The Rapture and the Truth

The Rapture and the TruthThe Rapture: Context, Exegesis, Eisegesis and the Truth

The Rapture – Christians are exhorted to read and interpret biblical passages in their proper context and to avoid eisegetical interpretations of Scripture in favour of exegetical ones. Of course, all these tools are essential for an accurate understanding of many difficult passages in Scripture.

Scott Pruitt - the rapture

Scott Pruitt

As a matter of interest, most of the present day false teachings and outright heresies are the results of context manipulation and eisegesis falsities. Nonetheless, blaming your misinterpretation of Scripture on your misunderstanding of the assumed complexities in Scripture will never exempt you from God’s righteous judgments. No one will ever be in a position to say “I misunderstood the context of such and such a passage and therefore you may not judge me.” Pay attention to what Brother Peter said,

Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless. And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you; As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction. (2 Peter 3:14-16).

Peter says in effect, “It’s OK when you do not always understand difficult passages in Scripture but beware of wresting (perverting) them while feigning to have a correct understanding of them. It may lead to your destruction. Rather admit that you do not understand them and prayerfully wait upon the Lord to teach you.” (John 8:32). Peter’s exhortation makes it abundantly clear that false teachers often use the context card to either conceal their own feigned understanding of difficult passages or to nip any debate in the bud, especially when they are unable to answer probing questions.

Questions are often the best way to appraise peoples’ understanding of some of the major doctrines in the Bible. As a matter of interest. Jesus Christ often asked questions to either expose the Pharisees’ and Sadducees’ hypocrisies or to teach those who genuinely thirsted after his truth the true meaning of his doctrines. The proper understanding and interpretation of the major doctrines weighed so heavily upon Brother John’s heart that he wrote the following extremely important exhortation.

Anyone who runs on ahead and does not remain in the doctrine of Christ [that is, one who is not content with what He taught], does not have God; but the one who continues to remain in the teaching [of Christ does have God], he has both the Father and the Son. (2 John 9).

To echo his very strong admonishment he also wrote the following,

We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error. (1 John 4:6).

It is suffice to say that a wrong understanding and interpretation of Christ’s doctrines is extremely dangerous. Indeed, it is so dangerous that Paul deemed it necessary to devote a very large portion of his epistles to false prophets and their teachings in an attempt to warn his brethren against their deceptive heresies. Jude also made it clear that deception was on the increase,

Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints. For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ. I will therefore put you in remembrance, though ye once knew this, how that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed them that believed not. (Jude 1:3-5).

The Rapture: The “Ad Hominem” Card or The “Boo-Hoo” Card

Nowadays, you dare not contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints without being accused of ad hominem attacks and an unloving attitude. False teachers love to play their “ad hominem” card whenever their false teachings and heresies are brought into the open. It reminds one of a nest of scorpions hidden under a large rock. As soon as you overturn the rock and expose their nest to the blazing light and heat of the sun, they quickly lift their poisonous tails sky high in an attempt to sting you and hurriedly scurry to the next rock where they can remain hidden to the naked eye.

The ad hominem card also reminds one of the false teachers’ pompous aggrandizement, their self-importance, and high-mindedness. In fact, they are so concerned about their own public image and self-importance that they don’t care a hoot whenever they disparage Jesus Christ and his doctrines in the public arena. To them, that’s just fine but be warned never to contend for the faith in view of exposing their false teachings and heresies because that, that, my dear friends, is unloving and a petulant ad hominem attack that could be likened to the unpardonable sin. Moreover, false teachers are somewhat reluctant to protect their own “lily-white” characters and often use their fellow consorts to do their dirty work for them.

The Rapture: Scott Pruitt and His Team of Fellow Pre-Trib Haters

To illustrate I would like to refer you to an incident which I recently experienced on Scott Pruitt’s site. Before we go there, let me remind you that Scott Pruitt is arguable one of the most knowledgeable experts on the NOPRETRIB doctrine. There is, of course, no such thing as a NOPRETRIB doctrine but Scott has proven him to be so wonderfully at enmity with the Pre-Trib doctrine that he has managed to birth a brand new doctrine which he calls the NOPRETRIB doctrine.

In fact, his animosity has grown so fierce that he unashamedly and regularly refers to the Pre-Trib Rapture as a teaching from the pit of hell. I have warned him on several occasions to refrain from his anti-God and anti-Christ rampage but to no avail. He persistently continues to vilify Jesus Christ and one of his major doctrines in public. Not even the prophet Isaiah managed to encourage him to make an about turn and repent of his callous attacks on the Pre-Trib Rapture

Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter! Woe unto them that are wise in their own eyes, and prudent in their own sight! (Isaiah 5:20-21).

To enlighten our readers a wee bit more, I shall now quote to you word for word a comment Michael Edwards, presumably one of Pruitt’s spiritual associates, wrote on Pruitt’s blog.

“Tom, Scott. Ad hominem attacks against a person or persons, rather than simply discussing ideas, ESPECIALLY when it comes to eschatology, is both fleshly and worldly. I won’t say demonic (though Satan can certainly use Christians) because I am assuming you are both saved. You cannot prove or disprove who the restrainer is. Tom, you should admit that calling the removal of the Holy Spirit a doctrine from the pit is over the top since neither you nor I know who the restrainer is for sure.”

In my reply, I wrote the following comment on Scott Pruitt’s site which, like all the others, were promptly removed. Scott Pruitt seems to think that’s the only way to conduct a debate.

While I was busy writing my first comment I knew that someone was going to accuse me of an ad hominem attack. That’s what they usually do when they fail to refute solid proof from Scripture. You seem to be content when people who call themselves Christians viciously attack and vilify Jesus Christ and some of his major doctrines as being from the pit of hell – IN PUBLIC ‘nogal.’ Yet, as soon as someone contends for the faith and calls someone out for an insipid remark like “from the pit of hell,” you are immediately up in arms.

I proved to you from Scripture that the instances when the Holy Spirit was removed during the Old Testament, pungently allude to Him being the Restrainer in the New Testament who, as in times of the Old Testament, will once again be removed as a means of intense judgment. In fact, it occurred on several occasions (Genesis 6:3 and 1 Samuel 16:14). Yet you persist in your “ad hominem attacks” against Jesus Christ?

As for your suggestion that the angel Michael may possibly be the Restrainer, I must add that such a notion is just as insipid as dubbing the Pre-Trib Rapture as something “from the pit of hell.” Daniel 12:1 explicitly says that Michael will stand for the nation of Israel DURING THE TRIBULATION at which time the restraining office of the Restrainer will already have been taken out of the way.

In fact, the entire gamut of the seven-year tribulation will be a time of no restraining. You cannot have a restraining prior to the seven-year tribulation and then again during the Tribulation. The main object of the restraining is to prevent the devil from bringing his Antichrist into the open and to empower him to do his damnedest. At any rate, the idea that Michael may be the Restrainer sounds a lot like the infamous doctrine that Michael and Jesus are one and the same person. Heresy? You bet!

In conclusion. Would you rather have me say to Scott Pruitt “Get thee behind me Satan?” Perhaps not, because that too would be seen as an “ad hominem attack.” Stop boo-hooing when someone tries to correct you.

The Rapture: Scott Pruitt, the Clandestine email Contender for the Faith

Scott Pruitt was more interested in having a clandestine discussion with me via his emails rather than in an open debate on his site, NOPRETRIB. He never once responded to my comments on his blog, probably to prevent others from reading them and being influenced in a positive way. Needless to say, this is one of the false teacher’s most devious tactics to prevent the eyes of those whom they have already led astray to be opened and consequently abandon them and their false teachings.

No wonder Paul said, “Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them.” (Acts 20:30). They hate it when the poor souls they have drawn away to follow after them are finally enlightened by the truth, and their grievous deceptions are exposed.

In one of his emails he wrote,


I have no interest in debating you. I will not approve your comments on my site for reasons I have already pointed out to you in times past. To that list of reasons, I will add, responding to your comments feeds your sense of self-importance. I’ll pray for you but I will not give you a platform.

Oh, so now suddenly the command to earnestly contend for the faith once delivered to the saints (Jude 1:3) has become a flowery blossomed vehicle to boost your self-importance? Really? He went on to say,


This is not about doctrine, it is about you, evidenced by the fact that in your last email, you refer to yourself 10 times in only 5 sentences. Go ahead and write your article. Just like your past ones, it is sure to be long on ad-hominem attacks and short on Biblical exegesis. Your reference to Matthew 17:9 is a glaring example. You cite a reference, fail to explain its meaning or context, and then make an unsubstantiated accusation associated with it. This is yet another reason why I don’t want to debate you or give you a platform, it is because you are unreasonable and argumentative for the sake of being contentious. Your arguments are unconvincing and merely take up space.

“Once again we are witnessing the method of interpretation called eisegesis as opposed to exegesis, and an example of ignoring context. First let’s look at the context of Revelation 2-3. It is a message directly from Jesus to the churches. Some would argue that these messages were only for the actual geographical churches that existed at the time of the writing and others say that it represents the churches that will exist at the end of the age. More likely it is both, but regardless, if the church of Philadelphia escapes the tribulation by being raptured, then what happens to Church in Smyrna? They are told to just tough it out through the tribulation. To say that Revelation 3:10 is teaching a pre-tribulation rapture ignores the context of the message to the rest of the churches.

Secondly, a closer examination of the original language makes the passage more clear. The phrase “keep you from” in the Greek language consists of two words, tereo and ek. The word tereo means “watch over protectively, guard”, and “ek” is a proposition that infers, “out of something that it is already in.” If the meaning was intended to convey that the church would be removed before entering the tribulation the preposition apo would have been used instead of ek.”

Scott Pruitt’s remark “This is not about doctrine, it is about you, . . .” sounds so much like Rick Warren’s infamous maxim, “It’s not about you.” In fact, both of them make light of the importance of doctrine. Since when does the self-importance of an individual lead others astray? Every single biblical apostle or prophet consistently warned saints against false doctrine and never against anyone else with an alleged egotistical self-importance. In fact, if they had they would have been guilty of an ad hominem attack.

I replied,

You charge the Pre-Tribbers with a faulty exegesis causing them to rather apply an eisegesis, whilst you are actually the one guilty of this particular sin. If the word “apo” were to be used instead of “ek” to convey a complete removal or transportation from one place to another, then surely “apo” should have been used instead of “ek” in Matthew 17:9.

Lo and behold the word “ek”  is used with the word “nekros” to tell us that Jesus rose from among the dead, which means that the other dead remained behind whilst He was raised from the dead, completely and entirely out of the sphere of the dead. Or perhaps He too was protected or guarded whilst remaining within the sphere of the dead? That’s just too preposterous to even contemplate. That would be a denial of his resurrection, no so?

And by the way, Jesus has ONE church (Matthew 16:18) and not one in Smyrna that will have to tough it out through the tribulation and one in Philadelphia who won’t need to tough it out. Like, today there were true and false believers in those churches. Philadelphia is a metaphor of all the true believers who remained faithful to Jesus Christ and his doctrines. (2 John 9). And please don’t remove my comment. Answer me like a true scholar.

I wouldn’t speak of ad hominem attacks if I were you when you so blatantly attack me by making those unsubstantial accusations. Referring to myself 10 times in only 5 sentences hardly nullifies the fact that you are misrepresenting – and yes viciously attacking – Jesus Christ and one of his major doctrines in public.

As I said earlier, you are playing with fire (Isaiah 5:20). Stop your vicious attacks against Jesus Christ. You take the liberty to vilify Him in public but whenever someone gives you a little tap on the wrist you start crying like a little baby. Be a man and answer questions from Scripture without making the silly remark about faulty exegesis or context.

The context card is one of the oldest and most laughable. People like you use them whenever they are driven into a corner and fail dismally to answer simple questions. The context of Matthew 17:9 is so clear that even a child can understand it. OK wise guy, what is the mysterious context of Matthew 17:9? Surely you should be heralding its context with gusto on the Internet knowing that it is one of the most magnanimous things that ever happened in the history of mankind. However, make sure that you interpret “ek nekros” correctly and not in the way you interpret “terei ek” in Revelation 3:10. You are deliberately misleading people and will have to give an account to God one day for your malicious context shenanigans.

Since when is contending for the faith being argumentative? Would you have accused Paul of Tarsus for being argumentative when he says, “But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.” (Gal 1:8). And by the way, Paul uses “I” four times in just one sentence which is vastly more than my 10 times in five sentences. “To the weak became I as weak, that I might gain the weak: I am made all things to all men, that I might, by all means, save some.” (1Corintians 9:22). Does that make him a narcissistic self-serving pig head? I can give you many more examples but doubt whether it would convince you of your childishness. I will certainly write my article to warn people against your false gospel which is leading many to destruction.

The Rapture: The Preposition Controversy: “Apo Tereo” or “Ek Tereo?”

As you may have noticed, Scott Pruitt deliberately wrenched one of the most prominent passages in Scripture that substantiates a Pre-Trip Rapture with so much clarity, out of context by implying that the word “apo” instead of “ek” would have been used if the Pre-Trib Rapture doctrine was true. Let’s go to the passage.

Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth. (Revelation 3:10).

To begin with, the believers who had been and are being saved in this dispensation, beginning with the outpouring of the Spirit at Pentecost and right up to the Rapture prior to the seven-year tribulation, are never referred to as “them that dwell on the earth.” The word κατοικέω (katoikeō) means to house or dwell permanently, in other words, to inhabit the earth eternally. Jesus promised his Bride to prepare an eternal abode for her in heaven, and not on earth. (John 14:1-4). It follows that it cannot possibly refer to Christ’s Bride. Who then are the “them that dwell on the earth” who are going to be tried on earth and for what particular reason and purpose?

To answer this question satisfactorily we need to go back in Israel’s history as God the Father’s peculiar people whom He says is his wife (Ezekiel 16:1-63). Perhaps it would be a good thing to start with the disciple’s question in Acts 1:6, “Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?” Pay attention to the words “again” and “to Israel” which implies that there was a time in Israel’s history when God set up a kingdom on earth that prefigured his ultimate eternal Kingdom on earth. The prefigured kingdom had to resemble the final and eternal one on earth in all aspects. It had to include all twelve tribes of Israel and it had to have a king who ruled Israel from his throne in Jerusalem. Was there such a time in Israel’s history?

When Israel demanded to be ruled by a king like all the nations, Samuel was sorely displeased but God urged him to grant their wish for they did not reject him but God himself. (1 Samuel 8:1-9). God often gave his people what they wanted as a form of judgment, especially when they wanted it immediately and refused to wait until He gave it to them in his own timing. A dynastic kingdom was promised to Israel in Genesis 49:10 and Numbers 24:17 as part of His Messianic, redemptive plan.

Saul was a valiant king in the beginning of his reign and gained many military victories over their Ammonite and Philistine enemies to the extent that the Kingdom was renewed at Gilgal despite the division into the Northern and Southern Kingdoms in 931 BC. Sadly King Saul fell into disrepute with God when he disobeyed His sacrificial law regarding the burnt offering which only an anointed priest was divinely ordained and allowed to offer.

And Samuel said to Saul, Thou hast done foolishly: thou hast not kept the commandment of the LORD thy God, which he commanded thee: for now would the LORD have established thy kingdom upon Israel for ever. But now thy kingdom shall not continue: the LORD hath sought him a man after his own heart, and the LORD hath commanded him to be captain over his people, because thou hast not kept that which the LORD commanded thee. (1 Samuel 13:13-14).

The man after God’s own heart was, of course, David of the tribe of Judah, which is also the tribe of Jesus. Several aspects of David’s life resembles that of his descendant, Jesus Christ. David was anointed king of Israel long before he ascended and established his throne in Jerusalem. Jesus Christ (the anointed King of kings) is now waiting in heaven at the right hand of his Father until He returns at his Second Advent (not the Rapture) to establish his Kingdom on earth to Israel, and to ascend the throne of his father David in Jerusalem. (Luke 1:30-32). David became king of Israel only when the divided Southern and Northern Kingdoms became one united kingdom and asked him to be their king.

Then came all the tribes of Israel to David unto Hebron, and spake, saying, Behold, we are thy bone and thy flesh. Also in time past, when Saul was king over us, thou wast he that leddest out and broughtest in Israel: and the LORD said to thee, Thou shalt feed my people Israel, and thou shalt be a captain over Israel. So all the elders of Israel came to the king to Hebron; and king David made a league with them in Hebron before the LORD: and they anointed David king over Israel. David was thirty years old when he began to reign, and he reigned forty years. In Hebron he reigned over Judah seven years and six months: and in Jerusalem he reigned thirty and three years over all Israel and Judah. (2 Samuel 5:1-5).

All the tribes of Israel will acknowledge Jesus as their Messiah as members of his bone and his flesh (Matthew 4:22) only after they had gone through the trials and the tribulations of the seven-year tribulation with the sole purpose of preparing them for His return to the earth together with his Bride (Jude 1:14), and to rescue the remnant of Israel from the clutches of Antichrist. Hence the unique designation “Jacob’s trouble” (Jeremiah 30:7) and not “the Bride’s trouble” or “the Bride’s tribulation,” or “the Bride’s persecution.”

And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, (2 Thessalonians 2:6-9).

Please note the sequence of events:

  1. First He who restrains the mystery of iniquity that is already active in the world, is taken out of the way.
  2. Then shall that Wicked (man of sin; Antichrist) be revealed,
  3. Whom the Lord shall destroy with the brightness of his Second Coming to set up his eternal Kingdom on earth for Israel.

The disciples question ““Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?” shows that they were well-acquainted with God’s promises in the Old Testament to restore the Kingdom that once flourished under the rule of King David when he united the twelve tribes as one to Israel (to them who shall be housed and reside permanently on the earth). For those who doubt that “them who dwell on the earth” does not refer to all the nations without distinction but peculiarly only to Israel (reunited twelve tribes), Revelation 14:6 will convince them that there will indeed be a distinction between “them that dwell on the earth” and all the other saved individuals from every nation when Jesus returns to restore the Kingdom to Israel. (Ezekiel 37:15-28).

At the moment Israel’s eyes are still darkened for the sake of the salvation of the Gentiles.

(According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear;) unto this day. And David saith, Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, and a stumbling block, and a recompense unto them: Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back alway. I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy. Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fullness? (Romans 11:8-12).

Their darkened eyes will be enlightened again as soon as the Bride of Christ, consisting mainly of Gentile Christians, is taken out of the way at the Rapture prior to the seven-year tribulation (Jacob’s Trouble), so that God may once again deal directly with Israel, whereupon a small remnant from every one of the twelve tribes will be saved. Context and exegesis, as I said earlier, are vitally important to understand some of the more difficult passages in Scripture. In some cases, the context of a passage must be gleaned from other similar passages that deal with the same topic. As such, it may be more difficult and time-consuming to eventually reach a correct understanding. In other cases, the context may be so obvious in a single passage that there is no need to look any further than the passage at hand.

When I refuted Scott Pruitt’s explanation of the use of “tereo ek” instead of “tereo apo” in Revelation 3:10 by referring him to Matthew 17:9 where the word “ek” is used together with “nekros” indicating that Jesus’ resurrection was a complete “exit” from without the realm of the dead, whilst the other dead remained behind, he wrote the following silly comment,


This is not about doctrine, it is about you, evidenced by the fact that in your last email, you refer to yourself 10 times in only 5 sentences. Go ahead and write your article. Just like your past ones, it is sure to be long on ad-hominem attacks and short on Biblical exegesis. Your reference to Matthew 17:9 is a glaring example. You cite a reference, fail to explain its meaning or context, and then make an unsubstantiated accusation associated with it. This is yet another reason why I don’t want to debate you or give you a platform, it is because you are unreasonable and argumentative for the sake of being contentious. Your arguments are unconvincing and merely take up space.

What is more needed to explain the meaning and context of Matthew 17:9 when it is so glaringly self-explanatory and so easy to understand that even a child can see that the context is the resurrection of Jesus Christ? It is the manner of his resurrection that needs to be contextualized a bit more by referring to other passages in Scripture. If, as Scott Pruitt contends, “If the meaning was intended to convey that the church would be removed before entering the tribulation the preposition ‘apo’ would have been used instead of ‘ek,’” we have the liberty to contend that “If the meaning was intended to convey that Jesus Christ would be removed from among the dead completely whilst the other dead remained behind, the preposition “apo” would have been used instead of ek.” You cannot make “ek” to mean a certain thing in a passage and have it altered to mean something totally different in another passage, especially when it is a preposition. Such an inconsistency would label the Holy Spirit who inspired the authors of Scripture a liar and a cheat who cannot be trusted.

Our word “exit” consists of “ex” and “it” which simply means “he or she goes out.” While the “it” can either be a “he” or a “she,” or “it” the “ex” will always remain the same in its etymological meaning, no matter how it is used in sentences. The exit from a theatre or a mall, or whatever, will always convey the same meaning, and that is to remove yourself from the environment you occupied to a completely different environment, completely outside and removed from the original environment.

The preposition “apo” which Scott Pruitt suggests should have been used instead of “ek” to convey the meaning of a complete removal, in the sense that you are no longer part of a particular environment but a completely different environment, cannot possibly be exchanged for “ek” in Revelation 3:10. Here’s the reason: The preposition “apo” simply means to be “away from, separate, apart from, and free from” something. Therefore, you may be away from, separate from, apart from or free from something whilst still actively present within a particular environment. Christians are in the world but not of the world and should therefore “lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls.” (James 1:21). The word for “lay apart” is ἀποτίθημι (apotithēmi). Pay attention, Mr. Scott Pruitt, it has the preposition “apo” and not “ek,” if you please.

Had it been true that “apo” rather than “ek” should have been used in Revelation 3:10, simply because “ek” allegedly does not convey a complete removal out of a particular environment and “apo” actually does, it completely debunks the No-Pretribbers view of persecution. As we know, one of the main reasons for their rejection of a Pre-Trib Rapture is that the saints have always been exposed to the severest persecutions imaginable in the past, which prods them to argue, “why not now?” If Christians have always been subjected to the most severe persecutions, why would they be exempted from the persecution during the tribulation which is going to be vastly greater in its severity than any others in the past? What makes them so special to escape persecution when God has consistently promised that they would endure affliction and persecution in this world?  (Hebrews 11:37-40).

However their assumption that “ek tereo” conveys a separation and protection from persecution within an environment where the persecution, affliction, death and mayhem reign, the burden of proof is on them to convince us that God’s promise in Revelation 3:10, “Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, . . .” fits in with and compliments their view of persecution. How do you marry the notion that the saints are going to suffer the most horrific persecution and affliction during the tribulation with God’s promise that He is going to keep them (tereo ek) from the hour of temptation? Surely, there is a vast contradiction in terms in these two statements.

Moreover, why is it necessary to prepare the saints for their alleged persecution and suffering (aka the Corrie ten Boom style which the No-Pretribbers love to emulate in their attempt to substantiate a No-Pretrib Rapture) during the tribulation when God supposedly promised to keep them from (ek tereo) persecution in allegedly the same way he protected and guarded Israel in the land of Goshen? The irony is that Israel never suffered the slightest affliction in Egypt while God poured out his wrath on the Egyptians, making it absurd to use the Goshen episode as an example of “ek tereo” in Revelation 3:10, that is, of course, if “ek tereo” describes a protection (kept from the hour of temptation) within a particular situation without being removed entirely out of that situation or circumstance.

An astonishing phenomenon is presently taking place in the church. I ‘m reluctant to call it an apostasy from the faith in the soteriological sense of the word, although this is also happening in the church today. I would rather call it an apostasy from the Blessed Hope (Titus 2:13) which refers to the Pre-Trib Rapture, also alluded to by Christ in John 14:1-3. The nearer we come to the Rapture, the lesser most Christians will believe Jesus’s teaching on the Pre-Trib Rapture through the apostle Paul, and are instead listening to Christians who unashamedly call the Pre-Trib Rapture a doctrine from the pit of hell or “rubbish.”

The Rapture: One Church, One Bride, One Body

The raptureFalse prophets love to parrot (pun intended) one another and say the same things over and over again. If the church needs to endure the seven-year tribulation or at least a part of it in order to purify her, then surely the church as a whole will need to go through the fiery furnaces of the tribulation simply because the church is an indivisible unity (one body; one Bride; Ephesians 4:4). If it were true that God purposed the seven-year tribulation to be the final zenith of all purification methods for the church, then surely the entire one body (Bride of Christ) ought to be purified in the Tribulation. What about all the departed saints who had never experienced persecution during their entire lifetime the way Antichrist is going to unleash it during the seven-year tribulation? Are they not purified, and if not how does their impurity affect their relationship with the Bridegroom?

A so-called modern-day prophet of God Sadhu Selvaraj who has allegedly predicted many events that have since come true calls the Pre-Trib Rapture “rubbish” which puts him squarely in the fold of another Pre-Trib-hater who calls it a doctrine from the pit of hell. The only difference is that this false prophet has a wee bit more manners. “Rubbish” doesn’t sound as bad as “from the pit of hell.” He starts off by telling his audience,

You are not going to escape the persecution.

So, get ready.

It is coming.

The church will go through the persecution of fire, because that fire will purify the church.

It will purify the believers.

From whence does this false prophet get the notion that the fires of persecution which is going to be fuelled by a bunch of impure entities, viz. the Antichrist and his cohorts, will be so pure itself to purify the church? Fire cannot purify any form of impurity, let alone the spiritual dimension of man. It is impossible for impure beings to create something pure, albeit a purifying fire. In Hinduism, from whence Sadhu Selvaraj converted to Christianity, purification by fire is an everyday occurrence. Like many sheep who have not been purged of the blood-sucking ticks they picked up in their pagan religions from which they escaped, he too is still saturated with these ticks. Listen to what a site says about fire purification in Hinduism.

The Ancient Practice of Fire Ceremonies

Take some time to be with fire in a sacred way. Let it enchant you, purify you, and empower you as it has done for countless others throughout the centuries.

Fire can heat your food or burn down your house. It is a force of destruction, creation and purification. We can be engulfed in flames or on fire with inspiration. The raw power of fire was recognized by the ancients who infused this element with prayer, intention, and reverence. Today it still carries much value in our lives and can be used in positive ways to enrich our connection with the divine.

Fire can be used to enhance your spiritual practice or support you by helping you purify and set intentions in your own life. Many personal fire rituals are based on the ancient ceremonies handed down through the ages, in all cultures. Here are a few fire ceremonies from around the world.

Fire has been used in ceremonies around the world for countless centuries.

Yajna Ceremony

Yajna, the Hindu fire ceremony literally translates to mean “sacrifice, devotion, worship, offering”. It basically refers to any ritual done in front of a sacred fire, often accompanied by songs or mantras. This is an ancient practice developed to help us heal from trauma, and disconnection with the spiritual realm.

The divine masculine (Kukai) and the divine feminine (Amaterasu) are said to come into balance through the Yajna ceremony. The ritual is designed to help us clear any obstacles so that we may attain a more perfect harmony with ourselves and the spiritual realm.

Fire allows for rapid transformation. It provides the avenue to let go of the old story and drama, to transform, to renew and to be reborn. – Dr. Alberto Villoldo

Yajna is a sacred Hindu fire ceremony to connect to the spiritual realm.

Sacrifice and Surrender

Yajña, sacrifice, is an act by which you surrender something for the sake of the gods.

Such an act must rest on a sacred authority (āgama), and serve for man’s salvation (śreyortha). The nature of the gift is of less importance. It may be cake (puroḍāśa), pulse (karu), mixed milk (sāṃnāyya), an animal (paśu), the juice of soma-plant (soma), etc; nay, the smallest offerings of butter, flour, and milk may serve for the purpose of a sacrifice. – Apastamba Yajna Paribhasa-sutras 1.1, Translated by M Dhavamony

The energetic vibrations that are invoked during a traditional Vedic fire ceremony are said to represent the most powerful presence of the Divine on Earth. The upward motion of fire is said to be similar to the divine kundalini energy. It is believed to be a powerful purifying element, especially for any type of negative karma you may have gathered from non-virtuous behavior.

Some may probably want to quote 1 Peter 4:12 to prove that fiery trials are common occurrences among believers and, therefore, they will need to go through the tribulation period. Look again, dear friends, and you will see that brother Peter does not say that the burning fires are necessary to purify them of impurities (whatever that may be)  but merely test their allegiance, and loyalty to Christ Jesus.

Our wonderfully informed false prophet said the following anti-biblical garbage whilst his audience nodded their heads in agreement with his lies.

You know, you are a very smart people, aren’t you? NO? Why do you give me a stare, then? Are you smart people (audience answers, “yes”). OK! I’ll give you a simple math, OK, a simple math, not very difficult. Now, you just listen to me very carefully and you will see logical reasoning now. If all the good people, good Christians, those who are walking with the Lord, all are raptured, all gone, and only the nominal Christians and all the evil ones are left behind, OK. Why force them to take the mark of the beast . . . because they are all prepared to take the mark of the beast?

I don’t know about you but I am not prepared to listen (like the women in the audience) to this guy’s logical reasoning and simple maths because he is way off track. How do I know? Well, let’s read what God says in his Word.

And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. (Revelation20:4).

This wonderfully informed false prophet’s problem is that he listened to a person who changed himself into an angel of light and said he was Jesus Christ instead of just reading the Word of God. To corroborate his false teaching he said that the “Jesus” who appeared to him told him to open the Bible at Matthew 24:8. Had he been more careful he would have rather started reading at Matthew 24: 23 and 24.

And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world? And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you. For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many. (Matthew 24:3-5).

The very thing the genuine Jesus of the Bible warned him against, was the very thing he did – to listen to another Jesus and hence be deceived, so much so that verse 11 may be applied to him, “And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many. “

The idea that the church (singular) must go through the fires of the tribulation to purify her is wholly unbiblical and horribly deceptive. Whenever they speak of the church of Jesus Christ having to go through the tribulation, the one church which Christ Jesus promised He would build and the gates of hell shall not prevail against her (Matthew 16:18), they must of necessity refer only to the living members of the church who, according to their thinking, must endure the fires of the seven-year tribulation in order to be purified. Does the church or Bride of Christ, to be more precise, consist merely of living saints, or does she also include the departed saints?

The church is one body (Ephesians 4:4-5) which means that the departed saints will also have to enter into the seven-year tribulation to somehow undergo purification by fire like the living saints. The living saints cannot possibly be called a church (one body; one Bride) without the departed saints, and therefore cannot possibly go through the tribulation without the departed saints. To be consistent in their view, the No-Pretribbers should not argue that the CHURCH (Bride of Christ as a single body) will have to endure the wrath of Antichrist in order to be purified. They should at least make it clear that only a portion of the Body of Christ, that is the living saints at that time, will go through the tribulation. This again begs the question: If the fiery furnace of the tribulation which Jesus said would be so unique in its nature that it never occurred in the past and never again will occur in the future (Matthew 24:21), especially for the purification of the church (Bride of Christ as a single body), then surely Jesus would never be so unjust as to just have a portion of the church (the living saints at the time) to be purified of her alleged impurities.

This alone proves how preposterous the idea is of the church (entire Body of Christ; the Bride) having to go through the seven-year tribulation to be purified. How will incorporeal beings be purified by fire? In fact, departed saints are already completely purified because they have already discarded the instrument or carrier, if you will, of sin which is the human body. The Pre-Tribulation Rapture is the only viable option that vindicates the church of Jesus Christ as one single united body without having to divide her into two separate sections, a living and a deceased, to accommodate a time of persecution for only a portion, presumably to perfect or purify the living section before Christ’s return.

If the fiery furnaces of persecution, especially during the Tribulation, are supposed to be the mechanism to purify the church, why do some of them never experience persecution in the form of martyrdom, beheading, brutal lashing and the likes? There are millions, if not billions, of Christians who had never and never will be imperiled by the kind of persecution akin to that of the Great Tribulation. Were they never purified? In fact, the notion that the church as one body (Bride of Christ) needs to be purified before she can meet her Bridegroom is a mockery of the blood of Jesus Christ. Purification of the church (Body of Christ, Bride of Christ) has and never will be accomplished by any fiery furnaces of persecution. It reeks of the Roman Catholic’s infamous doctrine of Purgatory. Indeed, the only method of purification Jesus Himself instituted is the washing of feet (the forgiveness of sins)

Then cometh he to Simon Peter: and Peter saith unto him, Lord, dost thou wash my feet? Jesus answered and said unto him, What I do thou knowest not now; but thou shalt know hereafter. Peter saith unto him, Thou shalt never wash my feet. Jesus answered him, If I wash thee not, thou hast no part with me. Simon Peter saith unto him, Lord, not my feet only, but also my hands and my head. Jesus saith to him, He that is washed needeth not save to wash his feet, but is clean every whit: and ye are clean, but not all. (John 13:6-10; Hebrews 10:19-22).

The word for “clean “in the above passage is καθαρός (katharos) and means to be completely pure of impurities. If persecution were intended to be the method of purification, especially in the manner the Antichrist is going to pursue his enemies during the tribulation, then every single member of the one body (church), living and dead, must of necessity go through the fiery furnaces of persecution and tribulation, lest any of them may be found to be impure. One of the worst things that makes the church impure is false doctrine, and may I add, specifically the No-Pretrib doctrine which Scott Pruitt and his cronies are spreading.

Would to God ye could bear with me a little in my folly: and indeed bear with me. For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ. But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ. For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him. (2 Corinthians 11:1-4)

At the pre-Tribulation Rapture the dead in Christ will rise first to receive their glorified sinless bodies, and the living saints theirs at virtually the same time when they shall be changed in the twinkling of an eye to meet Jesus in the air and to be translated to heaven where the marriage of the Lamb shall be consummated. In the Pre-wrath economy of the Rapture, the living part of the Bride of Christ shall go through the tribulation while the departed section of the Bride shall be waiting in Paradise to be resurrected at the Pre-Wrath Rapture which they believe is going to occur between the sixth and the seventh seal. If the purification of the church (the Bride of Christ as a single body) was such an important doctrine, as the No-Pretribbers like to believe, then surely the entire body (Bride of Christ) should be granted the magnanimous privilege to be purified by the fiery furnaces of the Tribulation under Antichrist. It’s not going to happen no matter how you interpret the Rapture. I sincerely hope the No-Pretrib cronies will learn to understand why their “purification of the church” shenanigans are hopelessly unbiblical, unless, of course, they dare to separate the living and the departed saints and woefully call the living saints the church and the deceased saints something else.

The only instance mentioned in the Bible when the saints will go through some kind of purification is in 1 Corinthians.

Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble; Every man’s work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man’s work of what sort it is. If any man’s work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. If any man’s work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire. (1 Corinthians 3:12-15).

We learn from Scripture that God is a consuming fire. (Hebrews 12:29), and that’s precisely why all the members of the Bride of Christ need new bodies like unto that of Jesus Christ. Our present natural bodies will immediately be consumed if it had been possible to appear in die presence of God in our present bodies.

Our new glorified bodies like unto that of Jesus will be completely free from any kind of impurity. Only the works we had done on earth can either be pure or impure. Impure works are those we will have done in the flesh (John 6:63), or those done in the power of the Holy Spirit (pure). The impure works are built upon wood, hay and stubble (elements that are burnt up completely in fire) and the pure works those built on gold, silver and precious stones. This scene will take place in heaven after the Pre-Tribulation Rapture and prior to the marriage of the Lamb. Mankind, including the Antichrist, are completely powerless to muster any degree of persecution of whatever kind to purify the church. God alone was able to do that when He died and shed his blood on the cross for her. (John 13:6-10). His own persecution at the hands of sinful men achieved the Bride’s purification. The doctrine of purification through the fires of persecution is a Roman Catholic heresy which denies the efficacy of the blood of Christ and the forgiveness of sin unto eternal redemption.

Tom (Discerning the World)

Discerning the World is an internet Discernment ministry based in Johannesburg South Africa that was founded in 2008. Tom Lessing originally founded the website “Waak en Bid/Watch and Pray”. Tom Lessing joined Discerning the World in May 2013 and all his articles were moved across to DTW.

46 Responses

  1. Doppies says:

    Hi Tom,

    Another well written and I believe Spirit guided contention of the faith.
    You, Deborah and this website have been a true blessing to many.

    The way things are going we probably don’t have long to wait for our blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ!!
    Not sure why some people are hell bent on swapping a “blessed hope” for “hoping for tribulation”. Be that as it may not even the most sin filled men would beat up their bride before the marriage. Just the thought of some “brethren” implying our Lord Jesus would do the same to the church (His bride) is pretty disheartening. I find it to be pure blasphemy and is another indicator of the late hour we find ourselves in.

    Even so, come Lord Jesus come!! Yahoo/ Yahoo/ Clap/

  2. Hi Doppies,

    I am so pleased to hear that the article was a blessing to you. Nonetheless, you should still test it in the light of Scripture to see whether everything I had written is indeed the truth.

    And the people of Berea were more open-minded than those in Thessalonica, and they listened eagerly to Paul’s message. They searched the Scriptures day after day to see if Paul and Silas were teaching the truth. (Acts 17:11)

  3. Here is a wonderful thought: The Bride of Christ is the Body of Christ. Jesus Christ comes to remove His Body before the Tribulation which is the ‘wrath of God’ on earth. There is no way that Jesus Christ would put His Body through the Wrath of God again, as He already died on the cross once as the sacrificial Lamb and had God turn away from Him for a time when Jesus took on the sins of the world onto Him when He was on the cross. If the Bride of Christ (His Body) has to go through the Tribulation (The wrath of God) it means that Jesus Christ’s death on the cross was in vein and would in effect be crucified twice.

  4. Hein says:

    I have sent to you at Disceningtheworld information from the Word of God, on my own studies about the rapture and if can be 100% proven as Biblical. This is compiled in a booklet of 58 pages.

    Myself as born again evangelist, pastor, disciple, missionary and witer would like you to read this in detail as study guide. Critical questions will be asked in this book and answered.

    Please study this and tell my why this is not true.

  5. Dear Hein

    We have received your booklet and are reviewing both your website and booklet. We will come back to you as soon as possible. Will send you an email to let you know what we have posted a comment under this article regarding our findings.

    Thank you Smile/

  6. Hi there Hein. Thanks for your comment. I started to read your booklet on the Rapture and noticed that most of the arguments you put forward to refute a Pre-Trib Rapture are actually old hat and do not hold water. For instance, you contend that the word “rapture” does not appear in the Bible. Admittedly that is true, but so also the word “Trinity” is glaringly absent in the Bible. Are you going to reject the doctrine concerning God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit just because of that? Hopefully not because that would put your salvation at risk, not so? The word “rapture” may not appear in the Bible but the word “harpazo” does which means to be “caught up by force.” By the way, do you believe in any kind or sort of rapture? If so, your argument that the word “rapture” does not appear in the Bible will also make your belief in a rapture look silly, no so? By the way, Paul very distinctly says that the members of the Body of Christ (Bride of Christ), whether alive or dead at the time, shall be caught up (“harpazo”) to meet Him in the air. Will you be there or does it scare you just as much as it scares people who belong to a cult? You wrote:

    I have recently watched a documentary regarding certain “Christian” cults, and most of their fears surrounded the great tribulation, and the apocalypse. Most of them killed themselves or were killed, because they wanted to escape the great tribulation or apocalypse, as described in the book of Revelation.

    That doesn’t make sense. You may as well have argued as follows, “Realizing that they are going to be killed by beheading in the tribulation, they decided to kill themselves in order to escape their killing at the hand of the Antichrist.” It’s like saying, “I will rather poison myself to escape poisoning by someone else.” Not good, my friend. Not good at all. Since when do cultists have a say in the evaluation of such a great doctrine as the Rapture?

    I suggest that you rewrite your little booklet. We are not a bunch of ignoramuses. Excuse me for being so blunt, but you are wasting my time.

  7. Daisy says:

    A nimber of times, I have prayed that the Lord would purify His Church. Should I pray differently…perhaps pray He would mature it? It hadn’t occurred to me before reading this article that purification is Biblically different from what we often hear.

  8. Dear Daisy Hi/

    Q.1) When you are born again you become a child of God, you are washed by the blood of Jesus Christ, you are SAVED. Tell me, is that not enough? What more would you like?

    When you are born again the bible says:

    Romans 8:11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.


    G2227 ζωοποιέω zoopoieo (dzo-op-oy-eh’-o) v.
    1. to (re-)vitalize
    {literally or figuratively}
    [from a derivative of G2198 and G4160]
    KJV: make alive, give life, quicken

    Q.2) Why must the body of Christ be purified or made mature? What’s wrong with it?

    We will always sin, we will always be sinful, until we go to meet Jesus and receive our glorified bodies, so what must we be purified of? This teaching is actually Latter Rain ‘manifest sons of God’ teaching. Please see here:

    “Manifest Sons” comes from: the last-days overcomers must manifest total victory over all foes in these bodies without a resurrection, even over death.

    Q.3) What about the bride of Christ of those who have passed on? If they are deceased how can they be purified or made mature in the end times when they died years ago, or yesterday even, and many from natural causes? Are some are going to heaven ‘purified or ‘mature’ and others not. Do the more mature purified ones get a bigger mansion in heaven? Wink/

  9. Daisy says:

    Yes, my salvation is enough for me. I’m aware of the Latter Rain cult and don’t agree with it. I was just looking for advice. :-) The Bible does tell us in 1 John 3:3, “everyone who has this hope in him, purifies himself, even as he is pure.” I think I will read some commentary on that verse for direction for prayer. Take care…

  10. Hi Daisy

    Yip I now you were looking for advice Up/ but I have to ask logical biblical questions to everyone in order to get you and others to think logically which pastor/churches of today don’t want, they don’t want you to think logically – they just want you to believe what they are saying.

      1 John 3:3-4 “3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure. 4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.”

    Sanctification is an ongoing process for every single individual Christian, you will sin, but you ask Jesus Christ for forgiveness, you change your ways with the help of the Holy Spirit… you die to yourself daily – this is for each and every individual Christian.

      2 Corinthians 7:1 “Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.”

      Romans 6:6-7 “6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. 7 For he that is dead is freed from sin”

    (Gal 2:20; Gal 5:24; Gal 6:14; Eph 4:22; Phil 3:10; 1Pet 4:1-2)

    But this teaching that the body of Christ as a whole is going to reach some stage of maturity or perfection is nonsense.

  11. Hein says:

    Keep reading Tom. You would find the truth. Obviously you cannot judge my book if you have not read it.

  12. FAAN says:

    [DELETED by DTW – note: We have allowed you to comment many times before and have attempted to reason with you biblically, but you refuse to listen. From now on you have read only privileges.]

  13. Dear Hein

    Tom and I started to read your book and we found it to be incorrect from the start. 99% of the time when something starts off incorrectly it ends incorrectly – so there is no need for us to read your whole book when we know what the conclusion is. What you write about in your booklet, we have heard before – it’s not new, but it is completely false.

    Tell me, I see you are into Spiritual Mapping based on what I read on your website. You admit on your site that “Spiritual Mapping is quite a newly found Christian “concept““. You are right, it doesn’t even exist in the bible and was concocted by George Otis Jr, who is an Apostle in the New Apostolic Reformation founded by C Peter Wagner (who has now passed on).

    What do you think of Rick Joyner and Angus Buchan?

  14. petro says:

    “a great multitude..of all nations, and kindreds and people and tongues stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes..and one of the elders answered what are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?

    And he said to me .. these are they which came out of the great tribulation

    and have washed their robes .. in the blood of the Lamb.”
    Rev 7:9-15

  15. Dear petro

    (Rev 7:9-15) Great scripture as are all the verses in the Word of God Smile/ The question is, what does it mean? Let me explain:

    “This great multitude embraces the Gentile nations who will enter into millennial blessing. It is the great ingathering of the coming dispensation. From all nations, and kindreds, and peoples, and tongues, a vast throng from all parts of the earth will be redeemed to God by the blood of the Lamb and will enter into the earthly kingdom of our Lord. During the dark days of the great tribulation they will heed the testimony which will be carried to the ends of the earth by Jewish missionaries, the 144,000 sealed by God to preach.”

    Now tell me, what do you believe this passage to mean?

  16. Hein says:

    Hi Deborah, Please explain this then.
    Mat 24:29 IMMEDIATELY AFTER the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
    Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
    Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

    Pre tribulation rapture (PTR) falls flat on its face.

    If PTR was true, why are there a marriage ceremony in heaven, without the second bride members still on earth?
    Rev 7:13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?
    Rev 7:14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which CAME OUT OF great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

    Where do you see a second occurrence written in God’s Word, where children of God are gathered to be unified with Him, receive exalted spiritual bodies, have a marriage ceremony in heaven, to be with Christ forever?

    There are only ONE coming of Christ, ONE gathering of souls, ONE unification with Christ, ONCE receiving exalted spiritual bodies, and ONE marriage celebration in heaven.
    You’re PTR doctrine is not true…

    If your PTR doctrine was sound, how can anyone become a child of God if the Holy Spirit is taken away? Never! But still PTR doctrine indicate that the Holy Spirit is taken away.
    Rev 7:14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which CAME OUT OF great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
    You’re PTR doctrine is not true…

    And so I can carry on and on…

  17. Dear Hein

    Tom will not be online for a few days he has an out of order telephone line. I will reply to your comment in detail. Smile/ Please be patient.

    In the mean time can you please answer:

    Tell me, I see you are into Spiritual Mapping based on what I read on your website. You admit on your site that “Spiritual Mapping is quite a newly found Christian “concept““. You are right, it doesn’t even exist in the bible and was concocted by George Otis Jr, who is an Apostle in the New Apostolic Reformation founded by C Peter Wagner (who has now passed on).”

    Are you part of the NAR or believe what they believe? What do you think of Rick Joyner and Angus Buchan?

  18. Hein says:

    Hi Deborah,
    Please, asking you to stick to the PTR subject.

    Not sure why you want to change the subject by throwing in 3 other subjects that has nothing to do with the PTR doctrine?

    Awaiting your reply

  19. Dear Hein

    No need to get cheeky with me, this is my website I can ask what I like. I am asking you those questions to expose your true beliefs. See my response here to your adoration for Angus Buchan and Roman Catholicism

    I am going to reply to you regarding your false teaching on there being no Pre-Trib Rapture, please be patient. Smile/

  20. Dear Hein


    To understand Pre-Trib Rapture you need to actually understand biblical eschatology from the beginning of the bible right till the end. This is something that you have not done. You have picked out verses to argue them without understanding the full picture.

    Let’s start with question 2)

    You said “If your PTR doctrine was sound, how can anyone become a child of God if the Holy Spirit is taken away? Never! But still PTR doctrine indicate that the Holy Spirit is taken away.”

    I have turned my answer to you into an article. Please read here: Holy Spirit (Restrainer) Taken Out of The Way…

    I will answer your other question tomorrow regarding the “marriage ceremony”. Very easy to answer just have to explain it to you correctly and that takes time.

  21. Mark says:

    [Deleted by DTW]

  22. Hein says:

    Hi Deborah, you can do or say watever you want, its your website. Even if you do not like my comments you can remove me from your website, your decision.

    I have read your PTR reply. BUT – We live in a BRAND NEW covenant, brand new, made possible by Jesus Christ. This covenant was FIRST handed to Israel to accept, to be saved. No excuses!!! Most of them refused, but some took it up, AND WERE SAVED.
    The Old covenant of sacrifices are GONE, God does not want it anymore. Jesus was the NEW sacrifice and this you know.

    Therefore no dual covenant… This then implies that the Holy Spirit HAS to INDWELL you to be saved in the endtimes, to be sealed by God – NO OTHER WAY. And this includes the Israelites, even at endtimes.

    Therefore your PTR doctrine cannot stand THAT THE RESTRAINER is the Holy Spirit…. (wow what blasphemy!!!)

    The Restrainer is satan that would be revealed, and have to be removed, before Jesus returns:
    2Th 2:4 Who OPPOSETH and EXALTETH himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, SHEWING HIMSELF that he is God.
    2Th 2:5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I TOLD you these things?
    2Th 2:6 And NOW YE KNOW what withholdeth that he (satan) might be revealed in his time.

    You can never change God’s NEW covenant, to suddenly fit Israelites at the end times tribulation period alone, by being saved without the Holy Spirit’s INDWELLING, accepting Jesus Christ as Lord and Saviour.

    Therefore your PTR doctrine whereby the restrainer is now suddenly the Holy Spirit is far from the truth:

    Eph 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, YE WERE SEALED with that holy Spirit of promise,

    Rom 8:8 So then they that are in the flesh CANNOT please God.
    Rom 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God DWELL IN YOU. Now if any man have NOT the Spirit of Christ, he is NONE of His.

    God cannot go back in His Word, and you know it.

  23. Dear Hein

    I am not removing your comment, why? It’s so blatantly wrong – it will be a good chuckle for others to read.

    You CLEARLY did not understand my article. We are in a New Covenant and it will remain so.

    Satan is the Restrainer? Good grief, I have to say that’s a first for me, never heard that one before. BRAVO!! I’ve heard a lot of blasphemy in my time but this is incredible – you now fall onto my top 10 list at position 4, the Pope sits in position 1.

    Isaiah 5:20 “Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!

      2 Thessalonians 2:6-7 (KJV) 6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. 7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.

      2 Thessalonians 2:7 (AKJV)
      7 For the mystery of iniquity does already work: only he who now lets will let, until he be taken out of the way.

    The above verse is speaking about TWO separate powers. One ‘Power’ (He) is holding another ‘power’ (mystery of iniquity) back.

    The “he who now letteth”…”will let”, The Retainer is Someone of great power who is hindering the advance of the Antichrist and preventing Satan and his Satanic kingdom from overtaking the world.

    If the Restrainer was Satan you would use proper Hermeneutics which is the way of interpreting the Bible correctly to determine if it was so, and and the Bible would refer to him as the son of perdition or the man, lawlessess, mystery of iniquity or the antichrist, etc…

    You are a New Apostolic Refomrationist and into Spiritual Mapping and what-not. You deny that God is omnipresent by going around performing little rituals claiming houses, areas, towns and cities, etc. for God – pushing out the demons so God can come in and do His work. Shocking to say the least.

    You believe as the Roman Catholic church does and you support their endeavor to set up the ‘Kingdom of God’ on earth before the false Christ returns.

    Actually just come clean with us and tell us what doctrines you actually follow, save me from trying to pry it from you.

  24. Hein says:

    Hi Deborah, you can chuckle as much as you like, discredit and call me anything that you like as well, as you please.

    Please read the whole chapter. It refers to the coming of Jesus. Everything discussed there, refers to the surroundings before Jesus returns to earth.

    The chapter is about the coming of Jesus Christ, and events leading up to it. But first satan will be revealed to us. How? By sitting and claiming to be God, and doing his wicked things.
    Thereafter, when Jesus comes, He will consume satan, and destroy his works.
    2Th 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
    (Wicked should be small capital wicked), meaning all wickedness and unrighteousness.

    So we agree to disagree.

    1. You never told me how can a person be saved when the Holy Spirit is taken away from the earth, according to PTR doctrine?

    2 And if you refer to “falling away” as the bride raptured PTR doctrine, how do you describe the original Hebrew Greek interpretation?
    FALLING AWAY – apostasia
    Feminine of the same as G647; defection from truth (properly the state), (“apostasy”): – falling away, forsake.

  25. Hein says:

    And if you dont mind, if readers would like to visit my website, please reveal it to them, for them to distinguish for themselves who speaks the truth or not.
    [removed url]

    [Edited by DTW: Nope sorry.]

  26. Hein says:

    [DELETED by DTW – note: Sorry Hein, I can’t keep answering FALSE QUESTIONS that are NOT based on actual biblical Pre-Trib doctrine – Your booklet is Fake News; false questions based on your FALSE PERCEPTION of Pre-Trib doctrine]

  27. Dear Hein

    You said: 1. You never told me how can a person be saved when the Holy Spirit is taken away from the earth, according to PTR doctrine?”

    That’s a lie, He is NOT taken away from the world.

    You said: 2 And if you refer to “falling away” as the bride raptured PTR doctrine, how do you describe the original Hebrew Greek interpretation?

    That is also a lie, we do not refer to the “falling away” as the raptured Bride of Christ.

    I am sorry Hein, but it’s people like yourself that tell lies, and make up FALSE QUESTIONS to mislead people.

    You said “So we agree to disagree.”

    I will not agree to disagree, the bible says:

      Amos 3:3 “Can two walk together, except they be agreed?”
  28. Hein says:

    Thanks Deborah,


  29. Daisy wrote:

    A nimber of times, I have prayed that the Lord would purify His Church. Should I pray differently…perhaps pray He would mature it? It hadn’t occurred to me before reading this article that purification is Biblically different from what we often hear.

    It depends on what you mean by purifying. Are you referring to purifying by the blood of Christ or of the church in the sense of being purified of professing Christians? The latter won’t happen and for the following reason.

    If there arise among you a prophet, or a dreamer of dreams, and giveth thee a sign or a wonder, And the sign or the wonder come to pass, whereof he spake unto thee, saying, Let us go after other gods, which thou hast not known, and let us serve them; Thou shalt not hearken unto the words of that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams: for the LORD your God proveth you, to know whether ye love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul. (Deu 13:1-3)

    So, God Himself permits false teachers to come among the brethren to test their love for Him. So to pray for this, in particular, is to go against God’s will.

  30. Etienne says:

    Dear Tom & Deborah

  31. Etienne says:

    Nowhere in scripture are we taught that we will be raptured before the 7 year tribulation, in fact there is no 7 year tribulation period. The final week of the 70th Week Prophecy of Daniel does not present a 3 ½ year of tribulation and a 3 ½ of great tribulation in the latter days before Christ’s 2nd coming. The 70 Week Prophecy of Daniel was already fulfilled by the time when Jesus was the final offer when He was crucified. It was Jesus who confirmed the covenant with many and in the midst of the week He made an end to sacrifice. It is impossible to call it a 70 week prophecy if the final week of the total 70 weeks occurs 2000 years later than the 69th week, this will make it false. Don’t you think? The whole purpose of the Pre-Tribulation Rapture doctrine is to blind the children of God to not see who the Antichrist & False Prophet are.
    The great tribulation in Matt 24 occurred in 67AD – 70AD when the temple and Jerusalem were destroyed by the Roman Army. Jesus said it would be a tribulation such as was not since the beginning of the world nor ever shall be. The tribulation was so intensive that of all the bodies which led to pestilence and great famine started to kill people. It was also reported that a husband killed his family as food for himself. Husbands and fathers killed their own families and then committed suicide out of fear for the famine and pestilence, bodies were seen all over the city walls and trees.

  32. Etienne says:

    The 1260 days of John was a totally different tribulation period than the great tribulation of which Jesus spoke of. The 1260 prophetic days was for a 1260 years, from 538AD – 1798AD when the Popes of Rome were head of all churches.
    Daniel 9:27 “And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week:” This verse talks of Jesus and not the End Times Antichrist. God already made the covenant, therefor the verse states that it would be CONFIRMED.
    It is the everlasting covenant, the same one that Abraham was saved by, as he believed by faith that the Father would provide a Lamb to atone for his sins. (Genesis 22:7-8)
    John 1:29 “The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world”
    Messiah and His Disciples fulfilled the 70th week of Daniel, from 27-34 A.D., when they confirmed with the Jews for 7 years that He is the promised Messiah, who ratified the everlasting covenant with His blood as the Passover Lamb.
    After Messiah’s ascension, the Apostles continued to confirm to the Jews that He is the promised Messiah, by proclaiming how He fulfilled prophecy and how He rose again.
    The seven years ended when the Jewish leaders stoned the Apostle Stephen to death, when he proclaimed that they had killed their promised Messiah.

    2 Thessalonians 2:7 “For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.”
    Up to the beginning of the 4th century, Rome was a pagan city, and the Emperor was the high priest, called the Pontifex Maximus, of its religion. As long as the Roman Emperor was in power, the Papal Pontifex Maximus could not take power. The last Roman Emperor was removed in 476 A.D. Shortly thereafter, in 538 A.D., the Roman Catholic Church gained religious and civil power when Eastern Emperor Justinian issued a decree making the Pope head of ALL CHURCHES. The sea beast (Antichrist) controlled the world from 538AD – 1798AD (1260 years – 1260 days of John in Revelation) and killed over 50 million saints during their reign for the saints did not bow down to their authority. It was also during this period when the 2 witnesses (God’s Word & Church) witnessed against the Papacy by proclaiming that salvation is only through Jesus by faith and not by works as the RCC believe. In 1514 the Papal Church pronounced that the Word of God and Church are dead. And there was silence for 3 ½ years (3 ½ prophetic days), when nobody testified against the Papal Church, which caused them to celebrate with feasts.
    During this time the Lord had a Catholic Monk named Martin Luther read the Scriptures, to see who was the true church and the false church.
    And exactly 3 ½ years after the Papal Church had proclaimed that the Two Witnesses were dead, Martin Luther posted his 95 Theses, which sparked the Protestant Reformation, and led to millions of people coming out of the false Papal Church, to be saved by the pure Gospel of Christ. With the advent of the printing press, many Bibles were printed, and the Two Witnesses were alive again.
    The followers of Christ then used the rod of iron, the Word of God, to take back control of the nations, such as England, which had been held by the Papal Church.

  33. Etienne says:

    Satan countered in 1545 A.D., by empowering the Jesuits at the Council of Trent, to create a counter-reformation plan.
    The Jesuits are the covert military arm of the Papal Church, and their role was to do whatever was necessary to:
    Bring the Protestants back under the power of the Papal Church. Look around today and you’ll see that they’ve been very successful, as many churches now partner with the Papacy in the name of unity and peace.
    The beast received its deadly head wound in 1798 when Napoleon’s army (Jesuits) took the pope captive where he later died. Since then the Jesuits (False Prophet – Earth beast) started to gain control of the world through the Roman Catholic Church. Pope Francis whom is also the first Jesuit who is elected as the Pope of Rome is the image of the beast (Revelation 13).
    Both Paul and John gave us descriptions of the antichrist and false prophet in order for us to identify them:
    2 Thessalonians 2:4 “Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped, so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
    Shortly after the last Roman Emperor was removed in 476 A.D., the Son of Perdition, the Popes of Rome, rose to power in 538 A.D. They sit among the followers of Messiah, which is the temple of God, and they proclaimed to be God.
    Revelation 17:4 “ And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet colour, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication” – this identifies the Roman Catholics
    Please also see what the Popes throughout history declared who they are:
    Pope Boniface VIII said “We declare, assert, define and pronounce to be subject to the Roman Pontiff is to every creature altogether necessary for salvation… I have the authority of the King of Kings. I am all in all, and above all, so that God Himself and I, the Vicar of Christ, have but one consistory, and I am able to do almost all that God can do. What therefore, can you make of me but God?”
    Pope Pius IX said, “I alone… am the successor of the apostles, the vicar of Jesus Christ. I am the way, the truth, and the life…”
    Pope Pius X declared, “The Pope is not simply the representative of Jesus Christ. On the contrary, he is Jesus Christ Himself, under the veil of the flesh. Does the Pope speak? It is Jesus Christ who is speaking, hence, when anyone speaks of the Pope, it is not necessary to examine but to obey.”
    Pope Pius XII said, “…recognize the Holy, Catholic, Roman Church to be the only true Church of Jesus Christ, outside of which neither sanctity nor salvation can be found. Call them to the unity of the one fold, granting them the grace to believe every truth of our holy faith and to submit themselves to the Supreme Roman Pontiff, the Vicar of Jesus Christ on earth.”
    The power of the Roman Catholic Church reached a pinnacle in the 12th through 15th centuries, as they attained: independent sovereignty, absolute supremacy over the Christian Church, and full control of the princes of Europe.
    Pope Innocent III (1198-1216) said “We may according to the fullness of our power, dispose of the law and dispense above the law. Those whom the Pope of Rome doth separate, it is not a man that separates them but God. For the Pope holdeth place on earth, not simply of a man but of the true God.” (Source: “Decretals of Greogory IX,” Book 1, chapter 3.)
    He was the “most powerful of all the Popes.” He claimed to be “Vicar of Christ,” “Vicar of God,” and “Supreme Sovereign over the Church and the World.” He claimed the right to depose Kings and Princes; and that “All things on earth and in Heaven and in Hell — are subject to the Vicar of Christ.”
    He brought the Church into supreme control of the State. The Kings of Germany, France, England, and practically all the Monarchs of Europe, obeyed his will. He even brought the Byzantine Empire under his control. Never in history has any one man exerted more power!
    Pope’s also started to condemn Bible-believing followers of Christ, who taught salvation through Christ alone, as heretics.
    Pope Innocent III decreed, “We prohibit laymen possessing copies of the Old and New Testament. …We forbid them most severely to have the above books in the popular vernacular.” (meaning in their country’s native language, as the Papal Church only allowed their priests to read it in Latin). (Source: The Council of Toulouse, Canon 14)
    Pope Innocent III said, “Anyone who attempts to construe a personal view of God which conflicts with (Catholic) church dogma must be burned without pity.” (Source: Papal Bull, 1198 A.D.)

  34. Etienne says:

    2 Thessalonians 2:8 – 12 “And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom by the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan, with all power and signs and lying wonders, And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
    The people who didn’t accept the truth, to them the son of perdition will be revealed when Christ returns. We who have the truth, that is Jesus, to us the truth is revealed. It is after all Satan who has blinded the people to not see the truth.

    The 7 seals are opened. The 7 Trumpets have been blown. We are already in the midst of the 6th Bowl judgement.
    Revelation 16:13-14, “And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs coming out of the mouth of the dragon, out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet. For they are spirits of demons, performing signs, which go out to the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.”
    The dragon is Satan; who has empowered the antichrist beast, the Popes of Rome; who are now controlled by the Jesuit General, the False Prophet.
    As proceeding from the “mouths” of these three powers the “unclean spirits” are instruments of speech.
    They are “spirits” not material forms; spirits inspiring multitudinous tongues; they are “unclean spirits,” false, ungodly, immoral; they are “frog like,” noisy, loquacious, unceasing in their vociferations; low in character while lofty in pretensions; drowning with their hoarse croakings the sound of noble and more harmonious voices, and wearying the ear with persistent clamor.
    The three unclean spirits are “the spirits of devils,” which work in some sense “miracles” or wonders, to gather the world unto the NWO.
    The battle of that great day of God Almighty will happen when the Jesuits have pushed the world into their One World Government, which will push aside all religions and make Messiah and His Church the enemy.
    So the three unclean spirits are something that causes the world to be pushed into their One World Government.
    History clearly shows that three World Wars will fulfill this prophecy:
    They fit the time frame, as WW I started in 1914 A.D., just as the Ottoman Empire had dried up. As a river is dried up, the frogs issue from its bed and banks, and fill the air with their croakings. As the Ottoman Empire dried up, the Muslim countries, the kings of the East, came to power; and they continually talk about war with Israel and America.
    The first two World Wars have significantly shifted the balance of power in the world, and allowed the Jesuits to take over large countries, such as Germany, Russia, etc.
    When Muslim countries attack Israel in WW III, the world will cry out for peace, and a One World Government, to stop religious wars.

  35. Etienne says:

    The Jesuits of Rome have manipulated the kings of the earth, to engage them in the first two World Wars.
    “The public is practically unaware of the overwhelming responsibility carried by the Vatican and its Jesuits in the starting of the two world wars – a situation which may be explained in part by the gigantic finances at the disposition of the Vatican and its Jesuits, giving them power in so many spheres, especially since the last conflict.” Source: Edmond Paris, The Secret History of the Jesuits, page 9
    We can see WW III on the horizon, as Iran seeks nuclear weapons to destroy Israel.
    To see this fulfillment, we will look at the vision of Satanic Freemason Albert Pike. That seem odd, but to know the plans of the enemy, one has to be aware of what the enemies leaders are proclaiming.
    Albert Pike was Brigadier-General in the Confederate Army. In 1869, he was a top leader in the Knights of the Ku Klux Klan.
    He was one of the founding fathers, and head of the Ancient Accepted Scottish Rite of Freemasonry, being the Grand Commander of North American Freemasonry from 1859 and retained that position until his death in 1891.
    He is buried 13 blocks away from the U.S. Capital, in the House of the Temple, headquarters of the Southern Jurisdiction of the Scottish Rite.
    Needless to say he was an evil man who established a framework for bringing about the One World Order.
    Based on a vision revealed to him, Albert Pike wrote a blueprint of events that would lead to the One World Order. It is this blueprint which we believe unseen leaders are following today, knowingly or not, to engineer the planned Third and Final World War.
    “The First World War must be brought about in order to permit the Illuminati to overthrow the power of the Czars in Russia and of making that country a fortress of atheistic Communism. The divergences caused by the “agentur” (agents) of the Illuminati between the British and Germanic Empires will be used to foment this war. At the end of the war, Communism will be built and used in order to destroy the other governments and in order to weaken the religions.”
    The Jesuits created the false flag operation of the sinking of the Lusitania, blaming the Germans, to engage America into the war.
    During World War I, the monarchies of Turkey, Austria-Hungary, Germany, and Russia all met their demise. With one war, the Jesuits helped overthrow these leaders, to take control of these countries.
    “The Second World War must be fomented by taking advantage of the differences between the Fascists and the political Zionists. This war must be brought about so that Nazism is destroyed and that the political Zionism be strong enough to institute a sovereign state of Israel in Palestine. During the Second World War, International Communism must become strong enough in order to balance Christendom, which would be then restrained and held in check until the time when we would need it for the final social cataclysm.”
    The Jesuits created the false flag Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor, allowing America to enter WW II.
    The Jesuits and Popes supported Hitler. Hitler is quoted in saying that he designed his SS after the order of the Jesuits.
    Albert Pike foretold Political Zionism, before there was Zionism, but it’s been their plan for a long time. WW II helped justify the need for the creation of the Zionist state of Israel, which the Jesuits need for their end times deception, for them to rule from Jerusalem.
    One of the reasons for WW II was to give the Rothchild’s control of the land of Israel.
    “The Third World War must be fomented by taking advantage of the differences caused by the “agentur” of the “Illuminati” between the political Zionists and the leaders of Islamic World. The war must be conducted in such a way that Islam (the Moslem Arabic World) and political Zionism (the State of Israel) mutually destroy each other. Meanwhile the other nations, once more divided on this issue will be constrained to fight to the point of complete physical, moral, spiritual and economical exhaustion…We shall unleash the Nihilists and the atheists, and we shall provoke a formidable social cataclysm which in all its horror will show clearly to the nations the effect of absolute atheism, origin of savagery and of the most bloody turmoil. Then everywhere, the citizens, obliged to defend themselves against the world minority of revolutionaries, will exterminate those destroyers of civilization, and the multitude, disillusioned with Christianity, whose deistic spirits will from that moment be without compass or direction, anxious for an ideal, but without knowing where to render its adoration, will receive the true light through the universal manifestation of the pure doctrine of Lucifer, brought finally out in the public view. This manifestation will result from the general reactionary movement which will follow the destruction of Christianity and atheism, both conquered and exterminated at the same time.”
    The Jesuit General, the False Prophet earth beast of Revelation 13, already controls most Muslim countries. The Jesuit-founded CIA controls Al Qaeda and ISIS, to help overthrow leaders like President Assad of Syria, as he has not bowed down to their authority.
    The Jesuits used deceptive false flags to justify overthrowing these leaders. 9/11 was caused by the Jesuits through the CIA and MOSSAD.
    Using the supposed “War On Terror” as an excuse, they used the U.S. military to overthrow the leaders of Iraq, Afghanistan and Libya, as they had not bowed down to the authority of the Jesuits. Now those countries have a Jesuit Rothchild central bank and leaders who are ruled by the Jesuits.
    The Jesuits use sorcery, manipulation and mind control, to control the leaders of most countries, who continually croak out threats of war, to agitate, delude and seduce the minds of men.
    The leaders of China, North Korea, Russia, Iran, Israel, and America, all voice threats and ultimatums. The Jesuits control all sides and they cause these leaders to play out their narrative, to gather the world into WW III.
    John did not see three frogs, but “spirits like frogs.”
    “Such, I say, – the dragon, beast, and false prophet appear to me clearly to be the three principles, or spirits, intended: – the spirits in regard of which the prophecy intimates that they would act with unity of effect, if not of purpose, so as to gather the powers of the world in antagonism against Christ’s truth and people, introductory to the great coming day of final conflict.” Elliot, Horae, III, pp., 492-496
    The narrative is being setup. There will be a ‘religious’ war between Muslim countries and Zionist Israel, and possibly Zionist America.
    The evil ones control all sides and they will control the outcome.
    They will cause the world to cry out for a solution, a one world government, to stop religious wars, in the name of peace.
    And in their One World Order, they will join together the main religions in the name of peace, and they will cause the world to hate the true followers of Messiah, who won’t join with them.
    And the battle of the great day of God almighty is setup.
    The White Pope, who is controlled by the Jesuit General Black Pope, is their spokesman. He has said that religious fundamentalism is dangerous.
    All of this proves that a Pre-Tribulatin Rapture is unbiblical and if it was true, the church would have been raptured in the 1st century just before the Great Tribulation that took place in 67-70AD.

  36. Dear Etienne

    You said “All of this proves that a Pre-Tribulatin Rapture is unbiblical and if it was true, the church would have been raptured in the 1st century just before the Great Tribulation that took place in 67-70AD.”

    Nothing of what you said proves that there will not be a Pre-Trib rapture. We follow what the bible has to say regarding the pre-trib rapture, not someones ideas regarding history and what they think…therefore it must be. Nope.

    A lot that you say is true regarding Rome, etc, etc etc. History of course is always true, no one here denies that Rome rules this world and all false religions including Islam – but you fail to see how history repeats itself over and over and over and over again, you fail to see how history repeats itself in the big things and the very small things, and you fail to see the dispensations of humankind and the separation of the Bride of Christ and Israel. We are not ammilennial in our beliefs.

    Are you a Calvinist?

  37. Etienne says:

    Dear Deborah
    Thanks for your quick response, although Im not quite sure why you stated “We are not ammilennial in our beliefs”…?

    Nope not a Calvinist at all, why you asking?

  38. Hi Etienne Hi/

    Well your eschatology appears to be amillenialist. I could be wrong. Please correct me if I am wrong. Do you believe we are already living in the 1000 year reign?

    Calvinists are generally amilenialists.

  39. Etienne says:

    Hi Deborah
    No definitely not. I believe the 1000 year reign will be after the return of Jesus for the battle of Armageddon, when He will setup His kingdom for 1000years om earth.

  40. Hi Etienne

    You said “I believe the 1000 year reign will be after the return of Jesus for the battle of Armageddon, when He will setup His kingdom for 1000years om earth.”

    Okie dokie. Cool. So let’s get down to the nitty gritty. As I am trying to understand your eschatology. I just want to re-read your comments tomorrow morning (I’m a bit sleepy now…my 1 brain cell is tired). Then I will comment with questions. Up/

  41. Etienne says:

    Hi Deborah
    Thats perfect👍👍 ill be cheking the posts

  42. Robbie says:

    Ettienne… Do you endorse David Nikao, a staunch Calvinist who loves Spurgeon and is also mixed up with Torah keepers and Hebrew rooters?
    You seem to copy and paste directly from his web.
    Nikao also befriended Nephtalie1981 (Demons had sex and babies with women on earth)
    He endorses “gospel is not enough” Chuck Baldwin as well as Copeland’s buddy Andrew Green? Faint/
    … and MANY more.

    Just yes or no will do thanks

  43. Robbie says:

    Oh yes… this David Nikao.

    Your post of 12 Dec 2017 at 1:58 comes from there. “The Jesuits of Rome have manipulated the kings of the earth,”
    David Nikao… with the Todd Bentley tattoos?
    Sorry for the detail… just want to be sure..

    And this one…

  44. Hi Robbie Hi/

    Thank you for that info. I did pick up on the copy and paste as I have read all this before, in emails I was sent from someone who just put me on their email spam list without my consent.

    So Ettiene, what do you have to say about this? You are not a Calvinist, yet follow a stanch Calvinist… Interesting Scratch/ … who follows some really umbilical teachings… which makes this even more interesting Dazed/

  45. Etienne says:

    Hi Robbie & Deborah
    Think/ This is creepy info Robbie.
    Yes, I did find alot of my researches from David’s website and yes I did copy and paste from there. I did some research on him but did not find any info like the info you just shared on the comments. Robbie could you please send me a link on where you found youre info from? But to answer youre question Deborah, I am not a Calvinist and I am definitely also not into Hebrew roots and I do appreciate the info regarding David

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    1. If any part of the “Comment” is not your original work, it is your responsibility to add the name of the third party, name the book with page number or a link (url) to the website where you obtained the information.
    2. Your “Comment” may contain Copyrighted material, the use of which has not always been specifically authorized by the copyright owner. You are however allowed to make such material available in your “Comment” in an effort to advance understanding of environmental, political, human rights, economic, democracy, scientific, and social justice issues, etc.  This constitutes a ‘fair use’ of any such copyrighted material as provided for in section 107 of the US Copyright Law. In accordance with Title 17 U.S.C. Section 107, the material on this Site is distributed without profit to those who have expressed a prior interest in receiving the included information for research and educational purposes. For more information go to:
    3. If you wish to use copyrighted material from a website or any other medium for purposes to add to your “Comment” that go beyond ‘fair use’, you must obtain permission from the copyright owner. (Fair Use means you may quote from copyrighted sources, but you may not publish the whole article, book, etc., in your “Comment”.)
  8. You are solely responsible for the “Comment” you upload, post, transmit or otherwise make available to others using this Web Site. Under no circumstances will Discerning the World be liable in any way for any “Comment” posted on or made available through this Site by you or any third party.
  9. You understand that all “Comments” on this Site are pre-screened or moderated. That means that every “Comment” needs to be approved by Discerning the World before it appears in the “Comments” section.  This is not an automatic process.  Discerning the World does this for SPAM reasons.
  10. Discerning the World has the right (but not the obligation) in their sole unfettered discretion to remove any “Comment” that is posted on or available through the Site. Without limiting the foregoing, Discerning the World has the right to remove any “Comment” that violates these Terms or is otherwise deemed objectionable by Discerning the World in its sole discretion.
  11. You understand that Discerning the World in their sole unfettered discretion is not obligated and can not be forced in any manner, be it legal or otherwise to remove any “Comment” that is posted on or made available through the Site by you.
  12. When submitting a “Comment,” you will be asked to provide your name and your email address. While Discerning the World does not object to your use of a pseudonym instead of your actual name, Discerning the World reserves the right, but not the obligation, to reject, change, disallow, or discontinue at any time any submission name that, in Discerning the World’s sole unfettered discretion, is objectionable or inappropriate for any reason. Discerning the World requires the submission of your email address, but Discerning the World warrants that it will not publish your email address to an outside third party without your consent.
  13. Discerning the World does not sell or rent your personal information to third parties for their marketing purposes. From time to time, Discerning the World may contact you personally via email. Notwithstanding the foregoing, you acknowledge and understand that the “Comments” feature of the Site is designed to permit users to post information and commentary for public review and comment and thus you hereby waive any expectation of privacy you may have concerning any likeness or information provided to the Site by you.
  14. You are solely responsible for your interactions with other users of or visitors to the Site.
    1. Discerning the World shall have the right, but not the obligation, to monitor interactions utilizing the “Comments” facility of the Site, between you and other users of or visitors to the Site. You acknowledge and agree that Discerning the World, or any third party shall not be, and you shall not seek to hold them, responsible for any harm or damage whatsoever arising in connection with your interaction with other users of or visitors to the Site.
    2. Discerning the World does not verify any information posted to or communicated via the “Comments” sections of the Site by users and does not guarantee the proper use of such information by any party who may have access to the information. You acknowledge and agree that Discerning the World does not assume, and shall not have, any responsibility for the content of messages or other communications sent or received by users of the Site.
  15. The Site contains content created by or on behalf of Discerning the World as well as content provided by third parties.
    1. Discerning the World does not control, and makes no representations or warranties about, any third party content, including such content that may be accessible directly on the Site or through links from the Site to third party sites.
    2. You acknowledge that, by viewing the Site or communications transmitted through the Site, you may be exposed to third party content that is false, offensive or otherwise objectionable to you or others, and you agree that under no circumstances shall Discerning the World be liable in any way, under any theory, for any third party content.
    3. You acknowledge and agree that the Site, and the contents thereof, is proprietary to Discerning the World and is protected by copyright. You agree that you will not access or use the Site or any of the content thereof for any reason or purpose other than your personal, non-commercial use.
    4. You agree that you will not systematically retrieve data or other content from the Site by any means, and you will not compile a database or directory of information extracted from the Site.
    5. You agree that you will not reproduce, distribute or make derivative works of the Site or any of the contents thereof without the express consent of Discerning the World.
    6. You hereby agree to indemnify, defend and hold harmless Discerning the World, its affiliates and licensees, and all of their officers, directors, employees, agents and representatives from and against any and all liabilities, losses, claims, damages, and expenses (including attorneys’ fees) in connection with any claim arising out of your use of the Site or violation of any of these Terms.



16. These Terms constitute the entire agreement between Discerning the World and you with respect to the subject matter hereof, and supersede any previous oral or written agreement between us with respect to such subject matter.

Thank you!

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