Scott Pruitt and His No-Pretrib Fallacies – Part 2

SCOTT PRUITT AND HIS NO-PRETRIB FALLACIES – Part 2

As a rule, it’s a very good thing to cross-refer to passages in the Old Testament when you want to emphasize and substantiate certain New Testament truths. However, you ought to make very sure that your cross references harmonize with the things you wish to verify, especially when your name is Scott Pruitt.

Scott Pruitt does indeed cross-refer to the Old Testament but seems to have missed the fact that his cross references miserably disprove his position on the Post-Tribulation Rapture. Let us now examine his cross reference with regard to his article “3 Reasons Why There Cannot Be A Pre-Tribulation Rapture,” in the light of Scripture. He tries very hard to substantiate his No-Pretrib diatribes in his second reason why there cannot be a Pre-Tribulation Rapture.

SCOTT PRUITT’S REASON #2

Pruitt writes:

Exodus: A parallel to the coming of God’s Judgement and Deliverance. Moses himself said that God was going to send someone after him
that was like him, speaking of Jesus. Pharaoh held God’s people in slavery for generations but the time came when God said enough, I will Molechjudge those who oppressed My People. He sent Moses to stand before Pharaoh telling him to repent, and each time Pharaoh ultimately refused. So God sent terrible plagues on the land of Egypt, very similar to the plagues mentioned in the book of Revelation. In Exodus God made a distinction between His people and the people of Egypt when it came to how the plagues affected them, but still they remained in Egypt as God’s judgement rained down.

It was after the plagues and judgments that God caught up His people and took them out of Egypt, but only those who were covered by the blood of the Passover lamb. When Pharaoh pursued them God Himself took Pharaoh and his army and drowned them in the depths of the sea. In the same way, the book of Revelation states that after God’s judgement and deliverance he binds Satan for a thousand years casting him into the abyss. Sound familiar? It was after that that God literally dwelt in the midst of his people. In the same way when we are caught up to be with God we shall always be with Him. These are the things Paul said we should comfort one another with. When do we need comfort? When we are suffering.

The internal protective power of God in Exodus cannot possibly be used as a cross reference or an example of how God is allegedly going to protect the saints (the Jews and Gentiles who are going to be saved) during the seven-year tribulation from the assumed wrath of Satan and Antichrist, which allegedly is going to transpire during the first 6 seals in the book of  Revelation.

Many passages in Scripture affirm that the entire gamut of the seven-year tribulation will be the time of God’s wrath (judgments) and will not, as Jacob Prasch states, first commence when the seventh seal is opened, whilst the first six are respectively Antichrist’s and Satan’s wrath. (i.e. the Pre-Wrath Rapture)

SCRIPTURE THAT PROVE GOD’S WRATH WILL RUN THE ENTIRE SEVEN- YEAR TRIBULATION

Isaiah 24:1; 26:21; Joel 1:15; Zephaniah 1:18; Revelation 6:16-17); 11:18; 14:7, 10, 19; 15:4. 7; 16:7. 19; 19:1-2).

These passages prove beyond any doubt that the entire period of the seven-year tribulation is eminently the time when God’s wrath and judgments will be poured out on the entire world. Therefore, it is not as the Pre-Wrath and Post-Tribulation Rapturists believe, the wrath of Satan and his Antichrist or of men, except as God may use these agencies as channels for the execution of his will.

Satan cannot do a thing without God’s permission which means that his and the Antichrist’s wrath against those who are going to be saved during the seven-year tribulation will transpire only when God permits them. Hence the statement in Revelation 13:7.

(7) And it was given unto him [Antichrist] to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him [Antichrist] over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

An Old Testament example of God’s permissive will is that of Job. Let’s go there.

Job 2:3-6 Amplified Bible (AMP)

3 The Lord said to Satan, “Have you considered and reflected on My servant Job? For there is none like him on the earth, a blameless and upright man, one who fears God [with reverence] and abstains from and turns away from evil [because he honors God]. And still he maintains and holds tightly to his integrity, although you incited Me against him to destroy him without cause.” Satan answered the Lord, “[Skin for skin! Yes, a man will give all he has for his life. 5 But put forth Your hand now, and touch his bone and his flesh [and severely afflict him]; and he will curse You to Your face.” 6 So the Lord said to Satan, “Behold, he is in your hand, only spare his life.”

The only difference between Job and the tribulation saints is that God is going to allow Satan to kill most of the saints during the seven-year tribulation whilst He forbade Satan to murder Job.

This completely debunks Scott Pruitt’s Exodus parallel and the assumption that God is going to protect the saints from Satan’s and his Antichrist’s wrath during the seven-year tribulation which makes his comparison with Israel’s divine protection in Goshen look rather silly. God is NOT, I repeat NOT going to protect the saints during the seven-year tribulation in the same way He protected Israel in the land of Goshen in Egypt.

LIKE THE PRE-WRATH RAPTURE, POST-TRIBULATIONISM IS BASED ON DENIALS.

1. POST-TRIBULATIONISM DENIES THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN THE CHURCH AND ISRAEL

The fact that Scott Pruitt likens the Post-Tribulation Rapture to God’s protection of Israel in Goshen when He poured out his wrath and judgments (ten plagues) on Egypt, after Israel had been enslaved for 430 years, exemplifies his failure to distinguish between the church and Israel.

First of all, if it had been true that the church (Bride of Christ) were to go through the seven-year tribulation, it won’t be because Antichrist – like Pharaoh who held Israel in bondage in Egypt – is going to hold them in bondage on earth during the full range of the seven seals so that they cannot escape his clutches.

If, as the Pre-Wrath and Post-Tribulation adherents believe, the purpose of their tribulation and persecution will be to purify Christ Jesus’ Bride, it would obviously be God who wills them to go through the tribulation and not Satan or Antichrist. Why? Because the latter two varmints have no desire to purify the church. Therefore, there is no reason whatsoever to believe that – like Pharaoh – Antichrist is going to hold the believers in bondage to the earth until he submits to God’s command “Let my people go, and least of all to purify the church. That’s ridiculous, to say the least.

Secondly, God is not going to send someone to stand before Antichrist in the same way he sent Moses to Pharaoh and command him to repent. Neither are the plagues (judgments) in the book of Revelation going to be poured out on the entire world because Antichrist, like Pharaoh, is going to refuse to let God’s people go. As already indicated, God is going to allow Antichrist to slaughter the saints (those who are going to be saved during the tribulation), and primarily to persecute and slaughter the Jews (saved and unsaved; Jeremiah 30:7).

God is not going to pour out his judgments on the entire world because of Antichrist’s alleged refusal to let God’s people go. God’s judgments are going to fall on all the nations of the world, including Israel because of their stubborn rebellion, iniquities, and sin.

(21)  For, behold, the LORD cometh out of his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity: the earth also shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain. (Isaiah 26:21)

Note carefully that in the very same chapter and verse 9, which I have referred to in my previous article, we find the reason why God is going to allow his people, the Jews, to be persecuted during the seven-year-tribulation.

(9)  With my soul have I desired thee in the night; yea, with my spirit within me will I seek thee early: for when thy judgments are in the earth, the inhabitants of the world will learn righteousness.

(10)  Let favour be shewed to the wicked, yet will he not learn righteousness: in the land of uprightness will he deal unjustly, and will not behold the majesty of the LORD. (Isaiah 26:9-10).

At this point, it is necessary to remind ourselves what the essence of sin is.

(8)  And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:

(9)  Of sin, because they believe not on me; (John 16:8-8)

Scott Pruitt makes it look as if Antichrist is going to try and prevent the Pre-Wrath or Post -Tribulation Raptures from happening, via his persecution of the Jews because, not unlike Moses, he is going to refuse to let Israel go and to be caught up by God. Only when God’s judgments fall on him and his cohorts will he (Antichrist) trigger the rapture, in much the same way Pharaoh allowed Israel to go when he no longer could stomach God’s severe judgments.

Really? Rubbish!! Can any man, let alone Antichrist, postpone or prevent the Pre-Wrath or the Post-Tribulation Raptures by refusing to let Israel go, assuming, of course, that there are either a Pre-Wrath or Post-Tribulation Rapture?

2. POST-TRIBULATIONISM, LIKE THE ADHERENTS TO THE PRE-WRATH RAPTURE, DENIES THE DOCTRINE OF IMMINENCE

Paul who disclosed the mystery (musterion) of the Rapture, believed that it could occur at any moment, even in his own lifetime. It was partly his teaching of imminence that caused the Thessalonian Christians to believe that the Rapture had already occurred and that they were in the midst of the tribulation.

Imminence is an indispensable necessity of the Pre-Tribulation Rapture. Not knowing when it will occur, motivates saints to be ready at all times, to live lives that are holy and well-pleasing to the Lord and not to get involved in worldly dainties that defile them.

Moreover, the most important reason for an imminent return of our Lord and Savior, and why the exact date of his return at the Pre-Tribulation rapture is not disclosed, is to prevent unbelievers from saying, “I will repent and receive Jesus as my Savior close to his coming at the Pre-Tribulation Rapture. I first want to enjoy my life here on earth and do as I please” or “I still have so much work I need to finish that I cannot think of repenting and receive Jesus as my Savior right now. I will do so close to his return on such and such a date.”

Remember this?

Luke 14:16-24

(16)  Then said he unto him, A certain man made a great supper, and bade many:

(17)  And sent his servant at supper time to say to them that were bidden, Come; for all things are now ready.

(18)  And they all with one consent began to make excuse. The first said unto him, I have bought a piece of ground, and I must needs go and see it: I pray thee have me excused.

(19)  And another said, I have bought five yoke of oxen, and I go to prove them: I pray thee have me excused.

(20)  And another said, I have married a wife, and therefore I cannot come.

(21)  So that servant came, and shewed his lord these things. Then the master of the house being angry said to his servant, Go out quickly into the streets and lanes of the city, and bring in hither the poor, and the maimed, and the halt, and the blind.

(22)  And the servant said, Lord, it is done as thou hast commanded, and yet there is room.

(23)  And the lord said unto the servant, Go out into the highways and hedges, and compel them to come in, that my house may be filled.

(24)  For I say unto you, That none of those men which were bidden shall taste of my supper (Christ’s Millennial reign of peace on earth).

I sincerely believe the reason why the five foolish virgins won’t have enough oil in their lamps when Jesus returns at his Second Advent to the earth (not the Pre-Tribulation Rapture) will be because they are willfully and deliberately going to procrastinate to repent and be saved, thinking that they can do so the moment He comes back.

Whereas the Pre-Tribulation society do not know when Jesus is going to return due to its imminence, and therefore dare not wait until He appears with a view to turn to Him for the forgiveness of their sins and salvation, the seven-year tribulation earth dwellers, will know when He returns by virtue of the many signs during the seven-year tribulation. Knowing when his return at his Second Advent will occur, they will probably procrastinate to the very end, surmising that they may safely wait until his return is at the very door, and then ask the five wise virgins who will have enough oil to share some of their oil with them. Alas, it will be too late for them.

Matthew 25:1-13

(1)  Then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened unto ten virgins, which took their lamps, and went forth to meet the bridegroom.

(2)  And five of them were wise, and five were foolish.

(3)  They that were foolish took their lamps, and took no oil with them:

(4)  But the wise took oil in their vessels with their lamps.

(5)  While the bridegroom tarried, they all slumbered and slept. (Discerning the world: Surely the latter cannot refer to normal sleep and slumber. Had it been normal sleep and slumber, it would mean that the five wise virgins never slept and slumbered in order to distinguish them from the foolish virgins. Therefore, it can only refer to procrastination or a postponement to be saved. No wonder it is said that procrastination is the very last stepping stone to hell.).

(6)  And at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet him.

(7)  Then all those virgins arose, and trimmed their lamps.

(8)  And the foolish said unto the wise, Give us of your oil; for our lamps are gone out.

(9)  But the wise answered, saying, Not so; lest there be not enough for us and you: but go ye rather to them that sell, and buy for yourselves. (Discerning the World: Salvation is not transferable or transmittable to others.).

(10)  And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut.

(11)  Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us.

(12)  But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not.

(13)  Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh.

Scott Pruitt and his cronies have this silly notion that beheadings, martyrdom, imprisonment for your faith, floggings, crucifixion and other gruesome bodily injuries like the cutting off of hands, arms, and feet, boiling in hot oil and burning at the stake is the sum total of persecution and tribulation.

Wake up gentlemen, this is not the only way to persecute God’s children. Listen up, Messieurs Scott Pruitt, Jacob Prasch and Joe Schimmel, when you summarily banned me from your sites, blogs and Facebook pages, just like the infamous Calvinists who banned me from theirs, you persecuted me. Nevertheless, let God be the judge who judges righteously.

Tom (Discerning the World)

Tom Lessing is the author of the above article. Discerning the World is an internet Christian Ministry based in Johannesburg South Africa. Tom Lessing and Deborah Ellish both own Discerning the World. For more information see the About this Website page below the comments section.

34 Responses

  1. Michael says:

    I see many articles showing what you are against. So where is your statement of faith, showing your doctrines?

  2. Bruce says:

    I’m amazed your picture containing all the photos of those that you consider heretics,,and a lot of them are but you show no Roman Catholics past or present, people who have sown herecy for hundreds of years, or do you have a separate section on the Roman church

  3. Dear Bruce

    I’m a bit confused, what picture are you referring to? There is only one picture of Scott Pruitt.

  4. Dear Michael

    A statement of faith in my opinion is quite frankly useless. I’ve seen hundreds of statements of faith where they list all the things they believe but don’t list all the things they don’t believe. Some statements of faith are pretty generic and are put there to confuse people into thinking the church / organisation is Godly.
    DTW’s statement of faith is the Word of God – I assume you have a bible, go read it :)

  5. Daisy says:

    Hi…I have a rapture question (I apologize if it has already been asked and answered). A few people lately have told me that 2 Thessalonians 2 disproves a pre-trib rapture (in that it states the day of the Lord won’t occur prior to the revelation of the man of lawlessness). Could you shed some light on that passage? Is it actually referring to the Second Coming?

  6. Hi Daisy :hi:

    This question has come up a lot on DTW and I actually did an article about Jacob Prasch propagating the very teaching you are hearing about. Please read the article: Jacob Prasch – Twisting Scripture the Midrash Way

    The article explains what the ‘Day of the Lord’ is.

  7. Daisy says:

    Thanks, Deborah! I will check it out!

  8. Shane Shaddix says:

    Yes, I totally agree. Imminence is an indispensable necessity of the pre-trib rapture doctrine. But, the doctrine of imminence does not exist in the Bible. It is quite ironic that pre-tribbers like to go to Matthew 24:36 and 42 for proof texts of imminence, when that text clearly teaches in vs. 29, that the gathering of the elect is after the tribulation of those days (great tribulation). I Thess 4:16 clearly says the dead in Christ will rise first, that is the resurrection must happen before the elect are caught up. Yes, it is the elect (see I Thess 1:4). The resurrection is key to understanding the timing of the rapture. There are many prophecies that must be fulfilled before the resurrection (see Job 14:12, Daniel 12, Matthew 13, and John 6.) And as far as distinguishing between the church and Israel, Stephen had the same problem. He said in Acts 7:38 that Moses had church in the wilderness and Jesus was there. Paul had a problem distinguishing between the church and Israel. He said in Ephesians 3:21 that the church has been throughout all ages. And again, Paul also, if he be the writer of Hebrews, in agreement with Stephen, says Moses was faithful in all His (the Lord’s, see Numbers 12:7) house, whose house are we (Heb. 3:6), speaking to New Testament believers. The church is the house of God (I Tim 3:15). I guess Jesus also had a problem distinguishing between the church and Israel for He gave church discipline to the disciples in Matthew 18:15-20 (see vs. 17…and this He did before His death, burial, and resurrection…which means before the Holy Spirit was given at Pentecost). We need to quit throwing stones at Stephen and just believe what he said. We are not in “the church age”, we are in “a church age” (the New Testament church age). Remember, when Christ purchased the church with His own blood, He did not purchase something that was not in existence yet. Remember, believing Gentiles are graft into something that already existed (Romans 11). The church is the elect. Compare Col 1:2 to Col. 3:12. That the church is the elect, Peter is in agreement (I Peter 1:2). Now the elect existed in the days of Elijah and the seven thousand (Romans 11:5). Notice in verse 5 the word “also”. Paul said the NT believing Jews in his day were part of the election of grace that Elijah and the seven thousand were. The unbelieving Jews in Israel now are not the remnant, but are “the rest” that were blinded (Romans 11:7)

  9. You wrote:
    “Yes, I totally agree. Imminence is an indispensable necessity of the pre-trib rapture doctrine. But, the doctrine of imminence does not exist in the Bible.”

    Your statement above seems to be symptomatic of the way you prefer to think and argue. You may as well have said:

    Yes, I totally agree. The term Trinity is an indispensable necessity of the Triune doctrine. But, the word “Trinity” does not exist in the Bible.

    Matthew 24:36 and 42 cannot possibly be used as proof texts of the imminence of the Rapture because it has absolutely nothing to do with the Rapture. Like you, many Christians believe that when the word “elect” pops up in the Bible it always refers to born-again believers (the church). Isaiah 45:4 disproves your premise.

    “For Jacob my servant’s sake, and Israel mine elect, I have even called thee by thy name: I have surnamed thee, though thou hast not known me. (Isaiah 45:4).”

    The entire nation of Israel is God’s elect in the sense that He chose them to bring his Messiah (Saviour) into the world. I am sure you’ll agree with Jesus when He said, “salvation is of the Jews.” Does that mean the entire nation of Israel is going to be saved to inherit eternal life? The term “children of the Kingdom” is a synonym for “elect” when it refers to Israel as a nation. Is every Jew a child of the Kingdom (Christ’s Millennial reign of peace on earth)? Jesus clearly said “And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven. But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth. (Mat 8:11-12). Unbelieving Jews will not inherit the Kingdom of heaven (i.e. the Kingdom that will come down to earth as Jesus taught us to pray).

    However, there will be a believing remnant among the nation of Israel who is going to inherit the Kingdom of heaven on earth. Consider the following promise of God to Israel (the believing remnant).

    “And they shall build houses, and inhabit them, and they shall plant vineyards, and eat the fruit of them. They shall not build, and another inhabit; they shall not plant, and another eat: for as the days of a tree are the days of my people, and mine elect shall long enjoy the work of their hands.” (Isa 65:21-22).

    It cannot possibly refer to the church (Bride of Christ who is also called God’s elect). She was never promised a blessed time of peace during which she will build houses on earth and inhabit them, plant vineyards and eat the fruit of them, and shall long enjoy the works of their hands. Jesus promised his Bride that He will prepare (build) a place in heaven for her. (John 14:1-3). Jesus is the One who will be doing the preparations for his Bride in heaven where there are already many mansions.

    To say that Moses had a church in the wilderness, suggesting, of course, that his church and today’s church are the same, is blatantly inaccurate. The word “ekklesia” is not used only in terms of the church as we know it today. Strong’s concordance defines “ekklesia” as “From a compound of G1537 and a derivative of G2564; a calling out, that is, (concretely) a popular meeting, especially a religious congregation (Jewish synagogue, or Christian community of members on earth or saints in heaven or both): – assembly, church.” The only way to determine whether Moses’ ekklesia is the ekklesia of today’s church, is to ask whether the ekklesia in the time of Moses was also called the Bride of Christ (the congregation of true believers in this dispensation).

    The short answer is NO. The tabernacle which Moses built in the wilderness, and the temple later, was purely and simply a Jewish phenomenon, and guess what, Israel is God the Father’s wife and not the Bride of Christ.

    “Turn, O backsliding children, saith the LORD; for I am married unto you: . . .” (Jeremiah 3:14)

    Notice the emphatic “I am married unto you.” Therefore, it cannot be Jesus to whom this passage refers. His marriage to his Bride will only be consummated subsequent to the Pre-tribulation Rapture and the Bema Throne judgment of the Bride. Jesus cannot possibly have two wives. That would have made Him a polygamist.

    The notion that there is only one resurrection at Jesus Christ’s return to earth at his Second Advent is so utterly unbiblical that it is not worthy of an in-depth answer. All I can say is that there are several resurrections. One example is that the unsaved will only be resurrected at the end of the Millennial Kingdom on earth, or are they too going to be resurrected at Jesus’ Second Advent?

  10. Shane Shaddix says:

    matthew 15:8-9

  11. Shane Shaddix says:

    I will try to be plain. I didn’t say the “word” imminence is not in the bible, I did say the “doctrine” of imminence is not in the bible.

    No rapture till resurrection! I Thess. 4:16(b)-17(a)
    No resurrection till the heavens be no more. Job 14:12
    No departing of the heavens till the sun and moon be darkened and the stars fall. Rev. 6:12-14
    No darkening of the heavens till after the tribulation of those days. Matt. 24:29
    No great tribulation till the abomination of desolation. Matt. 24:15 and 21 and II Thess. 2:3-4
    No abomination of desolation till a great falling away . II Thess. 2;3

  12. Shane Shaddix says:

    The promise in Isaiah 65 is to believers of both the nation of Israel and believers of a nation not called by his name. Compare. Isaiah 65:1-2 to Romans 10:19-21. Romans 10:19-20 corresponds to Isaiah 65:1 and Duet. 32:21(the gentiles) and Romans 10:21 references Isaiah 65:2 (Israel) .

    And seeing as how you mentioned Jeremiah; was not the promise of the new testament given to the house of Judah and the house of Israel? Jeremiah 31:31-36 And by the way,just for grins, you might want to compare Jeremiah 31:35-36 to Revelation 6:14. Notice the common word “depart”.

    Now concerning the “believing remnant among the nation of Israel who is going to inherit the Kingdom of heaven on earth”, they are the remnant according to the election of grace mentioned in Romans 11:5. Now Paul is clearly saying they are saved by grace in this new testament church age “this present time” yet he ties them back to Elijah and the seven thousand men who have not bowed to the image of Baal. Please give close consideration to the word “also” in verse 5 of Romans 11.

    To say that Jesus is not Jehovah God of the of the nation of Israel is a dangerous place to be. Jesus said “other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold and one shepherd.”

    Notice Paul’s exhortation to Jewish believers part of the new testament church about those of faith who died before the new testament age,”And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise: God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us, should not be made perfect.” Hebrews 11;39-40.

    Thanks and God bless!

  13. Shane Shaddix.

    “I will try to be plain. I didn’t say the “word” imminence is not in the bible, I did say the “doctrine” of imminence is not in the bible.”

    You are deliriously confused. The fact is, the word “imminence” is not ion the Bible bible butt the doctrine is, in the same way, the word “Trinity” is not in the Bible but the doctrine is.

    be resurrected then, as you say, who is going to populate the Millennial Age of peace on earth?

    If the resurrection only occurs till the heavens be no more (Job 134:12), again we should ask, who is going to populate the 1000 year reign of peace on earth when the old heaven and earth is only going to be destroyed AFTER the Millennial and a new heaven and earth is going to be created.

    What say you, when is the unbelieving dead going to be resurrected?

  14. Shane Shaddix.

    You wrote::

    The promise in Isaiah 65 is to believers of both the nation of Israel and believers of a nation not called by his name. Compare. Isaiah 65:1-2 to Romans 10:19-21. Romans 10:19-20 corresponds to Isaiah 65:1 and Duet. 32:21(the gentiles) and Romans 10:21 references Isaiah 65:2 (Israel).

    Indeed the promise in Isaiah 65 is to believers from both Israel and the Gentiles. Nonetheless, God is going to deal with Israel uniquely different from the church in the seven-year tribulation (Jacob’s trouble and NOT the church trouble.) You should really try to read Romans 10 in context with Romans 11 more carefully to get the full picture.

    “God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying, Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life. But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal. Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace. And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work. What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for, but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded. (Romans 11:2-7).”

    The “elect” does not refer to both believing Jews and Gentiles in this dispensation. Paul refers to God’s Covenant People (the Jews) of whom some (a remnant) are going to be saved at Jesus Christ Second Advent (NOT the rapture) to inherit their promised land during the Millenial. I suggest that you read Ezekiel 37 with special attention to verse 28:

    Moreover, I will make a covenant of peace with them; it shall be an everlasting covenant with them: and I will place them, and multiply them, and will set my sanctuary in the midst of them for evermore. My tabernacle also shall be with them: yea, I will be their God, and they shall be my people. And the heathen shall know that I the LORD do sanctify Israel, when my sanctuary shall be in the midst of them for evermore. (Ezekiel 37:26-28). Notice the distinction God makes between the Jews and the Gentiles during the Millennial Age of peace on earth. The word for heathen is “gôy” which refers to the Gentiles.

    You wrote:

    “To say that Jesus is not Jehovah God of the of the nation of Israel is a dangerous place to be. Jesus said “other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold and one shepherd.”

    You are a liar. I never said or even suggested such a thing.

  15. Shane Shaddix

    So, Matthew 15:8-9 applies to me because I do not believe in a post-tribulation rapture as you do? Really? Couldn’t it perhaps rather apply to you?

  16. Shane Shaddix says:

    I think you missed the point . Jesus said to the pharisees which worshiped the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob; “in vain do they worship ME” claiming that He is the same LORD speaking in Jeremiah 3:14. But since you brought it up, He did say their worship was in vain because they taught man’s doctrine and not His word. As for what I believe,you can title it what you will,but I believe my Lord, which said the gathering of the saints is after the tribulation of those days Matt. 24, the harvest is at the “END of the world” Matt. 13, and the resurrection is “at the LAST DAY”John 6:39,40,44,54 and the great commission is “UNTO THE END OF THE WORLD”. Title it what you will, but that’s what I believe. and By the way I gave an in-depth apology concerning your charge that I am a Liar. I sent it last night but some reason it didn’t post. If I can retrieve it ,I will attempt to send again.

    God bless and goodday

  17. Shane Shaddix

    You still haven’t answered my questions. When are the unbelievers going to be resurrected? Your arguments are flimsy, to say the least. Please answer my questions. What about my question concerning the “Angel of the Lord.” Who is it? Another question which you refuse to answer is: Who is going to populate the Millennium in their natural bodies when all the saints will have been resurrected in their incorruptible bodies at the end of the tribulation?

    Now, listen carefully. One of the first and foremost reasons why some are deceived beyond recollection is that they refuse to answer simple questions. They are just plain stumped, like you.

  18. Shane Shaddix says:

    I answered some of your questions in depth in the comment I sent last night, but for some reason it didn’t post. I did not copy and save it so I don’t have it. I spent quite a bit of time putting it together. Can you check on your end to see if it got there, but did not post for some reason? I will wait to hear back from you if you find it or not. If not, I will reattempt to answer from Scripture. As far as the population in the Millennium in their natural bodies, the short answer is Zechariah 14:16.

    This is the response from you concerning the answer I sent last night:
    Hi Shane Shaddix,

    Thanks for your comment! It has been approved. To view the post, look at the link below.

    /#comment-486980

    Do not reply to this email address, you will not receive a response.

  19. Shane Shaddix

    I’m sorry, I couldn’t find the comment to which you refer.

    Another question. Does Zechariah 14:16 refer to believers or unbelievers who will not have been resurrected at the end of the tribulation? Matthew 25:31-36 distinctly says the goats (unbelievers) shall be barred from the Millennial age of peace on earth.

  20. Shane Shaddix says:

    You wrote:

    Matthew 24:36 and 42 cannot possibly be used as proof texts of the imminence of the Rapture because it has absolutely nothing to do with the Rapture. Like you, many Christians believe that when the word “elect” pops up in the Bible it always refers to born-again believers (the church). Isaiah 45:4 disproves your premise.

    “For Jacob my servant’s sake, and Israel mine elect, I have even called thee by thy name: I have surnamed thee, though thou hast not known me. (Isaiah 45:4).”

    As far as “Elect” in Matt. 24 referring to the nation of Israel in general, I need some biblical proof. Putting this verse in context it is referring to the believing Jews in Babylonian captivity in the days of King Cyrus. He was instrumental in facilitating the rebuilding of the temple in the days of Ezra. The Jews that surrendered to Babylon were those that hearkened unto the voice of God as spoken by Jeremiah the prophet. The unbelieving Jews resisted and were destroyed or fled to Egypt and were destroyed. Once again “elect” refers to believers whether Jew or Gentile by nature. Elect here are called “servants”. The lost are not servants of the most high King. God’s people serve him. Read Jeremiah again and see Who went to Babylon.

    I think the law of first mention might be helpful here. The first mention of “elect” in Is. 42:1 without a doubt refers to our Lord. Hence those in Christ are elect and those not in Christ are not elect. Peter clearly defines elect as “according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, and sanctification of the Holy Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ”.

    thanks and God bless

  21. Shane Shaddix says:

    I will try to re answer concerning natural bodied people populating the millennium and Zech 14 when i can get some uninterrupted time. i need maybe an hour. maybe late tonight.

  22. Shane Shaddix says:

    correction on my post about elect. That would be “through sanctification of the Spirit”

  23. Shane Shaddix says:

    OK Tom. here we go.

    Before getting started, I would ask you to forgive me if if have falsely accused. Let me give a defense for my misunderstanding, Please!
    You Wrote:
    “Turn, O backsliding children, saith the LORD; for I am married unto you: . . .” (Jeremiah 3:14)

    Notice the emphatic “I am married unto you.” Therefore, it cannot be Jesus to whom this passage refers. His marriage to his Bride will only be consummated subsequent to the Pre-tribulation Rapture and the Bema Throne judgment of the Bride. Jesus cannot possibly have two wives. That would have made Him a polygamist.

    Let’s go over some basics first, shall we, just to be sure we are on the same page, so to speak.
    Matt. 1:19 Clearly shows that Joseph was Mary’s HUSBAND before they “came together” as vs. 18 puts it. They were “espoused” which made them husband and wife. Vs. 20. The angel charged Joseph “fear not to take unto thee Mary thy WIFE” So we see that though there was no consummation, they were husband and wife. Vs. 25 “and knew her not”
    Notice our Lord’s words in Matt.19:9 “And I say unto you, whosoever shall put away his WIFE except it be for FORNICATION”. Why did our Lord use the word Fornication here instead of adultery which he uses in the same verse? Because if the wife commits fornication but not adultery it would be during the espousal or betrothal period before husband and wife were JOINED together or KNEW each other or BECAME ONE FLESH. Wherefore contrary to popular church teaching today ADULTERY is not biblical cause for divorce but it is cause for repentance and forgiveness. Now if Jesus is Jehovah as he claimed in Matt. 15:9, and the LORD (Jehovah) said to Believing, though backsliding, Israel that “I am married unto you” notice He calls them “children”, and this is a different wife than the bride of Christ, then Jesus has two wives, or Jesus is not Jehovah, or the wife of Jehovah and the bride of Christ are the same. I see no other options so I choose the only one that makes sense, and that is that we are graffed into something that already existed. God payed a Dowry for his bride, and it was himself. Gen. 22:8 “my son God will provide HIMSELF a lamb for a burnt offering”. promises to Israel were conditional upon belief. Hebrews chapter three makes that clear.”So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief.” vs. 19. See Hebrews 4:2 “For unto us(new testament believers) was THE gospel preached as well as unto them (unbelieving Israel): but the WORD preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.” So we see from this verse several things. There is one gospel, “THE gospel” and we also see that the Gospel is “the WORD”. So we see Israel had the gospel and some believed, Heb. 3:16 “for some, when they had heard, did provoke, howbeit not all that came out of Egypt by Moses.” but some didn’t just as it is today. In church today some believe and some don’t. Israel was no different. God calls them his people in general as he does the church but he knows who truly is His. There were two that believed, Joshua and Caleb and they did enter in though 40 years later. So what’s my point here. Glad you asked. As I said before so say I now again, There is one church, one house, one bride, one kingdom; made up of both Jew and Gentile believers and before you accuse me of replacement theology let me say, I don’t believe we are in “the church age”, we are in “a church age”, the “new testament church age” as per Paul Eph. 3:21. The church has been throughout all ages! The mystery in Eph. 3:3 is not the church, but “That the gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel.” That my friend is the mystery of Ephesians 3. Just what it says. God is the same today, yesterday, and forever. There is no variableness nor shadow of tuning in Him. Wow that’s good preaching right there.
    sorry I got a little happy. By the way, What is the “world without end” in Eph. 3:21? It’s the church. It’s the kingdom. Jesus Christ is King of kings and LORD of lords. One day this world will only be the saved. Hence the parable of the wheat and tares or sheep and goats. Now back to my apology, please forgive me if I wrongly accused. You truly have my sincerest apology.

    Now to answer the question about natural bodied people populating the millennium.

    Zechariah 14:16 has the answer, but first let’s start with Zech. 2:11. I believe this is the consummation. Notice the word “joined” and compare to Eph. 5:31-32. included vs. 32 because obviously He gives the physical relationship of husband and wife to illustrate Christ and the church.

    Now Zech. 14:16. Compare verse 2 of this chapter to Psalms 83. When then nations come against Israel during the time of Jacob’s trouble, which by the way nowhere does the bible limit it to Israel. Read Rev. 12:17. The woman is Israel and the remnant of her seed is the church,(believers).Compare the description of them to the description of the martyrs in Rev. 6:9 If Matthew 24 isn’t to the church then what in gospels is. is Matt 28:19-20 ? And if so then did not our Lord say “teaching them to observe ALL things whatsoever I have commanded you.”? And what about Hebrews 1:1 and 2? “hath in these last days spoken unto US by his Son”

    So as I was saying Psalms 83 takes place at the end of the “great tribulation” which means great in SCOPE “hated of all nations” Mt.24:9 “hated of all men” Mk. 13:13, not SEVERITY for once they kill us they “have no more that they can do”, Lk. 12:4.
    So we see that this will be a time of great persecution against Jews and Christians, “and except those days should be shortened, no flesh should be saved, but for the elect’s sake those days are shortened.” Mt. 24:22 If he didn’t shorten those days there would be no Christians left to rapture and no Jews left to look upon Him whom they have pierced. He tells how those days are shortened vs. 29. He turns out the lights. Remember from Rev. 6:12 there is also a great earthquake before or along with the lights going out. that means no electrical light and eventually all generators will fail, and according to Bildad in Job 18:5-6, if his witness is trustworthy, there will be no fire light. Hence, no light, no tribulation. The day of the Lord begins with darkness as does every day with the Lord, “and the EVENING and the MORNING were the first DAY” “the earth was without form and void and DARKNESS covered the face of the deep and God said let there be LIGHT”.
    So the day of the Lord begins with darkness then the SUN of Righteousness shall arise with healing in His wings. Mal. 4:2. The SUN comes at the darkest hour. This happens when the heaven departs, the heavens pass away, the heaven opens, and the heavens are rent. Rev. 6:14, II Pet. 3:10, Rev. 19:11, Is. 64:1, respectively. Oh yeah and the Heavens be no more, Job 14:12. Now that you see that The day of the Lord begins with darkness , read I Cor. 4:5, Col. 1:13, and I Pet. 2:9 and see if they don’t ring with new meaning.

    At this point the saints go to eternity, which is the habitation og God, Is.57:15 and notice who He inhabits eternity with. In eternity we are judged because judgement first begins in the house of God. Then we find rest on our beds that our Lord has prepared for us. John 14:3 and Psalms 149:5, and Heb. 4:9. So after judgement and rest we are fitted for battle Ps. 149:6, and Rev. 19:14. At which point we return to earth with our Lord to mete out his judgement and wrath and to intervene on behalf of the Jews who are besieged as Ps. 83 and Rev. 19:19 portrays.

    Now if your head hasn’t exploded yet then put your helmet on cause it is going to be quite different than dispensational teaching, but it will be scripture.

    Matt. 13 The angels are the reapers. We the saints of God are the reapers. Jude 14-15, and Daniel 7:22,26, and 27. During this time men ill still have oppurtunity to repent and be saved, both Jew and Gentile. those who are saved of the Gentiles at this time are those of Zech. 14:16. Those Jews who are saved at this time when they look on him whom they have pierced, will also enter the millennial kingdom in their natural bodies. Though they made it to the kingdom they will not rule and reign with Christ for this is reserved to those in the first resurrection, Rev.20:4-6. Notice that this resurrection includes those brethren referred to in seal 5. Compare 20:4 to 6:9.

    The time for men to repent during the outpouring of God’s wrath expires at the end of the sixth trumpet. compare Rev. 9:13,20-21 and 10:6-7

    Now if you don’t believe the saints are the angels that pour out God’s wrath, consider the two angels that shew John two women. The one in Rev. 19:10 shewed John the great whore 17:1, and the one in Rev. 22:9 shews John the bride, the Lamb’s wife, 21:9. Notice that both angels are of those that have the seven vials, full of the seven last plagues “for in them is filled up the wrath of God” 15:1. And also notice that both are brethren. 19:10 and 22:9 .

    And so we see how the millennial kingdom will be populated with natural bodied believers.

    Tom, you digest this and will correspond later. It’s late and I’m tired.

    Goodnight and God bless.

    Shane

  24. Shane Shaddix

    Indeed, there will be saints who shall have come to repentance and faith in Jesus Christ during the tribulation, and who are going to enter the Millennial in their natural bodies. However, if you were correct in saying that only a single resurrection occurs at the end of the tribulation, then you cannot exclude those believers from the resurrection. Fact is that the rapture per se says, “For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.” 

    “For we say this to you by the Lord’s [own] word, that we who are still alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will in no way precede [into His presence] those [believers] who have fallen asleep [in death].” (1 Thess 4:15 AMP).

    If, as you maintain, that believing Jews and Gentiles who come to faith in Christ during the tribulation are one body, then you cannot possibly divide them into resurrected and non-resurrected believers. That’s precisely why the rapture cannot take place at the end of the tribulation. You will have to divide the living (natural bodied believers) from the resurrected believers, which, I may add, is what the false teachers had done in 1 Thessalonians 4.

    Your tactic to try and impress me with your eisegesis of so many Bible passages isn’t working because you are using them totally out of context.

  25. Shane Shaddix

    I really think you should make a jolly good effort to read your Bible more carefully before you comment here again, lest you slip up as you’ve done here in this comment. Firstly, it is rather interesting that you should mention King Cyrus. You noted that the lost are not servants of the most high King. God’s people serve him. The truth is that God chose King Cyrus to serve him as his “shepherd” and “anointed.” Yet, God said of Cyrus that he did not know him. Cyrus was a pagan king, who did not wittingly serve God. He did not even know God. Yet He was still used by God as His minister (servant).

    And in case you disagree (as usual), let me take you to Jeremiah 28 where God says that King Nebuchadnezzar, also a pagan king, was his servant. (Jeremiah 25:8-9). All rulers on earth are God’s servants, and guess what? Most, if not all of them, are unbelievers. (Romans 12:17-13:6).

    Judas Iscariot, like all the other disciples, was chosen by Jesus to serve Him and to do all the miracles He commanded the others to perform. I dare you to tell me that he was saved.

    Please stop wasting my time.

  26. Hi Robbie. You posted a comment in response to Shane Shaddix. Something must have gone wrong. I approved it but it doesn’t show. We will have to wait for Deborah to fix the problem because I don’t know how. In the meantime, please post your comment again.

  27. I have no idea what happened to your comment Robbie, I’ve looked everywhere. Can you please re-comment.

  28. Robbie says:

    Hi Tom/Debbie

    What I wanted to know from Shane Shaddix…
    – Is he a pastor at Imago Dei Baptist Church?
    – Did he assist Daniel Akin (seemingly his protege) in updating Danny Akin’s theological library?

    The library update refers to the following persons writings and sermons as “guide lines” or general references.
    To name a few – David Pratt, John Macarthur, RC Sproul, Calvin, C H Spurgeon, et al…

    Does he endorse those as “guides”?

    If no… I humbly apologise for mixing him up with the wrong squad.

    If yes … It explains a lot.

  29. Hi Robbie. Thank you for your prompt response. Hopefully, we shall hear from Shane soon. However, I doubt it because he hasn’t responded to any of my most recent comments. He’s usually very quick to refute me. If he is knee deep into Calvinism his views on God’s sovereignty is very bleak, considering the fact that he believes God can only use saints to serve Him and not unbelievers.

  30. Shane Shaddix says:

    Tom,

    I haven’t posted a comment lately because of other responsibilities. I am somewhat unsure if I should continue corresponding with you, seeing how you so kindly asked me to stop wasting your time, but then much to my surprise, I saw that you hoped to hear from me, so I hope this post is welcomed.

    I must say first of all, Tom, that you are entirely correct concerning the lost being servants of the most high King. Our Lord can and does use whoever he wills. Thank you much for the correction.
    Having said that it doesn’t change the fact that it was believing Jews that went to Babylon. The plain reading Of Jeremiah sure conveys such.

    Robbie, To answer your question, I am the pastor of GROUND OF TRUTH bible fellowship in Tomball, Tx. I an not affiliated with the church you mentioned nor the library you mentioned.
    I have read some of the works of those you mentioned save David Pratt. I do not hold to Calvinism as taught today. I believe John Calvin would change his name if he were alive today.
    Seems Calvinist have taken his teachings to a place where they somewhat vaguely resemble his teachings. From my readings of Spurgeon, I find him definitely not a candidate for today’s Calvinism. My conclusion of Spurgeon, though I am no authority, for I have not read all his writings, I sense he did not hold to LIMITED ATONEMENT and rightfully so. I do think a student of the bible could glean some things from Calvin and Spurgeon but I am no fan of Macarthur or Sproul. The last work I read of Sproul was straight from the mind of Sproul for it had very little if any scripture in it. Not even references.

    Tom the resurrection occurs at the end of the great tribulation after the lights go out then at some point during the darknness the heavens depart then the resurrection takes place. Then the wrath of God begins during which many will come to faith in Christ and yes including many Jews. For scriptural support read attentively my last post.
    The tribulation and the wrath of God are two different things. Read Rev. 12 especially Rev. 12:12 and Rev. 12:16-17. Read also Rev. 13:7 and compare to Daniel 7:21-22 and Daniel 8:24.
    Now if you could explain to me how Job 14:12 and II Thes. 2:1-4 support a pre-trib rapture?

    Tom, I hope you read my last post attentively considering the scriptures I listed. Though I may have blundered on the sevant thing please don’t discount the entire post for I put much thought into answering your question about natural bodied saints in the millenium.

    Thanks for the dialogue and good night,
    Shane

  31. My rebuke, that you are wasting my time, stems from your dogged refusal to admit your errors. But since you now have readily admitted your mistake with regard to the servant issue, you are no longer wasting my time – uh, maybe still just a little bit with your resurrection story.

    The tribulation is not the wrath of God? Really? You must be kidding me. Who opens the very first seal and subsequently six more to usher in the seven-year tribulation on earth – Satan and Antichrist? Judgment and wrath are terms used in tandem and are equal in their meaning. Like most other Post-tribs you say that the tribulation is Satan’s and Antichrist’s wrath. Since when did God the Father give them the authority to judge in wrath? God gave his Son the authority to judge in his wrath (John 5:27) and NOT to Satan and Antichrist. That’s blasphemy. At any rate, Satan and Antichrist wrath is always aimed at believers alone and not their followers. In fact, their 666 mark will enable their followers to survive during the tribulation for some time. In fact, their followers will worship Satan’s Antichrist as being Christ. What kind of judgment is that on the part of Satan and his Anticherist? Judgment will be meted out upon the entire world and all nations, which means it is God’s wrath and NOT Satan’s and his Antichrist’s wrath.

    Once again, if the rapture takes place simultaneously with Christ’s Second Advent, it follows that the dead in Christ (the saints who are going to be killed by Antichrist during the tribulation) must rise first, and then the saints who are still alive must be raised to eternal life in the twinkling of an eye. I have already pointed out that you cannot divide the Body of Christ into one section who are going to be changed from their corruptible to their incorruptible bodies and another section that is going to remain in their natural bodies to populate the Millennium. If a single resurrection at the end of the tribulation were true, we would have to remove 1 Thessalonians 4:15 from our Bibles. That’s one of the main reasons why the rapture cannot possibly occur at the end of the tribulation.

    Job 14:12 does not support or even teach a pre-trib rapture or the timing of any kind of rapture, including the post-trib rapture. Job is not referring to the resurrection as per se a resurrection of a new body. He laments the fact that when a man dies, he cannot return to his original natural body, not in a million years, not even until the heavens are no more. In other words, NEVER. Barnes says:

    “The heavens are the most permanent and enduring objects of which we have any knowledge, and are, therefore, used to denote permanency and eternity; see Psalm 89:36-37. This verse, therefore, is simply a solemn declaration of the belief of Job that when man dies, he dies to live no more on the earth. Of the truth of this, no one can doubt – and the truth is as important and affecting as it is undoubted. If man could come back again, life would be a different thing. If he could revisit the earth to repair the evils of a wicked life, to repent of his errors, to make amends for his faults, and to make preparation for a future world, it would be a different thing to live, and a different thing to die. But when he travels over the road of life, he treads a path which is not to be traversed again. When he neglects an opportunity to do good, it cannot be recalled. When he commits an offence, he cannot come back to repair the evil. He falls, and dies, and lives no more.”

    Therefore, the purpose of Job 14:12 is to debunk the doctrine of reincarnation and NOT to substantiate the resurrection and its timing.

    Moreover, Job could not have known anything about the rapture because the doctrine was kept hidden by God from the church until he revealed it to Paul. That’s why Paul called it a mystery. I am sorry, but your once-off universal resurrection and rapture at the end of the tribulation fall flat, time and again. However, I am very pleased to hear that you are not into the cult of Calvinism.

  32. Shane Shaddix says:

    Wow Tom. You might want to read our Lord’s commentary on Job instead of Barnes. See Job 42:7-8. Since when is Barnes the authority. I thought this was a bible discussion. I would prefer to keep it bible.
    You can wrest Job’s words into whatever you wish. I never said Job spoke about the rapture. He clearly spoke about the resurrection Which must precede the rapture for “the dead in Christ shall rise first”. He clearly says the resurrection will NOT take place “till the heavens be no more”. If that’s not plain enough english that we are at an impass here. If You are going going to spiritualise or allegoricalise every scriptural proof I use then I have no arguments for You. All I have is the plain reading of the text. Rev. 6:10 makes it clear that God’s vengence has not yet been poured out. Rev. 6:16-17 clearly in english conveys that God’s wrath shows up at the end of the sixth seal.

    HE THAT HATH AN EAR TO HEAR, LET HIM HEAR.

    In love and for Christ’s sake,

    Shane

  33. Believe as thy wilt. You clearly do not have an ear to hear. I am done with you. Please do not comment here again.

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