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Church Team Ministries International (CTMI) – Preaches like a Cult, Acts like a Cult, Must be a Cult

New Jo’burg church has more than a whiff of cult

21 DEC 2012 04:00 – VICTORIA JOHN – Mail and Guardian –

Victoria John reported on an infamous Mauritius institution in 2009. When a new branch opened in Johannesburg, she took another look. If you attend a church service at Jo’burg North Christian Church in the Robin Hills Scout Hall you will be welcomed with open arms. At that first ­service you will not hear chilling stories  about the powerful mother church, Church Team Ministries International (CTMI), under whose umbrella this church sits. Instead, you will find a gathering of about 50 people of different ages and races listening attentively to their preacher.

You will not have an inkling of its alleged involvement in rape, the surgical sterilisation of congregants and arranged marriages. Because, on the outside, it looks like any other charismatic church, not one that has crossed the line between radical Christianity and a cult.

CTMI is a Christian group based in Mauritius with partner churches in France, Zimbabwe, the United Kingdom, the United States, Kenya and India. It claims to work “with more than 1000 churches in 25 countries, mainly in Africa”, according to its website.

The group’s Durban affiliate, Grace Gospel Church, opened in 2003 under the leadership of Basil O’Connell Jones. In 2011, the Jo’burg North Christian Church opened its doors in a leafy middle-class suburb not far from Randburg’s Cresta ­shopping mall.

Little is known about CTMI’s Mauritian founders, Miki and Audrey Hardy, who look like your average middle-aged couple, the sort at whom you would not look twice if you walked past them in a grocery store. The couple maintains a wary distance from everyone and everything outside the church that might hamper the recruitment of new members, so they are shrouded in mystery.

Stocked with deer for hunting
According to their website, the Hardys graduated from bible school in South Africa in 1980 and returned to their native Mauritius where they founded CTMI. They have two grown-up daughters who are also part of the church.

The Robin Hills Scout Hall in Robindale, the location of CTMI’s new Jo’burg affiliate. (Madelene Cronjé, M&G)
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The Hardys live in what former church member Howard Silk, who has been to their home, describes as a “palatial estate with tennis courts, stables, an infinity pool and a hill behind the house stocked with deer for hunting”.

Silk claims that the Hardys’ homes, including their beach villa in the Black River district of the island, were mostly built by artisans in the church, some of whom did the work “out of love” and for no pay. He says church members were also used to build the two church auditoriums in Trianon and Curepipe at the centre of the tropical island. Ex-members say they are dome-shaped, with state-of-the-art sound systems and seating for 3 200 and about 1 000 people respectively.

I first heard about the cult in 2009 when working as an intern journalist at the Independent on Saturday in Durban.

I was ­living with my parents and my father brought home a letter that a colleague showed him. It was doing the rounds of traditional, well-established Christian churches in the city’s affluent northern ­suburbs and warned about the “dangers” of CTMI.

At the office the next day I called one of the writers of that letter. It was the beginning of weeks of investigation and a four-year-long interest in a church that allegedly brainwashes young, educated people, encouraging them to abandon their families and studies and move to its headquarters in Mauritius.

Serious allegations
This church was different to the ones whose members might raise a few eyebrows when, in passionate moments, they speak in tongues and think the Twilight movies are evil. The allegations against CTMI were serious. In fact, the accusations made over the years in local Mauritian media had been so serious that they had prompted the government to launch an inquiry into the church in the late 1990s, but it seemed to lose momentum in 2000 with a change of government.

In November 2009 I wrote an article about the church and the heartbroken parents whose children had shunned them and their bright futures to give their lives to the church.

After it was published, Carte Blanche went to Mauritius to investigate an allegation by a Mauritian man that a non-governmental organisation linked to CTMI had kidnapped his children and other NGOs had been set up as fronts to raise money for the church.

But the extensive media coverage that followed, including interviews with church leaders, produced more questions than answers.

CTMI’s founders, Miki and Audrey Hardy, who allegedly live in luxury in Mauritius. (Supplied)
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CTMI’s founders, Miki and Audrey Hardy, who allegedly live in luxury in Mauritius. 

The church members I interviewed in 2009 were young, spirited people desperate to defend it against allegations of mind control.

“The church saved my life,” several told me, and the church leaders, who were polite, even warm, towards me, firmly denied the allegations.

Yet, as the weeks progressed, I began to get Facebook messages, phone calls and SMSes from church members imploring me to “do the right thing”, saying I had to open my eyes to the “bitterness in the hearts” of the concerned parents I had spoken to. They questioned my­ ­journalistic integrity as well as my personal values.

Happy now
One email, from a former fellow university student, said: “Vic, you know me.” He reminded me about what he was like with “drinking and … all that stuff at Rhodes [University]” where we had both studied and said he had changed and was happy now. I believed him. A former school friend harassed me with SMSes saying church members had prayed for me. “We spoke about you in the service today” and “I’m just trying to help you … what you’re doing is evil”. She did not want me to go to hell. I blocked her number.

I heard that church leaders, in response to my article, welcomed the “persecution” as a sign that members were living according to God’s plan.
But when I found out that the church had opened its doors in Johannesburg, where I now live, I had to take a second look. And so I headed off to the Robin Hills Scout Hall, where I was told by church leaders that God had brought me there.It was also evident that, apart from the disturbing accusations whipping around, many of the church’s members had not had any damaging experiences. The members in question were, in fact, over the age of 18 and some of their jobless, drug-addicted lives had been rescued from destruction because of their involvement in the church.

There was no unusual ritual or preaching. I was, however, approached by at least five church leaders who wanted my contact details and an explanation for my being there. Just “checking it out” was not good enough. I was early and in the half hour before the service started I was not left alone for more than a few seconds.

Were they excited about recruiting a new member? Or were they just being friendly and welcoming? One congregant told me over the phone weeks later: “These allegations you talk about are false. It’s just like any normal church. About the manipulation – it has not been like that for me.”

I went to Durban in September and called a church leader to arrange a meeting. He refused to comment, returning my questions with: “Are you married, Victoria? No? Do you have a boyfriend? If you are not prepared to answer these questions, then how can you ask us such personal questions about our lives? You need to question your own heart.”

Formal questions sent to the church’s headquarters in Mauritius about ongoing as well as more recent allegations went unanswered.

So where does a church end and a cult begin? Experts reel off characteristics: zealous and unquestioning commitment to its leaders, distance from family and friends, members radically changing their personal goals and activities after joining the group, unreasonable fear of outside views, leadership dictating how members should act, such as getting permission to marry, ­prescrib­ing what types of clothes to wear, where to live and how to discipline children, and the expectation that members devote excessive amounts of time and energy to the group.Absolute control
That is exactly the sort of behaviour that former church members and their family describe in excruciating detail. Diana Bradford, a South African, moved to Mauritius with her husband in 1990 to join the church. She posted on the Concerned Parents Forum – a site set up to educate people about CTMI – about how members were told to give at least 60% of their salary to the Hardys and were even encouraged to hand over signing powers to their bank accounts. Members had to get permission to go on holiday, wives had to be totally subservient and children were to be disciplined with corporal ­punishment. Former members said that girls were not allowed to wear skirts or shorts above the knee and had to swim in the sea fully clothed.
But one of the most startling accusations involves a group of men and women who allegedly underwent surgical sterilisation in 1997. Under pressure from church leaders, Mauritian Patrick Monasie told me he had encouraged his wife to be sterilised. She eventually complied. She was 30 years old.Couples could then be free to “serve the Lord, to have place in our homes to take other children from the church who came from outside”, said Monasie, who was a member for more than 20 years before he left three years ago. He and his wife, unable to come to terms with what he had pressured her to do, separated in 2007.Another woman, who is now in her 40s, recalled how she had been raped when she was a teenager by a CTMI church elder.

Keith Brown (front row, second from left) poses with his arm around his wife Barbara. Next to her is son Geoffrey, who joined CTMI church with his brother Stuart (standing behind him to the left). (Supplied)
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Keith Brown (front row, second from left) poses with his arm around his wife Barbara. Next to her is son Geoffrey, who joined CTMI church with his brother Stuart (standing behind him to the left). 

She had moved in with the elder and his wife in Mauritius when she was orphaned as a teenager. The man began molesting her when she was 17, she said, and in the same year she was forced to marry a man 20 years her senior. On the night of the wedding, the elder allegedly raped her in a garage. After she told her husband and church leaders what had happened, the church elder was sent to the neighbouring island of Rodrigues. Criminal charges were never laid.

I recalled a meeting I had with Steve and Heather Goddard in 2009. It was the year after their 18-year-old daughter, Hayley, had joined Grace Gospel Church. She gave up offers to study at two Cape Town universities and eventually moved to Mauritius.

I sat down with the Goddards in their comfortable home in Kloof, Durban, within walking distance of the private St Mary’s Diocesan School for Girls, which Hayley and I had both attended. The Goddards’ dogs lay at my feet and family members smiled from photos hung on the walls. Heather told me that “losing” a child to the church was “worse than death”.

The Goddards stopped speaking to the media after recent tentative contact was made with their daughter and I was unable to ascertain where they stood with her. But Keith Brown, who “lost” two sons to the church, filled me in in September.

Weeks after my meeting with the Goddards the couple received a phone call from their daughter saying she planned to marry a man they had never met. When they asked to meet the man before they gave the marriage their blessing, everything went silent. According to Brown, Steve Goddard eventually flew to Mauritius to try to speak to his daughter, but while he was there and without him knowing she got married.

When the couple eventually returned to South Africa, Steve wrote regular letters of love and affection to his daughter until a big envelope from her arrived one day last year, returning all the letters unopened.

Heartbroken family
Brown, of course, had his own heartbreaking story. He told me how his 30-year-old son, Stuart, was diagnosed with cancer in 2006 and joined the church shortly afterwards. Stuart’s wife, Louise, and Brown’s younger son, Geoffrey, also became members.

In May 2007, after receiving medical treatment, Stuart left behind a successful career as a copywriter in Durban and moved to Mauritius. His family was baffled by his sudden decision, but was comforted by fairly regular emails from him and calls on Skype.

Eighteen months later and now very ill with a brain tumour, Stuart returned to South Africa. He was cared for in his family’s home and received treatment for five months,  after which he “mysteriously left, never to return”, said his father.

Brown said that his son had been led by church members to believe that his open questions about the church were perceived as “active persecution” of it and had decided rather to be cared for in fellow church members’ homes.

The day Stuart died in a local hospice the family was there.

“The next thing,” said Brown, “there were a whole lot of church people we’d never met before standing in the room of my dying son.” It will be a “wound for life that, while my son was dying, the church estranged him from his family”, he said.

His son Geoffrey and his family and Stuart’s wife, Louise, are all still with the church and living in Mauritius. Keith and Geoffrey remained in “reasonable contact” but Louise had nothing to do with Keith’s family anymore, he said.

Keith and I went for a drive while I was in Durban. Ten years ago, he said, he could never have predicted that he would be “sitting with a journalist telling her how a cult church had derailed relationships in the family I love so much. Never in my wildest dreams.”

Victoria John is a Mail & Guardian staff reporter



Here is a chilling testimony by a lady by the name of Catriona’s, who was abused and manipulated by CTMI “Centre Chretien Team” and leader Jean-Claude Lajeunesse source

I was only 14 years old when I met the ‘Centre Chretien’ team. I’m an orphan, I grew up with my grandmother who is a catholic and she could not accept that I could change religion and I was persecuted. When I talked with Jean-Claude, he said that if I can no longer remain at my grand-mother’s place that he is willing to give me a place in his house. The case went to court. Being a minor, the magistrate gave Centre Chretien the right to take me in charge. I was studying for my School Certificate but with all the meetings that there were in the morning and late in the evening, I was neglecting my studies and my results were not so good.

When I was 16, I was working in the Bible School as secretary. I met a junior pastor who wanted to marry me but Jean-Claude said that it was not God’s will even if I also loved this junior pastor. I was forced to leave the junior pastor. A man(who later will become my husband) in the same period of time joined this church after attempt to suicide(his fiancee left him few days before the wedding to go with someone else). He was deeply depressed and met Audrey and Miki. Audrey and Miki supported him.

Jean-Claude found that it was God’s plan for this man to marry me. Jean-Claude’s wife told me that if I do not marry this man that I’ll have to leave her house. Since I was an orphan and did not have any place to go, I had no alternatives than obeying. I did not know him at all and I refused to marry this guy(my husband). He threatened to commit suicide if I do not marry him and the wedding was scheduled 3 months later.

On the day of my Civil Marriage, Jean-Claude abused me sexually in a garage(I told him not to do that) and he said that he will always be there to get me out of any problem I could face (he was like a father to me and I trusted him a lot). After 1 week he did it again in my own house!! 5 months after my wedding, I told everything to my husband and hell started for me. Jean-Claude said that it was not him who did that but an uncle of mine. He never ceased to lie and this brought me a lot of deception. My husband and I left Centre Chretien and my husband did not want to hear about Centre chretien again. We did not go to church anymore for about 11 years(we joined the catholic church). I desired to return to a Christian church and I went several times to the AoG. During all these years(24 years), my husband and I were deeply hurt of what happened. We even tried to divorce twice but we stopped because of the children.

Other information:

1. While building the church in Curepipe, people were asked to give 1 month salary. Each person was asked to buy his chair in advance to get a place.

2. Jean-Claude Lajeunesse was asked to sell his property in Grand-Baie and leave his work.

3. I recently heard that Christians who leave their previous church have to be re-baptised when joining CTMI. Does this mean that they were not born again before?

4. The Hardys and the elders were well aware of the risk which could happen before the incident but they left me in Jean-Claude’s house. They did not take preventive measures. There were also dangerous thieves, drug addicts etc living in Jean-Claude’s house.

5. It was an abuse from Jean-Claude who was a senior pastor. But what about the leaders??? Why did they try to conceal everything? If they were righteous people, they should have acted differently. Why did they protect the reputation of the church instead of helping me? For example, Audrey sent Jean-Claude to Rodrigues for more than 1 year to avoid further problems because my husband put it on 3 newspapers. Jean-Claude invented a story saying that I was not a virgin(when he abused me) but that my uncle abused me before. How could he dare inventing such a story!!

6. Where was CTMI when I was in depression, suicidal etc? My family suffered a lot for more than 20 years because of what happened in CTMI.
7.Jean-Claude knew that I did not like the guy (my husband). He said that it was God’s will for me to marry him. He said that the guy is rich and that I will be happy with him. He added that he will always be there for me. I was still a minor(17).

I would like to tell everyone not to marry someone whom you do not love and do not let the leaders of the CTMI to arrange a wedding for you.



20 comments to Church Team Ministries International (CTMI) – Preaches like a Cult, Acts like a Cult, Must be a Cult

  • Martin Horan

    A great article by Victoria John and a really insightful testimony by Catriona!
    CTMI is a classic cult.
    All cult people at the top–in the image of Benny Hinn, Katherine Kuhlman, Herbert W. Armsrong, &c., &c., &c.,–have luxurious lifestyles, pay their workers little or nothing and have all their minions believing that they are next to God and that it is only through them they can get to God.
    This makes their disciples feel that their manipulation is NOT manipulation but a God-send and that they have a corner on truth no-one else has. They imagine that everything they give up in time, labour and money is for God. So they cannot see that they are serving a person, or persons, and are puting them on a par with God. They are unwittingly making themselves idolaters.
    I hasten to add that these cult leaders pay their inner circles of leaders top salaries. That “proves” to their minions that the cult’s inner circle are also well-beloved and blessed of God by their financial prosperity. It is also an impetus to each member that, if they work hard to serve their leaders through such devotion and sacrifice, God may well find them a place in that elite.
    They make sure that their minions don’t think objectively by claiming through sermons, and in their own publications, that all critical thoughts are of the devil and must be rejected. That’s not my opinion. It is taken from my personal observations as a former member of the Worldwide Church of God.
    It is also interesting that CTMI recruit those from well-off and “educated” families. That’s because they know that “educated” people are often not objective. The leaders of CTMI, as the leaders of other cults, can see how many educated people believe in an unproven and unprovable theory like evolution, how many of them listen to and believe politicians who have lied to them over and over, and how many educated people go to universities to come out of them with lots of knowledge but without any discernment or objectivity. And the plus for the cult leaders is that the masses generally are unaware of those things and are impressed with people who have academic qualifications. So, having roped in educated people–and wealthy people who are equally subjective–it gives a show of respectability to outsiders and can even attract them to want to be part of their elite club. It also gives them credibility.
    CTMI leadership and the leaders of all cults think along the same lines.
    You will never find a cult member who thinks they are brainwashed or deceived.
    When I was a member of the Worldwide Church of God, Herbert W. Armstrong would forever state and publish his mantra: “A deceived person doesn’t know he/she is deceived or they wouldn’t be deceived.” And it not only made his disciples think that all the world was deceived except for them, but it made them think that they could never be deceived.
    That’s how subtle the serpent is.
    It’s interesting that CTMI are so secretive to outsiders. Benny Hinn (see book, “The Confusing World of Benny Hinn”), Bonke, Armstrongites, and all other cults, work in the same way. They are on the lookout for outside spies and weed them out promptly. Paranoia is the fruit of being deceitful. Also, when people are manipulators they think everyone else is out to manipulate them.
    It doesn’t matter who or what the cult is. They all work alike.
    Satan knows how to use the things that always work for him. That’s why he loves religion. All religion appeals to the senses–for all religions, unlike real Christianity, are based on Satan’s ways of doing things. True Christianity is not religious. It was the religious elite of Jesus’ Own day that handed Him over to be crucified by another religious people.
    No religion has grace. It’s all about works. CTMI is one of the many examples. Some cults, however, are more subtle than others.
    But Satan doesn’t only work in religion as such. He works in politics too. Even so, there is a religous element to those political systems.
    A study of Nazi-ism and Communism exposes that Spirit at work. For example, many of the Nazis were religious men as you can see by a cursory study of that “philosophy”. Many of the top Nazis were occultists and had gone to Jesuit schools. Indeed, Hitler publicly called Goebels his “Ignatius of Loyola” and the elite of the Catholic church endorsed his work. Indeed, so did some German Protestant churches.
    However, Communism works in a similar way. It claims to be atheist but we shouldn’t let that fool us. Buddhism is an atheistic religion. (Some of its proponents foolishly claim that it is not a religion when it is very obviously a religion. In fact, all of its schools are religions.) And Communism is still a kind of religious atheism. One has only to think back to the idolatry of Marxism, Leninism, Stalinism and Maoism and the mindless parading of their masses under massive portraits, banners and flags. Their leaders–cruel despots and psychopaths–were idolised long after their deaths.
    Daily, masses of Russians would be in endless queues to pass Lenin’s entombed body in the Kremlin. They often did so in sub-zero temperatures, to get a mere glimpse of their dead god. Now, if that’s not religion and idol worship, then what is?
    The point I am trying to make, is that religion is deep in the heart of man and it is a hard thing to eradicate. Cults of all kinds, whether secular or so-called sacred, know how to appeal to the religious spirit in human beings–whether they know they are doing so or not. One thing is sure: Satan, who controls these mind manipulators, does know.
    I am not saying that all cult leaders know they are actually doing the Satan’s work or know they are are manipulated by the devil. I’m fairly sure that some will genuinely think they are doing the Lord’s work [Matt 7:21-23]. But I reckon most of those leaders are as atheist as Lenin and Stalin. Otherwise they could not act as overtly as they do in such blatant defiance of God.
    The truly sad thing is, the people who are deceived and trapped in these cults believe that they are doing God’s will. The scary thing, apparently, is that being deceived is no less a sin than being a deceiver [2 Tim 3:13].
    I enjoyed the way the article handled CTMI as it was an excellent exposure–though it was sad to see how it ruins people’s lives. The more exposure of cults the better.
    The thing that is very difficult is getting people out of cults once they are in them. The article shows that.
    I have read lots of great exposures on cults, even when I was in one. But the odd thing was, I never applied what I’d read to the cult I was in!
    And there’s the rub. People in cults do read about other cults and agree with those exposures. What they cannot agree about is any exposures relating to their own cult. They simply see them as satanic attacks. That’s what we have to deal with. And it is a really difficult thing to deal with anyone’s subjectivity, let alone when it is regarding their own cult.
    For example, there was a famous writer called Dr Walter Martin who exposed cults. While he wrote many books on cults, he refused to write anything bad about the world’s largest and most infulential cult–Roman Catholicism. Having been educated at Roman Catholic schools it struck me as surprising, to say the least, that he would never write anything against the Catholic Church. Many cults themselves expose Catholicism, so members of those cults would see Martin’s exposing of theirs as selective, if not hypocritical. And I agree with them; certainly to his being seclective.
    To my mind the world’s largest cult ought to have been high on Martin’s priorities and it was not. So we have to be careful in dealing with cults especially if they what they consider to be a worse cult than their own being ignored. Still, any cult must be dealt with nevertheless.
    One thing about the above exposure on CTMI is that it cannot be seen to be selective. DTW deals with every movement that is false!
    Anyway, having been educated in the world’s largest cult, and a member of another for around twenty years, I have often thought it may be a good thing to write on reasons WHY people join cults. I did write a book on why folk join cults and sent it to a publisher who sent me a few relevant points where I could change it. After reading the above article, I realize I need to get back to completing it and make the changes as I think it could help people to relate to cult members–to know where they are coming from.
    So the article and testimony have inspired me to get down to it.
    Meanwhile, though, the deception goes on and it’s good to see it is still being challenged. Cults still divide families and ruin lives where those in them think they are being saved–tragically! That’s perhaps the worst thing they actually do.
    It is depressing to see that cults still flourish, especially as we get nearer to the end. But we have to look to Jesus Christ. He is still in charge, not Satan. At least we know his time gets shorter by the minute.

  • Lisa

    Can I or you tell if an organization is a cult?
    It is an international missions organization that sends teenagers to various sites in the world to do missions work. they do other missions work too.
    How will I know?

  • Carolyn

    @Martin – read through your comment yesterday. Just a few thoughts as I can identify with much of what you are saying about cults:

    You said, “When I was a member of the Worldwide Church of God, Herbert W. Armstrong would forever state and publish his mantra: “A deceived person doesn’t know he/she is deceived or they wouldn’t be deceived.” And it not only made his disciples think that all the world was deceived except for them, but it made them think that they could never be deceived.”

    Elitism is deception…been there.

    When I was caught in the 7th Day heresies, I was listening to their seminars and then coming home and pouring over what Walter Martin said about “the Christian cult” 7th Day. The arguments that he made were not as good as their arguments in my thinking. So it was not Walter Martin that set me free…it was Christ revealing his Word to me after much prayer. My eyes were opened!

    You said: “I am not saying that all cult leaders know they are actually doing the Satan’s work or know they are are manipulated by the devil. I’m fairly sure that some will genuinely think they are doing the Lord’s work [Matt 7:21-23].”

    I think most false prophets are themselves deceived which is why they are so convincing. They have believed their own lies. Then of course there are the con artists who have discovered how easy it is to make money off scamming the gullible sheep.

    One thing that simplifies avoiding those who would lead into error or cults is watching what they do with the Word. Do they supersede it? Do they replace it? Do they change it? Do they add to it? Do they subtract from it? Are they afraid of it? No Christian leader who is a true Shepherd will be afraid to study the word and encourage everyone around him to do the same (for themselves). Satan’s agenda depends on a unified, concerted effort to diminish, disqualify, disassemble, disdain and distort the Word of God. By then no one has a chance of being saved by faith, for it is only through hearing the Word that faith is empowered.

    Revelation 19:9
    Then the angel said to me, “Write this: Blessed are those who are invited to the wedding supper of the Lamb!” And he added, “These are the true words of God.”

    Revelation 22:18
    I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this scroll: If anyone adds anything to them, God will add to that person the plagues described in this scroll.

    The Word that has revealed himself to mankind and cannot be tampered with by man or angel on penalty of eternal punishment. Take heed!

  • Carolyn

    This addendum is thanks to Marion…there I go using the NIV again…I spent a lot of time in the NIV and it’s a habit that’s hard to break…

    Anyhow, here is the more complete KJV of Revelation 22:18-19 (KJV) For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: 19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)


    Yes you can by what they preach and how they behave towards their congregation. Who are you referring to?

  • Zoe Mlangeni

    Wow!!! I was searching for something under false teachers and came across your website. My question is how does one leave these type of churches, I am currently stuck in one such ministry, money is demanded ofcourse subtley in the ‘do something for your fathers house’ sermons and time Oh my word there are activties 6 of the 7 days of the week and its mandatory if youre a ‘worker’. What started me out on this journey is the toxic relationship I have with the senior pastor. I only realise now that it was all minupilation at its best and all conversations always started with ‘you know I am close with you’. I really just want to get out and I dont want to leave in a pile of hatred and bitterness. Please help

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Dear Dear Zoe

    No where in the bible are you forced to be in a situation like this, as you know yourself it’s wrong. Because these people follow false teaching and their hearts are already full of hatred and bitterness so there is nothing you can do to change the situation. I strongly suggest you pray and ask Jesus’ protection over you and then just do it, hand in your resignation if you must hand in a resignation, pack your stuff and leave. Get out, do not let them try and convince you otherwise. Arrange for someone to pick you up, or if you have a car, get it in a drive and do not look back. You are dealing with people who are maligned with evil spirits, and the bible says you need to get away from people like this… so, make a run for it.

    Once you are out, come back here and we can deal with the after effects, the trauma of what you have gone through ok?

    much love to you

  • Redeemed

    Zoe, I pray God’s protection over you and that He would give you courage and a peace and trust in Him that you are obeying Him and fleeing from evil as the Bible tells us to do.

    Do not fear what man can do to you, it is the Lord we are to please. We must be wise, and Deborah has given you good counsel.

    Please keep in touch and let us know how you are doing. You will find this a safe place where people care about you.

  • John Chingford

    Hi Zoe

    Join the club!!!

    Please read this following article of mine. It may help:


  • Zoe

    Thank you, thank you, thank you all for your advise I will certainly lean on the wonderful articles on this website.

  • Quetin Trollip

    I am desperate to know more of what is happening in the church

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Quentin Trollip

    Read this blog

  • Quetin Trollip

    I hate what your church does

  • Angel

    Anyone knows about Francis Chan? I know he is from the jesuits school. But I should like to know more whats behind his Calling?
    Truth Always in (but the One and only True Christ!

  • Quetin Trollip

    Quetin Trollip wrote:

    I hate what your church does

    Hell has a special hole for all the so called pastors stealing poor peoples money

  • Maresu

    Bonjour, l’Eglise de notre Seigneur va mal ?
    Pourquoi ? Le jour où vous vous déciderez non pas de vous nommer un prophète que vous avez désigné afin qu’il soit selon vos convictions et vos convenances, cela ira de mieux en mieux.
    Demandez à Dieu de vous en donner un vrai. Mais ce sera difficile car lorsqu’on édite un livre sur les 5 ministères et qu’on oublie de dire que les prophètes ne sont soumis qu’aux seuls prophètes, on comprend vite l’esprit qui anime celui qui a oublié cela.

    Notre église actuelle fonctionne sur le modèle catholique. Comment on s’en sort ?
    Le vrai fonctionnement est dans 1 corinthiens.

    Je ne pense pas qu’il faille tout expliquer, Dieu en passant par Paul a tout décrit.

    Anciens = surveillants de l’activité de l’Esprit, ils peuvent intervenir de 2 façons :

    1) valider ou pas, une activité spirituelle. (attention, si vous n’êtes pas assez humble, cela vous sera impossible de vous humilier). Les anciens savent ce qu’une brebis peut accepter ou pas, comme de bons bergers.
    2) Ils peuvent, si le Saint Esprit les éclaire sur un sujet (sujet toujours empli d’amour et cela même dans la réprimande afin que la Brebis ne se perde pas), apporter une correction qui encouragera la brebis, la mettant ainsi à l’abri des flèches.

    Différence entre élevage et pâturage.

    Dans le fonctionnement actuel catholique qui relève de l’élevage, toutes les brebis sont passives, elles sont da ns un enclos et sont nourris par le curé.
    Notre fonctionnement est le même, mis à part qu’il y a des anciens.
    Dans la semaine ou le dimanche, un ancien peut nourrir ses brebis (attention, beaucoup de messages et de thèmes proviennent d’Internet).

    Pour rétablir l’Eglise dans sa plénitude la plus totale, il faut, par amour, faire paître les brebis.

    Après qu’ils eurent mangé, Jésus dit à Simon Pierre: Simon, fils de Jonas, m’aimes-tu plus que ne m’aiment ceux-ci? Il lui répondit: Oui, Seigneur, tu sais que je t’aime. Jésus lui dit: Pais mes agneaux.
    Nouveau Testament » Les Evangiles » Jean » chapitre 21 » verset 15
    Il lui dit une seconde fois: Simon, fils de Jonas, m’aimes-tu? Pierre lui répondit: Oui, Seigneur, tu sais que je t’aime. Jésus lui dit: Pais mes brebis.
    Nouveau Testament » Les Evangiles » Jean » chapitre 21 » verset 16
    Il lui dit pour la troisième fois: Simon, fils de Jonas, m’aimes-tu? Pierre fut attristé de ce qu’il lui avait dit pour la troisième fois: M’aimes-tu? Et il lui répondit: Seigneur, tu sais toutes choses, tu sais que je t’aime. Jésus lui dit: Pais mes brebis.
    Nouveau Testament » Les Evangiles » Jean » chapitre 21 » verset 17
    Qu’est ce que faire paître un troupeau ?

    Puisque nous sommes frères en Christ, la question suivante propose un modèle parfait de fonctionnement de la véritable église de Dieu.

    Comment doit fonctionner l’église si un ministère l’accueille ?
    Réponse : les dons du Saint Esprit ne s’expriment pas ce jour là.
    Il y a priorité sur le ministère.

    Quand le ministère part pour une autre église, le fonctionnement qui est de faire paître le troupeau, reprend.

    Les dons des brebis se manifestent à nouveau.
    L’une aura le don des miracles, l’autre aura le don d’encourager, l’autre de proposer un chant “inspiré”, l’autre de prophétiser (il est prioritaire), l’autre de guérir tous les malades, l’autre d’apporter son soutien aux plus faibles, l’autre de s’occuper des pauvres… Cette liste n’a pas de fin.

    Message d’inspiration prophétique s’appuyant sur :
    21:24 C’est ce disciple qui rend témoignage de ces choses, et qui les a écrites. Et nous savons que son témoignage est vrai.
    21:25 Jésus a fait encore beaucoup d’autres choses; si on les écrivait en détail, je ne pense pas que le monde même pût contenir les livres qu’on écrirait.

    En 3 ans de ministère, Jésus a beaucoup parlé et agit mais si nous compilons son temps de paroles, Il n’a parlé qu’une heure. Où se trouve le reste ?
    Réponse : en Lui.

    Exemple : Un jour, un homme traîna sa femme devant Jésus en disant : “Cette femme ne m’écoute jamais, pourtant, ne suis-je pas plus grand qu’elle”?
    Jésus se tournant vers la foule dit : “Ne montrez pas à votre femme que vous êtes plus grand qu’elle mais montrez lui plutôt au combien elle est grande dans votre cœur”.

    Autre exemple : Un jour, un homme s’approcha de Jésus et lui dit ceci : “Je suis marié mais ma femme se détourne de moi. Que dois je faire ?
    Jésus lui répondit : “parles tu à ta femme ? Ecoutes tu ta femme ? Prends tu soin de ta femme ? La conduis tu vers notre Dieu ?
    L’homme répondit : “non, je ne fais pas tout ça”.
    Alors Jésus lui dit : “Elle n’est pas ta femme”.
    -Rabbi, regarde, j’ai le rouleau qui confirme devant la Loi qu’elle est ma femme.
    Jésus lui dit : “le mariage n’est pas un rouleau mais de l’amour”.

    autre exemple : Un jour, Jésus posa une question à ses disciples : “Quel est selon vous le jeûne que mon Père préfère ?
    Un lui répondit : “il ne faut le dire à personne”. Alors Jésus répondit : “quand tu jeûnes, prépare ton repas et donne le à celui qui a faim car le vrai jeûne c’est de l’amour”.

    Autre exemple : “Rabbi, beaucoup pensent que tu es le Roi d’Israël, est ce vrai ?
    Jésus répondit ceci : “Quel est le vrai roi, celui qui se fait servir ou celui qui est au service de son peuple ? L’Homme ne put répondre.
    Un jour, un homme s’approcha de Jésus et lui posa cette question : ” pourquoi tu as dit que tu étais la lumière du monde ?
    Jésus lui dit : “c’est parce qu’au fond de l’Homme, il y a des ténèbres.

    Autre exemple : Un jour Jésus posa cette question à ses disciples : “Quel est le contraire de l’amour” ?
    Tous lui répondirent, Rabbi, la réponse est trop facile, c’est la haine et tous furent d’accord.
    Alors Jésus leur dit : “Moi et Mon Père, nous avons la haine du mal”.
    Je vous le dis en vérité, le contraire de l’amour c’est l’oubli car quand vous oubliez un homme c’est que vous ne l’avez pas assez aimé”.

    Qui autorisa un prophète de la nouvelle alliance dans son église ?
    Seuls ceux qui aiment la Vérité.

    Laurent M.


    Hello, the Church of our Lord goes wrong?
    Why? The day you decide not to appoint you as a prophet you designate to make it according to your beliefs and your convenience, it will get better and better.
    Ask God to give you a true. But it will be difficult because when editing a book on the 5 ministries and forget to say that prophets are subject only to prophets, you soon realize the spirit of one who has forgotten that.

    Our current church works on the Catholic model. How do we get out?
    The real operation is in 1 Corinthians.

    I do not think we should explain everything, God through Paul described all.

    Veterans = monitors the activity of the Spirit, they can occur in 2 ways:

    1) validate or not a spiritual activity. (Note: if you are not humble enough, this will be impossible for you to humiliate you). The old know what a sheep can accept or not, as good shepherds.
    2) They can, if the Holy Spirit enlighten them on a subject (subject always full of love and even in the rebuke that the sheep is not lost), a correction that will encourage flock, thus putting to shelter arrows.

    Difference between livestock and pasture.

    In the current operation that falls Catholic livestock, all the sheep are passive, they are da ns a paddock and are fed by the priest.
    Our operation is the same, except that there are elders.
    In the week or Sunday, an old can feed His sheep (warning, many messages and themes come from the Internet).

    To restore the Church in its total fullness, it is necessary for love to graze sheep.

    After they had dined, Jesus saith to Simon Peter, Simon, son of John, do you love me more than they love me? He answered, Yes, Lord, you know I love you. Jesus said to him, Feed my lambs.
    New Testament “Gospels” John “chapter 21” Verse 15
    He said to him a second time, Simon, son of John, do you love me? Peter answered him: Yes, Lord, you know I love you. Jesus saith unto him, Feed my sheep.
    New Testament “Gospels” John “chapter 21” Verse 16
    He said to him the third time, Simon, son of John, do you love me? Peter was grieved because he had said to him the third time: Do you love me? And he answered him, Lord, you know everything; you know that I love you. Jesus saith unto him, Feed my sheep.
    New Testament “Gospels” John “chapter 21” Verse 17
    What graze a herd?

    Since we are brothers in Christ, the question provides a perfect model of operation of the true church of God.

    How the church must function if a department welcomes?
    Answer: the gifts of the Holy Spirit do not speak that day.
    There has priority over the ministry.

    When the ministry left for another church, the operation which is to feed the flock, resumes.

    Donations sheep occur again.
    One will have the gift of miracles, the other the gift will encourage the other to suggest a song “inspired”, the other to prophesy (has priority), the other to heal all the sick, the other to support the weak, the other to take care of the poor … The list is endless.

    Prophetic inspiration message based on:
    9:24 p.m. This is the disciple who testifies to these things and who wrote them. And we know that his testimony is true.
    9:25 p.m. Jesus did many other things; if they were written in detail, I do not think the world itself could not contain the books that would be written.

    In 3 years of ministry, Jesus talked a lot and is but if we compile time words, He spoke for an hour. Where is the rest?
    Answer: in Him.

    Example: One day, a man dragged his wife before Jesus saying, “This woman never listens to me, though, I’m not taller than her?”
    Jesus turned to the crowd said, “Do not show your wife that you are taller than her but rather to show him how big it is in your heart.”

    Another example: One day a man approached Jesus and said this: “I am married but my wife away from me. What should I do?
    Jesus answered, “you speak to your wife? Listens you your wife? You take care of your wife? The drive you to our God?
    The man replied, “No, I do not do all that.”
    Then Jesus said, “She is not your wife.”
    -Rabbi, Look, I roll to the Act confirming that she is my wife.
    Jesus said, “Marriage is not a roll but love.”

    Another example: One day Jesus asked a question to his disciples, “What do you think fasting of my Father prefer?
    One replied, “we must tell anyone.” Then Jesus said, “when you fast, prepare your meals and give it to the hungry because the true fast is to love.”

    Another example: “Rabbi, many believe that thou art the King of Israel, is it true?
    Jesus said this: “What is the true king, who is serving or who has served his people? Man could not answer.
    One day a man approached Jesus and asked him this question: “why you said you were the light of the world?
    Jesus said, “it’s because deep Rights, there is darkness.

    Another example: One day Jesus asked his disciples this question: “What is the opposite of love”?
    All answered him, Rabbi, the answer is too easy, it’s hatred and all agreed.
    Then Jesus said, “I and My Father, we have to hate evil.”
    I tell you in truth, the opposite of love is forgotten because when you forget a man is that you have not loved enough. ”

    Which authorized a prophet of the new covenant in his church?
    Only those who love the Truth.

    Laurent M.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    FRENCH TRANSLATION (I hope it’s ok)

    Laurent Maresu

    Ok je me débattais un peu à comprendre ce que vous disiez, mais l’objectif principal que je vois est que vous croyez que les prophètes et de la prophétie (prédisant l’avenir) est pour aujourd’hui. Permettez-moi de vous citer quelques-uns Ecriture qui dit prophètes et de la prophétie (prédisant l’avenir) ne sont pas pour aujourd’hui.

    Jésus-Christ était le dernier et le plus grand prophète

    Hébreux 1: 1-2 “1 Dieu, qui à plusieurs reprises et dans diverses manières, parlé dans le temps passé aux pères par les prophètes, 2 a, en ces derniers jours, nous a parlé par le Fils, qu’il a établi héritier de toutes choses , à travers lequel il a aussi créé le monde; ”

    Le don de prophétie a cessé.

    1 Corinthiens 8-10 (Amp) “8 amour ne disparaît jamais [ne se fane jamais ou devient désuet ou prend fin] Quant à la prophétie (le don de l’interprétation de la volonté divine et le but), il sera respecté et passer loin. que pour les langues, ils seront détruits et cessent, comme pour la connaissance, il passera [il perdra sa valeur et être remplacée par la vérité].
    9 Pour notre connaissance est fragmentaire (incomplète et imparfaite), et de notre prophétie (notre enseignement) est fragmentaire (incomplète et imparfaite).
    10 Mais lorsque la complète et parfaite (total) vient, l’imparfait et incomplet sera disparaîtra (devenu désuet, nulle et remplacée) ”

    – Voir plus:

    Ayant prophètes ou non ayant prophètes ne fait pas de véritable église. Si ceci est ce que vous allez par comme un bâton de mesure, puis adventistes du septième jour doit faire partie de la véritable Église aussi bien qu’ils ont leur prophétesse Ellen G. White. Mais nous savons que adventistes du septième jour sont un culte. Alors maintenant, quoi?

    Nous avons besoin de plus prophètes de parler pour nous, nous avons le parfait, qui est la Parole de Dieu, Jésus-Christ sous forme imprimée. Tout ce que nous devons savoir est là.



    Ok I struggled a bit to understand what you were saying but the main focus I see is that you believe that prophets and prophecy (foretelling of the future) is for today. Let me quote you some scripture that says prophets and prophecy (foretelling of the future) is not for today.

    Jesus Christ was the LAST and GREATEST Prophet

    Hebrews 1:1-2 “1 God, who at various times and in various ways spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets, 2 has in these last days spoken to us by His Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the worlds;”

    The gift of prophecy has ceased.

    1 Corinthians 8-10 (Amp) “8 Love never fails [never fades out or becomes obsolete or comes to an end]. As for prophecy (the gift of interpreting the divine will and purpose), it will be fulfilled and pass away; as for tongues, they will be destroyed and cease; as for knowledge, it will pass away [it will lose its value and be superseded by truth].
    9 For our knowledge is fragmentary (incomplete and imperfect), and our prophecy (our teaching) is fragmentary (incomplete and imperfect).
    10 But when the complete and perfect (total) comes, the incomplete and imperfect will vanish away (become antiquated, void, and superseded)”

    – See more at:

    Having prophets or not having prophets does not make a true church. If this is what you go by as a measuring stick, then Seventh Day Adventists must be part of the true church as well as they have their prophetess Ellen G. White. But we know that Seventh Day Adventists are a cult. So now what?

    We no longer need prophets to speak for us, we have the PERFECT, that is the WORD OF GOD, Jesus Christ in printed form. EVERYTHING we need to know is in there.

  • Maresu

    Bonsoir Madame,
    Dieu a donné à l’église 5 ministères, pourquoi ? Citez le verset qui supprime le ministère prophétique que vous confondez avec le don de la prophétie que vous interprétez comme annoncer des choses avant qu’elles ne surviennent.
    Annoncer n’est qu’un aspect de ce ministère. Le ministère prophétique est un ministère de révélation.
    Et cette révélation nous montre que le fonctionnement actuel de nos églises n’est pas conforme au fonctionnement décrit par notre frère, l’apôtre Paul dans 1 Corinthiens. La restauration totale de l’église permettra à notre apôtre de cesser d’affirmer que l’église “va mal”, je peux vous l’annoncer.
    Vous constaterez que l’apôtre Paul, dans toutes ses missives s’adresse au peuple de Dieu. Pourquoi selon vous ?
    Vous affirmez que Jésus est le dernier des prophètes mais Il continue à parler. Comment cela est possible ? Tout simplement parce que Jésus habite en nous et que nous sommes son temple.

    Ce passage est une preuve évidente que Jésus, le plus grand des Prophètes vit toujours et qu’Il parle toujours, sa mort n’a pas pu mettre un terme à son ministère prophétique, toujours actif comme pour les autres ministères.

    17:18 Comme tu m’as envoyé dans le monde, je les ai aussi envoyés dans le monde.

    17:19 Et je me sanctifie moi-même pour eux, afin qu’eux aussi soient sanctifiés par la vérité.

    17:20 Ce n’est pas pour eux seulement que je prie, mais encore pour ceux qui croiront en moi par leur parole,

    17:21 afin que tous soient un, comme toi, Père, tu es en moi, et comme je suis en toi, afin qu’eux aussi soient un en nous, pour que le monde croie que tu m’as envoyé.

    17:22 Je leur ai donné la gloire que tu m’as donnée, afin qu’ils soient un comme nous sommes un, –

    17:23 moi en eux, et toi en moi, -afin qu’ils soient parfaitement un, et que le monde connaisse que tu m’as envoyé et que tu les as aimés comme tu m’as aimé.

    17:24 Père, je veux que là où je suis ceux que tu m’as donnés soient aussi avec moi, afin qu’ils voient ma gloire, la gloire que tu m’as donnée, parce que tu m’as aimé avant la fondation du monde.

    17:25 Père juste, le monde ne t’a point connu; mais moi je t’ai connu, et ceux-ci ont connu que tu m’as envoyé.

    17:26 Je leur ai fait connaître ton nom, et je le leur ferai connaître, afin que l’amour dont tu m’as aimé soit en eux, et que je sois en eux.

    Ne savez-vous pas que votre corps est le temple du saint Esprit qui est en vous, que vous avez reçu de Dieu, et que vous ne vous appartenez point à vous-mêmes?

    Nouveau Testament » Les Epîtres de Paul » 1 Corinthiens » chapitre 6 » verset 19

    Jésus confirme qu’Il est en nous. Mais chaque ministère a une fonction bien précise.
    En aucun cas, Dieu dit que les ministères prendront fin, pour les dons cela est vrai mais nous n’en savons pas la date. Ce qui est certain c’est que les 5 ministères nous amèneront à la perfection. On pourrait donc penser que lorsque beaucoup de brebis auront atteint ce perfectionnement, Jésus redescendra prendre son épouse sans tâche, immaculée donc parfaite. Alors seulement on pourra envisager que les 5 ministères pourront disparaître, ayant rempli la fonction que Dieu leur avait donné : perfectionner le peuple de Dieu.

    4:9 Or, que signifie: Il est monté, sinon qu’il est aussi descendu dans les régions inférieures de la terre?

    4:10 Celui qui est descendu, c’est le même qui est monté au-dessus de tous les cieux, afin de remplir toutes choses.

    4:11 Et il a donné les uns comme apôtres, les autres comme prophètes, les autres comme évangélistes, les autres comme pasteurs et docteurs,

    4:12 pour le perfectionnement des saints en vue de l’oeuvre du ministère et de l’édification du corps de Christ,

    4:13 jusqu’à ce que nous soyons tous parvenus à l’unité de la foi et de la connaissance du Fils de Dieu, à l’état d’homme fait, à la mesure de la stature parfaite de Christ,

    4:14 afin que nous ne soyons plus des enfants, flottants et emportés à tout vent de doctrine, par la tromperie des hommes, par leur ruse dans les moyens de séduction,

    4:15 mais que, professant la vérité dans la charité, nous croissions à tous égards en celui qui est le chef, Christ.

    Bonsoir Madame.



    Good evening Madam,
    God gave the church five ministries, why? Quote the verse that removes the prophetic ministry that confuse you with the gift of prophecy that you interpret as announce things before they happen.
    Announce is only one aspect of this ministry. The prophetic ministry is a ministry of revelation.
    And this revelation shows that the current functioning of our churches is not in accordance to the operation described by our brother, the apostle Paul in 1 Corinthians. The total restoration of the church will allow our apostle stop claiming that the Church “goes wrong”, I can announce it.
    You will find that the apostle Paul, in all his letters is addressed to God’s people. Why do you?
    You claim that Jesus is the last of the prophets, but he continues to speak. How is this possible? Just because Jesus lives in us and we are His temple.

    This passage is a clear proof that Jesus, the greatest of the prophets still lives and that He still speaks, his death could not end his prophetic ministry, still active as in other ministries.

    5:18 p.m. As you sent me into the world, I have sent them into the world.

    5:19 p.m. I sanctify myself for them, that they also may be sanctified in truth.

    17:20 is not for them only do I pray, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;

    17:21 That they all may be one, as You, Father, are in Me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

    5:22 p.m. I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be one as we are one –

    5:23 p.m. I in them and thou in me, that they may become perfectly one, and that the world may know that thou hast sent me and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.

    5:24 p.m. Father, I will that where I am, those whom you have given me, be with me, that they may see my glory, the glory you have given me because you loved me before the foundation of the world.

    5:25 p.m. Righteous Father, the world hath not known thee; but I have known thee, and these have known that thou hast sent me.

    5:26 p.m. them I have manifested thy name, and I will make it known, that the love with which you loved me may be in them, and I in them.

    Know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your yourselves?

    New Testament “The Epistles of Paul” 1 Corinthians “Chapter 6” Verse 19

    Jesus confirms that He is in us. But each department has a specific function.
    In any case, God says that the departments will terminate, for donations that is true but we do not know the date. What is certain is that five ministries will lead us to perfection. One might therefore think that when many sheep have achieved this improvement, Jesus will descend take his wife spotless, immaculate so perfect. Only then we can consider that the 5 departments will disappear, having fulfilled the function that God had given them perfect the people of God.

    4: 9 Now what does he ascended, except that he also descended into the lower parts of the earth?

    4:10 He that descended is the same also that ascended above all the heavens to fill all things.

    4:11 And he gave some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, some pastors and teachers;

    4:12 to equip the saints for the work of ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ,

    4:13 until we all attain to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the fullness of Christ,

    4:14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, by their craftiness in deceitful plotting,

    4:15 But speaking the truth in love, may grow up in all things into Him who is the head, Christ.

    Good evening, madam.

  • Our friend Maresu doesn’t know his tenses. He doesn’t know the difference between the simple past (spoke) and the present perfect simple (has spoken).

    Long ago, at many times and in many ways, God SPOKE to our fathers by the prophets, but in these last days he HAS SPOKEN to us by his Son, whom he appointed the heir of all things, through whom also he created the world. (Hebrews 1:1-2)

    Whereas the simple past tense (spoke) tells us that whatever was spoken in the past is spoken no more, the present perfect simple tense (has spoken) tells us that though a finished action lies in the past it is still speaking to us today. What does that mean in the context of Hebrews 1: 1 and 2? It simply means that Jesus’ death, burial and resurrection which happened at the commencement of these last days (on the day He was born of a virgin), is still speaking to us today. What more do we want? In fact, his death, burial and resurrection says everything we need to know. And that is precisely why Jesus once said, “But he answered them, “An evil and adulterous generation seeks for a sign, but no sign will be given to it except the sign of the prophet Jonah.” (in other words, His death, burial and resurrection). (Matthew 12:39).

    Maresu makes a big spiel about the five-fold ministry. Let us examine how accurate the prophecies are of these so-called super apostles of our time. On 23 June 2009 the leading figure of the New Apostolic Reformation, C Peter Wagner prophesied at a commissioning ceremony of Tod Bentley, in his Lakeland Church that . . .

    1) His power would increase.
    2) His authority would increased.
    3) His favour would increase.
    4) His influence would increase.
    5) His revelation would increase.

    A week later Tod Bentley’s five-fold increasing ministry fell flat on its face when ABC Nightline exposed his fraudulent healing ministry and when he divorced his wife after having an adulterous affair with a women while he was still married. Now, if this happened in the simple past both Tod Bentley and C. Peter Wagner as well as Rick Joyner who also attended the meeting in 2009 would have been stoned to death because that is what they did to adulterers and false prophets in the Old Testament.


    Notre ami Maresu ne connaît pas ses les temps. Il ne sait pas la différence entre le passé simple (rayon) et le simple cadeau parfait (a parlé).

    Il ya bien longtemps, à plusieurs reprises et de plusieurs manières, Dieu a parlé à nos pères par les prophètes, mais dans ces derniers jours, il nous a parlé par son Fils, qu’il a établi héritier de toutes choses, par lequel il a aussi créé le monde . (Hébreux 1: 1-2)

    Alors que le passé simple (rayons) nous dit que tout ce qui a été dit dans le passé est parlé pas plus, le cadeau idéal temps simple (a parlé) nous dit que si une action finie réside dans le passé, il parle encore à nous aujourd’hui. Qu’est-ce que cela signifie dans le contexte d’Hébreux 1: 1 et 2? Cela signifie simplement que la mort, l’enterrement et la résurrection de Jésus, qui est arrivé au début de ces derniers jours (le jour où il est né d’une vierge), est encore de nous parler aujourd’hui. Que voulons-nous? En fait, sa mort, l’enterrement et la résurrection dit tout ce que nous devons savoir. Et qui est précisément pourquoi Jésus a dit: «Mais il leur répondit:« Une génération méchante et adultère demande un miracle, mais aucun signe sera donné d’autre signe que celui de Jonas. “(En d’autres termes, sa mort , l’enterrement et la résurrection). (Matthieu 12:39).

    Maresu fait une grande spiel sur le quintuple ministère. Examinons comment les prophéties sont exactes de ces soi-disant super-apôtres de notre temps. Le 23 Juin 2009, la figure de proue de la Réforme néo-apostolique, C Peter Wagner a prophétisé lors d’une cérémonie de mise en service de Tod Bentley, dans son Église que Lakeland. . .

    1) Sa puissance augmenterait.
    2) Son autorité serait augmenté.
    3) Sa faveur augmenterait.
    4) Son influence augmenterait.
    5) Sa révélation augmenterait.

    Une semaine plus tard cinq fois le ministère croissante de Tod Bentley est tombé à plat sur son visage quand ABC Nightline exposé son ministère de guérison frauduleuse et quand il a divorcé de sa femme après avoir eu une liaison adultère avec une femme alors qu’il était encore marié. Maintenant, si cela se produisait dans la simple à la fois Tod Bentley et C. Peter Wagner ainsi que Rick Joyner passé qui a également assisté à la réunion en 2009 aurait été lapidé à mort parce qu’il est ce qu’ils ont fait pour les adultères et de faux prophètes de l’Ancien Testament .

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Dear Maresu

    Please read this article: False Foundation of Five-Fold Ministry

    Cher Maresu

    S’il vous plaît lire cet article: Faux Fondation du quintuple ministère

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Terms and Conditions for Submission of Comments

Terms and Conditions:terms and conditions

Because this world is becoming more evil by the minute and Discerning the World is coming under attack more often from people with some very nasty dispositions, we now have ‘Terms and Conditions for Submission of Comments‘ which you need to agree too before you can comment – this is to protect us and you when you comment on this website.  If you are not here to harm Discerning the World and it’s authors, please by all means comment, however if you are here to cause harm in any way, please don’t comment.

The following conditions does not mean that the authors of Discerning The World permit only opinions that are in agreement with us. This also does not mean that we fear dissenting opinions or ideas that are contrary to the beliefs that we hold (and/or that of the revealed Scriptures of the Holy Bible).

The following describes the Terms and Conditions applicable to your use of the “Comments” submission service at the Discerning the World website.


  1. Discerning the World owns and operates the site (the “Site”). Your use of the features on the Site allowing for submission of a “Comment” is subject to the following terms and conditions (the “Terms”). Discerning the World may modify these Terms at any time without notice to you by posting revised Terms on the Site. Your submission of a “Comment” to the Site following the modification of these Terms shall constitute your binding acceptance of and agreement to be bound by those modified Terms.
  2. By submitting a “Comment” you are accepting these Terms through your clicking of the “POST COMMENT” button.
  3. Discerning the World has the right, but not the obligation, to take any of the following actions, in Discerning the World’s sole unfettered discretion, at any time, and for any reason or no reason, without providing any prior notice:
    1. Restrict, suspend or terminate your ability to submit “Comments,” to the Site;
    2. Change, suspend or modify all or any part of the Site or the features thereof;
    3. Refuse or remove any material posted on, submitted to or communicated through the Site by you;
    4. Deactivate or delete any screen names, profiles or other information associated with you; or
    5. Alter, modify, discontinue or remove any comment off the Site.
  4. You agree that, when using or accessing the Site or any of the features thereof, you will not:
    1. Violate any applicable law or regulation;
    2. Interfere with or damage the Site, through hacking or any other means;
    3. Transmit or introduce to the Site or to other users thereof any viruses, cancel bots, Trojan horses, flood pings, denial of service attacks, or any other harmful code or processes;
    4. Transmit or submit harmful, threatening, abusive, harassing, defamatory, deceptive, fraudulent, obscene, indecent, vulgar, lewd, violent, hateful or otherwise objectionable content or material;
    5. Transmit or submit any unsolicited advertising, promotional materials, or spam;
    6. Stalk or harass any user or visitor to the Site; or
    7. Use the content or information available on the Site for any improper purpose.
  5. You retain the Copyright of any “Comment” you submit to Discerning the World. By submitting a “Comment” to Discerning the World, you agree to grant Discerning the World a irrevocable, non-exclusive, royalty-free, perpetual license to use the material or commentary that you have submitted, in any medium and in any manner that Discerning the World may, in its sole unfettered discretion, choose.
  6. By submitting a “Comment” to Discerning the World, you agree to comply with the following rules concerning such submissions:
    1.  You agree not to include in your “Comment”:
      1. Any false, defamatory, libelous, abusive, threatening, racially offensive, sexually explicit, obscene, harmful, vulgar, hateful, illegal, or otherwise objectionable content;
      2. Any content that may be seen as stalking or harassing of any other Site contributors;
      3. Any content that personally attacks an individual. (An example of a personal attack is posting negative comments about an individual in a way meant to demean that person. Note that posting your opinion about someone’s ideas, doctrine or actions is not a personal attack);
      4. Any content that discloses private details concerning any person, for eg., phone numbers that have not been made public, photos that are not in the public domain, residential address that is not public, ID numbers, Social Security numbers, email addresses that are not in the public domain, etc.;
      5. Any content that you know to be false, misleading, or fraudulent;
      6. Any use of profanity;
      7. Any content including advertisements or otherwise focused on the promotion of commercial events or businesses, or any request for or solicitation of money, goods, or services for private gain;
      8. Any content that contains software viruses or any other computer code, files or programs designed to interrupt, destroy or limit the functionality of any computer software or hardware or telecommunications equipment; or
      9. Any content directly or indirectly soliciting responses from minors (defined as anyone under 18 years of age).
    1. If any part of the “Comment” is not your original work, it is your responsibility to add the name of the third party, name the book with page number or a link (url) to the website where you obtained the information.
    2. Your “Comment” may contain Copyrighted material, the use of which has not always been specifically authorized by the copyright owner. You are however allowed to make such material available in your “Comment” in an effort to advance understanding of environmental, political, human rights, economic, democracy, scientific, and social justice issues, etc.  This constitutes a ‘fair use’ of any such copyrighted material as provided for in section 107 of the US Copyright Law. In accordance with Title 17 U.S.C. Section 107, the material on this Site is distributed without profit to those who have expressed a prior interest in receiving the included information for research and educational purposes. For more information go to:
    3. If you wish to use copyrighted material from a website or any other medium for purposes to add to your “Comment” that go beyond ‘fair use’, you must obtain permission from the copyright owner. (Fair Use means you may quote from copyrighted sources, but you may not publish the whole article, book, etc., in your “Comment”.)
  8. You are solely responsible for the “Comment” you upload, post, transmit or otherwise make available to others using this Web Site. Under no circumstances will Discerning the World be liable in any way for any “Comment” posted on or made available through this Site by you or any third party.
  9. You understand that all “Comments” on this Site are pre-screened or moderated. That means that every “Comment” needs to be approved by Discerning the World before it appears in the “Comments” section.  This is not an automatic process.  Discerning the World does this for SPAM reasons.
  10. Discerning the World has the right (but not the obligation) in their sole unfettered discretion to remove any “Comment” that is posted on or available through the Site. Without limiting the foregoing, Discerning the World has the right to remove any “Comment” that violates these Terms or is otherwise deemed objectionable by Discerning the World in its sole discretion.
  11. You understand that Discerning the World in their sole unfettered discretion is not obligated and can not be forced in any manner, be it legal or otherwise to remove any “Comment” that is posted on or made available through the Site by you.
  12. When submitting a “Comment,” you will be asked to provide your name and your email address. While Discerning the World does not object to your use of a pseudonym instead of your actual name, Discerning the World reserves the right, but not the obligation, to reject, change, disallow, or discontinue at any time any submission name that, in Discerning the World’s sole unfettered discretion, is objectionable or inappropriate for any reason. Discerning the World requires the submission of your email address, but Discerning the World warrants that it will not publish your email address to an outside third party without your consent.
  13. Discerning the World does not sell or rent your personal information to third parties for their marketing purposes. From time to time, Discerning the World may contact you personally via email. Notwithstanding the foregoing, you acknowledge and understand that the “Comments” feature of the Site is designed to permit users to post information and commentary for public review and comment and thus you hereby waive any expectation of privacy you may have concerning any likeness or information provided to the Site by you.
  14. You are solely responsible for your interactions with other users of or visitors to the Site.
    1. Discerning the World shall have the right, but not the obligation, to monitor interactions utilizing the “Comments” facility of the Site, between you and other users of or visitors to the Site. You acknowledge and agree that Discerning the World, or any third party shall not be, and you shall not seek to hold them, responsible for any harm or damage whatsoever arising in connection with your interaction with other users of or visitors to the Site.
    2. Discerning the World does not verify any information posted to or communicated via the “Comments” sections of the Site by users and does not guarantee the proper use of such information by any party who may have access to the information. You acknowledge and agree that Discerning the World does not assume, and shall not have, any responsibility for the content of messages or other communications sent or received by users of the Site.
  15. The Site contains content created by or on behalf of Discerning the World as well as content provided by third parties.
    1. Discerning the World does not control, and makes no representations or warranties about, any third party content, including such content that may be accessible directly on the Site or through links from the Site to third party sites.
    2. You acknowledge that, by viewing the Site or communications transmitted through the Site, you may be exposed to third party content that is false, offensive or otherwise objectionable to you or others, and you agree that under no circumstances shall Discerning the World be liable in any way, under any theory, for any third party content.
    3. You acknowledge and agree that the Site, and the contents thereof, is proprietary to Discerning the World and is protected by copyright. You agree that you will not access or use the Site or any of the content thereof for any reason or purpose other than your personal, non-commercial use.
    4. You agree that you will not systematically retrieve data or other content from the Site by any means, and you will not compile a database or directory of information extracted from the Site.
    5. You agree that you will not reproduce, distribute or make derivative works of the Site or any of the contents thereof without the express consent of Discerning the World.
    6. You hereby agree to indemnify, defend and hold harmless Discerning the World, its affiliates and licensees, and all of their officers, directors, employees, agents and representatives from and against any and all liabilities, losses, claims, damages, and expenses (including attorneys’ fees) in connection with any claim arising out of your use of the Site or violation of any of these Terms.



16. These Terms constitute the entire agreement between Discerning the World and you with respect to the subject matter hereof, and supersede any previous oral or written agreement between us with respect to such subject matter.

Thank you!