Church Team Ministries International (CTMI) – Preaches like a Cult, Acts like a Cult, Must be a Cult

Deborah (Discerning the World)

Discerning the World is an internet Discernment ministry based in Johannesburg South Africa that was founded by Deborah du Rand in 2008. Tom Lessing joined Deborah in May 2013. Tom Lessing founded the website "Waak en Bid/Watch and Pray" which was closed in 2013 and articles moved across to DTW.

20 Responses

  1. Martin Horan says:

    A great article by Victoria John and a really insightful testimony by Catriona!
    CTMI is a classic cult.
    All cult people at the top–in the image of Benny Hinn, Katherine Kuhlman, Herbert W. Armsrong, &c., &c., &c.,–have luxurious lifestyles, pay their workers little or nothing and have all their minions believing that they are next to God and that it is only through them they can get to God.
    This makes their disciples feel that their manipulation is NOT manipulation but a God-send and that they have a corner on truth no-one else has. They imagine that everything they give up in time, labour and money is for God. So they cannot see that they are serving a person, or persons, and are puting them on a par with God. They are unwittingly making themselves idolaters.
    I hasten to add that these cult leaders pay their inner circles of leaders top salaries. That “proves” to their minions that the cult’s inner circle are also well-beloved and blessed of God by their financial prosperity. It is also an impetus to each member that, if they work hard to serve their leaders through such devotion and sacrifice, God may well find them a place in that elite.
    They make sure that their minions don’t think objectively by claiming through sermons, and in their own publications, that all critical thoughts are of the devil and must be rejected. That’s not my opinion. It is taken from my personal observations as a former member of the Worldwide Church of God.
    It is also interesting that CTMI recruit those from well-off and “educated” families. That’s because they know that “educated” people are often not objective. The leaders of CTMI, as the leaders of other cults, can see how many educated people believe in an unproven and unprovable theory like evolution, how many of them listen to and believe politicians who have lied to them over and over, and how many educated people go to universities to come out of them with lots of knowledge but without any discernment or objectivity. And the plus for the cult leaders is that the masses generally are unaware of those things and are impressed with people who have academic qualifications. So, having roped in educated people–and wealthy people who are equally subjective–it gives a show of respectability to outsiders and can even attract them to want to be part of their elite club. It also gives them credibility.
    CTMI leadership and the leaders of all cults think along the same lines.
    You will never find a cult member who thinks they are brainwashed or deceived.
    When I was a member of the Worldwide Church of God, Herbert W. Armstrong would forever state and publish his mantra: “A deceived person doesn’t know he/she is deceived or they wouldn’t be deceived.” And it not only made his disciples think that all the world was deceived except for them, but it made them think that they could never be deceived.
    That’s how subtle the serpent is.
    It’s interesting that CTMI are so secretive to outsiders. Benny Hinn (see book, “The Confusing World of Benny Hinn”), Bonke, Armstrongites, and all other cults, work in the same way. They are on the lookout for outside spies and weed them out promptly. Paranoia is the fruit of being deceitful. Also, when people are manipulators they think everyone else is out to manipulate them.
    It doesn’t matter who or what the cult is. They all work alike.
    Satan knows how to use the things that always work for him. That’s why he loves religion. All religion appeals to the senses–for all religions, unlike real Christianity, are based on Satan’s ways of doing things. True Christianity is not religious. It was the religious elite of Jesus’ Own day that handed Him over to be crucified by another religious people.
    No religion has grace. It’s all about works. CTMI is one of the many examples. Some cults, however, are more subtle than others.
    But Satan doesn’t only work in religion as such. He works in politics too. Even so, there is a religous element to those political systems.
    A study of Nazi-ism and Communism exposes that Spirit at work. For example, many of the Nazis were religious men as you can see by a cursory study of that “philosophy”. Many of the top Nazis were occultists and had gone to Jesuit schools. Indeed, Hitler publicly called Goebels his “Ignatius of Loyola” and the elite of the Catholic church endorsed his work. Indeed, so did some German Protestant churches.
    However, Communism works in a similar way. It claims to be atheist but we shouldn’t let that fool us. Buddhism is an atheistic religion. (Some of its proponents foolishly claim that it is not a religion when it is very obviously a religion. In fact, all of its schools are religions.) And Communism is still a kind of religious atheism. One has only to think back to the idolatry of Marxism, Leninism, Stalinism and Maoism and the mindless parading of their masses under massive portraits, banners and flags. Their leaders–cruel despots and psychopaths–were idolised long after their deaths.
    Daily, masses of Russians would be in endless queues to pass Lenin’s entombed body in the Kremlin. They often did so in sub-zero temperatures, to get a mere glimpse of their dead god. Now, if that’s not religion and idol worship, then what is?
    The point I am trying to make, is that religion is deep in the heart of man and it is a hard thing to eradicate. Cults of all kinds, whether secular or so-called sacred, know how to appeal to the religious spirit in human beings–whether they know they are doing so or not. One thing is sure: Satan, who controls these mind manipulators, does know.
    I am not saying that all cult leaders know they are actually doing the Satan’s work or know they are are manipulated by the devil. I’m fairly sure that some will genuinely think they are doing the Lord’s work [Matt 7:21-23]. But I reckon most of those leaders are as atheist as Lenin and Stalin. Otherwise they could not act as overtly as they do in such blatant defiance of God.
    The truly sad thing is, the people who are deceived and trapped in these cults believe that they are doing God’s will. The scary thing, apparently, is that being deceived is no less a sin than being a deceiver [2 Tim 3:13].
    I enjoyed the way the article handled CTMI as it was an excellent exposure–though it was sad to see how it ruins people’s lives. The more exposure of cults the better.
    The thing that is very difficult is getting people out of cults once they are in them. The article shows that.
    I have read lots of great exposures on cults, even when I was in one. But the odd thing was, I never applied what I’d read to the cult I was in!
    And there’s the rub. People in cults do read about other cults and agree with those exposures. What they cannot agree about is any exposures relating to their own cult. They simply see them as satanic attacks. That’s what we have to deal with. And it is a really difficult thing to deal with anyone’s subjectivity, let alone when it is regarding their own cult.
    For example, there was a famous writer called Dr Walter Martin who exposed cults. While he wrote many books on cults, he refused to write anything bad about the world’s largest and most infulential cult–Roman Catholicism. Having been educated at Roman Catholic schools it struck me as surprising, to say the least, that he would never write anything against the Catholic Church. Many cults themselves expose Catholicism, so members of those cults would see Martin’s exposing of theirs as selective, if not hypocritical. And I agree with them; certainly to his being seclective.
    To my mind the world’s largest cult ought to have been high on Martin’s priorities and it was not. So we have to be careful in dealing with cults especially if they what they consider to be a worse cult than their own being ignored. Still, any cult must be dealt with nevertheless.
    One thing about the above exposure on CTMI is that it cannot be seen to be selective. DTW deals with every movement that is false!
    Anyway, having been educated in the world’s largest cult, and a member of another for around twenty years, I have often thought it may be a good thing to write on reasons WHY people join cults. I did write a book on why folk join cults and sent it to a publisher who sent me a few relevant points where I could change it. After reading the above article, I realize I need to get back to completing it and make the changes as I think it could help people to relate to cult members–to know where they are coming from.
    So the article and testimony have inspired me to get down to it.
    Meanwhile, though, the deception goes on and it’s good to see it is still being challenged. Cults still divide families and ruin lives where those in them think they are being saved–tragically! That’s perhaps the worst thing they actually do.
    It is depressing to see that cults still flourish, especially as we get nearer to the end. But we have to look to Jesus Christ. He is still in charge, not Satan. At least we know his time gets shorter by the minute.

  2. Lisa says:

    Can I or you tell if an organization is a cult?
    It is an international missions organization that sends teenagers to various sites in the world to do missions work. they do other missions work too.
    How will I know?

  3. Carolyn says:

    @Martin – read through your comment yesterday. Just a few thoughts as I can identify with much of what you are saying about cults:

    You said, “When I was a member of the Worldwide Church of God, Herbert W. Armstrong would forever state and publish his mantra: “A deceived person doesn’t know he/she is deceived or they wouldn’t be deceived.” And it not only made his disciples think that all the world was deceived except for them, but it made them think that they could never be deceived.”

    Elitism is deception…been there.

    When I was caught in the 7th Day heresies, I was listening to their seminars and then coming home and pouring over what Walter Martin said about “the Christian cult” 7th Day. The arguments that he made were not as good as their arguments in my thinking. So it was not Walter Martin that set me free…it was Christ revealing his Word to me after much prayer. My eyes were opened!

    You said: “I am not saying that all cult leaders know they are actually doing the Satan’s work or know they are are manipulated by the devil. I’m fairly sure that some will genuinely think they are doing the Lord’s work [Matt 7:21-23].”

    I think most false prophets are themselves deceived which is why they are so convincing. They have believed their own lies. Then of course there are the con artists who have discovered how easy it is to make money off scamming the gullible sheep.

    One thing that simplifies avoiding those who would lead into error or cults is watching what they do with the Word. Do they supersede it? Do they replace it? Do they change it? Do they add to it? Do they subtract from it? Are they afraid of it? No Christian leader who is a true Shepherd will be afraid to study the word and encourage everyone around him to do the same (for themselves). Satan’s agenda depends on a unified, concerted effort to diminish, disqualify, disassemble, disdain and distort the Word of God. By then no one has a chance of being saved by faith, for it is only through hearing the Word that faith is empowered.

    Revelation 19:9
    Then the angel said to me, “Write this: Blessed are those who are invited to the wedding supper of the Lamb!” And he added, “These are the true words of God.”

    Revelation 22:18
    I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this scroll: If anyone adds anything to them, God will add to that person the plagues described in this scroll.

    The Word that has revealed himself to mankind and cannot be tampered with by man or angel on penalty of eternal punishment. Take heed!

  4. Carolyn says:

    This addendum is thanks to Marion…there I go using the NIV again…I spent a lot of time in the NIV and it’s a habit that’s hard to break…

    Anyhow, here is the more complete KJV of Revelation 22:18-19 (KJV) For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: 19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

  5. Deborah (Discerning the World) says:

    Lisa

    Yes you can by what they preach and how they behave towards their congregation. Who are you referring to?

  6. Zoe Mlangeni says:

    Wow!!! I was searching for something under false teachers and came across your website. My question is how does one leave these type of churches, I am currently stuck in one such ministry, money is demanded ofcourse subtley in the ‘do something for your fathers house’ sermons and time Oh my word there are activties 6 of the 7 days of the week and its mandatory if youre a ‘worker’. What started me out on this journey is the toxic relationship I have with the senior pastor. I only realise now that it was all minupilation at its best and all conversations always started with ‘you know I am close with you’. I really just want to get out and I dont want to leave in a pile of hatred and bitterness. Please help

  7. Deborah (Discerning the World) says:

    Dear Dear Zoe

    No where in the bible are you forced to be in a situation like this, as you know yourself it’s wrong. Because these people follow false teaching and their hearts are already full of hatred and bitterness so there is nothing you can do to change the situation. I strongly suggest you pray and ask Jesus’ protection over you and then just do it, hand in your resignation if you must hand in a resignation, pack your stuff and leave. Get out, do not let them try and convince you otherwise. Arrange for someone to pick you up, or if you have a car, get it in a drive and do not look back. You are dealing with people who are maligned with evil spirits, and the bible says you need to get away from people like this… so, make a run for it.

    Once you are out, come back here and we can deal with the after effects, the trauma of what you have gone through ok?

    much love to you
    Debs

  8. Redeemed says:

    Zoe, I pray God’s protection over you and that He would give you courage and a peace and trust in Him that you are obeying Him and fleeing from evil as the Bible tells us to do.

    Do not fear what man can do to you, it is the Lord we are to please. We must be wise, and Deborah has given you good counsel.

    Please keep in touch and let us know how you are doing. You will find this a safe place where people care about you.

  9. John Chingford says:

    Hi Zoe

    Join the club!!!

    Please read this following article of mine. It may help:

    [removed]

  10. Zoe says:

    Thank you, thank you, thank you all for your advise I will certainly lean on the wonderful articles on this website.

  11. Quetin Trollip says:

    I am desperate to know more of what is happening in the church

  12. Deborah (Discerning the World) says:

    Quentin Trollip

    Read this blog

  13. Quetin Trollip says:

    I hate what your church does

  14. Angel says:

    Hi!
    Anyone knows about Francis Chan? I know he is from the jesuits school. But I should like to know more whats behind his Calling?
    Truth Always in (but the One and only True Christ!

  15. Quetin Trollip says:

    Quetin Trollip wrote:

    I hate what your church does

    Hell has a special hole for all the so called pastors stealing poor peoples money

  16. Maresu says:

    Bonjour, l’Eglise de notre Seigneur va mal ?
    Pourquoi ? Le jour où vous vous déciderez non pas de vous nommer un prophète que vous avez désigné afin qu’il soit selon vos convictions et vos convenances, cela ira de mieux en mieux.
    Demandez à Dieu de vous en donner un vrai. Mais ce sera difficile car lorsqu’on édite un livre sur les 5 ministères et qu’on oublie de dire que les prophètes ne sont soumis qu’aux seuls prophètes, on comprend vite l’esprit qui anime celui qui a oublié cela.

    Notre église actuelle fonctionne sur le modèle catholique. Comment on s’en sort ?
    Le vrai fonctionnement est dans 1 corinthiens.

    Je ne pense pas qu’il faille tout expliquer, Dieu en passant par Paul a tout décrit.

    Anciens = surveillants de l’activité de l’Esprit, ils peuvent intervenir de 2 façons :

    1) valider ou pas, une activité spirituelle. (attention, si vous n’êtes pas assez humble, cela vous sera impossible de vous humilier). Les anciens savent ce qu’une brebis peut accepter ou pas, comme de bons bergers.
    2) Ils peuvent, si le Saint Esprit les éclaire sur un sujet (sujet toujours empli d’amour et cela même dans la réprimande afin que la Brebis ne se perde pas), apporter une correction qui encouragera la brebis, la mettant ainsi à l’abri des flèches.

    Différence entre élevage et pâturage.

    Dans le fonctionnement actuel catholique qui relève de l’élevage, toutes les brebis sont passives, elles sont da ns un enclos et sont nourris par le curé.
    Notre fonctionnement est le même, mis à part qu’il y a des anciens.
    Dans la semaine ou le dimanche, un ancien peut nourrir ses brebis (attention, beaucoup de messages et de thèmes proviennent d’Internet).

    Pour rétablir l’Eglise dans sa plénitude la plus totale, il faut, par amour, faire paître les brebis.

    Après qu’ils eurent mangé, Jésus dit à Simon Pierre: Simon, fils de Jonas, m’aimes-tu plus que ne m’aiment ceux-ci? Il lui répondit: Oui, Seigneur, tu sais que je t’aime. Jésus lui dit: Pais mes agneaux.
    Nouveau Testament » Les Evangiles » Jean » chapitre 21 » verset 15
    Il lui dit une seconde fois: Simon, fils de Jonas, m’aimes-tu? Pierre lui répondit: Oui, Seigneur, tu sais que je t’aime. Jésus lui dit: Pais mes brebis.
    Nouveau Testament » Les Evangiles » Jean » chapitre 21 » verset 16
    Il lui dit pour la troisième fois: Simon, fils de Jonas, m’aimes-tu? Pierre fut attristé de ce qu’il lui avait dit pour la troisième fois: M’aimes-tu? Et il lui répondit: Seigneur, tu sais toutes choses, tu sais que je t’aime. Jésus lui dit: Pais mes brebis.
    Nouveau Testament » Les Evangiles » Jean » chapitre 21 » verset 17
    Qu’est ce que faire paître un troupeau ?

    Puisque nous sommes frères en Christ, la question suivante propose un modèle parfait de fonctionnement de la véritable église de Dieu.

    Comment doit fonctionner l’église si un ministère l’accueille ?
    Réponse : les dons du Saint Esprit ne s’expriment pas ce jour là.
    Il y a priorité sur le ministère.

    Quand le ministère part pour une autre église, le fonctionnement qui est de faire paître le troupeau, reprend.

    Les dons des brebis se manifestent à nouveau.
    L’une aura le don des miracles, l’autre aura le don d’encourager, l’autre de proposer un chant “inspiré”, l’autre de prophétiser (il est prioritaire), l’autre de guérir tous les malades, l’autre d’apporter son soutien aux plus faibles, l’autre de s’occuper des pauvres… Cette liste n’a pas de fin.

    Message d’inspiration prophétique s’appuyant sur :
    21:24 C’est ce disciple qui rend témoignage de ces choses, et qui les a écrites. Et nous savons que son témoignage est vrai.
    21:25 Jésus a fait encore beaucoup d’autres choses; si on les écrivait en détail, je ne pense pas que le monde même pût contenir les livres qu’on écrirait.

    En 3 ans de ministère, Jésus a beaucoup parlé et agit mais si nous compilons son temps de paroles, Il n’a parlé qu’une heure. Où se trouve le reste ?
    Réponse : en Lui.

    Exemple : Un jour, un homme traîna sa femme devant Jésus en disant : “Cette femme ne m’écoute jamais, pourtant, ne suis-je pas plus grand qu’elle”?
    Jésus se tournant vers la foule dit : “Ne montrez pas à votre femme que vous êtes plus grand qu’elle mais montrez lui plutôt au combien elle est grande dans votre cœur”.

    Autre exemple : Un jour, un homme s’approcha de Jésus et lui dit ceci : “Je suis marié mais ma femme se détourne de moi. Que dois je faire ?
    Jésus lui répondit : “parles tu à ta femme ? Ecoutes tu ta femme ? Prends tu soin de ta femme ? La conduis tu vers notre Dieu ?
    L’homme répondit : “non, je ne fais pas tout ça”.
    Alors Jésus lui dit : “Elle n’est pas ta femme”.
    -Rabbi, regarde, j’ai le rouleau qui confirme devant la Loi qu’elle est ma femme.
    Jésus lui dit : “le mariage n’est pas un rouleau mais de l’amour”.

    autre exemple : Un jour, Jésus posa une question à ses disciples : “Quel est selon vous le jeûne que mon Père préfère ?
    Un lui répondit : “il ne faut le dire à personne”. Alors Jésus répondit : “quand tu jeûnes, prépare ton repas et donne le à celui qui a faim car le vrai jeûne c’est de l’amour”.

    Autre exemple : “Rabbi, beaucoup pensent que tu es le Roi d’Israël, est ce vrai ?
    Jésus répondit ceci : “Quel est le vrai roi, celui qui se fait servir ou celui qui est au service de son peuple ? L’Homme ne put répondre.
    Un jour, un homme s’approcha de Jésus et lui posa cette question : ” pourquoi tu as dit que tu étais la lumière du monde ?
    Jésus lui dit : “c’est parce qu’au fond de l’Homme, il y a des ténèbres.

    Autre exemple : Un jour Jésus posa cette question à ses disciples : “Quel est le contraire de l’amour” ?
    Tous lui répondirent, Rabbi, la réponse est trop facile, c’est la haine et tous furent d’accord.
    Alors Jésus leur dit : “Moi et Mon Père, nous avons la haine du mal”.
    Je vous le dis en vérité, le contraire de l’amour c’est l’oubli car quand vous oubliez un homme c’est que vous ne l’avez pas assez aimé”.

    Qui autorisa un prophète de la nouvelle alliance dans son église ?
    Seuls ceux qui aiment la Vérité.

    Laurent M.

    ———————–
    EDITED BY DTW ADDED BELOW ROUGH ENGLISH TRANSLATION

    Hello, the Church of our Lord goes wrong?
    Why? The day you decide not to appoint you as a prophet you designate to make it according to your beliefs and your convenience, it will get better and better.
    Ask God to give you a true. But it will be difficult because when editing a book on the 5 ministries and forget to say that prophets are subject only to prophets, you soon realize the spirit of one who has forgotten that.

    Our current church works on the Catholic model. How do we get out?
    The real operation is in 1 Corinthians.

    I do not think we should explain everything, God through Paul described all.

    Veterans = monitors the activity of the Spirit, they can occur in 2 ways:

    1) validate or not a spiritual activity. (Note: if you are not humble enough, this will be impossible for you to humiliate you). The old know what a sheep can accept or not, as good shepherds.
    2) They can, if the Holy Spirit enlighten them on a subject (subject always full of love and even in the rebuke that the sheep is not lost), a correction that will encourage flock, thus putting to shelter arrows.

    Difference between livestock and pasture.

    In the current operation that falls Catholic livestock, all the sheep are passive, they are da ns a paddock and are fed by the priest.
    Our operation is the same, except that there are elders.
    In the week or Sunday, an old can feed His sheep (warning, many messages and themes come from the Internet).

    To restore the Church in its total fullness, it is necessary for love to graze sheep.

    After they had dined, Jesus saith to Simon Peter, Simon, son of John, do you love me more than they love me? He answered, Yes, Lord, you know I love you. Jesus said to him, Feed my lambs.
    New Testament “Gospels” John “chapter 21” Verse 15
    He said to him a second time, Simon, son of John, do you love me? Peter answered him: Yes, Lord, you know I love you. Jesus saith unto him, Feed my sheep.
    New Testament “Gospels” John “chapter 21” Verse 16
    He said to him the third time, Simon, son of John, do you love me? Peter was grieved because he had said to him the third time: Do you love me? And he answered him, Lord, you know everything; you know that I love you. Jesus saith unto him, Feed my sheep.
    New Testament “Gospels” John “chapter 21” Verse 17
    What graze a herd?

    Since we are brothers in Christ, the question provides a perfect model of operation of the true church of God.

    How the church must function if a department welcomes?
    Answer: the gifts of the Holy Spirit do not speak that day.
    There has priority over the ministry.

    When the ministry left for another church, the operation which is to feed the flock, resumes.

    Donations sheep occur again.
    One will have the gift of miracles, the other the gift will encourage the other to suggest a song “inspired”, the other to prophesy (has priority), the other to heal all the sick, the other to support the weak, the other to take care of the poor … The list is endless.

    Prophetic inspiration message based on:
    9:24 p.m. This is the disciple who testifies to these things and who wrote them. And we know that his testimony is true.
    9:25 p.m. Jesus did many other things; if they were written in detail, I do not think the world itself could not contain the books that would be written.

    In 3 years of ministry, Jesus talked a lot and is but if we compile time words, He spoke for an hour. Where is the rest?
    Answer: in Him.

    Example: One day, a man dragged his wife before Jesus saying, “This woman never listens to me, though, I’m not taller than her?”
    Jesus turned to the crowd said, “Do not show your wife that you are taller than her but rather to show him how big it is in your heart.”

    Another example: One day a man approached Jesus and said this: “I am married but my wife away from me. What should I do?
    Jesus answered, “you speak to your wife? Listens you your wife? You take care of your wife? The drive you to our God?
    The man replied, “No, I do not do all that.”
    Then Jesus said, “She is not your wife.”
    -Rabbi, Look, I roll to the Act confirming that she is my wife.
    Jesus said, “Marriage is not a roll but love.”

    Another example: One day Jesus asked a question to his disciples, “What do you think fasting of my Father prefer?
    One replied, “we must tell anyone.” Then Jesus said, “when you fast, prepare your meals and give it to the hungry because the true fast is to love.”

    Another example: “Rabbi, many believe that thou art the King of Israel, is it true?
    Jesus said this: “What is the true king, who is serving or who has served his people? Man could not answer.
    One day a man approached Jesus and asked him this question: “why you said you were the light of the world?
    Jesus said, “it’s because deep Rights, there is darkness.

    Another example: One day Jesus asked his disciples this question: “What is the opposite of love”?
    All answered him, Rabbi, the answer is too easy, it’s hatred and all agreed.
    Then Jesus said, “I and My Father, we have to hate evil.”
    I tell you in truth, the opposite of love is forgotten because when you forget a man is that you have not loved enough. ”

    Which authorized a prophet of the new covenant in his church?
    Only those who love the Truth.

    Laurent M.

  17. Deborah (Discerning the World) says:

    FRENCH TRANSLATION (I hope it’s ok)

    Laurent Maresu

    Ok je me débattais un peu à comprendre ce que vous disiez, mais l’objectif principal que je vois est que vous croyez que les prophètes et de la prophétie (prédisant l’avenir) est pour aujourd’hui. Permettez-moi de vous citer quelques-uns Ecriture qui dit prophètes et de la prophétie (prédisant l’avenir) ne sont pas pour aujourd’hui.

    Jésus-Christ était le dernier et le plus grand prophète

    Hébreux 1: 1-2 “1 Dieu, qui à plusieurs reprises et dans diverses manières, parlé dans le temps passé aux pères par les prophètes, 2 a, en ces derniers jours, nous a parlé par le Fils, qu’il a établi héritier de toutes choses , à travers lequel il a aussi créé le monde; ”

    Le don de prophétie a cessé.

    1 Corinthiens 8-10 (Amp) “8 amour ne disparaît jamais [ne se fane jamais ou devient désuet ou prend fin] Quant à la prophétie (le don de l’interprétation de la volonté divine et le but), il sera respecté et passer loin. que pour les langues, ils seront détruits et cessent, comme pour la connaissance, il passera [il perdra sa valeur et être remplacée par la vérité].
    9 Pour notre connaissance est fragmentaire (incomplète et imparfaite), et de notre prophétie (notre enseignement) est fragmentaire (incomplète et imparfaite).
    10 Mais lorsque la complète et parfaite (total) vient, l’imparfait et incomplet sera disparaîtra (devenu désuet, nulle et remplacée) ”

    – Voir plus: http://www.discerningtheworld.com/2011/01/17/are-prophets-for-today-or-has-prophecy-ceased

    Ayant prophètes ou non ayant prophètes ne fait pas de véritable église. Si ceci est ce que vous allez par comme un bâton de mesure, puis adventistes du septième jour doit faire partie de la véritable Église aussi bien qu’ils ont leur prophétesse Ellen G. White. Mais nous savons que adventistes du septième jour sont un culte. Alors maintenant, quoi?

    Nous avons besoin de plus prophètes de parler pour nous, nous avons le parfait, qui est la Parole de Dieu, Jésus-Christ sous forme imprimée. Tout ce que nous devons savoir est là.

    —————-
    ENSLIGH

    Laurent

    Ok I struggled a bit to understand what you were saying but the main focus I see is that you believe that prophets and prophecy (foretelling of the future) is for today. Let me quote you some scripture that says prophets and prophecy (foretelling of the future) is not for today.

    Jesus Christ was the LAST and GREATEST Prophet

    Hebrews 1:1-2 “1 God, who at various times and in various ways spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets, 2 has in these last days spoken to us by His Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the worlds;”

    The gift of prophecy has ceased.

    1 Corinthians 8-10 (Amp) “8 Love never fails [never fades out or becomes obsolete or comes to an end]. As for prophecy (the gift of interpreting the divine will and purpose), it will be fulfilled and pass away; as for tongues, they will be destroyed and cease; as for knowledge, it will pass away [it will lose its value and be superseded by truth].
    9 For our knowledge is fragmentary (incomplete and imperfect), and our prophecy (our teaching) is fragmentary (incomplete and imperfect).
    10 But when the complete and perfect (total) comes, the incomplete and imperfect will vanish away (become antiquated, void, and superseded)”

    – See more at: http://www.discerningtheworld.com/2011/01/17/are-prophets-for-today-or-has-prophecy-ceased

    Having prophets or not having prophets does not make a true church. If this is what you go by as a measuring stick, then Seventh Day Adventists must be part of the true church as well as they have their prophetess Ellen G. White. But we know that Seventh Day Adventists are a cult. So now what?

    We no longer need prophets to speak for us, we have the PERFECT, that is the WORD OF GOD, Jesus Christ in printed form. EVERYTHING we need to know is in there.

  18. Maresu says:

    Bonsoir Madame,
    Dieu a donné à l’église 5 ministères, pourquoi ? Citez le verset qui supprime le ministère prophétique que vous confondez avec le don de la prophétie que vous interprétez comme annoncer des choses avant qu’elles ne surviennent.
    Annoncer n’est qu’un aspect de ce ministère. Le ministère prophétique est un ministère de révélation.
    Et cette révélation nous montre que le fonctionnement actuel de nos églises n’est pas conforme au fonctionnement décrit par notre frère, l’apôtre Paul dans 1 Corinthiens. La restauration totale de l’église permettra à notre apôtre de cesser d’affirmer que l’église “va mal”, je peux vous l’annoncer.
    Vous constaterez que l’apôtre Paul, dans toutes ses missives s’adresse au peuple de Dieu. Pourquoi selon vous ?
    Vous affirmez que Jésus est le dernier des prophètes mais Il continue à parler. Comment cela est possible ? Tout simplement parce que Jésus habite en nous et que nous sommes son temple.

    Ce passage est une preuve évidente que Jésus, le plus grand des Prophètes vit toujours et qu’Il parle toujours, sa mort n’a pas pu mettre un terme à son ministère prophétique, toujours actif comme pour les autres ministères.

    17:18 Comme tu m’as envoyé dans le monde, je les ai aussi envoyés dans le monde.

    17:19 Et je me sanctifie moi-même pour eux, afin qu’eux aussi soient sanctifiés par la vérité.

    17:20 Ce n’est pas pour eux seulement que je prie, mais encore pour ceux qui croiront en moi par leur parole,

    17:21 afin que tous soient un, comme toi, Père, tu es en moi, et comme je suis en toi, afin qu’eux aussi soient un en nous, pour que le monde croie que tu m’as envoyé.

    17:22 Je leur ai donné la gloire que tu m’as donnée, afin qu’ils soient un comme nous sommes un, –

    17:23 moi en eux, et toi en moi, -afin qu’ils soient parfaitement un, et que le monde connaisse que tu m’as envoyé et que tu les as aimés comme tu m’as aimé.

    17:24 Père, je veux que là où je suis ceux que tu m’as donnés soient aussi avec moi, afin qu’ils voient ma gloire, la gloire que tu m’as donnée, parce que tu m’as aimé avant la fondation du monde.

    17:25 Père juste, le monde ne t’a point connu; mais moi je t’ai connu, et ceux-ci ont connu que tu m’as envoyé.

    17:26 Je leur ai fait connaître ton nom, et je le leur ferai connaître, afin que l’amour dont tu m’as aimé soit en eux, et que je sois en eux.

    Ne savez-vous pas que votre corps est le temple du saint Esprit qui est en vous, que vous avez reçu de Dieu, et que vous ne vous appartenez point à vous-mêmes?

    Nouveau Testament » Les Epîtres de Paul » 1 Corinthiens » chapitre 6 » verset 19

    Jésus confirme qu’Il est en nous. Mais chaque ministère a une fonction bien précise.
    En aucun cas, Dieu dit que les ministères prendront fin, pour les dons cela est vrai mais nous n’en savons pas la date. Ce qui est certain c’est que les 5 ministères nous amèneront à la perfection. On pourrait donc penser que lorsque beaucoup de brebis auront atteint ce perfectionnement, Jésus redescendra prendre son épouse sans tâche, immaculée donc parfaite. Alors seulement on pourra envisager que les 5 ministères pourront disparaître, ayant rempli la fonction que Dieu leur avait donné : perfectionner le peuple de Dieu.

    4:9 Or, que signifie: Il est monté, sinon qu’il est aussi descendu dans les régions inférieures de la terre?

    4:10 Celui qui est descendu, c’est le même qui est monté au-dessus de tous les cieux, afin de remplir toutes choses.

    4:11 Et il a donné les uns comme apôtres, les autres comme prophètes, les autres comme évangélistes, les autres comme pasteurs et docteurs,

    4:12 pour le perfectionnement des saints en vue de l’oeuvre du ministère et de l’édification du corps de Christ,

    4:13 jusqu’à ce que nous soyons tous parvenus à l’unité de la foi et de la connaissance du Fils de Dieu, à l’état d’homme fait, à la mesure de la stature parfaite de Christ,

    4:14 afin que nous ne soyons plus des enfants, flottants et emportés à tout vent de doctrine, par la tromperie des hommes, par leur ruse dans les moyens de séduction,

    4:15 mais que, professant la vérité dans la charité, nous croissions à tous égards en celui qui est le chef, Christ.

    Bonsoir Madame.

    ——————–

    ENGLISH

    Good evening Madam,
    God gave the church five ministries, why? Quote the verse that removes the prophetic ministry that confuse you with the gift of prophecy that you interpret as announce things before they happen.
    Announce is only one aspect of this ministry. The prophetic ministry is a ministry of revelation.
    And this revelation shows that the current functioning of our churches is not in accordance to the operation described by our brother, the apostle Paul in 1 Corinthians. The total restoration of the church will allow our apostle stop claiming that the Church “goes wrong”, I can announce it.
    You will find that the apostle Paul, in all his letters is addressed to God’s people. Why do you?
    You claim that Jesus is the last of the prophets, but he continues to speak. How is this possible? Just because Jesus lives in us and we are His temple.

    This passage is a clear proof that Jesus, the greatest of the prophets still lives and that He still speaks, his death could not end his prophetic ministry, still active as in other ministries.

    5:18 p.m. As you sent me into the world, I have sent them into the world.

    5:19 p.m. I sanctify myself for them, that they also may be sanctified in truth.

    17:20 is not for them only do I pray, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;

    17:21 That they all may be one, as You, Father, are in Me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

    5:22 p.m. I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be one as we are one –

    5:23 p.m. I in them and thou in me, that they may become perfectly one, and that the world may know that thou hast sent me and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.

    5:24 p.m. Father, I will that where I am, those whom you have given me, be with me, that they may see my glory, the glory you have given me because you loved me before the foundation of the world.

    5:25 p.m. Righteous Father, the world hath not known thee; but I have known thee, and these have known that thou hast sent me.

    5:26 p.m. them I have manifested thy name, and I will make it known, that the love with which you loved me may be in them, and I in them.

    Know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your yourselves?

    New Testament “The Epistles of Paul” 1 Corinthians “Chapter 6” Verse 19

    Jesus confirms that He is in us. But each department has a specific function.
    In any case, God says that the departments will terminate, for donations that is true but we do not know the date. What is certain is that five ministries will lead us to perfection. One might therefore think that when many sheep have achieved this improvement, Jesus will descend take his wife spotless, immaculate so perfect. Only then we can consider that the 5 departments will disappear, having fulfilled the function that God had given them perfect the people of God.

    4: 9 Now what does he ascended, except that he also descended into the lower parts of the earth?

    4:10 He that descended is the same also that ascended above all the heavens to fill all things.

    4:11 And he gave some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, some pastors and teachers;

    4:12 to equip the saints for the work of ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ,

    4:13 until we all attain to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the fullness of Christ,

    4:14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, by their craftiness in deceitful plotting,

    4:15 But speaking the truth in love, may grow up in all things into Him who is the head, Christ.

    Good evening, madam.

  19. Our friend Maresu doesn’t know his tenses. He doesn’t know the difference between the simple past (spoke) and the present perfect simple (has spoken).

    Long ago, at many times and in many ways, God SPOKE to our fathers by the prophets, but in these last days he HAS SPOKEN to us by his Son, whom he appointed the heir of all things, through whom also he created the world. (Hebrews 1:1-2)

    Whereas the simple past tense (spoke) tells us that whatever was spoken in the past is spoken no more, the present perfect simple tense (has spoken) tells us that though a finished action lies in the past it is still speaking to us today. What does that mean in the context of Hebrews 1: 1 and 2? It simply means that Jesus’ death, burial and resurrection which happened at the commencement of these last days (on the day He was born of a virgin), is still speaking to us today. What more do we want? In fact, his death, burial and resurrection says everything we need to know. And that is precisely why Jesus once said, “But he answered them, “An evil and adulterous generation seeks for a sign, but no sign will be given to it except the sign of the prophet Jonah.” (in other words, His death, burial and resurrection). (Matthew 12:39).

    Maresu makes a big spiel about the five-fold ministry. Let us examine how accurate the prophecies are of these so-called super apostles of our time. On 23 June 2009 the leading figure of the New Apostolic Reformation, C Peter Wagner prophesied at a commissioning ceremony of Tod Bentley, in his Lakeland Church that . . .

    1) His power would increase.
    2) His authority would increased.
    3) His favour would increase.
    4) His influence would increase.
    5) His revelation would increase.

    A week later Tod Bentley’s five-fold increasing ministry fell flat on its face when ABC Nightline exposed his fraudulent healing ministry and when he divorced his wife after having an adulterous affair with a women while he was still married. Now, if this happened in the simple past both Tod Bentley and C. Peter Wagner as well as Rick Joyner who also attended the meeting in 2009 would have been stoned to death because that is what they did to adulterers and false prophets in the Old Testament.

    ————–
    FRENCH TRANSLATION

    Notre ami Maresu ne connaît pas ses les temps. Il ne sait pas la différence entre le passé simple (rayon) et le simple cadeau parfait (a parlé).

    Il ya bien longtemps, à plusieurs reprises et de plusieurs manières, Dieu a parlé à nos pères par les prophètes, mais dans ces derniers jours, il nous a parlé par son Fils, qu’il a établi héritier de toutes choses, par lequel il a aussi créé le monde . (Hébreux 1: 1-2)

    Alors que le passé simple (rayons) nous dit que tout ce qui a été dit dans le passé est parlé pas plus, le cadeau idéal temps simple (a parlé) nous dit que si une action finie réside dans le passé, il parle encore à nous aujourd’hui. Qu’est-ce que cela signifie dans le contexte d’Hébreux 1: 1 et 2? Cela signifie simplement que la mort, l’enterrement et la résurrection de Jésus, qui est arrivé au début de ces derniers jours (le jour où il est né d’une vierge), est encore de nous parler aujourd’hui. Que voulons-nous? En fait, sa mort, l’enterrement et la résurrection dit tout ce que nous devons savoir. Et qui est précisément pourquoi Jésus a dit: «Mais il leur répondit:« Une génération méchante et adultère demande un miracle, mais aucun signe sera donné d’autre signe que celui de Jonas. “(En d’autres termes, sa mort , l’enterrement et la résurrection). (Matthieu 12:39).

    Maresu fait une grande spiel sur le quintuple ministère. Examinons comment les prophéties sont exactes de ces soi-disant super-apôtres de notre temps. Le 23 Juin 2009, la figure de proue de la Réforme néo-apostolique, C Peter Wagner a prophétisé lors d’une cérémonie de mise en service de Tod Bentley, dans son Église que Lakeland. . .

    1) Sa puissance augmenterait.
    2) Son autorité serait augmenté.
    3) Sa faveur augmenterait.
    4) Son influence augmenterait.
    5) Sa révélation augmenterait.

    Une semaine plus tard cinq fois le ministère croissante de Tod Bentley est tombé à plat sur son visage quand ABC Nightline exposé son ministère de guérison frauduleuse et quand il a divorcé de sa femme après avoir eu une liaison adultère avec une femme alors qu’il était encore marié. Maintenant, si cela se produisait dans la simple à la fois Tod Bentley et C. Peter Wagner ainsi que Rick Joyner passé qui a également assisté à la réunion en 2009 aurait été lapidé à mort parce qu’il est ce qu’ils ont fait pour les adultères et de faux prophètes de l’Ancien Testament .

  20. Deborah (Discerning the World) says:

    Dear Maresu

    Please read this article: False Foundation of Five-Fold Ministry

    ——————-
    Cher Maresu

    S’il vous plaît lire cet article: Faux Fondation du quintuple ministère