Are Ron Martoia, Stephan Joubert and Nelus Niemandt Experts in their Field?

Deborah (Discerning the World)

Deborah Ellish is the author of the above article. Discerning the World is an internet Christian Ministry based in Johannesburg South Africa. Tom Lessing and Deborah Ellish both own Discerning the World. For more information see the About this Website page below the comments section.

29 Responses

  1. Amanda says:

    Let me help you out with the Ron Martoia quotes. You seem to miss an important part of the puzzle. Those who meditate, subject their brains and thinking into extra-ordinary processes as described in the article below. Please read the full article as it will help you to understand.

    What I find very interesting is the reference to epilepsy and how abnormal electrical activity in the brain can produce a religious experience. I have an educational video that shows children having different types of seizures. In one clip you can see a girl having an absence seizure. She is talking away and then her eyes loose their focus and her facial muscles go slack and she is clearly unconscious. I have seen the exact same sequence in the Toronto blessing videos. Another clip shows Howard-Brown zapping people and they burst into uncontrollable laughter. The one man gasps that it hurts, before being thrown into another fit of hard laughter. There was nothing amusing about it. Did you know that there is a rare type of seizure called gelastic seizures that look exactly like that? Parents report that their children show extreme fear when they know the seizure is starting. It is most unpleasant. When Kenneth Copeland zaps Rodney Howard-Brown, he falls to the ground unconscious as if in a generalized seizure.

    Those who have the condition called epilepsy, battle the seizures. Others, who seek after ‘transcendence’, induce altered states of consciousness deliberately and call it the presence of god. It seems to me that meditation is the LSD of the emergent church.

  2. Discerning the World says:

    Ah yes, maybe my ‘leave your brain at the door’ comment is actually a good idea in more ways than one…lol

  3. Discerning the World says:

    You know I think I am gonna post this as an article by itself if you don’t mind Amanda. I will leave it here too. I so agree with what is written above…

  4. Amanda says:

    Go ahead. I think it is important for us to understand that something has happened in their brains.

  5. cecilia says:

    Amanda, I did a study some time ago about this function in the brain when “under a spell” or “spiritual awakening” etc. will search my “paper documents” and place asap. cecilia

  6. Amanda says:

    Thank you, cecilia. So we learn from Meditation suite.101 that:

    Neuroscientists like Richard Davidson have found that regular meditation can fundamentally alter the way the brain functions…

    During meditation, the experienced meditators in the study showed high-frequency gamma waves, a brain wave pattern associated with higher mental activity, perception and consciousness.

    The gamma wave frequency was higher than normal even before they started meditating. This suggests that the impact of meditation on the brain waves is permanent and not limited to the meditation session itself.

    So when they speak, we have to bear in mind that the words come from a brain that has been altered.

    The Tibetan monks are known for their happy disposition. They control their happiness through their brain? Maybe that is why the emergents shy away from unhappy words like sin, wrath, judgement,repentence and hell?

  7. Amanda says:

    Thank you, cecilia. That will be much appreciated. Read the Ron Martoia quotes again. I can only feel pity.

  8. Discerning the World says:

    I concur. And then you have Neurotherapy that does the exact same thing except it’s on a completely medical/scientific level. You can alter brainwaves on the Alpha, Beta and Theta levels to control pretty much anything in the brain.

    If someone for instance has a propper medical condition where their brainwave frequencies were not functioning correctly, adjustments can actually be made using Neurotherapy to amend the problem – to a certain extent depending on what’s wrong. For an example, obsessive compulsiveness can be helped by adjusting frequencies on certain areas of the brain where these areas are just not communicating properly – like fixing the soldering on a transmitter on a chip.

    Now, take someone who has a normal functioning brain where there is no deviation from the norm – in order words, the different lobes in the brain and all their little parts are working at the right frequencies and connecting properly. It can take just one tansmitter to fuse, or th wiring to come loose for a hundred other things to go wrong in the brain.

    For instance when you go for an EEG – they are monitoring your brainwaves. Neurologists can tell by reading that sqiggly chart if something is amiss. With the advancement of science you can now go and have much bigger scans that will tell you indepth what is going on in that head of yours. And based on what scientists know to be ‘correct brain data’ through years of study, they will compare your scan to that of someone your age, gender, etc and work out what’s wrong and where.

    During Neurotherapy they will then over a long period of time adjust certain parts of the brain to work at the correct frequencies and as things slowly come right in certain areas, those other hundred things start to come right too… Once the brain learns the new frequency, it STORES it, it remembers what the NEW frequency is and as time goes by the symptoms start to get better as the brain has been re-trained.

    So, Neurotherapy can adjust a persons mental activity, perception and consciousness based on messing with the brain. Meditation does the exact same thing except meditation is done through a spiritual process where occult techniques are applied to clear the mind. Once the mind is made blank, the brain is then reprogrammed during the mediation process with a NEW way of thinking.

    Your brain is what controls your entire body, when you are brain dead your body ceases to function. When you eat a chocolate for example and you get that 5 second rush of happiness it’s not you who is happy – it’s your brain. A chemical reaction takes place and your brain says, “Ah, I needed that” (Ok that’s my brain speaking here…dunno what your’s says lol). It’s a chemical deficiency that caused your brain to react that way in the first place. So now your brain knows that when it feels stressed or overly sad – giving it a chocolate will cause it to be happy or de-stressed (even if it’s only for 5 seconds).

    The same thing with meditation. In fact I am going to coin the phrase: Meditation, the New Chocolate. (Keeping an eye on anyone who steals this, I’m onto you…) Ok…, you are told to meditate cos it’s gonna help relieve your stress, or you are told to meditate because everyone else is doing it, or you went to church and instead of chairs they had yoga mats and decided that instead of a sermon you were going to actually try something different, or you are just new age and you connect with angels and spirit guides on a regular basis, or you went for a massage and someone told you Reiki was just the most relaxing thing ever, not knowing that ‘Reiki are demonic spirit guides’. So you try it, and wow, you actually feel good afterwards.

    How can anything that makes you feel good, be bad?

    Well, now that you liked the feeling you try again, and again, but you find yourself not getting further than the feeling you felt when you first started. So you search for more info (as the spirit guide who is now leading starts to change your ‘thinking’). But you are stuck, you are a Christian! You’ve known most of your adult life that this is not Christian, the Bible condems witchcraft. But if your church says it’s ok, then gosh it can’t be bad, surely. A Pastor will NEVER lie. So to appease your conscience(ness) and you go look for Christian meditation… that should make what is EVIL, GOOD.

    Great, you are on your way to a new mind, a new way of thinking, a transformation, you have been brainwashed, you have gone way beyond the veil of occult knowledge without even knowing it. The more you do it the deeper you go, or should we say the more VERTICAL you travel, the higher you go. In order to reach God you have to transcend…

    Everyone who is meditating now has the anti-Christ spirit attempting to direct their thinking and though process. Everything that you believe to be true is now no longer true, you seem to be a different person. Everyone around you is all speaking the same spiritual language. Love, Happiness, Peace and Joy.

    When someone says that they don’t agree with this new thing that you are and whole world are ‘into’ you get angry and disagree – how can anyone oppose Love, Happiness, Peace and Joy. The ‘spirit’ in you says, ‘that person is not one of us, they are dis-connected – we need to connect them, UNITE THE WORLD”.

    And the Obama says, “YES WE CAN!” in fine print (and if they refuse to connect too us spiritually then we will just force them).

  9. Amanda says:

    Wow, DTW. I am stunned and in need of chocolate. This is very sad. So in order to ‘feel good’, you do not need to repent and trust in Jesus Christ’s atoning sacrifice on the cross. You do not need to have faith in the Word of God. Truth is determined by feelings? If it makes me feel good, it is good?

    Thomas, over at Watch and Pray, wrote about the same emerged crew in an excellent article called: The subtle inhibition or suppression of the true meaning of the cross of Jesus Christ:

    In a nutshell it means that the changing of your brain through spiritual contemplative disciplines such as contemplative and centering prayer or meditation is a very powerful tool to change the world, simply because it produces and enhances like-mindedness, but it is a like-mindedness (unity) that contradicts the unity the Bible teaches. Sadly, however, this is a very far cry from Jesus Christ’s command to go into all the world, make disciples of the nations and to teach them to observe everything He taught us. The emergent contemplatives have an enormous problem with this particular way in making followers of Christ. Oh yes! they have nothing against making men followers of Christ (Jesus Christ who?) but the offence of His cross must be removed from people’s brains. It is steeped in rigid doctrines and as such hampers man in his contemplative endeavours to achieve peacefulness, social awareness and compassion amongst all peoples and their great variety of spiritualities.

  10. Amanda says:


    In fact I am going to coin the phrase: Meditation, the New Chocolate.

    Disagree. Chocolate does not cause you to talk gibberish and deny the blood of the Lamb.

  11. Discerning the World says:

    Ag no Amanda. I thought that was a good one liner lol. Ok seriously, yes meditation is very SERIOUS, for the demonic spirits that perches itself just waiting for one to ‘open’ your mind is beyond comprehension.

    People are playing with fire and their pastors, the ones that are supposed to be ‘trusted’ – the shepperd that is supposed to look after the sheep is leading them right into the hands of a pack of wolves.

  12. 1 How blessed is the man who does not walk in the counsel of the wicked,
    Nor stand in the path of sinners,
    Nor sit in the seat of scoffers!
    2 But his delight is in the law of the LORD,
    And in His law he meditates day and night.

    Of course I’m not saying that this is what elements in the emergent movement are advocating however it is necessary to acknowledge that the word meditation means different things to different people. The word itself is inline with Scripture and is an appropriate way to approach God’s word.

    Maybe meditation is the good chocolate after all.

  13. Discerning the World says:

    Meditate in the Bible means prayer. Normal simple prayer, a relationship with God, prayer (a normal conversation in prayer) thought Jesus Christ His only begotten son. If you want to meditate/pray the OCCULT way, then that’s what you CHOOSE TO DO. I warn you though.

    Why don’t you go and do some research to find out why occult meditation is NOT biblical prayer!!

  14. Hi DTW,

    Is English your first language? I do not say that to be rude but you frequently don’t seem to understand the comments that people write. This is not the first time that you’ve reacted offensively to me after misinterpreting something I’ve said.

    I said, “The word itself is inline with Scripture and is an appropriate way to approach God’s word.”

    I seldom write anything without doing some research. I went and read the 18 uses of the word translated as meditation or meditate in the Old Testament and the 1 in the New. The word is clearly tied closely to Scripture, understanding God and praying to Him. As such my statements are not in conflict with Scripture nor your understanding of the use of the word.

    My personal favorite use of the word is in the New Testament, Paul is speaking to Timothy and you’ll see the close connection between meditate and the Word of God, “12 Let no man despise thy youth; but be thou an example of the believers, in word, in conversation, in charity, in spirit, in faith, in purity. 13 Till I come, give attendance to reading, to exhortation, to doctrine. 14 Neglect not the gift that is in thee, which was given thee by prophecy, with the laying on of the hands of the presbytery. 15 Meditate upon these things; give thyself wholly to them; that thy profiting may appear to all. 16 Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee.”

  15. Discerning the World says:


    YES, we both speak a different language. I speak the from the Gospel of Jesus Christ and you speak from the Emergent Gospel – Two different messages, two different languages.

    I on the other hand understand you totally. I get upset because you don’t unsterstand what you are getting yourself involved in.

    If that’s your research on meditation. Then I can see why 99% of the world will be following, running, tripping after the false Christ.

    Mark, I am doing all your research for you, should have some of it online tomorrow. Use it, don’t use…at least I try to warn you.

  16. Amanda says:

    I speak the from the Gospel of Jesus Christ and you speak from the Emergent Language.

    Yes. They have taken the words and have given them new meanings. When they say ‘gospel, Christ, kingdom, good, law, sin, truth, Satan, judgement, justice, redemption, be still, quiet and meditation, they mean something completely different to what the Bible teaches. It is time for an emergent dictionary!

    Here is Chris Rosebrough’s review of Shane Hipps’ Sermon at Rob Bell’s Mars Hill Bible Church on the Spiritual Discipline of Silence.

  17. Amanda says:

    Here is another Christian-emergent encounter. Chris Rosebrough and Bob DeWaay attended the Emergent Moltmann Conference and thought they have lost their grip on reality. It is that language thing again, or maybe they suffer from textual addiction. P.S. They do not meditate.

  18. Discerning the World says:


    Meditate (Based on Word of God teaching) = Normal Prayer, Prayer as in a normal conversation with God, obeying the Holy Spirit.

    Mantra (does not exist in the Word of God)

    Matthew 6:7 Jesus said: “And when you pray, do not use vain repetitions as the heathen do. For they think that they will be heard for their many words.”

    Give attendance to reading = Pay attention, read the Word of God often, make sure you are interpreting scripture correctly and you can only interpret scripture correct through the Holy Spirit. If you are not born again and have the Holy Spirit abide in you, your interpretation of scripture will always be incorrect. And the answer to this question is come to be saved Mark by Jesus Christ the Son of God and not the false Christ who offers many paths to him.

    1 John 4 1 Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world.

    doctrine = Correct doctrine NOT doctrine of demons (new age/occult doctrine)

    Jesus tells us to be vigilant, be awake:

    1 Peter 5:8 8 Be of sober spirit, be on the alert Your adversary, the devil, prowls around like a roaring lion, seeking someone to devour.

    2 Corinthians 11:4 4 For if one comes and preaches another Jesus whom we have not preached, or you receive a different spirit which you have not received, or a different gospel which you have not accepted, you bear this beautifully

    No where in the bible do you find Jesus: Meditating, sitting with legs crossed, doing breathing exercises, repeating words over again, entering a trance like state, saying AUM, speaking about vibrations, vizualizing, walking in circles, etc, etc, etc,.

    Find 1 verse in scripture where Jesus says that His message will change as the centuries change?
    Find 1 verse in scripture where Jesus says his message will not be relevant to mankind 2000 years after He ascended?

    You are confusing Roman Catholicism being Christian vs. genuine Christianity. Roman Catholicism is drenched in the Blood of the Saints. The Roman Christ is the Eucharist Christ permanently nailed to a crucifix whos Mother is an incarnation of many goddesses throughout the ages, right back to Egyptian Isis and her son Horus (false Christ).

    The Emergent Church is a Roman Catholic vessel (their evangelization tool) being used to bring Roman Catholic authority over the earth, disguised under the banner of Genuine Christianity.

  19. Hi DTW,

    Everything I’ve written about meditation can be found [AdMo: url removed]

    It does not conflict with what you’ve written. You are punching into the wind.

  20. Discerning the World says:


    >> It does not conflict with what you’ve written.

    That’ll be the day…

    Ah but I forgot who you are associated with, and this comment I made to you on the 24 Aug 09:

    Submitted on 2009/08/24 at 6:03am


    Ahh I see you are acqainted with Steve Khanya. He is Rogers ‘mentor’ or whatever. In fact I wrote an article about Steve who lumped born again Christians to the same category as those who started Inquisitions.

    See above under RELATED POSTS FOR: Born Again Christians are Now Compared to Inquisitors of the Inquisitions

    This conversation with you is a waste of my time, fortunately all is not lost – thankfully there is someone out there who is reading this and through the guidance of the Holy Spirit in their life will see right through the lies because they LOVE the Word of God.

  21. Amanda says:

    Stephan Joubert and Nelus Niemandt are not “Experts in their Field.”

    No, no, they are giants, according to yoga enthusiast, Ron.

    I am more convinced than ever that the deepest changes in how Christianity does it’s work will center around a new type of spirituality. We haven’t done a good job at helping people see how change and formation happen. And my personal hunch is we have defined the problem wrong. We seem to be sin-centric instead of imago dei-centric. Problem solving and holiness fixing, rather than freedom granting and life giving.

    I spoke at a spirituality congress in South Africa where quite honestly I was a spiritual peon amongst giants. Willem Nichol, Trevor Hudson, Johan Geyser, Gys Du Plessis and Stephan Joubert all my elders and all more deeply experienced, were the docket of speakers at this conversation on the what and how of spirituality.

    More than ever I am convinced apophatic spirituality, Cloud of Unknowing type of stuff is part of the missing pattern in our formation. We are clueless how to do Psalm 46.10 spirituality and instead of learning to be still (an interior condition) I think we have confused it with sitting still (an exterior posture).

    The most dramatic thing I am reminded of on a nearly daily basis is just how modern, textual and information our spirituality is. Interestingly this is not where Bonaventure sat (think Soul’s Journey to God), or St Teresa of Avila (Interior Castle) or San Juan de La Cruz (St. John of the Cross) or earlier still John Cassian’s Conferences. I was reminded by these great mentors I shared the platform with just how rare the work is on interior silence is where we can watch the constructed egoic self in action. Where we take insight from what arises in our awareness and how to move toward the letting go of a centering practice (the main point of my talk Silence is the First Language of God {a quote from St John of the Cross})

    We must must must move beyond the textual addiction of modernity and move toward the place of quiet. Only there can we see the judger gene, the real issue raised in the Genesis 1-3 narrative, and learn the letting go work that needs to be done for us to be deeply formed.

    DTW, you are in the grips of textual addiction. Tut-tut.

  22. Discerning the World says:


    >> you are in the grips of textual addiction. Tut-tut.

    Ah man…that sucks!!

    But seriously. Yes, they are seperating the Word of God from God. So you can throw the Bible away and just follow ‘Jesus’. What they fail to realise in all their giganticness (they must be close to the Alchamist level) that they can’t do this.

    For Jesus Christ IS the Word made Flesh. If you try in anyway to change this you DENY Jesus Christ. And if in their minds they believe they have accomplished this then they DENY Jesus Christ.

    The sad part is they honestly think that because they ‘say it and preach it and pass on the new message’ that it’s actually so – All they have done is created a new religion with a fake Christ where the Word (textual) no longer exists. Because what we speak now becomes the word instead. We become the gospel as per this horrendus emergent thinking.

    >> “Cloud of Unknowing type of stuff is part of the missing pattern in our formation” what on earth is that? Don’t answer…I actually don’t want to know.

    >> We must must must move beyond the textual addiction of modernity and move toward the place of quiet

    Oh they need to hurry up and reach this place of quiet quickly – If I am not mistaken it comes with at least a 10 year pact to silence where they are not to make another peep or tweet! That can save a few hundred people from further deception.

  23. cecilia says:

    i’d like to throw in a little comment here? Most members of the Afrikaans Susters Kerke, fall easily in this trap of opening up to New Age (very often connected to the occultic) teachings. I often thought why and discover that sisters are supposed to have a mother. and following the footsteps of history, discovering their mother is the Roman Catholic Organization (which the world wrongly calls “a church”). cecilia

  24. Danny Sullivan says:

    Nail the Ron MARTOIA’S – SORRY satanists – of this world. Well done!!!I just find it amazing that there are intelligent people out there that fall for this trash. This is the real tragedy of life and that is that there are somany loved ones lost to satan because of idiots like MARTOIA.
    If I read the word of our Lord as a fisherman like Peter, I come to this conclusion in my own simple way ie. God wants us all to have the same mind and spirit and belong to the same or one “church”. Jesus said,” Upon this rock-statement by Peter-I will build MY church. THAT MEANS ALL MAN -MADE CHURCHES ARE TABOO. Any comments? Regards. Danny

  25. Steven says:


    I am scared when I read the comments here. The right thing to do is to measure what is said against scripture and question whether what was said was said in love. Everything we do should be in love, reflecting the way in which Jesus has done everything He has done. I find very little of that here. That goes for most of what I have seen here.

    If it can’t be done in love and you just want to argue then argue properly, have a proper debate (or is it not biblical to have one). In a debate both sides of an argument is stated and evidence provided. For instance show what the URL is on comment
    Mark Penrith
    18 September, 2009 at 3:24 am
    or are our eyes, minds and spirits not developed enough to comprehend understand or misunderstand what is there.

    So if you please…


  26. Chris De Wet says:

    When I read the Bible the Lord says that if we love Him we will keep his commandments. What Martoia, Joubert and Niemandt are promoting is not love, because they are quite opposite to what the Lord calls love.

    Nowhere in Scripture do I find that the Lord or any of the apostles took kindly to those who twist Scripture out of context. Paul, Peter, John, James etc warn us against such people.

    We seem to forget that the Lord Jesus overturned the tables in the Temple, as well as call the Pharisees a brood of vipers. We also seem to forget Scriptures like:Tit 1:13 This witness is true. Wherefore rebuke them sharply, that they may be sound in the faith;Tit 2:15 These things speak, and exhort, and rebuke with all authority. Let no man despise thee.

    People who do not beleive that the Lord came in the flesh are defined as follow by the Word:1Jn 2:21 I have not written unto you because ye know not the truth, but because ye know it, and that no lie is of the truth.
    1Jn 2:22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.

    Believers who are supposed to be the Bride of Christ have become too tollerant of blasphemy – all this in the cause of so called love. To tollerate blasphemy in the name of love is not the Love for the Lord Who says all over Scripture that to love Him is to keep His commandments – no those who tollerate blashemy must understand what the Lord Jesus said:Rev 2:20 Notwithstanding I have a few things against thee, because thou sufferest that woman Jezebel, which calleth herself a prophetess, to teach and to seduce my servants to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed unto idols.

    The church has in the name of love fornicated with error, another Jesus, another Spirit and another Gospel.

    Part of the Body and precious Bride of Christ have fallen asleep and their lamps are not burning. Wake up Church!

  27. The above and S Joubert’s quotes are ‘the signs of the time’. Paul explains, 2Th 2:3 Let no one in any way deceive you, for that day cannot come without the coming of the apostasy first…

    Strange as it my seem, I write [] what I like and I like what I write. The article ‘The Gospel’ is a favourite.

  28. "Moruti" Lutz says:

    I find a lot of fascinating stuff on your site. Though I do not share your evaluation thereof, it is a great compilation of valuable resources and connections.
    I only wish you could announce conferences upfront, that would be even more helpful.

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