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Ee-mmergency! Releasing Christian Youth Into The Fire!

Ee-mmergency! Releasing Christian Youth Into The Fire!

Change Agents - Christian youth

Think new, act new …

“Change Agents is a youth leaders training conference. It is a place where youth leaders of diverse cultures come to discuss changing ministry in a changing world. Change Agents was originally an extension of the first SACLA conference – indeed, the first few Change Agent’s were also referred to as SACLA – as well as a successor to Youth for Christ’s National Youth Leaders Training Conference.

We’ve set up this site as a centre of conversation around ministry and the changing youth ministry landscape in South Africa; the leadership is also using it to host their discussions around the different areas of responsibilty they must fulfill so that the August conference can happen.

We’d love your input too, since the discussion around youth ministry is not something reserved for a few elite people but a grassroots thing. The site is divided into groups – some of which are restricted to certain people to allow for privacy, and some of which are open to allow for conversation (we’re hoping to extend these to the Connect groups soon). We encourage you to join.”  [Emphasis added]

[DTW note:  oh, pick me, pick me, I have some input:  how about preaching the Gospel of Jesus Christ as it was preached 2000 years ago and stop trying to change it using brainwashed little ‘change agents’.]

[Edited 3/9:  Roger Saner from EmergingAfrica, once part of the leadership team for Change Agents had this to say on his facebook setup regarding repentance of sin and that telling someone to “Stop sinning and follow God” is almost an insulting statement and is NOT the gospel.

Emerging Church Conversation in South Africa

As more people start reading Brian McLaren and John MacArthur they’re finding out about this thing called “The Emerging Church” which is either a very hopeful thing, or the biggest threat to Christianity the world has ever seen.

So, first up, this “Church” isn’t a church – it’s a conversation and a friendship between people who suspect something has gone deeply wrong with Western Christianity. Although some of the conversation might be depressing, ultimately it’s a hopeful participation in the rebuilding of the very architecture of Western Christianity.

Within South Africa, we know from our history that in spite of over 70% of the country being Christian, we managed to divorce our private faith from our public beliefs quite successfully, taking a long time to denouce structural evil (at least, this applies to the whities – others always knew that this thing was wrong). And what is more, we used Biblical justification for Apartheid…which means, as we move beyond that, we need to see the incorrect ways in which we approached (and used) the Bible…

Plus, we’re surrounded with enough people in poverty for whom “Stop sinning and follow God” is almost an insulting statement. What good does it do to tell someone they have life with God after they die, but do nothing to help them now? We suspect that this story is more self-serving and although clothed in the appearance of the Gospel, is not the Gospel[Emphasis added]

“It is beyond me how the church managed to get through the last 200 years without paying much attention to these lines in the Lord’s Prayer: ‘Your will be done ON EARTH as it is in heaven.'” N.T. Wright, 1st century scholar and New Testament theologian.

We haven’t “watered down the Gospel” as some accuse, in fact we would say that the Gospel already has been watered down to appeal to modern, individualistic minds. Now we get a chance to create something new as we go forward into the 21st century…

Roger Saner:    http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=2419328874

Well Roger, lets see what the Bible has to say about repentance of sin, no matter if they are rich or poor, no matter the time of day.  If you have a Bible please do go to the following verses and read along.

———

What is Sin?

Romans 8:7

7 because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so

Romans 8:3-4

3For what the Law could not do, weak as it was through the flesh, God did: sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and as an offering for sin, He condemned sin in the flesh,  4so that the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.

Should we be concerend about Sin?

Romans 6:23

23For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

How does God view those who lead others into sin?

Mark 9:42

42 Whoever causes one of these little ones who believe to stumble, it would be better for him if, with a heavy millstone hung around his neck, he had been cast into the sea.

Consequences of sin:

  • Death:   

Genesis 2:16-17   16The LORD God commanded the man, saying, “From any tree of the garden you may eat freely;   17but from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat from it you will surely die.”

  • Man’s shame and fear towards God.

Before the fall, Adam and Eve walked and talked with God. To us, how lucky they were. After they ate, they could not stand the sight of God, and felt ashamed in confronting God. To those who may take the Garden of Eden less literally than others, you can still see in yourself and others the shame of being around God when we know we’ve sinned.

  • All mankind is now sinners:  

Romans 5:12-14    12Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned-  13for until the Law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law.  14Nevertheless death reigned from Adam until Moses, even over those who had not sinned in the likeness of the offense of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come.

  • The Earth is also poisoned by sin.    

Genesis 3:17    

17Then to Adam He said, “Because you have listened to the voice of your wife, and have eaten from the tree about which I commanded you, saying, ‘You shall not eat from it’;  Cursed is the ground because of you;  In toil you will eat of it.All the days of your life

Romans 8:20-21  

20For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it, in hope.  21that the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God.

  • God’s wrath against sin:

Mankind was kicked out of the Garden of Eden by God for sinning, and was prevented from returning. God hates sin, and it was a while before one’s sins could be dealt with in the Mosaic laws.

Repentance of Sin is the only way to produce GOOD FRUIT:

Matthew 3:8

“Therefore bear fruit in keeping with repentance;

Repentance is a change of attitude and action, not just muttering:

Luke 3:8

8“Therefore bear fruits in keeping with repentance, and do not begin to say to yourselves, ‘We have Abraham for our father,’ for I say to you that from these stones God is able to raise up children to Abraham.

Restoration:  Example, The Prodigal Son:

Luke 15:21-22

 21“And the son said to him, ‘Father, I have sinned against heaven and in your sight; I am no longer worthy to be called your son.’ 22“But the father said to his slaves, ‘Quickly bring out the best robe and put it on him, and put a ring on his hand and sandals on his feet;  23and bring the fattened calf, kill it, and let us eat and celebrate;  24for this son of mine was dead and has come to life again; he was lost and has been found.’ And they began to celebrate.

Confess sin – Promise of Forgiveness:

1 John 9-11

8If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us. 9If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar and His word is not in us.

Repent Repent Repent:

Luke 13:3

3“I tell you, no, but unless you repent, you will all likewise perish.

Matthew 4:17

17 From that time Jesus began to preach and say, “Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.”

Matthew 3:2

2 “Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.”

Great commission / Good News was that:

Mark 6:12

12They went out and preached that men should repent.

Acts 2:38

38Peter said to them, “Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Proverbs 14:12 

12There is a way which seems right to a man,  But its end is the way of death.

Temptation turns to sin:

James 1:14-15

14But each one is tempted when he is carried away and enticed by his own lust.15Then when lust has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and when sin is accomplished, it brings forth death.

Repent, TURN FROM YOUR WICKED WAYS:

Ezekiel 18:23-31

23“Do I have any pleasure in the death of the wicked,” declares the Lord GOD, “rather than that he should turn from his ways and live? 24“But when a righteous man turns away from his righteousness, commits iniquity and does according to all the abominations that a wicked man does, will he live? All his righteous deeds which he has done will not be remembered for his treachery which he has committed and his sin which he has committed; for them he will die.25“Yet you say, ‘The way of the Lord is not right ‘ Hear now, O house of Israel! Is My way not right? Is it not your ways that are not right?26“When a righteous man turns away from his righteousness, commits iniquity and dies because of it, for his iniquity which he has committed he will die. 27“Again, when a wicked man turns away from his wickedness which he has committed and practices justice and righteousness, he will save his life. 28“Because he considered and turned away from all his transgressions which he had committed, he shall surely live; he shall not die.29“But the house of Israel says, ‘The way of the Lord is not right.’ Are My ways not right, O house of Israel? Is it not your ways that are not right? 30“Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, each according to his conduct,” declares the Lord GOD. “Repent and turn away from all your transgressions, so that iniquity may not become a stumbling block to you. 31“Cast away from you all your transgressions which you have committed and make yourselves a new heart and a new spirit! For why will you die, O house of Israel?

Ezekiel 33:11

11 Say to them, ‘As I live!’ declares the Lord GOD, ‘I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that the wicked turn from his way and live Turn back, turn back from your evil ways! Why then will you die, O house of Israel?’

Man’s ways contrast what God wants:

Ephesians 4:17-24

17So this I say, and affirm together with the Lord, that you walk no longer just as the Gentiles also walk, in the futility of their mind, 18being darkened in their understanding, excluded from the life of God because of the ignorance that is in them, because of the hardness of their heart;19and they, having become callous, have given themselves over to sensuality for the practice of every kind of impurity with greediness.20But you did not learn Christ in this way,21if indeed you have heard Him and have been taught in Him, just as truth is in Jesus,22that, in reference to your former manner of life, you lay aside the old self, which is being corrupted in accordance with the lusts of deceit,23and that you be renewed in the spirit of your mind,24and put on the new self, which in the likeness of God has been created in righteousness and holiness of the truth.

Ephesians 2:1-3

1And you were dead in your trespasses and sins,  2in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience.3Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest.

Galatians 5:16

16 So I say, live by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the sinful nature.

Matthew 5:28-29

“But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart. If your right eye causes you to sin, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to be thrown into hell.”

Romans 8:5-9

Those who live according to the sinful nature have their minds set on what that nature desires; but those who live in accordance with the Spirit have their minds set on what the Spirit desires. The mind of the sinful man is death, but the mind controlled by the Spirit is life and peace; the sinful mind is hostile to God. It does not submit to God’s law, nor can it do so. Those controlled by the sinful nature cannot please God. You, however, are not controlled by the sinful nature but by the Spirit, if the Spirit of God lives in you

Ephesians 5:15-17

Be very careful, then, how you live, not as unwise but as wise, making the most of every opportunity, because the days are evil. Therefore, do not be foolish, but understand what the Lord’s will is.

Ephesians 5:8-10

For you were once in darkness, but now you are light in the Lord. Live as children of light (for the fruit of the light consists in all goodness, righteousness, and truth) and find out what pleases the Lord.

James 1:25

25But one who looks intently at the perfect law, the law of liberty, and abides by it, not having become a forgetful hearer but an effectual doer, this man will be blessed in what he does.

The Gift of God that comes with Repentance:

1 Peter 2:2 

Like newborn babies, crave pure spiritual milk, so that by it you may grow up in your salvation, now that you have tasted that the Lord is good.

Psalms 119:104-105

I gain understanding from your precepts; therefore, I hate every wrong path. Your word is a lamp to my feet and a light for my path.

Psalms 16:11

You have made known to me the path of life; you will fill me with joy in your presence, with eternal pleasures at your right hand.

2 Peter 1:3-4

3seeing that His divine power has granted to us everything pertaining to life and godliness, through the true knowledge of Him who called us by His own glory and excellence.4For by these He has granted to us His precious and magnificent promises, so that by them you may become partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world by lust.

Romans 12:1-2

1Therefore I urge you, brethren, by the mercies of God, to present your bodies a living and holy sacrifice, acceptable to God, which is your spiritual service of worship. 2And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, so that you may prove what the will of God is, that which is good and acceptable and perfect.

MORE Warnings:

Isaiah 30:15

This is what the Sovereign Lord, the Holy One of Israel, says: “In repentance and rest is your salvation, in quietness and trust is your strength, but you would have none of it.”

Philippians 3:19

Their destiny is destruction, their god is their stomach, and their glory is their shame. Their mind is on earthly things.

2 Peter 2:21-22 

It would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than to have known it and then to turn their backs on the sacred command that was passed on to them. Of them the proverbs are true: “A dog returns to its own vomit,” and “A sow that is washed goes back to wallowing in the mud.”

Luke 9:62

62But Jesus said to him, “No one, after putting his hand to the plow and looking back, is fit for the kingdom of God.”

How URGENT and IMPORTANT is repentance of sin?

Isaiah 55:6-7

Seek the Lord while he may be found; call on him while he is near. Let the wicked forsake his way and the evil man his thoughts. Let him turn to the Lord, and he will have mercy on him, and to our God, for he will freely pardon.

Romans 2:4

4Or do you think lightly of the riches of His kindness and tolerance and patience, not knowing that the kindness of God leads you to repentance?

Acts 17:30

In the past God overlooked such ignorance, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent.

James 5:19-20

19My brethren, if any among you strays from the truth and one turns him back, 20let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save his soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins.

Revelation 3:3

3‘So remember what you have received and heard; and keep it, and repent Therefore if you do not wake up, I will come like a thief, and you will not know at what hour I will come to you

Acts 2:38

38Peter said to them, “Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

2 Timothy 2:19 

“The Lord knows those who are his,” and “everyone who confesses the name of the Lord must turn away from wickedness.”

Acts 3:19

“Repent, then, and turn to God, so that your sins may be wiped out, that times of refreshing may come from the Lord.”

———

There are many many many verses here for you Roger regarding sin and repentance of sin and the preaching of repentance of sin.  Repentance  of sin through Jesus Christ is the foundation of the Gospel. 

You preach another message, one that tries to obliterate the foundation, the foundation that is Jesus Christ.  If you think that telling someone to repent of their sin is an insult then you are saying that Jesus is NOT the mediator between man and God.  By saying this you are saying that Jesus Christ who died for us so that His blood will wash away our sin for those who believe is a lie, usless or an insult – By that one paragraph you have completely removed Jesus Christ out of the picture. 

You hold your head high, all smug, that you and your future campers, “Now get a chance to create something new”.  Well, New’s flash!  You are not creating anything new, this is ancient knowledge already, just being made known – like a secret that comes out of the closet.  Since the beginning of time Satan has been trying to remove Jesus Christ in any which way he can.  If I am not mistaken he probably has a patent on the design.  So run along now and stop trying to re-invent the pentegram and say you had something to do with it. 

You are a youth pastor are you not?  When I was listing the countless verses above I came across this one below and I felt terribly sorry for you.  So here is the Gospel of Jesus Christ.   Roger, repent of your sin, get on your knees before Jesus Christ the Son of God whom you INSULT and beg Him for forgiveness.  Your life is in HIS hands.  Not the other way around.

Mark 9:42

42 Whoever causes one of these little ones who believe to stumble, it would be better for him if, with a heavy millstone hung around his neck, he had been cast into the sea.

 

More...

66 comments to Ee-mmergency! Releasing Christian Youth Into The Fire!

  • Hi Danie,

    Just so that you know the left hand menu system isn’t coming up on my browser (chrome) and I can’t see where the blogrolls disappeared to.

    Interesting article above. Um, not exactly patient or longsuffering though. Did you do all the research on repentance yourself?

    What’s the acronym SACLA for?

    Mark

  • Discerning the World

    Mark

    Who is Danie?
    Use Firefox
    Research on repentance comes from the Bible.
    Blogroll was under construction and become ‘recommended’
    How patient do you have to be when it comes to telling someone to repent? 1 week? 1 year? 5 years? Just keep building that relationship until oneday…? Never?
    Those names(books) with numbers behind them are called bible verses
    SACLA is something Roger came up with. Quite frankly it makes no different in my life what it means.

  • Discerning the World

    Mark

    Ahh I see you are acquinted with Steve Khanya. He is Rogers ‘mentor’ or whatever. In fact I wrote an article about Steve who lumped born again Christians to the same category as those who started Inquisitions.

    See above under RELATED POSTS FOR: Born Again Christians are Now Compared to Inquisitors of the Inquisitions

  • Roger Saner

    SACLA stands for “South African Christian Leadership Assembly”. Its convenors are Dr Michael Cassidy, Bishop Lunga ka Siboto and Rev Moss Ntlha. The first time is was held was in 1979, and the second time was in 2003.

    From the (www.sacla.za.net/public_html/3whossaclafor.htm)

    This is just the second time the Church in South Africa has been called together to an assembly of this nature, the last one in 1979 contributed significantly to the miracle of the peaceful transition to full democracy in our beloved country. So, just as the Church played a key role in the political transformation of South Africa, the intention of SACLA 2003 is to challenge, enable and mobilise Christian leaders so that the Church in South Africa will fulfil its role in building the nation and extending the Kingdom of God.

    Change Agents was the result of the youth track of SACLA, and a desire to provide training to youth leaders. It’s supported by African Enterprise, YFC, Heartlines and Scripture Union.

    I didn’t “come up with” SACLA. I don’t run Change Agents either. It was my pleasure to be a part of the leadership team for a number of years, but my last input into the group (run by a group of diverse Christians) was last year. I currently host the website.

    It doesn’t surprise me that Discerning the World didn’t do any basic research – facts aren’t important, only little attention-grabbing snippets that prove that all other Christians who don’t toe the line with the DTW theology are apostate. The only reason I’m mentioned here is my statement:

    Plus, we’re surrounded with enough people in poverty for whom “Stop sinning and follow God” is almost an insulting statement. What good does it do to tell someone they have life with God after they die, but do nothing to help them now? We suspect that this story is more self-serving and although clothed in the appearance of the Gospel, is not the Gospel.

    There is context to this statement, which I stand by, and which I’ll be happy to explain to anyone who’s interested.

    For the record, DTW did not try to contact me in person before posting this entry.

  • Roger Saner

    What a pity, I was hoping for a Christmas card. Maybe I’ll get one anyway, but only for the next 3 years, because that’s when Jesus is coming back, apparently.

  • Roger Saner

    DTW: Ah, I appreciate you changing your blog post to read “Change Agents is/was run by Roger Saner” which is a step in the right direction (your first claim was that I ran it), but still not true. I have never run Change Agents, but was part of the leadership team. According to your Rules, you want to direct your readers into truth, and do not tolerate blatant lying. Therefore, will you retract/change your statement that I ran Change Agents?

    I notice you’ve also updated your blog post to include points of fact which I wrote in my #comment-1148 (first comment). It’s standard practice on blogs to write [UPDATE: Changed to reflect blah blah blah] when editing, so that readers know what was originally written and what was edited (helps keep the conversation accurate, ya know).

  • Discerning the World

    Roger

    Change Agents, One World Agents, New Age Agents, Amahoro Agents, Ecumenical Agents…same context different wording.

    “Plus, we’re surrounded with enough people in poverty for whom “Stop sinning and follow God” is almost an insulting statement. What good does it do to tell someone they have life with God after they die, but do nothing to help them now? We suspect that this story is more self-serving and although clothed in the appearance of the Gospel, is not the Gospel.”

    Um, we get the context Roger…

    For the record. I will never contact you in person. So if anyone does, it’s not me. Promise!

  • AdMo

    Dear Rogerrrrrr (Mr truthful himself)

    I am in the process of making amandements (and putting a ‘note’) as for the rest of what you said. I have 14 pages open tying to get images back online. And having to make notes in other places where comments went missing. *yawn*

    You should be more worried about what God thinks about your comment “Stop sinning and follow God” is almost an insulting statement””
    than worrying about who was the head cheerleader sorry team leader for change agents.

  • Roger Saner

    AdMo: thanks for making the correction. I’d be happy to explain my comment to you, but I’m afraid that if you have the same mode of engagement as DTW, all you bother to do is point fingers without wanting to understand where the person is coming from. If you’re different, I’ll be happy to engage.

  • Roger Saner

    Lol, you crack me up, Discerning the World! Everything else aside, you have a pretty snarky sense of humour which I’ve grown to appreciate. ::wipes tears from eyes::

    Re: me “trying to convert” AdMo – I *actually* said, “I’ll be happy to engage [with you].” Engagement = conversion in your world? No wonder you don’t want to talk!

    To respond to your comment, “you did not say anything about any of the verses I mentioned on repentance of sin” – you’re quite right, I haven’t. Last time I checked, this website wasn’t about those people you accuse of being apostate responding to you. From your perspective, you exist to point out error, pointing people to the Bible, and then you move on. You don’t care about responses or about any kind of ongoing engagement (katartizo, anyone?).

    If this were to change, I’d reconsider saying something about those verses you mentioned on repentance of sin. Until then, I’ll continue counting the days (3-and-a-half years is it?) until the NWO starts killing Christians (oh, and on the off chance that you are wrong about that, how about a friendly bet? If you and I are still alive and on this planet in 3-and-a-half years + 1 day, will you fulfill my wildest dreams and meet me for coffee? Nothing would make me more excited!).

  • Roger Saner

    And therefore, given that you believe me to be a trickster, what am I left to say?

    The reason I avoided commenting on the verses is, oh forget it – I’ve already said why.

  • Discerning the World

    Roger

    Regarding AdMo and trying to convert him. He says quote/unquote – I am doing the typing here by the way.

    *I am sorry I can’t take your call right now, you are number 4,700,001 in the queue. Please be patient, you call will be attended to shortly. You are more than welcome to hold on. Calls charged at R7,50 per minute*

    *bad elevator music*

    *please be patient, your call will be attended too shortly – you are now 4,700,032 in the queue.*

    *bad elevator music*

    *We ask that if this is technical support, please make sure you have read and understand the instruction manual – Old and New Testaments. Any tampering with the sticker on the back will break any guarantees. Warning! DO NOT try and rewire the device in any other manner other than that as described in the manual. This will cause a short circuit and lead to electrocution.*

    *bad elevator music*

    *You are number 4,700,045 in the queue*

    Hey he said it, not me. Gosh he cracks me up.

  • Discerning the World

    Roger

    PS, you did not say anything about any of the verses I mentioned on repentance of sin. Come now, pick one, any one…say something. I sit here in suspense! And don’t go reading Rob Bell or Brian McLaren to see what they have to say. Ah wait you can’t, they only use like the cool, hip verses – women at wells and stuff.

    Wonder if there is the “RBR KJV” – Rob Bell Reduced verson of the KJV. 5 pages. Short, sweet and right to the point – All religions lead to the same God.

    I hope he is not reading this, if he takes my idea I will have to charge him Royalities.

    You know, I definately think, that a wide angle snapshot on powerpoint, of a mock up of the coming reduced bible for those who don’t like to read long stuff would be great. And I am sure Zondervan would just jump at this.

    Save paper! Save printing ink! Lowers our carbon footprint! WOW! Save the World! AND you don’t have to repent! What a bonus!

  • Discerning the World

    Roger:

    >> (3-and-a-half years is it?)

    Not sure, anything is possible… But you are more than welcome to read this book called Revelations, actually start at Matthew. If you made it through reading Lord of the Rings 5 times then Revelations might just be up your alley. Difference is LotR is a lie and the Bible is Truth – Jesus Christ is the Way, the TRUTH and the Life,

    Nice try regarding the verses. You should have started with that from comment 1.5 already, because that was the most important part. But you avoided that part like a plague. But if you want you can still go ahead and give your reason why telling someone to repent of sin and be born again is an insult (no matter what their situation is).

    If I didn’t know you to be a ‘trickster’ I might actually believe what you say…but thankfully for me and sorryyyy 4 you, I don’t.

  • Pooh Bear

    I thought I’d add my 2 cents worth as I happened to attend Change Agents 2 years ago, and I have to disagree with this article! The weekend was a really good one, with young Christians from all over the country, coming together to learn, share, worship and connect, and there was a genuine focus on Christ. It was not subversive in any way (as implied by DTW, “and stop trying to change it using brainwashed little ‘change agents'”). I’ve been to many church/youth camps and this one was one of the most equipping and positively challenging that I’ve been to. Some of the activities that were planned for us were really helpful- making us more conscious of keeping God at the center of every day life. They also helped in making us more aware of how we can be more than just “Sunday Christians”. So I was rather surprised to see such criticism of change agents. Can whoever wrote that article tell me what the basis was for these negative views of a positive event?

  • Discerning the World

    The article is about Emergents (Change Angents) as a New Age ‘Christian’ organisation.
    The comment made my Roger Saner is just one of the many beliefs of Emergents.
    Roger was team leader for Change Angents

    I see you completely ignored the main focus of the article, where Emergents don’t believe in repentance of sin, and the bible as the World of God made Flesh (Jesus Christ).

    What do you think I mentioned all those verses for? *sighs*

  • Pooh Bear

    Ok, then it was a little disjointed as Roger’s comments and Change Agents are two separate debates. Change Agents had absolutely nothing New Age about it. Wiki says the New Age: “seeks “Universal Truth” and the attainment of the highest individual human potential. It combines aspects of cosmology, astrology, esotericism, alternative medicine, music, collectivism, sustainability, and nature. New Age spirituality is characterized by an individual approach to spiritual practices and philosophies, while rejecting religious doctrine and dogma.” Honestly, there was nothing like this at the Change Agents weekend. I’m happy to discuss Roger’s quote as a separate thread, but I don’t see how it relates.

  • Pooh Bear

    A second point I’d like to make is that I made some good friends on that weekend, learned quite a bit, was inspired, and it was really good to see the ethnic/racial unity there! So my question is, do you really think it’s helpful to dissuade people from attending such weekends? I think we need a lot more of these in SA, because if the church can’t get it (unity etc) right, how can we expect to see change in the rest of the country? It begins at home, and that’s what Change Agents recognizes.

  • Roger Saner

    You see, DTW, you can’t just come in and make unsubstantiated claims about a conference you were never at and expect people to ignore everything you get wrong and only respond to that which you want them to respond to.

    I know that’s a completely new way for you to think, and it might be a bit hard. So try this: separate me (whom you have lots of problems with) from Change Agents (which you misrepresent). Apologise for saying that Change Agents is about brainwashing people. Then, create a separate post about me and my offensive quote.

    It’s not a lot to ask. For the sake of truth and accuracy, and of knowing your enemy (at least get THAT right!).

    Because, unfortunately for you, there are going to be people who find this post, read what you said, and say, “Wait a second, I was AT Change Agents, and it’s nothing like DTW says it’s like!” The truth will out, even if it’s Pooh.

    And if you do that, then I’ll tell you why I made that statement.

    Seems easy enough. Deal?

  • Discerning the World

    lol, no Roger… Change Agents, Amahorror are Emergent (anti-Gospel) and you who were part of both. You believe that repentance of sin is a no no. And so does the Emergent ‘dialogie’. So no…nice try. I don’t care who hugged who and how many cups of coffe were drunk at these camps. Jim Jone’s followers thought their outings were great too until they found themselves dead. In other worlds: secure surroundings and making friends does NOT MAKE WHAT IS BEING TAUGHT THERE TRUE. It’s about the message that is preached at these places under the disguise of Christianity. And the message Emergents preach is NOT the message of Jesus Christ but a new message of something terribly sinister.

    Regarding your statement. We understand what you said Roger, it’s plain for all to see. You can’t wiggle your way out of it. The Bible verses I quote cut through your statement in every way, matter how you try to explain it.

  • Roger Saner

    What’s that? DTW ignored some clear points and requests for clarification, and picks up on the only thing she can possibly disagree on in Pooh’s comment? Where you *could* have answered something, you chose not to. As a dear critic of mine likes to say: “Swimming, swimming, just keep swimming…”

    Go on, DTW, confirm that your logic is indeed the following:
    1) Emerging church = New Age (
    2) Roger = an emerging church proponent
    3) Roger was involved in change agents
    Therefore Change Agents = New Age!

    I double-chocolate-milkshake dare you!!!

  • Pooh Bear

    DTW, with all due respect, I feel like you’re picking out bits of what I say, shredding those, and in so doing, missing the point I’m making. First of all, you can’t clump CA,Amahoro and Emergent together (by the way, “Emergent” and “Emerging” are not necessarily the same). Change Agents wasn’t about listening to one guy preaching his views the whole weekend. It was a collection of varied talks, activities, videos, dialogues etc, which were geared to make us think about the same truths in a fresh way, and to go out and live it out in a way that makes us more effective “God-agents” (if you will) in this post-modern society!

    Second, you haven’t substantiated your claim that CA is “New Agey”. I don’t find your logic sufficient. Basically you’re saying (and please correct me if I’m wrong):
    1) Emerging church = New Age (
    2) Roger = an emerging church proponent
    3) Roger was involved in change agents
    Therefore Change Agents = New Age!

    Finally, I did not say it was a good weekend only because I made friends. That list of positives that I mentioned was an outworking of an event that was geared for change – changing the individual, changing groups, changing society etc.

    Can you demonstrate what you think the message of Change Agents was? I never once heard any teachings that you claim were taught there. By the way, is this article about Change Agents or about Roger, because it seems you keep going back to Roger, without mentioning CA at all!

    I would actually like to move on to discussing Roger’s quote, but I feel we need to clear up this misconception about CA first. Please would you be so kind as to address the three points I’ve made here, and note that I’m not attacking you in any way. I’m not trying to change your mind or your views – I simply want to have a reasonable discussion with you, and I’m happy to concede on any of these issues if you can substantiate your claims.

  • Discerning the World

    Poor Bear

    >> First of all, you can’t clump CA, Amahoro and Emergent together (by the way, “Emergent” and “Emerging” are not necessarily the same). Change Agents wasn’t about listening to one guy preaching his views the whole weekend. It was a collection of varied talks, activities, videos, dialogues etc, which were geared to make us think about the same truths in a fresh way, and to go out and live it out in a way that makes us more effective “God-agents” (if you will) in this post-modern society!

    All rightyyyyy then. Well…um… I am not sure how to answer this except to say. I think there are a million Emergents who would disagree with you on that. lol. In fact I think Brian McLaren is very upset that you don’t know what Emergent means. He has written tons of books trying to explain it. Why don’t Emergents understand their own dialogue – Gosh, that’s a good title for a book.

  • Pooh Bear

    *Sigh* DTW, you just did it again. The only thing you responded to was my “by the way” in brackets!! I was referring to this comment from Wiki, “Some have noted a difference between the terms ’emerging’ and ‘Emergent.’ Whilst emerging is a wider, informal, church-based, global movement, Emergent refers to an official organization, the Emergent Village, associated with Brian McLaren, and has also been called the ‘Emergent stream.'” We can discuss that too, but please let’s first finish discussion ONE!

    (From now on I’m going to try and leave out anything that does not directly pertain to my point. Oops, maybe I shouldn’t have said this).

    Let me rephrase my previous post in 3 simple questions:
    1) Just because Roger was part of CA, does that make it emergent/emerging?
    2) Can you show me ONE example of how CA is New Age?
    3) What do you think is the central message given at a Change Agents weekend?

    I would be grateful if you could answer these three questions. Thanks!

  • Discerning the World

    Poor Bear and Roger

    Instead of referring to Wiki as your source of information, please use the Word of God instead. New Age/Occult/Emergent = all oppose the Word of God

    1 Timothy 4:1
    1 But the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons,

    Colossians 2:8
    8 See to it that no one takes you captive through philosophy and empty deception, according to the tradition of men, according to the elementary principles of the world, rather than according to Christ.

    1 Corinthians 3:18
    18 Let no man deceive himself If any man among you thinks that he is wise in this age, he must become foolish, so that he may become wise.

  • Discerning the World

    Roger

    >> I double-chocolate-milkshake dare you!!!

    What are you daring me for? Of course you are, CA is, Amahorror is, Brian McLaren is, your friend Nic is (who believes that Jesus Christ and Satan are one and the same). I’ve said this many times.

    And seeing that I have said it many times, your time is up…for now :)

  • Pooh Bear

    DTW, you are a master of boxing! Quite impressive actually. So with your reasoning, Change Agents=Buddhism=Islam=New Age=Science=Art=Emergent=Roger Saner=Hinduism=Robert Mugabe ?!?!

    Quoting verses does not prove your point. I believe in the Bible, and the same verses you do, but I don’t believe these things are all New Age.

  • Discerning the World

    Pooh Bear

    >> Quoting verses does not prove your point. I believe in the Bible, and the same verses you do, but I don’t believe these things are all New Age.

    John 14:23-24
    23 Jesus answered and said to him, “If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our abode with him.
    24 “He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine, but the Father’s who sent Me.

    Lastly…I had no idea Robert Mugabe was a Hindu.

  • Pooh Bear

    DTW, you give me the impression you don’t care about what I say, and you’re not interested in listening to my point. It makes feel like this is a futile discussion, but I have this glimmer of belief that somewhere deep down, behind the facade of quoting Bible verses to avoid engagement, there is some ability to reason, discuss and listen to someone else’s point of view, in a civilized manner. Are you going to prove me wrong in your reply??

  • Discerning the World

    Ah so quoting biblical verses which were written by God to you is uncivilized? Which god would you prefer to hear from then?
    This is a blog were the Word of God will be quoted at all times, as Jesus Christ the Son of God is the FINAL AUTHORITY on all matters.

    2 Timothy 3:16
    16 All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness;

    If you don’t like what you hear, then move on…

  • Pooh Bear

    You’re a classic!!

  • Discerning the World

    Apparently it’s also called Fundamentalist

  • One

    Prov. 29:9 If a wise man has an argument with a fool,
    the fool only rages and laughs, and there is no quiet.

    James 1:26   If anyone thinks he is religious qand does not bridle his tongue but deceives his heart, this person’s religion is worthless.

    1Cor. 13:1- 3   If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal. And if I have prophetic powers, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. If I give away all I have, and if I deliver up my body to be burned, but have not love, I gain nothing.

    Matt. 23:13   “But woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you oshut the kingdom of heaven in people’s faces. For you neither enter yourselves nor allow those who would enter to go in. 15 Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you travel across sea and land to make a single proselyte, and when he becomes a proselyte, you make him twice as much a child of hell as yourselves.

    Matt. 23:25   “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you clean the outside of the cup and the plate, but inside they are full of greed and self-indulgence.

    It is painfully obvious that you have purposefully chosen to misunderstood Roger’s statement and your intention is to engage in a Pharisaical debate.

  • Pooh Bear

    But surely fundamentalists still need to engage in discussion, instead of just quoting Scripture. Do you think I don’t know/believe those verses? Come on.. talk to me :-)

  • Discerning the World

    Even Satan knows and believes in Scripture so what’s your point?

    Luke 4:9-13
    9 And he led Him to Jerusalem and had Him stand on the pinnacle of the temple, and said to Him, “If You are the Son of God, throw Yourself down from here;
    10 for it is written, HE WILL COMMAND HIS ANGELS CONCERNING YOU TO GUARD YOU,’
    11 and, ON their HANDS THEY WILL BEAR YOU UP, SO THAT YOU WILL NOT STRIKE YOUR FOOT AGAINST A STONE.'”
    12 And Jesus answered and said to him, “It is said, ‘YOU SHALL NOT PUT THE LORD YOUR GOD TO THE TEST.'”
    13 When the devil had finished every temptation, he left Him until an opportune time.

    Don’t believe all who profess the name of Jesus:

    Matthew:7: 15-23
    15 “Beware of the false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly areravenous wolves. 16″You will know them by their fruits. Grapes are not gathered from thorn bushes nor figs from thistles, are they? 17″So every good tree bears good fruit, but the bad tree bears bad fruit. 18″A good tree cannot produce bad fruit, nor can a bad tree produce good fruit. 19″Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20″So then, you will know them by their fruits. 21″Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter. 22″Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?’ 23″And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.’

    To get me to stop quoting scripture and dialogue with you using philosophy and worldly wisdom?

    Colossians 2:6-10
    6 Therefore as you have received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk in Him, 7 having been firmly rooted and now being built up in Him and established in your faith, just as you were instructed, and overflowing with gratitude. 8 See to it that no one takes you captive through philosophy and empty deception, according to the tradition of men, according to the elementary principles of the world, rather than according to Christ. 9 For in Him all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form, 10 and in Him you have been made complete, and He is the head over all rule and authority;

    You don’t want me to quote scripture because the Word of God is a discerner of the your thoughts and intents of the heart

    Hebrew 4:11-12
    Let us therefore be diligent to enter that rest, lest anyone fall according to the same example of disobedience. For the word of God is living and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the division of soul and spirit, and of joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

  • Pooh Bear

    Clever tactic- make an accusation, allow people to respond, but then quote verses until they get fed up and then it looks like you’ve won the argument, you feel better about yourself, the evil “satan-worshippers” leave you alone, and you can continue to make generalized judgements about anything and everything you don’t agree with! All I’m asking you is to justify your wild claims without just sticking a verse in place of a clear argument. It makes it look like you don’t have an answer, so you hide behind some unrelated verses. It’s an easy way out, but you’re putting up an unnecessary wall between yourself and a fellow believer!

    [DTW made comments in bold next too Pooh Bears questions….]

    >> ….then quote verses until they get fed up and then it looks like you’ve won the argument

    Reading verses from the bible should never make anyone remotely upset if they are truly Christian. It does however offend an unbeliever

    Let me address your comments (take note, this is from, “How-to-respond-to-a-blog-post Lesson 101″):
    1) >>”Even Satan knows and believes in Scripture so what’s your point?”
    Umm, hang on, what exactly is YOUR point? You’ve just proven that quoting verses is pointless! (Great, now that you have confirmed that quoting scripture is pointless, lets move on…)

    2) >>”Don’t believe all who profess the name of Jesus:”
    So how do we know we can trust anything you say? (Because I love the Word of God, and you don’t- see point 1 where God and His Word is useless – remember Jesus Christ is the Word made Flesh, so if the Word is poinless so is Jesus Christ and His Father)

    3)>> “I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS”
    Are you accusing me of practicing lawlessness? (No, the Word of God is, it’s your choice to listen to the Bible though.)

    4) >>”To get me to stop quoting scripture and dialogue with you using philosophy and worldly wisdom?”
    No, you’re welcome to quote scripture where relevant! I’ll do the same if it’s necessary, but when I ask you a question and you answer it with a verse, that’s not a discussion. So what’s the point of a blog-site? You may as well just delete all these blogs and just have the Bible here. (You can’t quote scripture to suit yourself when necessary because scripture is pointless…as you said)

    5) >>”You don’t want me to quote scripture because the Word of God is a discerner of the your thoughts and intents of the heart”
    Really? And what are the intents of my heart? (God knows your heart, I do not. Read properly)

    6) >> Hebrew 4:11-12
    I fully agree! The word of God is living and powerful. So, “COME, LET US REASON TOGETHER” Isaiah 1:18
    (See point 1 were scripture as per you in pointless – so you can’t quote scripture)

  • Discerning the World

    Pooh Bear

    You contradict yourself. You can’t tell me that quoting scripture is pointless and then quote scripture to me.

    Everything on this blog will answer all your questions regaring what is New Age occult teaching. I can’t convince you that anything is new age if you don’t want to see it. If you don’t love scripture (which you have said is uncivilised and pointless) then trying to reason with you is….pointless! Your main aim is to persuade me and this is not going to happen. There are enough warning signs out there, if you choose to ingore the warning signs then there is nothing I can do. I do not dialogue with Emergent / New Age adherents. There is nothing you can say that the Word of God has not covered in FULL. All your answers are in there, go read it.

  • cecilia

    Roger Saner

    You said on September 4th, 2009 at 11:08 am to DTW “I’ll be happy to engage [with you]. Engagement = conversion in your world? No wonder you don’t want to talk!”

    It’s because of this comment that I did this short research on the “word-games” RS and other learned people often employ. This might help take other readers’ confusion away when they stumble upon this “word-game” – cecilia

    Talk
    (noun) talk, talking
    an exchange of ideas via conversation ;
    (verb) talk, speak
    exchange thoughts; talk with;
    > exchange thoughts; talk with; express in speech; an exchange of ideas via conversation; speak: use language; discussion; spill: reveal information; etc.

    communicate
    (verb) communicate, pass on, pass, pass along, put across
    transmit information; Communication is the process of transferring information from one source to another. Communication is commonly defined as “the imparting or interchange of thoughts, opinions, or information by speech, writing, or signs”.

    reason
    (verb) argue, reason
    present reasons and arguments
    (verb) reason
    think logically

    conversation
    A conversation is communication by two, three, or more people but talking is only using the mouth, although you can also have conversations online, It is a social skill that is not difficult for most individuals.

    Converse
    carry on a conversation; a proposition obtained by conversion

    to engage
    To involve oneself or become occupied; participate: engage in conversation.

    Roger Saner you said on the September 4th, 2009 at 11:08 am to DTW – “You don’t care about responses or about any kind of ongoing engagement (katartizo, anyone?)”.

    I did a quick study about this D, but before presenting, EVERYONE – ALL THE BLOGGERS who use the “tactic” to “throw a stone into the bushes and wait to see what comes out”. I’ve read many of the ‘critics’ blogs, and some say openly to each other they just did it for the fun, to see what comes out. (I’ll search for it again if anyone wants the “proof” ! did not save it, it was not such a “nice” thing to read on one specific bloggers’ blog! “All should be careful to throw stones, least one is found to be in the same boat. [my saying.” C]

    Katartizo has a wide range of meaning, but one of the first we see in the New Testament is at Jesus’ calling of James and John to be disciples while they were “mending” their nets in the boat with their father Zebedee.’

    2 Cor 13:9,11 Your restoration is what we pray for. . . . Finally, brothers, rejoice. Aim for restoration, comfort one another, agree with one another, live in peace, and the God of love and peace will be with you (ESV).

    In Koine Greek, the verb form is katartizo, which in various translations is “be perfect” (KJV), be made perfect” (NIV), “aim for perfection” (NEB), “be made complete” (NKJV), “mend your ways” (RSV, JB), and “aim for restoration” (ESV).

    Rom 8:6-8 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. (7) Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. (8) So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

    We read that the carnal (human flesh) mind is at enmity with God, because the carnal mind will not submit to the law of God since our fallen human nature is completely corrupted with spiritual rebellion. The goal of the Katartizo process is to repair our brokenness and equip us to do God’s work. This can only occur when we yield to the law (divine order) of God and allow the Holy Spirit to carry out these functions. We are put back in right order when we allow the Holy Spirit to crucify our carnal nature.

    Its important we understand that our carnal mind is enmity with God. The carnal mind can express itself with an assortment of characteristics and qualities. Christians, by their actions, think that the carnal mind will only express itself with crude and base characteristics. But this ignorant mind-set is very dangerous, because the carnal mind can also be high-minded and noble. The carnal mind is very much alive in the Christian church through its high-minded (self righteous) and noble actions. The high-minded, noble carnal mind is as much at enmity with God and they who are crude and base.

    James 4:4 Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God.

    James taught us that friendship with the world is enmity with God. How much of our church liturgy and ritual is enmity with God? Its difficult fathom the seriousness associated with our yielding to the Katartizo process, since spiritual maturity can only occur when we are in the right order with God.

    It is worth it to read this whole documentation. The writer ends with an important conclusion: “Now we should see that the English concept of perfection is not a true biblical application. True biblical perfection is not a completed flawless product, but it’s a process we endure in order to become like our true divine master, Jesus Christ. Only at this point can we consider ourselves to be His disciples yielded to the Katartizo process.” http://www.jmbeatty.com/Being%20Perfect.htm

    Galatians 6:1 – “Brothers, if someone is caught in a sin, you who are spiritual should restore him gently.”

    -The key word in this Scripture is restore, which is the Greek word, katartizo (kat-ar-tid’-zo). It has the meaning of to mend what is broken or torn, to repair, to complete, to put in order, to adjust, to equip. The goal of katartizo is to make something or someone useful for its intended purpose. As it is used in Galatians 6:1, katartizo is the mending of broken people and restoring them to their original purpose as God intended.

  • Discerning the World

    One

    >> It is painfully obvious that you have purposefully chosen to misunderstood Roger’s statement and your intention is to engage in a Pharisaical debate

    Nah you can have your PHARISAICAL debate all by yourself and with yourself. But I will re-iterate the verses on REPENTANCE OF SIN and that it’s painfully clear that the Word of God shows Roger to be HORRIBLY incorrect in his thinking. See verses on Repentance of Sin. Let me quote them again incase you missed them.

    What is Sin?

    Romans 8:7 7 because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so

    Romans 8:3-4 3For what the Law could not do, weak as it was through the flesh, God did: sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and as an offering for sin, He condemned sin in the flesh, 4so that the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.

    Should we be concerend about Sin?

    Romans 6:23 23For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

    How does God view those who lead others into sin?

    Mark 9:42 42 Whoever causes one of these little ones who believe to stumble, it would be better for him if, with a heavy millstone hung around his neck, he had been cast into the sea.

    Consequences of sin:

    Death:
    Genesis 2:16-17 16The LORD God commanded the man, saying, “From any tree of the garden you may eat freely; 17but from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat from it you will surely die.”
    Man’s shame and fear towards God.

    Before the fall, Adam and Eve walked and talked with God. To us, how lucky they were. After they ate, they could not stand the sight of God, and felt ashamed in confronting God. To those who may take the Garden of Eden less literally than others, you can still see in yourself and others the shame of being around God when we know we’ve sinned.

    All mankind is now sinners:

    Romans 5:12-14 12Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned- 13for until the Law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law. 14Nevertheless death reigned from Adam until Moses, even over those who had not sinned in the likeness of the offense of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come.

    The Earth is also poisoned by sin.
    Genesis 3:17 17Then to Adam He said, “Because you have listened to the voice of your wife, and have eaten from the tree about which I commanded you, saying, ‘You shall not eat from it’; Cursed is the ground because of you; In toil you will eat of it.All the days of your life

    Romans 8:20-21 20For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it, in hope. 21that the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God.

    God’s wrath against sin:

    Mankind was kicked out of the Garden of Eden by God for sinning, and was prevented from returning. God hates sin, and it was a while before one’s sins could be dealt with in the Mosaic laws.

    Repentance of Sin is the only way to produce GOOD FRUIT:

    Matthew 3:8 8 “Therefore bear fruit in keeping with repentance;

    Repentance is a change of attitude and action, not just muttering:

    Luke 3:8 8“Therefore bear fruits in keeping with repentance, and do not begin to say to yourselves, ‘We have Abraham for our father,’ for I say to you that from these stones God is able to raise up children to Abraham.

    Restoration: Example, The Prodigal Son:

    Luke 15:21-22 21“And the son said to him, ‘Father, I have sinned against heaven and in your sight; I am no longer worthy to be called your son.’ 22“But the father said to his slaves, ‘Quickly bring out the best robe and put it on him, and put a ring on his hand and sandals on his feet; 23and bring the fattened calf, kill it, and let us eat and celebrate; 24for this son of mine was dead and has come to life again; he was lost and has been found.’ And they began to celebrate.

    Confess sin – Promise of Forgiveness:

    1 John 9-11 8If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us. 9If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar and His word is not in us.

    Repent Repent Repent:

    Luke 13:3 3“I tell you, no, but unless you repent, you will all likewise perish.

    Matthew 4:17 17 From that time Jesus began to preach and say, “Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.”

    Matthew 3:2 2 “Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.”

    Great commission / Good News was that:

    Mark 6:12 12They went out and preached that men should repent.

    Acts 2:38 38Peter said to them, “Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

    Proverbs 14:12 12There is a way which seems right to a man, But its end is the way of death.

    Temptation turns to sin:

    James 1:14-15 14But each one is tempted when he is carried away and enticed by his own lust.15Then when lust has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and when sin is accomplished, it brings forth death.

    Repent, TURN FROM YOUR WICKED WAYS:

    Ezekiel 18:23-31 23“Do I have any pleasure in the death of the wicked,” declares the Lord GOD, “rather than that he should turn from his ways and live? 24“But when a righteous man turns away from his righteousness, commits iniquity and does according to all the abominations that a wicked man does, will he live? All his righteous deeds which he has done will not be remembered for his treachery which he has committed and his sin which he has committed; for them he will die.25“Yet you say, ‘The way of the Lord is not right ‘ Hear now, O house of Israel! Is My way not right? Is it not your ways that are not right?26“When a righteous man turns away from his righteousness, commits iniquity and dies because of it, for his iniquity which he has committed he will die. 27“Again, when a wicked man turns away from his wickedness which he has committed and practices justice and righteousness, he will save his life. 28“Because he considered and turned away from all his transgressions which he had committed, he shall surely live; he shall not die.29“But the house of Israel says, ‘The way of the Lord is not right.’ Are My ways not right, O house of Israel? Is it not your ways that are not right? 30“Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, each according to his conduct,” declares the Lord GOD. “Repent and turn away from all your transgressions, so that iniquity may not become a stumbling block to you. 31“Cast away from you all your transgressions which you have committed and make yourselves a new heart and a new spirit! For why will you die, O house of Israel?

    Ezekiel 33:11 11 Say to them, ‘As I live!’ declares the Lord GOD, ‘I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that the wicked turn from his way and live Turn back, turn back from your evil ways! Why then will you die, O house of Israel?’

    Man’s ways contrast what God wants:

    Ephesians 4:17-24 17So this I say, and affirm together with the Lord, that you walk no longer just as the Gentiles also walk, in the futility of their mind, 18being darkened in their understanding, excluded from the life of God because of the ignorance that is in them, because of the hardness of their heart;19and they, having become callous, have given themselves over to sensuality for the practice of every kind of impurity with greediness.20But you did not learn Christ in this way,21if indeed you have heard Him and have been taught in Him, just as truth is in Jesus,22that, in reference to your former manner of life, you lay aside the old self, which is being corrupted in accordance with the lusts of deceit,23and that you be renewed in the spirit of your mind,24and put on the new self, which in the likeness of God has been created in righteousness and holiness of the truth.

    Ephesians 2:1-3 1And you were dead in your trespasses and sins, 2in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience.3Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest.

    Galatians 5:16 16 So I say, live by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the sinful nature.

    Matthew 5:28-29 “But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart. If your right eye causes you to sin, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to be thrown into hell.”

    Romans 8:5-9 Those who live according to the sinful nature have their minds set on what that nature desires; but those who live in accordance with the Spirit have their minds set on what the Spirit desires. The mind of the sinful man is death, but the mind controlled by the Spirit is life and peace; the sinful mind is hostile to God. It does not submit to God’s law, nor can it do so. Those controlled by the sinful nature cannot please God. You, however, are not controlled by the sinful nature but by the Spirit, if the Spirit of God lives in you

    Ephesians 5:15-17 Be very careful, then, how you live, not as unwise but as wise, making the most of every opportunity, because the days are evil. Therefore, do not be foolish, but understand what the Lord’s will is.

    Ephesians 5:8-10 For you were once in darkness, but now you are light in the Lord. Live as children of light (for the fruit of the light consists in all goodness, righteousness, and truth) and find out what pleases the Lord.

    James 1:25 25But one who looks intently at the perfect law, the law of liberty, and abides by it, not having become a forgetful hearer but an effectual doer, this man will be blessed in what he does.

    The Gift of God that comes with Repentance:

    1 Peter 2:2 Like newborn babies, crave pure spiritual milk, so that by it you may grow up in your salvation, now that you have tasted that the Lord is good.

    Psalms 119:104-105 I gain understanding from your precepts; therefore, I hate every wrong path. Your word is a lamp to my feet and a light for my path.

    Psalms 16:11You have made known to me the path of life; you will fill me with joy in your presence, with eternal pleasures at your right hand.

    2 Peter 1:3-4 3seeing that His divine power has granted to us everything pertaining to life and godliness, through the true knowledge of Him who called us by His own glory and excellence.4For by these He has granted to us His precious and magnificent promises, so that by them you may become partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world by lust.

    Romans 12:1-2 1Therefore I urge you, brethren, by the mercies of God, to present your bodies a living and holy sacrifice, acceptable to God, which is your spiritual service of worship. 2And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, so that you may prove what the will of God is, that which is good and acceptable and perfect.

    MORE Warnings:

    Isaiah 30:15 This is what the Sovereign Lord, the Holy One of Israel, says: “In repentance and rest is your salvation, in quietness and trust is your strength, but you would have none of it.”

    Philippians 3:19 Their destiny is destruction, their god is their stomach, and their glory is their shame. Their mind is on earthly things.

    2 Peter 2:21-22 It would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than to have known it and then to turn their backs on the sacred command that was passed on to them. Of them the proverbs are true: “A dog returns to its own vomit,” and “A sow that is washed goes back to wallowing in the mud.”

    Luke 9:62 62But Jesus said to him, “No one, after putting his hand to the plow and looking back, is fit for the kingdom of God.”

    How URGENT and IMPORTANT is repentance of sin?

    Isaiah 55:6-7 Seek the Lord while he may be found; call on him while he is near. Let the wicked forsake his way and the evil man his thoughts. Let him turn to the Lord, and he will have mercy on him, and to our God, for he will freely pardon.

    Romans 2:4 4Or do you think lightly of the riches of His kindness and tolerance and patience, not knowing that the kindness of God leads you to repentance?

    Acts 17:30 In the past God overlooked such ignorance, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent.

    James 5:19-20 19My brethren, if any among you strays from the truth and one turns him back, 20let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save his soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins.

    Revelation 3:3 3‘So remember what you have received and heard; and keep it, and repent Therefore if you do not wake up, I will come like a thief, and you will not know at what hour I will come to you

    Acts 2:38 38Peter said to them, “Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

    2 Timothy 2:19 “The Lord knows those who are his,” and “everyone who confesses the name of the Lord must turn away from wickedness.”

    Acts 3:19 “Repent, then, and turn to God, so that your sins may be wiped out, that times of refreshing may come from the Lord.”

  • Discerning the World

    C

    Rom 8:6-8 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. (7) Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. (8) So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

    We read that the carnal (human flesh) mind is at enmity with God, because the carnal mind will not submit to the law of God since our fallen human nature is completely corrupted with spiritual rebellion. The goal of the Katartizo process is to repair our brokenness and equip us to do God’s work. This can only occur when we yield to the law (divine order) of God and allow the Holy Spirit to carry out these functions. We are put back in right order when we allow the Holy Spirit to crucify our carnal nature.

    Its important we understand that our carnal mind is enmity with God. The carnal mind can express itself with an assortment of characteristics and qualities. Christians, by their actions, think that the carnal mind will only express itself with crude and base characteristics. But this ignorant mind-set is very dangerous, because the carnal mind can also be high-minded and noble. The carnal mind is very much alive in the Christian church through its high-minded (self righteous) and noble actions. The high-minded, noble carnal mind is as much at enmity with God and they who are crude and base.

    >> This can only occur when we yield to the law (divine order) of God and allow the Holy Spirit to carry out these functions. We are put back in right order when we allow the Holy Spirit to crucify our carnal nature.

    That’s it. And there is no Holy Spirit in the ramblings of emergents. This is why they can say the things they do, oppose the Word of God, oppose Jesus Christ the Son of God, but at the same time believe they have not done anything wrong. There is no Holy Spirit conviction in their lives. And without this there will never be in right order with God. The only one they are satisfying is the one who opposes the Word of God and loves it when they mock the Bible and those who hold onto Jesus Christ the ONLY Son of God as their TRUE Saviour.

    The bible said these days would come where we would be HATED for His (Jesus’) name sake. Also to note that it’ not the majority but the minority who will be hated. The entire world is following the fake Christ and they are all connected – the majority. There are few who are not and refuse too because of their love for Jesus Christ and His Word. I am one of those few who REFUSE to bow down to this fake Christ.

    I pray others reading this blog’s eyes are opened because they seek the truth as to what is really going on in the world. That they listen to the gentle voice of the Holy Spirit and wake up before it’s too late. People need to repent of their sinful lives, get in order with God, humble themselves before the ONE AND ONLY LIVING GOD who sent His ONLY BEGOTTEN SON JESUS CHRIST as a sacrifice BUT only for those who believe in HIM. If you BELIEVE, TRULY AND UTTERLY BELIEVE, with AL your heart that JESUS CHRIST IS who HE SAID HE IS- The WORDS in the Bible are JESUS CHRIST, JESUS CHRIST IS the World of GOD. You CAN NOT SEPERATE the two from one another. JESUS is the ONLY MEDIATOR between us and the FATHER.

    If Jesus Christ is seperated from the Word/Bible, then the ones who do the seperating are NOT following JESUS CHRIST THE SON OF GOD but a false Christ.

  • AdMo

    Pooh Bear you comments are being deleted. See rules and regulations. We are are not here to speak to you and hold your hand 24 hours of the day until such time that you are happy that we agree with you. If you think Change Agents are not new age, then you have nothing to worry about and neither does anyone else. You have been given enough space to air your new age one world views.

  • cecilia

    agreed D! what went through my mind when I send in that comment, was that a lot of these folk that feel we are attacking them and being hard, tread them unfairly, are judging them, etc. actually aren’t the “hurt” people in Gal. and others. they are many times proud, arrogant, heads high as to show they are just ‘the ones’, many times head knowledge and ‘Martha-like busy-ness’ etc. and that they point these scriptures to the ones who discern the wrong / wrong spirit etc. without looking to who they really are and what they really portray, not realizing that the scripture that supposedly should ‘protect’ them from ‘judgment’, actually don’t apply to them; because they ‘take the protection away’ by being who and delivering what they are and do. acknowledge: many of these folks DO do ‘good deeds’, but to what end? I once knew a pastor who knew the salvation message to such an extent that he ‘saved many people’, but when I asked him what salvation meant for him, he could not give me a reply! He stayed in ‘the business’ because that was his income! most often I find that it’s all about the money machine – having ‘a job’, enriching oneself, gaining recognition 4 oneself, being important, being noticed, etc. Scripture says: freely, freely you have received, now freely give (Matthew 10:8
    Heal the sick, raise the dead, cleanse those who have leprosy, drive out demons. Freely you have received, freely give). but the believers in Christ who give away books, cd’s, clothes, food, etc (unless they received it for free from others), are far in the minority. Nowadays it is the ‘game with words’. create uncertainty, you win half the game. It reminds me of a thesis I did long time ago about the power of words. It can disguise the real person in such a way that the motive seems more important than the speaker; and listeners in the end ignore the fact that ANY speakers’ words should be heard together with full recognition of the person’s life and actions. I’ve seen pastors and many times counselors giving ‘good advice’ and ‘doing good deeds’ whilst in their own lives they were adulterers, fornicators, haters of other races, etc. and in one case I was personally involved with – a woman abuser to the extent of ending her life here on earth.
    what ever happened to the words:
    Colossians 3:2 –
    Set your minds on things above, not on earthly things. and
    1 Peter 1:13 – [ Be Holy ] Therefore, prepare your minds for action; be self-controlled; set your hope fully on the grace to be given you when Jesus Christ is revealed.
    I praise the Lord God for a person such as you, not forgetting the others I know of, who has the ‘guts’ to step out and discern, and speak out, sometimes to the extent of ‘snatching others from the fire’. thanks Debs! cecilia

  • Pooh Bear

    I just want to say that I’m not a New Ager, and in fact, I have a
    personal relationship with Jesus Christ, and I believe He’s the son
    of God who died and rose again. As a believer, I have been trying to
    reason with you about Change Agents, and I realize you’re not
    prepared to listen. That’s fine- you’re entitled to your opinion. But
    at least let someone who reads this blog decide for themselves
    whether Change Agents is against God or not, by hearing both sides of
    it.

    I also don’t believe I’ve said anything that violates the rules of
    this site. If I’m wrong about that, I apologize. Either way, I’ll
    respect your wishes not to discuss this any further if you allow this
    comment to be posted.

    Grace & peace to you in His name

  • Roger Saner

    What’s the point in talking? 4 of my comments were deleted from this post; none of them violated your guidelines for posting. DTW, you’re not listening to me, so why should I listen to you? This is like a trying to have an adult conversation with a petulant 8 year old.

  • Discerning the World

    Pooh Bear

    You say you are not a New Ager but you believe and speak like they do. You say you have a personaly relationship with Jesus Christ but you have added EXTRA Biblical teachings to the bible. These extra Biblical teachings are New Age teachings. You can either believe what I say that what is taught at CA (unbeknown) to you is the basis of New Age teaching and do some research on mediation and the world connecting being New Age or you can carry on your merry way down the wide path. I honestly do not know your heart and I do not judge you. I do not save people, only Jesus Christ can open your eyes to what is going on around you. But I will tell you now that if you continue down this road without testing (that is by going directly to the Word of God and researching scripture on this matter) – what you have been taught at these places is opposing the Gospel of Jesus Christ and you are going to land in trouble.

    And if what I have just said to you is considered hate or being pharacitical or what-ever then so be it. I ask you to find out for yourself. God says we are all held reponsible for our decisions. So you or I will never be able to stand before God and say “oh, I did this and that, and followed this and that because I didn’t know any better.” Everything we need to know is right in the Word of God – no other books are needed, no other teachers, preachers are needed to teach us when you have the Holy Spirit in your life. Do you have the Holy Spirit in your life? Because without Him scripture will always be interpreted the way the world wants it to be interpreted which will lead people right into hell.

    So Pooh Bear, just as you have a choice to make, so does the rest of the world. You are either for Jesus Christ and the Gospel that has stood the test of time or you are for the new Jesus Christ who has ‘agents’ who preach a new gospel of world unity and all faiths leading to one God.

    So, that’s it. Nothing more I can do about this. I have other articles to write about. You are welcome to read them, or not. I write for people who care to know the truth and are seeking the truth. I am not the gospel, I am not the vessel for the Gospel either. I write based on personal experience, and then Jesus Christ saved me from death. I know what you are heading right into. I come from where you are going too and I turned back and ran for my life into Jesus Christs arms. And I have not left His side since.

    So from today you need to start thinking in earnest which gospel you want to follow. The new one for a new world, or the gospel that Jesus spoke 2000+ years ago. And note Roman Catholocism is NOT christian. They are an abomination unto the Lord. So any teachings you might hear from now on regarding meditation, lactio devina, walking labyrinths, mantras, breathing, Iggnation this and St whatsoever that is based on occult teaching and needs to be avoided like a plague.

    That’s all I have to say. I pray you make the right decision.

  • PGYFSF

    Hi DTW, you don’t have a name, so neither do I. With all due respect, your perspective on Change Agents is WAY OFF. Roger was a single member of a large leadership team made up of very solid Bible-believing Christian leaders who have a heart for youth pastors and leaders and want to better equip them to make authentic disciples of Jesus Christ and impact their communities with the gospel as recorded and exemplified in scripture. Here is a quote from a recent Change Agents document….

    Born out of SACLA 2003, Change Agents is a unique leading edge training process for pastors and leaders ministering to Southern Africa’s most fertile “mission field” – youth, young adults, and children. Developed by a network of experienced leaders with a passion for young people, Change Agents seeks to help every local church effectively engage emerging generations with the gospel of Jesus Christ, developing contextually relevant communities of authentic disciples who impact others through Spirit-led incarnational, holistic ministry. Our heart’s desire is to see the Church in South Africa glorify God by practicing the Great Commandments (Matthew 22:37-39), becoming “salt” and “light” in our various contexts (Matthew 5:13-16), and fulfilling the Great Commission (Matthew 28:18-20).

    Our core values are not merely ideals or goals we seek to achieve, but truths and choices that inform our ministry philosophy, underlie our decisions, guide our actions, and shape our lifestyles. As a leadership team, we are committed to…

    • Glorifying God in all that we do by submitting to the Lordship of Jesus, obeying God’s word as revealed in the scriptures, being led and empowered by the Holy Spirit, and pursuing God’s Kingdom purposes.

    • Being relevant for our time and context, engaging each subculture effectively with the word of God, modeling authentic Christian lifestyle and community, and confronting cultural values and practices which dishonour God and rob people of their God-given value and purpose.

    • Developing Bible-based discipleship communities that are contextually relevant, incarnational, and transformational.

    • Helping leaders reach their maximum potential in Christ by building intimacy with God, growing in Christian character, developing and exercising their spiritual gifts, and discovering and pursuing God’s purposes for their lives and church communities.

    • Cooperative efforts in the Body of Christ to proclaim the gospel more effectively, serve and uplift our communities, and address critical issues.

    • Serving as role models and mentors for emerging leaders

    • Practicing true Biblical leadership modeled on the person and practices of Jesus and informed by God’s written word.

    • Equity and fairness in all interaction with emerging Christian leaders, regardless of denominational affiliation, gender, race, age, and socioeconomic status.

    • Moral and financial integrity in all that we do and say

    • Sustained excellence and quality in our training, resources, and administration.

    • Wise stewardship and a high level of accountability

    I hope this rectifies your perspective. Sorry to disappoint you, but we are basically straight down the Biblical line when it comes to our beliefs and praxis.

    We encourage Change Agents participants to be like the Bereans and ‘examine the scriptures’ to see if what we teach is biblical. But more importantly, it is our desire that God’s word be practiced, especially by those in Christian leadership.

    With appreciation,
    PGYFSF (Please get your facts straight first)

    PS. We forgive you for misjudging us.

  • Bert Watson

    To the webmaster,
    My name is Bert Watson and I have been serving Jesus flat out since 1976. I am a senior member of the Change Agents Leadership Team. You seem to have completely misunderstood and misrepresented our leadership training ministry – and this on an international blog. Change Agents is a unique training process that seeks to inspire and equip church-based youth leaders to become more Christ-like, to engage emerging generations more effectively with the gospel, to make authentic disciples of Jesus Christ, and to impact their communities through Spirit-led incarnational, holistic ministry. The word of God is central to our ministry focus – no compromise. Change Agents is led by a cross-section of Christian leaders and endorsed by the South African Christian Leadership Assembly, The Evangelical Alliance of South Africa, the National Leadership Development Forum, Heartlines, Youth for Christ, Scripture Union, Leaders for Africa, J-Life, Walk thru the Bible, and local churches all over South Africa. If you have issues with Roger Saner, you are more than welcome to dialogue with him. However, if you believe in integrity, you will practice some of that repentance you talk so much about, correct your erroneous comments and associations, and remove Change Agents artwork from your blog. Better yet, delete this thread…, and, in the future, do some research before you dishonour your brothers and sisters in Christ. I am sure you do not wish to take sides with the ‘accuser of the brethren’.

    Yours in Christ,
    Bert Watson
    Director – Leaders for Africa
    Change Agents Leadership Team

  • Bert Watson

    And please be kind enough to correct my typo in line 1 if you choose to publish this. ‘having’ should be ‘have’. Thank you. BW

    [AdMo: Change made to correct typo]

  • Discerning the World

    Roger,

    What is the point with talking wish someone who has NO CLUE what-so-ever as to what New Age is, what occult is? You have no clue? So when I say it is, you will say no it isn’t and around we go. You side with people like Nic Paton who agrees that Jesus and Satan are one and the same (but will argue that this is not occult in any way).

    This is a Christian blog for genuine Christians WHO ARE SEEKING THE TRUTH, Christians who are caught up in stuff and they know something is wrong but can’t figure it out. This is not a blog for you Mr Wolf to come and drag a sheep off into your lair and then chew on their ears.

    Your whole statement of “you’re not listening to me, so why should I listen to you” sounds more like a comment of a 8 year old brainwashed by New Age teaching. I know what I believe in Roger. I know who my Jesus Christ is. I know that Jesus Christ and the Word of God are one and the same and that if you seperate the two you end up following an ‘angel of light’ disguised as a Jesus that is not Jesus Christ the Son of God

    I am not asking you to listen to me, I am asking you to listen to the what the Word of God says. And because you speak against the Word of God we will NEVER agree…so

    Matthew 10:14
    “Whoever does not receive you, nor heed your words, as you go out of that house or that city, shake the dust off your feet.

    Mark 6:11
    “Any place that does not receive you or listen to you, as you go out from there, shake the dust off the soles of your feet for a testimony against them.”

    Luke 10:11
    ‘ Even the dust of your city which clings to our feet we wipe off in protest against you; yet be sure of this, that the kingdom of God has come near.

  • Discerning the World

    PGYFSF

    DTW has made notes below in BOLD to answer PGYFSF/Bert’s comments

    • Glorifying God in all that we do by submitting to the Lordship of Jesus, obeying God’s word as revealed in the scriptures, being led and empowered by the Holy Spirit, and pursuing God’s Kingdom purposes.

    Oh well done, no one really understands what that means. 1 point for a concealed message.
    PS, The Holy Spirit is on the INSIDE of a born again Christian, not the outside and does not empower people – He is not a BEE inituative

    • Being relevant for our time and context, engaging each subculture effectively with the word of God, modeling authentic Christian lifestyle and community, and confronting cultural values and practices which dishonour God and rob people of their God-given value and purpose.

    relevant for our time = interpeting scritpure in a new way for the 21st centuary
    engaging each subculture effectively = with the new message that suits them all and tickles their ears,
    modeling authentic christian lifestlye and community = oh there is a manual, “how to be good” – are we are still trying to determine what ‘good’ means, ah feed the poor is one of them. Actually let’s discuss what GOOD means and don’t say following Jesus’s way. For HE was SINLESS, mankind is not.
    confronting cultural values and practices which dishonour God and rob people of their God-given value and purpose = huh??? I still aint heard about Salvation and repentance of sin…you know, the most important part.

    • Developing Bible-based discipleship communities that are contextually relevant, incarnational, and transformational.

    Speak English! contextually relevant? What hogwash is that? incarnational? oh…yes, and transformational – spoken like a true Emergent, nothing like developing a bunch of people into thinking this is the gospel of Jesus just because somewhere you mentioned the name Jesus. Well sorry for you, but I don’t buy it, cos I actually read the Bible.

    • Helping leaders reach their maximum potential in Christ by building intimacy with God, growing in Christian character, developing and exercising their spiritual gifts, and discovering and pursuing God’s purposes for their lives and church communities.

    Highest maximun potential in Christ? How many levels are there? 7 levels by any change? Does one stop when you have reached god level? (Or Alchemist level?)
    All this stuff you speak of is pureply from a human works perspective. You can’t do any of this without being born again and having the Holy Spirit abiding in you.
    You will never be like Jesus Christ or even close…we will remain pathetic little humans until we die and hopefully before that you have repented of your sin and realised that YOU need GOD. He doesnt need you.

    • Cooperative efforts in the Body of Christ to proclaim the gospel more effectively, serve and uplift our communities, and address critical issues.

    It’s the Holy Spirit who proclaims the gospel, not you. It the Holy Spirit who saves, not you. And you wont believe it, but the Word of God is the most EFFECTIVE tool to proclaim the gospel and address critical issues. Especially in situations where people come along dressed in sheeps clothes trying to hoodwink people into thinking that their little camps are there to teach the gospel when in fact it’s been rigged up for the sole purpose to preach lies DISGUISED as Christianity.

    • Serving as role models and mentors for emerging leaders

    eeeee-mmmmmmmmeeeeeeerrrrrrrrrrgggggggeeeeeeeennnnnnnnnnyyyyyyyyyyyyy – Men serving as role models? Men born into sin who try walking a good life based on worldly principles and values.

    • Practicing true Biblical leadership modeled on the person and practices of Jesus and informed by God’s written word.

    And pray tell where is being born again, and the Holy Spirit in any of this?? NO WHERE. So, you fail. Sorry – minus 1 point

    • Equity and fairness in all interaction with emerging Christian leaders, regardless of denominational affiliation, gender, race, age, and socioeconomic status.

    Oh yessss, gotta be equal and fair. Tell me do you think homosexuality is a sin?
    In fact let me ask an even easier question. Do you believe that it’s discriminatory to preach repentance of sin, wrath and hell for those who disobey God’s Word?? I mean it’s only God’s Words after all. We are not making this stuff up as we go along.

    • Moral and financial integrity in all that we do and say

    Oops, we are missing the most crucial factor here; Being born again and having the HOLY SPIRIT abide in you – The Holy Spirit is the only ONE that can convict one of what is right and wrong.

    • Sustained excellence and quality in our training, resources, and administration.

    Yes, we have to throw in some advertisting, without advertising you can’t hook new fish. By the way, what do you measure your excellence and quality against when you don’t use the bible as your plumbline?

    • Wise stewardship and a high level of accountability

    Wise? says who? Accountability? to who?

    I hope this rectifies your perspective. Sorry to disappoint you, but we are basically straight down the Biblical line when it comes to our beliefs and praxis.

    No, sorry to disappoint you, and no you are not in any way biblical, you are emergent, new age, with one world views.

    We encourage Change Agents participants to be like the Bereans and ‘examine the scriptures’ to see if what we teach is biblical. But more importantly, it is our desire that God’s word be practiced, especially by those in Christian leadership.

    The bible COMMANDS that ALL be like Bereans and examine the scriptures. You can’t practice anything without God’s Holy Spirit in your life. If you have no conviction, then what guides you? Your fleshly worldly self? And what’s the point of following the wrong gospel? Well… kinda silly really is it not.

    You want directions and when the Word of God tells you what they are you decide that it’s not culturally relevant for our time and go another way.

    With appreciation,
    PGYFSF (Please get your facts straight first)

    PGYFSF I’m going to change your acronym to IYUAFUMSYCYIAIYWTCAUAUTTCYFI which means: (If you use a fake username, make sure you change your IP address if you want to comment again under another username trying to conceal your fake identify)

    PS. We forgive you for misjudging us.

    PS, I forgive you for thinking I am stupid

  • Discerning the World

    Dear IYUAFUMSYCYIAIYWTCAUAUTTCYFI aka PGYFSF/Bert

    See below comment to PGYFSF (or you because you are the same person)

  • Amanda

    PGYFSF

    Glorifying God in all that we do by submitting to the Lordship of Jesus, obeying God’s word as revealed in the scriptures, being led and empowered by the Holy Spirit, and pursuing God’s Kingdom purposes.

    Do you agree that God’s kingdom is being established here on earth? Here is Roger’s statement:

    And equally, how do you get past this line in the Lord’s prayer – which the Church has conveniently forgotten over the last 200 years: “Your Kingdom come, on earth as it is in heaven.” That’s not an eschatalogical statement, that’s a prayer for it happening now. Inaugurated eschatalogy, if you want the technical term.

    Do you agree with this spirit-led statement Roger made?:

    If there is to be any peace in this world (and I hope I don’t have to make the case for why peace is a GOOD thing) then Christians and Muslims are going to have to figure it out. Not that that’s the only solution, but unless there is peace between these two great religions, the world will blow itself to smithereens.

    What about this one?

    The Emergent teaching (whatever that is) is not about all faiths leading to one God – I don’t know where you get that. I don’t know enough about the internal tensions with Islam and Buddhism to comment about them, but I know to judge them on the fruit they lead to, and one of the fruits of the spirit is peace. If a religion does not lead to peace, the Holy Spirit is not working within it. If your Christian faith does not lead you to be a peacemaker, same thing.

    Bert Watson

    The word of God is central to our ministry focus – no compromise.

    What does the Word of God say about the good, pious Muslim who diligently follows his religion?

    Roger

    This is like a trying to have an adult conversation with a petulant 8 year old.

    Or maybe it is talking enlightenment with somebody who does not meditate and who refuses to make that paradigm shift?

  • PGYFSF

    Dear DTW, the Sword cuts both ways. I used a pseudonym, actually an ‘initialism’, because you do. You are DTW – discerning the world. I am PGYFSF – please get your facts straight first. I was just following your example. Sorry if you thought I was trying to dupe you. You are obviously quite intelligent and, I believe, well-meaning. I do not think you are stupid. However, no matter what I say, you have clearly made up your mind, so I will not bother you anymore with the facts. As Paul prayed in 1 Thess 3:12-13, may the Lord cause all of us to increase and abound in love for one another, and for all people, so that He may establish our hearts without blame in holiness before our God and Father at the coming of our Lord Jesus with all His saints.

  • Discerning the World

    Oh dear Bert/PGYFSF (same person)

    My facts are stright. My name is on this blog. I am not a liar and of course you were sly – if your intentions were honest you would not have done what you did. I don’t care what your name is, I care though that you speak another gospel and another Christ and lead others astray.

    Regarding the new fake Christian gospel you teach, it is written in the Word of God:

    John 8:43-45
    43″Why do you not understand what I am saying? It is because you cannot hear My word.
    44″You are of your father the devil, and you want to do the desires of your father He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth because (G)there is no truth in him Whenever he speaks a lie, he (H)speaks from his own nature, for he is a liar and the father of lies.
    45″But because I speak the truth, you do not believe Me.

  • Discerning the World

    Oh and regarding this:

    >> And equally, how do you get past this line in the Lord’s prayer – which the Church has conveniently forgotten over the last 200 years: “Your Kingdom come, on earth as it is in heaven.” That’s not an eschatalogical statement, that’s a prayer for it happening now. Inaugurated eschatalogy, if you want the technical term.

    The Kingdom of God is Jesus Christ the Son of God. Jesus Christ came and established His kingdom in the hearts of men through His Holy Spirit (those who believe, those who accept Jesus Christ and are therefore saved).

    So whatever Christ you are still waiting for leaves very little to be desired. The one I await comes to bring JUDGEMENT to all mankind, the one you wait for comes in PEACE which is a lie.

    Jesus said, Matthew 10:34
    “Do not think that I came to bring peace on the earth; I did not come to bring peace, but a sword.”

  • Peter Veysie

    I am first of all hoping that you are a brother or sister in Christ and that your defence of the gospel is for the sake of Jesus and not because you are a very sad and irritated man or woman. I am also sad that we can’t chat to you because you are anonymous, but heh if you need some healing or someone to chat to you have my email address. I am heading up Change Agents in South Africa and am the Senior Pastor of Ridgeway Ministries and you are so far from the truth of what we do, it is frightening. Speak to me if you are brave enough and I will give you the truth and “the truth will set you free”. Pete

  • Discerning the World

    Peter

    Emergent dialogue is something that is really beginning to get on my nerves. Why must I chat to you all? So you can change my mind? Well understand this now and pass it along to all your friends, I am not going to change my belief in Jesus Christ the Son of God for your New Age Christ. Right, now that we have covered that…read my comments below. The only reason why I am expected by you lot to speak to you face to face is for you to CHANGE my thinking. If we are indeed bretheren in Christ then pray tell why we believe in two completely different gospels???

    >> Speak to me if you are brave enough and I will give you the truth and “the truth will set you free”.

    the Word of God is the truth, Jesus Christ is the way the truth and the life. Only He can give us the truth, Not you!

    These are the questions Bert/PGYFSF (same person) asked me and I replied beneath the bullet points:

    • Glorifying God in all that we do by submitting to the Lordship of Jesus, obeying God’s word as revealed in the scriptures, being led and empowered by the Holy Spirit, and pursuing God’s Kingdom purposes.

    Oh well done, no one really understands what that means. 1 point for a concealed message.
    PS, The Holy Spirit is on the INSIDE of a born again Christian, not the outside and does not empower people – He is not a BEE inituative

    • Being relevant for our time and context, engaging each subculture effectively with the word of God, modeling authentic Christian lifestyle and community, and confronting cultural values and practices which dishonour God and rob people of their God-given value and purpose.

    relevant for our time = interpeting scritpure in a new way for the 21st centuary
    engaging each subculture effectively = with the new message that suits them all and tickles their ears,
    modeling authentic christian lifestlye and community = oh there is a manual, “how to be good” – are we are still trying to determine what ‘good’ means, ah feed the poor is one of them. Actually let’s discuss what GOOD means and don’t say following Jesus’s way. For HE was SINLESS, mankind is not.
    confronting cultural values and practices which dishonour God and rob people of their God-given value and purpose = huh??? I still aint heard about Salvation and repentance of sin…you know, the most important part.

    • Developing Bible-based discipleship communities that are contextually relevant, incarnational, and transformational.

    Speak English! contextually relevant? What hogwash is that? incarnational? oh…yes, and transformational – spoken like a true Emergent, nothing like developing a bunch of people into thinking this is the gospel of Jesus just because somewhere you mentioned the name Jesus. Well sorry for you, but I don’t buy it, cos I actually read the Bible.

    • Helping leaders reach their maximum potential in Christ by building intimacy with God, growing in Christian character, developing and exercising their spiritual gifts, and discovering and pursuing God’s purposes for their lives and church communities.

    Highest maximun potential in Christ? How many levels are there? 7 levels by any change? Does one stop when you have reached god level? (Or Alchemist level?)
    All this stuff you speak of is pureply from a human works perspective. You can’t do any of this without being born again and having the Holy Spirit abiding in you.
    You will never be like Jesus Christ or even close…we will remain pathetic little humans until we die and hopefully before that you have repented of your sin and realised that YOU need GOD. He doesnt need you.

    • Cooperative efforts in the Body of Christ to proclaim the gospel more effectively, serve and uplift our communities, and address critical issues.

    It’s the Holy Spirit who proclaims the gospel, not you. It the Holy Spirit who saves, not you. And you wont believe it, but the Word of God is the most EFFECTIVE tool to proclaim the gospel and address critical issues. Especially in situations where people come along dressed in sheeps clothes trying to hoodwink people into thinking that their little camps are there to teach the gospel when in fact it’s been rigged up for the sole purpose to preach lies DISGUISED as Christianity.

    • Serving as role models and mentors for emerging leaders

    eeeee-mmmmmmmmeeeeeeerrrrrrrrrrgggggggeeeeeeeennnnnnnnnnyyyyyyyyyyyyy – Men serving as role models? Men born into sin who try walking a good life based on worldly principles and values.

    • Practicing true Biblical leadership modeled on the person and practices of Jesus and informed by God’s written word.

    And pray tell where is being born again, and the Holy Spirit in any of this?? NO WHERE. So, you fail. Sorry – minus 1 point

    • Equity and fairness in all interaction with emerging Christian leaders, regardless of denominational affiliation, gender, race, age, and socioeconomic status.

    Oh yessss, gotta be equal and fair. Tell me do you think homosexuality is a sin?
    In fact let me ask an even easier question. Do you believe that it’s discriminatory to preach repentance of sin, wrath and hell for those who disobey God’s Word?? I mean it’s only God’s Words after all. We are not making this stuff up as we go along.

    • Moral and financial integrity in all that we do and say

    Oops, we are missing the most crucial factor here; Being born again and having the HOLY SPIRIT abide in you – The Holy Spirit is the only ONE that can convict one of what is right and wrong.

    • Sustained excellence and quality in our training, resources, and administration.

    Yes, we have to throw in some advertisting, without advertising you can’t hook new fish. By the way, what do you measure your excellence and quality against when you don’t use the bible as your plumbline?

    • Wise stewardship and a high level of accountability

    Wise? says who? Accountability? to who?

    I hope this rectifies your perspective. Sorry to disappoint you, but we are basically straight down the Biblical line when it comes to our beliefs and praxis.

    No, sorry to disappoint you, and no you are not in any way biblical, you are emergent, new age, with one world views.

    We encourage Change Agents participants to be like the Bereans and ‘examine the scriptures’ to see if what we teach is biblical. But more importantly, it is our desire that God’s word be practiced, especially by those in Christian leadership.

    The bible COMMANDS that ALL be like Bereans and examine the scriptures. You can’t practice anything without God’s Holy Spirit in your life. If you have no conviction, then what guides you? Your fleshly worldly self? And what’s the point of following the wrong gospel? Well… kinda silly really is it not.

    You want directions and when the Word of God tells you what they are you decide that it’s not culturally relevant for our time and go another way.

  • Discerning the World

    Peter Veysie

    >> You said: I am first of all hoping that you are a brother or sister in Christ and that your defence of the gospel is for the sake of Jesus and not because you are a very sad and irritated man or woman. I am also sad that we can’t chat to you because you are anonymous, but heh if you need some healing or someone to chat to you have my email address. I am heading up Change Agents in South Africa and am the Senior Pastor of Ridgeway Ministries and you are so far from the truth of what we do, it is frightening. Speak to me if you are brave enough and I will give you the truth and “the truth will set you free”. Pete

    As you can clearly see my stand for the Gospel is for Jesus Christ and to WARN the people you lead astray with your NEW AGE Christian teaching which goes AGAINST the Gospel of Jesus Christ. I don’t need to chat to you face to face to know that you speak a false doctrine. Your smiling face will not hide the feelings you have, or the words that you speak that OPPOSE the gospel of Jesus Christ – unfortunately many will fall for it. But I warn never the less for those who are seeking the TRUTH (there is only ONE truth and that is Jesus Christ the Son of God – not your fasle Christ with many truths). And because they LOVE the Word of God, they will see through you and your new age rainbow bridge where all faiths lead to one god.

    See Interview by clicking link below: Peter Veysie is the Senior Pastor of Ridgeway Ministries, Rivonia, Gauteng, South Africa. He is busy with a Doctorate looking at “Bridging the Gap between today’s church and tomorrow’s world in an African urban Context”. His supervisors are Leonard Sweet and Christopher Peppler.

    Peter Veysie from Ridgeway Ministries trying to ‘Bridge’ that Gap

  • Michael Anthony

    D,

    Chris Roseborough from Pirate Christian Radio was a host on Crosstalk Christian Radio last week.

    http://www.crosstalkamerica.com/

    This has thus far been the most articulate expose of the emergent heresy and a explanation of what is driving their – well, we cant call it doctrines because they are a constant moving target – call it beliefs.

    Bob de Waay from Critical Issues Commentary http://cicministry.org/
    has also done a fantastic job at discernment on this issue. He has a book called ‘The Emergent Church, undefining Christianity’

    http://www.piratechristianradio.com/

    Just my 10 cents

  • Discerning the World

    Michael

    Ah yes, that reminds me I need to put Chris’ piratechristianradio banner back on my site. It was on my old site and just aint gotten around to doing it on this one.

    And thank you for those links. The emergent doctrine is as such – The quick version:

    Remove the Word from Jesus. Just follow Jesus. If you need instructions of some sort, come back to the Word (but leave Jesus out of it) sit around and discuss what a certain verse means. When you are all happy with the new meaning of the verse in your life, especially when it comes to concealing sin in your life then, retreat back into the real world to pass on this new mind blowing revelation and invite your new friends around for coffee to hug and dialogue.

    If evening was successful invite them to church on Sunday where there will be special guests coming to measure your carbon footprint – If it sounds stressful you should be stressed because we all emit enough carbon to blow this planet into smithereens any second now. But we have a remedy to de-stress: Contemplative prayer and a walk through a labyrinth. Once your mind has been cleared out, you can proceed to the kiddies play room for finger-painting. Don’t worry about tissues to clean your hands, just use the pages of your bible you brought with you.

    You are more than welcome to add your 10 cents at any time. I usually only add 2 cents cos the other 8 cents got lost somewhere….somewhere..

  • Discerning the World

    You see when I do my research on pastors and what they teach I do a good job of making sure my facts are as straight as a ruler!

    I get told Change Agents are great and wonderful and need to be featured on the up and coming “South Africa’s Got Talent” show. But the stuff I am reading on Change Agents’ associates websites tells a different story.

    What a surprise when Peter Veysie shows up. What a surprise when I find an interview he did on emergingafrica with a guy who believes that Satan and Jesus are one and the same. And Peter was not there to preach the gospel to him, repentance of sin through Jesus Christ…. Noooo no…no…

    So who needs another reality tv show when you can just come here for the next episode of:

    “These are the days of our emergent lies”
    …..oh sorry I mean ‘lives’.

    Peter Veysie from Ridgeway Ministries trying to ‘Bridge’ that Gap:

  • Amanda

    Michael Anthony, I’ll second that. It was a great program. Chris Rosebrough, Bob DeWaay and Ingrid Schlueter are doing sterling work for the Body of Christ, bless them.

    Here in South Africa we also have Sarel van der Merwe and Thomas over at Watch and Pray.

  • Michael Anthony

    Dear Change Agent

    By the very fact that you have chosen to use the term ‘change agent’ reveals naivety on your part and a lack of sensitivity to post-modern terms (and to those that actually study modern trends and cloaked socialist terms). Change in post-modernism means a ‘revolution’ which equates to this.

    Thesis (truth) + antithesis (an opposing idea) = synthesis.

    Simply put ‘change’ in the modern day church means synthesising clear biblical truths with post-modern thought where there are no absolutes. The result we get is this verbally fantastic nonsense that means whatever you want it to mean. Sprinkle it with words like jesus, culturally relevant, gospel, love, missional etc and you have what sounds like Christianity. The tolerance post-modernism teaches is totally intolerant to those that place the authority of scripture and accuracy of interpretation above all else. (That would be studying to show thyself approved and being led of the Holy Spirit).

    More Christ-like? Which Christ? The biblical one that says deny yourself, pick up your cross…? Or the modern, reinvented Christ? (Which one; cosmic jesus, christ consciousness, the only-love jesus, the socialist/revolutionary jesus, the universalist jesus, the dominionist jesus, the soppy, intimate, effeminate jesus, the end-world-poverty-and-eradicate-sickness-jesus…?

    We don’t want change!!! We want the old paths. The gospel – by grace alone, through faith alone, in Jesus Christ alone. The way, the truth the life.

    1 Corinthians 1:18
    For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.

    The emergent church that is busy synthesizing their poisonous nonsense with the true church is Cross-less. And Christ-less.

    Kingdom purposes? Can you define that?

    Could that be paying with your LIFE for the sake of the gospel??? Like what is happening in north Korea, Iran, China, Nigeria etc? That is the highest ‘purpose’!

    http://www.persecution.com/

    You need to preach the true Gospel. The true Gospel is not culturally relevant – it will cause you to be hated by all men. It will cause you to influence the culture NOT Synthesize into it.

    Isaiah 66:4
    I also will choose their delusions, and will bring their fears upon them; because when I called, none did answer; when I spake, they did not hear: but they did evil before mine eyes, and chose that in which I delighted not.

  • Michael Anthony

    Amanda

    If you like Ingrid Schueter here’s another modern day Deborah that you will like. The radio program is called ‘Understanding the times’.

    http://www.olivetreeviews.org/radio/mp3/

    Also,

    http://www.prophecyinthenews.com/

  • Amanda

    Michael Anthony

    Thank you! I have listened to Understanding the Times before. Solid stuff. Now I see on your link that they have a low bandwidth version of the programs available. Aha! Bookmarked.

    I will check out the Prophecy in the News link. Thanks!

  • Discerning the World

    Roger

    >> And therefore, given that you believe me to be a trickster, what am I left to say?

    Not just me, Your friend Nic Paton first referred to you as the greatest trickster he knows and you thanked him for his wonderful compliment on his blog.

    So yeah, what are you left to say…

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  • IN NO EVENT WILL DISCERNING THE WORLD, ITS AFFILIATES OR ANY OF THEIR RESPECTIVE EMPLOYEES, AGENTS OR LICENSORS BE LIABLE FOR ANY DAMAGES, INCLUDING WITHOUT LIMITATION DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR PUNITIVE DAMAGES, EVEN IF THEY HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES, ARISING FROM, RELATING TO OR CONNECTED WITH THE USE OR INABILITY TO USE THE SITE OR ANY OTHER MATTER ARISING FROM, RELATING TO OR CONNECTED WITH THE SITE OR THESE TERMS.

16. These Terms constitute the entire agreement between Discerning the World and you with respect to the subject matter hereof, and supersede any previous oral or written agreement between us with respect to such subject matter.

Thank you!