah the human race are such fools and satan knows it too.]  To do the work of transformation without the accompanying spirituality is to run on empty. [In other words, to be an agent of the anti -Christ you need to have the same spirit in you – otherwise you won’t be able to show people that the False Christ is actually one great guy, who loves everyone, promises nothing but peace and prosperity and helps us understand that we are all connected, a global community, one brotherhood.]

As Africans we have been at this for a long time, haven’t we? [Yip, we have, the spirit of Mandela is legendary] We have been working to change the conditions on the ground. And it would seem we have such a long way to go. We cannot afford to let our wells run dry. What is ‘the spirituality of transformation’ (to borrow from Desmond Tutu yet again) that sustains us from beginning to glorious end? I think the African Reformation has to do with this very question. How have we been sustained thus far and how will we find nourishment in the season to come? Because the work is not done yet, we are still awaiting transfiguration, right? [And it’s not that far away I can tell you, but then you know that too. What 2 to 4 years?] What are the spiritual resources that will fund our transforming endeavors[Spiritual resources = accepting a false spirit that does nothing but ‘good works’]

This is what I hope we will explore together in the next set of days. I hope our sessions will be centered [Just have to sneak that word in, to wet those contemplative appetites] on this question, I hope our dinner conversations will be about how we each experience sustenance while tilling transformation on the ground in our home communities.

Brian McLaren writes that ‘spirituality’ is ‘a word that somehow captures the idea of a viable, sustainable, meaningful way of life.’ I have heard people speak about spirituality as an ethereal quality of life or as a set of religious activities. But I love how Brian describes spirituality – as a way of life. Viable: practical, workable, doable. Sustainable: nourishing for the long haul. Meaningful: rich with significance. Cultivating a viable, sustainable and meaningful way of life as agents of transformation in God’s world.

How do we do that? How do African voices illumine [Be a Christ light, illuminate the way] this inquiry? Desmond Tutu sketches out his own understanding of spirituality that is a good foundation for our discussions, I believe.

(1) The spirituality of transformation has a redemptive understanding of suffering. It does not surprise me that an African elder would make this connection between suffering and spirituality. [So this NEW gospel of Transformation is what redeems us, not repentance of SIN through Jesus Christ the Son of God who DIED for our SIN.  This false Christ has done nothing, he did NOT die for you, he is NOT God, he CAN’T redeem, he CAN’T forgive, all he can do is DESTROY your soul and send you to the same place the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob created FOR Satan – everlasting fire.] In Africa we have plenty of suffering, it is an unavoidable part of our landscape. We, as a continent, suffer ethnic injustice, food shortages, multiple health pandemics, lack of medical supplies, unfair trade agreements, land disputes, extreme poverty, and the sheer loss of life across Africa is a deep & perpetual suffering. [Who’s fault is that?  Wickedness is a direct result of being disconnected from God, through not wanting to accepting His Son Jesus Christ!  The people on the ground are just as wicked as the men in the governments.  Now I am going to use some logic based on the  Gospel of Inter-connectivenes (of course there is not such gospel, but seeing as though you guys can make stuff up as you go along then so can I).  So, seeing that we are all inter-conntected – that means that if the government is wicked then the majority of the people who voted them in are wicked too!]

According to Tutu, this suffering can either embitter us or ennoble [sic] us. We have seen both results across the continent – bitterness that spawns genocide and the nobility of Mandela when he walked out of 27 years of prison with a spirit of forgiveness. [*whispers very softly* did Maitreya meet with Mandela when he was in prison? Will that make Mandela an Ascended Master when his time on earth is up? hmmm]  But we have a choice to make when we encounter / endure suffering. [Sure do, you have A CHOICE to accept the anti-Christ over Jesus Christ, you have free will.  You will NEVER be able to tell God on judgment day that you didn’t have choice] Will we nurse the seeds of bitterness or die to those urges and resentments and instead cultivate nobility? [Nobility = Christ consciousness = god level]

Part of our spiritual tenor depends on how we choose to respond to the sufferings. Tutu points out that the reason we can allow suffering to ennoble us is a matter of context. “When we are able to see the larger purpose of our suffering, it is transformed, transmuted. It becomes redemptive suffering.”

When we realize that we are working toward the ultimate transfiguration of the world, today’s suffering is put in its place, in its rightful perspective. [What a load of manipulative rubbish] And we can suffer it, knowing it does not have the final word. The pain is transformed, redeemed and now somehow serviceable. It is part mystery, isn’t it? [That’s why everyone is returning to ancient knowledge, ancient paths, secret places, MYSTICISM]

Richard Rohr, a Catholic contemplative, adds that pain, if not transformed, will be transmitted. [TaDaaa, here we start with an explanation of how to hear The Christ’s voice, which they call Gods voice]  Think about that. If we do not allow our pain, our suffering to be transformed, it will be spread out to others or, in the very least, other parts of our own life. Think of all the untransformed pain and how it has spread – in genocide, xenophobia, rape, greed that deprives the poor. But when our pain is transformed it contributes to the healing of the world. [Roman Catholics obviously didn’t contemplate this too well over the last few hundred years for if they had they would not have gone around murdering and torturing Christians and Jews under the name of ‘God’. ] So then how we decide to respond to the pain & suffering in our life is a very spiritual matter. “It seems that in this universe redemption of any kind happens only through some form of suffering[They are alluding to the suffering of Jesus Christ (note this is not the Jesus Christ of the Bible).  Through his suffering he was transformed and transfigured, resurrected, rose to cosmic Christ level, ascended to a master;  an ascended master called Jesus of Nazereth].

Tutu concludes. Redemption: Suffering, Transfiguration: Pain, Resurrection: Cross.

[Those who love the TRUTH and Jesus Christ with all their hearts will see what is happening because the Holy Spirit is warning you, and you need to listen to Him right now!  Don’t be caught sleeping when the thief enters your home and robs you of everything you have with no way of getting it back – your soul.]

I think a lot of us look to the west as a mentor in many ways. We look at their prosperity, democracy, innovations and educational institutions. Maybe we even look to their churches for an example, for some equipping or even funding. But I think we need to consider how our western friends manage their suffering. I don’t think I am misrepresenting the truth when I say that most westerners work hard to avoid suffering at all costs and they have the resources to do it pretty well. A slight headache and they reach for an aspirin; a hard choice to be made and they distract themselves in front of the tv; a deep personal loss and they open the liquor cabinet or the refrigerator. Is this how we, in Africa, want to respond to suffering? Will this bring about a spiritual maturing that will contribute to the healing of the world? [Spiritual maturing = reaching god level] African and Western, we need to agree that facing our sufferings together might be the more wise choice, though it be a harder one.

Jesus told us to carry our cross, to follow in His footsteps into the inevitable suffering. And when I see the connection between suffering and redemption, it starts to make some strange sense. We follow in suffering, because we follow Him in redemption. They are connected. No cross, then no crown, it would seem. As we suffer, and allow that pain to be redeemed we contribute to the transfiguration of the world in some mystical way. [Occult = Mystical] We are partnering with Christ in the restoration of all things. [Wonder how much your shares cost to partner with the anti-Christ’s company]

(2) The spirituality of transformation has ubuntu as the foundational understanding of persons. ‘We are set in a delicate network of interdependence with our fellow human beings and all of creation” Tutu states. This is a foundational understanding for our humanity, as one connected to others. In Africa we call this ubuntu, We are persons through other persons. Our humanity is all bundled up together – yours, mine, those outside this camp, even those across the world. We are interconnected, [See above where I speak about being connected, global community, brotherhood etc.] and we are affected by the well-being of one another.

When someone is humiliated, I am humiliated. When another is going to bed on an empty stomach, I am not satiated. When you are broken-hearted, my joy cannot be complete. I am diminished when you are not well. We are connected. When I first visited the Batwa village of Bubanza, I was so stunned by the abject poverty of these people. Impermanent housing, so flimsy and unfit to endure the rains. A few potatoes in the pot, when there was a village of over 70 families to be fed. No access to schools, clean water or a local marketplace. I remember the deep, piercing awareness that I was less because Nazina’s family was living in such dire conditions. [I find it amazing that a simple man can cause a deep, piercing awareness, in other words, ‘Christ consciousness’.  When we see suffering it affects us, it’s shocks us, it saddens us, and we go out of our way to help, but what you are speaking about is something far more than just human emotion.  Ah I keep forgetting that NO NAME was not just a man, but The Christ, this is why he could pierce your heart so deeply]. I felt personally diminished by their circumstances, because I knew our shared humanity connected us in an unavoidable way.

I remember telling my wife I realized that my faith would mean nothing if I do not do something to change the situation on the ground in Bubanza. [And what would happen if you did not manage to change the situation in Bubanza?  What would happen to you?  But I am sure you just might get it right, but not by your own strength, but by the ‘Good Works Spirit’ in you] My very spirituality depended on the living conditions of the Batwa, on my connection to Nazina. That is ubuntu. [No your very soul depends on you not choosing Satan over Jesus Christ.]

I recall Marius coming to the States and addressing a group of Americans. He told them that partnering with Africa, caring for the situation on the ground in Africa was vital to their well-being. Why? Because if Africans were not well, then Americans were not well either. [In other words, if the entire world is not well then you are not well] The well-being of my American friends was dependant on and connected with the well-being of my brothers and sisters in Africa. Marius reminded us of our connection, ubuntu.

Now take this a step further… think about victims of genocide and the perpetrators of that same genocide. Even they are connected to one another, even they are diminished by the others suffering, ignorance and anger of the other. [So evil and good is one and the same?  Evil and good is connected together?  WoW! That would make God and Satan one and the same!]  They are not only connected by the violent act, they are connected in their very humanity, in their vulnerability. All must be healed – victim, perpetrator, survivor, beneficiary. This is why Jesus insists on forgiveness, to restore all parties. [Absolutely disgusting!  You twist the Word of God.  God who sent His Son Jesus Christ INSISTS on YOU asking HIM for forgiveness for YOUR SIN through HIS ONLY SON, so that you can be RESTORED to GOD. We are washed clean and spotless by the Blood of Jesus, so that Jesus can present us before a Holy Holy God. Until such time as you accept Jesus Christ into your life and are re-born of God’s Holy Spirit, God does NOT KNOW YOU for your sin separates you from God.  Asking each other for forgiveness is pretty stupid, but then again I suppose as per this NEW gospel it’s not that stupid considering we are gods and gods have the power to forgive.  But then, if we are gods and supreme surly we should not be forgiving one another because we can’t do wrong…umm…anyhow.  Lastly on this topic, NO I am not saying that we are not allowed to forgive each other for the things we do to one another, but the forgiveness needs to come from a genuine Christian heart, which can only come when we are truly born again – and this forgiveness does NOT redeem us or save our souls!]   To recognize the humanity in each one and call it out, to offer wholeness to each fractured soul.

Another stunning word from Desmond Tutu: ‘But if you are to be true partners with God in the transfiguration of His world and help bring this triumph of love over hatred… you must begin by understanding that as much as God loves you, God equally loves your enemies[If you don’t accept Jesus Christ, God’s only begotten Son as your Saviour and repent of your sin, come to have God’s Holy Spirit abide in you, be re-born, a new person in Jesus Christ and CHANGE your wicked ways then God does NOT KNOW YOU.] When we accept the truth of ubuntu we realize that we are all connected, even we and our enemies [Speak for yourself, I am in no way connected spiritually or in any other way to people like Mugabe and every other evil person in this world.  But hang on…a thought just occurred to me; are they saying that everyone, good and evil are actually connected to The Christ and don’t even know it? That when we contemplate, go into our inner self through silence we will fully connect with this god of the world.  No matter who you are, good and evil can come together and merge into one]. And God loves them as passionately as He loves us [Nope, He only loves those who love Him and accept His Son and repent of their sin] – we have this in common with those we hate, those who have hurt us, those who we think deserve our scorn. [Not our scorn BUT God’s scorn for those who are wicked and love evil over the World of God] Even then, we are connected. So our futures are intertwined. [Ahhh here we go, and I promise I did not even read this part when I wrote the above about good and evil finally coming together, merging into one]

So Jesus tells us to love our enemies, pray for them… because He knows that our healing is connected to theirs. [I was going to say, “What the?’ but I changed my mind] Ubuntu.

(3) The spirituality of transformation has a contemplative posture toward God. [There are techniques like Yoga and other rituals, lighting candles, breathing, clearing your mind of any thoughts, so you can hear god and not yourself and your busy mind]  By this, Tutu means that everyone is meant to have that space inside where they can hear God’s voice. This requires regular stillness, quiet, time alone. This is a large part of how we cultivate the contemplative space where we can hear. [Ok, finally, the how to get connected to Christ instructions.  I always wondered how everyone would just go nuts and worship the anti-Christ when he completely revealed himself to the world.  The answer: everyone would have unknowingly connected to him already.  The programs on TV telling you how to become spiritually aware, the books, right down to the ‘pastors’ in your church who welcome this NEW transformation gospel with open arms and are telling their congregation and the youth to try it too. I mean, if your pastor (the man of God) tells you its ok, then it must be!!  Practically everyone would have already heard the voice of God while trying to reach that silence place, reaching what they believed was God, when in fact it was Satan.  And then we also have that ‘fire’ being thrown around all over the place at church…sigh!]

So first there is the quiet. Next we lean in and listen – to the silence and then to the voice of God. [Re-read what I just said above] We also pray – we converse with God. Tending our unique and individual relationship with God provides nourishment for us as we engage in the community work to which we’ve been called. This constant conversation keeps our spirit supple before God, spiritually hydrated for the work. Finding such stillness might be the most challenging thing for us as we go about our daily business in our communities. We are constantly fielding calls, making visits, running errands, keeping up with all the social obligations. We are in constant motion – it seems an occupational hazard for agents of transformation[So, it is in our best interest to de-stress.  Not because it’s a good thing in general, but because if you go about de-stressing using the right technique then you allow yourself to get in touch with your inner self, your god-self.  And once this has happened you will be a successful agent to spread the technique to others and you will then everyone will be able work harder, even harder than before].

It would be easy to convince ourselves that our action is more important than our stillness. We have to get the food and blankets to the refugee camp in Nakuru, we need to provide shelter-meals-safety for the foreigners at the Warehouse, I have to become a make-shift ambulance and get this mother and child to the clinic… It is important that we do these things. No doubt, no question. No time for stillness today.

I have often heard it said that there is no hurry in Africa… but some days there seems to be no rest in Africa, either! We are busy on the ground doing important things that matter to our communities. And yet, stillness is a resource we cannot forgo. I think this is a challenge for all community organizers… making space to be still and quiet. Leaning into the practice of listening to God. [It’s all in the technique, the ritual, the spell] It might even seem counter-intuitive that stillness can fund motion, but it is true.

Richard Rohr observes that so much is happening in the world, in our communities, that cannot be fixed or explained. No amount or rushing, hurrying, driving, running will address all the challenges. However, they can be felt and suffered. And a contemplative person [An agent for The Christ] makes space for this, the contemplative agrees [An agent will always agree] to feel and to suffer the pain of the world with Christ. [I wonder if this includes being tortured and beheaded when you refuse to accept The Christ] The time in stillness may find us alone with God, but often His concerns are corporate. So we feel as He does, which keeps our hearts tender and compassionate. And we stay close to the suffering… coming back to where we began, it would seem.

The spirituality of transformation is a way of life that embraces suffering, knows it to be ultimately redemptive, and in stillness finds the resources to hold it until it is transfigured. Matt 16 says, “From that time on Jesus began to explain to his disciples that he must go to Jerusalem and suffer many things at the hands of the elders, chief priests and teachers of the law, and that he must be killed and on the third day be raised to life. Peter took him aside and began to rebuke him. “Never, Lord! This shall never happen to you!” Peter, just moments earlier had been dubbed The Rock. Now he rebukes Jesus when it comes to the looming suffering. Never, Lord!  [LIAR!!! This is not what this passage in the Bible means.]

Now remember, disciples were literally followers of their rabbi. [Jesus was not a Rabbi!!!] They would follow their rabbi so closely that it wasn’t uncommon for the dust from his feet to be all over them by the end of the day. They did what he did. So imagine your rabbi telling you he was about to suffer, to die. Guess where you are headed? Now you understand part of Peter’s passionate rebuke! He did not want to suffer or die, either. He and Jesus exchange some words. And we recall what Jesus tells the disciples at this point – If anyone would come after me, he must deny himself and take up his cross and follow me. [Yes, repent of their sin, change their ways, hate the wickedness of this world, be born again and spread the gospel of Jesus Christ, the TRUTH so that they may be saved, their souls saved!  Jesus was not talking about his disciples becoming just like Him (God) if they suffered!!]  He tells them point blank that if they want to continue to follow him, they are headed into suffering. “And six days later Jesus took with him Peter, James and John… high up on a mountain. There he was transfigured before them.” They saw Jesus truly, deeply. Peter wanted to build a tent, to [sic] tabernacle there, to rest there in the glory of that luminous mountain with Jesus and the others. Sounds nice, actually. But after a brief moment, Jesus sends them back down the mountain. Back to the previous trajectory of suffering. He sends them back into the world. But this moment of transfiguration, where they see Jesus truly, fortifies them for what is to come.

They will walk the suffering, witness the Cross and endure the perils of church planting, sustained by that moment of transfiguration. The moment of transfiguration reframed the coming suffering as redemptive. Years later, as a seasoned pastor, Peter will refer to that moment saying, “we were eye witnesses to His majesty… we were with Him on the holy mountain.” All those years, that moment sustained him. You get the sense that many times, amid much hardship, he has held on to that moment. It sustained him as a transformer of the early church.

[Oh my word, this is just too much for me to actually take right now; the LIES, MANIPULATION and TWISTING of the Word of God is unbelievable!  I will write a bit more on the above a bit later, in the mean time I want to get this article out]

ABOUT AMAHORO

Amahoro Africa is working to see the Gospel of Jesus bringing transformation to communities across Africa. We facilitate holistic transformation by encouraging, resourcing and connecting emerging African leaders who are committed to the tangible manifestation of justice, mercy and goodness in their local context.

Amahoro Africa works with those, African or not, who desire to engage in respectful partnerships that intend to further transformation in African communities in the name and spirit of Jesus. We are excited to work alongside those who are willing to themselves be changed in the process of these friendships with African leaders.

VISION

Amahoro Africa’s vision is to partner with emerging leaders, encouraging them in the way of Jesus to love, serve and transform their countries.

MISSION

Amahoro Africa identifies and connects African leaders by creating theological, relational and transformational space.

A full list of conversation partners will be sent out in due course, but invited speakers include Desmond Tutu (emeritus Archbishop, RSA), John de Gruchy (theologian, RSA), Brian McLaren (author, USA), Glenda Wildschut (TRC comissioner, RSA), Edward Antonio (theologian, Zimbabwe), Sam Kareithi (developmental economist, Kenya), Pam Wilhelms (sustainability consultant, USA) and Vishal Mangalwadi (author, India). We are expecting about 300 participants from Africa and a 100 from the rest of the world.

—————

Definition of AGENT   from  www.thefreedictionary.com/agent

a·gent ( j nt)
n. 1. One that acts or has the power or authority to act.
2. One empowered to act for or represent another
3. A means by which something is done or caused; instrument.
4. A force or substance that causes a change:
5. A representative or official of a government or administrative department of a government
6. A spy.
7. Linguistics The noun or noun phrase that specifies the person through whom or the means by which an action is effected.
 
v. a·gent·ed, a·gent·ing, a·gents
v.tr. To act as an agent or representative for:  
v.intr. To act as an agent or representative.
 

[Edited 20/6]  It would appear as per the Emergent One World Religion-ers that my views expressed above is the “very worst of modernity“.  This is because my views which are Bible based views  and do not align with Post-Modernism.  Post-Modernism has some very serious undertones of socialism, everyone needs to think the same, and if you do not want to connect with them, build a relationship with them, it’s considered negative. 

Post-Modernity opposes the Word of God in that:

  • There is no such thing as right or wrong
  • There is no such thing as good or evil
  • No good or bad
  • There is no truth.

Now please go read this article.

Mandela, Maitreya and a Rainbow Nation: http://www.discerningtheworld.com/2009/06/11/nelson-mandela-and-maitreya-the-christ-meet/

** Please take note: I wrote the above article on “Mandela, Maitreya and a Rainbow Nation” last year April 2008 this was over a year ago.  I re-published it again on the 11th June 09 because it is very very important that people see the truth.

See article here which proves Nelson Mandela, Mbeki and Tutu are all Freemasons:


   
Resources:
Source of main article:
About Amahoro:  www.amahoro-africa.org/amahoro_africa/about-amahoro.html
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18 comments to Amahoro – Take Over Africa and Then the World

  • Discerning The World

    ARTICLE WRITTEN 5 APR 2008: Mandela, Maitreya and a Rainbow Nation

  • Roger

    Thanks for your post, DTW. It’s great that you’ve worked through Claude’s talk and have posted your comments directly after what he wrote, so that we can follow the direction of your thought.

    After reading your post, I’ve come to the following conclusions about Amahoro:
    – It’s a group of people who are bent upon distorting the Christ of the Bible to mean what they want Him to mean, and are encouraging Bible-believing Christians to worship the False Christ, which is not Jesus but a fake Christ, so that we think we can become gods. God is going to deliver a terrible judgement on the world because of this, and also on those involved at Amahoro.
    – They are saying that people don’t have freedom (“No situation is untransfigurable”) which is of course, rubbish.
    – They are encouraging people to be exalted to a Christ-consciousness level, to a god-level (and that’s an appearance, not the reality).
    – They will probably worship the False Christ when he appears, rather than the true Christ.
    – While appearing to speak the truth, they are engaging in speaking deception and lies, and are probably, as you said, “in a pact with Satan.”
    – It’s disturbing that this new gospel wipes out the “old” gospel, the gospel of Jesus, since it has nothing to do with saving souls for heaven. They don’t think that Jesus is coming back to take his children home, but that they’re going to rule the earth with Christ (the false Christ).
    – In fact, Amahoro is all about good works, and nothing more than that.
    – They have a disturbing idea that we’re all part of one global brotherhood, one community.
    – They are spreading the evil idea of contemplation.
    – They don’t seem to realise that all of our problems come from being separated from God, that if only everyone was worshipping him in spirit and truth as Christians, only then we’d have peace.
    – I’m continually appalled at how Catholics went around torturing Christians and Jews under the name of ‘God’. Clearly contemplation doesn’t work.
    – “Mystical” = “occult” and that’s exactly what Amahoro is about.
    – This idea that “If the whole world is not well then I’m not well” is rubbish. The state of the rest of the world has nothing to do with the state of my soul. I am personally accountable before God, nothing more, nothing less. The rest of the world has nothing to do with it. I can’t believe Amahoro buys into this!
    – “Evil and good are one and the same”?!?! What?! Yes, I read that right: Amahoro is saying that God and Satan are the same!
    – You’re absolutely correct that “Asking each other for forgiveness is pretty stupid.” Forgiveness comes from a Christian heart, and only Jesus has the power to forgive sins. They’re twisting the Word of God.
    – As you say, “He only loves those who love Him and accept His Son and repent of their sin” you’re quite right. I can’t believe Claude can say something like, “And God loves [our enemies] as passionately as He loves us.” That’s obviously wrong – I’m glad you have the courage to point this out. People need to warned against Amahoro and what they are doing.
    – Your critique of contemplation is correct. You write: “It’s all in the technique, the ritual, the spell”. While Amahoro probably isn’t openly into witchcraft, it’s probably only a matter of time.
    – I also salute your courage to call Claude a LIAR!!! when he deserves it. Twisting that passage of Scripture to mean something different – he needs to be called on that, well done.
    – As you say, “Jesus was not a rabbi.” Of course he wasn’t! Sure, he was a respected teacher, but nobody called him a rabbi. I don’t know where Claude gets this from. He probably doesn’t read his Bible much.

    You’ve reminded me of some theological truths:
    – Jesus died for our sin, and is coming to save us from the coming judgement. The important thing is not that we “participate in the transformation of the world” but that we help people to confess their sins and make right with God.
    – God doesn’t love everyone, he only loves those who love Him and accept His Son and repent of their sin.
    – it’s not possible to collaborate with Christ, since he hasn’t returned (he sits at the right hand of the Father and has not yet returned). So these people from Amahoro are clearly collaborating with *something* – and it’s clearly the False Christ.

    Thank you, DTW, for posting this – I’ll be on guard against Amahoro and their false gospel of transformation.

  • Frank Talk

    have read hte post and rogers comments. must say i agree with both of you. amahoro love witchcraft, satan and contempltive prayer. they are liars. they want a new gospel to wipe out the old. jesus never said “love your enemy”. he never said to forgive others and anwyay, god only loves christians – he hates everyone else.

  • Discerning The World

    Frank Talk / Roger

    Let’s be frank, Roger. You and Roger are one and the same person… How could you have read Roger’s post when I had not even approved it yet. Nevermind that you use the same email address, lets not mention your IP.

    Come now… there are two options for split personalities, 1) Prayer AND 2) a psychiatrist

  • Discerning The World

    Roger / Frank (cos you post with multiple names – might we call it two faces)

    Thanks for you sarcasim but thanks for the summary too…I am very very happy that you completely understand what I have said and summarised it for others so they may benefit from it. It’s just a pity though that you can’t see what you have written.

  • Roger

    Busted! Outed! How embarrassing! Deary me.

    My psychiatrist is praying for me. Both of me.

    I’m glad you could recognise my sarcasm, although I prefer to think of it as satire. You’re someone who is clearly bent upon attacking anything and everything which you disagree with, and doing so in a cynical spirit without bothering to do much research. Keep on going – I’m sure you’re doing good work!

    I’ve been following Amahoro for a while and let me say this much: you have it wrong. They’re not about to kneel down and worship a false Christ, although I don’t think I could say anything which will make you change your mind about them. You’re so convinced that you are right that no evidence from an alternative source will change your mind. Nothing. Nada. Should I try? Has this debate been “won” by you for it has started? Have you appointed yourself judge, jury and executioner? I think so.

    And so here are a few points, written in the hope that others who have a slightly more open mind may evaluate them.

    1. Jesus was a rabbi. He was a teacher in the Jewish tradition and was called as such. Go and find someone who knows some Biblical Greek and ask them. Even better, find a Messianic Jew and ask them. Even better, find a Jew and ask them.

    2. “Love your enemies” is indeed found in the Bible. It’s one of the hardest commandments to stomach, let alone follow.

    3. God doesn’t love only Christians. If that was the case, then he didn’t love me before I was a Christian! I don’t want to get into a Scripture-slinging match, but that’s the risk: John 3:16. “For God so loved the world…” Similarly, Jesus confirms this by answering the question “Who is my neighbour?” after he gives the commandment, “Love your neighbour as you love yourself.” Interesting that the example Jesus chose in the story of the Good Samaritan could be recast in contemporary times (in a decent job of dynamic translation) as the story of the Good Muslim, or the Good Gay, or the Good Fundamentalist, or the Good Emergent, or the Good ANC President.

    4. If there is to be any peace in this world (and I hope I don’t have to make the case for why peace is a GOOD thing) then Christians and Muslims are going to have to figure it out. Not that that’s the only solution, but unless there is peace between these two great religions, the world will blow itself to smithereens.

    Thank you. I take a bow. And reiterate:

    My psychiatrist is praying for me. Both of me.

  • Discerning The World

    Roger

    >> someone who is clearly bent upon attacking anything and everything which you disagree with

    Oh I am sorry, next time you get ripped off by a con artist (liar), please don’t disagree that you were taken for a ride, just keep going…follow the masses of those who get rapped over the nuckles for disagreeing. Just keep on going…or the Nemo syndrome: Just keep swimming, just keep swimming…(get the tune going….) just keep swimming…just keep swimming…

    >> cynical spirit

    Oh another spirit with a name…whats’ next; the satirical spirit. I’ve heard of the Joshua spirit, John the Baptist spirit, Moses spirit, David spirit, Elijah spirit, The spirit (yeah this one didn’t even get a name…shame), the Esther spiritand the dreaded, Religious spirit!

    >> I’ve been following Amahoro for a while and let me say this much: you have it wrong.

    Oh oh oh are you disagreeing with me? Don’t do that…it’s bad to disagree with everthing and everthing.

    >> Have you appointed yourself judge, jury and executioner?

    Speaketh for yourself…

    >> Jesus was a rabbi.

    Jesus IS the Son of God!! King of Kings, not some lowly Rabbi. Just because this term was used on earth, He has risen and is ALL POWER AND ALL GLORY – when He returns he comes to bring JUDGEMENT and EXECUTION.

    >> Love your enemies” is indeed found in the Bible. It’s one of the hardest commandments to stomach, let alone follow

    Oh such an over stated comment by the Emergies. I warn because I love! Next time you find someone who has a bus heading straight for them (no matter who they are) don’t warn them…whatever you do, please don’t warn then. Instead tell them to not disagree with the bus.

    >> God doesn’t love only Christians. If that was the case, then he didn’t love me before I was a Christian!

    So what you’re saying is that EVERYONE is going to live in paradise? And you twist this scripture to suit your own ideas. And of course he loves you, that’s why He sent his ONLY SON to DIE the most horrific death for you. How prideful to think that you can tell God what He can and can not think about you. How selfish are you to not realise that Jesus had to die that you may be saved – IF YOU ACCEPT HIM. And yes I too was going to perish before I was genuinely saved. You want to know something interesting. Because you refuse to accept the only TRUTH the complete Word of God and want to bend to every god that comes your way, you in effect send yourself into everlasting damnation. You make your own choice…it’s all up to you believe it…or not.

    But you can choose the cushy Christ who will tell you….”Nooo God would never say that, would he?” He loves everyone? Surely?

    John 3:16

    16 “For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.

    So, it clearly states, that if you do NOT believe in the ONLY Son of God, Jesus Christ then you will perish. Simple, no hidden meaning. But I am sure you will search and search and search to find one.

    I know you would love to change the rules, but you can’t. The new Christ had been trying to change the rules since he had himself kicked out of Heaven…and he is still going it…and everyone is following him…cos he speaks peace, happiness and joy…when in fact the world is going to end in the most horrific manner – but you believed him when he says, ‘nooooo, it’s gonna be bliss”.

    >> Love your neighbour as you love yourself.”

    Of course that is why we WARN EVERYONE, no matter their race, coulour, language because we LOVE THEM. That they are going to perish if they don’t believe in Jesus Christ the Son of God. Repent of their Sin, be born again through God’s Holy Spirit. Jesus Christ is the WAY the TRUTH and the LIFE NO MAN comes to the FATHER BUT through HIM.

    >> Interesting that the example Jesus chose in the story of the Good Samaritan could be recast in contemporary times (in a decent job of dynamic translation) as the story of the Good Muslim, or the Good Gay, or the Good Fundamentalist, or the Good Emergent, or the Good ANC President.

    Oh so what you are saying is that ALL faiths lead to the same God. Go on say it. But we have the problem: Allah has no son, Krishna has no son, Buddha has no son – so how can all religions lead to the of God if the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob who gave HIS ONLY BEGOTTEN SON so that WHOEVER believes in HIM will be SAVED.

    The Emergent version of the Samaritan; “they come bearing food and clothes, water wells and transformation. But the real reason for their presence is to fool the people into thinking that the one who brings these things is Jesus of the Bible. I mean, if that’s who they say they believe in then surely that’s who they believe in right? Not necessarily. In this case…pretty good chance it’s just an outright NO.

    >> Christians and Muslims are going to have to figure it out. Not that that’s the only solution, but unless there is peace between these two great religions, the world will blow itself to smithereens

    Jesus said there will never be peace, for He came to bring a sword (the Word of God) and all those who love the Word of God and adhere to it will be HATED. So much for loving your neighbor, hey? The New Christian speaks of love, and dialogue, but it will soon come to the point where the love and dialogue will only be for those who follow The Christ.

    Thank you, I take a bow. And I reiterate:

    God who sent His Son Jesus Christ INSISTS on YOU asking HIM for forgiveness for YOUR SIN through HIS ONLY SON, so that you can be RESTORED to GOD. We are washed clean and spotless by the Blood of Jesus when he was crucified so that we may be save. Because of this Jesus can present us before a Holy Holy God. Until such time as you accept Jesus Christ into your life and are re-born of God’s Holy Spirit, God does NOT KNOW YOU for your sin separates you from God.

    Reiterate for Frank: (sorry I could not help speaking to Frank…it’s my humorous spirit lol)

    Accept Jesus Christ the Son of God, repent of their sin, change their ways, hate the wickedness of this world, be born again and spread the gospel of Jesus Christ, the TRUTH so that they may be saved, with all long suffering – spread the gospel of Jesus to a world who refuses to listen, but prefer to follow false Christ(s) instead. And yes many many false Christ’s have gone forth since the beginning and deceived. But the Man of Lawlessness is here, and if you are not careful…you will find yourself being forced to bow before him. And if you disagree, you WILL find yourself in a biiiiiiiiit of a predicament.

    Will leave you with this verse:

    Luke 18:7-8

    7 now, will not God bring about justice for His elect who cry to Him day and night, and will He delay long over them?

    8 “I tell you that He will bring about justice for them quickly. However, when the Son of Man comes, will He find faith on the earth?”
    The born again Christians are crying out, praying to God to keep them safe, protect them. The bible says that God will come quickly to avenge their suffering; He will bring about justice towards the persecutors. And justice will be swift! Then it carries on to say that when Jesus Christ returns He doubts He will find much faith left on earth.

    Hmmm….and you were saying?

  • Discerning The World

    Roger/Frank

    Oh boy….just keep swimming…just keep swimming….

  • Roger

    Wow, DTW, wow. That was an amazing display of deliberate misunderstanding – I’m pretty impressed! If there was an Oscar’s for twisting someone else’s words, well, you’d win it! I’d vote for you too!

    I salute your ability to pick and choose what you want to fight with, and to leave the rest alone. Dude, that’s a spiritual gift. Please never go into academia, for your own sake: your first essay will be returned post-haste.

    You have no idea about me or what I believe, but you have cunningly read my mind before I’ve been able to explain the specifics you accuse me of. You must have supernatural powers!

    In your first paragraph above, you state your belief that the only way to disagree with someone is to attack them. Good luck in your relationships (and I hope you never disagree with God).

    You don’t answer my “cynical spirit” charge so let me phrase it another way: your online interactions are drenched in cynicism. Are your face-to-face relationships the same?

    Your answer to my “Jesus was a rabbi” statement shows that, theologically, you are almost completely on the “transcendence” side on have nothing on the “immanence” side. This gives you a holy, wrathful God who has no compassion. You would probably say that I’m on the other side – but I’ve yet to present my case!

    Thank you for warning me about the bus which is going to hit me. I happen to think you’re mistaken, and this is based upon engagement with my community, reflection upon Scripture, the tradition of the Church, and much prayer. I continue to work out my salvation with fear and trembling.

    I have rather a good idea that you don’t care one bit about me, but enjoy whacking me over the head with your correct theology, which is, of course, the theology of the Bible. Having read your blog, it’s no wonder people who disagree with you don’t stick around. Are your friends all people who share the same perspective as you?

    Perhaps you’ve forgotten why God wrestled with Jacob, and why the Judeo-Christian tradition is defined by this wrestling.

    How do you reconcile the false Christ bringing peace with Jesus being called the Prince of Peace? With the angels singing, “Peace on earth and goodwill to all men”?

    And equally, how do you get past this line in the Lord’s prayer – which the Church has conveniently forgotten over the last 200 years: “Your Kingdom come, on earth as it is in heaven.” That’s not an eschatalogical statement, that’s a prayer for it happening now. Inaugurated eschatalogy, if you want the technical term.

    You’re warning people because you love them – great! In what other ways are you demonstrating your love for people?

    You said, “Oh so what you are saying is that ALL faiths lead to the same God.” Yes, I said that. Oh wait, I didn’t. You put those words in my mouth. You do that a lot, don’t you?

    So your hope for Muslims is what, exactly? What about those ones who won’t become Christians? You wash your hands of them and don’t care what happens to them?

    “God who sent His Son Jesus Christ INSISTS on YOU asking HIM for forgiveness for YOUR SIN through HIS ONLY SON, so that you can be RESTORED to GOD.” Amen! So why is it that those who are restored to God are the most arrogant, unloving, ungraceful people around? For the fruit of the spirit is…what, exactly? DTW, if you are what a Christian is, I do not want to be a Christian.

    I think this paragraph sums up your theology quite well:

    “Of course that is why we WARN EVERYONE, no matter their race, coulour, language because we LOVE THEM. That they are going to perish if they don’t believe in Jesus Christ the Son of God. Repent of their Sin, be born again through God’s Holy Spirit. Jesus Christ is the WAY the TRUTH and the LIFE NO MAN comes to the FATHER BUT through HIM.”

    Now, this was the same gospel preached during Apartheid South Africa as Christians were quite content to oppress their neighbour. It was the same gospel that was preached to First Nations people in Canada, as their native tongue and religion was beaten out of them by Christians. It was the same gospel which sustained slave traders as they kidnapped millions of Africans.

    Want me to listen to your gospel? Give me a compelling critique of how this gospel was wrongly used during all of the above times, what we learn from it, and how it has changed. Or just continue mindless attacking others – I guess you have to express your anger *somehow.*

  • Discerning The World

    Roger

    >> Give me a compelling critique of how this gospel was wrongly used during all of the above times, what we learn from it, and how it has changed

    You can’t be serious? Did you read my comments above…oh wait you actually summarised it…*sighs*

    >> This conversation with you is like trying to nail jello to a wall.

    Just call me Flubber! Getting splattered all over the place as I repeat myself over and over and over again. Well enough of that…

    I tell you what, go open your own blog and preach the opposite to what I say (actually I am sure I said that to someone in the About This Blog page)….honestly I don’t have time here to hold your hand over tea and scones when there are millions of others who actually care for the truth that Jesus Christ gave HIS LIFE to SAVE YOUR SOUL that you will NOT PERISH because we are all born into a sinful world. Those who refuse Him will prerish, those who accept Him and repent of their Sin will be saved. (Unlike Ama’horror’ that is not into saving souls at all).

    Besides, all you have to do is open your Bible and study the scriptures for yourself. Easy peasy….

    Lastly, I can’t make you care, and I would never force you to care for the true Gospel of Jesus Christ. Unlike the Man of Lawlessness who will force you to worship him, make sure you won’t be able to buy and sell without taking his mark. Yes, that means coffee will be out of the question soon for those who follow Jesus Christ the Son of God. Maybe I should take you up on that offer while I still can…

    It’s all upto you. Your choice. Choose Jesus Christ or a counterfeit Christ. Cos that’s what it’s going to come down too. The entire world is going to be asked this question, direclty or indirectly very soon.

  • Roger

    This is actually a pretty simple challenge – are you up for it? “Give me a compelling critique of how this gospel was wrongly used during all of the above times, what we learn from it, and how it has changed.”

    *sigh* This conversation with you is like trying to nail jello to a wall. Well, since blogging isn’t working, how about a face-to-face? I’m always up for coffee – how about you?

  • Discerning The World

    Roger

    >> DTW, my summary was the making a point by reductio ad absurdum (reducing things to their most absurd, and thereby making the opposite point).

    YES Roger, I know. But in trying to make the Gospel of Jesus Christ into something ABSURD you actually took all the important points and highlighted them. Anyone whos cares for the TRUTH however when reading you comment would just ignore your reductio ad absurdum.

    >> So, are you scared of a face-to-face coffee? You didn’t answer directly. I’m in Joburg – where are you?

    I said, “honestly I don’t have time here to hold your hand over tea and scones” So that’s a no, what part of that didn’t you understand.

    You have the Bible do you not? Go read it over the duration of a few thousand cups of coffee,

    >> “The gospel is about the forgiveness of sins,” and not owning up to the ways that gospel was used in evil ways does nothing to further this conversation

    FINALLY my last say. Genuine Christians WILL NEVER USE THE WORD OF GOD FOR EVIL. Gee whiskers…what’s wrong with you. The atrocities committed throughout the centuries have been by Roman Catholics, they murdered everyone who refused to adhere to them. Roman Catholocism is NOT Christian and NEVER will be.

    And if you say the gospel was used for evil, BUT the Emergent teaching is all about ALL faiths LEADING TO ONE GOD…are you AGREEING that the teaching of Islam is in effect evil, or Buddhist teachings are evil when they went on a rampage and killed a few hundred people in Inda recently? What ‘gospel’ are THEY following??? The Bible? Please, stop contradicting youself…really.

    You say I put words in your mouth, the problem is Roger, you don’t SAY WHAT YOU MEAN.

    Go contemplate on that will you…breath, clear your thoughts, remove any logicical thinking, switch off that brain that God gave you…you can ask that catholic comtemplative prayer person (whatever his name was – it’s in the above article) on how to do it.

  • Roger

    I wrote: “Give me a compelling critique of how this gospel was wrongly used during all of the above times, what we learn from it, and how it has changed.”

    You replied: “You can’t be serious? Did you read my comments above…oh wait you actually summarised it…*sighs*”

    DTW, my summary was the making a point by reductio ad absurdum (reducing things to their most absurd, and thereby making the opposite point). Amahoro are not about the things you accuse them of (witchcraft?! Seriously?!). Simply repeating over and over again, “The gospel is about the forgiveness of sins,” and not owning up to the ways that gospel was used in evil ways does nothing to further this conversation. I’m still waiting for you to make a single point about that.

    So, are you scared of a face-to-face coffee? You didn’t answer directly. I’m in Joburg – where are you?

  • Amanda

    Roger

    The Gospel that was preached during the apartheid (segregation) years was this:

    Now I would remind you, brothers, of the gospel I preached to you, which you received, in which you stand, and by which you are being saved, if you hold fast to the word I preached to you–unless you believed in vain. For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received: that Christ died for our sins in accordance with the Scriptures, that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day in accordance with the Scriptures,
    (1Co 15:1-4)

    That is it. That is what saves people into the Body of Christ. I don’t see how you can ‘wrongly use’ this Gospel except by changing or denying it.

    Why do you call Islam a great religion? Are you aware that all Muslims are commanded to fight Jihad until the whole world submits to their god and then there will be peace? There is nothing they can do about that, except obey. They certainly cannot ‘figure’ it out. The Koran is very clear about this and it cannot be changed. Who made you believe that true peace is possible? Who made you believe that the Gospel may be changed? In fact, Roger, you are doing exactly what you accuse political leaders of doing: using the Bible to engineer a social political change.

    Do you agree that the solution to the world’s problems is to share?

  • Roger

    Discerning The World, I didn’t make the gospel absurd in my reductio ad absurdum – I made your analysis of Amahoro absurd.

    As for not wanting to hold my hand over tea and scones, you have my complete agreement! (I’d prefer cucumber sandwiches anyway). I’m just confused as to why you choose to hide behind an online nickname when you could come out and tell us all who you are. Clearly that’s why you don’t want to meet me for coffee – you’re worried that your real name might get out, and you’ll be out of the closet, exposed. Ok, that’s your choice. My offer still stands. Wear a paper bag over your head if you want.

    Amanda, do you know why DTW is so scared of meeting me for coffee?

    DTW: “Genuine Christians WILL NEVER USE THE WORD OF GOD FOR EVIL.” Go and read some history – you’ll find it quite hard to blame all the wrong things Christians did on Catholics, as if all other Christians were innocent. Simply being Methodist or Baptist or Anglican or Reformed does not mean that what somebody does is suddenly correct. Good Christians (Catholic and Protestant) supported slavery. Good Christians (Catholic and Protestant) supported Apartheid. Good Christians (Catholic and Protestant) supported Hitler. Simply pretending otherwise is naive.

    As Christians, one of the tasks before us is to confess our sins, even if (and especially if) those sins are when we use Jesus in our own power games, to steal from others. This is a hard truth. Here’s one example. When Christians (who were fleeing religious persecution) came to South Africa, they had the Bible, and the local Africans had the land. A few centuries later, the equation was reversed. The Bible is used for some quite horrendous things which seemed like the will of God at the time. Merely having the Bible does not give us license to steal from others!

    Perhaps you will one day meet some Catholics who confess Jesus with their lips and believe him in their hearts – I have. By Biblical standards, this makes them Christians.

    If you’re referring to the Crusades when you talk about Catholics murdering others, lets remember that this was pre-Reformation. It wasn’t Catholics murdering others, it was Christians doing that. Until we’re honest about that to Muslims, we allow a huge blockage to get between the word of God, and them. Do you want to play a part in cementing this blockage, or removing it?

    The Emergent teaching (whatever that is) is not about all faiths leading to one God – I don’t know where you get that. I don’t know enough about the internal tensions with Islam and Buddhism to comment about them, but I know to judge them on the fruit they lead to, and one of the fruits of the spirit is peace. If a religion does not lead to peace, the Holy Spirit is not working within it. If your Christian faith does not lead you to be a peacemaker, same thing.

    Amanda, thank you for answering my question. Yes, you’re right – that gospel is the gospel that was preached during Apartheid. And people believed it, and were saved.

    So now why did these Christians who were saved into the Body of Christ still do evil things in the name of God? And I’m not talking about the accidental things they unwittingly did, I’m talking about the evil that was committed in the name of God, but those part of the body of Christ, who were saved by that Gospel, yet who persisted in using that same Gospel to subjugate and abuse those they had power over.

    That’s the point – that the Gospel isn’t just about setting me right before God by taking care of my sin, it’s also about what happens after that point. Jesus said, “Blessed are the peacemakers,” and so we work for peace. This is an outworking of our salvation, not a means to salvation.

    Paul outlines the fruit of the spirit: love, joy, peace, patience, etc. The prophets talk about justice, and so we work for justice, because this is what God is about, to bring justice to the earth.

    God cares about the poor – it’s all over the pages of Scripture. And so we help the poor where we can and with what we have – not only relationally, but also by improving the systems which helped make those people poor in the first place. And we do this as an outworking of our relationship with God, because that is what God is about. Caring about the widows and orphans, the poor and homeless.

    I’ll answer your question about Muslims over coffee, Amanda.

  • Discerning The World

    Roger

    bla bla bla…NO is NO Roger…or Frank…or…whoever you are

    And stop trying to quote from the ‘pages of scripture’ your ‘analysis’ or what you think the ‘scriptures’ means is ABSURD.

  • Amanda

    Merely having the Bible does not give us license to steal from others!

    I agree. Yet you are all for the redistribution of wealth. Are you hoping for Marxism for South Africa? You are welcome to your own political ideas. But you are emerging from Christianity in order to achieve your political agenda and are perturbed when the fundamentalists point this out to warn Christians.

    Until we’re honest about that to Muslims, we allow a huge blockage to get between the word of God, and them. Do you want to play a part in cementing this blockage, or removing it?

    Roger. The Crusades were a defensive war to take back land stolen by Islam. And the Muslims are not apologizing for the worldwide Jihad raging at this moment.

    The Emergent teaching (whatever that is) is not about all faiths leading to one God – I don’t know where you get that.

    Phyllis Tickle. Rob Bell. Doug Paggit. Roger.

    I don’t know enough about the internal tensions with Islam and Buddhism to comment about them, but I know to judge them on the fruit they lead to, and one of the fruits of the spirit is peace.

    Yes, Islam leads to peace when all are submitted under Sharia law. There is the land of peace, where Sharia is the law of the land and the land of war, where Sharia is not yet the law of the land. All Muslims are required to wage Jihad until the whole world submits to Allah. Judge that fruit.

    If a religion does not lead to peace, the Holy Spirit is not working within it.

    Roger? Islam is the religion of peace. Are you saying that the Holy Spirit is therefore working in Islam?

    If your Christian faith does not lead you to be a peacemaker, same thing.

    The emerging movement is bringing division into the church. When they stop pretending to be Christian and join Maitreya openly, then there will be peace in the church.

    So now why did these Christians who were saved into the Body of Christ still do evil things in the name of God?

    Did you actually listen how Chris Rosebrough explained this in the second program? I have a question for you, Roger. Do poor people sin? Do the oppressed sin?

    That’s the point – that the Gospel isn’t just about setting me right before God by taking care of my sin, it’s also about what happens after that point. Jesus said, “Blessed are the peacemakers,” and so we work for peace. This is an outworking of our salvation, not a means to salvation.

    Oops. We are saved by the Gospel, only to be placed back under the bondage of the Law? You err greatly, Roger. You covet the good works of Christianity, yet you have no idea what it is to be a Christian. You misjudge what it is that Jesus Christ accomplished by living a perfect life for me and dying on the Cross for me.

    The prophets talk about justice, and so we work for justice,

    And justice is when everybody has the same? What do you think of Maitreya?

    because this is what God is about, to bring justice to the earth.

    Jesus Christ is coming back to judge the living and the dead and, if I might add, that means the rich and the poor.

    And we do this as an outworking of our relationship with God, because that is what God is about. Caring about the widows and orphans, the poor and homeless.

    Roger, do you believe that God could send a widow and an orphan, a poor or homeless man to hell?

    I’ll answer your question about Muslims over coffee, Amanda.

    I think you already have. Maybe you misunderstand what this is about? The fundamental doctrines of Christianity are not up for discussion. We warn that the emerging movement is about changing Christianity. Repent and believe the Gospel. Without that you are lost, no matter how many ‘good’ deeds you might do.

  • Amanda

    Phyllis Tickle. Rob Bell. Doug Paggit. Roger.

    And Nic Paton. But you knew that, didn’t you, Roger?

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Because this world is becoming more evil by the minute and Discerning the World is coming under attack more often from people with some very nasty dispositions, we now have ‘Terms and Conditions for Submission of Comments‘ which you need to agree too before you can comment – this is to protect us and you when you comment on this website.  If you are not here to harm Discerning the World and it’s authors, please by all means comment, however if you are here to cause harm in any way, please don’t comment.

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