Understanding the Trinity: God the Father, Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit

Trinity - God the Father, Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit

Understanding the Trinity is actually very easy and I will explain it to you today.  I will also explain the false teachings out there on what the Trinity is not, so you can understand what you are possibly believing in and change to the correct understanding of what the Trinity is.

The Trinity is ONE God existing in three separate Persons.  Now realise this just because we say three Persons does not mean there are three separate Gods, there is only ONE God. Now the world Trinity is not found in the bible, it is only a word used to describe  the “trinue” Godhead, that being three co-external,  co-existent Persons who make up ONE God.   So it’s not the word Trinity that is of importance, it’s what it represents that’s important.

The following is what God’s Word says about the Trinity:

1) There is ONE God (Deuteronomy 6:4; 1 Corinthians 8:4; Galatians 3:20; 1 Timothy 2:5).

2) The Trinity consists of THREE SEPARATE PERSONS.  See here: (Genesis 1:1,26;3:22;11:7; Isaiah 6:8,48:16,61:1; Matthew 3:16-17,28:19; 2 Corinthians 13:14).

  • In (Genesis 1:1), the plural noun for “Elohim” is used (that meaning more than one). In( Genesis 1:26,3:22,11:7 and Isaiah 6:8), the plural pronoun for “us” is used.  “us” denotes that there is more than one person at the same time.
  • In (Isaiah 48:16 and Isaiah 61:1), Jesus Christ the Son is speaking while making reference to the God the Father and the Holy Spirit.
  • Compare (Isaiah 61:1 to Luke 4:14-19) to see that it is the Jesus Christ the of Son of God speaking.
  • (Matthew 3:16-17) describes Jesus Christ’ baptism. Notice in this passage that the Holy Spirit descends on Jesus Christ the Son while GOD the Father proclaims from heaven that He is happy with His Son.
  • (Matthew 28:19 and 2 Corinthians 13:14) are examples of three distinct Persons in the Trinity.

3) In the Old Testament the members of the Trinity are distinguished one from another in a number of scriptures.

  • Capitalized ‘LORD’ is distinguished separately from “Lord” (Genesis 19:24; Hosea 1:4), in other words, The LORD has a Son (Psalm 2:7,12;Proverbs 30:2-4).
  • The Holy Spirit is distinguished separately from the “LORD” (Numbers 27:18) and from ‘God’ (Psalm 51:10-12).
  • Jesus Christ the Son is distinguished separately from God the Father (Psalm 45:6-7; Hebrews 1:8-9).

In the New Testament

  • In the book of John, Jesus Christ the Son speaks to the God the Father about sending a Helper, that being the Holy Spirit (John 14:16-17).  This tells us that Jesus was not part of the Father or the Holy Spirit but separate.
  • Remember all the occasions in the bible where Jesus Christ speaks to God the Father.  Was He speaking to Himself?  No.  He was speaking to the other person in the Godhead, His Father.

4) Now each Person in the Trinity is God, God the Father (John 6:27; Romans 1:7; 1 Peter 1:2). God the Son (John 1:1,14; Romans 9:5; Colossians 2:9; Hebrews 1:8; 1 John 5:20). and God the Holy Spirit (Acts 5:3-4; 1 Corinthians 3:16). But they are not separate GODS as I mentioned earlier, they are all ONE.

5)  There is actually subordination within the Godhead.

  • The Bible teaches us that the Holy Spirit is subordinate to God the Father and Jesus Christ the Son.
  • Jesus Christ is subordinate to God the Father.

This is how their relationship works and it does not deny the deity of any person within the Godhead.   Concerning Jesus Christ the Son see (Luke 22:42; John 5:36; John 20:21, and 1 John 4:14).  Concerning the Holy Spirit see (John 14:16,14:26; 15:26,16:7, and most importantly see  (John 16:13-14.)

6) The individual persons of the Godhead have different tasks.

  1. God the Father is the ultimate source or cause of the universe (1 Corinthians 8:6; Revelation 4:11);  divine revelation (Revelation 1:1); salvation (John 3:16-17); and Jesus’ human works (John 5:17;14:10). The Father initiates all of these things.
  2. Jesus Christ the Son is the advocate through whom the Father does the following works: the creation and maintenance of the universe (1 Corinthians 8:6; John 1:3; Colossians 1:16-17); divine revelation (John 1:1,16:12-15; Matthew 11:27; Revelation 1:1); and salvation (2 Corinthians 5:19; Matthew 1:21; John 4:42). The Father does all these things through Jesus Christ the Son, who functions as His advocate/agent.
  3. The Holy Spirit is the means by whom the Father does the following works: creation and maintenance of the universe (Genesis 1:2; Job 26:13; Psalm 104:30); divine revelation (John 16:12-15;Ephesians 3:5;2 Peter 1:21); salvation (John 3:6;Titus 3:5;1 Peter 1:2); and Jesus’ works (Isaiah 61:1;Acts 10:38).  Thus, the Father does all these things by the power of the Holy Spirit.

The Trinity of God the Father, Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit

The doctrine of the Trinity has caused much division throughout the history of the entire Christian church, must of it causing Christians to fall of the narrow path and follow deceptive doctrines.  The main aspects of the Godhead are clearly explained in the Word of God that being;  God the Father who is a Spirit (John 4:24), God the Son and God the Holy Spirit are 3 separate Persons within the Godhead and this is the biblical doctrine of the Trinity.

Biblical Trinity vs. Catholic Trinity

Neither Catholics or Jehovah Witnesses understand the difference between 1st Century Biblical Trinity vs. 4th century Creedal Trinity and apparently neither do many Christians today who appear to be very confused on this issue.

  • The Catholic Trinity denies the Bible doctrine of the subordination of Jesus Christ Christ to God the Father.
  • The Catholic Trinity speaks where the Bible was silent in explaining how God is three in one.
  • The Catholic Trinity goes beyond the simple Bible truths of the deity of Jesus Christ and the personality of the Holy Spirit and speculates the “mechanical make-up” of God on almost an “atomic level”.

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Modalism – God the Father, Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit are not manifestations:

There are some false teachings out there, one in particular called Modalism or Sabellianism.  Modalism is a:

Sabellius (fl. ca. 215) was a third century priest and theologian who most likely taught in Rome, but may have been an African from Libya. Basil and others call him a Libyan from Pentapolis, but this seems to rest on the fact that Pentapolis was a place where the teachings of Sabellius thrived, according to Dionysius of Alexandria, c. 260. What is known of Sabellius is drawn mostly from the polemical writings of his opponents.

Sabellius taught that God was single and indivisible, with Father, Son, and Holy Spirit being three modes or manifestations of one divine Person. A Sabellian modalist would say that the One God successively revealed Himself to man throughout time as the Father in Creation; the Son in Redemption; and the Spirit in Sanctification and Regeneration. (Because of this focus on God’s revelation of himself to man, Modalism is often confused with Economic Trinitarianism).  [Emphasis added]

However, Gregg Allison explains modalism was first, tt wasn’t started by a third-century teacher from Rome named Sabellius…but

“introduced by Praxeas in Rome, articulated by Noetus of Smyrna and his disciples Zephyrinus and Callistus (both bishops of Rome), and popularized by Sabellius”   —  Gregg Allison, Historical Theology (p. 235).

Also known as “modalistic monarchianism,” this heretical view:

“… held that there is one God who can be designated by three different names-‘Father,’ ‘Son,’ and ‘Holy Spirit’-at different times, but these three are not distinct persons. Instead they are different modes (thus, modalism) of the one God. Thus, God can be called ‘Father’ as the Creator of the world and Lawgiver; he can be called ‘Son’ as God incarnate in Jesus Christ; and he can be called ‘Holy Spirit’ as God in the church age. Accordingly, Jesus Christ is God and the Spirit is God, but they are not distinct persons.” (Ibid., 235-36). [Emphasis added]

Since the Councils of Nicaea (325) and other councils, modalism has been understood by everyone and by every major branch of orthodox Christianity to be heretical. –

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Does anyone still believe in Modalism ?

Well yes, Oneness Pentecostalism (also known as Apostolic Pentecostalism or One God Pentecostalism) refers to denominations and/or believers, all of whom believe in the  nontrinitarian theological doctrine of Oneness. This movement rose up around 1914 and claims an estimated 24 million followers today.

Father, Son, and Holy Spirit

Oneness teaching asserts that God is a singular spirit who is one person, not three divine persons, individuals or minds. “Father”, “Son” and “Holy Spirit” are merely titles reflecting the different personal manifestations of the One True God in the universe. When Oneness believers speak of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit, they see these as three personal manifestations of one being, one personal God:

Father: The title of God in parental relationship

Son of God: God incarnate in human flesh;[2] “Son” refers to either the humanity and the deity of Jesus together, or to the humanity alone, but never to the deity alone[7]

Holy Spirit: The title of God in activity as Spirit

Oneness teachers often quote a phrase used by early pioneers of the movement – “God was manifested as the Father in creation, the Son in redemption, and the Holy Ghost in emanation.”

Oneness theology sees that when the one personal and omnipresent God manifests or reveals himself, it is in a personal way. Oneness theology sees the Father, Son and Holy Spirit as one transcendent, personal, omnipresent God manifesting himself in three personal and distinct ways or forms to redeem and sanctify sinful and lost humanity, and also that all the fullness of the deity resides fully in the person of Christ. (Col. 2:1-10) — Wiki Oneness Pentecostalism

and

Oneness Pentecostalism teaches that God is one Person, and that the Father (a spirit) is united with Jesus (a man) as the Son of God. However, Oneness Pentecostalism differs somewhat by rejecting sequential modalism, and by the full acceptance of the begotten humanity of the Son, not eternally begotten, who was the man Jesus and was born, crucified, and risen, and not the deity. This directly opposes Patripassianism and the pre-existence of the Son, which Sabellianism does not.

Oneness Pentecostals believe that Jesus was “Son” only when he became flesh on earth, but was the Father before being made man. They refer to the Father as the “Spirit” and the Son as the “Flesh”. But they believe that Jesus and the Father are one essential Person. Though operating as different “manifestations” or “modes”. Oneness Pentecostals reject the Trinity doctrine, viewing it as pagan and un-Scriptural, and hold to the Jesus’ Name doctrine with respect to baptisms. They are often referred to as “Modalists” or “Sabellians” or “Jesus Only”. Oneness Pentecostalism can be compared to Sabellianism, or can be described as holding to a form of Sabellianism, as both are Nontrinitarian, and as both believe that Jesus was “Almighty God in the Flesh”, but they do not totally identify each other.  —http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sabellianism

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T D Jakes is a Modalist: 

T. D. Jakes is part of the Oneness Pentecostal movement.

– The Potter’s House website says this in their doctrinal statement:

“There is one God, Creator of all things, infinitely perfect, and eternally existing in three manifestations: Father, Son and Holy Spirit.”  [Emphasis added]

– According to a 2000 article from Christianity Today, when asked about the doctrine of the Trinity, T. D. Jakes responded:

TD Jakes - Modalist - God the Father, Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit

“The Trinity, the term ‘Trinity,’ is not a biblical term, to begin with. It’s a theological description for something that is so beyond human comprehension that I’m not sure that we can totally hold God to a numerical system. The Lord said, “Behold, O Israel, the Lord thy God is one, and beside him there is no other.” When God got ready to make a man that looked like him, he didn’t make three. He made one man. However, that one man had three parts. He was body, soul, and spirit. We have one God, but he is Father in creation, Son in redemption, and Holy Spirit in regeneration.”  [Emphasis added]

– In a response to the above Christianity Today article (also from 2000), Jakes used this illustration to define his understanding of the Godhead:

“Though no human illustration perfectly fits the Divine, it is similar to ice, water and steam: three separate forms, yet all H²O. Each element can co-exist, each has distinguishing characteristics and functions, but all have sameness.”  [Emphasis added]

Later, in that same article, Jakes denied that his use of the word “manifestations” was rooted in modalism:

“The language in the doctrinal statement of our ministry that refers to the Trinity of the Godhead as “manifestations” does not derive from modalism. The Apostle Paul himself used this term referring to the Godhead in 1 Timothy 3:15, 1 Corinthians 12:7, and 1 John 3:5-8 [sic]. Peter also used the term in 1 Peter 1:20. Can this word now be heresy when it is a direct quote from the Pauline epistles and used elsewhere in the New Testament?”

– However, many Christians were not convinced. In a 2001 article, again in Christianity Today,  TD  Jakes says:

“And God said, ‘Let us. Let usssssss … ‘” says Jakes, and then digresses: ” … One God, but manifest in … three different ways, Father in creation, Son in redemption, Holy Spirit in regeneration. And God said, ‘Let usssssss … ‘”  [Emphasis added]

There we have it again, modalism, this is the view of those in off Oneness Pentecostals, which describes TD Jakes.

– A 2002 Christianity Today article further explained that evangelicals have always regarded Oneness Pentecostalism as being outside the boundaries of orthodox Christianity, noting that “orthodox Christian theologians believe Oneness theology is guilty of the heresy of modalism.”

– In a more recent interview –  2010 interview –  T. D. Jakes suggests that he wants to distance himself from Oneness Pentecostalism. However, he is still very confused when it comes to the Trinity. After prancing around the issue, Jakes finally comes out and says says:

“I believe in the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. I believe that they are three Persons. I believe that in a way that Persons is a limited word for the Godhead. And even those who adhere to that say that to be true. But I think the issue is that they are distinctive. There are things that can be said about the Father that couldn’t be said about the Son and then the Holy Spirit… I believe that. I’ve grown into that, but I came into a Pentecostal church that happened to be Oneness. They loved me at a time that my father died. I became friends with them and in covenant with them and embraced them. And though I don’t agree with everything, and they don’t agree with everything, they’re evolving as a people.’

It actually doesn’t matter what TD Jakes says, he is still a false teacher and is unbiblical on a multitude of other issues besides this issue.   Another things is this, people don’t “evolve”.  As a born again Christian you know the truth as the Holy Spirit tells you what is wrong and what is right and He will not lie to you about how the Trinity is comprised; that being 3 separate co-existing, co-external Persons:  God the Father, Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit as one God.

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Deborah (Discerning the World)

Deborah Ellish is the author of the above article. Discerning the World is an internet Christian Ministry based in Johannesburg South Africa. Tom Lessing and Deborah Ellish both own Discerning the World. For more information see the About this Website page below the comments section.

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James L

[Edited by DTW: Sorry James, but I’m not going to have you come here and spew your false teaching all over this page and corrupt people. Please go elsewhere. Thanks.]

Tom Lessing (Discerning the World)

How would you explain the meaning of the following verse?

And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come. (Mat 12:32)

Is Matthew referring to two distinct and separate Persons or one being who manifests himself in two different modes or forms.

James L

[delete – I know history, I don’t care to know your version James]

Paul (Continue in His Word)

John,

In your comment dated 9 June, 2013 at 11:41 am
you said “This is still a work in progress.”

For you, and anyone for whom this is still a work in progress, you may be interested in watching some of the following youtube debates on the subject, between so-called scholars and not-so scholars. I believe we may gain some insight and maybe a little more light on the matter. I found them insightful.
THIS IS BY NO MEANS AN ENDORSEMENT OF ANY OTHER DOCTRINE BY ANY OF THE DEBATERS. MY SOLE INTEREST IN THOSE DEBATES IS WHAT THE DEBATERS HAVE TO SAY ABOUT THE IDENTITY OF GOD: ABSOLUTELY ONE OR A TRINITY OF PERSONS.

Is God a Unity of Three Persons or Only One Person? (Bennett and Richie)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sU3YTYEAIR8

Oneness Vs. Trinity Debate- David Bernard and Gene Cook
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G6LXshQf2i0

Trinity vs. Oneness Debate – White and Sabin
Part 1 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f_OYdHfdbbo
Part 2 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wL4iz6nPvQs

Godhead, Oneness Vs Trinity Doctrine (Tancock and Sanguinetti)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yTY-aKJv8Us

Oneness vs Trinity (David Bernard vs James White).
1/4 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sNdB83Kh7NM
2/4 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2jkiPtYCUFw
3/4 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T29LSOAWHoc
4/4 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hqu4a2W3_Cg

1985 UPCI Oneness Pentecostal vs Trinitarian Debate.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-iIIaXlcTP0

Andrew on Thomas Doc. 2

Andrew on Thomas
Dear Thomas, before I answer your question, there is something to be said about complaints from John Chingford.
He complains that you are either ignoring or dodging his questions,
I must admit that I had the same experience with you. I’m talking about things that happened over a period of time.
Saying this, I’m not alleging that you have done it on purpose.
What I’m arguing, is that I appreciate the awesome workload that
you are subjected to, and with the responsibility that goes with it, somewhere along the line you are bound to neglect something
by chance, somewhere. So, John and I happened to be the victims of hopefully, a rare negligence occasion.

Now back to your question, as far as I can remember, I’m going to present the question to you, by a parable, by the way I’ve never done it like this before! “Jesus needed help to carry the cross”. Question:
The Jesus, helped here: (1)Was He God the Son; (2) the Son of God;
(3)The Son of man. Answering this question could also be the answer to the first question.

Dear Sharon, What is your response concerning the authenticity of 1Joh. 5:7, I’d like to see it, your welcome to ask anyone. Regards.

Dear Deborah, I’ve always tried to reflect the love, light and the Spirit of Christ in my writings, whether I’ve succeeded, only time will tell.
I want to tell you, I don’t think that you demonstrated the love of Christ during your unpleasant saga with John Chingford. It was unfair to expect from him to abandon his views on the Deity. Flesh and blood, can’t inherit the Kingdom of God and are normally associated with mankind like the “term” Person.

You later cautioned him to stop opposing your views, or else you would delete all his future writings. So you went overboard to put him under undue pressure, and delete his next three writings to which he
succumb. He said he found scripture with the word “Person” but it came out that, that does not appear in the Greek scriptures. But the harm was done. This incident has left a dent on your image.
If apostle Paul were to be in John’s shoes, it would have being a whole different ballgame.

Apart from that I’ve discerned a certain degree of anger, coming to the front from you and from Thomas. I do not like to say this, I am just being honest with you, The judgmental way your comments to dear souls and people, seeking the truth are not necessary. May be you are also overworked, which is normally the causes the stress factor to kick in. I know you have a lot of things to take care of, don’t allow this to influence your normal self, negatively.

I know that I’m preaching the same doctrine in word and deed, as the one proclaimed by Apostle Peter and Paul. So I’ll gladly take the “Heretic” punch from you, knowing I’m in the good company of Apostle’s Paul and Peter, who also baptized by immersion in the Name of Jesus Christ, like myself. It gives me real assurance of salvation, for the mere fact that the command to the first Christian believers, were to be baptized in the Name of Jesus our Savior

And Deborah, I’ve never judged Trinitarian Pentecostals, in fact I am a great fan of The Bill Gaither Vocal Group for the past fourty+ years. The whole cast of this group consists of Trinitarians and Oneness people, like The Happy Goodman’s, the Steer family since 1960
the late Dottie Rambo, on and on, and I love them all, irrespective of their doctrine. Knowing them for so long, I know that they are serving
the living God. What a wonderful group of singers?
Take care.

Andrew wrote:

“Apart from that I’ve discerned a certain degree of anger, coming to the front from you and from Thomas. I do not like to say this, I am just being honest with you, The judgmental way your comments to dear souls and people, seeking the truth are not necessary.”

You are using the oldest trick in the book to try and win an argument. You only need to accuse others of being judgmental and angry and voila you’ve proved that your own comments have always been kind, friendly, uplifting, neighbourly and loving. Nice work.

Andrew says:

Now back to your question, as far as I can remember, I’m going to present the question to you, by a parable, by the way I’ve never done it like this before! “Jesus needed help to carry the cross”. Question:
The Jesus, helped here: (1)Was He God the Son; (2) the Son of God;
(3)The Son of man. Answering this question could also be the answer to the first question.

This is what Paul says about God the Son, the Son of God and the Son of Man (the same Person):

Have this mind among yourselves, which is yours in Christ Jesus, who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped, but emptied himself, by taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men. And being found in human form, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross.(Philippians 2:5-8)

Paul says here that although Jesus is the very essence of God the Father (as God the Son and the Son of God), He was willing to embrace perfect humanity (as the Son of man). He is fully God but was prepared to set/lay aside his rights to deity during his incarnation in order to accomplish the will of his Father. Therefore, as God, fully equal to his Father, He needed no help to carry the cross but to accomplish his mission to the earth to save lost sinners He willingly and obediently set aside his deity and allowed someone to help Him carry his cross. You should know this, Andrew and if you don’t, you don’t know the meaning of Christ’s incarnation.

I too asked a question which you haven’t answered. I won’t turn it into a parable to make it easier for you to understand, which you did so benevolently with your question.

How would you explain the meaning of the following verse?

And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come. (Matthew 12:32)

Is Matthew referring to two distinct and separate Persons or a single Being who manifests himself in two different modes or forms?

If Jesus’ words in John 7:38 is the litmus test for salvation then the Oneness gospel has a problem because they do not believe as the Scriptures hath said.

Sharon

My response to you will be mostly from the Word. I’m not sure exactly why you are asking me this but the Apostle John is giving true, Scripture teaching on God the Father (our Abba) God the Word (Jesus) and God the Holy Spirit (Comforter/Indweller) Those three are One as in Deuteronomy 6:4 Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD:
Does that mean Jesus didn’t exist back then? No, of course it doesn’t mean that. Who walked with Adam & Eve in the Garden of Eden? God is a spirit, so it was Jesus walking with them. Who was God talking to at Babel when He said, Let US go down? Whose backside did Moses see when God hid him in the Cleft of the Rock, that was Jesus Christ. God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit. These three are One. The One is Three. God has three clear and distinctive personalities. They have three jobs so to speak. The Holy Spirit could not come until Jesus went back to heaven. That tells me that only One part of the Trinity can be on earth at a time. Jesus spoke of the Father sometimes of Himself and also the Holy Spirit. That’s three from the mouth of one of them.

1st John 5:4 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.
1st John 5:5 Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?
1st John 5:6 This is he that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth.
1st John 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.
1st John 5:8 And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.
1st John 5:9 If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater: for this is the witness of God which he hath testified of his Son.
1st John 5:10 He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son.
1st John 5:11 And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.
1st John 5:12 He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.
1st John 5:13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

Sharon

I want to answer Andrews comment to me and I pray I say the correct thing and in the right spirit. So, here we go.

You have bad news for me concerning what I said about 1st John 5:7? This verse according to you and your 1957 Interlinear Nestle’ Greek/English Translation was a “heading of some kind so somebody let this heading slip in.” So what did this Translation say was the “kind of heading” and who was the “sinister somebody” that let his heading “slip in.” The “Bible Scholars” have known this for some 40 years now and you’re surprised that I didn’t know about it.

Andrew, with all respect; I will take the Word of God in the 1611 King James Bible over your 1957 Translation of any version. The King James is not new, it is not modern, but it has stood the test of time. Will your 1957 Translation last over 400 years and still be as relevant as our Eternal God? I think not.

I am not a Bible Scholar. I am a 58 year old mother of two, grandmother of 4 that has absolutely been crazy in love with my Savior Jesus Christ. My Savior gave me a passion for the Word of God starting when I was 14 years old. I know what I believe and why I believe it. I am a Literalist when it comes to the Word of God.If the verse makes sense then seek no other sense. The Apostle John wrote this verse: 1John 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.
The he wrote it for a reason. The man had seen heaven while on the Isle of Patmos. He saw the on/three in this vision. Here is an article that I received permission to copy and share.

I do not know how old you are Andrew…take God’s Word for what it says. You can “dictionary yourself to death.” We are to Study to show ourselves approved unto God. Study the Bible and don’t worry so much about what the “scholars” have to say.

1 John 5:7 and the King James Bible Controversy

Why Do The Modern Versions Hate This Verse So Much?

“For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.” 1 John 5:7

1 John 5:7 is probably one of the most controversial verses in the Bible. The reason it is so controversial is that all the modern translations, except the New King James, remove this verse. But, even the NKJV has a footnote with this verse saying the it is not found in the oldest Greek manuscripts. This could cause serious doubt in the reader’s mind that this verse is the word of God. This verse was never controversial until the modern translations.

The problem is the modern translations come from a different Greek underlining manuscript than the King James Bible. The KJV uses the Greek Textus Receptus, while the modern scholars reject this manuscript. This results in the modern translations missing the equivalent of the Book of Ephesians and changing words like “only begotten Son” into “one and only Son”. One of the missing verses is 1 John 5:7.

I believe the modern translations have tampered with the very word of God, which is beyond serious. I want to take a look at the internal evidence that 1 John 5:7 is indeed the very word of God and belongs in the Bible, just as it is found in the tried and true King James Bible.

I was recently studying 1 John 5 and came across some interesting information that I never realized. I had never actually studied verse 7, but just looked at it as one of the proofs of the Holy Trinity. The first time, I actually studied it and asked myself what is the RECORD that the Father, Word and Holy Ghost are bearing record in heaven? To my amazement, I did not know. The following is a brief study to show what is this record and how important it is to our salvation in the Lord Jesus Christ.

Scriptural proof for the inclusion of 1 John 5:7

1John 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. (In heaven the Godhead bears record but with just this verse it is not clear what is the record. In context, it has to do something with the Lord Jesus Christ.)

1John 5:8 And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one. (On earth, the Holy Spirit agrees in one with the water and the blood. Again, this has to do with the Lord Jesus’ ministry but exactly what is not mentioned.)

1John 5:9 If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater: for this is the witness of God which he hath testified of his Son. (The witness of the Holy Spirit is greater than any witness of men. The witness has to do about the ministry of the Lord Jesus here on earth.)

1John 5:10 He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son. (This is a very strong verse. It states that anyone who does not believe the record that God gave of His Son makes God a liar! I cannot imagine a verse stronger than this. This is so serious that the record is settled in heaven between the Godhead! But, we still do not know what is this record, but only that the Godhead bears witness to it in heaven.)

1John 5:11 And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.
(Now the record is revealed. The record that the Godhead agrees in heaven is that WE HAVE ETERNAL LIFE IN THE ONLY BEGOTTEN SON OF GOD! Our salvation in the Lord Jesus Christ is secure because the Godhead is in total agreement and the blood and water of the Lord Jesus on earth bear witness to the record in heaven.)

Don’t mess around with Revelation 22

If verse 7 is removed, then the record of agreement by the Godhead in heaven is also removed! Verse 7 is not a mere proof of the Trinity, it is really a proof that believers have total assurance of eternal life, when they are in the Son of God! God bears record in heaven that we have eternal life! The proof of the Blessed Trinity is actually a side issue which I had never realized.

How dare these modern translations tamper with 1 John 5:7, as they tamper with the actual record in heaven that I have eternal life through my Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. It is probably the strongest verse in all the Bible for the assurance of eternal life in the Blessed Redeemer. I would never compromise the authority of this verse for any reason.

While contemplating this verse suddenly Revelation 22:19 came to mind…

Revelation 22:19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

This verse states if ANYONE removes words from the Bible, God will remove that person’s name from the Book of Life. I believe that this warning is not limited to the Book of Revelation but the entire Bible.

The first verse that those who reject the authority of KJV point to is 1John 5:7. They claim it was added and is not part of the word of God. This verse happens to be the strongest verse in the Bible showing that the complete Godhead bears record to our eternal life in heaven!

How very sad that removal of 1 John 5:7 removes God bearing record in heaven for these people because it is NOT in their translations! How ironic, that by applying Revelation 22:18 to those that reject 1John 5:7, God does not bear record in heaven; therefore, their name is removed from the Book of Life. The very verse removed from these translations is the very verse which damns them, and it is exactly as Revelation 22:19 states would happen.
I cannot emphasis how serious it is to tamper with the word of God. Please flee from these modern translations as they are promoting deception and are missing an enormous amount of verses along with altering the meaning of words.

Just look at the subtle change in this one verse:
KJV: Luke 4:18 The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised,
NIV: Luke 4:18 The Spirit of the Lord is on me, because he has anointed me to proclaim good news to the poor. He has sent me to proclaim freedom for the prisoners and recovery of sight for the blind, to set the oppressed free,
God’s Holy Spirit would never remove “he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted” from the word of God. This verse alone shows how corrupted the modern translations are.

May the Holy God of Israel bless you as you rest in the fact that in heaven the Godhead is bearing record that you have eternal life.

article written by J. McTernan

Copied by Permission of: Geoffrey Grider
Editor-in-Chief
of http://www.nowtheendbegins.com

Andrew said: “I do have a few remarks on what Sharon said about 1John. 5:7 . I have some bad news for you, this verse use to be a heading of some kind, so somebody, let this heading slip in, to become part of scripture. This has being known by any bible scholar of the past forty years. This sinister act happened more than four hundred years ago. In my Interlinear Nestlé Greek/English Translation printed in 1957, there is no trace of it. I’m just surprised that nobody has told you about it. The only new bibles that are using the old wrong translation, are the Roman Catholic bible. Thus it lacks Authenticity!”

Andrew on Thomas Doc. 2

Dear Thomas, I would like to answer Sharon on 1John. 5:7, My dear these Translators were trinitarians, why would they shoot themselves in the foot? They were just doing their job’s by being honest. It is very interesting, that none of the experts defending the trinity in debates, ever uses this scripture as evidence, so please do not try to blame it on the translators. Sharon, you asked about my age, well my dear I’m seventy four years and eight months young, on the dot.
Now to Thomas, It is very unkind of you for even suggesting I was pulling a trick on you, while answering your question. I could really take this as an insult, for you not believing in my sincerity, but I’ll forgive you,(which you will also see as a Trick) Now back to what you said in your remarks on Phillipians 2:5-8, “Paul says here that although Jesus is the very essence of God the Father (as God the Father and the Son of God)”???? You are adding to scripture!! You assume!!!Where did you find the (words) God the Father, God the Son(for obvious reasons)
Son of God.
You have a big problem with us when we talk about the manifistations of God.

Let me quote to you:1Tim, 3:16
And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preaced unto the Gentiles, believed in the world, received up in glory.
It does not say GOD the SON, I repeat it does not say GOD the Son was manifest, here’s that word again, MANIFEST. My friend concerning that question, let me just advise you, if I may, read that portion of scripture Matthew 12:32 from verse twenty till the last verse to see the context.
I can answer that question, God knows. But after seeing the way you manhandled, Paul’s clear, good and solid answer to John’s question on “persons’Heb.:1-3, after he must have spent a lot of time to deliver such a PERFECT answer! So you without further ado steamrolled his PERFECT answer and replaced it with your version which were very unconvincing, to say the least. For that reason and that reason only, please do’nt expect me to waist any more time on this issue! And I really pray that God will lead you to eventual Spirital maturity.

You’re right. You are wasting my time. So let’s call it a day. If you cannot see that Matthew 12:32 refers to two distinct and separate Persons, the One that warrants inevitable damnation in hell when you speak out against Him (the Holy Spirit) and One who does not warrant eternal damnation when you speak out against Him (the Son of God), then you will never understand. Then, we should seriously think of applying the following truth to your comments: ” . . . Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.” (2 Timothy 3:7)

Sharon

Why would I blame the Translators for anything? These men were the very best of the very best. They believed they were handling the very Word of God. All of them were fluent in Greek (the received text Greek), Hebrew, Aramaic, Latin and others. King James himself spoke at least six different languages. These men were Trinitarian because they knew that is what Holy Scripture teaches. So why would they believe anything else?

John20:17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

Then Jesus Called the Holy Spirit…the Holy Spirit.
John14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
John 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
John15:26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:

So Jesus speaks and prays to God the Father. Jesus says when the Comforter (the Holy Spirit) comes that HE will teach you of me.

God the Father, God the Son, God the Holy Spirit, they all speak of each other.
It doesn’t get any plainer than that.

You will never change the hearts & minds of myself, Deb, John, all Trinitarians that Scripture is wrong.

At your age Andrew you should know better. Andrew, Peter’s brother believed in the Trinity. After all, he knew one part of it in Person.

Stick a fork in me cause I am done with discussing this with you.

Andrew on Thomas Doc. 2 wrote:

Dear Thomas, I would like to answer Sharon on 1John. 5:7, My dear these Translators were trinitarians, why would they shoot themselves in the foot? They were just doing their job’s by being honest. It is very interesting, that none of the experts defending the trinity in debates, ever uses this scripture as evidence, so please do not try to blame it on the translators. Sharon, you asked about my age, well my dear I’m seventy four years and eight months young, on the dot.
Now to Thomas, It is very unkind of you for even suggesting I was pulling a trick on you, while answering your question. I could really take this as an insult, for you not believing in my sincerity, but I’ll forgive you,(which you will also see as a Trick) Now back to what you said in your remarks on Phillipians 2:5-8, “Paul says here that although Jesus is the very essence of God the Father (as God the Father and the Son of God)”???? You are adding to scripture!! You assume!!!Where did you find the (words) God the Father, God the Son(for obvious reasons)
Son of God.
You have a big problem with us when we talk about the manifistations of God.

Let me quote to you:1Tim, 3:16
And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preaced unto the Gentiles, believed in the world, received up in glory.
It does not say GOD the SON, I repeat it does not say GOD the Son was manifest, here’s that word again, MANIFEST. My friend concerning that question, let me just advise you, if I may, read that portion of scripture Matthew 12:32 from verse twenty till the last verse to see the context.
I can answer that question, God knows. But after seeing the way you manhandled, Paul’s clear, good and solid answer to John’s question on “persons’Heb.:1-3, after he must have spent a lot of time to deliver such a PERFECT answer! So you without further ado steamrolled his PERFECT answer and replaced it with your version which were very unconvincing, to say the least. For that reason and that reason only, please do’nt expect me to waist any more time on this issue! And I really pray that God will lead you to eventual Spirital maturity.

Paul (Continue in His Word)

Dear All,

I humbly and lovingly ask you to consider the following.

I am almost finished reading this book:
“God is One and Christ is All: Biblical Truth Against the Trinity” by Tom Raddatz.
[removed]

The Book Description on Amazon is the following:

In “God is One & Christ is All” the original apostle’s view of Jesus Christ and his relationship to God is set forth and declared over and against the Trinity dogma. This book thoroughly exposes, in understandable language, the un-biblical nature of the Trinity. The development of the Trinity is called to account for adopting pagan, philosophical and even anti-Christian (Gnostic) views of God and Christ. The concepts underpinning the Trinity are openly listed and dealt with and compared with Biblical concepts. Ultimately, the evidence presented proves conclusively that the Trinity dogma is not a Biblical dogma. Rather, it is a man-made falsehood that is contrary to the Jesus that the apostles admonished all men to believe in for salvation. In particular the Bible clearly describes 1) God’s immaterial characteristics, 2) God’s descriptive names, 3) God’s passion for His people, and 4) God’s absolute foreknowledge. The anti-Christians rejected each one of these biblical concepts and replaced them with pagan and philosophical views. Those non-biblical views see God, instead, as 1) having a corporeal nature, 2) being unnamable (or ineffable), 3) incapable of any passion, and 4) that the divine realm is occupied with multiple, pre-existent, divine persons. In developing the Trinity dogma, men such as Justin Martyr, Tertullian, Origen, Athanasius and many others absolutely rejected the simple, biblically described, apostolic view of Christ. The ultimate goal for this book, of course, is to restore believers in Christ to the simple, pure, undiluted faith once delivered by Jesus Christ through his apostles.

The Kindle edition on Amazon is only 0.96$ [removed] and there is a FREE sample available on amazon at [removed]

If you start reading it, I please ask you do not judge too quickly before you are finished reading Section 4 (the most important part of the book)
You may disagree with the author, but my plea is that at least you consider what he has to say then judge for yourself.

Prov 18:13
He that answereth a matter before he heareth it, it is folly and shame unto him.

P.S. My life has been turned completely upside down by what I learned in this book. It is not just about the Trinity, it goes deeper than that. Again, not until I have finished Section 4.

Paul (Continue in His Word)

Debs wrote:
>>Why are you letting this book change your life, only the bible should do that.

Let me correct what I said:
“I came under the conviction of the Holy Spirit that the author of this book has rightly divided the Word of Truth in the subject matter he covers in the book”
It is not the book nor its author who has turned my life upside down, but the testimony of the Holy Spirit.

Maybe you are “answering the matter” too quikly “before hearing it”? Maybe try at least the free sample which gives you almost the first five chapters of the book, before answering?

Debs, you and I certainly agree that God has gifted certain men and women to teach and expound Scripture by rightly dividing the Word. So we should not automatically reject any human teaching, and yes, our ultimate authority is the Bible.

Marlene

Wanneer my man in die oggend wakker word dan is hy my “eggenoot”, wanneer die kinders hom sien dan is hy hulle “pappa”, wanneer hy by sy werk kom dan is hy “Dr. van der Merwe”, maar eintlik is hy maar net een persoon wat verskillende “hoede” dra! Maak dit nie meer sense nie?

Tom Lessing (Discerning the World)

Marlene wrote:

Wanneer my man in die oggend wakker word dan is hy my “eggenoot”, wanneer die kinders hom sien dan is hy hulle “pappa”, wanneer hy by sy werk kom dan is hy “Dr. van der Merwe”, maar eintlik is hy maar net een persoon wat verskillende “hoede” dra! Maak dit nie meer sense nie?

God die Drie Eenheid is nie ‘n enkeling wat verskillende hoedens dra nie. HY is GOD in drie Persone – God die Vader, God die Seun en God die Heilige Gees.

Redeemed

Paul, do you know anything about the author of the book you are promoting?
I have done research on the author and his cohorts. It sounds very much like the “Jesus Only” false teaching mingled with emergent.
You are reckless in your endorsements and your statements.
If you had done your research you would know that the book is connected to a group called the “Organic Church”. There is information about it but I am reluctant to post a link. All one has to do is search for Milt Rodriguez, the Organic Church. Rodriguez promotes Haller, the author you so trust along with Leonard Sweet and other emergent authors and blogs.

Paul, I am rebuking you in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ for your lack of discernment and issuing a WARNING that the book you extol is dangerous and toxic. The teaching is very subtle in it’s error, but that is the most dangerous.

Paul you are going to broken cisterns for your information, tainted wells and not only that strongly encouraging others to taste and drink. Shalme, shame, shame!

Tom Lessing (Discerning the World)

Redeemed wrote:

Paul you are going to broken cisterns for your information, tainted wells and not only that strongly encouraging others to taste and drink. Shalme, shame, shame!

Isn’t it absolutely amazing to what extreme measures people will go to substantiate their heresies? It just shows you how dangerous deception can be. No wonder Jesus warned us: “Take heed that no man deceive you.” Deception is far more dangerous than wars, pestilence, famines, and earthquakes.

I urge you to repent, Paul. It is NOT the will of God that you fall into error. It is not the Holy Spirit that convicted you that the author of this book has rightly divided the Word of Truth in the subject matter he covers in the book. It is another spirit who is promoting another Jesus and another gospel.

Redeemed

Something very strange has happened here. I made a mistake. Don’t misunderstand, that is not the strange part because I readily admit that I often make mistakes.

I searched based on the title of the book Paul promoted, not the author. I came up with a book with a similar title as the one Paul listed, but a different author. That author was promoting a oneness concept and it was coupled with emergent thought.

I discovered my mistake when I went back and noticed that the book that Paul was promoting was by a different author, Tom Raddatz, not the author of the book I mentioned in my comments.

The strange thing is that both authors, although much different in backgrounds apparently are both supportive of the oneness concept of God and Raddatz is adamantly against Trinitarianism.

First, I humbly apologize for my error. But at the same time, it is almost as if it was supposed to happen. (I wish that was the case with all my mistakes.) Bit of humor there.

This guy Raddatz and his co-authors are not easy to track to see what is driving their opposition to the Trinity. I finally did find Raddatz’s obscure website. I am going to give the link so that he can easily be discredited.
http://www.1lord1faith.org/wm/watchman.htm

He is a Oneness KJV Only Pentecostal! This guy is on a vendetta to trash the Trinity. He says it is evil! He twists and distorts Bible verses.

Although I did make a mistake, my rebuke still stands because this author that Paul so admires is confused, deluded and dangerous.

Paul (Continue in His Word)

[delete- stop forcing your false teaching on us]

Rick

[EDTIED – READ THE ARTICLE!]

Hester

Bruce Milne writes and I agree. “To reflect upon God in his three-in-oneness, Father, Son, Spirit, in their distinguishable persons and functions yet perfect unity and harmony in mutual, everlasting love, is to catch a vision of something so unspeakable glorious, even beautiful and attractive, that it has ever and again down the centuries moved men and women to the heights of adoring worship, love and praise.

Holy, holy, holy, merciful and mighty.
God in three persons, blessed Trinity!”

Paul (Continue in His Word)

Debs,
I only wanted to stimulate a genuine debate over this critical theological issue which is the identity of the Father and of the Son and the relationship between them.

I believe it is not such a simple and easy issue as you may want to make it appear.
I do not believe the Trinity is in the Bible.

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