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Caught Up By Jesus Christ Or Caught By A False Christ

Caught Up By Jesus Christ Or Caught By A False Christ

Caught Up By Jesus Christ Or Caught By A False ChristThe Tribulation and the Rapture (being Caught up)

In some of his last words of the 1st Epistle to the (1 Thess 5:23) the apostle Paul prays, “And may the God of peace sanctify you completely, and may your whole spirit, and soul, and body be preserved blameless unto the Coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.” His teaching of the coming of Christ was imminent as he taught the church to be blameless in their body as well as the spirit anticipating his appearance.

In 1st Thessalonians chapter 5 Paul gave a contrast of believers and non-believers natures (1 Thess 5:5). The unsaved have a nature of darkness (they are of the night and darkness) they walk in darkness. Church saints have the nature of light (we are sons of the light, of the day) Christ and the Word is our light, so when we obey we are walking in the light. So we should not sleep as they do. Paul exhorts the believers to put on the breastplate of faith and love to live through the hard times. Also (1 Thess 5:8) “as a helmet, the hope of salvation.” The reason for this hope he explains is God has not appointed us “the Church” to wrath (1 Thess 5:9). He has already explained the resurrection in chapter 4 the teaching is now about the Day of the Lord (judgment). God has not appointed the Church to the Lord’s wrath. Instead the Church is appointed to obtain salvation, deliverance from that wrath (the tribulation) that is coming on the world culminating in Christ’s coming.

At the time of Y2K looming there were many prophecy watchers that thought this would be the downfall of Babylon (America?) that is destroyed in one hour in (Rev 18). Yet they also said that the Anti Christ will be known afterward. Clearly the anti-Christ is revealed earlier as the mark of the beast is issued (Rev 13),  Revelation, as well as Matthew 24 is basically sequential. To say (Rev 18) will take place in approximately the year 2000 would have put us right in the middle of the great tribulation now. I guess it wasn’t as disastrous as the Bible made it out to be. As we’ll see this can’t be accurate if we look at the judgments. In (Rev 16) the Mt.’s are removed as well as the Islands. Being in Hawaii now we shouldn’t be here for long. Well Y2k came and went without a tremor. Then it was the 9-11 terrorism that struck America’s shores and again those who think they know prophecy said this was Babylon that fell in day. Once again wearing egg on the face because they ran ahead of any true fulfillment. So many want to now fit 9-11 into some specific prophetic event.

(Rom 1:18-19)  “For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them.”   Because of unbeliever’s nature and relationship to the kingdom of darkness, they will experience the darkness and wrath of the Day of the Lord. By contrast, because of the believer’s nature and relationship to the kingdom of light, the Church will experience the coming hope, the blessed hope. The darkness and wrath period covers the entire 70th week that is withheld for the finale of mans government. The Church will be removed from earth before or around the 70th week beginning. It is the righteous that are taken, the Bride of Christ may have to endure some but not the full impact of the Wrath of God…God’s wrath are for those who do not repent, not the repentant.

The Biblical principle is that God will not judge the righteous with the unrighteous. He did it with Noah, he took out Lot out of Sodom, and He will do it for us.

In (1 Thess 5:4) Paul writes that the Church is removed before the day of darkness so that the Day of the Lord will not overtake them like a thief in the night. Since it initiates the judgment, God will remove the Church from the darkness not keep them through it.

The Thessalonians already had an understanding concerning the future Day of the Lord before Paul wrote 1 Thess 3 to them,but they were ignorant concerning the Rapture of the Church before receiving this letter (1 Thess 4:13-18). This indicates that the Rapture was not part of the subject of the Day of the Lord and therefore will be a different event from the Day of the Lord.

After Paul left Thessalonica some false teachers came in teaching a post-tribulational doctrine and stated that believers were now in the tribulation. That the day of God’s wrath was upon them, that they had missed the rapture, but Paul corrects this with the 2nd letter. If this were true certain signs would be present. The Thessalonians mistook their persecution as a sign of the tribulation, something we still make the mistake of doing today. Obviously Paul had taught the Thessalonians that the Rapture came first. Because if the day of the Lord had come they would be “shaken and troubled” this would come from either they being left behind or they misunderstood Paul. Instead they would have welcomed the Great Tribulation as a necessary component prior to the second coming. We can only conclude from this that Paul had taught a pre-tribulation rapture.

Notice that Paul states in no uncertain terms in 2 Thess 2:3 “let no one deceive you by ANY MEANS;  for that day will not come first unless the falling away (apostasy) comes first and the man of sin is revealed…”  This is what he said to look for as just one of many signs to know when the day of Christ (resurrection) is near. “He who restraineth” is taken out of the way and then the wicked one (false Messiah) is revealed along with his false kingdom which brings the tribulation, “God’s wrath” on a Christ rejecting world.

The tribulation we as Christians are currently experience comes from a fallen world under the governing of Satan. The Tribulation that is coming is a test on the whole world at the end of the age, that will come from God’s hand against sin.

Why is this Great Tribulation coming? The Scripture states several purposes, to test all who dwell upon the earth (Rev 3:10) that God might pour His wrath out upon the wicked (Rev 15:7), to make an end to wickedness and the wicked ones (Isa 13:9; Isa 24:19-20) this include both Jews and gentiles. Many seem to overlook that God is the source of judgment for the great tribulation on an unrepentant world not Satan.

To destroy those who destroyed the earth (Rev 11:18). After all this takes place God will resume reversing the affects of the destruction’s in the Millennium which will be a time where He will be present on the earth to rule and reign. For Israel, it is to break the will of the holy people and bring them to faith (Rom 11).The Bible teaches that the tribulation is to prepare Israel for her restoration and conversion.

Not one Old Testament passage on the tribulation refers to the church (Deut 4:29-30;  Jer 30:4-11; Dan 8:24-27;  Dan 12:1-2), the New Testament never speaks of the church in relation to the tribulation only Israel. This is why it is stated they keep the commandments and the testimony of Jesus . (Rev 12:17) “And the dragon was enraged with the woman, and he went to make war with the rest of her offspring (Israel), who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.” (Matt 13:30, Matt 39-42, Matt 48-50; Matt 24:15-31; Rev 4-18). Those Jew’s saved in the tribulation will be Torah observant ones that came to the knowledge of Christ being the messiah.

The Church is clearly mentioned and addressed in the book of Revelation prior to the tribulation (Rev 1-3). Jesus addresses the then current churches in Asia specifically, having them representative of all the churches throughout the ages. Immediately the next chapter (Rev 4) switches to the a door standing open a voice like a trumpet and the lord saying to John the apostle “ come up here “and I will show you things which must take place after this. The message of Jesus to the Philadelphia church, who are the faithful and true remnant in the last days will be kept from the hour of trial coming upon the whole earth. He said, ‘ and I have set before you an open door which no man can shut.” Now this door is opened in Heaven, and the voice is as a trumpet, “Come up here. “ This appears to be the Rapture of the Church in the Book of Revelation or at least in type. The trumpet in (1 Corinth 15:52) also gives the last call to the Church also saying, “Come up here.” I’m not saying this is definitely it, but very well could be.

After the tribulation runs its course the Church is mentioned again in chapters (1 Corinth 19-22). But through chapters (1 Corinth 6-18), which describe the tribulation period, the Church is not even mentioned once, as if she does not any longer exist. This begs an answer of where is the Church? Since in the chapters dealing with events prior to and after the tribulation she is mentioned and addressed. Outside the book of Revelation the scripture shows that any passage dealing with the tribulation the church is not mentioned. Those who find the church as a participant in the tribulation can only argue from silence. The book of Revelation shows Israel and the saints outside the church as participants in the judgments on earth. it is impossible for anyone to find a tribulation passage and to show that the church is a present along with Israel. Nowhere does the Book of Revelation speak about any divine preservation for the Church. The only divine preservation is for Israel and the 144,000 who are sealed with a mission. The saints mentioned are not church saints.

However there is a Church mentioned that does go through the tribulation. In (Rev 3:14-22) Jesus addresses the church in Laodicea. This church is rejected by the Lord and vomited out of His mouth because of their luke-warmness. This church goes into the entire 70th week because they think they are rich and have need of nothing, not even the Lord. The Laodicean church is not the true church but one that does not possess a true profession of faith. They are rejected by the Lord, and vomited out into the seventieth week. Yet the Lord calls individuals out of her.

The true church could not be present through the persecutions of the seventieth week and be lukewarm. The true church seems to be concluded with the Philadelphia church, which is removed from the earth before the tribulation begins according to the promise of Revelation 3:10.The false church which is left behind will become part of the one world religious system she is separated by the rapture.

1 Thess 1:9 mentions the wrath to come in the future. The believers are delivered from the future wrath against the world, just as in Noah’s day.

Jesus promises assurance to the church of Revelation 3:10  “Because you have kept the word of My perseverance, I also will keep you from the hour of testing, that hour which is about to come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell upon the earth. This testing will include “all power” and lying signs, wonders and miracles to deceive all who dwell on the earth.

There are “false Christ’s” that are found working in the tribulation (Matt 24:24; Mark 13:22). The false Christ does not deny the existence of Christ but affirm that they are Christ; a substitute. They claim his authority his anointing as Christ and go around doing miracles. Their ministry is specifically to deceive the elect (if possible).

There are approximately 8 mysteries in the New Testament. A mystery is something that was totally unrevealed in the Old Testament, which is now to be revealed in the New Testament. For something to really qualify as a New Testament mystery, it must be something that has not been revealed anywhere in the Old Testament.

When the disciples on the mount of Olives asked the Lord about His coming and the end of the age they knew nothing of the church age, it was still a mystery to be revealed (Eph 3:5). This would be revealed after the Holy Spirit was given and the church was officially started.

(Col 1:26) speaks of a present mystery has now has been manifested to his saints. that it was unrevealed in the Old Testament and revealed for the first time in the New Testament of Christ being in the believer.

There is another New Testament mystery, the revelation of God in Christ (1 Tim 3:16). And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifested in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen by angels, preached among the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up in glory. This is the same word used for Paul when he says “behold I will tell you a mystery we shall not all sleep but we shall be changed” (Cor 15:51) by the sound of the last trumpet. This he is speaking of the rapture and resurrection as simultaneous events. In the same manner as Christ was received up in glory so will the believers.

As the world suffers these horrible judgments things life will no longer be as we know it on earth. God’s wrath will literally consume the earth. As Jesus said (Luke 12:49) “I came to send fire on the earth, and how I wish it were already kindled.” People will convert paganism, calling on nature for their deliverance, mother earth have mercy. They will end up cursing God who controls nature and can be the only one to deliver them from its wrath.

The judgments are sequential and they increase in power until the end. In all these judgments they have the side of mercy, in that God calls out for the people to repent and be spared.

The Seal judgments

Rev 6:1 – 1st Seal the rider on the White horse rides to conquer. Contrary to those who see this rider as Christ in victory, He comes much later on a white horse later at his 2nd coming, at the end of the judgments to slay all the wicked. This rider is a counterfeit because it is linked to judgment as with all the riders. The prince that shall come the Antichrist will come on a white horse, promising peace, copying Christ, but his ultimate goal will be to conquer through deception. He will sign a covenant of peace with Israel and the people of the world will say along with them “peace and safety” (1 Thess 5).  In (Isa 28:14-15) this covenant Is made to guarantee their security but is called by God a covenant of hell. (Dan 9:24-26) it is signed by the anti-Christ “the prince that shall come.”  (Matt 24:4-5) gives the same type of warning about deception at the beginning of the Tribulation period. As Donald Barnhouse comments, “The one whose name is the word of God (Rev 19:11,16) has on his heads many crowns. The horseman of the first seal wears no diadem. The false crown is the stephanos…the weapon of this rider is the bow. The lord of glory is quite differently armed. He carries “a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations ” (Revelation. D.G Barnhouse pp.121-122) – contrary to the horsemen in (Zec 1:7-17;  Zec 6:1-8)

Rev  6:3-4 – 2nd Seal Wars on earth. Peace will be removed from the earth when the second seal is broken. Rev 6-19 teaches there will be no peace or safety for the unsaved from the time of the second seal until after the Second Coming of Christ. Paul’s teaches in (1 Thess 5:1-3)  states that the Day of the Lord will begin when the world claims to have peace and safety. So the Day of the Lord must begin before the second seal is broken for the period of false peace and security that existed before the tribulation is then removed. The Antichrist comes promoting peace by deception but then “conquering and to conquer”, the tribulation in its beginnings has a war. There are three at least major wars during the period of the tribulation, and the second seal is the first of these three wars. The second war is more toward the middle of the tribulation and the third is Armageddon at the end of the tribulation which is the end of all wars.

The Prophet Amos described this period “As if a man did flee from a lion, and a bear met him; or went into the house, and leaned his hand on the wall, and a serpent bit him” (Amos 5:19). Inescapable disasters will escalate in intensity throughout the seven-year Tribulation period.

Rev 6:5 – The 3rd Seal brings a world-wide famine which often comes as a consequence of war Worldwide economic troubles.   And I heard a voice in the midst of the four living creatures saying, “A quart of wheat for a denarius, and three quarts of barley for a denarius; and do not harm the oil and the wine.” This shows that we will still be using oil for an energy source. Since no one would be able to buy or sell without the mark there is need to have commerce continue. With all the pursuits of new energy sources the Bible shows oil will be valuable. This means that what we see today despite the conflicts on prices it will still be available. It also means that it will be within a nearer time period than we may think since oil is still the energy source we use. Some say the oil reserves can be used up in 40 years, this excludes finding new oil drills.

Rev 6:7 – The 4th Seal brings Death is released. One fourth of the world’s population dies. The population is destroyed by the sword, (war) famine, (death by starvation) pestilence, (death by diseases) and, death by wild animals. Once food becomes rare, wild animals will come out to attack man for food or have them as food. (no pun included)

Rev 6:9 – The 5th Seal brings Persecution and mass killing of God’s people worldwide. These are Christian martyrs of the first half of he tribulation. This certainly can’t be the church since where is the blessed hope, not any if we are all martyred.

Rev 6:12 – The 6th Seal brings a Massive earthquake – judgments ends with convulsions of nature, five blackouts occur during the end times, and this is the second blackout

Rev 7:2 – The 7th Seal is the sealing of the 144,000 Jews are called for world wide evangelism. This is not just a number being representative of the Church or Israel. It is specific as it states there are 12,000 from each tribe, they are men and they are virgins (not married nor partook in sexual misconduct). Then there is Silence in heaven for a short while as the 7 trumpet judgments are given to the 7 angels

The Trumpet judgments

Each judgment will come with increased severity and increased rapidity as they close to the time just before the Second Coming.”   The trumpets will sound judgment upon the earth (Rev 8:7), the sea (Rev 8:8-9), the waters (Rev 8:10-11), the heavens (Rev 8:12-13), and mankind (Rev 9:1-21).  These judgments are severe but limited in scope.

Rev 8:2 And I saw the seven angels who stand before God, and to them were given seven trumpets. Each angel releases judgment as the trumpet is blown.

Rev 8:7 – 1st Trumpet Hail, fire, and blood come upon the earth. 1/3 all grass and trees burned up.

Rev 8:8 – 2nd Trumpet A Great mountain hits sea. 1/3 all ocean becomes blood. 1/3 all sea life dies and 1/3 all ships destroyed.

Rev 8:10 – 3rd Trumpet the star called Wormwood hits earth. 1/3 of all the freshwater is poisoned.

Rev 8:12 – 4th Trumpet 1/3 of sun and moon darkened which affects a third of the daylight.

Rev 9:1 – 5th Trumpet locusts hat sting and torment men are loosed from the pit

Rev 9:13 – 6th Trumpet demons released an army of 200 million which kills 1/3 of the world’s population which appear to be demonic not human.

Those who are Amillennialists, and Preterists say the Millennium has occurred or is now taking place. Can anyone have any credibility to say that these judgments have occurred or that we are currently experiencing them.  Not unless they want to be part of what Paul addressed as deception in (2 Thess 2:1-2)

In (Gen 15:18) .. the LORD made a covenant with Abram, saying: “To your descendants I have given this land, from the river of Egypt to the great river, the River Euphrates – (Deut 1:7, Deut 11:24) The land covenant has always had spiritual conflicts throughout history and culminates with this final conflict. This is the separation of the promise land and Babylon, it is also the boundary of the old Roman Empire which is to be restored under the anti Christ.

In between the last trumpet is (Rev 10:4) “Now when the seven thunders uttered their voices, I was about to write; but I heard a voice from heaven saying to me, “Seal up the things which the seven thunders uttered, and do not write them.” These are another series of judgment which are unknown to what respect they have on mankind. So if someone says they know what the 7 thunders are they are attempting to do what God had John not to do. This was for John’s ears only. If the Word is not giving any information we should be silent also. While the lord has given much revelation there are secrets not fit for all the church but only for the apostle.

Rev 11:15-7 – Trumpet the 7th angel Cries from heaven before 7 bowl judgments are about to be released on earth . It is this trumpet that is used by some who claim the Church will go through some of the tribulation.

There are 7 feasts given to Israel as a memorial (Lev 23)

As with all the Old Testament types these feasts teach us about Christ, they have prophetic and spiritual meanings, they illustrate doctrine. The feasts are sequential as Christ fulfilled them in order. Christ fulfilled 4 of them in his first coming as they are spring feasts. In between these feasts are what is the summer season. This corresponding to the church age we now are in (John 4:35) Jesus tell us their is still 4 months to harvest , fall season but the fields are already white for harvest). The other 4 are the fall feasts in relation to the Latter Rain to be poured out on the nation Israel at the end of the age so they might be saved.

The last 3 feasts The last 3 feasts are the fall holy days.

Day of Trumpets = represents regathering, and the resurrection.

Day of Atonement = represents peace made with God, reconciliation.

Feast of Tabernacles  = represents Israel rejoicing over the harvest that took place. God is with us on earth, it is the Consummation of the ages.

These holy days are celebrated by the Jewish people all over the world today, especially the Orthodox.

All are fulfilled by the person of Christ. 4 are already fulfilled, 3 to go , which are completed by the rapture, the tribulation and 2nd coming.

The feast of trumpets is called Yom Truah – “Day of the Blowing of Trumpets” – (Lev 23) all Jews were called to remember their sins on this feast.

Zicharon Truah – “Memorial of Triumph” or “Shouting of Joy” –

In Judaism The Blowing of the Shofar is linked to the sacrifice of Isaac because a ram was used in his stead. It is representative of repentance because it is curved.

Trumpets were used in numerous ways: When the law was given on Mt  Sinai. Israel conquered Jericho with 7 shofar blasts on the 7th circle around (Joshua 6:20). The shofar was blown for war (Judges 3:27, 2 Sam 20:1) The watchman stood on the wall of the city and blew the shofar to warn the people of danger coming (Amos 3:6, Jer 6:1, Ez 33:6) It was blown to announce the Jubilee year, (Lev 25:9) slaves would listen to its sound it would signal their freedom. It was blown to announce a new king to the throne (1 Kings 34:39) At the Feasts of Trumpets it was blown to gather the people for a Sabbath rest and they would present special burnt offerings to the Lord.

Israel will be advised of the 2nd advent of their Messiah with the blowing of the shofar. Zechariah prophesies in (Zech 9:14) “Then the LORD will be seen over them, and His arrow will go forth like lightning. The Lord GOD will blow the trumpet, and go with whirlwinds from the south.”

The Trumpet Blasts consist of 100 notes sounded, 4 different types of notes are sounded.

Tekiah’= one long, single blast; its straight, plain, smooth, a continuous note. It is a Symbol of joy and contentment.

Shevarim = 3 short blasts; 3 broken notes, it is a symbol of sobbing.

Truah = extremely short, 9 in a row; trills, it is a symbol of trepidation, fear, and sorrow. The first 99 notes, are a mixture of 3 types of notes.

Tekiah Gedolah = The “Great Trump” or what is known as the “Last Trump” is the 100th note blown. It is as long as blower can hold his breath. It is a symbol of redemption, resurrection, and restoration of Israel. This is not to be confused with the trumpets of judgement in rvelation.

Paul due to Persecution couldn’t stay long enough in Thessalonica to teach all that he would have purposed to. So he wrote letters to respond to their question’s. In the 1st epistle he writes if a believer dies before the raptures he doesn’t miss out on it he actually will rise first before those who are still alive (1 Thess 4:13-15). He will then be gathered together with them in the air

Paul uses the terms “In Christ, or “In Jesus” or “In Him” which are technical terms. Paul used these meaning those baptized by the Spirit into the Body. This does not appear to include Old Testament saints, just Christians who are in Christ. The other Old Testament saints are still part of the 1st resurrection, as it occurs at different times taking place before the 2nd resurrection, it is not a singular event.

(1 Thess 4:16-17) – there are 7 sequential stages to the rapture:

1.  Lord shall descend from Heaven; return to Earth’s atmosphere not touching on the ground

2.  With a Shout – a military command; chief commander at a tent gives order to his subordinate

3. Voice of archangel –  an angel, Michael?  Sub-commander repeats the order he heard from Christ

4.  Trump of God – soldiers know what to do depending on sound of the trumpet. The Feast connected here – even in Judaism, is related to resurrection.

5.  The dead in Christ rise first out of the graves their bodies are transformed to their promised incorruptible, eternal bodies and meet their spirit in the air that has come back with Christ (1 Thess 4:14).

6.  We who are Alive shall go to clouds (1 Thess 4:17). Note, the word “rapture” is not used in Scripture, but the concept is . Caught up. The phrase “caught up” in 1 Thessalonians 4:17 is the Greek word harpazo, which actually means “to be taken away, violently.” The Latin equivalent of harpazo is the verb rapio, “to take away by force.” It is the word rapture.

7.  We shall always be with the Lord – we return to Heaven with Him first for the marriage then later return to earth with him at Armegeddon and after the judgment the marriage feast. We shall always be with the Lord -we return to Heaven with Him first for the marriage, then later return to earth with him at Armageddon and after the judgment the marriage feast.

The Timing of the Rapture – Since the feasts are sequential The Day of Atonement (symbolizes the Tribulation period) procedes after the Day of Trumpets (symbolizes the Rapture). So the Tribulation begins AFTER the rapture. Jesus fulfilled the first 4 feats on their exact day, this does not mean he will at his descent to our atmosphere, although he may.

The rapture (or “translation”) of the church finds its theological parallel to the “raptures” of Enoch (Genesis 5:24) and Elijah (2 Kings 2: 12). Both individuals disappeared or were caught up into heaven bodily (whether they remained there is certainly a debate). At His ascension, our Lord Himself was “taken up” into heaven bodily (Acts 1:9). The biblical teaching of the rapture describes both the resurrection of deceased believers and the translation of living believers into the air to meet the Lord (1 Thess 4:16-17; 1 Cor 15:51- 52). Just as the Lord was taken to the father so we too will be taken by the Lord to the house that has been prepared (John 14).

The last trump shall sound (1 Cor 15:52) the dead are resurrected, and some living will be gathered together with him not seeing death. Paul says The last trump is a specific trump he expects the Corinthians to know what he’s talking about, because he’s already explained a good portion of the Mosaic Law, All along in Corinthians, Paul is connecting the Feasts with Jesus’ fulfillment , (1 Cor 5:7) the Passover; (1 Cor 5:8) Unleavened Bread; (1 Cor 15:20-24) First Fruits. (Cor 15:30-58) trumpets-the resurrection and taking away of the church, the bride for their marriage in heaven.

So the trump he’s talking about is Feast of Trumpets. This is not the same trump as in (Rev 11). Paul cannot be referring to (Rev 11), because the book of Revelation would not be written for another 30 years, they had no idea about this judgment.

The trumpet that sounds at the time of the rapture/resurrection of the Church in (1 Thessalonians 4:16) is called the “trump of God.” The trump of (1 Corinth 15) is about an event that happens in a moment, in a twinkling of an eye. Paul said, “I’ll show you a mystery we’ll not all sleep, but we’ll be changed in a moment, in a twinkling of an eye, at the last trump.” In Revelation the seventh trumpet is the trumpet of the seventh angel. This seventh trump covers a period of days and it is a judgment (Revelation 10:7). One is a blessing the other is judgment.

Another difference is the last trump of (1 Corinth 15) and (1 Thess 4) is a trumpet of glory. We are immediately changed and made into His image and brought up to meet the Lord in the air. The 7th trumpet of the Book of Revelation is described as a woe. In (Rev 8:13) the angel says this at the end of the fourth trumpet, “Woe, woe, woe, to the inhabitants of the earth by reason of the other three voices of the trumpet of the three angels, which are yet to sound!” Three more “woes” refer to the fifth, sixth, and seventh trumpets. At the end of the fifth trumpet (Rev 9:12), and (Rev 11:15), the seventh trumpet, is the third woe to come. It is not a blessing but judgment just like the other woes, the seals and the bowls.

If you think that the Church must go through the Great Tribulation, then you’re taking away from the immanency of the return of Jesus Christ, the very reason He told us to watch. We’d would instead be watching for the Great Tribulation and the unveiling of the Antichrist and not Jesus’ return. Nowhere does Scripture indicate this as the focus. As Christians we are not to look for Antichrist even if he is revealed, since the bride adores her husband and has eyes only for Him, making herself ready for His coming. The Church would then know exactly when he’s coming since he gave us 7 years from the time of the signing of the peace treaty with Israel and 1260 days after the abomination of desolation in the temple, until his coming. This is reserved for the tribulation saints. This is why Jesus said in (Matt 24) he who endures to the end will be saved. Those in that generation that see all the signs mentioned that occur in the same time period will have the hardest time of all to make it to the end when He comes back.

When the 7th angel sounds in the book of Revelation there are still have the 7 bowl judgments to be poured out on the earth. For those who think we go up and go back down immediately this would be bad timing. This indicates that it is different trumpet than the one mentioned in Corinthians and in Matthew. The one in (Matt 24:30) sounds his returning to earth in which everyone sees Him coming in glory. But when the last trumpet sounds in Revelation, it signals the beginning of the bowl judgments where the worst devastation is coming still. Clearly these are different trumpets.

The oldest prophecy uttered by a prophet was given before the flood of Noah and was of the Second Coming! It was given by Enoch, who begot Methusaleh the oldest recorded living man (on record) who when he died the flood came. Enoch was someone who would know the difference of a rapture that he himself participated in, and the 2nd coming. He is quoted in (Jude 14-15) the Lord comes with 10,000 x 10,000 of his saints (myriad’s and myriad’s).  Notice (1 Thess 3:13)  …“ at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints.” Notice he comes with ALL His saints (not some) which would in context of other passages mean the Church that He has already taken. These are the ones who have received their resurrected immortal bodies to co- rule and reign with Christ for 1,000 years on earth. These are unable to have children then and will be servants teaching and ministering to the peoples needs as we work alongside him promoting His kingdom.

At Christ’s Second Coming all the unsaved will be taken from the earth in judgment (Matt 25), but the living saints that survived the Tribulation will be left on the earth to enter the Millennium. It is in the same order as the flood in the days of Noah. They will then repopulate the earth.

The ones taken from the field, the bed and the millennium (Matt 24:40-41) appear to be the unsaved, who will be removed in judgment separating the sheep from the goats when Christ returns after the Tribulation. The ones left (the sheep of Matt 25) will enter the Millennial Kingdom saved. Only saved people will enter the one thousand year reign of Christ on earth after he separates the sheep from the goats. And so Christ will rule on earth in a restored world like Eden until the end of the ages. (Isa 65:20-25) “No more shall an infant from there live but a few days, nor an old man who has not fulfilled his days; for the child shall die one hundred years old, but the sinner being one hundred years old shall be accursed.. Man will be given 100 years to repent. People will live to be 1,000 years old as they once did in Adams time. In the millennium there will still be people born that will need to believe; those who received their resurrected bodies will co-rule and reign with Christ for the millennium. This is why Satan is let out at the end to test those who have not decided and his rebellion will be immediately crushed. This is before the New Jerusalem comes down from heaven in (Rev 21) and the new heaven and earth are made. Then we enter the eternal kingdom of which it is written: “Eye has not seen, nor ear heard, nor have entered into the heart of man the things which God has prepared for those who love Him” (1 Cor 2:9)

Source: © 2009 Let Us Reason Ministries – Thank you to Let us Reason Ministries for giving me permission to post their article.


39 comments to Caught Up By Jesus Christ Or Caught By A False Christ

  • Pieter

    Hi there (I know this is from left field, but is a letter/response/question to a lot of your articles)
    First off all thank your for this site. As a “baby” Christian, still learning the Word of God, I do find this site very helpful and have read many of your articles. Now before I ask a question just a very brief background to me being reborn by the grace and blood of my savoir and Lord Jesus Christ.
    I grew like most Afrikaans men, up in a conservative Christian household. Like most I did the Sunday school thing learned about Jesus, prayed, read my Bible, but all through my teens I never truly understood Gods message for me. Then came my twenties! Ag the parties, the booze, the so called “good” times. Jesus, God and Religion became distant memories, but in hindsight today I know He was still knocking. Now don’t get me wrong I was never a “bad” person, no drugs, sleeping around or any of those stuff, but an unsaved sinner none the less. Met my lovely wife and we tried to attend church, but again we were of the World. We worried of the World, finances, houses, cars, debt and so forth were the centre of our lives. We never admitted it, but the World and the forces within that world held us hostage. Still Jesus was Knocking…
    A couple of years ago before my twenties changed to a 30 I started searching for God. Yeah I know it sounds awful that one “Searches” for God, but that’s what I did within my ridiculous quest to understand God with a human mind! To make a long story short, I read allot on theology (from almost all the church groups), other religions, everything man has to say about religion. BUT NOT THE WORD OF GOD! In any case this all lead me to becoming something of a borderline atheist, to almost considering catholic religion, to even supporting an emergent theology. Still Jesus was knocking…
    Today I struggle to find that exact moment in time when God took me back to His Word. I cannot recall how it happened; I just remembered I continued to pray to God for the truth.
    Enough about me! As a humble man who would be the first to admit that I do not know everything in God’s Word as yet, but do know a bit about theology, and because I do see you guys at DTW as true brothers and sisters in Christ, I want to ask you something. Humbly if I am wrong in anything I am saying please rebuke me, as Paul did to the great apostle Peter. Its you’re right.
    If we look at the end times, theology clearly distinguish between 3 types of thoughts. Pre-millennialism, A- millennialism and Post-millennialism. For my question I am ignoring A- millennialism, which in essence is just sitting on the fence. I believe Christianity as a religion is basically divided because of the end time prophesies and whether you believe in Pre or Post millennialism. Fundamentalists/conservatives hold to Pre-millennialism where the Word of God shows us about the tribulation to come. There will be no great revival, and in fact Christians will suffer greatly for their religion. Now there is more than enough scripture in the Gospels and in the books of the Apostels to literally support this. On the other hand we have the Post-millennial supporters who believe that the apostasy and tribulation was already completed during the times of the early Christian church. Times of Nero and the mark of the beast being that of Nero ect. We do see scripture like 1 Cor 15:24, Dan2:35, Dan 2:44 which tell us about a great Kingdom of God. Therefore there is justification for a revival (at least in their eyes I presume). I am not sure I am making sense! My question is this is any of these important for our salvation? Does it matter to which one of the end times prophesies we are looking at or believing in? I cannot find anywhere that belief in how the World will end is necessary for salvation? (again if I am wrong please rebuke/correct me). If not what is then so wrong about a revival? (Please note I am not a supporter of revival theology, but do have Gods Great Commission in the back of my mind when asking the question). Where does the Great Commission fall in?
    Sorry I know this is a long letter and do not wish to take any of your time. To be honest I am not 100% sure yet what my standpoint is, although in my heart of hearts I do believe Jesus warned as many times on what is to come. I pray and ask only to learn the truth through the Holy Spirit and the Written Word of God and since you have never given me reason to doubt, I do ask the question.
    God bless you and be with you in your work for Him.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Hi Pieter

    No none of these are important for our salvation. Jesus does however tell you to constantly watch and pray and look for HIM. And as time draws nearer you will KNOW the time for Jesus’ return is near. Jesus requested that we carry on living live as if you would a normal day. Don’t fret. Jesus says he WILL PROTECT US. And I believe HIM WHOLEHEARTEDLY on that one :) So look at this topic as being more of a puzzle to solve than anything else. I am pre-trib. I believe Jesus is coming back before things get bad. Will we have to go through some persecution? Possible? To what degree? I dunno. This is why I warn the way I do, I don’t want my loved ones left behind to face unimaginable horrors at the hands of a mad man. But if it happens that way for me too, I wont denounce my faith in Jesus just cos I mis-understood…nope I just keep plodding along and relying on HIM.

    Jesus says He is the blessed hope. ‘Blessed hope’ for what if we are all going to go thought the trib and come out second best in the end. I think the story of Enoch toughed my heart greatly, as God just took him away before the great flood. Also remember a lot of the trib is for Israel and God’s chosen that they will realise their mistake and return to Him. This of course does not include the Latter Rain church of today who for some unknown reason thing they are Israel…*coughs*…and *splutters*…

  • Pieter

    Thank you so much for your respons. Please bear with me as I will in future ask alot of questions which might seem silliy…haha.

    Kind regards

  • Michael Anthony


    I could be facetious and say “don’t worry about it, we will explain it to you on the way up (rapture)”.

    I will echo DTW.

    There is a blues song sung by a blind street singer (Blind Willie Johnson) in the 1920’s. After many years I still cannot get the tune out of my head…
    “…keep your lamp trimmed & burning, see what the Lord has done.
    “…keep your lamp trimmed & burning, For the Lord is almost come.
    Sister don’t get worried, brother don’t get worried. For the work is almost done.
    ..almost over, almost over…”

    Something like that. BTW, K.M Williams does a nice version and so does Darryl Mansfield & Glenn Kaiser. Deborah, that would be in A and C. And both are Calvary Chapel dudes (Yey).

    You could, in an over-simplistic sense, say that there are two types of Christians; those that expectantly await the return of our Lord and Saviour and those that do not. From what I have seen there is hardly a praise and worship song that addresses this, I had to find such songs in the rough so to speak.
    There is a crown promised in the Gospels to those that earnestly expect the coming of our Lord Jesus. Christians should, by their very nature be watching, praying and expecting his soon return.

    Watching – see the political spectrum and false religious kingdoms organise themselves into global organization(s). Watch the church… watch that great turning away from the (simple) truth as warned about in 2 Thess. Watch biblical events unfold, watch the Middle East. One big watch; Israel back in their land *Ezekiel 36,37 in the latter days. This is THE biggest single event in prophecy that adds weight to the fact that we are living in the latter days. Also, according to 2 Peter a massive, escalating denial of Christ’s coming. (Watch people and modern Christian movements say and teach the exact opposite)

    Praying – Pray that you are counted worthy to escape the coming judgement (as per Jesus own words). Pray that you be not deceived, or caught up in silly ideas and doctrines. Pray that the Holy Spirit gives you clear understanding pertaining to bible prophecy. In fact don’t believe me, pray, pray, pray.

    Remember that Israel missed the first coming, yet they had (amongst many others) Daniel’s prophecies declaring to the very day he rode into Jerusalem. Jesus held them accountable for not searching the scriptures and KNOWING the time of his coming – the result? Spiritual Blindness (only in part though). You could apply that today…

    Eschatology is very important, 26% of the bible is prophetic. Your salvation does not depend on it, the completed and sufficient work for us done by Jesus Christ our Lord does. We also believe in the sufficiency of scripture, according to the author of the book (the Holy Spirit) we have sufficient detail.

    *we could have a revival in terms of Christians waking up to the times we are living in. We are seeing massive salvations in Muslim countries etc (don’t worry CNN, NBC, BBC etc won’t cover such things) , but we are seeing apostasy grow in the ‘Christian’ countries and the escalation of counterfeit revivals.

    Watch & Pray.

    Again, watch and keep praying.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)


    Nah not to worry, a good conversation always becomes a great conversation :) Ok, on this blog, only about 8% of the time haha…actually make that 5%. Entertainment value however is higher.

  • Michael Anthony

    Ok, so another Columbo moment.

    I am currently doing Chuck Missler’s commentary (verse by verse)on Ezekiel. (Talk about a nerd fest). Anyway, God made Ezekiel do some pretty weird stuff to get Israel’s attention (ask me later). Hosea was another. Anyway, each of these actions represented where Israel was spiritually, think of it as a children’s play with profound meaning.

    So, not to miss the detail; my bluesman BLIND Willie here was really physically blind (there were a few blind blues singers that sang amazing Christian songs with amazing lyrics at that time). Which means that I see God doing something here too – dude was physically blind but he could really see. But that’s my opinion of course.

    I have mentioned this on this site before.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)


    It’s too early in the morning to understand what you have just written lol.

  • Pieter

    Thanks guys for the explanation

    Godd bless all of you.

  • Pieter

    Hi Guys!
    One question/statement…. For the past couple of months I have followed a woman named Monica Dennington on YouTube. Now when I first stumbled upon her teaching, I had no problem and it also helped me back to the Word of God. But now…
    See she have these video series/seminars, and her latest one is about the seven Spirits of God, build on what we read in Revelations. But through this “series” she has now denounced the Trinity (because the word “Trinity” does not appear in the Bible) and now in her last video she proclaims the Holy Spirit to be feminine and the Wife of God.
    The problem is she uses Scripture to support het claims, using Proverbs 8 as the creation of the Holy Spirit and also because the Hebrew word for Spirit is “Ruwach” which is in essense feminine. Her video gives more explanations. (She argues that the Spirt of Wisdom = Holy Spirit therefore wisdom as referred to in Proverbs 8 is a woman thus =the Holy Spirit to be feminine)
    First of all is all of this true? Secondly what should a “baby” Christian like me do in instances like these? See she makes solid points from scripture to back the claims. Does one suddenly need to learn Hebrew in order to understand the Word of God? Is there anything one can read about this?
    Sorry to be such a bother about these things, and if you have written anything about Monica Dennington please refer me to it


  • Deborah (Discerning the World)


    About 2 years ago I saw her Youtube videos (tic toc ministries) and I thought it was ok. But something about her bothered me. Was it the hair colour? Hmmm I dunno she reminded me of someone who preferred the ‘darker’ side of life. Don’t want to judge her but that is how I saw it. So I just didn’t listen to her again.

    About a year ago I found out she has has many Roman Catholic views. Justification by works and faith is one of them. Now she denies the Trinity – THIS is serious. Her argument that the word trinity is not in the bible so that means Father, Son and Holy Spirit does not exist? Wow.

    Oh double WOW I see she is calling all Calvinists to repentance.

    As for the Holy Spirit being female – a triple WOW. Sounds like she has been reading that book The Shack. No where is the Holy Spirit mentioned as being female. There are no female Angels even, so how can she come to this conclusion. If the Holy Spirit is female that means God is male and female, mother and father and that is blasphemous.

    My word she has lost the plot completely.

    For a ‘baby’ Christian you are sure doing well by noticing the big errors. No you don’t need to know Hebrew, I don’t. BUT YOU DO NEED THE HOLY SPIRIT AS HE IS YOUR INTERPRETER – get yourself a decent study bible. A John MacArthur one is really cool.

  • Pieter

    Dont want to sound like a tape on repeat mode, but again thank you.
    I believe that the Spirit has guided me to the Word and to your site.

  • Michael Anthony


    Here is one issue

    ‘…she makes solid points from scripture to back the claims’

    This is why basic hermaneutics is so important. You can make a case for anything using scripture out of context. Hebrew is the kind of language that a single word can have multiple meanings, depending on the word in front of it and the word after it (in other words, context). Greek is a more of a scientific language, it is very precise.
    But I suppose you don’t even have to go that far – the scriptures nowhere mention the Holy Spirit as ‘she’, and scripture is consistent with amazing accuracy. If anything is ‘so’ it has to be ‘so’ throughout the whole bible, not hidden here and there and it may mean this or it can also mean that. That is not biblical consistency.

    The best context is the WHOLE counsel of God, not a scripture here and another one there and therefore because this also can mean that we can conclude that x means y. That is biblical sleight of hand coming from this woman.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    …. she makes solid points from scripture to back the claims

    And that is exactly what these false teachers do, they make the most solid claims to back up their nonsense. One of my rules of thumbs is, when they whip out powerpoint, start drawing diagrams, bring out the meanings of words in Greek or Hebrew to prove a point then I throw my hands in the air and say, ‘that’s it! I am outt here’.

    When people start to have to prove Scripture and things in Scripture to make a point as to what they are trying to teach you then warning bells needs to start going off. I am of course speaking about Orthodox Christian teaching that the ‘minister’ is now trying to debunk. I won’t have a problem if someone drew the measurements of Noah’s ark on a board and tried to work out how many animals could fit inside lol. Not that I would ever do anything like this…erm.

  • Pieter

    Hi Michael

    As an Afrikaans boytjie I firsts had to look up the meaning of “hermaneutics”…lol

    But truly thank you, I agree with what you are saying.

    And Deborah…

    you are so right, was watching the TBN channel a while back (it’s sad but actually laughable to what those guys get up to), and it was about their number 1 subject of prosperity. Same thing take one or two snippets of the Bible where the Lord promises a blessing and wha-la we have a justification to live as we want and chase money…
    Same with Islam, they take Deut 18:18 and bam we are now talking about Mohammad…

    At the end its actually so sad and deceiving…

    God Bless.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)


    Don’t worry, I had no idea what eschatology meant 5 years ago. Then I heard about hermeneutics and I thought I would never make it as a Christian. Then someone one day mentioned soteriology and in a group of about 10 people said, ‘what on earth does that mean?’ I saw the relief on others faces when he said the theological study of salvation. I laughed and wondered what big word I was going to learn next. I have learnt many big words since haha

    But I love to keep it simple, cos I always think back to the day when I was lost and searching, and found Jesus Christ and His gospel was so simple to understand. The gospel message is uncomplicated, simple, easy to understand, no rituals, no works, just faith and belief in Him, repentance of sin which results in an ever growing, loving, amazing and absolutely beautiful relationship with God through His Son Jesus Christ.

    I now have a blog and warn and try help people with Escapology.

  • Isidore

    For prophecy fans: You will be astounded when you read a recent article entitled “Pretrib Expert John Walvoord Melts Ice.” It greeted my eyeballs on Dec. 29th when I spied it on Joe Ortiz’ excellent END TIMES PASSOVER blog.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)


    Thanks for this. I have posted it as an article here:

  • Amanda

    Holy Spirit
    Category: Life
    7307 Strong’s Concordance ruwach
    A feminine noun meaning spirit, wind, breath. The word is used to refer to The Spirit of God or The Word.
    The Spirit of God Is properly referred to as The Holy Spirit.
    The Spirit of The Lord has a part in Creating the universe; imparted life…
    Genesis 1:2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was on the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved on the face of the waters.
    Job 33:4 The Spirit of God has made me; the breath of the Almighty gives me life.

    The Spirit imparts Wisdom for understanding.
    Isaiah 11:2 The Spirit of the LORD will rest on him–the Spirit of wisdom and of understanding, the Spirit of counsel and of power, the Spirit of knowledge and of the fEar of the LORD–

    Job 28:20-21 Where then does wisdom come from? Where does understanding dwell? it is hidden from the eyes of every living thing, concealed even from the birds of the air.

    2451 Strong’s Concordance chokmah
    A feminine noun meaning skillful, Wisdom, skill, experience, shrewdness.
    Proverbs 8:1 Does not wisdom call out? Does not understanding raise her voice?
    Proverbs 8:11 for wisdom is more precious than rubies, and nothing you desire can compare with her
    Proverbs 4:7 Wisdom is supreme; therefore get wisdom. Though it cost All you have, get understanding.

    Proverbs 7:4 Say to wisdom, “You are my sister,” and call understanding your kinsman;
    269 Strong’s Concordance achowth
    Irregular feminine of 251; A sister (used very widely [like250], literal & figurative:–(an) other, sister, together.
    A feminine noun,, sister, beside biological , it refers to more intimate female relatives. SS of Solomon uses the word to refer to Bride..
    Song of Solomon 4:9 You have stolen my heart, my sister, my bride; you have stolen my heart with one glance of your eyes, with one jewel of your necklace.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Amanda (not the Amanda that usually comments on this blog with SOUND teaching)

    By saying that the Holy Spirit is feminine you are saying that Jesus Christ is feminine and so is God. For God the FATHER, Jesus Christ HIS SON and the Holy Spirit are ONE and 3 separate persons. The Holy Spirit descended on Mary and she gave birth to Jesus Christ the SON of God the FATHER. If The Holy Spirit is feminine, then so is God and Jesus Christ.

    The bride is symbolically ‘female’ (because genuine Christians are both men and women), and the marriage to Jesus Christ (is symbolic). If Jesus Christ is feminine then you have a Lesbian marriage. And again if the Holy Spirit is feminine then an abomination took place when the Holy Spirit overshadowed Mary. Disgusting.

    This whole feminine thing you are referring to is based around the cosmic universe and mother earth and is NEW AGE. I think you need to stop reading The Shack and get back to reading the Bible.

  • Amanda

    Since the emergents have won the revolution and are now mainline, it is quite acceptable in church to refer to the spirit as ‘she’. Phyllis Tickle does and she did in Rob Bell’s church without a squeek from the men. The emerged church is perfect for those who want to get in touch with their feminine side. Since they do not believe the Word of God anyway and therefor cannot preach it, they might as well be girls if they want to.

  • Pieter

    @Amanda (new one as DTW reffered to…)

    Sounds like you have been watching Monica Dennington’s videos… Now I also used to watch her and thought this girl is a great teacher of the word…but when she started with all these feminine Holy Spirit stories in her seminar “7 spirits of God” she lost me forever…thank God… it actually escalated to her claiming the Holy Spirit to be our mother god, the wife of God…

    Deception all over….

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)


    You know it’s only Wednesday and already I have had enough exposure to utter rubbish to last me a life time, or at least till the end of the week lol. I must get around to writing about this woman.

  • Pieter

    you should

    But I shout If ya need help I know a bit about her…

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)


    Oh I thought you would never ask lol. Write me something in Word doc and I will post it as a separate article.

  • Amanda

    You know it’s only Wednesday and already I have had enough exposure to utter rubbish to last me a life time, or at least till the end of the week lol.

    Come on, people! The week is but a puppy. And SAMS has just started!

    The old one.
    Dankie, Pieter.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)


    This puppy is having serious problems staying awake. Please write us a short post on SAMS. And it’s not BOBS cousin that’s for sure.

  • Amanda

    I added NOT my opinion only wat I studied & is Clearly in the books.. “Not of man but of God”

    2 Timothy 2:15 Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved, a workman who does not need to be ashamed and who correctly handles the Word of Truth.

    John 6:53 Jesus said to them, “I tell you the Truth, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no Life in you

    This like many other of His teaching went over real good with the “teachers of the law”..

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)


    Okie dokie then… maybe you should read some more. Cos God is not female. Stay away from The Shack. I told you this already.

  • Elmarie A

    I agree with Deborah, TO STAY CLEAR OF THE SHACK. This book left me very very uneasy, I read it about, the time it was released. The story is so so may i call it SICK!!! As a Christian it was insulting to everyting we stand for.


  • GrowingandLearning

    Jesus says that no one knows the day or the hour. We won’t know when He’ll come. If we take all this pre-trib, post-trib, whatever-trib stuff too seriously we miss the point. We can in many ways predict a round-about time of his return (a seven year treaty? Come guys, where is this actually in the Bible? Sure, it’s in commentaries and books and opinions, but it’s not so black and white in the Bible. I’ve read the verses, they can be read numerous ways.)

    This is a secondary doctrine. Solid eschatology does not have to be complicated or detailed, the basics are: Jesus will come again, we don’t know when, he will put all things right and judge the living and the dead. Those who believe will have eternal life. Outside of that we are speculating and trying our best to understand, but we must make sure we don’t miss the point.

  • GrowingandLearning

    I said above: “We can in many ways predict a round-about time of his return”. I was saying this in the context that if we take all this trib stuff too seriously we can predict his return in some way. This is wrong. No one knows the day or the hour (and don’t say ‘oh we could know the year or the round-about time because Jesus only mentions a day or an hour, I’ve heard someone say that and that is seriously nonsense). Just thought that needed to be cleared up. When we talk of a ‘seven year treaty’ we are in effect saying we have an idea when he will return, because when the seven years or up or when we see people gathered against Israel etc. etc., we can have an idea that he is going to return any time then. I don’t think that’s right.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)


    >> a seven year treaty? Come guys, where is this actually in the Bible? Sure, it’s in commentaries and books and opinions, but it’s not so black and white in the Bible. I’ve read the verses, they can be read numerous ways.)

    Not a 7 year treaty. A 7 year tribulation. with the establishement of a peace treaty where Israel is divided and given to the Palestinians. What part of this massive on going saga did you miss on the news? lol. Half way through the anti-Christ set’s himself up in the temple in Jerusalem and declares himself to be God. this is the 2nd part of the tribulation called the great tribulation and this is the part that you do not want to be in.

    And it’s as clear as daylight in the bible.

    Anyhow GrowingandLearning. I think before you get all wrapped up in this topic, you need to go and find out what contemplative spirituality means. If you follow this teaching preached by 99% pastors and ministries nowadays you will find yourself in a spot of trouble. You commented under the Louie Giglio articles not knowing really what he preaches. So go find out, you have a mass library at your finger tips. Please, I am not joking.

  • GrowingandLearning

    i’m just saying we mustn’t forget the point. Where does it say a seven year tribulation? Rev 13:5 and Dan 7:25, as examples, could be referring to a number of things. There are so many ways all these verses could be interpreted… and by making this our focus we can lose the plot. Preach the gospel and look forward to Jesus’ return, don’t sit and do maths with the book of revelation and look out for the antichrist’s return, or a number of antichrists. If post-trib, pre-trib, whatever trib is your focus you’ll lose the point. That is IMHO.

    I mentioned before that I do know what contemplative spirituality is, and don’t believe Louie Giglio is involved in it – even after your posts. Why are you so sure you know what contemplative spirituality is? Just asking.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)


    >>Preach the gospel and look forward to Jesus’ return

    I have already said similar in my longer comment here:

    >> I mentioned before that I do know what contemplative spirituality is, and don’t believe Louie Giglio is involved in it – even after your posts.

    Go do your research, then come back… in fact lets go too the Giglio article(s) and you tell me point by point based on his articles why there is not one ounce of contemplative spirituality being taught by him?

    This way we will tell who knows what contemplative spirituality is and is not. Are you up to it? I’ve already stated my comments in the article, now you need to tell me why what I said is NOT true.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)


    I know I am having probs with my internet connection. But you seem to have disappeared. Are you still up to telling me why what I said under all my Louie Giglio articles is NOT true?

    You are very quick to tell me I am wrong, yet can’t tell me why. Since being offline I have read 2 of his book which provides even more information as to what the believes.

    Have you managed to do any research so far on WHAT contemplative spirituality is? (hint: in this case we are looking at centering prayer).

    Or are you just going to ‘believe’ that he is kosher?

  • Martin Horan

    I know I’m a bit late in the proverbial day getting into the feminine Holy Spirit argument.
    The grammatical terms masculine and feminine are purely that–grammatical terms! They have nothing whatsoever to do with the sex of what’s being referred to.
    Masculine, feminine and neuter have nothing to do with nouns like man, woman, boy, girl, dog cat, cow, bull, &c. In some languages a certain word can be masculine and in another language the same word will be a different gender. Actually, in the same language you can have synomymous nouns the gender of which changes regarding the specific noun.
    The argument of masculine or feminine in the Bible taken from the gender of the noun is absurd.
    The lines of Alexander Pope come to mind:
    A little learning is a dangerous thing;
    Drink deep or taste not of the Perian spring,
    For there shallow draughts intoxicate the brain,
    While drinking largely sobers us again.
    Pope is merely pointing out here that jumping to conclusions without having all the facts it not a very sensible thing to do. It makes us appear foolish.
    To imagine that the gender of a noun in Hebrew or Greek is telling us the gender of God is quite foolish.

  • Jamie

    In Exodus we read the history of Egypt and God’s wrath while the Hebrews ( God’s chosen ) remained in Egypt. I think we have to take all the bible in account to bring balance in truth and purity of the word united with the discernment of the Holy Spirit. God did not allow any of His wrath to come upon the Hebrew people while in the midst He was dealing out wrath to Egypt. You see when the blood is applied in obedience God’s hand protects us in the midst of His wrath to the ungodly.

  • Jamie

    Martin, The gender of God is not a gender. The bible teaches God as being a Spirit. Now Jesus the messiah was a MAN, “masculine”. I’m sure you already know this.

  • Martin Horan

    Thank you, Jamie. I do know that the Bible teaches God as being a spirit and that Jesus was a man. God is not a gender being a spirit, you appear to be saying. However, Jesus and God the Father Himself are identified in male gender terms. I am taking on Debs’ point with Amanda that God is not female or identifed in the Bible as masculine. I had a friend who got into Signs and Wonders who told me that if you dream of the Holy spirit and He appears as feminine. That’s nowhere in the Bible. People who come up with such ideas are going beyond Scripture.

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Terms and Conditions for Submission of Comments

Caught Up By Jesus Christ Or Caught By A False Christ

Terms and Conditions:terms and conditions

Because this world is becoming more evil by the minute and Discerning the World is coming under attack more often from people with some very nasty dispositions, we now have ‘Terms and Conditions for Submission of Comments‘ which you need to agree too before you can comment – this is to protect us and you when you comment on this website.  If you are not here to harm Discerning the World and it’s authors, please by all means comment, however if you are here to cause harm in any way, please don’t comment.

The following conditions does not mean that the authors of Discerning The World permit only opinions that are in agreement with us. This also does not mean that we fear dissenting opinions or ideas that are contrary to the beliefs that we hold (and/or that of the revealed Scriptures of the Holy Bible).

The following describes the Terms and Conditions applicable to your use of the “Comments” submission service at the Discerning the World website.


  1. Discerning the World owns and operates the site (the “Site”). Your use of the features on the Site allowing for submission of a “Comment” is subject to the following terms and conditions (the “Terms”). Discerning the World may modify these Terms at any time without notice to you by posting revised Terms on the Site. Your submission of a “Comment” to the Site following the modification of these Terms shall constitute your binding acceptance of and agreement to be bound by those modified Terms.
  2. By submitting a “Comment” you are accepting these Terms through your clicking of the “POST COMMENT” button.
  3. Discerning the World has the right, but not the obligation, to take any of the following actions, in Discerning the World’s sole unfettered discretion, at any time, and for any reason or no reason, without providing any prior notice:
    1. Restrict, suspend or terminate your ability to submit “Comments,” to the Site;
    2. Change, suspend or modify all or any part of the Site or the features thereof;
    3. Refuse or remove any material posted on, submitted to or communicated through the Site by you;
    4. Deactivate or delete any screen names, profiles or other information associated with you; or
    5. Alter, modify, discontinue or remove any comment off the Site.
  4. You agree that, when using or accessing the Site or any of the features thereof, you will not:
    1. Violate any applicable law or regulation;
    2. Interfere with or damage the Site, through hacking or any other means;
    3. Transmit or introduce to the Site or to other users thereof any viruses, cancel bots, Trojan horses, flood pings, denial of service attacks, or any other harmful code or processes;
    4. Transmit or submit harmful, threatening, abusive, harassing, defamatory, deceptive, fraudulent, obscene, indecent, vulgar, lewd, violent, hateful or otherwise objectionable content or material;
    5. Transmit or submit any unsolicited advertising, promotional materials, or spam;
    6. Stalk or harass any user or visitor to the Site; or
    7. Use the content or information available on the Site for any improper purpose.
  5. You retain the Copyright of any “Comment” you submit to Discerning the World. By submitting a “Comment” to Discerning the World, you agree to grant Discerning the World a irrevocable, non-exclusive, royalty-free, perpetual license to use the material or commentary that you have submitted, in any medium and in any manner that Discerning the World may, in its sole unfettered discretion, choose.
  6. By submitting a “Comment” to Discerning the World, you agree to comply with the following rules concerning such submissions:
    1.  You agree not to include in your “Comment”:
      1. Any false, defamatory, libelous, abusive, threatening, racially offensive, sexually explicit, obscene, harmful, vulgar, hateful, illegal, or otherwise objectionable content;
      2. Any content that may be seen as stalking or harassing of any other Site contributors;
      3. Any content that personally attacks an individual. (An example of a personal attack is posting negative comments about an individual in a way meant to demean that person. Note that posting your opinion about someone’s ideas, doctrine or actions is not a personal attack);
      4. Any content that discloses private details concerning any person, for eg., phone numbers that have not been made public, photos that are not in the public domain, residential address that is not public, ID numbers, Social Security numbers, email addresses that are not in the public domain, etc.;
      5. Any content that you know to be false, misleading, or fraudulent;
      6. Any use of profanity;
      7. Any content including advertisements or otherwise focused on the promotion of commercial events or businesses, or any request for or solicitation of money, goods, or services for private gain;
      8. Any content that contains software viruses or any other computer code, files or programs designed to interrupt, destroy or limit the functionality of any computer software or hardware or telecommunications equipment; or
      9. Any content directly or indirectly soliciting responses from minors (defined as anyone under 18 years of age).
    1. If any part of the “Comment” is not your original work, it is your responsibility to add the name of the third party, name the book with page number or a link (url) to the website where you obtained the information.
    2. Your “Comment” may contain Copyrighted material, the use of which has not always been specifically authorized by the copyright owner. You are however allowed to make such material available in your “Comment” in an effort to advance understanding of environmental, political, human rights, economic, democracy, scientific, and social justice issues, etc.  This constitutes a ‘fair use’ of any such copyrighted material as provided for in section 107 of the US Copyright Law. In accordance with Title 17 U.S.C. Section 107, the material on this Site is distributed without profit to those who have expressed a prior interest in receiving the included information for research and educational purposes. For more information go to:
    3. If you wish to use copyrighted material from a website or any other medium for purposes to add to your “Comment” that go beyond ‘fair use’, you must obtain permission from the copyright owner. (Fair Use means you may quote from copyrighted sources, but you may not publish the whole article, book, etc., in your “Comment”.)
  8. You are solely responsible for the “Comment” you upload, post, transmit or otherwise make available to others using this Web Site. Under no circumstances will Discerning the World be liable in any way for any “Comment” posted on or made available through this Site by you or any third party.
  9. You understand that all “Comments” on this Site are pre-screened or moderated. That means that every “Comment” needs to be approved by Discerning the World before it appears in the “Comments” section.  This is not an automatic process.  Discerning the World does this for SPAM reasons.
  10. Discerning the World has the right (but not the obligation) in their sole unfettered discretion to remove any “Comment” that is posted on or available through the Site. Without limiting the foregoing, Discerning the World has the right to remove any “Comment” that violates these Terms or is otherwise deemed objectionable by Discerning the World in its sole discretion.
  11. You understand that Discerning the World in their sole unfettered discretion is not obligated and can not be forced in any manner, be it legal or otherwise to remove any “Comment” that is posted on or made available through the Site by you.
  12. When submitting a “Comment,” you will be asked to provide your name and your email address. While Discerning the World does not object to your use of a pseudonym instead of your actual name, Discerning the World reserves the right, but not the obligation, to reject, change, disallow, or discontinue at any time any submission name that, in Discerning the World’s sole unfettered discretion, is objectionable or inappropriate for any reason. Discerning the World requires the submission of your email address, but Discerning the World warrants that it will not publish your email address to an outside third party without your consent.
  13. Discerning the World does not sell or rent your personal information to third parties for their marketing purposes. From time to time, Discerning the World may contact you personally via email. Notwithstanding the foregoing, you acknowledge and understand that the “Comments” feature of the Site is designed to permit users to post information and commentary for public review and comment and thus you hereby waive any expectation of privacy you may have concerning any likeness or information provided to the Site by you.
  14. You are solely responsible for your interactions with other users of or visitors to the Site.
    1. Discerning the World shall have the right, but not the obligation, to monitor interactions utilizing the “Comments” facility of the Site, between you and other users of or visitors to the Site. You acknowledge and agree that Discerning the World, or any third party shall not be, and you shall not seek to hold them, responsible for any harm or damage whatsoever arising in connection with your interaction with other users of or visitors to the Site.
    2. Discerning the World does not verify any information posted to or communicated via the “Comments” sections of the Site by users and does not guarantee the proper use of such information by any party who may have access to the information. You acknowledge and agree that Discerning the World does not assume, and shall not have, any responsibility for the content of messages or other communications sent or received by users of the Site.
  15. The Site contains content created by or on behalf of Discerning the World as well as content provided by third parties.
    1. Discerning the World does not control, and makes no representations or warranties about, any third party content, including such content that may be accessible directly on the Site or through links from the Site to third party sites.
    2. You acknowledge that, by viewing the Site or communications transmitted through the Site, you may be exposed to third party content that is false, offensive or otherwise objectionable to you or others, and you agree that under no circumstances shall Discerning the World be liable in any way, under any theory, for any third party content.
    3. You acknowledge and agree that the Site, and the contents thereof, is proprietary to Discerning the World and is protected by copyright. You agree that you will not access or use the Site or any of the content thereof for any reason or purpose other than your personal, non-commercial use.
    4. You agree that you will not systematically retrieve data or other content from the Site by any means, and you will not compile a database or directory of information extracted from the Site.
    5. You agree that you will not reproduce, distribute or make derivative works of the Site or any of the contents thereof without the express consent of Discerning the World.
    6. You hereby agree to indemnify, defend and hold harmless Discerning the World, its affiliates and licensees, and all of their officers, directors, employees, agents and representatives from and against any and all liabilities, losses, claims, damages, and expenses (including attorneys’ fees) in connection with any claim arising out of your use of the Site or violation of any of these Terms.



16. These Terms constitute the entire agreement between Discerning the World and you with respect to the subject matter hereof, and supersede any previous oral or written agreement between us with respect to such subject matter.

Thank you!