Love Casts Out All Hell
Love Casts Out All Hell
It’s amazing that preaching the Gospel of Jesus Christ which is about REPENTANCE OF SIN and all about SAVING SOULS can irritate the living daylights out of people.
I mean, let’s think about this logically. If you don’t believe in hell then nothing anyone could say could upset you. If you wholeheartedly believe that God would never punish you! Then do not comment on this article!
New Age Emergent church, Word of Faith, New Apostolic Reformers have this saying at the moment that “love casts out all fear”. The “law/rule of love” casts out anything bad in your life; this includes half of the Bible, especially the scriptures, that if one does not repent of their sin they will perish.
It’s like being told by someone that in your next life you will be reincarnated into a cup of coffee doomed to forever be boiled, stirred and slurped. Of course you would say; “That’s a load of rubbish!” (I hope), and not let it bother you one bit because it’s just that, rubbish.
What does the bible say?
So why does preaching what the bible commands; repentance of sin, cause an absolute train smash in your life. It’s like hearing this message is the most horrendous thing you could possibly ever hear.
But again, if you really don’t believe what the entire Word of God has to say, then you shouldn’t need to worry and you don’t have a problem do you. The joy and love in you should wipe out that fear even though God Himself says in His Word to you that if you don’t repent you will be punished. But hey, who is God anyway.
New World Christ
The New World Religion ‘love’ or ‘Christ’ says that mankind is not sinful and thereby does not need to repent. By thinking this you are creating fear in your life and in others lives and Christ’s heart resonates love and never creates fear. Fear comes from Satan because God is Love. Christ is nothing but Love. Christ illuminates love to the world.
According to the New World view, saying sorry to God because you are a transgressor, a sinful human being, born into a sinful world with no hope, must definitely fall under the law/rule of hatred, not love! Saying sorry to God that you follow the lies of this world, false teaching, doctrines of demons, doctrines made by men who listen to false gods that will ONLY lead you to a spiritual death is ridiculous to say the least…
“Absolute rubbish” Say those trapped in the Sacred-Heart of the One World Religion Christ.
Becoming a Christ
They say, “We are made in the image of God; it says so in the book of Genesis. We start of as ‘new’ Christians and in order to become just like Jesus did when He walked on earth, we need to do as he did. We need to ask each other for forgiveness, we feed the poor, we give warmth to those stranded in the cold, we unchain the chained, we release the prisoners, we give our wealth to the poor, and we willingly invite people into our homes and churches who have heard the truth but choose to follow other gods, we also welcome false teaching into our lives with open arms and join hands in our global village – in the centre of the village is a boiling pot of all faiths mixed together.
We need to show love and unite everyone no matter what. Disagreeing with someone is not love, and causes nothing but division. The more we love the more we will grow to be just like that Christ with that fake plastic heart punctured with thorns resonating light and love in the middle of his chest. We don’t repent of our sins to God. This is NOT the way to do it. Instead we are to repent of our transgressions to each other and our ancestors – that will fix all our problems!”
If the New Christ’s Golden Rule of Love is so convincing then why does the world get so upset when a few people say this love is not true love, but a false love. If you really believe this New World Love to be true then you should have no fear and just dismiss the Bible as being another book on the book shelf and not let it bother you.
But this book, the Bible – this one book in particular bothers everyone to the point of insanity. It bothers the world so much that since the beginning of time the world has been trying to destroy it. Either trying to kill those who can spread the message, or by trying to remove the bible completely by banning it, or trying to change its message into something completely different.
The Gospel of Jesus Christ says there is nothing you can do on this earth, no law, no good work, that will guarantee your salvation except by believing in Jesus Christ the Son of God. But this message is torturous for millions of people on this earth, they just won’t accept it.
Doing Good Works
They have to justify their faith by doing something ‘good’ to either prove to themselves that all is okay with their faith or to show others they are Christian by trying to justify themselves to others through good works. Most will say that neither one of the above is true for them; They will say that doing good works and showing love is what Christ commanded us to do and by just following Christ’s rule of love it makes them feel full of love and this is what Jesus is all about; giving and then receiving love. The problem is that you can give to others until the cows come home and you can feel all special inside afterwards, but this will NEVER save you from what is due to you in the afterlife.
What does God want from us?
The Gospel of Jesus Christ insists on genuine repentance of sin and believing that Jesus the PERFECT sacrifice died on the cross for you and was resurrected 3 days later. That His Blood that was spilt washes you spotless when you accept Him, Jesus Christ the Son of God our ONLY mediator the ONLY way, truth and life to the Father. Because of the sacrifice that God made for you, when you accept His sacrifice, only then can His Son Jesus Christ present you before The Father, a HOLY God who CANNOT tolerate sin and NEVER will. – This message is the most agonizing thing the world could possibly ever hear, ever.
That God actually can’t tolerate our behavior. “Untrue” they say! “God LOVES every one!”
The world screams and shouts when you tell them that as per the Word of God, He commands that you REPENT of your SIN, humble yourself before Him, and BOW before Him as a SINNER who does not deserve His grace. We don’t deserve what He has done for us because we actually love sin more than God.
All He asks from you is to accept His Son and say you are sorry for living a sinful life and STOP and CHANGE your wicked ways. Stop following other teachings taught by other gods that try to make you think they are the masters of this universe when in fact there is only ONE ALMIGHTY God who created everything including us.
GOD has every right to destroy us!
He kicked Adam and Eve out the garden, He drowned the entire world excluding Noah and a handful of others who would not follow after wickedness and were humble and repentant before God. God punished the Israelites because they could not wait for Moses to leave them for a few days so they could return to their wicked ways. Moses came back to find them dancing and worshipping a newly built statue in the form of a golden calf (Baal). God’s people could not wait to bow down to this pathetic god Baal who puffs himself up to make himself seem godly over GOD, THE CREATOR of the universe.
All Baal could do was get men to make an image of himself. Let’s not even mention Sodom and Gomorrah. God wasted no time hurling fire and brimstone at these cities until they were completely wiped out – what did they do wrong? They were an abomination before God. Immorality and Homosexuality ran rampant, if only repentance of sin ran rampant, these two cities would have stood much longer.
The simplest of requests
God asks of us the simplest of things: He instructs us to ask Him for forgiveness and to CHANGE our ways. This is all God asks, but the world are not one bit interested in doing this. Even God giving His Only Son’s life for mankind means nothing.
The world says, “How can God say something like that? It’s ghastly! Can you imagine God spilling His Sons blood for us? I want nothing to do with a God who can do something like that!” Lately it’s called transcendental child abuse by Emergent Leaders in the field of Biblical studies.
Well if that’s the case, if anyone you know or don’t know saves your life by jumping in front of a bullet that was meant for you, and they take the hit; please do remember to slap them in the face afterwards, maybe twice, just because you can.
It’s the most terrible, un-comprehendible Biblical message to want to listen too; that God bruised and crucified His Own Son for the world and spilt His blood for the world! All you have to do is personally accept and believe in Jesus Christ and God will accept you as His child.
Becoming a child of God
You become a child of God, re-born, born again by God’s Holy Spirit who will ONLY THEN come to abide in you, giving you council, comfort and leads you into righteousness. This is the PERFECT LOVE that casts out all fear. Not the false Christ’s show and tell love that supposedly casts out all fear and yet sends people into mass panic, as they duck and dive under the ‘judge not’ clichÃ© when you point out that God insists on asking forgiveness of your sins and insists that you actually change your ways. You can’t keep asking for forgiveness and live in perpetual sin. Changing your ways and not wanting to sin, hating sin, is the fruit of being born again.
People say that this message is terrible, “WHO does God think HE IS asking ME to do this! I don’t believe for one second that God will punish those who have been ‘good’ their whole lives. God is a God of Love. It says in the Bible that He sent Jesus that the world may be saved, I am therefore saved. I believe in God”
But ask them if they repent of their sin and they have a nervous breakdown. “Why must I repent of my sin?” they ask. “I am saved by Jesus Christ, he has saved me. I read my bible, I have 5 translations, and read each one of them twice! I go to church, I take part in fellowship, I am a good person. I don’t smoke or drink. I pay tithes, more than 10% I might add. And I give to charities. I even spend time at orphanages, oh the love, I leave there crying most of the time. I am a Christian! How dare you judge me! The Word of God judges you by your fruit! How many people have you saved lately?”
Asking this question is like being mistaken for instigating an Inquisition.
If you know you are not going to perish then why do you get so upset?!
Some will do everything and anything; even sell their soul to avoid thinking that they are sinful and just the thought of repenting of sin can cause cardiac arrest. Having to say sorry and ask God for forgiveness through his Son Jesus Christ is the last thing the world wants to do. The New World View speaks about love, but can’t muster one tiny ounce of love towards God to repent of their sinful lives.
The last thing the world wants to see is when Jesus Christ returns to judge the world.
Will you be kneeling before Jesus Christ confident, with the biggest smile of utter joy and love for Him. Jesus Christ the Son of God who promised He would come back and is NOW right there before you in ALL GLORY.
You wait anxiously to get your chance to bow before your KING, tears streaming down your cheeks, tears of happiness. Not fear! Because you have obeyed God’s Word, and repented of your sin and changed your ways by following Jesus Christ with all the genuine love you could possibly muster form your own little heart. You listened to the Holy Spirit’s conviction in your life; when you were not pleasing in God’s eyes, when you were sinning, the Holy Spirit let you know, you felt ashamed, you needed to ask your Heavenly Father for forgiveness. Sometimes you resisted His conviction in your life and had to deal with the consequences, other times you obeyed immediately and still had to deal with the consequences of what you had done – either way you will always ask Him to forgive you, through His Son Jesus Christ and you change your ways as you grow in Jesus Christ. This is our Father’s love; a Father who keeps His children on the straight and narrow path.
The rest of the world crawls and grovels around in shock and horror praying that God will now hear them and they plead for mercy! But they hear nothing; their god’s voice is nowhere to be heard. They won’t hear their god speak because they are crawling around and groveling in shock and horror just like you are.
Someone realises they are carrying their lucky Buddha idol in their pocket, and in a last effort to sin, they start rubbing it’s fat disgusting stomach in the hope their name is not next on the judgment list. Because that’s all false gods are good for – good for nothing.
Good word, Ryan.
To your last point, I find it interesting that there seems to be correlation between “proving” one’s faith and good works with hyper-fundamentalism. Good works seems to be something relegated to the mind now. Our “thinking” is what saves us.
How do you, DTW, reconcile your belief that salvation comes from Christ alone (which I believe) with your belief that unless you think correctly your damned? Doesn’t that make salvation all about me and my ability to not be ignorant on any aspect of God?
I’m interested in seeing how you correlate this statement “The Gospel of Jesus Christ says there is nothing you can do on this earth, no law, no good work, that will guarantee your salvation except by believing in Jesus Christ the Son of God. But this message is torturous for millions of people on this earth, they just wont accept it.” (Which I wholeheartedly agree with), to your statements about how the Gospel insists we repent and change our ways.
Linked to this, I’m also interested in seeing is what you consider “punishment” in this instance. There are many different kinds of punishment – some will take place in this life, perhaps, others in the afterlife. When you say ‘punishment’ towards Christians do you mean hell (eternally separated from God)? Or do you mean some other kind of punishment?
Also, remember that “perfect love casts out all fear” is a Bible verse, so showing exactly what kind of fear is represented in the verse could probably prove your point a little more directly. I did think it was a good post on other points, though, particularly on how many do try and ‘prove’ their Christianity through good works when, in fact, do they really believe/trust on/rely/have faith in Jesus? This is what we need to do – but it’s easier to trust on good works, isn’t it? Meanwhile good works will never do for our salvation, but they certainly help towards towards the bringing to salvation of others.
>> …..to your statements about how the Gospel insists we repent and change our ways?
Well the Bible does tell us to repent and change our ways, many, many, many times. Repenting (is not a work – it’s obeying God), changing your ways (is not a work – it’s obeying God) changing ones ways can only come after repentance of sin because we can’t change on our own, we need the help of the Holy Spirit’s conviction in our life. Good works, laws and anything else on this earth cant save anyone.
>> When you say punishment towards Christians do you mean hell (eternally separated from God)?
Yes, eternal punishment only. This entire article is about people’s souls.
>> perfect love casts out all fear is a Bible verse
>> Meanwhile good works will never do for our salvation, but they certainly help towards towards the bringing to salvation of others.
No, I disagree, because it’s the message that offends people. So it’s not about the meal – it’s all about the Truth that is spoken.
People will hear the truth if they want to hear it, and no amount of good works is going to get the job done either.
See comment here where Ryan agrees with Nic’s article at comment #9: Satan the Trickster Embracing the Emerging Snake
>> Good works seems to be something relegated to the mind now. Our thinking is what saves us…….with your belief that unless you think correctly your damned?
Think correctly? where ….oh….its you who is not thinking correctly…
Thanks for the reply.
I’m not quite sure I agree that ‘obedience’ is not a work. I’ll agree that ‘believing’ is not a work as the kind of believing in the Bible is a relational believing (I trust in, rely on, have faith in Jesus, who is a person) but obeying that person is about what I DO. Do you see obedience as the same thing? Are you sure that obedience is the right word or that you’re using it in the right context?
Of course, we could perhaps say that obedience is not a work once someone has the Holy Spirit living inside them. But you are saying repentance is required first. Now, you probably know that repentance means to ‘change your mind’ – but this doesn’t necessarily mean change your ways. Once you repent (change your mind) and believe (put your trust in God) you can only THEN obey (change your ways). That’s at least how I seem to see the Scriptures saying it.
Jesus says “repent for the Kingdom of heaven is near”. We see people repent and believe before baptism – and baptism represents the ‘dying to sin’ aspect and now living to God (Rom 6). Which means to say that we have to die to sin only after believing, we can’t die to sin before believing. But if we make ‘obedience’ rather than ‘believing’ a prerequisite for salvation it seems to me we are putting the cart before the horse.
>>Yes, eternal punishment only. This entire article is about peoples souls.
THis seems to remind of extreme puritan views. I must say that Christians (people who have faith in Christ) going to hell is not a strictly reformed view, at least when we look at the original reformed writers.
The Scriptures indicate that there is inheritance and there is salvation. In other words, when one believes in Jesus (puts their trust in etc.) but then refuses to obey him, they do not go to hell, they lose their REWARD and INHERITANCE. Parables about mansions and that sort of thing, and 1 Cor 3 are some examples.
RT Kendall or Micheal Eaton are some good reading in this regard.
This is interesting as it may be that hyper-fundamentalism seems to just be a modern view of certain types of puritanism.
Relegating the entire Gospel to WHAT you believe rather than WHO you believe actually lowers the standard of entry, something hyper-fundamentalists would refuse to acknowledge. I can EASILY just agree with all the right doctrine but have no real faith in Christ at all. Here is where I think many will SAY “Lord Lord” but Jesus will say “away with me you evildoers”.
BELIEVING in Jesus is far more difficult and far more extreme than just believing the right things about Jesus. Furthermore, Christians in every generation have believed wrong things, most of the time due to ignorance. Martin Luther, although a reformer, apparently still prayed to Mary. Is he going to hell because his theology was wrong in some aspects?
Oh sigh… listen Ryan, it’s obviously very clear that you are one of the ones I speak about in my article who would rather beat themselves over the head with a frying pan before asking Jesus Christ (the one you profess to believe in so much) for forgiveneness and changing your ways. Because it’s just too much hard work for you.
Oh wait…hitting youself over the head with a frying pan is work. How do you get out of bed in the morning? Oh my…you got to get into bed (work) to get out of bed….hmmm this is a tough one.
There is a sentence in my article at the top that says:
Are you doubting that it is possibly true, that hell exists and if you don’t repent of your sin and change your ways you will persish as per the Word of God?
>> Do I believe God will send Christians there?
So everyone who called themself a Christian is going to go to heaven? Does not matter if they follow after other gods who teach other teachings?
Which is more difficult: Answer: Neither, because….
>> 1) To acknowledge a set of beliefs before everyone else;
I acknowledge what the Word of God says. The Bible is not a ‘set of beliefs. The bible is Holy Spirit inspired words of God written by humans hands. It’s infallible because it was written by GOD! Rob Bells Nooma DVD set however is just that…a set of beliefs.
>> 2) to believe and trust in a person with your very life and soul?
I believe in Jesus Christ the Son of God, with my very life and soul. Jesus is not a person he is God.
>> This is interesting as it may be that hyper-fundamentalism seems to just be a modern view of certain types of puritanism.
Good grief. LOL So now we are hostile towards social pleasures and indulgences… *shakes her head in disbelief*
Does following false teaching fall into your type of indulgence by and chance?
Does agreeing that all faiths are compatible to the bible fall into your type of indulgence?
Going to visit a buddhist temple, would that be one of your type of social pleasures?
Would a social pleasure for you be to walk a Labyrinth?
Would going to see a fortune teller be one of your type of social pleasures?
Does agreeing with Nic’s article fall into one of your type of indulgences? Dark arts perhaps? Or haven’t you got that far yet?
Nic’s article where he says: Satan the Trickster Embracing the Emerging Snake
So now we need to ask, why are you following Emergent teaching then. Emergent Church are interfaith, all gods from all religions are one and the same. These are people now who ‘call’ themsleves Christian but yet follow after other gods – and try incorporate Jesus into the same message.
1 Cor 3: 14,15
“If the work that anyone has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward. If anyone’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.”
There is punishment for the household of God and punishment for those who are not in the household. The punishment for the household of God is not the same as those outside of it – as per the Bible. There is not one single verse in the New Testament that suggests a Christian can lose their justification before God, lose their adoption or no longer be born again. You’re welcome to try and find one and produce it. Take particular notice to the difference between “inheritance” and justification. You can see a clear theme running.
Since I believe that God does punish, I’ve commented on your article. God does punish. But to suggest that he sends Christians to hell because they were not good enough in ‘changing their ways’ is the same as putting law over Christians to ‘earn’ their salvation to heaven. This is the ultimate end of that kind of theology.
I believe hell exists, yes. Do I believe God will send Christians there? No, why would He send His own sons and daughters to hell? He may punish them, yes, and those punishments will even have eternal consequences – but there’s not one stitch of evidence from the Bible that he would send Christians to hell.
Great comment, just great…thanks 🙂
I like the way you said this: “Believers will be chastised by their Father here and now because His loving chastisement will again kindle the gift of repentance and have His child agree with Him, His Word to spare them from wrath. Its not nice but has wonderful consequence. Its not nice but has wonderful consequence.”.
Hey DTW, I’m not sure I understand what you’re talking about. Your comment seems to be unrelated to my post.
Which is more difficult:
1) To acknowledge a set of beliefs before everyone else;
2) to believe and trust in a person with your very life and soul?
Everything you said right here about what emergents believe is absolutely false.
You obviously have no idea what emergents believe or teach.
>> You obviously have no idea what emergents believe or teach.
I do, but you don’t do you, that’s why it’s called deception cos you can’t tell truth from error.
“I do, but you dont do you, thats why its called deception cos you cant tell truth from error.”
That doesn’t make any sense.
You obviously do not know what you are talking about because emergents are not “interfaith” nor do they think all roads lead to heaven or that all gods are alike or any other such nonsense.
Why are you hanging around with people who have incorporated other god’s into their teaching? This sounds like me back in the day when I told my mom, “I’m not into the occult, it’s just my friends who are – but they are nice to me so I hang with them.” I found out later that excuse does not go down very AT ALL with God.
Quick question, do you think Roman Catholics are Christian?
“Of course they do. Desmond Tutu has stated that the god of the muslim, the god of the hindu, the god of all religions are one and the same god ”
You make me laugh, DTW.
Desmond Tutu is not a member of the emerging church nor a leader or teacher in the emerging church. Please. Your guilt by association is just lazy discernment work (if you can call it that).
The lies you spread about emergents are really just a product of your ignorance, I think. So I’ll let it slide. You obviously do not know what you are talking about.
Now, if you care to produce a teaching from an actual emergent leader or preacher who says all gods are the same and that all roads lead to heaven than I will happily post on your blog how very right you have always been and how terribly wrong I am.
I know how tempting it is for you to delete this comment. God forbid you actually back up your assertions.
“Desmond Tutu is not a member of the emerging church nor a leader or teacher in the emerging church. Please. Your guilt by association is just lazy discernment work (if you can call it that).”
Yeah, pull another leg why don’t you
Thankfully most who read this blog are not stupid and can see right through you and your desperate try to cover up the “who’s who’ in the Emergent zoo.”
Do you think Roman Catholics are Christian?
All those who believe in Jesus will go to heaven. Yes, some call themselves Christians but mean nothing more than they are born into a Christian nation. Others call themselves Christians because they say they have believed on Jesus. The latter is what I am talking about.
So to answer your question with regards to that, the answer is yes. Based on 1 Cor 3 and 9 and other scriptures.
This doesn’t mean that Christians who worship other gods (and there are many who do less obviously, such as those who worship money or profile etc.) will not lose something very dear. In 1 Cor 3, Heb 6 and John 15 it shows that they will receive a fiery judgement and will lose their reward and glorification. Hebrews 6 goes so far as to say that in this life God will leave those who believe but harden their hearts towards him in the wilderness and they won’t even be able to hear His voice anymore nor progress in the Kingdom.
Losing our glorification for the sake of sin or following other gods when we already have Jesus is by all means a serious loss. This is because the loss is eternal – I’ll never have a chance again to build up rewards for myself in heaven. For all eternity my glory is gone. I’ve lost it all, and although I’ve not been thrown into hell, I have to forever and ever live with the fact that I don’t have much in heaven save the skin of my teeth (to put it bluntly).
There is a difference between doing what you are told to do to be saved; and thinking that you receive salvation as a result of your ‘work’. Work here, in the wrong sense, is for wages, namely salvation. I ‘work’ and God pays me for doing it, He becomes the debtor. It is then not grace but work that deserves reward – salvation.
We are told to believe His Son. If we do, it is then the ‘obedience of faith’. It is clear then that there is nothing which we CAN do to earn salvation but there is something which we MUST do to be saved: Obey the gospel message which is to believe in Jesus.
Interestingly the first public words which our Lord spoke as per Matthew and Mark is to repent. How were the hearers expected to “change their minds”? Many would possibly think He meant that they should stop sinning which is not untrue, but the correct answer had something to do with the ‘Kingdom of God’ and more specifically with the Messenger from the Kingdom. Groundwork was laid by John the Baptist, for those with ‘ears and eyes’. Israel at that stage was backslidden and needed a ‘revival’ in order to meet their Messiah. God granted it. This is a kind of a pattern we see and have seen through all ages. God stirs the heart and brings a readiness to the soul which results in a repentance of faith which is more than a change of mind. It is a change of life, purpose, direction, experience and walk. It immediately becomes discipleship, adoration and trust in the Saviour. Only theological wangling can dissociate ‘repentance from sin’ from this saving experience. It basically brings the old and new covenant writings in doubt in so many ways.
Repentance from sin is each and every sinners obligation because it is ingrained and central in God’s communication to us since eden.
Because God knew and illustrated over and over again that we could not be sinless in our walk and could not cleanse ourselves from our sinful condition He made a way for us and we can be gloriously saved by His grace.
Repentance is not conditional – it is automatic, a given, part and parcel – a work of God the Holy Spirit and it does include turning from sin, whatever our notion of sin might be at the time, even if it is in the heart only at that stage.
Repentance is definitional – known in our hearts and by God and visible by man. Evidence of salvation, not as a work but as an ingredient. Of course man is not alway qualified to ‘judge’ repentance in others because we often measure others by our own standards and understandings so we should not be quick to make judgements. It does though become worrying that christians disregard repentance and make it out to be a ‘works issue’ which allows them to feel ok when they are not ok.
It boils down to knowing our God. Knowing His grief regarding sin. His sacrifice to save from the plague of sin. Knowing what the universal drama is all about. Those who are not saved will have no true knowledge of the sin issue and the concept of repentance.
God has 2 ways of dealing with sin in mankind. The unbelievers will receive judgement in the day of the Lord for their sins which will be fair and righteous. Believers will be chastised by their Father here and now because His loving chastisement will again kindle the gift of repentance and have His child agree with Him, His Word to spare them from wrath. It’s not nice but has wonderful consequence.
Of course there is the issue of apostacy…..
You’ve missed the point I think.
I can agree with absolutely everything you say here at this blog, but that doesn’t make me a Christian.
I can also agree – affirm, mentally – absolutely everything the Bible says but that doesn’t make me a Christian.
The only time I become a Christian is when I actually believe, put my faith in, trust completely on Jesus Christ. Do you know there are people in Africa who do this based on a single tract? They don’t have a Bible or access to a Bible, at least not in a language they can understand. They don’t know much about Jesus, but yet they believe in Him.
Acts 19:1-6 talks about disciples who didn’t even know there was a Holy Spirit, yet the Bible calls them disciples even before they are taught about the Holy Spirit.
Jesus is both person and God. His body was raised from the dead and his body ascended into heaven. He is fully man and fully God.
Hey DTW, I don’t follow Emergent teaching.
a) I am friends with some Emergents, but I am not Emergent.
b) There are Emergents (or those who call themselves emerging church) who disagree with other Emergents over these issues you have raised. In other words, not all Emergents have incorporated other gods into their teachings. Emergents are not all the same. Mark Driscoll has some teachings on this, and I believe D.A. Carson has even consented on this point (if I remember correctly).
Thanks for answering…
Well in gentleness, love and all things genuinely Christian. I tell you that you are playing with fire and if you don’t stop you are going to land yourself in a lot of spiritual trouble.
If you can’t see that as being blasphemous then…oh boy. It does not bother you one bit? Not even deep down?
So if one blasphemes, degrades and mock Jesus Christ it’s now that they were either being metaphorical, poetic, artistic or satirical.
If we stand up for Jesus Christ we are hyper-fundermentalist and metaphorically speaking like “suicide bombers”.
Here is a comment made by Andrew on Nic’s blog here: Emergingafrica.info about me (Discerning The World)
When I question Andrew on this blatant comparison of born again Christians who preach repentance of sin to that of a suicide bomber I get this reply…
Andrew is the owner of this blog: fake expressions of the unkown
Wonder if Fake Expressions of the Unknown is a metaphor for “twisting scripture into something unknown.”
Puritans were not just about social things, there is a lot more theology with the puritans that I’m referring to.
Regardless, I myself shouldn’t be unfair towards puritans – some had a lot of good things to say and others went to an extreme, just like in any kind of movement. I really mean extreme puritans by my comments.
What do you say about the puritans, for interests sake?
Thanks Francois, great comments. I would be particularly interested in seeing what you would have to say with regards to the scriptures I mentioned in the above comments of mine (I don’t know how to link to them, but I especially mean 1 Cor 3 and the others I mentioned above).
DTW – I feel as if I’m hijacking this blog here a little with too many comments. Let me know when you feel that way too as I want to respect your blog and know what it’s like when someone comes in and has too much to say! 🙂
Regarding your comment above you said >> You obviously do not know what you are talking about because emergents are not interfaith nor do they think all roads lead to heaven or that all gods are alike or any other such nonsense.
Of course they do. Desmond Tutu has stated that the god of the muslim, the god of the hindu, the god of all religions are one and the same god…
Use it, don’t use it.
Some Emergents are honestly off the wall, others are not actually off the wall at all. Some are misunderstood because they speak differently than other Christians. In all movements there are extremes.
I can’t comment up above anymore, I think the system won’t allow any more comments on the one string due to it sitting too close to the side now, so I’ll quickly reply here.
Why are you hanging around with people who have incorporated other gods into their teaching? This sounds like me back in the day when I told my mom, Im not into the occult, its just my friends who are but they are nice to me so I hang with them. I found out later that excuse does not go down very AT ALL with God.
Well, for a couple of reasons
1) I’ve never once encountered an Emerging church person who was honestly and deliberately trying to incorporate Jesus along with other gods. I include someone like Nic in this who I have met personally a few times and chatted over the phone etc. Nic is a very arty kind of guy who is misunderstood in most circles, and I appreciate this unique artistic way with words.
Let me give you an example of how I see Nic. A while ago in our church we had an artist who painted a picture of Jesus on the cross and put his face over the face of Jesus. This was seen as blasphemy by many of the church goers.
When asked why he did it, he said that the picture meant that it was his sin that put Jesus on the cross, and he should have been the one on the cross.
So you can see that what he meant by the picture was hardly what others thought the picture meant. This is what art is like – it invokes responses from different crowds, but the artist is really the only one who knows what he meant. Nic is the same way. He uses words that seem twisted because he knows it invokes response and dialogue. He uses words no one else would probably use because he is not satisfied with just the ordinary but likes things that are ‘different’ etc.
The artists are always the misunderstood because they don’t live in the realm of the literal, they live in the realm of metaphor, poetry and picture language. You can’t take any of Nic’s posts that literally, you’ve got to see it from an artists perspective. True, Nic can sometimes say things that make me feel very uncomfortable, but whenever he is lovingly approached about it he always changes his mind. This is what I enjoy about him – he is teachable.
2) I’m hanging around here right now and it’s clear we don’t agree with many things 🙂
3) I believe in lovingly and faithfully restoring my brother in a spirit of gentleness, such as Gal 6 proposes:
“Brothers, if anyone is caught in any transgression, you who are spiritual should restore him in a spirit of gentleness. Keep watch on yourself, lest you too be tempted.
Not that I have all the answers, but I know we’re all on a journey of discovering and knowing Christ more. There are many things to deceive us on this journey, and I find it my duty to restore those who are being deceived, lovingly as the Bible says I should.
Quick question, do you think Roman Catholics are Christian?
Yes 🙂 Again, though, some are probably not and some definately are.
Sorry for the long comment. I have had write this in a rush.
It seems you have a good foundation in Scripture and you come over as sincere. You allude to the fact that Nic is ‘off track’ and I agree. I just think he is dangerously off track, more than you perhaps realise. I understand the artistic use of images and metaphors but there is more at play here. I will put it bluntly: He is in danger of blaspheming the Lord whether he is aware of it or not and it is someones responsibility to address that. The kind of mixture that he is alluding to of Jesus and Satan is extremely heretical and dangerous and no poetic or artistic license can justify it.
I honestly cannot think that Paul or other apostles would have tolerated the things which this person writes. There is the Godly and loving approach to brethren which is good but at some point a line must be drawn.
I know little of the emerging movement but if Nic’s writing is acceptable in it I will avoid it like the plague.
This article however deals with sin, faith, works and salvation.
I think i Cor 3:14,15 does not address sin and apostacy but works being acceptable or not. Much ‘christian work’ could be performance driven, ego driven or just plain church manipulation and threats. The Lord knows the heart and that day will reveal it. I know the deceitfulness of my own heart but am also learning that when He works I can become a co-worker(steward/servant). I realise that many ‘works’ that I have done fell outside of this criteria. (it doesn’t mean He can’t use it but i won’t get reward for it!). Christ is to be pre-eminent is all and His virtues bring forth good works by the Spirit which is acceptable to the Father. The big problem for us is that to have the mind of Christ is embracing selflessness which is a horror to most, ‘fundamentalists’ and ’emergents’ alike. We are all just people.
It won’t help to read the latest book on self denial though. Some who can’t even read would probably understand it better with a little help from a Friend.
I’m writing too much so will add some thought later on the Lord’s warnings.
I am only going to say these 2 things to you…
>> Beneath the guise of Christian lies only dead religion.
HUH?? Jesus is not a religion, you should know that! A genuine Christian has a personal relationship with Jesus Christ, You can have this personal relationship because of His Holy Spirit that abides in you, and the Holy Spirit comes to abide in you because you asked for forgiveness of sin, and believed in the Son of God.
You keep calling me a fundamentalist. I had no idea that telling someone to bow and humble themselves before Jesus and ask Him for forgiveness is such a bad thing. I am not physically harming you. This is what funamentalists do, they physically harm people. If this is what you think genuine Christians are about then you have a very very warped idea of who Jesus Christ is.
But then again as per your ideas, behind bible believing Christianity lies only dead religion . So what replaced it? And who died and remained dead for you to get to this conclusion?
I see on your blog you write that you agree that Jesus Christ was ressurrected from the dead, and you ask people:
BUT then you make statemets like this “Beneath the guise of Christian lies only dead religion”.
Go explain yourself on your blog as to why you are dishonest.
Lastly you say >> “When you start seeing the signs, remember this warning”
LOL, what is happening in the world today with people who claim to be Christians but mock Jesus at the same time are the warning signs! Look at yourself and the people who you choose to agree with.
Thanks DTW, I appreciate the concern.
Let me say here, if you will hear it, that I have equal kind of concern for you since I’ve visited your blog. You seem to be involved with some form of extreme fundamentalism that will land you in serious spiritual trouble as well.
I mean it.
This kind of fundamentalism has a knack of sidetracking a person from their real ministry and calling in God. In the end, it will make you unteachable and unnapproachable, and as a result, you will not be in a position to teach or exhort others and therefore will not be able to engage in ministry effectively.
Not only that, but you will find your joy will eventually disappear. Grace will no longer be where you live.
Many hyper-fundamentalists have come out severely bruised while others have even completely given up their faith and gone into all sorts of other things, in a knee-jerk reaction to how the hyper-fundamentalist church begins to treat them.
They were once ‘inside’ now they’re also the ‘outside’ because hyper-fundamentalism has a knack of making the ‘elite group’, the ‘true christians’ into a smaller and smaller group, until no one can really get in and there is no community or church at all. All the periphery beliefs become the ‘main thing’ rather than the ‘main thing’ being the Gospel of Jesus Christ.
Heed my warning now: it will happen to you as well. When you start seeing the signs, remember this warning.
Hyper fundamentalist teachers remind me of the pharisees, who lay burdens on people who no one can reach but will not lift a finger to help.
This kind of fundamentalism can even often border on a cult as it all becomes about the elite group who are the ‘real’ christians, and every other christian is outside.
All in all, fundamentalism (as it is today, and I am generalising) is spiritually damaging and my same warning to you is that you’re playing with fire.
My main friends are not emergent, fundamentalist or latter rain whatevers so I’ve put checks and balances in place, as well as accountability structures, to keep me in line.
Be careful with the kind of teaching it looks like you surround yourself with. Beneath the guise of Christian lies only dead religion.
You may not believe me now, but remember this warning anyway. This is by no means some form of hate speech towards fundamentalists, yourself, Francois or the other people who I’ve conversed with here recently. I appreciate what they have to say, what you have to say, but don’t be fooled.
Hey DTW, I have explained, in more detail, as you’ve asked, at my blog. You know where to find it. You’re welcome to continue to discuss this there, it may be of interest to you.
I think its best that we meet like regular humans and like christian brothers.
Then you can decide whether I am a blasphemer or not, or whether Satan is at work in my life.
Where do you live?
LOL, ‘where do you live?’ sorry Francois..it’s now your turn to be stalked, just remember to bring your own coffee and make it stronggggggg, you are gonna need it.
Your fear of human contact is raising a lot of questions about you…
Do you really stand up for what you believe? I mean it is easy to say all these things you say while you maintain your anonymity. It’s not so easy when people know who you are.
Is this just a theoretical exercise in a virtual world where you can decide who is and who is not a real Christian?
Do you like to judge people but will not be judged yourself?
Do you know what real Christian community is like where there is love, trust and mutual care?
Are you accountable to anyone for the things you write? Like an elder board.
I will be praying for you.
May the love of our Lord Jesus Christ fill you to overflowing.
How do you explain the Dalai Lama, Desmond Tutu, Rob Bell (prominent emergent figure) and a Budhist lady all together during an interfaith seminar… talking the same “language”…?
All the so-called emergents speak the same language, they quote the same teachers, preachers and authors… Desmond Tutu is not recognised as “emergent”, yet he agrees with what they teach and preach!
Emergent Church is seen as the way forward to unite all religions (and Christianity is seen as just another religion by the world)… to them Christianity can join the party – terms and conditions apply – you only need to ommit Jesus – the Jesus of the Bible…
>> Your fear of human contact is raising a lot of questions about you
You know nothing about me. And this comment of yours is an utter load of rubbish. Why don’t you ask Iggy to remove the packet from his head, instead. You have overstayed your welcome. Go and discuss how much you all hate me on Discernmamentalist Mafia.
If you call this number 0800-666-6666 at the bottom of the screen anytime from now until the foreseeable future, you will receive a box of stick-on tatoos (red heart with the number 666 in the middle) to hand out to all your children and friends. If you call this number today, you will receive a t-shirt and cap, and if you call this number within the next 30 minutes you will be able to sell your soul instantly. No forms, no fuss.
*Terms and Conditions apply: Please have your ID number with you when phoning. This advertisement is paid for by the parties concerned and runs 24/7/365. This offer is valid forever. You need to throw your bible away, if you are caught with a bible you will be prosecuted.*
Advert is repeat every 5 minutes.
Oh and there was a Jewish Rabbi and a Muslim leader of sorts and some other odd people all on a stage with thousands of people watching and applauding as they preached love and everyone coming together and uniting to solve the worlds problems.
In fact I think Desmond Tutu is like the Dalai Lama but of ‘Africa’. Des gave the Dalai Lama a run for his money at that conference I must say. In other words Tutu was more popular than the Dalai Lama with the audience.
You know fully well that people who don’t want to meet others have every right to not want to meet other people and it does not make me dubious at all. I have Christians I fellowship with, and these are people who adhere to the word of God in it’s entirety. I do no and will not fellowship with people who deleve into teachings that oppse the word of God. I know what the dark side looks like and it’s the most frightening thing even, especially when you try get out of it. Your friends are trying to go that way thinking it’s all metaphoric, peoetic and artistic and completely ok. Well…good luck.
As for these little straw men (I am going to do the most fundamentalist thing ever. Note this is the last fundamentalist thing I will do ever).
*takes out baseball bat and beats strawman to death*
Right…that’s all from me. I have murdered the strawman. I hope I never see him in a sentence again lol.
I don’t hate you. I don’t agree with what you are saying about the Emergent Conversation but I most definitely don’t hate you. Did I say anything that you consider hateful? If I did I want to know because I would like to appologise for such a statement.
I asked some questions about you. I didn’t state anything because like you said I know very little about you. Perhaps asking these questions are considered over the line here? I wonder why…
You make serious accusations against people. Most of them are just guilt by association, straw men arguments and some of them just made up lies. I ask you to consider what you are doing, especially the damage you are causing to the body of Christ.
I. Todyaso has a bag over his head just like you hide behind an baby elephant avatar. We all know how Iggy looks like…
Grace, peace and love to you.
You can send me a certificate. I’ve moved from hyper-fundamentalist to hardcore-fundamentalist cos only hardcore fundamentalists would even attempt to beat those strawmen up 😉
Nah I think he is pretty dead.
You’ve got a flame thrower? Now that is hardcore-fundamentalism.
I’ve got a flame thrower hidden in my garage… You can use it if you want to 😉
Shhhhh, I’m a undercover fundamentalist spying on the Emergent Gevaar… 😉
The body of Christ is made up of those saints who are justified by grace alone through faith alone in Christ’s righteousness alone. That is it. All others are excluded. They should repent and believe the true Gospel. False teachers who want to widen the gate and let more in, hurt the body of Christ by spreading their doubts about the Word of God around. They obscure the sufficiency of the Gospel by adding works. This allows them to pretend the good Muslim must be saved, because God loves good works and will not send someone to hell if he has done some of that. Wrong. The Lord will only accept perfection, not good efforts. Those who refuse to accept Jesus Christ’s finished work on their behalf, will find that the Lord will not lower His standards to accommodate them. The Gospel causes division, like it is supposed to do, but the emergents cannot stand it. They imagine they are doing pretty good keeping the LAW of LOVE.
Where do I live?
Hi Nic. Havent been back to Deborah’s sit for a while. Been distracted.
I live in Randburg. If I thought it would be beneficial to meet I would but would it?
If you do not see your writing as blasphemous what use would it do we chat? You insinuate that the devil is in Jesus and Jesus in the devil. No amount of face-to-face conversation can help if you defend this, or am I wrong?
[number removed by DTW] if you want to chat or meet but don’t waste my or your time if you truly believe this.
Whaau DTW, you r becoming very famous, many people want 2 meet u, want 2 know u … I 2 was accused of being “overly discerned”, “too controversial”, more or less much of the names u r being called. I withdrew (4 a time), just observing, listening, waiting on the LORD. I came 2 t conclusion: people want 2 “control” the “ministry / gifting” of/in other people; because they don’t understand how Holy Spirit is working in each individual; in the process they who speak out against “accusers” themselves turn into accusers; and so many are trapped in this accusing “game” just because the one wants to understand the other the way he wants 2. In scripture different functions are dealt out by Holy Spirit: some speak in love; some are axes, 2 break down & rebuilt; some teach, rebuke, correct and train in righteousness. 2 discern in THIS manner, is DTW’s “task” in this time & NO-ONE will b able / gifted 2 do it exactly this manner.
I can stand 4 it that you DTW are NOT afraid to meet people (personal experience sea?). neither to share ur whereabouts – BUT you DTW are alerted by Holy Spirit who you can trust 2 keep the info 4 themselves.
reading all the comments, it seems 2 me that many want 2 be followed – in it almost forcing readers 2 agree/understand what they feel/believe; not so many r willing 2 b followers of “the Word being made flesh”.
I also know that when a negative word is spoken or even a curse, or even black or white magic – if the follower of Jesus Christ whom it is directed to, don’t receive it – it will return to sender. SO PLEASE ALL BLOGGERS OUT THERE – stop this “cursing/warnings” whether you clothe it in black or white. it’s too high a price to pay. rather concentrate on your own blogs. God is in control, not us (sometimes pathetic) human beings!
I am committed 2 t path the LORD has directed me, so I will not b influenced by re-actions.
DTW, keep up ur good research. Keep Standing! cecilia
They only want to know who I am to hurt me; verbally, spiritually, emotionally etc. And I would not underestimate their feelings of hate either that might cause me physical harm.
And indeed I am in no way afraid of meeting people 🙂 And you are 100% correct that I am alerted by the Holy Spirit as to who I can trust and can’t. Who has bad intentions and who doesn’t.
When someone who follows other gods, prays for you, or tries to give you a blessing, you are to reject it outright. And of course this is going to offend them. And if one has in their lives at one time accepted prayer from people who are not believers in Jesus Christ the Son of God and are not born again, even had hands laid on them, or even had people reach their hands out to you – all you need to do is repent of your sin through our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, tell Him you are sorry for falling for such tactics- even though you were unaware at the time, the Holy Spirit will make one aware to these things, will convict you and you obey through repentance of sin.
It’s not that what they say will actually come back to them, because it was in them all along – sin. What they say judges them and if they do not repent of their sin, God will judge them personally.
This saying of ‘what you say will come back to you if what you say is not good or even good for that matter will come back to you is reminiscent of karma and the law of return and actually white magic believe it or not.
Most of the time, we believe this stuff because this is what we were told by a Christian pastor in church. But when you read the scriptures you will see that they have taken scripture and twisted it.
It’s like that verse, Death and life are in the power of the tongue , but they fail to mention the rest of the verse(s) – it’s about gossip. And we all know that gossip (lies) can destroy someone. But why does the gossiper gossip? Because, of the sin in their lives. They are already condemned if they do not repent. So it’s not that their gossip will come back to them – the sin in their lives is what alrealy condemns them and repentance through Jesus Christ and acceptance of His sacrifice for us on the cross is the only thing that will set them free.
21 Death and life are in the power of the tongue, And those who love it will eat its fruit.
13 An evil man is ensnared by the transgression of his lips, But the righteous will escape from trouble.
13 The one who guards his mouth preserves his life; The one who opens wide his lips comes to ruin
37 “For by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned.”
See you next year 🙂 And I don’t mean that you must stop commenting here and start again next year…hahaha…you know what I mean.
>> I didn’t even have to argue with you or throw stones at you..
Thank goodness, cos I have a collection of stones that have been thrown at me and I’ve run out of place to put them. They are just piling up here on the side, more blocking the view of the tv if anything ahaha 😉
thanks D! the “left-overs” of certain way of thinking has just gone, and it was so easy. i didn’t even had to argue with you or throw stones at you! I just couldn’t find it in the Word of God! God bless ya! next yr must come quickly! c