How to Sweep the Truth under the Carpet the Stephan Joubert Way

Sweeping Truth under the carpetSweeping the Truth under the Carpet

For God’s [holy] wrath and indignation are revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who in their wickedness repress and hinder the truth and make it inoperative. (Romans 1:18)

Many Christians the world over expected something of eschatological proportions to happen on 28th September 2015 when a complete moon eclipse (a so-called blood moon) appeared in the sky. As usual, nothing happened. But wait a sec., something of disproportionate value did actually happen . . . Look, look, can you believe it, it is Doug of “The King of the Queens” soapy sweeping the truth under a carpet, and “nogal” on a blood moon.

Folks, this is really something out of the ordinary. I just received a report that Stephan Joubert has decided to stop sweeping the truth under the carpet and to prove his resolve he decided to distance himself from Doug, his wife and their parents of “The King of the Queens” soapy who habitually sweep the truth under the carpet. Now, if this is not something bigger and brighter than any other eschatological event on the calendar, then I don’t know what is.

In one of his most recent articles, under the title “Get Serious,” on his ekerk site (28 September 2015 on Blood Moon Day), Stephan Joubert voiced his disgust with Doug and his family in the following way:

In one episode of an older American soapy, “The King of the Queens,” Doug and his wife visit his parents. They are celebrating their dog Rocky’s 28th birthday. While Doug wonders how Rocky managed to become so old, Doug’s parents confess that they have repeatedly replaced Rocky with a dog that looked exactly like the first Rocky. In fact, this Rocky was already Rocky IV. Then his mother adds: “But we don’t talk about such unpleasant or uncomfortable things.”

On this his wife asks: “What do you do with the truth, then?”

“We sweep it under the carpet where it belongs!” Doug’s mother responds. To reach a compromise, they all decided there is but one Rocky and he is 28 years old.

Then our dear friend Stephan brings this little story closer to home when he says:

In our day Biblical truths are swept unceremoniously under the carpet. Some people do not like “uncomfortable truths” or “inconvenient truths.” The Gospel must fall softly on their ears. No one should be offended. That’s why there are currently so many religious carpets everywhere, under which the truth is hidden.

What a lovely little story! It typifies today’s false teachers to the hilt. False teachers have a sinister way to stifle or surpress the truth while they piously claim to be champions of it. Stephan Joubert seems to have mastered the art to stand firm in favour of the truth but at the same time “unceremoniously” sweeps vital Bible truths under the carpet. Nonetheless, don’t believe me. Check out the things Stephan Joubert has said in the not too distant past and decide for yourself whether he is sweeping the truth under the carpet or not. To make it easy for you I decided to do it in table form. The left column belongs to Stephan Joubert and the right to the Bible. Let’s begin with Stephan Joubert’s definition of truth.

“And he (Rob Bell) says you should engage the culture. You should go and listen to the Buddhists. So, go listen to what those guys are saying. Then Christians faint, because they do not listen properly to what Rob Bell is saying. He is not saying become like them, but go and read their stuff. Then you will understand why they are so important. They may also have truth. Truth is not only found in Christianity. You can find truth in Judaism. You can find truth in atheism. You can find truth by whoever. God’s general revelation is a bit wider, but you say ‘Jesus is Lord’. That is what you are aiming at with such a movement.” (1)

[Thomas says: If the Word of God, “According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue: (2 Peter 1:3), is not sufficient for you, then by all means go to Buddhism, Judaism, atheism and whatever other religion to your taste, but don’t expect God to allow you entrance into his Kingdom. You are lost).

Stephan Joubert giving cup of cold water


Jesus (the false one) and Buddha serving tea (or is it a cup of cold water or coffee which the Emergent fraternity love so much to serve?). Some of the folk to whom I sent a link to my article “Incarnational Spirituality” invited me to have coffee with them. Apparently, it resembles a kind of peace pipe the American Indians smoke when they want to build good relationships.

Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. (John 14:6).

Judaism, Buddhism, atheism, or whatever religion other than Christianity, deny that Jesus Christ is the only way to God the Father. Allow me to remind Stephan Joubert what the truth is.

He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him. (John 3:36).

So, in short, God’s wrath abides on Judaism, Buddhism and atheism and yet Stephan Joubert hails them as truth-bearers. This is Waco, or is it Whacko, all over again?

Joubert says:

“Irrelevance wins when the Bible is made softer than what the Lord intended it to be. Even worse, in these environments people are indiscriminately losing their souls. Wait, before you misunderstand me, I do not plead for an unloving way to live out the Gospel. We may not steamroller over people with our ‘straightforward’ words. However, on the other hand we should not be people pleasers with an ‘excuse-me-for-living-for-Jesus’ attitude.”

Oops, Sorry Stephan, we shouldn’t quote unloving verses like John 3:36 to people. It is totally wrong to steamroller them with God’s truth, as you said. Rather refer them to Judaism, Buddhism and atheism because they too cradle the truth in their Christ-rejecting bosoms and probably in a softer and more serene tone than Paul of Tarsus who said:

But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed. (Galatians 1:8-9).

The irony is that Joubert is doing the exact opposite when he compromisingly says there is as much truth in Judaism, Buddhism, and even atheism as there is in Christianity. He piously voices his concern about people who are indiscriminately losing their souls but indiscriminately refers them to Buddhism, Judaism, atheism and just about any other religious movement to seek God’s wider revelation because they too cater for God’s truth. Come on Stephan “Get Serious.”

Stephan Joubert says, “Jesus is Lord,” despite the alleged truths in Judaism, Buddhism and atheism. What does Jesus say?

Not everyone that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. (Matthew 7:21-23).

Stephan Joubert tries to defend himself by saying he made these statements a long time ago, as if that rectifies and straightens out his lies. What does the Word of God say?

For by your words you will be justified and acquitted, and by your words you will be condemned and sentenced. [no matter how long ago you said it]. (Matthew 12:37).

This is what Stephan Joubert’s works-orientated gospel looks like. He says:

“We are full-time stewards of Cod’s gifts which we have freely received. Freely give it away then! No, don’t just give stuff away, give yourself to others. Build relationships with those you serve. Become their friends. Remember: every person that you serve turns into a immediate friend of Jesus. Go one step further: see him or her as Jesus in disguise. Also know that every cent, every slice of bread, every meal, every cup of cold water, every prayer, every word of encouragement, every visit is an eternal investment in the kingdom of our Father. Not only will it impact on the life of at least one other person, but it will make heaven take special notice of you. God takes notice of the smallest deeds and words of kindness, as Jesus tells us in Matthew 10.” (2)

  If the enemies of Jesus Christ become his friend by simply becoming a friend of those who serve the needy in the giving of a cent, a slice of bread, a meal and a cup of cold water, then who needs Jesus and his cross?

No one can become a friend of Jesus unless he or she receives the Spirit of God at conversion. They may need a cup of cold water, a slice of bread or a meal sometimes but what they truly need is the Living Water of the Holy Spirit. (John 4:7-42).

You can give the needy and disadvantaged as many cups of cold water, slices of bread and meals as much as you like, it will benefit them absolutely nothing unless you also give them the truth as we find it in the Bible. It is the truth in the Bible that sets people free and not what you give them.

Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. (Romans 8:9b).

Yet, Stephan Joubert sweeps this truth unceremoniously under the carpet and says that every disadvantaged person you serve is Jesus in disguise (aka Mother Teresa).

And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, and have not charity (agapeÌ„), it profiteth me nothing. Charity suffereth long, and is kind; charity envieth not; charity vaunteth not itself, is not puffed up, Doth not behave itself unseemly, seeketh not her own, is not easily provoked, thinketh no evil; Rejoiceth not in iniquity, but rejoiceth in the truth; (1 Corinthians 13:3-6). [and not unceremoniously sweep it under the carper as Stephan Joubert has been doing it for many years.).

Benefactors who rejoice in the truth and do not sweep it under the carpet will receive their due reward from God but those benefactors who do not rejoice in the truth and do their good works before men to be seen and to be lauded for their philanthropic works, are severely rebuked (Matthew 6:1-4). Charity (godly love) is more concerned about the truth and how it can set free the captives than the mere giving of a cent, a slice of bread, a meal and a cup of cold water.

At any rate, the giving of a cup of cold water and the subsequent reward given to the benefactor applies to the prophets of God who preach the unadulterated Gospel of Jesus Christ and not every Tom, Dick and Harry. By all means, give the false teachers a cup of cold water if and when they are thirsty but don’t expect God to grant you a prophet’s reward. To receive a prophet of God who proclaims the unadulterated Gospel of Jesus Christ is tantamount to receiving Jesus. Giving a cup of cold water to a false prophets [like Rob Bell, Leonard Sweet, Richard Rohr, Thomas Keating, Morton Kelsey, Matthew Fox, and the likes] is tantamount to receiving the father of lies (John 8:44). Consequently, anyone who gives a false prophet a cup of cold water will receive the same reward as the false prophet which is the following:

Notwithstanding I have a few things against thee, because thou sufferest that woman Jezebel, which calleth herself a prophetess, to teach and to seduce my servants to commit [spiritual] fornication, and to eat things sacrificed unto idols. And I gave her space to repent of her fornication; and she repented not. Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit [spiritual] adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds. And I will kill her children [her followers] with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works. (Revelation 2:20-23).

“The other day at a Bible school I did at a church in Pretoria, I asked the people to play a little game with me. And the game was about, let’s for a moment say to ourselves, we only have the book of Proverbs in the Old Testament. What would our spirituality look like? And it was like a shocking game for us all, because you won’t find in the book of Proverbs anything about the cult, cultus (sic). There is no temple; there is no religious personnel; there is no holy times or holy foods or holy stuff. There is only one life and it is the real life. There is only this life where I live and God is immediately in this life or not. And it is the wise person, and not the fool who will be able to see where God is and where God is going. It is a way of life. It is not in propositions. Secondly, you don’t find the will of God like many people who lived their lives in other stories. In the book of Proverbs, you won’t find anything about prophecies, dreams, revelations, getting like some people say in church, getting scripture. You know this thing? ‘I just got Scripture.’ Another lady, I have told this story, another lady the other day said to me: ‘You know, I stand on Scripture.’ I said: ‘Ma’am, that is great. Get off and read it. It is better.”‘ (3)

Standing on the Bible

  All scripture [and not only the Book of Proverbs] is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works. (2 Timothy 3:16-17).

If, as 2 Timothy 3:16-17 says, the entire Word of God – from Genesis to Revelation – was given for doctrine, for reproof, for correction and for instruction in righteousness [and not only the Book of Proverbs], so that the man of God and the followers of Christ may be perfect and thoroughly equipped unto all good works, then Stephan Joubert has thoroughly disqualified himself from being a do-gooder.  You cannot base your entire life on one book in the Bible and then expect God to use you unto good works. Stephan Joubert’s little games are thoroughly dangerous.

Stephan Joubert’s statement that “you won’t find anything about prophecies, dreams, revelations, getting like some people say in church, getting Scripture” is the typical response of a false teacher. Jesus, whom Joubert claims to follow, said:

And ye have not his word abiding in you: for whom he hath sent, him ye believe not. Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they [including Proverbs] are they which testify of me. And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life. (John 5:38-40).

To say that the Book of Proverbs is only a guide to show us how we should live this life, is to deny what Jesus said in the above quote. In essence, it tells us that we may try as much as we like to live up to God’s standards, we will always fail. Why? Because our very best works are as filthy rags. (Isaiah 64:6). Therefore, the instructions (laws) given in Proverbs are also merely a schoolmaster to bring us to Christ and not primarily a guide to show us how we should live this life and to be able to see where God is and where He is going.

Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster. (Galatians 3:24-25).

And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book. He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus. The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all. Amen. (Revelation 22:19-21).

“If you were born and raised an Israelite, you knew about holy – unholy, clean – unclean, pure – impure, in – out, us – them. This is the priestly story. It is all about purity. It is all about who is in and who is out.

The major way of teaching that Jesus opts for, and these are typical aphorisms that He would use, is not purity – impurity, who is in – who is out, who is saved, who is not. The major form of teaching that Jesus would use would be wisdom.” (3)

Thomas says: Stephan Joubert tries his level best to divorce wisdom from holiness and sanctity. The following verses debunk his anti-biblical ranting against holiness.

And thou shalt speak unto all that are wise hearted, whom I have filled with the spirit of wisdom, that they may make Aaron’s garments  to consecrate him, that he may minister unto me in the priest’s office. (Exodus 28:3)

But it is from Him that you are in Christ Jesus, who became to us wisdom from God [revealing His plan of salvation], and righteousness [making us acceptable to God], and sanctification [making us holy and setting us apart for God], and redemption [providing our ransom from the penalty for sin], (1 Cor 1:30)

  According to Joubert, Jesus never opted for the purity story in Leviticus which concerns itself with who is pure and who is not, who is in or who is not and who is saved and who is not but instead used the wisdom story in Proverbs? Really?

We learn from 1 Corinthians that the cross of Christ is the power and wisdom of God and every single offering in Leviticus (the purity story) was a shadow story of the cross. Therefore, we dare not separate the purity story from the wisdom story and smartly declare that Jesus chose the wisdom story rather than the purity story. To do this is to go beyond the depths of foolishness.

For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God. For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent. Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world? For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe. (1 Corinthians 1:18-21).

Allow me to quote what Jesus said about being in or out.

There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death. (Romans 8:1-2).

Those who are not IN Christ Jesus are already condemned.

“Traditionally the church has a very strong moral view on sin, with lists like dancing, drinking, gambling and so forth. Don’t tell people what is wrong. Live and show them what is right. It’s a move from the maintenance of rules to the practical living of a value system others fail to live out.” (5)

Thomas says: Scripture please, Stephan. Where in Scripture does it say that it is your way of life that shows people what is right and wrong (sin)? Is your lifestyle more powerful than God’s Holy  Spirit who was sent to convict the world of sin, righteousness and judgment? (John 16:7-8).

 How do you show people not to gamble? Do you go to a casino, hang around for a while, and perhaps visit the nearest Mugg and Bean in the Casino premises for a cup of coffee, to show that you don’t gamble, and then leave the others to continue their gambling? It’s not your lifestyle that convinces people of their sin. It’s the Holy Spirit who uses the Sword of God (the Word) and what’s more his Word lists more sins than the three Joubert enumerated.

This sounds more like the Pharisee who went up to the temple to pray and boasted that his pristine lifestyle was an example to those who failed to live up to God’s standard of living and haughtily thanked God for a life that was allegedly much better than the poor and wretched publican who stood praying nearby. This poor wretched sinner realized that his sins, which probably included transgressions like dancing, drinking, gambling and so forth, separated him from God and that he needed his forgiveness to live in a right relationship with him. Unlike the Pharisee who proudly detailed his wonderful works before God, the publican was so ashamed of his sins that he could not even lift his eyes heavenward. Instead he beat on his breast and cried out, “God, be merciful to me, a sinner.” Guess who went home justified? (Luke 18:10-14),

And Stephan Joubert dares to tell us he never sweeps the truth under the carpet? Really?

“Jesus came to the earth, and friends, make no mistake, He did not come to do battle with the devil. The devil is not that important. Jesus did not come to earth, as I read in a book the other day, to destroy the works of the devil. . .

Jesus came to bring the Kingdom of God. That’s what Jesus came to do, to proclaim his Father’s Kingdom; to win back for his Father the Kingdom that has declined into sin and death.” (6)

 To what book is Stephan Joubert  referring? Hasn;t he read the following passage in God’s Book ye t?

He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. (1 John 3:8).

So, have you noticed how Joubert vilifies the cross of Jesus Christ? It was on the cross where Jesus “spoiled principalities and powers [and] made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.” (Colossians 2:15). Had He not destroyed the works of the devil and his evil angels on the cross none of us would ever have been allowed to enter into God’s Kingdom. He is the Door to God’s Kingdom but He first had to destroy the works of the devil before we could enter through Him into God’s Kingdom.

Is Stephan Joubert saved? I doubt it, or at least he is not sure whether he is in or out.

Sweeping Truth under the carpet2

Wow! Look . . . look!! It wasn’t Doug of “The King of the Queens” soapy who swept the truth under the carpet on blood moon day. It’s . . . it’s . . . can you believe it . . . ladies and gentlemen? It’s our beloved false prophet of South Africa, Stephan Joubert. And he has been telling us all along that he never sweeps the truth under the carpet.

What is truth?

This was the question Pilate put to Jesus just after He explained to him why He had come to earth.

Thou sayest that I am a king. To this end was I born, and for this cause came I into the world, that I should bear witness unto the truth. Every one that is of the truth heareth my voice.  (Matthew 18:37).

Let’s turn this around a bit and use the negative of what He had said. Then the last part of the verse would read like this.

“Everyone that is not of the truth does not hear my voice but the voice of another.”

In fact Jesus once said:

Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that entereth not by the door into the sheepfold, but climbeth up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber. But he that entereth in by the door is the shepherd of the sheep. To him the porter openeth; and the sheep hear his voice: and he calleth his own sheep by name, and leadeth them out. And when he putteth forth his own sheep, he goeth before them, and the sheep follow him: for they know his voice. And a stranger will they not follow, but will flee from him: for they know not the voice of strangers. (John 10:1-5)

Having seen and heard how Stephan Joubert brazenly distorts vital Bible truths, one must inevitably ask the question: Does He know the Good Shepherd’s voice and is he not following a stranger while thinking and believing that he is following Jesus Christ who is the essence of God’s truth? It is impossible to lay claim to discipleship and being a follower of Jesus when you distort his truth. We’ve seen in the many quotes from Stephan Joubert’s own lips how he constantly and for many years has distorted and even denied God’s truth. I mean, how on earth can he flatly deny that Jesus Christ came to the world to destroy the works of the devil when 1 John 3:8 emphatically states that He did indeed come to the world to destroy the works of the devil? It is tantamount to saying that Jesus did not come to the earth to seek and to save sinners.

Yet Stephan Joubert categorically declares that he is a champion of God’s truth. Listen to his heartrending tribute to himself on how he fights for the truth.

I have noticed that the difference between people who lovingly live out the truth and those who think they are in the Lord’s secret service, may be summed up in one word: urgency! More precisely, people who realize they are full-time followers of Jesus have a holy urgency in their hearts.  It makes them choose a short cut when going after their Lord. They continually walk with Him in the direction of new relationships and healing deeds.

Let’s pause here for a moment. What does Joubert mean? Well, he is simply taking a huge swipe at those who expose his abominable lies in public. Moreover, as we’ve seen earlier, truth to him – and it corresponds 100% with the general teaching of the Emergent Church fraternity – does not consist of a bunch of propositions articulated in biblical doctrines, dogmas and commandments. These things allegedly tarnish and even destroy healthy relationships (Matthew 10:34-36). No, Joubert’s rendition of truth is much more pragmatic, inclusive, accessible and manageable. All you need to do, is to give someone a cup of cold water, a slice of bread or a meal to make them a friend of Jesus. This is incarnational spirituality (an occult way to make the world a better place) at its very best.

Like wisdom truth is acquired via a lifelong spiritual journey and not in propositions, according to Stephan Joubert. It’s what you do for God in the form of good deeds for others that enlightens you to the truth. Henri Nouwen (1932-1996), the deceased Gay Roman Catholic priest whom Stephan Joubert lauds as a great teacher, describes this spiritual journey as follows in his book Sabbatical Journey, page 52:

Today I personally believe that while Jesus came to open the door to God’s house, all human beings can walk through that door, whether they know about Jesus or not. Today I see it as my call to help every person claim his or her own way to God. (6)

Hitler LiesWhat happened to the only Way to God the Father, who is Jesus Christ? Joubert’s endorsement of Henri Nouwen makes him guilty of the following indictment in Scripture.

Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son. If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed: For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds. (2 John 1:9-11).

Is Stephan Joubert someone who does not sweep the truth of God under the carpet? I think he’s one of the best under-the-carpet-sweepers of God’s truth in the country, and perhaps even in the entire world, today. There are many more quotes from Joubert’s lips that I can give here but I think those that I have quoted in this article is enough to prove that Joubert’s truth is not God’s truth. In fact, they are doctrines of devils.

Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils; Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron. (1 Timothy 4:1-2).

  1. From a sermon delivered on 1 March 2009 at the Kemptonkruin Dutch Reformed Church
  2. Posted on echurch, 2011 (has since been removed).
  3. Session 3: Being a radical pilgrim and prophet – Stephan Joubert, Mosaic Congress held at the Mosaic Church in Fairlands, Johannesburg (4-5 Sept. 2009)
  6. Henri Nouwen, Sabbatical Journey, p. 51, 1998 edition.
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Tom Lessing (Discerning the World)

Tom Lessing is the author of the above article. Discerning the World is an internet Christian Ministry based in Johannesburg South Africa. Tom Lessing and Deborah Ellish both own Discerning the World. For more information see the About this Website page below the comments section.

3 Responses

  1. Marthina says:

    Sjoe. Tom, ek het die afgelope week op julle webblad afgekom en ek is baie bly en dankbaar dat dit met my gebeur het. Die Bybel is vir my ook die Waarheid van begin tot einde. Maar die manier hoe jy deur middel van die Heilige Gees al hierdie vals profesiee kan uitken is GROOT. Baie dankie. En hou so aan…

  2. Hallo Marthina,

    Baie dankie vir jou “comment.” Mag die Heer jou ryklik toerus met wysheid en groot onderskeiding in hierdie laaste dae.

  3. Celia says:


    I would like to add the following Scripture to support that we are NOT to search for truth in other religions (Jesus IS the truth!). Deuteronomy 12:29-32 (NKJ) When the Lord your God cuts off from before you the nations which you go to dispossess, and you displace them and dwell in their land, 30 take heed to yourself that YOU ARE NOT ENSNARED TO FOLLOW THEM, after they are destroyed from before you, and that you DO NOT INQUIRE AFTER THEIR GODS, SAYING,’HOW DID THESE NATIONS SERVE THEIR GODS? I also will do likewise.’ You SHALL NOT WORSHIP THE LORD YOUR GOD IN THAT WAY; for every abomination to the LORD which He hates they have done to their gods;…

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