London Olympic Games 2012 – Secret Logo, Illuminati Floodlights and Esoteric Mascots

Almost four years after the London 2012 Olympic Games Logo was launched to the public, Iran has threatened to boycott the Games and have made a formal compaint to the International Olympic Committee to have design changed.  They believe it is a pro-Israeli conspiracy as the logo when reshuffled spells ‘Zion’.  As there is an auspicious little dot in the middle of 20.12 that represents the dot on the i in ‘Zion’.

Little does Iran know that it’s not pro-Israeli but (pro-Illuminati Zionist) – two completely different things.

See video:

The Pyramid Shaped Floodlights

The design of the Olympic stadium is illuminated (pardon the pun) with pyramid shaped floodlights.  The pyramid is the main symbol for the Illuminate.  But to make it worse, they are not just pyramids, they include the pyramid with CAPSTONE and outline of an all-seeing eye is visible within the overall bulb pattern within the capston.  See video:  (please note I don’t endorse the song)

The Meaning of The Pyramid Capstone

The Egyptians did not crown “The Great Pyramid” with a capstone. The pyramid has been left unfinished for thousands of years. The back of every U.S. one dollar bill has an “incomplete” pyramid on it with the capstone floating and “unattached” above it.

The pyramid base represents mankind as incomplete and wanting.  The capstone represents the enlightened few, the Illuminati, who reign in power over the world and the masses. According to Biblical scripture, Satan is the god of this sinful world (2nd Corinthians 4:4), and deceeptively appears as an angel of light (2nd Corinthians 11:13,14).  The Bible teaches that Satan was previously, Lucifer (light bearer), one of the archangels in Heaven.  Lucifer rebelled against God, demanding equality and was cast down to the earth.

Satan is said to be a master deceiver and liar, and always appears in a deceptive form. Many of today’s top U.S. politicians are occult members, attending Satanic ceremonies annually at the Bohemian Grove in California. The occult is rich in symbols. The general public is generally unaware of the symbolism in corporate logos and monuments that blatantly mock the woeful ignorance of society at large.

When the capstone is attached to the pyramid and “illuminated” at the 2012 London Olympics, it will be a crowning celebration of the New World Order one-world-government victory. It is a celebration of the completion of Luciferic ascension.

“This present window of opportunity, during which a truly peaceful and interdependent world order might be built, will not be open for too long – We are on the verge of a global transformation. All we need is the right major crisis and the nations will accept the New World Order.”    – David Rockefeller speaking at the UN, Sept. 14, 1994

The Great Pyramid of Giza represents the great New World Order: A One World Government, One World Religion and One World Economy, which awaits its ultimate leader and world King.  The New World Order has been in the planning stages for thousands of years. The Great Pyramid awaits its completion when the capstone is set in place during the 2012 London Olympics. Light enters the body through the eye and the all-seeing eye represents Lucifer. —


Wenlock and Mandeville

Then we have the two most bizarre looking mascots ever, both with ONE eye.  Wenlock and Mandeville they are called.  They were designed specifically for their appeal to children (what a joke) and supposedly with the digital age in mind.  Apparently these 2 characters have caused much controversy and confusion since their launch.  Well they would cause controversy because their design is acually based on an OCCULT SYMBOL called a hieroglyphic ‘Monad’

The Monas Hieroglyphica (or Hieroglyphic Monad) is an esoteric symbol originally proposed by a Athanasius Kircher and expanded upon by John Dee, an Elizabethan Magus and Court Astrologer of Queen Elizabeth I of England.  This 16th century mystical symbol is the emblem for Azoth or the Philosopher’s Stone – the aim of alchemy.

Summary of the Monad:  “The Sun and the Moon of this Monad desire that the Elements in which the tenth proportion will flower, shall be separated, and this is done by the application of Fire.” 


Wenlock is male and has a little W at the top of his head and Mandeville is female with an M at the top of her head.  Now you ask, what are the letters W and M got to do with anything?  Well again the occult comes into action.

The Esoterics of the Letters M and W:

In the occult as the Sun is Male and Luna (Earth) is Female, and as Sun “sends forth seeds” and impregnates the Earth, which then grows the ‘myriads of thoughts’ from these “seeds of the Sun”.  Because of this occultists infer that M is the Male and W is the Woman.

M and W also have numbers associated with them and it’s gets very complicated, and I wont go into it, but let me tell you, it’s not good.

There seems to be occult imagery all over London, rainbows, and black and white freemasony squares that Menlock and Mandeville make the children in London walk over in the streets.  Also the characters making kids do salutes that look very similar to a Hitler type hand salute.


– I have no idea what is going to go down during these London 2012 Olympic Games, but what ever it is, it’s going to be very very evil.


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Deborah (Discerning the World)

Deborah Ellish is the author of the above article. Discerning the World is an internet Christian Ministry based in Johannesburg South Africa. Tom Lessing and Deborah Ellish both own Discerning the World. For more information see the About this Website page below the comments section.

126 Responses

  1. charles allan says:

    I know the book is apocrypha but it is interesting history. In the book of maccabees
    Judas Maccabeus wins all the battles with the Jews who started to follow the greek customs
    of olympic sports. Sports are just body worship which is meaningless for salvation – the
    olympics are full of wordly abominations. ‘I make no provision for the body’ Paul.
    There is also immodest dress and weird symbols. It is earthly and fleshly and Christians should avoid all of it.

  2. Martin Horan says:

    What a load of tosh to claim that the Zionists are fanatics or members of the illuminati.
    I am a Christian Zionist because Israel are prophecied in the Bible to be back in their land. I know many other Christians who are Zionists and would treat the idea of being Illuminati associates with the contempt it deserves. It was also prophesied in the the Bible that Israel would face the ancient hatred which they presently do–as they are daily bombarded by “Palestinian” rockets.
    This bilge is nothing but anti-Semitism pretending it is not anti-Semitism. At least Hitler did not beat about the bush regarding his hatred of the Jewish people. He was more open and honest than the cowards who make up this stuff to appear they are doing the world a favour.
    We only have to look at the Western media who–if there is an Illuminati–are controlled by them. The media is blatantly anti-Jewish and pro-Arab. So are our Western governments. They are as much so as the Arab, Russian and Chinese ones. I know people who aren’t even Christians or Jews who see that and are utterly disgusted by it.
    To read Zion into the Olympic Logo is paranoia and/or plain anti-Semitic drivel. It’s neither logical not biblical.
    Little Israel is constantly attacked by the Arabs who outnumber them by incredible odds. God tells us in Ezekiel (the valley of the dry bones) that he will raise Israel up to be a great army.
    Hello! This little nation are a match for ANY of this present fallen world’s great armies. As Dave Hunt so rightly says, “A thousand Hitlers will not be able to drive them out of their land.” We have seen the Illuminati-controlled world’s leaders try to make Israel give up more and more land for peace. And where has it got that little nation? Suffering more violence is where it has got(ten) them! Replacement “Theology” (heresy) is not only unbiblical it is anti-biblical.
    Dr Stanley Monteith’s book “Brotherhood of Darkness” exposes this nonsense about Jewish financers and bankers. Anyone who is a Christian needs to read it because we are going to be answerable to God for the things we believe. Other Christian writers like Dave Hunt, Mark Hitchcock, Bill Salus–to name but three–have also exposed this tripe.
    As to the “Protocols of the Elders of Zion”: former Jesuits themselves–Diego Riviera for one–have maintained that it was a Jesuit fraud perpetrated by the Jesuits to bring about further hatred of the Jews.
    Even secular historians have dismissed that book as bunkum for the blatantly obvious reasons.
    How could Jews (a small minority and most of whom–at the time that scurrilous book was written–were living in poverty and had absolutely no influence in the world) plan such a thing? The very idea is utterly absurd. “The Protocols of the Elders of Zion” are as diabolical and as wicked as they try to portray Jewish people to be.
    In fact, the Jesuits have acheived much through persecution of the Jews via their demonic scheme of creating this monsterous fraud. What good has ever come out of it for the Jews? None!
    If one thing the Bible teaches us it is that Satan has an ongoing hatred for the Jews. The Bible tells us that God will eventually bring the whole world against Israel when He Personally will intervene to save them.
    See how often Israel is mentioned in the Bible–even more times than Jesus Christ Himself is! The Messiah had to come from them. People who make up this kind of nonsense–especially ones like Texe Marrs who claim to be Christian–had better bear in mind the words of Genesis 12:2-3. If they think the New Testament dispells those Scriptures they had better remember Romans 11.
    We have Replacement “theologians” who deny Israel’s right to exist. They will not condemn Molsem atrociets against unarmed Israeli citizens. Yet where are the Jews prosperous and defeating their enemies for the first time in their history since the diaspora? Why, Israel of course, where God said they would be and where they would be defeating their enemies.
    Let us remember that these people who deny them their land are Preterists. They are condemned in II Peter 3:4. The people castigated in that Scripture are not pagans, Moslems or atheists because those groups have never heard of the “fathers” nor have heard of Christ’s second coming. That means they are false Christians. And Churchianity is full of such people–especially among ecumenists.
    We know from the Bible that there is going to be a One-World politico-religio system. It is anti-Christ and it is ecumenical. If you want to know who is Illuminati-backed, there is your answer–the ecumenists! They are all in Rome’s pocket. Check Revelation 17 and 18. It will hate Israel as this world does right now and is preparing for it; as are these Replacement “theologians”! Israel, though she will be duped by anti-Christ, will not be a part of this one world system [Numbers 23:9]. This is in spite of the fact that God made it plain from ancient times that Israel would NEVER cease to be a nation in before Him [Jeremiah 31:36]. So these ecumenists are entirely without excuse.
    The Russian Communist poet Yevgeny Yevtushenko mocked the viciousness and mendacity of anti-Semitism in his poem “Babiy Yar”. Shame on people who call themselves Christians who fall for such nonsense when an atheist Communist didn’t buy it!
    Satan is the accuser. We had better be careful when we hear his accusations. God will hold us accountable. We are to prove all things [1 Thess 5:21] and test the spirits [1 John 4:1] and therefore not give credence to satanic lies and rumours. We ought to be reproving the unrighteous works of darkness [Ephesians 5:11].
    God tells us through His Word that all Israel will be saved [Rom 11:26]. I have never read such a promise regarding any other nation or race in the Bible. Neither has anyone else.

  3. Martin

    You are not a Christian Zionist, you are just a Christian. All Christian automatically support Israel. But I don’t see why you need to now call yourself by another name.

    Zionism, is simply a political movement and today is more of an ideology than anything else. Zionism is in effect an international movement for the return of the Jewish people to Zion, the land of Israel. A better explanation: “Zionism is a form of nationalism of Jews and Jewish culture that supports a Jewish nation state in territory defined as the Land of Israel. Zionism supports Jews upholding their Jewish identity and opposes the assimilation of Jews into other societies and has advocated the return of Jews to Israel as a means for Jews to be liberated from anti-Semitic discrimination, exclusion, and persecution that has occurred in other societies. Since the establishment of the State of Israel, the Zionist movement continues primarily to advocate on behalf of the Jewish state and address threats to its continued existence and security.” —

    Zionists are people who are involved in the above political movement.

    I do not believe it is biblical for Christians to be involved in a political movement, or follow a political ideology. Hence you are a Christian that prays for Israel and you help Jews, but you are not a Christian Zionist

    The British Royal Family believe they are descendants of Kind David, which is a lie out of the pit of hell. They claim Zion for themselves, hense the logo Martin IS spelt ZION when reshuffled. It’s not paranoia. You clearly have not been WATCHING what has been going on over the last few years.

  4. Robbie says:

    …af is die masker! 🙂
    I still think these games are going to be the hottest Olympic event ever.

  5. Robbie

    >> I still think these games are going to be the hottest Olympic event ever.


  6. Myfanwy Brown says:

    Debs, I have been watching some videos online,re; the Olympics. I do not want to post them as they are not done by Christians, but they are very interesting, and it all fits together. Please pray for London, and for all of us here in the UK, I think something evil is coming too. What I saw and heard agrees with the British/Israel link you have on here.

  7. Myfanwy Brown says:

    Debs, found this too..

    note points 3 and 4. Do you see, Mandeville?

  8. Paul (Continue in His Word) says:

    The Olympics are all about sex and alcohol. I pity the the poor souls of these young and promising men and women athletes (some innocents) who are going to be drawn into these orgies and destroyed.
    Read for yourself : [link removed] (Debs, if you find the content inappropriate for this blog, please remove the link. Its a newspaper article that exposes the REAL games that get played in the Olympic village behind the cameras)
    Please, brothers and sisters, let’s not watch this filth, as watching them would be like encouraging these behaviors.

    1Tim 5:22 Lay hands suddenly on no man, neither be partaker of other men’s sins: keep thyself pure.
    2Jn 1:11 For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds.

  9. Dave Hunter says:

    The Illuminati and other talk about esoteric societies working behind the scenes to take over the world serve only as a decoy to divert people’s attention from what’s actually happening in the world of religion. Anyone who believes stuff about the Illuminati must also believe the other part of the story…fantastic stuff about a reptilian dynasty and excuse the joke, the call of Chtuhlu. Guys honestly, either we believe what the bible says or we let people to fabricate theories for us and in the process lead us astray.

    The good thing that happened this far is that few people have taken the conspiracy theorists seriously. Fine part of what’s been said might be true but then instead of white-washing the enemies of humanity expose their real identity. These people are satanists. Period.

    So in short, it’s a satanic plot to take over the world and the only people presented as running the show are those who call themselves the Illuminati but can they by themselves take over the world? Unlikely. Why then are the others who are involved in this plot operating in dark?

    It’s because the main assault against the world is expected to come from those quarters. From places no one would ever suspect could mislead people. Need I say more?

    The command in the bible is:”Let him who has ears here…”

    Ask no questions. Trust no one but the Lord and you’ll be safe.

  10. Cynthia says:

    “and this is done by the application of Fire.” hmmm does this reveal anything about possible events at the Olympics- perhaps caused or dealing with fire?

  11. Dave Hunter

    Jesus told us to WATCH AND PRAY during these end times.

    The illuminait and other occult organisations are not conspiracy theries.

    >> Anyone who believes stuff about the Illuminati must also believe the other part of the story…fantastic stuff about a reptilian dynasty and excuse the joke, the call of Chtuhlu.

    Nonsense. I do not believe in reptilians and occult lies. But I do believe that there are people who believe in these lies.

    Call it what you want, Illuminati, Evil men with a dark plot, Satan’s minions, who cares. The fact is we know that Satan has been working a plan using mankind since the beginning to time to bring the world to the last days (of which we are in NOW) so that the antiChrist can be revield.

    We know that when the antiChrist is revealed the WHOLE WORLD will follow him (not just occultists) but everyone who has not accepted Jesus Christ as their saviour, Hindus, Muslims, Buddhists, even the Jews will follow him. All googlie eyed.

    Here in South Africa, whenever Nelson Mandela has a birthday it seems to last for an entire year a people go off their noggin and sing songs and praise the man as though he is a god. They view him as a saviour. They do do good works for 67 minutes, hug each other, love each other, and carry on like a bunch of mad people. Mandela is a type of anti-Christ but on a small scale. Now I look at this and I imagine the whole world acting like this over the REAL anti-Christ except this time his power is truly and utterly satanic and people will kill for him.

  12. John Chingford says:

    There are so many different thoughts about who the antichrist is likely to be. Many of these come from iulluminati conspiracy theories. The fact is (without getting into a debate about pretrib) the ac cannot be revealed until after the rapture takes place.

    There may possibly be a link between the last time London held the games in 1948 (Israel also became a Nation, Latter Rain replacementism apostasy started) and the rapture. Israel has now been a Nation for a whole generation.

    Personally, I do not sense (scripturally) that London is a centre stage for Biblical prophecy being fulfilled. Our eyes should be on Israel, the Middle East, Russia and Rome or the EU HQ Brussels. Possibly these will take the opportunity insidiously in the background whilst the whole world focuses on London.

    I get concerned when we get so caught up in different conspiracy talks. The same thing happened in 1999 with Y2K. People seem to leave their biblical glasses behind in all the emotional brain dead excitement. Granted that there seem to be illuminati involvement, but what is new with that? These things have been happening for Centuries. If anyone can show me from scriptures that these events in Stratford are included in the end times prophecies I might take more interest.

    Whatever happens God is in control and Jesus reigns and His acts are always coupled with great mercy. I personally have no sense of any impending disaster in London – at least not anything massive. Just in case, stay well clear of Stratford during the Games.

    There is a fine line between seeking truth and dabbling into gnosticism. Gnosticism is about seeking truth through mysticism, mystery’s, hidden knowledge basically becoming like Eve who saw that the fruit of the tree of knowledge (of good and evil) was desirous to make one wise. I sometimes think that when we do these things we are almost touching on areas we should leave well alone because it can open up avenues or portholes for the enemy to cause us needless fear.

    The scriptures teach us that we should not get caught up in hidden knowledge besides “Greater is He that is in me than he that is in the world”. At the end of it all, GOD REIGNS.

    The occultic multitudes (of our day) can do NOTHING and cannot succeed because GOD is on the throne. Psalms 2:1-5 says “Why do the heathen rage, and the people imagine a vain thing? The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers take counsel together, against the Lord, and against his anointed, saying, Let us break their bands asunder, and cast away their cords from us. He that sitteth in the heavens shall laugh: the Lord shall have them in derision. Then shall he speak unto them in his wrath, and vex them in his sore displeasure.”

    Regarding hidden knowledge. The following is why we should not get caught up in it:

    “”The secret things belong to the LORD our God, but the things revealed belong to us and to our sons forever, that we may observe all the words of this law” Deut 29:29 NASB

    “For this commandment which I command thee this day, it is not hidden from thee, neither is it far off.” Deut 30:11 KJV

    “To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them”
    Isaiah 8:20 KJV

    Isa. 45:19
    “I have not spoken in secret, in a dark place of the earth …..”

    Isa 48:16
    ”Come near to Me, hear this: I have not spoken in secret from the beginning”

    So THEREFORE, we are NOT to look for hidden mysteries but focus on learning direct from the REVEALED Word of God, through the revealed WORDS.

    Here is an interesting article on this subject from “Let Us Reason” ministries

    There is sufficient there to show us that we need to focus on the CLEAR teachings of the Bible ALONE instead of trying to unravel codes, symbolism, secrets, mysteries etc.

  13. John

    I understand, but I am not getting involved in Gnosticism by speaking about these things, my goodness. I am just pointing out some facts re the Olympic Games.

    And no where did I say the anti-Christ was going to be revealed during the Olympic games. And this is so not like Y2K. I don’t see people running around like headless chickens because of these Olympic games like they did Y2K.

    No genuine Christian is taking their eyes of the Word of God, only those apostasising are running around unraveling bible codes and looking for aliens like Chuck Missler.

    Jesus told us to watch and pray, WATCH (but do not delve into false teaching and lies) of everything that is going on around you and PRAY!

    >> Just in case, stay well clear of Stratford during the Games.

    I will do just that, thanks 🙂 thousands of miles away LOL

  14. John Chingford says:


    My comments were not directed to you. I read all the comments and have been observing what many “christian” conspiracy theorists are teaching. I was simply pulling everything together for the benefit of any of your readers or “one off” visitors who needs to be aware of the things I wrote, i.e those who ARE getting caught up in the “secret” stuff.

  15. John

    Okie Dokie, sooorrryyyyy 🙂

  16. Burning Lamp says:

    I think that one of the reasons so many Christians are getting sidetracked into the “secret” things is because they have their eschatology confused. This wouldn’t account for Missler as I understand he is pretrib, but even by embracing it he is causing those who seek truth to back off from it and assusme it is false because he and others who are in question hold to it.

    I am looking for my Lord, and am not interested in the least in speculations as to who the AC is going to be. Idle curiosity. Of course the topic comes up in the study of Biblel prophecy, but we see through a glass darkly now and the hidden things are only for the Lord to know. He has given us instruction on how to live our lives, reach the lost and stand for truth. And those who hold to a pretrib rapture believe that the days are short and the Lord will be coming for us soon and we just need to redeem the time. We are not concerned with world affairs and living through the Great Tribulation.

    Many Christians are living in fear and are stockpiling ammo, food and gold. Many are heading for the hills, thinking they must seek out areas of safety away from highly populated areas. They are placing their trust in their own efforts and thinking only of themselves. This is the opposite of what the Bible teaches.

    Many believers are in confusion period, frozen in their tracks like a deer in the headlights. False teaching abounds and so few are on the right track to expose it. These are indeed perilous times. The Olympics has always been steeped in humanism and occult overtones, but now it is even more blatant. In a way that is good so more people can see the world for what it is. Many things that were formerly hidden are now coming forth with more boldness. That is a sign that we are nearing the end of the Church Age. We need to be ever vigilant and guard our hearts and minds and focus on God’s Word and the Blessed Hope and reaching out to others with the Gospel. The consequences of a self-centered Christianity is eternal, not temporal. We will give account before the Bema Seat for how we lived our lives. Tears will be shed. Look out to others and care about their eternal destiny and look up to worship our Lord and seek to please Him and only Him in our lives. That is a challenge in today’s world, but it is the only way to peace and joy. Fear is a tool of Satan, healthy concern is a fruit of the Holy Spirit.

    Grace and peace to all.

  17. Burning Lamp says:

    I wanted to add that we cannot bury our heads in the sand and being informed about what is going on in the world is important. I didn’t mean that we shouldn’t arm ourselves with information and be aware because we should, but just to be careful not to become overly concerned or obsessed. Just wanted to make that clear.

  18. Hanelie says:

    Burning Lamp wrote:

    I wanted to add that we cannot bury our heads in the sand and being informed about what is going on in the world is important. I didn’t mean that we shouldn’t arm ourselves with information and be aware because we should, but just to be careful not to become overly concerned or obsessed. Just wanted to make that clear.

    Yes, yes, yes. It’s fine line, but an important one. You make many important points in your earlier post too, but one really touched me: those of us that know have a responsibility. My Christianity is not just between me and God (the self centered version taught in so many places). So much (if not all) of what many of us have been taught (in so many traditional churches) is not Christianity at all!

  19. charles allan says:

    Olympic games is pagan body worship : see maccabees
    Onias III. By promising the king a large sum of money, and by offering to become the promoter among the Jews of his policy of hellenizing the non-Greek population of his domains, he obtained the deposition of his brother and his own appointment to the high-priesthood (174 B.C.).
    As soon as he was installed he began the work of hellenizing and carried it on with considerable success. A gymnasium was built below the Acra (citadel), in close proximity to the temple, where the youths of Jerusalem were taught Greek sports. Even priests became addicted to the games and neglected the altar for the gymnasium. Many, ashamed of what a true Jew gloried in, had the marks of circumcision removed to avoid being recognized as Jews in the baths or the gymnasium. Jason himself went so far as to send money for the games celebrated at Tyre in honour of Hercules (1 Maccabees 1:11-16; 2 Maccabees 4:7-20).

  20. Burning Lamp says:

    Hanelie, thank you for the kind words. I am glad you have found DTW and are interacting here. Thanks for bringing out that we are our brother’s keeper in the sense that we are to care about others and not just about self-preservation. We should look at each person and see them as a precious soul who will spend eternity in either a lost or a saved condition. This life is but a vapor and soon it will be over one way or another. None of us is guaranteed tomorrow. The Bible says that today is the day of salvation.

  21. cyprus guy says:

    Dear humans i am 14 years old and im from cyprus.This summer my family decided to come for holidays in england .Anw i just want to say that whatever happens if it does (probabbly wont)we should not say that this is the end ….it is obviously another way for the film industries to get money(such as 11.11.11,2012,illminati.etc)So if you think of it without fear you can see that even if we are killed by some so-called satan minions after thay kill us they will not live after all we are all mortals so they will die living with their sins so please every human make the world a better place and STFU

  22. Dear Cyprus guy

    No one has said it is the end 🙂 It is just the beginning of what is to come.

    >> please every human make the world a better place

    This is impossible because the bible says that every man is sinful, and the god of this word is Satan, so there is no ways this earth will become a better place. It’s is getting worse and worse by the minute. You need to be born again to escape the coming tribulation, are you saved Cyprus guy?

  23. Dear Cyprus guy

    No one has said it is the end 🙂 It is just the beginning of what is to come.

    >> please every human make the world a better place

    This is impossible because the bible says that every man is sinful, and the god of this word is Satan, so there is no ways this earth will become a better place. It’s is getting worse and worse by the minute. You need to be born again to escape the coming tribulation, are you saved Cyprus guy?

    [Edited by DTW – “and the god of this word is Satan” should be “and the god of this WORLD is Satan’

  24. Myfanwy Brown says:

    Hi Debs,

    I agree with John and BL about not getting over interested in hidden things. I have to watch myself as I have a naturally curious mind, don’t get me wrong, I am FULLY aware of how satan tries to lure us into occultism through interest in conspiracies and secretive knowledge. The Bible verses John quotes are very appropriate.

    However, having said all that, I do not think we should bury our heads in the sand! I am aware of quite a few things about the Olympics, but all I can do is pray. I do believe that these Olympics will be used by the enemy to accomplish something, altho’ I do not know what will happen. The government has only just ‘discovered’ that the security company they were using, has not managed to train enough people, and so they are now engaging many British troops plus German and American troops to ‘guard’ the Olympics. In fact London is being guarded by a war ship in the Thames, un-manned drones in the sky and missiles on top of a block of flats. Also some siren to use for crowd control, which gives you terrible head pain. An undercover news guy also has discovered many strange things going on with the security, as well as thousands of ‘coffins’, enough to fit four people. It all seems rather bizarre and OTT!!

    I believe the Beiijing games closing ceremony ended with a ‘spaceship’ dropping into the arena? It seems to me that the governments are ‘experimenting with the public to see their reactions, and judge our behaviour for the future.

  25. cyprus guy says:

    just 3 questions: 1)do you all believe in the true god or the SATAN?
    2)are the cristians enemies or allies of the illuminati
    3)arent you aware that since the begining of time america has been controlling the most if not all of the world?
    i am afraid to believe all of this is true but it all happens to match
    Anw i read once an article wich said that illuminati killed many people who tried to tell the world not to obey them(michael jackson,princes diana etc)

  26. Cyprus guy

    1) I am a born again Christain, and believe in Jesus Christ the only begotten Son of the One and Only LIVING GOD of the BIBLE. NOT Satan.

    Exod 3:15; “And God said moreover unto Moses, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, The LORD God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, hath sent me unto you: this is my name for ever, and this is my memorial unto all generations.”

    John 3:16; And Jesus said, “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.”

    Matt 22:32; And Jesus said, “I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.”

    2) Christians are AGAINST Satanists – surely you should know this?
    3) a) Are you not aware that since the beginning of time Satan has been controlling the world, and b) America has not been around since the beginning of time, but SIN has been around since the beginning of time and evil people have been around since the beginning of time, Nimrod, the Egyptians who enslaved the Israelites, the Babylonians who worshipped other gods, etc etc, and evil people in America and Europe and Russia and China…etc.

    4) Now the big question is which god do you follow? Because if you are not a genuine Christian and follow God you unfortunately follow the god of this world Satan.

    I’ll quote that verse again…

    John 3:16; And Jesus said, “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.”

    If you don’t believe in Jesus, you are going to perish.

    Jas 4:4; “Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God.”

    Please read this article:

  27. John Chingford says:

    Hi Cyprus Guy

    Deborah is completely correct in what she wrote.

    Maybe you got confused because she said “the god of this word is Satan”. Actually the word “word” should have read “world” because she is referring to quoting from 2 Corinthians 4:4

    “In their case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelievers, to keep them from seeing the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ.

    There is more evidence of this in 1 John 5:19:
    “We know that we are from God, and the whole world lies in the power of the evil one”.

    That verse is saying that everyone who has not become a born again believer in Jesus still belongs to the evil one aka (also known as) satan.

    In other words, the “god” of this world is satan who is the enemy of the true Almighty, All knowing God who’s presence fills the Universe. Therefore, we beseech every unbeliever everywhere to receive Christ for eternal salvation from sin and (at the same time) be eternally rescued from satans power and control over you.

  28. Oh crickey did I say that? Oooops. BIG typo!

    Thanks John!

  29. John Chingford says:

    “and (at the same time) be eternally rescued from satans power and control over you”.

    I think I need to clarify that. I should have said that the moment a person receives Christ as their personal Saviour, there are two specific (but not just two)things that happen simultaneously.

    1) That person is saved from their sins for eternity (not by living a good life) by receiving Jesus’s sacrificial death (Him taking your place on the cross) as the payment for your sins and securing you eternal life – provided you put your faith and trust in Him

    2) That person is immediately eternally rescued from satan’s power and control over them. They now belong to God through Jesus. They now belong to an infinitely greater master.

  30. Hanelie says:

    Oh my, I had not wanted to read this, but finally pulled up the courage. Isn’t it amazing how what once might have been frowned upon are becoming more and more common place (like the capped pyramid and all seeing eye) and openly accepted. It starts with seemingly innocent things which are just a tad “off”, but still brings a beautiful message. As people fall for it, the enemy comes back with things that are progressively more “hard core”, but again with a supposedly “beautiful” (usually “there’s some good in all evil”) message. In the process, people are coaxed into believing just about anything, accepting things they would never have accepted had it not been for this slow process of conditioning to pull them deeper and deeper into the enemy’s web of lies.

    Hollywood is a prime example of this. I heard that there were people who (at first) thought that the terrible shooting in the Colorado theater was a publicity stunt.

  31. >> Colorado theater was a publicity stunt.

    that would not surprise me…

  32. John Chingford says:

    Cyprus Guy

    True Christians are strongly opposed to the Illuminati because the illuminati are influenced, controlled and led by satan

  33. cyprus guy says:

    i know and i believe strongly in God and i think that the illuminati will fall ,sometime but still is there a date and a clue of what those satanists will do?

  34. Cyprus guy

    If you read your bible it will tell you exactly what will happen in the end. The thing is Cyprus guy, Jesus is coming back to ‘rapture’ His church (those who are born again) before the Tribulation starts. You do not want to go through the tribulation – because God is not going to let His children (Church) go through the tribulation. The tribulation is a time where the AntiChrist will rule this earth and there will be bloodshed like you have never seen before. The tribulation will also be a time where God pours out His ANGER on mankind for not following Him. So it’s a double dose of horror.

    So, you should not be worried as to whether the illuminati will fall, because everyone who does not believe in Jesus Christ will fall, including you if you are not TRULY born again. To say you ‘know and believe strongly in God’ is not the same as being saved. Are you saved Cyprus guy?

    The tribulation is coming soon, only a few years away. You do not want to go through it because if you do, you will have to make a choice; follow the AntiChrist and take the mark of the Beast and be doomed to hell, or profess Jesus Christ as your Lord and Saviour and be tortured and beheaded.

    It’s not a pretty picture of what is coming, but it’s coming… so you need to make a decision soon, is Jesus Christ the Son of God your personal Saviour, do you believe He died on the cross for you and shed His blood for you and that He resurrected and ascended into Heaven. Have you asked Jesus into your heart and repented of your sinful ways and want to live a life that makes Jesus happy?

    Heb 3:15; “While it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation.”
    Rev 3:22; “He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.”

  35. cyprus guy says:

    the real thing is that i feel kind of unlucky because i know that ill have to go through this i would always find myself saying ”why in my years”but if we see it from another point of view we are lucky because the people i personally know to have died without making a choice we will have the opportunity……..thank you Deborah you are real help
    and know a lot of things

  36. Cyprus Guy

    My dear, you do not have to go through what is coming if you make a decision to change your life now. Satan wants everyone to go through the tribulation, because he knows if you wont make a decision to accept Jesus when your life is going well, what are the chances you will accept Jesus when things are going bad.

    In fact Cyprus guy, there is a good chance that you and the people you know will hate Jesus because of what is going on in the world and actually blame Him, instead of blaming Satan. The Bible says this is going to happen! That people will blame God, and blaspheme His name even more because of the incredible pain they are suffering, and still refuse to turn TO HIM.

    Please I beg of you Cyprus guy, if the Holy Spirit is calling you, (if you hear a gentle whisper, like another conscience speaking to you) telling you that you need to accept Jesus, please do not turn away from that voice, that is God speaking to you. Yes, God! is speaking to YOU Cyprus guy. He wants you to accept His only Son Jesus Christ, so that His blood can wash away your sins and you can become a child of God.

    Do not ignore this Cyprus guy, if you do, it will be to your detriment when the tribulation comes.

  37. The Town Crier says:

    You are dead wrong on the rapture theory.Here are some questions for Rapture believers to ask themselves…

    If there is going to be a rapture of believers, explain these passages of scripture…

    Jas 1:12 Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him. [DTW note: This is for people who suffer trials and tribulations while on earth, this has nothing to do with THE tribulation, a time period of 7 years set aside of ISRAEL.]

    Mat 24:13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. [DTW note: This is the life time of the believer, he who is steadfast in the gospel till the end of his life will be saved. This has nothing to do with the tribulation.]
    Mat 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come. [DTW note: And the gospel will be preached during the tribulation, right till the end]

    Mat 13:49 So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,
    Mat 13:50 And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. [DTW note: This is the seperation of the sheep and the goats on Judgement day at the very end of the tribulation where Satan will be cast into the lake of fire before the Millenial reigh of Jesus Christ.]

    Mat 13:30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

    Mat 13:38 The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;
    Mat 13:39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.
    Mat 13:40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.
    Mat 13:41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; [DTW: This is all part of a selection of PARABLES. It refers to the day of Judgement, when people who are alive are sorted, the righteous and the wicked. Matt 25:32 “And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats” and Matt 13:49 “So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just]

    Pro 2:21 For the upright shall dwell in the land, and the perfect shall remain in it. [DTW note: These verses are speaking to the Israelite. Prov 2:20 “That thou mayest walk in the way of good men, and keep the paths of the righteous.” Prov 2:21 “For the upright shall dwell in the land, and the perfect shall remain in it.” These verses, like the rest of the Old Testament, speak of earthly rewards since the heavenly rewards were not revealed yet. Here the Israelite will dwell in the land when the lawless Gentiles and the transgressing Israelites will be rooted out of it. But the Christians reward is far better, we have our inheritance in Heaven.]

    Luk 17:34 I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left.
    Luk 17:35 Two women shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
    Luk 17:36 Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
    Luk 17:37 And they answered and said unto him, Where, Lord? And he said unto them, Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together.
    [DTW note: This is the most amazing scripture to prove a rapture, but everyone who wants to ignore that Jesus is coming back to fetch them will misquote this because they DO NOT understand what CARCASS and EAGLES mean. “Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together.” Dispensationally, the CARCASS, refers to the rotting mass of false professing so calles Christians centered in Jerusalem in the last days. The EAGLES are the armies of the nations that will be gathered together against that city of Jerusalem. If he look at it morally, the lesson is a very solemn one for every unsaved person and every person who does not wish Jesus Christ to come back and take them home *Blessed Hope* as they find themselves in the hand of the Living God and His 3 and a half years of WARTH on this earth. Like eagles, or vultures, devouring rotting carcasses, so the judgments of God will fall on all who have SHUNNED His grace, transgressed against the Lord!

    The word carcase is used in Matthew:

    Mat 24:27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
    Mat 24:28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.

    [DTW note: After the rapture, wherever the carcass (false Christians are) there will be the eagles (the army of God – Reference to Joel 2) gathered against Jerusalem]

    We are told that the carcases are for those who transgressed against the Lord

    Isa 66:22 For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain.
    Isa 66:23 And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD.
    Isa 66:24 And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh. [DTW note: this is at the end of the tribulation, the start of the Millennial reign. This ‘carcass’ actually refers to dead people, those slain by the Lord in the last great battle near Jerusalem. (Zech 12:2-9 Zech 14:2-4) And has nothing to do with the verses above.]

    They will be rooted out:

    Pro 2:22 But the wicked shall be cut off from the earth, and the transgressors shall be rooted out of it. [“”]

    The righteous will not be removed:

    Pro 10:30 The righteous shall never be removed: but the wicked shall not inhabit the earth. [DTW note: see above re this verse is for an Israelite, our treasures are in Heaven]

    Jesus prayed that we would not be taken out but kept from evil

    Joh 17:15 I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil. [DTW note: Pay attention, the tribulation is a TIME SET ASIDE FOR ISRAEL! We are born into an evil world. It would be ridiculous if Jesus prayed to take us out of this world. No He instead prayed that we are kept from evil. Living in a sinful, evil world full of crime and murder is not the same as living during the set time of the coming tribulation. The worlds tribulations are NOT THE TRIBULATION.]

    Daniel prophesied that many would go through a time of refinement and be made wise:

    Dan 12:10 Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand. [DTW note: This is during the tribulation. Millions of people will be purified and made white and tried for their convictions. Dan 11:33 And they that understand among the people shall instruct many: yet they shall fall by the sword, and by flame, by captivity, and by spoil, many days. Dan 11:34 Now when they shall fall, they shall be holpen with a little help: but many shall cleave to them with flatteries. Dan 11:35 And some of them of understanding shall fall, to try them, and to purge, and to make them white, even to the time of the end: because it is yet for a time appointed.”]

    The virgins are wise

    The virgins who have enough oil in the lamp to endure until the end:

    Mat 25:1 Then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened unto ten virgins, which took their lamps, and went forth to meet the bridegroom.
    Mat 25:2 And five of them were wise, and five were foolish.
    Mat 25:3 They that were foolish took their lamps, and took no oil with them:
    Mat 25:4 But the wise took oil in their vessels with their lamps.

    [DTW note: Oh my goodness, you know what Town Crier… seriously??? The virgins with no OIL left are Virins who profess Jesus Christ (like you) but do not actually believe in the true Gospel of Jesus Christ. You are a Christian by name, but you have not been REGENERATED. So far your understanding of scripture leaves VERY little to be desired. You follow REPLACEMENT THEOLOGY, you are anit-Israel if you do not give Israel their set time in History which is GOD’S PROMISE TO THEM.]

    [DTW note: I’m deleting the rest of your scriptures because I have read through them and honestly… REALLY?????? O_O]

    I would love to have a public forum discussion with you on this and prove every one of your rapture theories wrong. This spreading of false doctrine is going to break the hearts of many who need to trust God in the end. [ DTW note: ja, right what a load of noodles! ]

  38. Kate Akele says:

    Thanks for the info and why am I not surprised about the Olympics? Curiously and maybe because of work, I haven’t been interested in the euphoria surrounding this and other sporting events.

  39. The Town Crier says:

    [deleted – You are laughable, you don’t know your bible so in order to make up for it you attack me personally and accuse me of being a woman not being allowed to preach. Funny you should have said that first, but you wanted to debate this woman, she kicked your b-hind and showed you that you don’t know your bible and now you are moping. You should be ashamed of yourself.]

  40. charles allan says:

    The Rapture Theory
    If we look at the most commended type of church in Revelations – the church of Philadelphia :-
    Rev 3:10
    Because you have kept My command to persevere, I also will keep you from the hour of trial which shall come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth.

    I thought this might be the rapture or a hiding place.

    Google up commentaries on the seven churches of asia to see what kind of Christian this

  41. Boink says:

    “Luna” is the Moon, dumbass.

  42. Dear Boink

    Of course, you cannot know what is meant here unless you have a comprehensive understanding of what “Sol” and “Luna” means according to occultists.

    “Now Sol is Masculine forasmuch as he sendeth forth active and energizing seed, Luna is Feminine or Negative and she is called the Matrix of Nature, because she receiveth the sperm, and fostereth it by monthly provision, yet doth Luna not altogether want in positive or active virtue.”

    But “Luna”, obviously then, could not be “the Moon”, for what growth comes from combining the Sun with the Moon? The Alchemist was not so lazy in his treatise.

    “By the name of Luna Philosophers understand not the vulgar Moon, which also may be positive in its operation, and in combining acts a positive part. Let none therefore presume to try the unnatural combination of two positives, neither let him conceive any hope of issue from such association; but he shall join Gabritius to Beia, and offer sister to brother in firm union, that from thence he may receive Sol’s noble Son.”

    Luna, in this case, clearly means “Earth” and the Feminine resident within and influenced by Luna, as it were. –

    Please note, I do not believe in this rubbish, it is nothing but satanic lies.

  43. Dan says:

    Deborah, I don’t know if you want to post this or not. But maybe this is a clue as to what has already happened and is happening at the Olympics.

  44. Myfanwy Brown says:

    LOL…I think Boink just got bounced!!

  45. Dan

    Thanks for the video. Indeed, the stage was one big occult ceremony. It’s a pity this guy in the video did not explain in more detail the SUN GOD worship at the end of the ceremony where the lady sang a gospel worship song as people danced a pagan dance under a sun. Also the Angel of Death over all the children. All the demons, and oh boy… those copper leaves for each country that were lit in the end to form a burning tree of life.

  46. Redeemed says:

    There is certainly much to process on this video. One thing that jumps out at me is that the woman narrator apparently believes that we are now in the Great Tribulation. Did anyone else come up with this? Many of the verses she quoted would be occurring after the Rapture of the Church wouldn’t they? That is, if one holds to a Pre-trib Rapture.

    I do think that this video calls for some clarification.

  47. Myfanwy Brown says:

    All very interesting Debs..

    I was not going to watch the opening ceremony, but then my older son came over and him, me and my youngest son watched it together. What struck me is that it did seem so ordinary, but I knew there were evil things behind it all. I did not pick up on the ‘burning tree’ altho’ I did think the ‘petals’ as they described them, were very odd and definitely symbolic.

    Of course they included JK Rowling and all her evil characters..and then the so-called ‘doves of peace’..ha!

    The singer was a British woman called Emily Sande, and she sang ‘Abide with Me’…a song sung at British football, see link..

    You can see how the public can be easily fooled, and,I was determined NOT to look under evey stone for a demon.. but there it all was, blindingly obvious!

    I thought the Queen looked stressed and tired. Charles, Camilla, William, Kate and Harry were all there.

    Did anyone here ever see that picture of Harry dressed in a Nazi uniform when he went to a fancy dress party? Just a thought..

  48. Myfanwy Brown says:

    Debs..have you listened to that first video posted on here, the one with the man’s picture that says. ‘2012 The year of the Beast’ the bottom right of the ZION sign??

  49. John Chingford says:

    I saw this comment from Tony Pearce which was spot on regarding the opening ceremony to the Olympics. Here it is:

    What Tony Pearce seemed to have missed (maybe took a bathroom break) was this part of the OC showing the sun worship which NBC would not show. I would like to know what the relevance is it to the hymn which was sung or how it relates to 7/7 deaths?

  50. John Chingford says:

    Deborah, I have just noticed that someone left a video (after Tony Pearce’s comment) and then given their interpretation.

    Does that person’s comments ring true to you? Too me I CANNOT see it! Okay, I am not very good at understanding the stories behind a dance sequence, but what I see in that amateur video is something demonic. If it is not sun worship, it looks like a submission to UFO’s or something. How do you read it by comparing
    both the videos I have listed?

  51. Redeemded

    >> the woman narrator apparently believes that we are now in the Great Tribulation

    Oh good grief… I must have been smoking my socks, I missed this vital part.

    People, we are NOT in the Tribulation, or Great Tribulation.

  52. Myfanwy

    >> I thought the Queen looked stressed and tired

    Actually I thought she looked ‘uninterested’ and ‘mean and nasty’

  53. John

    Nope it’s definitely Sun God worship, I mentioned it already above 🙂

  54. John Chingford says:

    As an opening sequence to the BBC showing the start of the opening ceremony, there was a countdown from 47 to 1.

    Did anyone from outside the UK also see it? It showed various London sites with numbers, like the bus number 43, the speed limit 30 and 10 Downing Street. So it showed all the numbers clearly from 47 to 1. However, when it got to 7 it seemed to miss number 6 and went straight to 5. I wondered why, so looked up the video and moved slowly (stopping and starting) from 7 to 5 to see if I could spot the 6.

    I found the 6 and paused on it. It was completely different from every other number within the sequence. It was like they wanted you to miss it or cause it to enter your soul/mind sub consciously. The six was represented by the little hand on the six on a clock tower as apparently 6 O’ Clock. Actually it was showing as one minute before 6 O’clock or as 5.59. Could that be significant?

    I thought it was so odd why the 6 was represented so differently from all the other numbers. Therefore, I decided to take a good look at the clock. This is what you can see: the little hand was on the 6, but if you look at the face of the clock tower, you will see it has the occultic star symbol with its 6 points within a circle which produces another 6 triangles. What we (effectively) see on the clock is 666. It seems to indicate that the ac is about to appear because it is just one minute before 6 O’clock.

    Am I reading into this too much? It is just that I am wondering why they skipped over that 6 so quickly.

    [EDITED by DTW- Added snapshots of countdown as requested by John

    London Games Countdown Clock Tower – No6
    London Games Countdown – No 47
    London Games Countdown – No 43]

  55. Dan says:

    John, I think after the rapture, governments, scientists and the media are probably going to tell the people left behind that the missing people were abducted by aliens. The devil using this to get more control over people in a kind of “join us and we’ll protect you against the aliens” kinda way. I think that’s the whole point of the alien / UFO theory being invented in the first place. Just my opinion though.

  56. John

    I am guessing you are not reading to much into it because there is probably MORE stuff we have not seen that they included in this whole disgusting show.

    I can’t view the video, only for UK peeps.

  57. What I want to know is what were those bright moth things on those bicycles? They rode around the stadium with their wings flapping and then one took off and flew up into the stadium. What was that all about?

  58. Oh my word… That big ugly baby has major significant meaning…

    They let everyone know that the AC had been born…see picture:

    They had children dance in a ring to the one side of the baby to the song, “GOOD CHRISTIAN MEN, REJOICE”. Repeating the words over and over; “Christ is born today, Christ is born today”

    Good Christian men, rejoice with heart and soul, and voice;
    Give ye heed to what we say: News! News! Jesus Christ is born today;
    Ox and ass before Him bow; and He is in the manger now.
    Christ is born today! Christ is born today!

    Good Christian men, rejoice, with heart and soul and voice;
    Now ye hear of endless bliss: Joy! Joy! Jesus Christ was born for this!
    He has opened the heavenly door, and man is blest forevermore.
    Christ was born for this! Christ was born for this!

    Good Christian men, rejoice, with heart and soul and voice;
    Now ye need not fear the grave: Peace! Peace! Jesus Christ was born to save!
    Calls you one and calls you all, to gain His everlasting hall.
    Christ was born to save! Christ was born to save!

  59. What I also found interesting was the movie batman and the title called, The Dark Knight Rises. I immediately thought it was a plan on words, meaning Lucifer Rising.

  60. John

    Actually I think they were not counting down from 47, 47 means nothing. But 4+7= 11 and 11 is the master occult number and represent sin, transgression and peril. Symbolically they started counting from 11.

    Of course this is all satanic lies told by Satan and I am just telling it they way they would believe this stuff, I do not believe this stuff of course.

  61. Paul (Continue in His Word) says:

    When I look at this song GOOD CHRISTIAN MEN, REJOICE, which is a Christ-Mass song, being used by Satan to usher in the AC, I WONDER why Bible-Believing Christian churches ever follow the world and apostate Rome in celebrating this evil-pagan day. You may call it Nativity or whatever you want, but the world knows it is Christ-Mass.
    In the parable given by Jesus in Matt 13:33, was He not saying that in the last days, the entire christendom will be leavened with the leaven of Rome?

    Mat 13:33 Another parable spake he unto them; The kingdom of heaven is like unto leaven, which a woman took, and hid in three measures of meal, till the whole was leavened.

    A little leaven leaveneth the whole lump.
    A Church that follows Rome to celebrates “Nativity” today, will be back into Rome’s fold within a hundred years (if the rapture doesn’t occur before)
    And I will say the same thing about Easter, whether you re-baptize it “Resurrection Sunday” or not. (I thought that for us true Bible-Believing Christian, every Lord’s Day was Resurrection Sunday. Isn’t it)

    Why for the life of me don’t we simply stick to what is in the Scripture?
    My family and I now attend a Fundamentalist Independent Baptist church. It is probably the only place in town which still practices Biblical Christianity. I mean, to the best of my knowledge, all the other places are wholly leavened. Yet, it appears, come December, our church will follow Rome in “celebrating” Christ-Mass. It saddens me so much. But where else can I go? I see the writing on the wall: That little leaven will end up leavening the whole lump. But I cannot stay at home with my family. Surely there is no perfect church. In many places they don’t have anything close to what we have. Nevertheless, I am very sad, and I beseech my Lord to not tarry.

  62. Myfanwy Brown says:

    Debs, about that video above that I mentioned to you, the small one below right of the pink ZION logo…the woman narrator says Zionists are Christian and Jewish ‘fanatics’, and people in the background say ‘boooo’…lol

    Wow, I don’t know how, but I missed that baby and them singing the hymn..and I watched the whole Olymoics ceremony!!

    John, I am going to check that video out, also now so I can see the baby, urgh!

    That other video posted sounds like the same woman narrator that I was referring to, and yes,. she is saying we are in the tribulation.

  63. Myfanwy Brown says:

    Those bright blue moth things were called ‘doves of peace’..yeah yeah! I did notice that one was elevated to the top middle of the stadium and sort of hovered there, creepy!

  64. John Chingford says:

    I gave a link to an amateur viewing of the sun worship/UFO during abide with me above on It didn’t stay online long. Youtube have already removed it saying “this video contains content from International Olympic Committee, who has blocked it on copyright grounds”. That is so revealing. It WAS NOT copyright, surely! It was taken from someone’s own camcorder. What are the authorities trying to hide? Has anyone seen the link I gave before it got removed? What were your observations?

  65. John Chingford says:

    The rising sun that appeared later hung over the worshippers and (on the video that was removed) suddenly looked like an enormous flying saucer with streams of light falling onto the worshippers.

    The sequence of “abide with me” came as the last section just before the olympic teams did their march around the stadium. The boy at the climax of the presentation arose in the middle of the crowd of worshippers (like an ascension) and pointed towards (looked like he actually touched) the stars above him or was he pointing towards the large UFO? The stars were all 6 pointed stars. The boy was dressed in white and the worshippers in red.

    My personal opinion is that the boy represents a young ac soon to be revealed. I guess a bit like “Damion”. He embraced an adult also dressed in white. Could that mean that the boy has become a man?

    Some are saying that some form of disaster will hit London on 3rd Aug or 8/3 = 11. Could the 47 (11) be an attempt to mask the 8/3. If the countdown started from 38 it may have been too obvious. The difference between 47 and 38 is 9. So we have 9/11 again.

    It is interesting that the first sports activities at the Olympic stadium (the athletics)start on 3rd Aug.

    We need to be careful not to get caught up on wild speculations nor fear mongering. Let us use this information to look upwards and pray. The enemy cannot do anything if God intervenes, so let us cry out to God urgently. It seems that the enemy of our soul’s (through the occultic authorities) is trying to pre-empt things, i.e trying to bring in the Great Tribulation before the rapture takes place. God will not allow the GT to commence until after the rapture.

    I am reminded what Jesus often said words to the effect “my time is not yet”. The enemy was (even during Jesus life on Earth) trying to pre-empt things.

    On another point, some spectators noticed and recorded UFO images high over the stadium. I am not sure about those UFO images. It could be a blimp. The image is not conclusive what it is. It could be deliberately part of the OC.

  66. John Chingford says:

    look at psalms 2:1-5

    “Why do the heathen rage, and the people imagine a vain thing? The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers take counsel together, against the Lord, and against his anointed, saying, Let us break their bands asunder, and cast away their cords from us. He that sitteth in the heavens shall laugh: the Lord shall have them in derision. Then shall he speak unto them in his wrath, and vex them in his sore displeasure.”

    Their plans WILL fail if it is not the Lord’s time and if HE has other plans. This is why I ask you to intercede (crying out to God) at this time for His intervention and mercy.

    Having said this, it is clear that Britain and the whole world is ripe for the Great Tribulation with occulticism EVERYWHERE and being CELEBRATED so openly and with such enthusiasm.

  67. Peace doves? You kidding. Looked like moths lol.

  68. John Chingford says:

    For Our Intercession

    For the same reasons as I already mentioned. However, I would like us to intercede not just for 3rd August but for 12th Aug also.

    We discussed the countdown starting from 47. 47 is 9 more than 38 which is the day that (as I understand it) security will be at a higher level. It is the day when for many the olympics really start to boil up when the Olympic stadium reopens for business with the athletics. However, 9 days later is the closing ceremony on the 12th of August. That could be why the countdown started at 47 i.e 9 days after 3/8 or 38.

    As I stated above and as the bible tells us in many places “fear not”. Jesus said “fear not, I have overcome the world”. Nothing will happen outside of God’s control and He Will intervene. However, WE ARE called to pray earnestly.

  69. Redeemed says:

    John, thank you for all your “on the ground” input/report that the rest of us are not able to capture for one reason or another.

    There are certainly more things going on here that a first glance don’t reveal. But we are to test and examine and you have wisely exhorted us not to get entrenched into the web of deceit but rather to look to the Lord and His Word and know that He is still on the throne and nothing or no man can derail His plan.

    We are certainly to be aware and alert and you are doing a valuable service to the Body by doing this. I am sure that many Christians will be fooled into thinking that including the hymn “Abide With Me” was a Christian gesture when in fact it was a mockery of the Almighty God and our Lord Jesus Christ!

  70. Redeemed says:

    Paul, I hear you and join your cry. But our focus has to be to reach the lost before the final curtain falls on the current dispensation of grace. I understand your aversion to the celebration of Christmas, but please remember that many sincere believers celebrate it in such a way as not to compromise with the world and use it as a way to bring Jesus to the forefront.

    May I call your attention to this link – please let me know what you think. The author was a fundamental preacher of the Gospel.I know this is not the topic of this thread, and don’t mean to open up a discussion on this, but since it was brought up I wanted to respond. I understand your sincerity and heart’s cry and do not want to be contentious on this issue. May the Lord bless and encourage you.

  71. Please note:

    I would just like to say I have made a big mistake by getting too involved at looking at these London Games to deeply by going into numbers and all sorts of things, I of all people (because of my history) should have known this. I have repented to Jesus Christ for this and I would like everyone to please stop. Yes we know the ceremony was evil – what we could immediately see from the onset from watching was enough to let us know it was evil. But Satan is smart, he took our eyes of Jesus for a time and placed it onto these games by making us figure out occult puzzles.

    I am truly sorry for this.

  72. John

    Please see my comment above. I think one should just pray for the whole event, not pray because one has used occult numerology to work out at date to pray about.

  73. Myfanwy Brown says:


    I totally agree with you, I have been looking at this stuff on and off, and also reading comments here, and things online. I already had the feeling that I should not allow myself to be distracted, or get too involved, but as you say, satan is clever, and I kept going down that road!

    Anyway, last night I just prayed and asked the Lord to protect my family who live in London.. and my son, who is at uni in London. He is home for the holidays, but he has been going back to London frequently to see friends. We must just ask the Lord for His mercy and protection, and not concentrate on satan or his evildoing. The LORD really impressed that on my heart last night. GOD is in control.

  74. Redeemed says:

    Debs, I appreciate your honesty and humility to admit that this topic has delved too far into the dark world. It is a fine line and the boundaries between healthy awareness and giving glory to Satan are not clear. Yes, we are to be aware and this is a major world event. But we must keep in mind that all of this is nothing new and just a precursor to what is coming after the Church is taken out. There is an ongoing agenda to “program” and condition the world to accept the final domination of one world rule. It all comes from the same place and the same enemy.

    Thank you for alerting us, and thank you for calling a halt to discussion on the topic. Our focus is to be on the Blessed Hope. We have nothing to fear for ourselves, but others who are beieng sucked into the vortex are in grave danger. The only thing that can open their eyes is the Lord and His Holy Spirit.

    The Olympics is a major world event, but the only major world event that matters is the Rapture of the Church and the eternal destiny of souls.

    Please keep warning us and keep listening to the Holy Spirit as to helping us to keep within the lines and the best way to use this knowledge to glorify the LORD.

  75. starlight says:

    Dear Debs and readers. I read through the Olympics article and comments. I enjoyed the swimming and marathons. It is true that non of us can make the world better, not by any humanitarian acts. Good works have their place but without the preaching of the gospel, they’re fruitless (faith without works is dead)This world is subject to decay and only Jesus Christ when He returns at His 2nd coming will usher in the 1000 year physical reign and rule by HIMSELF – real UTOPIA on earth for sure because it will be under his rule. This current world is going to get progressively SUPER evil as the Bible describes. We also can’t just brush aside the realities mentioned in the article – the movers and shakers of this globe are working hand in hand with satan himself because the devil knows his time is short. The Illuminati is a horrifying reality. The rapture of the believers in JC is the next [best&real] event on God’s calendar (thank U God!!)and thereafter “he will confirm a covenant with many for 7 years” (Dan 9:27). This will mark the beginning of 7 yrs of tribulation under a real, physical man of sin known in the Bible as the anti-christ. Matthew 24:21-22 will become a reality – it’s on the horizon. Let us focus on JC and tell people of His saving grace, that He came to save mankind from SIN and hell. We were all hellbound BUT Jesus rescued us on that cruel cross. As for this earth, it will be destroyed by fire. None of this is symbolic – the Bible must be interpreted literally. As for Israel, we need to pray too for their salvation. The message is clear and simple. Yeshua is the Jewish Messiah. Keep your eyes on the ME and Israel, God’s prophetic timeclock. The Jews are back in their land and God again will be turning and focussing on His people, Israel- He always comes full circle. Thanks Debs that you boldly support these biblical views and for your great articles that you post on this site. You keep us informed and none of us are excused for being biblically iliterate. We’re not living in the dark ages; we too can do extensive research today. I shudder when I listen to some of my friends (born again) who are (excuse the term) downright stupid, blindly following blind leaders today. Let us speak the truth boldly and pray for the ignorant. Blessings to u all (note: I do not expect u to hold to these views in my writing but I would encourage you to search the scriptures for yourself :-))

  76. starlight says:

    Hallelujah “Redeemed”. Ditto to all you’ve said. We are looking for that Blessed Hope indeed! Look up saints for when we see these things, we know that our redemption draws nigh.

  77. Tom Lessing says:

    The following article is taken from

    HBO’s “Protocols of Zion” [Excerpts]

    By Steven Stalinsky

    This month marks the 100 year anniversary of the first printing of the infamous anti-Semitic forgery, “Protocols of the Elders of Zion.” The anniversary will be commemorated throughout the world including a two day conference at Boston University’s Elie Wiesel Center for Judaic Studies. Tonight in New York, HBO Films will premier the documentary “Protocols of Zion” by Marc Levin’s Blowback Productions ( The documentary will be screened later in the month in selected theatres throughout America.

    “The Protocols” are frequently referred to in the Arab and Iranian press connecting Jewish conspiracies to among other things: assassinations of Arab leaders; the war in Iraq; control of Hollywood, the press, economics, and world resources; and on an alleged war on Islam. As Levin’s film illustrates, the most popular conspiracies are related to Jewish involvement in the 9-11 attacks.

    For example, the president of the Middle East Center for Studies and Public Relations, Hisham Jaber, appeared on Hezbollah’s Al-Manar TV on July 11, 2005 stating: “I believe the events of 9-11 were not . . . perpetrated by Al Qaeda alone . . . it is global Zionism that stands to gain the most from this . . . we know that since the Protocols of the Elders of Zion, Zionism has forged the New Testament – and by now, 60 million in the U.S. alone have left Christianity to become believers in the Torah. Global Zionism has tried to forge the Holy Koran . . . ”

    Leading Palestinian Authority religious figures often cite the “Protocols.” Saudi Al-Majd TV aired an interview on February 20 with Palestinian Mufti Ikrima Sabri on the assassination of Lebanese leader Rafiq Al-Hariri: “The Protocols of the Elders of Zion’ and specifically the Talmud will discover that one of the goals of these protocols is to cause confusion in the world and to undermine security throughout the world.”

    Another example includes a Palestinian Authority TV Friday sermon by Sheik Ibrahim Mudeiris on April 16, 2004: “Our battle with our enemy is great . . . We face a battle against the Crusaders and against World Zionism, which was exposed by the French intellectual, Garoudy, some 20 years ago . . . He converted to Islam and wrote of World Zionism’s covetous aspirations, based on ‘The Protocols of the Elders of Zion.'”

    Mark Levin’s documentary will make an important contribution to all future historical studies of the Protocols (

  78. Tom Lessing says:

    Another article from The Berean Call on the forgery of the “Protocols of the Elders of Zion”

    The Grave Threat of Arab-Muslim Anti-Semitism
    TBC Staff
    The Grave Threat of Arab-Muslim Anti-Semitism [Excerpts]

    Anti-Semitism and the accompanying hate industry are a strategic danger for Israel and the Jewish people: generations of Palestinians, Arabs and Muslims are brought up hating the Jews;…indiscriminate Palestinian terrorism against Israel is made palatable, as is Hezbollah’s Shi’ite terrorism and that of Al-Qaeda, when directed against Israel and Jews around the world.

    So say the just-released main findings of a major, 180-page study on “Contemporary Arab-Muslim Anti-Semitism” by Israel’s Intelligence and Terrorism Information Center. The study will be widely distributed among Israeli policymakers and should also be read attentively by policymakers in other countries who deal with the “Arab-Israeli conflict”–which means particularly American policymakers.

    Among the report’s other key findings are that:

    * Arab-Muslim anti-Semitism “is generally directed against Israel as a Jewish-Zionist state as an enemy of the Arab-Muslim world….” In other words, the emphasis is not on Israel’s alleged injustices toward the Palestinians or “occupation,” but on Israel’s very existence. It is widely believed—axiomatically in some quarters—that the “Arab-Israeli conflict” has now been whittled down to the “Israeli-Palestinian conflict” and resolving the latter will put the whole issue to rest. That, of course, cannot be right when the focus of the hatred is on Israel itself and not on its policies, or shape or size.

    “Arab-Muslim anti-Semitism has a broad field, rather than being marginal. It is not only popular among the lower classes nor is it the exclusive province of intellectuals, opposition groups or radical Islamic movements. Arab-Muslim regimes in the Middle East all use it….” The study notes that this not only includes regimes like Syria, Saudi Arabia, and Lebanon but also the two, Egypt and Jordan, that have signed peace treaties with Israel.

    “Anti-Semitism with Muslim roots is growing. Verses from the Qur’an and the Islamic oral tradition are politically interpreted in the spirit of radical Islam to delegitimize Zionism and the State of Israel and to dehumanize the Jewish people.” That is, while there is still much importation of European anti-Semitism—for instance, The Protocols of the Elders of Zion is now “being published in new editions in Egypt, Syria, Iran and other countries”–the hatred is now increasingly indigenous and locally rooted, making it even harder to change.“

  79. Tom Lessing says:

    charles allan wrote:

    I know the book is apocrypha but it is interesting history. In the book of maccabees
    Judas Maccabeus wins all the battles with the Jews who started to follow the greek customs
    of olympic sports. Sports are just body worship which is meaningless for salvation – the
    olympics are full of wordly abominations. ‘I make no provision for the body’ Paul.
    There is also immodest dress and weird symbols. It is earthly and fleshly and Christians should avoid all of it.

    If Christians are to avoid everything reeking of pagan worship (I’m not saying that we should partake in anything that dishonors God), then we should leave this world. Even our days are named after pagan gods.

  80. sheugnet says:

    Martin Horan, don’t think because you have read ‘Protocols of Zion’, that you know all about Zionism. Rather read the Babilonian Talmud to know what drives them… if you dare…

  81. charles allan says:

    Everyone who competes in the games goes into strict training. They do it to get a crown that will NOT LAST ; but we do it (training in the Word) to get a crown that will last forever. (1 Cor 9:25)

    In other words the Olympic Crown is worthless idolatry.

  82. Martin Horan says:

    Hi Deborah. You say that I have clearly not been watching what has been going on over the years. I have, actually and in detail.
    The term Zionist, as I know it, means people who back Israel whether political or not. You have your definition, which is obviously one of several.
    God Himself refers to Israel as Zion several places in the Bible and that’s good enough for me to apply the term Zionist to myself. It’s what “Christian Zionists” mean when they use that term; or it does the ones I know. Like many terms it means different things to other people.
    Many if not most Arabs/Moslems would call me a Zionist as they do anyone who backs Israel in any way shape or form. I’m happy with them calling me a Zionist because I stand against almost everything these people believe. Many of them–if not most–would kill me for the things I believe about God, Christ, Mohammad, the Koran, Haddiths and the Jews and Israel.
    I have read very much on The British Royal family, actually, and have not found anywhere (personally, admittedly) where they themselves have openly declared to be descendants of the House of Israel. But I would greatly appreciate any conclusive evidence to back such a claim.
    I know that the British Israelite believers make that claim. I have read much of their literature which I find neither historical, biblical nor even logical. All of their arguments, which I have read in detail, are a mixture of circular “Reasoning”, selected facts, ad hominem and straw men arguing. (Forgive me if I have mentioned this before.)
    In fact, I have read the British Royal family’s genealogies in detail, having an MA, among other qualifications, in History. As any sound historian will testify, these genealogies do not relate in any way to either the Jews generally or Israel, per se.
    In the staunch monarchist Sir Iain Moncrieff’s genealogy I can find nothing about Israel though he writes of England’s, Scotland’s and Wales’ earliest kings but in no connection to Britain. Interestingly, he does give the present queen’s genealogy back to Mohammad II of Seville, among all her other known ancestors–these include most, if not all the Royal houses of Europe and other non-European nations.
    Admittedly, the British Royal Family have been steeped in spiritualism (see John Dale’s book “The Prince and the Paranormal” on Amazon; you can check my own review there) and Freemasonry. Freemasonry itself may be where this spurious idea of history comes from because I know some Masons, and Orangemen, hold to this unscriptural idea.
    But while the British Royals may hold that believe personally, I doubt if you would find it admitted anywhere publicly.
    Their advisers are not stupid and are, rather, very astute. They know such a believe is not verifiable so they would advise any member of the monarchy to keep such a belief quiet. Prince Charles has already got himself into much trouble in the past because of his New Age believe and no longer advocates them openly.
    As a journalist who takes research seriously, I have never managed to find the Royal Family’s espousal of Anglo-Israelism or their claim to an Israelite bloodline–which is why I’d be deeply grateful to anyone who can point me to it. Though I doubt if they will.
    I think it would be best, Derborah, if you would avoid appearing to be personal. It detracts from all excellent comments you otherwise make and can hint at subjectivity.

  83. Uriel says:

    You guys are taking things way too seriously! Just hold on to Jesus and His Spirit and let Him guide you.

  84. Martin

    >> I think it would be best, Derborah, if you would avoid appearing to be personal

    No ways dude, I can’t believe you said that.

    Oh boy, what next.

  85. Redeemed says:

    Uriel, the Bible tells us that we had better be taking things seriously. Those types who just “love Jesus” and go on their merry way are not watching and will fall into a trap.

    God expects us to be discerning. And did you read Deborah’s final comments about broaching this subject? Maybe you should go back and do so.

    Think of the multitudes of people who just took in all that occult stuff and didn’t even blink an eye. That leads to deception. Someone needs to call it out for what it is.

    Doesn’t the Bible say we are to “expose the deeds of darkness”?

  86. Paul (Continue in His Word) says:


    In response to your comment #71.
    I read Dr Rice article, and it brought tears to my eyes, how shallow his arguments are.
    No wonder ALL his daughters (and I mean ALL) are now Roman Catholic-Emergent-Ecumenical. The seeds were sown by their father’ compromise.

    Read this article about the christian and Christmas.
    one of the key statements of the article is this:

    “But again, such considerations bring into sharp focus how tradition-bound, instead of Bible-bound, many Christians have become. What a sad situation it is when God’s people cannot find the strength to break free from something so beneficial to the devil’s cause! CHRISTMAS IS ONE OF THE GREATEST THINGS WHICH EVER HAPPENED TO THE ROMAN CHURCH. It is the pope’s time to shine in his usurped office as supreme head of the universal “Christian” church. Christmas is a propaganda bonanza for the ecumenical movement, to say the least. Christian churches openly celebrating it unwittingly play the part of the Vatican II separated brethren and TESTIFY TO THE WORLD THAT THE ROMAN CATHOLIC CHURCH IS THE TRUE CHRISTIAN CHURCH. Just think for one moment what a testimony it would be, what a distinction it would draw, what a contrast it would provide if Christ’s true Church refused to celebrate the Roman whore’s holiday with her.”


    Christmas and the

    By Pastor Ralph Ovadal,
    December 24, 2004

    "But in vain they do
    worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men."
    Matthew 15:9

    again, ’tis the season. Centuries ago, without any mandate from the
    Scriptures and consequently no example from the apostolic church, the
    Roman Catholic Church instituted a "holy day" known as the Mass
    of Christ. Or do you say Christmas? The advent of the day which ostensibly
    celebrates the advent of Christ had everything to do with the Roman church
    "Christianizing" paganism or paganizing Christianity. Whichever
    way one wants to slice it, the end result is a net gain for the devil.
    The high holy day called Christmas which is
    celebrated throughout "Christendom" is not just pagan in its
    origins but is also steeped through and through with pagan traditions
    covered over with very thin Christian wrapping paper. Many Christians are
    uneasy about the crass commercialism and greed associated with a day which
    they hold to be holy. Unfortunately, few of them have any scruples about
    designating and celebrating as biblical and holy something that is profane
    in origin, substance, and practice. Tragically, most Christians are not
    getting sound biblical guidance from the pastors and elders who should be
    on the forefront of turning God’s people away from this pagan holiday
    instead of being at the front of the line at the check-out counter, laden
    down with Christmas gifts.
    But how should Christians deal with this
    day which is so tightly woven into the fabric of their lives? The fact
    that so few even see that as a question suggests a love of the world (1
    John 2:15) and a lack of spiritual maturity. I believe that the Bible
    gives us clear guidance with regard to the subject of this discussion, the
    celebration of Christmas as a day holy unto the Lord. It is one thing for
    individual families to establish traditions such as family reunions,
    birthday parties, vacations, and special days of fellowship. While
    Christians should seek to honor the Lord and obey him every second of
    every day, the events just mentioned are things which belong to the
    day-to-day warp and woof of life. They are not special days consecrated
    as holy unto the Lord by His Church. It is another thing altogether for
    the Church of Jesus Christ to sanctify a day as having special spiritual
    significance to be religiously observed as holy unto the Lord. To exercise
    such authority without biblical justification and direction is to indulge
    in "teaching for doctrines the commandments of men" (Matthew
    15:9, Mark 7:7). The Pharisees were good at doing that, as is the
    Roman Catholic Church. Those two examples alone should drive home the
    danger of falling into man-centered, religious traditions in the name of
    promoting true religion. Certainly, both groups mentioned perfected the
    finer points of annexing man-made traditions to God’s Word and then
    promoting those traditions as holy, necessary, and beneficial. Doubtless,
    we must be ever on-guard against doing the same thing ourselves, even in
    small things.
    Christmas is a man-made tradition, and no
    small one, which is seen as holy by most of God’s people. Further,
    Christmas was pagan from the start, thus Christians never should have
    yoked with unbelievers to commemorate, promulgate, and promote it (2
    Corinthians 6:14-18, Ephesians 5:11). It is a serious thing to designate a
    specific day as holy unto the Lord. It is more serious yet to take a pagan
    holiday and "Christianize" it by proclaiming it as a holy day to
    be honored as such by God’s people. If we are going to set aside, before
    the whole world, special days as holy unto the Lord, is it not obedient,
    reasonable, and right to only do so based on instruction from the Word of
    God rather than to docilely adopt a holy day designated as such by that
    unholy, counterfeit, Roman church? I believe that it is clear from God’s
    Word that Christians are to honor the Lord’s Day as a holy day of rest
    when His people assemble together for teaching, preaching, worship,
    prayer, and fellowship. In addition, there is certainly solid scriptural
    foundation and example for the observance of special days of thanksgiving
    as well as days of fasting and prayer. But there is absolutely no
    justification, instruction, or example in God’s Word for setting up an
    annual holy day as the day of Christ’s birth. It is a dangerous thing for
    man to unilaterally erect such a day and then declare it holy and in
    effect until the return of Christ! There is no hint in the Bible that the
    apostolic church did such a thing. There is no license for the present-day
    church to do so.
    We do not know when Christ was born, but we
    certainly know why the Romanists chose December 25 as His
    "birthday" given that their friends celebrate the solstice at
    the same time. The Christmas season itself is birthed and steeped in pagan
    history, symbols, and rituals. The name of the holiday is Roman Catholic
    and honors a blasphemous Catholic ritual. Is it not possible—and I
    think more than possible—that flippantly using the name of the Son of
    God in such a way is a violation of the third commandment? Certainly, we
    are not talking here of open cursing or blasphemy. But the command against
    the "vain" use of God’s name includes the light, disrespectful
    use of His name. We would perhaps do well to reconsider whether it is
    right to annex the name of our Lord to a word describing a pagan ritual
    which blasphemes Him in the most awful way and to then use the word to
    identify a day ostensibly set apart for His honor and glory! One would
    think that even if true Christians felt obligated and justified to
    commemorate the Son of Man’s birth on a special day, they would
    at least do it on a different day bearing a different name!
    But again, such considerations bring into
    sharp focus how tradition-bound, instead of Bible-bound, many Christians
    have become. What a sad situation it is when God’s people cannot find the
    strength to break free from something so beneficial to the devil’s cause!
    Christmas is one of the greatest things which ever happened to the Roman
    Church. It is the pope’s time to shine in his usurped office as supreme
    head of the universal "Christian" church. Christmas is a
    propaganda bonanza for the ecumenical movement, to say the least.
    Christian churches openly celebrating it unwittingly play the part of the
    Vatican II separated brethren and testify to the world that the Roman
    Catholic Church is the true Christian church. Just think for one moment
    what a testimony it would be, what a distinction it would draw, what a
    contrast it would provide if Christ’s true Church refused to celebrate
    the Roman whore’s holiday with her.
    But I hear shrill protests that Christmas
    is a great time to share the gospel with unbelievers. Dear brothers and
    sisters, now is the day of salvation (2 Corinthians 6:2). Every day
    is the day to share the gospel with the world, and it is never the right
    day to trust in craftiness rather than the Holy Ghost to save souls.
    Christmas is rather the most heart-hardening time of the year when
    multitudes of pagans become "Christians" for a day, and most go
    home feeling justified that they have honored their Creator by sitting in
    church for a brief time or suffering a Christian relative to say grace
    before the Christmas feast. 
    Let us remember, Christmas is not the
    Fourth of July or Veterans Day. Christians hold Christmas to be a day set
    apart and holy unto the Lord—which brings me to another point. I have
    spoken very briefly on the reality that there is no biblical foundation
    for a holy day called Christmas and that its foundation—root and branch—is
    pagan. I have touched on the benefit which Christmas provides for the
    devil’s false church and the dangerous presuppositions which Christians
    celebrating it plant in the minds of unbelievers. Now, for just a moment,
    I want to address Christian parents. You may have taken a
    "stand" on Christmas in your home. Santa has been exposed, the
    mistletoe is gone, and perhaps even the Christmas tree which would have
    graced your home has been pardoned. You have given a lofty speech to your
    children about how Christmas is the day Jesus was born; and as for you and
    your house, you will glorify and honor the Savior because that is
    what Christmas is really all about. Naturally, unless your pastor preaches
    otherwise, children will buy the story that pagans have paganized a
    Christian holiday even though the reality is the reverse. Indeed, if
    neither pastor nor parents will tell children the truth about Christmas,
    the little ones who are to be brought up "in the nurture and
    admonition of the Lord" (Ephesians 6:4) will be more than happy to
    believe that it is imperative that Christians keep Christ in Christ-mass
    and that pagans are trying to steal our high holy day which we reverently
    observe as befits a holy people on such a holy day.
    So as the big day approaches, your whole
    family really zeros in on the birth of Jesus and its significance—that
    is, when they are not thinking about frantic Christmas preparations,
    shopping, and what gifts they are going to receive. But of course, the
    gift giving and receiving is a way to show our love for Christ, as if that
    makes any sense! Surely it has nothing to do with personal gratification
    or pagan tradition, and surely it does nothing to take the children’s
    minds and hearts off of Jesus on the high holy day which celebrates His
    In reality, Christmas creates little
    hypocrites who are taught hollow, superficial, man-centered religion. They
    are trained to use holy things to achieve selfish ends. The children are
    taught that it is permissible, even desirable to pretend Christmas is an
    annual holy day, one of two holiest days of the year, to worship, praise,
    and focus on the Lord. They are told that it is a day set aside to
    reverently celebrate the birth of the Messiah. They are verbally
    instructed to dwell on this blessed, holy event. But practically speaking,
    children are taught to eagerly, greedily look forward to gifts being
    showered on them that holy day. They are discipled in a shallow,
    man-centered, syncretistic Christianity by grownups who boldly claim to
    set aside a holy day—yea, even a season—to honor the Lord Jesus
    Christ but, when all is said and done, spend the vast majority of that
    special time pleasuring themselves. Children are taught that it is right
    and good to join the world in setting aside a day as special and holy when
    the Bible does neither. They are taught to compartmentalize their faith
    and are discipled in the fine art of spiritual paper hanging. A
    structurally unsound house on a foundation of sand cannot be made sound by
    covering its walls with pretty wallpaper. An unbiblical, artificial holy
    day instituted by pagans steeped in pagan traditions cannot be made holy
    by singing some hymns and reciting some prayers amidst an orgy of
    feasting; fussing; dreaming; shopping; gift giving; socializing; and in
    all too many cases, football games. In reality, such worship of God
    interjected into the worldly, pagan holiday known as Christmas is akin to
    putting a golden calf alongside the altar of God. It is like dressing up a
    hog’s snout with a gold ring. The nature of the beast remains the same,
    even if one focuses on the beauty of the ring.
    It is dangerous to train children to
    indulge in the sort of spiritual sophistry in which Christian adults
    engage to justify Christmas. It is wrong to teach them to strike pious
    poses for a designated time on Christmas Eve or Christmas Day and pretend
    that they are focusing on Jesus when all the while their minds are given
    to thoughts of presents and partying. In addition to the harm this
    does to children, it cannot help but offend the Lord. "I am the LORD:
    that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another, neither my
    praise to graven images" (Isaiah 42:8). The Scriptures teach us that
    "God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in
    spirit and in truth" (John 4:24). Celebrating Christmas is hardly the
    way to teach children to worship God in spirit and in truth. It certainly
    is a good way to teach them to put man-made traditions and emotionally
    driven desires ahead of the Word of God.
    Christmas is a holiday for popes and
    pagans. Why do Christian churches treat that day as holy unto the Lord?
    Certainly in many cases, it is because the celebrants have not been taught
    well on the issue. But in the case of the fully informed, is it not
    possible that, when push comes to shove, Christians do not want to give up
    something which so pleasured their flesh as children and continues to do
    so now that they are adults? Never mind that we can give each other
    presents other times without the hollow, hypocritical pretense of doing so
    to honor the Lord Jesus Christ. Forget about the reality that we can plan
    warm family gatherings and special church events for other times for other
    reasons which do honor God and bless His people. Most Christians, even
    after hearing the truth about Christmas, refuse to let go of that day.
    Most cannot even conceive of making such a "sacrifice."
    The issue seems to boil down to this: most
    Christians love Christ-mass. They just cannot loose their grip on a
    tradition which they acquired as children and have nurtured as adults. I
    am talking about those Christians who have been told the truth but have
    turned away from it and back to the Christmas tradition handed down to
    them from their parents. I do not deny that this Christmas issue is not an
    easy one in every sense; and it has its nuances, no doubt. I do not
    question the sincerity in the hearts of all Christians who celebrate
    Christmas. This is not a question of sincerity but of seeking to honor the
    Lord in all things and live by every word which proceeds from Him (Matthew
    4:4). I do not expect our elderly parents in their last days to
    necessarily see the light on this issue; and I, for one, am not going to
    make it my goal to pound on them until they do! But I do believe that it
    is incumbent upon us, the next two generations of adults, to turn this
    situation around, for the glory of God and the good of His people. To know
    the good we ought to do in this situation and not do it is simply sin
    (James 4:17).
    So what is a Christian to do about
    "Christmas"? Surely Christ’s churches should—and easily could—stop observing Christmas as a body. I believe that most important step
    should not be difficult and should be immediate. Certainly those Christian
    families who are convicted that Christmas does not honor Christ or advance
    His cause should cease to celebrate that day in their own homes. Those two
    steps are relatively easy and painless; but of course, there are difficult
    family situations which exist outside the home during the Christmas
    season. The aged parents of whom I previously spoke is one example. I am
    not saying that we should abandon them, crush their spirits, confuse their
    minds, or break their hearts at this time of year. Depending on the nature
    of the gathering and what takes place, I personally would not speak
    against grown children for going to see their parents on
    "Christmas" when invited. Likewise, I would not counsel any
    Christian who has had a change of mind concerning that day to suddenly turn
    his back on an elderly parent, leaving him or her bewildered and
    alone on a day which had always been such a special family time.
    I also do not believe this question of
    Christmas is one which should provoke bitterness and division among God’s
    people any more than it should stir up contempt or pride. We surely should
    not use it as the measure of a brother’s righteousness or commitment to
    Christ. The celebration of Christmas by a Christian is not equivalent to
    attending a Catholic mass or committing those sins that the law of God
    written on the heart condemns and the Word of God specifically prohibits.
    A sincere Christian striving to honor Christ on Christmas, not
    understanding the things previously written of here, is not a criminal to
    be shunned but rather a brother to be gently, patiently enlightened. The
    Christmas season should not be seen as a time to mock those sincere
    Christians who are clinging to that holiday anymore than it is the time to
    try to convince unbelievers regarding matters not yet seen by many
    But brethren, is it not time to break from
    the pagan tradition of Christmas handed down from our ancestors, even
    though it is a pleasant tradition? Is it not time that a generation be
    raised up unpolluted by that tradition and more than "content to let
    the world go by" in that regard? If Christian parents will do what is
    right now, even those difficult family situations which I mentioned
    earlier will someday be a thing of the past with the passing of that
    oldest of the generations among us. Quite frankly, I believe that it
    is important for parents to deal with this issue now because, for all the
    reasons I previously listed, the greatest spiritual damage done
    to individuals by Christmas is done to children.
    I would encourage those brothers
    and sisters who are still clinging to Christmas to consider
    what Paul wrote to the Thessalonians: "Furthermore then we beseech
    you, brethren, and exhort you by the Lord Jesus, that as ye have received
    of us how ye ought to walk and to please God, so ye would abound more and
    more" (1 Thessalonians 4:1). Please reconsider this important issue
    of Christmas. Then ask yourself, Does it please the Lord that His Church
    joins with the world and the false church in celebrating "the
    mass of Christ" as holy unto Him?
    "I hold it to be one of the greatest
    absurdities under heaven to think that there is any religion in keeping
    Christmas day . . . the observance of it is purely of Popish origin."
    Charles Haddon Spurgeon
    "The celebration of Christmas has
    sometimes been opposed as pagan by religious leaders. New England Puritans
    considered Christmas ‘popish’ idolatry, and the Massachusetts General
    Court in 1659 passed an act against its celebration, though the law was
    repealed in 1681." "Christmas," Dictionary of
    Christianity in America
    , 1990
    ". . . The suppression of the Mass
    during the Reformation led to a sharp change in the observance of
    Christmas in some countries. In England, the Puritans condemned the
    celebration and, from 1642 to 1652, issued a series of ordinances
    forbidding all church services and festivities. This feeling was carried
    over to America by the Pilgrims and it was not until the
    nineteenth-century wave of Irish and German immigration that enthusiasm
    for the feast began to spread throughout the country." "Christmas,"
    Collier’s Encyclopedia, Vol. 6, 1992
    to top.

  87. Paul (Continue in His Word) says:

    Sequel of above post

    Jer 10:2 Thus saith the LORD, Learn not the way of the heathen, and be not dismayed at the signs of heaven; for the heathen are dismayed at them.
    Jer 10:3a For the customs of the people are vain

    Col 2:8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.

    Now consider this about the origins of Christmas which is clearly the way of the heathen:

    Christmas originally referred to Christ’s mass, which obviously has a Roman Catholic origin. Catholics observe it on December 25, while many of the Eastern Orthodox observe it in January. The practice was popularized by the Catholic Church, and like many other Catholic traditions, it was adopted from paganism; in this case, from the pagan mid-winter solstice marking the turn of the year. The following is a brief overview of its origin:

    “Saturnalia extended from December 17 to 24 and in A.D. 274 the emperor Aurelian made December 25 a feast of the invincible sun. January 6 was sacred to Dionysus. With the toleration of Christianity under Constantine, both December 25 and January 6 became Christianized feasts (Christmas and Epiphany, respectively). Symbols, originating largely from classical or Teutonic-Celtic paganism, such as lights, greenery, and special foods, gradually became associated with Christmas, as did St. Nicholas, whose feast on December 6 had been a time for giving gifts, especially to children” (New 20th-Century Encyclopedia of Religious Knowledge, pp. 181,182).

    The Encyclopedia Britannica adds:

    “In the Roman world the Saturnalia (December 17) was a time of merrymaking and exchange of gifts. December 25 was also regarded as the birth date of the Iranian mystery god Mithra, the Sun of Righteousness. On the Roman New Year (January 1), houses were decorated with greenery and lights, and gifts were given to children and the poor. To these observances were added the German and Celtic Yule rites when the Teutonic tribes penetrated into Gaul, Britain, and central Europe. Food and good fellowship, the Yule log and Yule cakes, greenery and fir trees, and gifts and greetings all commemorated different aspects of this festive season. Fires and lights, symbols of warmth and lasting life, have always been associated with the winter festival, both pagan and Christian. Since the European Middle Ages, evergreens, as symbols of survival, have been associated with Christmas. Christmas is traditionally regarded as the festival of the family and of children, under the name of whose patron, Saint Nicholas (q.v.), or Santa Claus, presents are exchanged in many countries.”

    All of these things can still be observed in some pagan religions. For instance, in Hinduism, there is a festival of lights in early winter that features bright lights, special foods, the giving of gifts, and the alleged visitation of the goddess Laxmi who bestows blessings on those who are good, etc.

    God’s people are plainly warned to beware of philosophy, the tradition of men, and the rudiments of the world which are not after Christ (Col. 2:8).

    Quoted from
    Unfortunately, David Cloud who writes this nevertheless celebrate Christmas, and the whole article is actually him defending his celebrating and condoning it. Very pathetic.

    Born again Christian: Do not have anything whatsoever to do this evil.

  88. Redeemed says:

    Paul, I have addressed this question over and over again over my lifetime which is longer than I care to admit. LOL I am fully aware of all the information you have presented. This is not something to cause division. If one is convicted not to celebrate the holiday, don’t. If one can celebrate it in good conscience, then those who don’t should not judge.

    I have Christian friends who don’t celebrate it and those who do. Those who do not celebrate it with the exception of one do not condemn me for doing so and I respect their choice and our fellowship is not in any way disturbed. Those who do celebrate it absolutely reject the commercial aspect and reject Roman Catholicism but use the season as an opportunity to shine the light on the true Christ, His birth and why He came.

    Those who celebrate it choose to use the opportunity to reach the lost with the Gospel as it is a time when people will engage in conversation about Christ and they are open when at other times they are not receptive. I am not a pragmatic person or one that rationalizes or tries to “Christianize” paganism.

    When I send greetings, I am careful to give glory to Christ in any way possible. I believe that God is honored and if not He would convict me. I try to stay very sensitive to the Holy Spirit although I certainly am a work in progress. I do want to please my Lord and Savior.

    Not everyone who does not celebrate Christmas does so with the right motives. The exception I note above is a person who is involved in the Jewish Roots Movement and instead celebrates Hannakuh. This person is very judgmental and comes unglued if someone happens to send her a Christmas greeting by mistake or in innocence.

    I am aware that Brother Rice’s family turned ecumenical. But to lay this at his doorstep is unfair. Maybe he spent too much time away from the family in his ministry – I don’t know the circumstances. Maybe his daughters made poor choices in mates. Do you have children? I do and as much as we trained them up they are not where we would like to see them spiritually. And will you charge that to celebrating Christmas? Hopefully not.

    And for you to condemn Brother Cloud for celebrating Christmas is harsh judgment. I don’t agree with him on everything, but he is a man of God and takes a strong stand for sound doctrine. So did Rice if you have read any of his works.

    The Bible tells us to be in the world but not of it. Each person has to determine what that means in their relationship with Christ. I feel I can reach more people by celebrating a national holiday as long as I don’t dishonor Christ. We are to be lights in a dark world and reach the lost. Many of them would never darken the door of a church except on Christmas Eve – so invite them to a church where the true Gospel will be presented and their hearts can be touched. I am not trying to justify my position and change your mind. I am just trying to help you be more tolerant of others who see it differently and love the Lord and seek to obey Him just as much as you do. Okay?

  89. Paul (Continue in His Word) says:

    Sequel of the above post.
    This is what Ironside wrote about Christ-Mass in his commentary on Revelation:

    In the present time of our Lord’s rejection and His session at God’s right hand, Christendom, in the very manner here depicted(Rev 11:9-10), PRETENDS to observe Christ’s coming to earth. Having crucified the Lord of glory, THE NATIONS JOIN IN CELEBRATING WHAT IS CALLED “HIS BIRTHDAY”, sending gifts one to another. In that coming day, in the same way, they will make merry and manifest their delight because the last voice on His behalf has been silenced, and they will rejoice over the dead bodies of His witnesses.

    And also


    I must say that I disagree with Ironside when he added

    I quite admit that some of these festivals, if divested of any ecclesiastical character, may be observed in innocence in the home.

    He did not need to say that. It is compromise, and it ultimately leads to capitulation to error.
    The is no “innocence” in endorsing and promoting Rome. There is no “innocence” in “learning the way of the heathen”. When you do that, you send the message to the world that Rome and you are celebrating/worshiping the same “Christ”, which is not true. You send the message to the world that Roman Catholicism is Christianity.

    These ECUMENICAL “holy days and church feasts” are setting the stage and preparing the world for the worldwide worship of the Beast in fulfillment of Rev 13:4-8
    (4) AND THEY WORSHIPPED THE DRAGON WHICH GAVE POWER UNTO THE BEAST: AND THEY WORSHIPPED THE BEAST, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?
    (5) And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.
    (6) And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.
    (7) And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.
    (8) AND ALL THAT DWELL UPON THE EARTH SHALL WORSHIP HIM, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

  90. Paul (Continue in His Word) says:

    At this time of the year, may I suggest that you put up an article “against” celebrating Christmas (like Ralph Ovadal’s piece and contrast it WITH another article “for” celebrating it (like John Rice piece
    You could then move the comments related to christmas from this thread to the new one and leave it open for discussion.
    If you do not feel like doing it you can delete this comment and just let the discussion continue here.

  91. Paul

    I don’t have time right now… and just a question, why is this conversation under the London Olympics Games article? It should be under General conversation? Can I move it there? 🙂

  92. Redeemed says:

    Puleeeeeeeeeze Paul, I do NOT worship Rome. I am absolutely OPPOSED to all false religions and preach against them. Because I celebrate Christmas I am not showing any allegience to Rome. I don’t know of any believer who observes Christmas who has any allegiance or complicity to Rome.

    We have to pick our battles and on which hill to die. There are plenty of other battles which are much more uppermost in my mind and heart. Whether or not I celebrate Christmas does not save any soul. But when I take a stand against the false teaching of Rome and give the uncompromised Gospel, it DOES.

  93. Redeemed says:

    Paul, the days of the week have pagan origins:
    Monday: “day of the moon,” referring to moon worship.
    Tuesday: “Tiu’s day,” named for the Germanic god of war.
    Wednesday: “Woden’s day,” after Woden, the chief Anglo-Saxon god.
    Thursday: “Thors day,” after the Norse god of thunder.
    Friday: “Freya’s day,” after the Teutonic goddess of love, beauty and fertility.
    Saturday: “Saturn’s day,” after Saturn, a god in mythology.
    Is it wrong for Christians to use calendars?

    The dollar bill of the U.S. has Masonic/Babylonian insignia. Is it wrong for Christians to use this currency? Can’t money be used to honor God?

  94. Paul (Continue in His Word) says:

    This conversation about Christmas started when you posted (59) about the video of kids singing GOOD CHRISTIAN MEN REJOICE in relation to the baby you likened to the Anti-Christ. I then reacted (62) with my dismay why born again Christians would ever follow and endorse Rome with celebrating it. Then Redeemed reacted to my anguish with (71) and inviting me to read what John Rice wrote about Christmas. At that time I responded, but you took a leave from the internet, and my answer was never posted (I suppose I got lost). But I had not forgotten and I really wanted to reply to Redeemed.

    Please go ahead and move the conversation under the General Conversation.

  95. Paul (Continue in His Word) says:

    Thanks for the advice. It is what I am trying to do. The article I posted suggests this

    I also do not believe this question of Christmas is one which should provoke bitterness and division among God’s people any more than it should stir up contempt or pride. We surely should not use it as the measure of a brother’s righteousness or commitment to Christ. The celebration of Christmas by a Christian is not equivalent to attending a Catholic mass or committing those sins that the law of God
    written on the heart condemns and the Word of God specifically prohibits. A SINCERE CHRISTIAN STRIVING TO HONOR CHRIST ON CHRISTMAS, NOT UNDERSTANDING THE THINGS PREVIOUSLY WRITTEN OF HERE, IS NOT A CRIMINAL TO BE SHUNNED BUT RATHER A BROTHER TO BE GENTLY, PATIENTLY ENLIGHTENED. The Christmas season should NOT be seen as a time to mock those sincere Christians who are clinging to that holiday anymore than it is the time to try to convince unbelievers regarding matters not yet seen by many believers.

    That is what I am trying to do. To educate my brothers and sisters about the damage Christmas does to the cause of the Gospel by endorsing the grossest misrepresentation of Christianity ever, about the SNARE of Christmas (the so called “appropriate time to share the gospel” when the world is more “opened” to it). It is a great snare because is serves the cause of the devil so much.
    My observation is that most christians are NOT educated about it by christian leaders (pastors) who watch more on their bottom line than on the uncompromising truth of the word of God. They are afraid of loosing people, of touching long cherished traditions, of offending people. So they compromise and let the people believe they are “celebrating the birth of Christ”, that after all it is about Christ, which is far from the truth. The truth is that the “Christ” celebrated on Christmas is NOT the Christ of the Bible. It is another Christ. It is actually many other Christs as the origins of it reveal.
    I have to strike the right balance between sharing the truth without appearing intolerant or judgmental. You and Debs must know how hard it is, because oftentimes the truth hurts.

    About brother Cloud, I love him and appreciate so much the work he is doing. The Lord has used his ministry a lot to help me and my family, and we are members of one of his supporting churches. But I must say he is KNOWINGLY compromising on the issue of Christmas. I don’t judge him. I judge his action of compromise and I dare say “hypocrisy” when it comes to the issue of Christmas.
    I echo what two of his subscribers wrote to him :

    “I am surprised Mr. Cloud, you strain gnats and filter out the many rotten poisons tied to CCM, and swallow camels tied to the pagan celebration of christmas. How can you do such a thing? Do you really not know what you are doing here?”

    “I read of your complete hatred of the evils of Roman Catholicism — but you’re surprisingly ‘silent’ when in comes to the real ‘demon‘ in the room–CHRISTMAS. How you can rant against the ‘Charismatics’–but not so much a whimper against the abomination of the filthy dreamers who continue to push this ‘garbage’ of Jesus’ birthday on Dec. 25–as being ‘truth’

    I believe he too is preoccupied about the amount of support he will loose among his supporters if he dares say the plain uncompromising truth about it.
    Mammon is unfortunately THE other god at the altar of which so many in our generation have chosen to sacrifice the truth. “Ye cannot serve God and Mammon” Luke 16:13.

    Another critical area where he compromises is the teaching about tithing and the New Testament believer.
    And that concerns me, because “A little leaven leaveneth the whole lump”

  96. Redeemed says:

    Hi Paul,

    I appreciate your contributions here and I do not wish to contend on this issue. I reiterate what I said in # 94. Grace and peace to you.

  97. Paul (Continue in His Word) says:

    I agree we should not contend on this issue. But before we move on to something else, I would like to address a few things you said in #93:
    >>I do NOT worship Rome.
    >>Because I celebrate Christmas I am not showing any allegiance to >>Rome. I don’t know of any believer who observes Christmas who has >>any allegiance or complicity to Rome.

    Please I have never insinuated nor implied that you (or any born again christian) who celebrates Christmas “worships Rome” or is showing any “allegiance to Rome” whatsoever.
    What I have repeatedly said is that such a person is (1) following/endorsing/promoting Rome IN CELEBRATING IT, and (2) SENDING the (wrong) message to the billion Roman Catholics and the other billions of unsaved people that Rome and they worship/celebrate the same Christ. You have not addressed those two points. Please re-read my comments, and the article I posted as a comment. And please forgive me if I came across as insinuating that you “worship Rome” or show “allegiance to Rome”. Far it be from me my dear sister.

    As you said, let us pick our battles. I think we have said enough, and a believer who is uneducated about Christmas who reads our conversation will learn a little bit more and have a better discernment about Christmas. So this conversation was not useless.
    As for your comment #94, I will not say anything about it because the days of the week (or months of the year) or the currencies of our countries ARE NOT the same thing as Christmas. I would not go there.
    Grace and peace to you too.

  98. Paul (Continue in His Word) says:

    I want to briefly address something you said in #89. it is no more about the event the whole world is celebrating this month (I don’t want even to name it because we have agreed not to go there anymore)
    But it is about brother John Rice and the priorities of parents. If time permit, we could have a full conversation on the topic:

    I am aware that Brother Rice’s family turned ecumenical. But to lay this at his doorstep is unfair. Maybe he spent too much time away from the family in his ministry – I don’t know the circumstances. Maybe his daughters made poor choices in mates. Do you have children? I do and as much as we trained them up they are not where we would like to see them spiritually.

    First of all, I will correct my comment to say “the seeds were sown by their PARENTS compromise” instead of “by their FATHER’S compromise”

    Now you say “maybe he spent too much time away from the family in his ministry”
    If true, it would be a VERY SAD thing indeed. It ought not to be so.
    I will be brief:
    Man’s first priority is Mark 12:30
    (Man’s “neighbor” is first of all his wife/husband, then their children, and only then the rest of the world)
    Man’s second priority is Ephesians 5:25-29
    Man’s third priority is their children.
    Man’s fourth priority is his neighbor (i.e. carrying out the Great Commission to the whole world) Mark 12:31 and Matt 28:19-20
    See following references, starting with our “father” Abraham:

    Gen 18:19 For I know him, that he will command his children and his household after him, and they shall keep the way of the LORD, to do justice and judgment; that the LORD may bring upon Abraham that which he hath spoken of him.

    Pro_22:6 Train up a child in the way he should go: and when he is old, he will not depart from it.

    1Ti 3:2 A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach;
    1Ti 3:3 Not given to wine, no striker, not greedy of filthy lucre; but patient, not a brawler, not covetous;
    1Ti 3:4 One that ruleth well his own house, having his children in subjection with all gravity;
    1Ti 3:5 (For if a man know not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God?)

    Eph_6:4 And, ye fathers, provoke not your children to wrath: but bring them up in the nurture and admonition of the Lord.

    Jos_24:15 And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.

    Jesus said “For what shall it profit a man, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul?” Mar 8:36
    It could well be added as a corollary to this verse
    “For what shall it profit a preacher, if he shall gain the whole world for Christ, and lose his own children/wife?”

    Could we say that if parents (or a man) fail to win their children to Christ, they have failed (to some extent) before God, whatever their “apparent” success may be before men?

    I could expound on those verses for pages upon pages, but I lack time now. But I believe the message from those passages is clear.

    Now, I am a father of 5 very young children, and I ask you to pray for me that my priorities will be right. That I will win these children to the Lord and make them disciples of Jesus Christ.

  99. Redeemed says:

    Re: # 98

    Paul what you ARE saying is the I am promoting Rome and sending a wrong message. Six of one and 1/2 a dozen of the other it seems to me.

    I am not promoting Rome and in fact go AGAINST Rome by using Christmas as an OPPORTUNITY to EXPOSE Rome as a FALSE Gospel and instead give the uncompromised Gospel. I don’t think this is sending a wrong message to ANYONE! The Roman Catholics I know don’t consider Christiam “their” holiday and probably are not even aware of the origins. But they, like 99% of other people in society observe it in some way. It brings up the topic of Christ and one has the opportunity to share the TRUE Gospel.

    I consider that honoring to the Lord and I have no conviction whatsoever about observing it.

    As for you not addressing the pagan origins of other things in society that we readily accept I am sorry to say as charitably as possible, that is a cop out. It is a legitimate question.

    I felt I just had to reply to your post. I find that many people (not all) are eager to debate the issue. I think we have had a reasonable discussion, but we are never going to agree. So let’s leave it at that. You are a brother in Christ and I respect your conviction.

  100. Redeemed says:

    Now regarding John R. Rice. He was a traveling preacher and like many others in those times it required theme to be away from home for periods of time. This was not because they put their calling over their family, but it was circumstances of the times.

    I am sure Brother Rice would be the first to say he was not perfect. Brother Rice wrote a book on Family Life and his wife and daughters wrote a testimony of how he practiced what he preached.

    Now I am not going to sit in judgment of Bro. Rice – he was a man of conviction, a soul-winner, a champion against Calvinism, ecumenism, and compromise of ANY kind. His life and works speak for themselves.

    If he thought for a nanosecond that obsrving Christmas in a Christ-honoring way was wrong, I do believe that God would have pricked his conscience.

    He condemns the pagan roots of the holiday and yet he found some redeeming value in observing it. I find that far better than taking a dogmatic and hard-line approach which can shut the door for opportunities to witness for Christ.

    I stand by Dr. Rice – of course he had his faults, but I think he surely will hear the Lord say “Well done, good and faithful servant”. He definitely dedicated his life to the work of the Lord.

    I think that one of the reasons he liked the Christmas season was because he was free to spend it with his family. I look forward to meeting this faithful servant in heaven. He and Dr. Ironside although somewhat different were cut from the same cloth in terms of their dedication to serving the Lord.

  101. Paul (Continue in His Word) says:

    Dear sister,
    I have the greatest respect for Dr Rice and for all he did for the Lord. I’m am unworthy to even “unloose his shoe latches”. If only I could do a tiny fraction of what he did for the Lord!
    The point of my post is that we should learn from the mistakes and “faults” of our predecessors so as not to repeat them. But men seem not to learn from history.
    I am certain had brother Rice had the opportunity to see into the future a see how ALL his daughters are deceived and lost today, HE WOULD HAVE GIVEN UP ALL the traveling and ministering to win them to Christ and make them disciples of Christ and servants of the true Gospel. (Instead today they are deceived and deceiving others and serving the enemy of the one their father so faithfully loved and served) Of course we pray that his daughters will eventually come to Christ and be saved so as to meet their father in heaven, but what I mean is that if they die in their present condition, it is very likely they are unsaved.

    This is THE mistake I am talking about:

    It required theme to be away from home for periods of time. This was not because they put their calling over their family, but it was circumstances of the times.

    I think that one of the reasons he liked the Christmas season was because he was free to spend it with his family

    See all the verses I quoted above. I will just repeat on, and add another Scripture:

    Joshua 24:15 But as for me AND MY HOUSE, WE will SERVE the LORD
    Deut 6:6 And these words, which I command thee this day, shall be in thine heart:
    Deut 6:7 And thou shalt teach them diligently unto thy children, and shalt talk of them when thou sittest in thine house, AND WHEN THOU WALKEST BY THE WAY, and when thou liest down, and when thou risest up.

    According to the Bible, a servant of God ought to serve the Lord WITH his family (wife and children). THIS IS KEY. That was God’s plan since the garden of Eden.
    You are a very mature christian, and I don’t need to say a thousand words for you to get my point.
    It is not and it has never been God’s pattern that a servant of His gets away from his family for extended periods of time for the sake of ministry. Never. Never. That should be the EXCEPTION, and eventually very occasional. You server the Lord WITH your family. You take your family with you, or you don’t go. If your family cannot come with you, if you cannot take your family with you, I dare say: God is not sending you. (This may sound extreme, but it is the plain truth. Deut 6:7 AND WHEN THOU WALKEST BY THE WAY)
    If not, be like Paul and Barnabas.

    Unfortunately, how many servants of God today are still committing the same mistake?
    Now, I am far from living what I am writing here. I know it is the truth and I keep reminding myself of it, and I strive towards that.
    God help me. God help us.

  102. Paul (Continue in His Word) says:

    As for the issue of Christmas, you write:

    I find that many people (not all) are eager to debate the issue.

    After Debs moves this conversation somewhere else (General Conversation), and with her permission, I wish to continue debating this issue with those interested and addressing some of your points.
    You may be

    “using Christmas as an OPPORTUNITY to EXPOSE Rome as a FALSE Gospel and instead give the uncompromised Gospel.”

    But MOST born again Christians don’t have the maturity nor the discernment you have, and will fall into the snare of Rome and do the contrary of what you say, i.e. UNWITTINGLY follow/endorse/promote Rome in observing it, and SEND that wrong message to the Catholics and to the world. Make no mistake, I use every opportunity to share the uncompromising gospel in this season and in every other season without celebrating Christmas.
    Notice that I haven’t written of YOU (Redeemed) celebrating Christmas. I’ve repeatedly said SOMEONE, or A PERSON…
    Our wall of separation with the world (Rome is the world) must be completely “waterproof”. If you give Satan (the world) an inch of your property, ultimately he will invade and possess all of it.

    Think of the weak and feeble born again, blood bought believer…

  103. Redeemed says:

    Paul, I cannot stop the observance of the national holiday of Christmas. But I DO my best to set an example by doing my best to honor Christ by refusing the secular trappings and commercialism connected by a lost society. Also the false and fake “gospels” that abound. I feel I can better serve the Lord this way than by fully rejecting and abstaining from observing the holiday.

    That is my choice based upon seeking the Lord.

    Now regarding Bro. Rice’s situation. You seemed to totally disregard the book that he wrote and the testimonies of his wife and daughters that he practiced what he preached. Why they fell prey to ecumenical forces later in their lives I don’t think we can blame on him or his wife. Your children have not grown as yet and you have no way of knowing what path they will choose regardless of how diligent you are to teach them. I have grown children and I know how this works. I have seen them profess Christ as children and then grow spirtually cold in adulthood and through prayer we see them changing.

    I don’t think we can say that Bro. Rice neglected his family. As I said, he lived before the days of jet travel that cuts down on commute time. It is very difficult to balance time when one is in the ministry.

    Quite frankly, I believe there are MUCH more important issues of concern in the Body of Christ. I don’t think it is a bad witness to celebrate Christmas as we do and in fact does far more good than abstaining and burning bridges with those who might be open to hearing about the Lord. We can come across as self-righteous Pharisees in such situations and cause people to view us as oddballs. I know you are going to say that Christians are usually viewed as oddballs and aliens. I understand that. But the world could lump us together with the Jehovah Witnesses cult that does not celebrate holidays.

    Again I say, the Bible says that we are to be in the world and not of the world. Each person has to determine what that means in their own spiritual walk.

    I have dear friends who have opted out of celebrating Christmas and I fullyl respect that. And they respect my views on it. We have discussed it and come to different conclusions but we don’t judge one another as one view being more godly than the other. It is not a issue of divison. I say let’s dwell on false doctrine and those areas that affect salvation. I have another friend who is so dogmatic that she comes unglued if anyone wishes her a “Merry christmas”. She has to bristle up and declare that she doesn’t believe in Christmas and ysdayadayada. That does more harm than good.

    So I hope you won’t continue to force this issue as it will do nothing more than detract from the basics of the faith. Grace and peace to you!

  104. Redeemed says:

    Paul, one last point. What of a situation where the husband wishes to celebrate Christmas in a godly way as I have described but the wife is adamantly opposed and wishes to abstain? To maintain peace in the home she submits and follows her husband’s wishes. Is it worth drawing battle lines in the home over this?
    I say not. This is not a cut and dried issue.

  105. Marion says:

    @ Redeemed…your mention of the days of the week, the months, the money, Satanic symbols scattered throughout the world merely verifies the reality that we are “in the world,” living in a place where Satan is the “prince of this world.” These are things of which we have no control, but use in our daily lives. Jesus prayed, “I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world. I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil. Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.” (John 17:14-17)

    @Paul…I think that your choice of words is an issue in the above debate. Rather than using the phrase “unwittingly follow/endorse/promote Rome…” perhaps it would be best to use the phrase “fellowshipping” with the “unfruitful works of darkness” promoted by Rome and the subtilty of Satan and his schemes.

    I am copy and pasting my letter to a dear one in Christ addressing these same issues. Please realize they are in response to an ongoing discussion. Sooo, if you don’t get the context, no worries…I still believe there is value to be found (maybe?). The articles mentioned in the letter are these and (use of either article is not an endorsement of any person, group, “ministry” or philosophy – informational only)
    Dear (anyone)
    It is hard to determine the “tone” or “heart” of a written piece sometimes. Please know, that any questions asked (and some of them are hard questions – which I have also had to answer myself) are merely that…questions…not accusations, judgments, condemnations or offense. Every year, as a Christian, I have pondered the “christ-mass” season. But last year, God called me to be more separate…culminating with a total break from the traditions of men and the myth of all things “Christ-related” to this season; after all…it is of “another Jesus.” So the questions and comments are just some of what has transpired in my heart and I wanted to share them with you. My desire is to do ONLY those things that would please the Father and bring Him glory, and perhaps even to edify a brother(?); even as I believe you are of the same desire.

    I don’t have a problem remembering the birth of Christ and being thankful for His coming either…everyday…even on “Christ-mass”…but NOT celebrating it as his “birthday.” I actually think that Jesus was born at the time of the “feast of tabernacles” (perhaps) since His name Immanuel would represent such. But truly, the Bible does not indicate the time of his birth, nor that we should “be in remembrance” of it…or celebrate it.

    It is, however, an un”holy” day in the Satanic world, whose origins pre-date Babylon, and aren’t we called to come out and “be ye separate?”

    My concern wasn’t about Thanksgiving. Fact being, even though the Indians were pagans, and they brought the food…it was the Pilgrims who instituted that day of thanks…they were not joining in and celebrating a pagan celebration.

    As far as the “Christian” forefathers…only God knows…(I don’t agree with his thinking there, nor with everything written in any article – my focus was on the celebration of “Christ-mass” only, and the Scriptures – minus all the window dressing added by any author other than Scripture used to support their viewpoint).

    Birthday gifts…not why I sent the articles…FYI – I don’t agree with him on that either.

    Your point about “pick and choose history sometimes as long as it favors you”…I totally agree…that is why my focus was on the “holiday” and the Scriptures and the reality that a pagan un”holy” day has been “Christianized,” or can we say that “christianity” was “paganized?”

    You mention the author is Protestant “so he’s a lot closer to Rome than he thinks he is by his doctrine.” This is true, certainly…BUT…does that negate his observations and questions…which even he was able to see? He may not be aware and recognize that, but his message, I believe ought to be considered and pondered before the Lord in prayer.

    How exactly does one “keep our motives in check during this season?” Jesus said, “But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him. God is Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.” (John 4:23-24). As I think about the “what” I do and the “why” I do them, I have found that there is nothing of spirit or of truth in this whole season. I do not believe we can “redeem” the pagan holidays…just as our church does not “redeem” Halloween with “God-focused” thankful, “harvest festivals.” But we celebrate the false “Christ” holiday…isn’t this applying a double-standard? I don’t believe the only problems are the “selfishness and greed”…but something very sinister…how can we “attach” Jesus to this day? Satan’s desire is to be worshiped as God (Isaiah 14:12-15)…has he not pulled this off at “Christ-mass” almost ALL around the world and amongst almost ALL people? Ought we not rather ask…
    “for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness? And what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel? And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people. Wherefore, come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you, And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty. Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.” (23 Cor. 6:14-7:1) Are we not commanded to “have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them. (Eph. 5:11)?

    I actually have been asking the Lord, “what does that mean for my life in relation to You;” coming out, being separate, touching not the unclean thing, cleansing myself from all filthiness of the flesh and of the spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God…and He is so faithful to answer!

    “Thus saith the LORD, Learn not the way of the heathen, and be not dismayed at the signs of heaven; for the heathen are dismayed at them. For the customs of the people are vain;: for one cutteth a tree out of the forest, the work of the hands of the workman, with the axe. They deck it with silver and with gold; they fasten it with nails and with hammers, that it move not….(Jer. 10:3,4) We may not “worship” the trees, but does this not speak of our “christ-mass” customs…which have been…learned and adopted from the pagans? And can you imagine…churches…actually bringing in the trees with all the “trappings”…and the “idols” in?

    “He said also unto me, Turn thee yet again, and thou shalt see greater abominations than they do. Then he brought me to the floor of the gate of the LORD’S house which was towards the north; and behold, there sat women weeping for Tammuz. Then said he unto me, Hast thou seen this, O son of man? turn thee yet again, and thou shalt see greater abominations that these. And he brought me into the inner court of the LORD’S house, and behold, at the door of the temple of the LORD , between the porch and the altar, were about five and twenty men, with their backs toward the temple of the LORD, and their faces towards the east; and they worshipped the sun towards the east.” (Ezekiel 8:13-16)

    If the Lord was very much not pleased and in fact infuriated about a people called by His name “weeping for” and “worshipping” Tammuz…what does He think about a people called by His name “worshipping” Tammuz disguised as Jesus – putting His holy name to a demon? I think He is quite grieved…but as we learn the truth…we are without excuse. Since we agree that the Bible is our guide for “faith and practice”…where does this practice come from?…Can it be justified? It is not biblical. Jesus commanded us to remember His death til His coming. The celebration of His birth is silent, as is the teaching and traditions of the apostles. In “Christianity” (Catholicism) it is true, that the first of such “Christian” celebration was instituted centuries after Christ by “christianizing” the pagan ritual worship of the “sun god,” by Rome. (I thought WE were separate from Rome; yet we fellowship with Rome?). Is this practice holy? Can it be consecrated unto God? What would the apostles think of such a thing…Paul or John who exhorted, “Little children, keep yourselves from idols.” (1 Jn. 5:21)

    The priests of God…worshipping Tammuz (Baal, Bel…whatever you want to call him)…in the temple! And yet, who are we? “But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, peculiar people, that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light: Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy. Dearly beloved, I beseech you as strangers and pilgrims, abstain from fleshly lusts which war against the soul;” (1 Peter 2:9-11)

    “Even so we, when we were children, were in bondage under the elements of the world: But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law, To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons. And because ya are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father. Wherefore thou art no more a servant, but a son; and if a son, then an heir of God through Christ. Howbeit then, when ye knew not God, ye did service unto them which by nature are no gods. But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage? Ye observe days, and months, and times, and years. I am afraid of you, lest I have bestowed upon you labour in vain. (Gal. 4:3-11) Has this “royal priesthood” unwittingly fallen for the subtilty and cunning deceit of the enemy of our souls?

  106. Redeemed says:

    I would like to finish this discussion with something that John R. Rice write just days before his death. Oh that we had men of his stature today.

    Dr. Rice bared his soul winner’s heart in this moving message — a CHRISTMAS letter dictated to his friends a few days before his death — when he wrote: “I still, from my armchair, preach in great revival campaigns. I still vision hundreds walking the aisles to accept Christ. I still feel hot tears for the lost. I still see God working miracles. Oh, how I long to see great revivals, to hear about revival crowds once again! I WANT NO CHRISTMAS WITHOUT A BURDEN FOR LOST SOULS, A MESSAGE FOR SINNERS, WITHOUT A BURDEN FOR LOST SOULS, A HEART TO BRING IN THE LOST SHEEP SO DEAR TO THE SHEPHERD, THE SINNING SOULS FOR WHOM CHRIST DIED. tMAY FOOD BE TASTELESS, AND MUSIC A DISCORD, AND CHRISTMAS A FARCE IF I FORGET THE DYING MILLIONS TO WHOM I AM DEBTOR a farce IF THIS FIRE IN MY BONES DOES NOT STILL FLAME! Not till I die or not till Jesus comes, will I ever be eased of this burden, these tears, this toil to save souls.” Yes — that is the beat of a soul winner’s heart!

    That was not just Christmas season sentimentality. It was the overflow of a bleeding, broken heart for the lost which had been constrained and conquered by this terrible truth: “If there is a place of eternal torment where damned souls cry in vain for water amid the flames they cannot escape forever, it is the most alarming and terrifying fact in the universe! The very possibility that such a doom may await a sinner is so shocking that no other question can compare with its importance. How can today’s feasting or hunger, clothing or nakedness, honor or infamy, pleasure or pain compare in importance with a million years of pain, torment of body, mind and conscience?”

  107. Adrian Matthews says:

    ” I have no idea what is going to go down during these London 2012 Olympic Games, but what ever it is, it’s going to be very very evil.”

    …like millions of people throughout the world joining in two great endeavours, like disabled people, God’s people every bit as precious to him as anyone else, being feted in exactly the same way as able bodied athletes – except in a few places like the USA, but that was the fault mainly of NBC which gave such miserly coverage, not of the American people themselves – like tens of thousands of welcomers exuding goodwill. I could go on, but you get my drift, I’m sure.

    Wenlock and Mandeville were stupid aberrations that failed to sell, and the logo was much unloved, hardly the stuff of an all-powerful international conspiracy.

    The games could fairly be criticised for too big a presence of big business, and McDonalds being the only food outlet was particularly bizarre. It could be argued also that it cost too much, but it did provid employment in a time of recession, gave a moral boost to a country hitting hard times and has regenerated a massive area of London which never recovered from what the Luftwaffe did to it 65 years ago.

    There are plenty of evil things happening in the world, including in the UK, gross poverty, crime, breakdown of family life, malicious politicians and more besides, but people who abuse the Gospel by pressing it into the service of outlandish conspiracy theories are (albeit unwittingly) its enemies. They only blunt its message. They allow those opposed to it to dismiss it as a set of ridiculous fairy stories, and make the undecided run a mile.

    Have your conspiracy theories if you want, but don’t claim Divine inspiration for them.

  108. Adrian

    Me thinks you need to read ALL the comments.

  109. Paul (Continue in His Word) says:


    I think that your choice of words is an issue in the above debate. Rather than using the phrase “unwittingly follow/endorse/promote Rome…” perhaps it would be best to use the phrase “fellowshipping” with the “unfruitful works of darkness” promoted by Rome and the subtilty of Satan and his schemes.

    Yes, I am guilty of trying to be politically correct. You have to understand that I am writing in a conversation with one of the most gracious believer I have ever “met”. (I’m talking about Marion). And I have a reputation of being oftentimes cut and dried in my communications. I do not want to hurt my sister, or to come across as judgmental, I want to speak the truth in love. Obviously I inserted the word “unwittingly” just to try to be more gracious, even as Redeemed is gracious to me. Yet the truth remains the truth. If I was communicating with someone else, you can be sure I would have been more straightforward.
    What you say about the days of the week or the currency or all the other “things” of this Satan-controlled world is very simple and the very truth: Do we have the choice or not? That is the question.
    I take for example a believer living in muslim controlled country like Egypt, where I think the statutory weekend is friday-saturday and not saturday-sunday as in most other countries. So the work week is Sunday-Thursday. What will a believer do? Not go to work on Sunday because it is the Lord’s Day? Of course not. Will they not arrange themselves to worship the Lord in Spirit and in Truth during their statutory weekend? Of course yes.(By the way, I am not a legalistic. We are not under the law, and the Lord’s Day is not a kind of Sabbath à la Old Testament).

    Thanks for sharing that letter which hits the nail even harder on the truth about Christmas, ans as you say “as we learn the truth…we are without excuse”. you found the right words to put it, seasoned with grace.

    I must say that I am very sick as I witness the “circus” (sorry for the word) of Christmas at the IFB church my family attend. But (to the best of my knowledge) all other places in town are either fully or almost completely leavened.
    Where shall we go?
    What shall we do Lord while you tarry and we witness day by day the collapse of Biblical Christianity?
    What shall we do?

  110. Redeemed says:

    Adrian, if you could not see the occultic overtones that were so evident at this event then you need new glasses. This website is NOT into conspiracy theories and if you spent some time here you would realize that.

  111. Redeemed says:

    Dear brother Paul, I hear your love of the truth and I truly respect that. I think I share your desire to honor the Lord also. You have been gracious and I hope that I have reciprocated.

    I too despise the carnival atmosphere of Christmas, the partying, etc. but there will be no such nonsense in our home. It will focus on remembering the Lord’s wonderful and miraculous birth and some quality family time.

    I know that JRR would throw a fit if he could see some of the hijinks and compromise in the IFB church in our day. But there are still some pastors in small churches who are still sharing the Gospel, teaching the Word and tending their flocks. They are nondescript humble servants who just obey the Lord and rightly divide the Word and faithfully disciple. There is a remnant.

    May the Lord bless you and your family.

  112. Paul (Continue in His Word) says:

    Thanks Redeemed. May the Lord bless you as well and your family as you come together in this end of year holiday season.

    My comment #110 was actually addressed to Marion in response to her comment #106 as you must have understood. It should have started with “@Marion” and not “@Redeemed”.
    Also in the same comment I mistakenly wrote “(I’m talking about Marion)”. It should have been “(I’m talking about Redeemed)”

  113. Marion says:

    Two more very interesting articles I came across today. Worth pondering.

    (not an endorsement of any site)

    Kind words, Paul…to God be the glory alone!

  114. Redeemed says:

    Marion, I do so appreciate your no nonsense comments and respect your honesty and love for the truth.

    Any truth from Barbara Aho at the links you cited is tainted by her antisemitic views. I would not recommend that anyone visit her site. I don’t want to offend you, but I felt that this caution needed to be stated.

  115. Marion says:

    Redeemed…Thank you to you, for your kind words (to God be the glory!)
    …is the Beardsley site an Aho site? If so, I had no idea. This is why “use of any site is not an endorsement of any person, group ‘ministry’ or philosophy – informational only).” To be honest, we can even find the truth related to the “holidays and trappings” on the pagan and witchcraft sites. When the truth is revealed, it is true, no matter the source; although we must be VERY careful, remembering that we know not the hearts of those who inform, and that they are not necessarily “brethren.” To disregard the Aho site because of anti-seminitism (which I agree we must reject) means we can gather information from no where…

    So, I’m guessing you didn’t even read the GOOD information in those links because of her other error? That’s a shame!

    Those links stated above deliver much food for thought for those who are seeking to honor the Lord in all their ways. Truth is, all our comments, opinions, thoughts, motives, regardless of how pure we desire them to be, or even think them to be…are tainted as well. In no way, should we accept another’s words, comments, opinions as utter truth. They cannot be…save for one…Jesus! We are not to be gullible, blindly swallowing whatever is dished up as “truth” or “Christian teaching;” always filtering the words in our world, wherever they may be found through the filter of the Word of God.

    Quite honestly, even pagans can tell the truth…i.e. “the sky is blue,” even about “christ-mass”…in fact, they fully understand it and are quite amused by “Christian’s” enthusiastic embrace of the same! We know many a false teacher can deliver a “good” biblical message, with biblical “statements of faith,” causing some difficulty in ferreting out the “really good imposters.” AND they happen to have very good information related to the “apostasy” (while being immersed in it themselves) which is beneficial to us and we can use…as long as we remember…they are the enemy of our Lord Jesus Christ. Do we not gather information from “the news”, the internet…etc? We know not who people are or what they believe…but from the Word of God we do know this…that there are “few there be that find it”…the strait gate and the narrow way; there are MANY of “them.”

    You stated, “Any truth from Barbara Aho at the links you cited is tainted by her antisemitic views.” Certainly caution is always advised, BUT…I disagree in this…the “truth” is not “tainted.” What is corrupt is her anti-semitic views…she also has some other very strange ideas. However the above links merely put together a concise examination of the corrupt origins of “christ-mass”, the “traditions” and of special interest, the unbiblical messages in the popular “seasonal ‘christian’ music.”

    Those 2 links on that particular site…I DO recommend…for information…and a challenge to think about “what are we doing, why are we doing it, and from where does it come?…if not from the Word of God. I invite you, Redeemed to examine the information there, and then comment.

    “Iron sharpeneth iron; so a man sharpeneth the countenance of his friend.” (Prov. 27:17)
    PS…I’m not offended.

  116. John Chingford says:

    @ Redeemed:

    Hi Redeemed

    Where do the links from Marion mention Barbara Aho as the author? I have tried to find mention of BA but cannot trace anything. Is it because you just happen to know that J Beard and rapidnet are linked to BA?

  117. Paul (Continue in His Word) says:


    Who is this Tracy who runs
    I visited her web site and read some interesting truths she had to say, but I quickly noticed 3 warning signs:
    1. Her Sabbath keeping
    2. Her anti pre-trib (don’t know if she is post-trib, mid-trib or whatever else)
    3. Her anti Dispensationalism. Also she caricatures Dispensationalism and attribute to it some things that I don’t believe (like the Church age saints reigning in a heavenly City above the earthly Jerusalem during the Millenium, while Jesus is reigning on earth with the saved Jews of the Tribulation…)

    Is she sound?

  118. Redeemed says:

    @ John Chingford:

    Oh boy! Here I sit with egg all over my face. Thank you for pointing out my mistake. That is not Aho’s site and I don’t have any idea if there is a connection. I will just chalk it up to a senior moment and I have the gray hair to prove it! 🙂

  119. Redeemed says:

    Marion, please see my comment to Joh regardingn the site. I am truly sorry – I got confused. I am still peeling the egg off my face.

  120. Marion says:

    Hi Paul…Don’t know anything about her or any of her other articles. While searching, her site came up and I found the referenced article
    sound. Use of A sound article is not an endorsement of “any person, group, “ministry” or philosophy.” And as always, one needs to read with caution and discernment.

    Clearly, truth and error are found EVERYWHERE!

  121. Marion says:

    Redeemed – no worries. I have so much rattling around in my head I sometimes get my facts confused, and I have some gray hairs as well…

  122. Truthful Conversation says:

    I found this article regarding Christmas, and I thought that BL and Paul might be especially interested. As BL knows, the Lord laid it on my heart some years ago, that I should not celebrate Christmas.

    Tis the Season … FOR Pagan Worship

    Biblical Discernment Ministry …
    Rick Meisel. USA

    What many in Christendom have been celebrating–Christmas–is a thoroughly pagan holiday–in its origin, in its trappings, and in all its traditions.

    Read the words of … Charles Spurgeon, Henry Ironside, & Alexander Hislop:

    Charles Haddon Spurgeon , a sermon delivered on the Lord’s Day, December 24, 1871: “We have no superstitious regard for times and seasons. Certainly we do not believe in the present ecclesiastical arrangement called Christmas : first, because we do not believe in the mass at all, but abhor it, whether it be said or sung in Latin or in English; and secondly, because we find no Scriptural warrant whatever for observing any day as the birthday of the Saviour; and consequently, its observance is a superstition, because [it’s] not of divine authority. Superstition has fixed most positively the day of our Saviour’s birth, although there is no possibility of discovering when it occurred. …

    “It was not till the middle of the third century that any part of the church celebrated the nativity of our Lord; and it was not till very long after the Western church had set the example, that the Eastern adopted it. Because the day is not known, therefore superstition has fixed it; … Where is the method in the madness of the superstitious? Probably the fact is that the holy days were arranged to fit in with the heathen festivals. … We venture to assert that if there be any day in the year of which we may be pretty sure that it was not the day on which the Saviour was born, it is the twenty-fifth of December. … regarding not the day, let us, nevertheless, give God thanks for the gift of His dear Son.”

    And from Dr. H.A. Ironside ‘s Lectures on the Book of Revelation (1920: p. 301):
    “It is a lamentable fact that Babylon’s principles and practices are rapidly but surely pervading the churches that escaped from Rome at the time of the Reformation. We may see evidences of it in the wide use of high-sounding ecclesiastical titles, once unknown in the reformed churches, in the revival of holy days and church feasts such as Lent, Good Friday, Easter, and Christ’s Mass, or, as it is generally written, Christmas . … some ofthese festivals … when they are turned into church festivals, they certainly come under the condemnation of Galatians 4:9-11, where the Holy Spirit warns against the observance of days and months and times and seasons. All of them, and many more that might be added, are Babylonish in their origin, and were at one time linked with the Ashtoreth and Tammuz mystery-worship. It is through Rome that they have come down to us; and we do well to remember that Babylon is a mother, with daughters who are likely to partake of their mother’s characteristics …”

    And, finally, from Alexander Hislop ‘s The Two Babylons:Or the Papal Worship “Upright men strove to stem the tide, but in spite of all their efforts, the apostasy went on till the Church, with the exception of a small remnant, was submerged under pagan superstition. That Christmas is a pagan festival is beyond all doubt. The time of the year, and the ceremonies with which it is celebrated, prove its origin.”

    Some Common Rationalizations for Celebrating Christmas

    There is no Biblical warrant, precedent, nor precept for remembrance of the day of Christ’s birth as a day of special religious celebration. This is not to say that we shouldn’t remember Christ’s birth and its significance, but for religious commemorations or celebrations, we must have Biblical command or precedent! The fact of the matter is this–the early church did not celebrate Christ’s birth, but such celebration only came into the church with the “Christianization” of pagan rites as Catholicism was made the state religion by Constantine in the fourth century A.D. Since the Word of God does not support the tradition of Christmas, a Christian’s conscience ought not and must not be bound.

    Nevertheless, today’s evangelical church and its leaders have gone to great length to justify, yea, even command, the observance of this Roman Catholic holy day. The eight most common rationalizations put forth for celebrating Christmas are:

    1. “Christmas Provides a Festive Time to Share the Gospel” — In reality, this “special time of the year” is probably more a hindrance to the receptiveness of the gospel message than a help. Much of the celebration observed by our contemporary society deludes people into assuming that God is pleased, when in reality, He is offended by false religion, pseudo-worship, and alien philosophies. The ecumenical spirit and a counterfeit “love” under the guise of “peace and goodwill among men,” more than likely dulls one’s sensitivity to his desperate need to repent of sin and be reconciled to a holy God.

    2. “Christmas is Merely the Honoring of Christ’s Birth” — Someone says, “I know Christmas is of pagan origin, but I still think it’s not wrong for a church to have a special time for honoring Christ’s birth.” But since when did Protestants believe that Christians have the right to add to the Bible? Is the church a legislative body? Are we to follow the Bible in our faith and practice, or the thinking of fallible men? If we have the right to add a special holy day to the Christian economy, then we can add 10,000 other things. Then we will be no better than the false cults and the Roman Catholics who follow heathen traditions!

    3. “All I’m Doing is Putting Christ Back into Christmas” — The modern conservative cry to put Christ back into Christmas is absurd. Jesus Christ was never in Christmas. (Not until Constantine put Him there.) It’s a lie to say He was. He has no part in a lie. When anyone takes the truth and mixes a lie with it, they no longer have the truth. They have changed the truth into a lie. Neither is it possible to take a lie and mix enough truth with it to change the lie into the truth. You still come out with a lie. One may say, “Well, I know it’s not the truth, but I’ll put Christ back in Christmas and glorify God in it then.” No, you won’t. Christ never was in Christmas. You cannot change a lie into the truth. It should in reality be Baal-mass, Nimrod-mass, Tammuz-mass, Mithras-mass, or Mary-mass. Christ-mass is a lie. Why use a lie as a good time for a cardinal truth (the incarnation) of the Christian faith?

    4. “I’m Using Christmas to Witness for Christ, Just Like the Apostle Paul Did” — Some say that all they are doing is taking the “truth” from Christmas (i.e., the incarnation of Christ) and “cultivating” it as the Apostle Paul did (Acts 17/Mars Hill), taking the opportunity of the season to witness to a lost world. This would be fine if these Christians were actually doing only as Paul did. Paul, in addressing the Greek philosophers on Mars Hill, proclaimed to them that their “unknown god” to whom they had erected an Altar, was none other than “the God who made the world and all the things therein.” Paul was not intimidated by the pagan surroundings and symbolisms, nor did he berate the Greeks for their error, but merely showed them the truth of the gospel of Christ.

    But do Christians really use the “opportunity presented by the season” in the same way as Paul used the opportunity of the pagan Altar? Do Christians personally stand in front of their home-town public displays of Xmas (Nativity scenes, etc.) and preach the gospel? To paraphrase Paul, do they say: “Men of Indianapolis, I see that in every way you are very religious; what you worship as something unknown, I am going to proclaim to you”?

    Do they come out of the public schools where they have just attended their children’s Xmas programs and preach to the attendees about the true God who has been grossly misrepresented in the program they have witnessed?

    Hardly. Even to most of those who understand the true origin of Xmas, this “unique time of year” means inviting unbelievers into their homes to gather around the Xmas tree, to enjoy the beauty of the wreaths, absorb the heat from the Yule log, etc., reasoning that they are only using the pagan forms and the pagan festival season as an opportunity to witness. If Paul meant this in Acts 17, he would have met the people in the Athenian temple or in his or their homes, gathering around their idols which he had Christianized and was now using as a part of his worship.

    Most of the people who decorate their homes and churches with Xmas trees, holly wreaths, Nativity scenes, etc., all supposedly to be used as “opportunities” via “Xmas coffees,” neighborhood “grab bag” gift exchanges, Xmas concerts, etc., are thoroughly convinced that they’re doing God a service. And since they are not involved in the crass secular “commercialization” that the world revels in, but have instead “put Christ back in Xmas” (so to speak), they reason that all is Biblical and pleasing to God. 5. “It Doesn’t Mean Anything to Me” — Many Christians who routinely make a habit of picking-and-choosing which Biblical commands they will obey or not obey, have likewise carried this practice over into a justification for celebrating Christmas. They claim, “but the Christmas tree, mistletoe, Santa Claus, etc., don’t mean anything pagan to me, so I’ll exercise my Christian liberty and partake in all of it.” Obviously, if one were to take such a cavalier approach to the physical world (i.e., “I can drink rat poison because I choose not to regard it as poison”), it would likely lead to a quick physical death. Why then do Christians think they can avoid spiritual harm by ignoring God’s spiritual warnings?

    6. “The ‘Connection’ Has Been Broken” — There are those who clearly recognize the pagan nature of the various Christmas worship forms and practices. Nevertheless, many of these Christians claim that because of the long passage of time from their pagan inception to the present (6000 years?), the “connection” to paganism has been sufficiently diminished to allow the adoption of these forms and practices into our Christian worship and celebration. While it may be true that most symbols have lost their original demonic meaning and significance in a modern society, it is strangely bizarre and ironic that Christendom seeks to commemorate Christ’s birth with the faded symbols of Satan. And even though some of God’s people may be naive and ignorant about the source of these things, surely God is not. Can such things please Him? And think about this–if it were possible to “disconnect” current practices from their pagan/occultic roots, why does Scripture not provide us any guidelines as to: (a) how much time is necessary for the “neutralization”/disassociation process to occur; and (b) which of the hundreds of ancient pagan rites would then be acceptable for adaptation into Christian worship (since some are obviously much more pagan/occultic than others)?

    7. “There Are Hundreds of Other Items of Daily Life that Have a Pagan Origin” — It is said, “Such things as the wedding ring, certain clothing customs, the modern division of time into hours and minutes, the names of the days of the week, etc., all have pagan connections in their origins, so isn’t it a contradiction on your part to say that their meanings have sufficiently changed while Christmas’s meanings have not?” That’s not what we’re saying at all. We would ask the question back, “Which of these pagan items do we focus on to celebrate the birth of Christ? Or which of these is ‘Christianized’ and brought into our weekly worship of, or our daily devotion to, Christ, as you do with the pagan forms and traditions of Xmas?” The origin and meaning of a custom, tradition, or form does not take on significance unless it is somehow specifically incorporated into, or lined up with, our worship. These rings, clothing customs, etc. would be merely the by-products of paganism, not paganism itself, and they have developed no religious connotations or associations of their own, as have the Xmas customs and traditions.

    8. “Baptism (and Circumcision) Have Pagan Origins and God Still Gave Their Use in Scripture, So What’s Wrong With Using the Pagan Forms of Christmas?” –This argument is frequently made by pastors who say that to be consistent, those who would have us forbid the forms, symbols, and traditions of Christmas should also be calling for us to abandon believer’s baptism; i.e., shouldn’t the would-be banners of Christmas be saying, “Since the ancient mystery religions practiced forms of baptism, therefore baptism is a pagan custom and should be outlawed for the believer in Christ”? This is a strange argument for anyone to make, particularly a theologian (and, in our opinion, reveals a low view of Scriptural admonitions). If baptism were absent from the Bible, as using pagan forms and traditions to celebrate or commemorate Christ’s birthday are totally absent, there would then be no Biblical justification for baptism. But God has not commanded us to celebrate or commemorate Christ’s birth in any way. He has commanded us to baptize (Matt. 28:19).

    Should not the very popularity of Christmas cause the Christian to question it? Anyone and everyone can celebrate Christmas without question–outright pagans, nominal Christians, and even Buddhists and Hindus. If, in reality, December 25th was a date set by God to remember the birth of Jesus, you could be sure that the world would have nothing to do with it. After all, God has commanded one day in seven–the Lord’s Day–to worship Him. Does the world observe it? Of course not. As expected, the world loves Christmas, but hates the Lord Jesus Christ (Jn. 15:18, 23-25). It shuns anything pertaining to true religion. Shouldn’t the Christian be just a little suspicious of a celebration in which the whole sinful world can join without qualms?

    But when Christmas is exposed for what it really is, this angers people. It angers Protestant people! And there is reason why it does so. When the pagan celebration of Christmas is rooted up, and rejected, then what has become a Protestant tradition is, in effect, being rejected! And that is why people become angry. It began as a Roman Catholic holy day, and then it became a Protestant holy day. And if anyone dares show it up for what it really is, they face the wrath of the Protestant religious machine. And these days, that can be very ugly.

    We can summarize by saying that nowhere in Scripture are we commanded to commemorate the birth of our Lord, and God the Father evidently deemed it unwise to make the date known. Hence, it will always reImages unknown and is not to be ceremoniously remembered and celebrated. (In fact, God has warned us about getting entangled with any special days [Gal. 4:10].) Notice though, that we are commanded to remember Him in His death (but no special day was specified for this either)–“Take, eat; this is My body which is broken for you; this DO in remembrance of Me” (Luke 22:18,19; 1 Cor. 11:23-26). To commemorate His death is Scriptural. Any day of the year will do. To commemorate His birth is non-Scriptural, even extra-Scriptural (Deut. 4:2; 12:32; Prov. 30:6; Rev. 22:19), whether one chooses December 25th or any other day.

    If God had desired us to remember Christ’s birthday, He could have left us the precise date. But if He had, He would have vindicated every astrologer in the past 2,000 years. In occult circles, the anniversary of a person’s birth is the most important metaphysical day of the year. The Bible recognizes no such significance. It is intriguing that there are only two birthday celebrations recorded in the entire Bible and they were both those of ungodly kings–and both resulted in an execution (Gen. 40:16-22 and Matt. 14:6-10/Mark 6:21-27)!

    The Apostle Paul says: “God forbid that I should glory in anything except in the cross [not the manger ] of our Lord Jesus Christ” (Gal. 6:14). We find no salvation in the birth of the Lord Jesus by itself, for salvation was only made possible through His death (i.e., His shed blood) and resurrection. Our focus should be on the cross and our ascended Savior, not in a cradle. Those who love Jesus should certainly rejoice that He was born and lived amongst us as a man. But if we truly want to glorify Him and bear testimony of who He is, we must stop marrying that blessed gift with the debauchery of paganism. If we want to honor His birth, let it be done as He would have done it: year-round unselfishly serving our fellow man as an unending act of love for our God. Let us put away all of the mixture of pagan customs and take up His mantle and His pure worship, and show the confused world that there is a difference. The discussion about various christmas hymns being pagan has been omitted for lack of room…
    Editor Despatch [Some of the above article has been adapted from other sources.

  123. Paul (Continue in His Word) says:

    Did you receive my email to David Cloud re-Christ’s Mass? I forwarded it to you yesterday.

  124. Paul

    >> Did you receive my email to David Cloud re-Christ’s Mass? I forwarded it to you yesterday.

    Yip got it 🙂

  125. Paul (Continue in His Word) says:

    @Truthful Conversation,

    Thanks for that article. It is actually an extract from the second link posted by Marion in #114.

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