Understanding the Trinity: God the Father, Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit

Trinity - God the Father, Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit

Understanding the Trinity is actually very easy and I will explain it to you today.  I will also explain the false teachings out there on what the Trinity is not, so you can understand what you are possibly believing in and change to the correct understanding of what the Trinity is.

The Trinity is ONE God existing in three separate Persons.  Now realise this just because we say three Persons does not mean there are three separate Gods, there is only ONE God. Now the world Trinity is not found in the bible, it is only a word used to describe  the “trinue” Godhead, that being three co-external,  co-existent Persons who make up ONE God.   So it’s not the word Trinity that is of importance, it’s what it represents that’s important.

The following is what God’s Word says about the Trinity:

1) There is ONE God (Deuteronomy 6:4; 1 Corinthians 8:4; Galatians 3:20; 1 Timothy 2:5).

2) The Trinity consists of THREE SEPARATE PERSONS.  See here: (Genesis 1:1,26;3:22;11:7; Isaiah 6:8,48:16,61:1; Matthew 3:16-17,28:19; 2 Corinthians 13:14).

  • In (Genesis 1:1), the plural noun for “Elohim” is used (that meaning more than one). In( Genesis 1:26,3:22,11:7 and Isaiah 6:8), the plural pronoun for “us” is used.  “us” denotes that there is more than one person at the same time.
  • In (Isaiah 48:16 and Isaiah 61:1), Jesus Christ the Son is speaking while making reference to the God the Father and the Holy Spirit.
  • Compare (Isaiah 61:1 to Luke 4:14-19) to see that it is the Jesus Christ the of Son of God speaking.
  • (Matthew 3:16-17) describes Jesus Christ’ baptism. Notice in this passage that the Holy Spirit descends on Jesus Christ the Son while GOD the Father proclaims from heaven that He is happy with His Son.
  • (Matthew 28:19 and 2 Corinthians 13:14) are examples of three distinct Persons in the Trinity.

3) In the Old Testament the members of the Trinity are distinguished one from another in a number of scriptures.

  • Capitalized ‘LORD’ is distinguished separately from “Lord” (Genesis 19:24; Hosea 1:4), in other words, The LORD has a Son (Psalm 2:7,12;Proverbs 30:2-4).
  • The Holy Spirit is distinguished separately from the “LORD” (Numbers 27:18) and from ‘God’ (Psalm 51:10-12).
  • Jesus Christ the Son is distinguished separately from God the Father (Psalm 45:6-7; Hebrews 1:8-9).

In the New Testament

  • In the book of John, Jesus Christ the Son speaks to the God the Father about sending a Helper, that being the Holy Spirit (John 14:16-17).  This tells us that Jesus was not part of the Father or the Holy Spirit but separate.
  • Remember all the occasions in the bible where Jesus Christ speaks to God the Father.  Was He speaking to Himself?  No.  He was speaking to the other person in the Godhead, His Father.

4) Now each Person in the Trinity is God, God the Father (John 6:27; Romans 1:7; 1 Peter 1:2). God the Son (John 1:1,14; Romans 9:5; Colossians 2:9; Hebrews 1:8; 1 John 5:20). and God the Holy Spirit (Acts 5:3-4; 1 Corinthians 3:16). But they are not separate GODS as I mentioned earlier, they are all ONE.

5)  There is actually subordination within the Godhead.

  • The Bible teaches us that the Holy Spirit is subordinate to God the Father and Jesus Christ the Son.
  • Jesus Christ is subordinate to God the Father.

This is how their relationship works and it does not deny the deity of any person within the Godhead.   Concerning Jesus Christ the Son see (Luke 22:42; John 5:36; John 20:21, and 1 John 4:14).  Concerning the Holy Spirit see (John 14:16,14:26; 15:26,16:7, and most importantly see  (John 16:13-14.)

6) The individual persons of the Godhead have different tasks.

  1. God the Father is the ultimate source or cause of the universe (1 Corinthians 8:6; Revelation 4:11);  divine revelation (Revelation 1:1); salvation (John 3:16-17); and Jesus’ human works (John 5:17;14:10). The Father initiates all of these things.
  2. Jesus Christ the Son is the advocate through whom the Father does the following works: the creation and maintenance of the universe (1 Corinthians 8:6; John 1:3; Colossians 1:16-17); divine revelation (John 1:1,16:12-15; Matthew 11:27; Revelation 1:1); and salvation (2 Corinthians 5:19; Matthew 1:21; John 4:42). The Father does all these things through Jesus Christ the Son, who functions as His advocate/agent.
  3. The Holy Spirit is the means by whom the Father does the following works: creation and maintenance of the universe (Genesis 1:2; Job 26:13; Psalm 104:30); divine revelation (John 16:12-15;Ephesians 3:5;2 Peter 1:21); salvation (John 3:6;Titus 3:5;1 Peter 1:2); and Jesus’ works (Isaiah 61:1;Acts 10:38).  Thus, the Father does all these things by the power of the Holy Spirit.

The Trinity of God the Father, Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit

The doctrine of the Trinity has caused much division throughout the history of the entire Christian church, must of it causing Christians to fall of the narrow path and follow deceptive doctrines.  The main aspects of the Godhead are clearly explained in the Word of God that being;  God the Father who is a Spirit (John 4:24), God the Son and God the Holy Spirit are 3 separate Persons within the Godhead and this is the biblical doctrine of the Trinity.

Biblical Trinity vs. Catholic Trinity

Neither Catholics or Jehovah Witnesses understand the difference between 1st Century Biblical Trinity vs. 4th century Creedal Trinity and apparently neither do many Christians today who appear to be very confused on this issue.

  • The Catholic Trinity denies the Bible doctrine of the subordination of Jesus Christ Christ to God the Father.
  • The Catholic Trinity speaks where the Bible was silent in explaining how God is three in one.
  • The Catholic Trinity goes beyond the simple Bible truths of the deity of Jesus Christ and the personality of the Holy Spirit and speculates the “mechanical make-up” of God on almost an “atomic level”.

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Modalism – God the Father, Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit are not manifestations:

There are some false teachings out there, one in particular called Modalism or Sabellianism.  Modalism is a:

Sabellius (fl. ca. 215) was a third century priest and theologian who most likely taught in Rome, but may have been an African from Libya. Basil and others call him a Libyan from Pentapolis, but this seems to rest on the fact that Pentapolis was a place where the teachings of Sabellius thrived, according to Dionysius of Alexandria, c. 260. What is known of Sabellius is drawn mostly from the polemical writings of his opponents.

Sabellius taught that God was single and indivisible, with Father, Son, and Holy Spirit being three modes or manifestations of one divine Person. A Sabellian modalist would say that the One God successively revealed Himself to man throughout time as the Father in Creation; the Son in Redemption; and the Spirit in Sanctification and Regeneration. (Because of this focus on God’s revelation of himself to man, Modalism is often confused with Economic Trinitarianism).  [Emphasis added]

However, Gregg Allison explains modalism was first, tt wasn’t started by a third-century teacher from Rome named Sabellius…but

“introduced by Praxeas in Rome, articulated by Noetus of Smyrna and his disciples Zephyrinus and Callistus (both bishops of Rome), and popularized by Sabellius”   —  Gregg Allison, Historical Theology (p. 235).

Also known as “modalistic monarchianism,” this heretical view:

“… held that there is one God who can be designated by three different names-‘Father,’ ‘Son,’ and ‘Holy Spirit’-at different times, but these three are not distinct persons. Instead they are different modes (thus, modalism) of the one God. Thus, God can be called ‘Father’ as the Creator of the world and Lawgiver; he can be called ‘Son’ as God incarnate in Jesus Christ; and he can be called ‘Holy Spirit’ as God in the church age. Accordingly, Jesus Christ is God and the Spirit is God, but they are not distinct persons.” (Ibid., 235-36). [Emphasis added]

Since the Councils of Nicaea (325) and other councils, modalism has been understood by everyone and by every major branch of orthodox Christianity to be heretical. –

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Does anyone still believe in Modalism ?

Well yes, Oneness Pentecostalism (also known as Apostolic Pentecostalism or One God Pentecostalism) refers to denominations and/or believers, all of whom believe in the  nontrinitarian theological doctrine of Oneness. This movement rose up around 1914 and claims an estimated 24 million followers today.

Father, Son, and Holy Spirit

Oneness teaching asserts that God is a singular spirit who is one person, not three divine persons, individuals or minds. “Father”, “Son” and “Holy Spirit” are merely titles reflecting the different personal manifestations of the One True God in the universe. When Oneness believers speak of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit, they see these as three personal manifestations of one being, one personal God:

Father: The title of God in parental relationship

Son of God: God incarnate in human flesh;[2] “Son” refers to either the humanity and the deity of Jesus together, or to the humanity alone, but never to the deity alone[7]

Holy Spirit: The title of God in activity as Spirit

Oneness teachers often quote a phrase used by early pioneers of the movement – “God was manifested as the Father in creation, the Son in redemption, and the Holy Ghost in emanation.”

Oneness theology sees that when the one personal and omnipresent God manifests or reveals himself, it is in a personal way. Oneness theology sees the Father, Son and Holy Spirit as one transcendent, personal, omnipresent God manifesting himself in three personal and distinct ways or forms to redeem and sanctify sinful and lost humanity, and also that all the fullness of the deity resides fully in the person of Christ. (Col. 2:1-10) — Wiki Oneness Pentecostalism

and

Oneness Pentecostalism teaches that God is one Person, and that the Father (a spirit) is united with Jesus (a man) as the Son of God. However, Oneness Pentecostalism differs somewhat by rejecting sequential modalism, and by the full acceptance of the begotten humanity of the Son, not eternally begotten, who was the man Jesus and was born, crucified, and risen, and not the deity. This directly opposes Patripassianism and the pre-existence of the Son, which Sabellianism does not.

Oneness Pentecostals believe that Jesus was “Son” only when he became flesh on earth, but was the Father before being made man. They refer to the Father as the “Spirit” and the Son as the “Flesh”. But they believe that Jesus and the Father are one essential Person. Though operating as different “manifestations” or “modes”. Oneness Pentecostals reject the Trinity doctrine, viewing it as pagan and un-Scriptural, and hold to the Jesus’ Name doctrine with respect to baptisms. They are often referred to as “Modalists” or “Sabellians” or “Jesus Only”. Oneness Pentecostalism can be compared to Sabellianism, or can be described as holding to a form of Sabellianism, as both are Nontrinitarian, and as both believe that Jesus was “Almighty God in the Flesh”, but they do not totally identify each other.  —http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sabellianism

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T D Jakes is a Modalist: 

T. D. Jakes is part of the Oneness Pentecostal movement.

– The Potter’s House website says this in their doctrinal statement:

“There is one God, Creator of all things, infinitely perfect, and eternally existing in three manifestations: Father, Son and Holy Spirit.”  [Emphasis added]

– According to a 2000 article from Christianity Today, when asked about the doctrine of the Trinity, T. D. Jakes responded:

TD Jakes - Modalist - God the Father, Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit

“The Trinity, the term ‘Trinity,’ is not a biblical term, to begin with. It’s a theological description for something that is so beyond human comprehension that I’m not sure that we can totally hold God to a numerical system. The Lord said, “Behold, O Israel, the Lord thy God is one, and beside him there is no other.” When God got ready to make a man that looked like him, he didn’t make three. He made one man. However, that one man had three parts. He was body, soul, and spirit. We have one God, but he is Father in creation, Son in redemption, and Holy Spirit in regeneration.”  [Emphasis added]

– In a response to the above Christianity Today article (also from 2000), Jakes used this illustration to define his understanding of the Godhead:

“Though no human illustration perfectly fits the Divine, it is similar to ice, water and steam: three separate forms, yet all H²O. Each element can co-exist, each has distinguishing characteristics and functions, but all have sameness.”  [Emphasis added]

Later, in that same article, Jakes denied that his use of the word “manifestations” was rooted in modalism:

“The language in the doctrinal statement of our ministry that refers to the Trinity of the Godhead as “manifestations” does not derive from modalism. The Apostle Paul himself used this term referring to the Godhead in 1 Timothy 3:15, 1 Corinthians 12:7, and 1 John 3:5-8 [sic]. Peter also used the term in 1 Peter 1:20. Can this word now be heresy when it is a direct quote from the Pauline epistles and used elsewhere in the New Testament?”

– However, many Christians were not convinced. In a 2001 article, again in Christianity Today,  TD  Jakes says:

“And God said, ‘Let us. Let usssssss … ‘” says Jakes, and then digresses: ” … One God, but manifest in … three different ways, Father in creation, Son in redemption, Holy Spirit in regeneration. And God said, ‘Let usssssss … ‘”  [Emphasis added]

There we have it again, modalism, this is the view of those in off Oneness Pentecostals, which describes TD Jakes.

– A 2002 Christianity Today article further explained that evangelicals have always regarded Oneness Pentecostalism as being outside the boundaries of orthodox Christianity, noting that “orthodox Christian theologians believe Oneness theology is guilty of the heresy of modalism.”

– In a more recent interview –  2010 interview –  T. D. Jakes suggests that he wants to distance himself from Oneness Pentecostalism. However, he is still very confused when it comes to the Trinity. After prancing around the issue, Jakes finally comes out and says says:

“I believe in the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. I believe that they are three Persons. I believe that in a way that Persons is a limited word for the Godhead. And even those who adhere to that say that to be true. But I think the issue is that they are distinctive. There are things that can be said about the Father that couldn’t be said about the Son and then the Holy Spirit… I believe that. I’ve grown into that, but I came into a Pentecostal church that happened to be Oneness. They loved me at a time that my father died. I became friends with them and in covenant with them and embraced them. And though I don’t agree with everything, and they don’t agree with everything, they’re evolving as a people.’

It actually doesn’t matter what TD Jakes says, he is still a false teacher and is unbiblical on a multitude of other issues besides this issue.   Another things is this, people don’t “evolve”.  As a born again Christian you know the truth as the Holy Spirit tells you what is wrong and what is right and He will not lie to you about how the Trinity is comprised; that being 3 separate co-existing, co-external Persons:  God the Father, Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit as one God.

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Deborah (Discerning the World)

Deborah Ellish is the author of the above article. Discerning the World is an internet Christian Ministry based in Johannesburg South Africa. Tom Lessing and Deborah Ellish both own Discerning the World. For more information see the About this Website page below the comments section.

108 Responses

  1. Andrew says:

    [Edited: Commented moved from Calvinists Justify the Known Murderer, John Calvin.]
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    Liewe Sheugnet, jy sê Servetus was hoofsaaklik doodgemaak omdat hy die drie-eenheid van God, wat algemeen aanvaar was daardie dae soos nou teëgestaan het.
    Dan sê jy verder hy, Servetus het die Woord van God reg verstaan en aanvaar dat God een is, en nie die populêre drie nie! Verstaan ek jou nou reg. Servetus is vermoor omdat hy die Woord REG verstaan het! Calvyn was ‘n
    gewetenlose moordenaar, “finish en klaar.”
    Terloops, Paulus verklaar in Efese 4:5 “een Here, een geloof en een doop.” Jy kan nie net glo wat jy wil nie. Verder “Alles wat jy doen in woord of in daad, doen dit in die Naam van die Here Jesus, en dank God die Vader deur Hom.” hy Servetus was na my beskeie mening in alle opsigte soos die doop en sg. uitverkiesing, baie nader aan die waarheid as Calvyn.

  2. [Edited: Commented moved from Calvinists Justify the Known Murderer, John Calvin.]
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    Andrew wrote:

    Sheugnet, het jy geweet dat die “God in drie persone” konsep deur ‘n songod aanbidder met die naam van Konstantyn ‘n Romeinse Keiser, geproklameer en bekragtig is?
    Wil jy liewer glo wat hy en sy trawante wat miljoene Christene wat nie hul knie voor Baal wou buig, nie op die wreedste manier denkbaar vermoor het? Wat lees ons in Deut.6:4 Hoor Israel die HERE onse GOD is ‘n enige HERE. In Engels Hear oh Israel the LORD our GOD is One LORD. Dan aan die einde, met Sy wederkoms lees ons in Sagaria 14:5+9 “Dan sal die HERE my God kom, al die heiliges met u. (9) En die HERE sal Koning wees oor die hele aarde; in die dag sal die HERE een wees, en sy Naam een.” Verder sê Jesus in Joh.17:3 “En dit is die ewige lewe, dat hulle U ken, Die einige waaragtige God, en Jesus Christus wat U gestuur het.” Om saam te vat Calvyn was indirek verantwoordelik vir die dood van digby ‘n honderd persone, kom ons laat hom oor aan God se oordeel.

    Andrew, hoe sou jy hierdie gedeelte in die Skrif verklaar:

    Maar Jesus het geantwoord en vir hom gesê: Laat dit nou toe, want só pas dit ons om alle geregtigheid te vervul. Daarna het hy Hom toegelaat. En nadat Jesus [DIE SEUN VAN GOD DIE VADER] gedoop was, het Hy dadelik uit die water opgeklim, en meteens gaan die hemele vir Hom oop, en Hy sien die Gees van God [DIE HEILIGE GEES] soos ‘n duif neerdaal en op Hom kom. En daar kom ‘n stem uit die hemele [GOD DIE VADER] wat sê: Dit is my geliefde Seun in wie Ek ‘n welbehae het. (Mat 3:15-17)

    Of was Jesus ‘n buikspreker om sy stem soos die van ‘n Vader uit die hemel te laat hoor terwyl Hy hier op aarde in die water gedoop is?

  3. Andrew on Baptism of Jesus.. says:

    [Edited: Commented moved from Calvinists Justify the Known Murderer, John Calvin.]
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    Dear Thomas, Of course it was the voice of the Amighty God, in a way proclaiming Himself as Father of His Son Jesus!
    The baptism of God’s Holy Spirit that came like a dove on Jesus was ordained by God in fulfilling ao.:Gal.2:9 , “For in Him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.”

    1Tim. 2:5, For there are one God, and one mediator between God and men, the MAN CHRIST JESUS. To mention but a few of the many applicable scriptures. I hope this answer your Question. Kind regards.

  4. [Edited: Commented moved from Calvinists Justify the Known Murderer, John Calvin.]
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    Hi Andrew,

    You said:

    Dear Thomas, Of course it was the voice of the Almighty God, in a way proclaiming Himself as Father of His Son Jesus!

    You are dodging my questions. You are not going to get away with it so easily. What do you mean by “the voice of the Almighty God, in a way proclaiming Himself as Father of His Son Jesus?” The Bible never says that Almighty God merely proclaims Himself in a way to be the Father of his Son, Jesus Christ. Are you saying that God is a single entity who manifests Himself randomly as Father, Son and Holy Ghost? That’s heresy. It sounds more like someone morphing himself into something else and back again to something original.

    God the Father is a Person separate from the Son and the Holy Ghost, just as the Son and the Holy Spirit are separate Persons from the Father and one another. And yet, they are ONE. In Genesis 1:26 we read: “And God said, Let US make man in OUR image, after our likeness: . . .” To whom do the “US” and “OUR” refer to – a single Person who randomly morphs Himself into a Father, then into a Son and then again into the “Holy Spirit and then back again into a Father?

    I notice that you’ve changed “is” into “are” in your quote from 1 Timothy 2:5. Was it on purpose? In any case, Paul does not say there is only one God in the sense of Him being a single entity who randomly manifests himself as Father, Son and Holy Ghost. He is simply saying that there is only one God and beside Him there is no other who is able to save lost sinners. In the very next verse he confirms that this One God is the only One who wants all people to be saved.

    What is the danger of anti-Trinitarianism. Look at John 17:3

    And this is eternal life, that they know you the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent.

    Notice carefully that your and mine and everyone elses eternal destiny is determined by our knowledge of how He reveals Himself to us in his Word. How does He reveal Himself? Notice the little word “and” in “this is eternal life, that they know you the only true God, AND Jesus Christ whom you have sent.” No one can claim to be saved when they say they know God as a single Person who manifests Himself randomly in three different offices – Father, Son and Holy Ghost. John clearly says we must believe in God the Father AND Jesus Christ in order to be saved – two distinct Persons and yet ONE God.

  5. Deborah (Discerning the World) says:

    [Edited: Commented moved from Calvinists Justify the Known Murderer, John Calvin.]
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    Andrew

    Indeed, listen to what Thomas is saying – this is the truth of the matter.

  6. Andrew on Jesus Baptism says:

    [Edited: Commented moved from Calvinists Justify the Known Murderer, John Calvin.]
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    Liewe Thomas, Dit lyk vir my of jy meer te sê het oor die drie woorde wat net terloops was. En nee, omdat my Engelse grammatika nie meer so goed is as voorheen nie, was dit slegs so ‘n fout.Waarom lewer jy nie liewers kommentaar op die skrifte wat ek genoem het nie.Op die opmerking (are/is) wat jy gemaak het sal ek jou vergewe. Antwoord my asb. een vraag:Die HERE GOD wat ek dien is GEES!
    Jy sê die Vader is die 1ste Persoon in die
    3 eenheid. Beskryf asb sy BEELD, hoe lyk God?

  7. Thomas Lessing says:

    [Edited: Commented moved from Calvinists Justify the Known Murderer, John Calvin.]
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    Andrew on Jesus Baptism wrote:

    Op die opmerking (are/is) wat jy gemaak het sal ek jou vergewe.

    Die rede waarom ek jou gevra het of jy doelbewus “are” pleks van “is” gebruik het, is omdat jou waarskynlike fout die essensie van die Drie-eenheid beskrywe – nl. drie persone (meervoud) in EEN.

    Andrew on Jesus Baptism wrote:

    Antwoord my asb. een vraag: Die HERE GOD wat ek dien is GEES! Jy sê die Vader is die 1ste Persoon in die 3 eenheid. Beskryf asb sy BEELD, hoe lyk God?

    Jy vra my om iets te doen wat niemand nog ooit kon doen nie, nl om God die Vader te beskrywe. Niemand het God die Vader nog ooit gesien nie. Nog net een mens het Hom van agter gesien en dit was Moses. Jy weet net so goed soos ek dat enigiemand wat God die Vader sou sien, onmiddellik dood neer sou val. Moses het nie dood neergeval nie omdat God hom in ‘n gekliefde rots gesit en sy hand oor hom geplaas het. Die gekliefde rots was ‘n toonbeeld van Jesus self wat aan die kruis vir ons geklief is. Dit beteken dat alleenlik diegene wat deur wedergeboorte in Jesus (die gekliefde Rots) geplaas is, God die Vader kan “sien” (kan ken). Ons sien sy werke, ons hoor sy woorde deur sy Seun, die Woord van God wat vlees geword het.

    Toe Filippus Jesus vra “Toon ons die Vader” en Jesus Hom geantwoord het “Ek is so lankal by julle, en het jy My nie geken nie, Filippus? Hy wat My gesien het, het die Vader gesien.” het Hy nie bedoel dat Hy die Vader self in liggaamlike gedaante was of ‘n manifestasie van die Vader was nie. Jesus kon so sê omdat Hy en die Vader een is (een in karakter en persoonlikheid), omdat die woorde wat HY tot hulle gespreek het, woorde van sy Vader was, en omdat die wonderwerke wat Hy gedoen het, werke was wat die Vader deur Hom gedoen het.

    God is nie een God wat Hom in drie Persone manifesteer nie. Hy is Een God in drie afsonderlike en onderskeibare Persone, nl. God die Vader, God die Seun en God die Heilige Gees. Dit is nie ‘n leerstelling wat Konstantyn opgetower het nie. Dis ‘n leerstelling wat in die Bybel voorkom.

  8. John Chingford says:

    [Edited: Commented moved from Calvinists Justify the Known Murderer, John Calvin.]
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    Hi Thomas,

    Thanks for all your contributions to this blog.

    I have a question to you.

    Your reply to Andrew said:

    “Are you saying that God is a single entity who manifests Himself randomly as Father, Son and Holy Ghost? That’s heresy. It sounds more like someone morphing himself into something else and back again to something original.”

    Isn’t that a bit harsh to call it heresy. The trinity/unity/oneness of God is a mystery that few (if any) have ever really understood. What Andrew said didn’t seem to be heresy. I think you may have misunderstood him. I will explain why.

    I know of many scriptures (I will list just a few) that say that Jesus is the Father in human form appearing as the Son. Let me ask you; who created the heavens and the Earth?

    Genesis 1 tells us it was God (Elohim, meaning the plurality of God’s being). Yet John 1 says that it was Jesus who created the Heavens and the Earth. “in HIM all things were made and nothing was made that was made except through HIM“.

    Then consider that Paul stated that in Jesus, the Godhead (includes the Father) dwelt in bodily form ” For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily”. Col 2:9

    ThenPaul is referring to Jesus when he said in Col 1:16-17 “For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: And he is before all things, and by him all things consist”

    Jesus (Himself) said to Philip “when you see me you see the Father”. Jesus said to the Jewish leaders “I and the Father are ONE”. Then John 14:10 “I am IN the Father and the Father is IN me”.

    How do you interpret these scriptures? There are many more similar to these!

    As I understand it, there ARE 3 manifestations (NOT morphs) of the ONE true God. These manifestations (persons) are indivisible and all part of the WHOLE make up of the ONE God.

  9. Rob Diamond says:

    [Edited: Commented moved from Calvinists Justify the Known Murderer, John Calvin.]
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    John,

    It sounds to me like you are promoting modalism.

  10. Robbie says:

    [Edited: Commented moved from Calvinists Justify the Known Murderer, John Calvin.]
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    WOW! this is interesting and Debs/guys, I think we have to start a new topic? :-)

    I was taught in the DRC that one day when we enter heaven, we shall see three different persons. Of course, coming from the DRC it raised me eyebrows.

    Ok, now I am at:
    one essence three persons… or one essence three manifestations?

    I also ask myself.. At the judgement seat – If the judge will be on the throne, where will my lawyer be?

    Don’t let me stop you guys… I am following!

  11. [Edited: Commented moved from Calvinists Justify the Known Murderer, John Calvin.]
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    Hi John,

    Thank you for your very interesting and honest comment.

    We learn from Scripture that God IS love (the very essence of love) (1 John 4:8; 1 John 4:16). To express love someone else apart from yourself must exist. Loving yourself is not really love, is it? That’s why God said: “It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him.” Here we have two persons and yet in marriage they become one flesh (Genesis 2:24; Matthew 19:6). The most profound expression of love is when two distinct and separate persons are united in a bond of love as one. Do I understand it? No! Can I explain it? No! Then why should I believe it? Well, because Gods says so and He cannot lie (Numbers 23:19).

    Let’s assume that, as you say, there are 3 manifestations of the ONE true God. In what way, would you say, do these 3 manifestations express their love for one another? The only way to express love for one another then, would be when the ONE true God manifests all three – God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit – at the same time. But that seems to be out of the question because love for a manifestation is not true love, or is it? Let’s assume your wife (I don’t know whether you are married) is able to manifest herself in some other way than what she usually appears to you (let’s for argument’s sake say, as Mary instead of Jane). Now be honest, would you be able to love her manifestation in the form of Jane? I really don’t think so. You can only love the real McCoy, the person called Mary.

    The point I’m trying to make is that the notion of God being ONE God who manifests Himself randomly in three ways, is an outright denial that GOD IS LOVE (the essence of love). God can only be the essence of love when He has someone else (another Person), distinct from Himself to love, and yet who are ONE. Think of it in this way: If God is not the essence of love (in the sense of Him being One God but three separate Persons who love one another as Persons and not merely as manifestations) then He could never have said: “For God so loved the world . . . .” Do you now see that it jeopardizes the entire doctrine of salvation? Is that not heresy?

  12. [Edited: Commented moved from Calvinists Justify the Known Murderer, John Calvin.]
    —————-

    John Chingford wrote:

    I know of many scriptures (I will list just a few) that say that Jesus is the Father in human form appearing as the Son. Let me ask you; who created the heavens and the Earth?

    According to Genesis 1 God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit (three distinct Persons in ONE) were all involved in the creation of the cosmos. The cosmos was created BY (through) Him but both the Father and the Holy Spirit were involved. The word for “by” is “en” which means to be instrumental in the doing of something. It does not mean that He alone created the cosmos.

  13. Deborah (Discerning the World) says:

    [Edited: Commented moved from Calvinists Justify the Known Murderer, John Calvin.]
    —————-

    Robbie

    Nope the DRC was correct, its 3 different persons, but they are all ONE. They were all there at the beginning of creation. God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit. God the Father is a person in Spirit form, Jesus is a person and the Holy Spirit is a person, but together they are all ONE GOD.

    They are not manifestations or essences of eachother, this is totally and utterly incorrect.

    I will open a new topic for this :)

  14. Deborah (Discerning the World) says:

    [Edited: Commented moved from Calvinists Justify the Known Murderer, John Calvin.]
    —————-

    Rob

    You are right, this is indeed Modalism they are speaking about and it is heresy, but it is unfortunately a COMMON error among many Christians who just don’t understand or who have never taken the time to understand the Godhead. And they should understand it, because it’s important, because if you continue and accept this teaching it will lead you into all sorts of trouble down the line.

  15. John Chingford says:

    [Edited: Commented moved from Calvinists Justify the Known Murderer, John Calvin.]
    —————-

    Hi Thomas

    Thanks for your answers. However, you have not addressed everything I wrote.

    Question 1:
    How do you interpret Col 1:16-17 “For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: ALL THINGS were created by HIM, and for HIM: And he is before all things, and by HIM ALL THINGS consist” (Bold and uppercase added by me so that you can see what I am trying to highlight).

    I am not trying to promote anything – just simply quoting scripture which implies that Jesus was the human manifestation of the Trinity whilst He walked the Earth. I have never even heard of modism before. I am simply studying the scriptures and seeking understanding – especially it is relevant when witnessing to Muslims and Jews.

    Here is another question:

    Question 2:
    Are there any scripture verses which ACTUALLY use the word “persons” when it is referring to the trinity? Is that word used in scripture or is it just a word that someone in church history came up with, that we have simply accepted without questioning it? If it is not in scripture (I cannot recall ever seeing it) then why are we using it as if fact? By calling God 3 persons it does tend to indicate 3 God’s no matter how you try to explain it. However, if God is ONE God made up of 3 manifestations (much like we are made up of body, soul and spirit) then it would make more sense.

    Please be careful in using the word heresy. As I understand it heresy means you are teaching another way to heaven other than through Jesus by faith through grace alone. It is NOT a requisite to understand the Trinity 100% to get to heaven otherwise NONE of us would get there. To teach that you DO need it as a requisite WOULD BE heresy.

  16. Andrew on baptim says:

    [Edited: Commented moved from Calvinists Justify the Known Murderer, John Calvin.]
    —————-

    Liewe Thomas, die wyse wat julle die drie-eenheid vertolk en ook doop volgens Mat. 28:19 is AANVAARBAAR vir die Roomse Kerk met Haar reputasie.
    Ek is dankbaar dat die eenheid van die Godheid en ook die doop deur onderdompeling, in die Naam van Jesus Christus, soos deur Paulus, Petrus en al die ander apostels beoefen
    deur DIE ROOMSE KATOLIEKE VERWERP WORD

  17. [Edited: Commented moved from Calvinists Justify the Known Murderer, John Calvin.]–
    ————–

    John Chingford wrote:

    Please be careful in using the word heresy. As I understand it heresy means you are teaching another way to heaven other than through Jesus by faith through grace alone. It is NOT a requisite to understand the Trinity 100% to get to heaven otherwise NONE of us would get there. To teach that you DO need it as a requisite WOULD BE heresy.

    I so desperately tried to convince you that God could not have revealed Himself as the essence of love if their had only been three manifestations of the ONE true God instead of three separate and distinct Persons in the Godhead. Surely, manifestations of the same ONE Person cannot show forth love. How would you suggest should three manifestations of the same Person love one another. It’s impossible. I seemed to have failed to convince you. So, let’s try something else. I have already used the same argument in Afrikaans with Andrew but he too rejects it.

    In John 17:3 Jesus says: “And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, AND Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.” Was it merely a manifestation of Jesus Christ as the Father who sent Jesus Christ to earth or was it a distinctly separate Person, Called God the Father, who sent His Son to earth? Surely the word “and” in “And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, . . .” proves that there are at least two distinct Persons involved in the salvation of mankind,i.e. God the Father and Jesus Christ whom He sent.

    Let’s interpret the verse in the way you believe. “And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true manifestation of God, AND Jesus Christ, a manifestation of the Father who sent a manifestation of Himself, Jesus Christ.” If Jesus spoke the truth when He said “And this is eternal life, that they might know thee (a distinct and separate Person called God the Father) the only true God, AND Jesus Christ (a distinct and separate Person who is His Son), who thou hast sent” then we have a big problem when people believe otherwise. This is indeed teaching another way to heaven because it is not the Jesus of the Bible but another Jesus who manifests Himself in three different Persons who are not distinct and separate Persons but merely three manifestations. NO one can understand the Trinity 100% but we must at least know how God reveals Himself to us and what one must believe in order to be saved, and John 17:3 tells us what to believe.

  18. Sharon says:

    1John 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.
    1John 5:8 And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.

    The Word doesn’t get plainer than that. God is triune and He created us to be triune as in Body, Soul and Spirit. Those three make up…ME

    I am trying to remember the exact term and if it comes to me I’ll post it.

    Only one part of the Trinity can be here on Earth at a time. Jesus said, in John16:7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send Him unto you. That verse seems to validate my point.

    Any way…Great Topic!

  19. Sharon says:

    To the “Deb-ster” may I ask why there are some things posted here that are either Dutch or German? Just wondering.

  20. Deborah (Discerning the World) says:

    Hey Sharon

    Ahhh because many people speak Afrikaans (Dutch) in South Africa so some articles are written in Afrikaans, but we are getting them translated into English :) So hang ten!

  21. What do Modalists do with the following verses?

    So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God. (Mark 16:19)

    Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear. (Acts 2:33)

    But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God, Acts 7:55)

    Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us. Romans 8:34)

    If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God. (Colossians 3:1)

    But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God; (Hebrews 10:12)

    Who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God; angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him. (1 Peter 3:22)

    Jesus cannot possibly sit at his own right hand.

  22. John Chingford says:

    Hi Thomas

    You still have not answered my 2 specific questions. You are simply avoiding the questions. Why so evasive?

    Why are you not answering my specific questions? Your argument about the “3 persons” is that the Godhead needs 3 in order to express love. Where does it say that in the Bible? Of course God IS love but His whole nature of love cannot be divided. He is love which means everything He is, is love ie Father, Son and Holy Spirit are full of the ONE undivided love. Sorry, I do not get your argument.

    Please do not assume I believe in modalism. I do not! All I am doing is asking how you understand the scripture verses I quoted. I am happy to learn and be persuaded but need to be persuaded by scripture NOT by human intellectual argument.

    Firstly, I AM NOT saying that God splits Himself up into different manifestations. Maybe the word manifestation is not the best word to use. I used it for want of a better word. The word “manifestation” is a biblical word, however, NOWHERE will you find the Bible calling the trinity “3 PERSONS”. This is why I refuse to use that word when describing God.

    When you see the Father you see the Son and the Holy Spirit. As Jesus said, when you see the Son you see the Father (and the Holy Spirit). The way you described God it DOES sound like you believe in 3 completely separate entities ie 3 Gods. You then suggest that I am not saved because I believe in the wrong Jesus.

    I searched on that word modalism. This is what Theopedia says “Modalism thus denies the basic distinctiveness and coexistence of the three persons of the Trinity” Modalism was condemned by Tertullian (c. 213, it was condemned as heresy by Dionysius, bishop of Rome (c. 262)”

    Well….. Firstly, I do not deny the distinctiveness and coexistence of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. However, I question the use of the word “persons” because it is NOT in the Bible.

    Next, look at the two who did the condemning. One was one of the church fathers around the time when gnosticism had infiltrated the church. Then we have the Bishop of Rome saying it was heresy. Are we to trust the authority of the church of Rome over whether it is heresy or not? I think not!

    You suggest that we need more than just believing in Jesus as the Son of God who takes our sins away washed in His blood and that salvation is by grace through faith alone. You are adding intellectual understanding on the Trinity as a requisite to salvation. Sorry, but I do not see that requisite mentioned in the Bible.

    You quote from John 17:3 to persuade me, which says “And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent”

    saying that that proves that you need to believe the right things about God and Jesus before we can be saved. Actually, that verse is not talking about how to be saved but on the benefits after being saved i.e an eternal relationship with God through Jesus. We can ONLY know God after our sins have been forgiven by grace through faith by receiving Jesus.

    Please Thomas, please answer my specific questions without skating round the question. I am very keen to understand how we apply the verses I quoted to the 3 separate persons scenario:

    ie, Col 2:9, Col 1:16-17, John 14:10 and John 1:1-3

    How do we explain to Muslims and Jews the Trinity in a way that persuades them that we DO NOT believe in 3 Gods? With Jews it is easier because we can show the Trinity in the OT, but how do we convince muslims who reject Christ as being God because they believe there cannot be more than one God?

  23. Hi John,

    Haven’t you read Deborah’s article? It explains it all.

    John bare witness of him, and cried, saying, This was he of whom I spake, He that cometh after me is preferred before me: for he was before me. And of his fulness have all we received, and grace for grace. (Joh 1:15-16).

    The word “plērōma” (fullness) used above is the very same word used in Colossians 2:9. The early gnostics did not believe that Jesus was fully God and fully man. As you may know they argued that he was an angel whose body was only “apparent.” John simply says that Jesus is God equal to God the Father and God the Holy Spirit. He has the very same attributes as his Father and the Holy Spirit so that when the disciples looked at Him they could actually see both the Father and the Holy Spirit. There is nothing in and of the Father and the Holy Spirit that is not in and of Jesus Christ. They are all God (three separate Persons). “Let us (plural) make man in our (plural) image (singular), after our likeness (singular).” – three distinct, co-equal and separate Persons who all have the exact same image (attributes). If “us” and “our” do not refer to separate Persons, then we’d better go back to school to learn how to understand and interpret the English language. It does not use the word “persons” but surely it implies it, don’t you think? It does not mean that Jesus Christ was merely a mode, representation, or manifestation of God the Father and God the Holy Spirit.

    You may not have accepted or understood my example of love but surely you must know that only when there are at least two separate and distinct persons around can there be love. Manifestations or modes of a single person cannot express true love. Must it say so in so many words in the Bible before you can understand it? God does not want us to take everything at face value; He also wants you to think logically.

    Colossians 1:16-17. Please note the word “by” (en) which explains everything. It means to be the “instrumental cause” in creation. Hebrews 1:1-2 will help us to understand it more fully.

    God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds; Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high; (Heb 1:1-3).

    It simply means that God the Father is the ultimate Source (efficient Cause) and Jesus Christ, the Son, is the mediating Cause of the cosmos.

    John 1:1-3: Here again is the word “by” (en) which I explained in the above paragraph. By the way, this passage proves beyond any doubt that two Persons were involved in the creation of the cosmos. The Word is Jesus Christ who was with God the Father from the beginning. “In the beginning was the Word (Jesus Christ), and the Word (Jesus Christ) was with God (God the Father), and the Word was [also] God (Jesus Christ).

    I have seen and heard many testimonies of Muslims who’d been saved by the grace of God and nearly all of them tell the same story. The one thing, they say, that drew them to Christ was the love they saw between Christian brethren and Christian husbands and their wives (between persons and NOT between modes or manifestations of single entities). Islam, they admit, is a religion of hatred. So maybe you should explain to them what I tried to explain to you about the necessity to have at least two distinct and separate persons for love to exist.

    You said:

    You quote from John 17:3 to persuade me, which says “And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent”

    saying that that proves that you need to believe the right things about God and Jesus before we can be saved. Actually, that verse is not talking about how to be saved but on the benefits after being saved i.e an eternal relationship with God through Jesus. We can ONLY know God after our sins have been forgiven by grace through faith by receiving Jesus.

    Many people claim to be saved and still do not know God as He has revealed Himself in Scripture – a Triune God comprising three distinct, separate and co-equal Persons called God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit. Jesus said that it is the Truth that sets sinners free. Whoever rejects the Truth concerning the Triune God’s revelation of Himself (Father, Son and Holy Spirit) cannot claim to be saved. They do not believe in the God of the Bible but another God who transforms himself into a father, then into a son and then into a holy spirit.

    But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ. For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him. (2 Corinthians 11:3-4)

  24. John Chingford says:

    Wait a minute.

    I have NEVER stated that God transforms Himself into a father, then into a Son then into the Holy Spirit. That is not possible. I stated that God DOES NOT split Himself up. He has always been, IS and always will be Father, Son and Holy Spirit. It is IMPOSSIBLE for Him to be anything other than all 3 ALL the time. When you see the Father, you also see the Son and the Holy Spirit. When you see the Son, you also see the Father and the Holy Spirit, When You see the Holy Spirit He always reveals the Father and the Son.

    You are using human reasoning when you say that “us”, “we” etc means that God is 3 “PERSONS”. You are using human (English) language to explain that God therefore must be made up of persons. If you are talking about human beings then I would agree, but we are talking about the unfathomable, Living, eternal, almighty God which human words are so limited in describing. You cannot liken God to a human being by calling Him “persons”. The word person is linked to a name we call human beings – NOT God!

    By the way, I have learnt quite a bit of hebrew and do understand the plurality of God in the book of Genesis. However, we also are a plurality of body, soul and spirit. Sometimes we also correctly sometimes say “let us” when talking about ourself to someone else. David (the psalmist) often tried to encourage his soul to praise God “all that is within me”. It does not necessarily mean that there were 3 persons present (could be but not definitely meant in the text). When we talk to our soul to bless the Lord are we 3 persons or one person?

    As I say, you are using your own intellectual reasoning and NOT the Word of God to describe God.

    Let us clarify:

    1. Do I believe that Jesus is the Son of God, God incarnate? YES!!! (because He said so, although I am limited in understanding fully what that actually means)
    2. Do I believe that Jesus came from God? YES!!!
    3. Do I believe that He is an undivided, co equal, co eternal part of the Godhead? YES!!!
    4. Do I believe that He paid the price for my sins? YES!!!
    5. Do I believe that Jesus is the only way to the Father? YES!!!
    6. Do I believe that salvation can be found in no other name than in Jesus? YES!!!
    7. Do I believe in the Trinity (Father, Son and Holy Spirit)? YES!!! (although I do not fully understand it in the light of the verses I quoted)
    8. Do I believe these things with all my heart and mind? YES!!!
    9. Do I believe that my sins (sinful nature) had separated me from God? YES!!!
    10. Did I accept that I needed salvation and receive Jesus as my Saviour? YES!!!
    11. Was I transformed into a child of God eternally secure in my salvation? YES!!!

    Jesus said “suffer the little children to come unto me, for such belongs the kingdom of God”. How on Earth do you expect children to understand the Godhead? All that is required is simple childlike faith in what Jesus said!!!

    According to the Bible, I AM saved. NOWHERE does the Bible teach that you need to be fully correct in your understanding of the Godhead to be saved. If you are teaching that, then you are ADDING to the Word of God and likely to bring multitudes of believers into the false notion that they might not be saved. In a sense you are turning God’s grace into a “works” mentality, ie we have to understand in our own intellectual abilities by our own efforts rather than believing in the simple gospel.

    You also quoted from John 1:1-3 by ADDING the word “also”. That is exactly what the JW’s do in their false New World translation. It DOES not say that the Word was ALSO God. It says that the Word WAS GOD.

    Three but ONE. “The Word was with God (could possibly mean ‘in God’?) and the Word WAS GOD”. Jesus said that He was in the Father and the Father was in Him. So “with” or “in” is possibly the same thing. I am not stating it as fact because I do not know but surely it IS a possibility, in the light of many other Bible passages.

  25. Hi John,

    You said:

    I have NEVER stated that God transforms Himself into a father, then into a Son then into the Holy Spirit. That is not possible. I stated that God DOES NOT split Himself up. He has always been, IS and always will be Father, Son and Holy Spirit. It is IMPOSSIBLE for Him to be anything other than all 3 ALL the time

    Where was the Father when Jesus was in the flesh on earth?

    Of course a child cannot understand fully the Trinity (and neither do we as adults). Nevertheless, we can know and understand Him (the Trinity) in the light of the revelation He has given of Himself in his Word. John 1:1 clearly says that the WORD (Jesus Christ) was WITH God. Does that mean He was with Himself? I included the word “also” to show that the WORD (Jesus Christ) – who was WITH the Father since time immemorial, was ALWAYS with the Father which, if you look at it logically – MUST therefore ALSO be God, co-equal with His Father. If the WORD is eternal and has ALWAYS been WITH God, then He must be God Himself. You even admitted yourself that Jesus Christ is God, co-equal to his Father. You cannot be equal to someone while you are that person himself. One can only be equal to someone else as a distinct and separate personage.

    You said:

    I stated that God DOES NOT split Himself up. He has always been, IS and always will be Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

    If Jesus has always been Father, Son and Holy Spirit without being a distinct and separate Person, why did He say the following:

    And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come. (Matthew 12:32)

    It doesn’t make sense to say:

    And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man (who IS and always will be the Holy Spirit), it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost (who IS and has always been the Son), it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come. (Matthew 12:32)

    I never said or even suggested that you are not saved. I said that anyone who does not believe as the Scriptures have said are in danger of following another Jesus.

    First you accuse me of using human reasoning and then you use a human (spirit, soul and body) to describe your view of God the Trinity. That’s not kosher.

  26. Paul (Continue in his Word) says:

    I find this conversation very interesting.
    I believe this issue about the identity of God trumps everything. It defines the fundamental premise of the Christian faith.
    Thomas is right in saying that Eternal Life (salvation) is KNOWING the Only True God, and the Man Jesus Christ whom HE has sent (John 17:3).
    We have to be clear about the exact identity of the great God and Savior Jesus Christ (Titus 2:13) we believe in:
    -Is He the incarnation of the Only One and tru God, without distinction of persons? (Oneness)
    -Is He the incarnation of the Second Person of the Trinity of Three Persons in One God? (Trinitarianism)

    I argue that these are two diametrically opposed faiths if I may put it that way. It cannot be one and the other. So we must choose.

    Now, what do Oneness believers really believe?
    I found this definition on the web:

    THE DEFINITION OF ONENESS

    ——————————————————————————–

    (Excerpt by permission from author from the book, Oneness and Trinity A.D. 100-300, by David K. Bernard, Word Aflame Press [ISBN- 0-932581-81-1], 1991).

    ——————————————————————————–

    “The doctrine of Oneness can be stated in two affirmations:

    God is absolutely one with no distinction of persons (Deut. 6:4; Gal. 3:20).

    Jesus Christ is all the fullness of the Godhead incarnate (John 20:28; Colossians 2:9).

    “All the names and titles of the Deity, such as God, Jehovah, Lord, Father, Word, and Holy Spirit, refer to one and the same being. These various names and titles simply denote manifestations, roles, relationships to humanity, modes of activity, or aspects of God’s self-revelation.

    “All these designations of the Deity apply to Jesus, and all aspects of the divine personality are manifested in Him. Jesus is God, or Jehovah, incarnate (Isa. 9:6; 40:9: John 8:58; 20:28; II Cor. 5:19; Col. 2:9; I Timothy 3:16; Titus 2:13).

    “Jesus is the Father incarnate (Isaiah 9:6; 63:16; John 10:30; 14:9-11; Rev. 21:6-7). The Holy Spirit is the Spirit that was incarnated in Jesus and is Jesus in Spirit form (John 14:16-18; Romans 8:9-11; Philippians 1:19; Col. 1:27).

    “The Oneness doctrine recognizes that the Bible reveals God as the Father, in the Son, and as the Holy Spirit. The One God is the Father of all creation, Father of the only begotten Son, and Father of born- again believers. (See Deut. 32:6; Malachi 2:10; Galatians 4:6; Hebrews 1:5; 12:9).

    “The title of Son refers to God’s incarnation. The man Christ was literally conceived by the Spirit of God and was therefore the Son of God (Matthew 1:18-20; Luke 1:35). The title of Son sometimes focuses solely on the humanity of Christ, as in ‘the death of His Son’ (Romans 5:10). Sometimes it encompasses both His deity and humanity, as in ‘Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven’ (Matthew 26:64). It is never used apart from God’s incarnation, however; it never refers to deity alone.

    “The terms ‘God the Son’ and ‘eternal Son’ are nonbiblical; the Bible instead speaks of the ‘Son of God’ and the ‘only begotten Son’. The Son is not eternally begotten by some incomprehensible, ongoing process; rather, the Son was begotten by the miraculous work of the Holy Spirit in the womb of Mary. The Son had a beginning, namely, at the incarnation (Luke 1:35; Galatians 4:4; Hebrews 1:5-6).

    “There is a real distinction between God and Son – not a distinction of two divine persons, but a distinction between the eternal Spirit of God and the authentic human being in whom God was fully incarnate. While Jesus was both God and man at the same time, sometimes He spoke or acted from the human viewpoint and sometimes from the divine viewpoint. As Father, He sometimes spoke from His divine self-awareness; as Son, he sometimes spoke from His human self-awareness. As a man, He prayed to, related to, and submitted to God as all humans should do. At the same time, God dwelt in and revealed Himself in that man with His undiminished character, nature, power and authority.

    “In John 1, the Word is God’s self-revelation, self-expression, or self-disclosure. Before the Incarnation, the Word was the thought, plan, reason, or mind of God. In the beginning, the Word was with God, not as a distinct Person but as God Himself — pertaining to God as much as a man and his word. ‘The Word was God Himself’ (John 1:1, Amplified Bible). In the fullness of time God put flesh on the Word; He revealed Himself in flesh. In the person of Jesus Christ, ‘the Word was made flesh’ (John 1:14). ‘God was manifest in the flesh’ (I Timothy 3:16). The eternal Word was revealed in the begotten Son.

    “The title of Holy Spirit refers to God in spiritual essence and activity. It describes the fundamental character of God’s nature, for holiness forms the basis of His moral attributes while spirituality forms the basis of His nonmoral attributes. The Title is particularly used of works that God can do because He is a Spirit, such as anointing, regenerating, indwelling, and sanctifying humanity. (See Genesis 1:1-2; Acts 1:5-8).

    “The three roles of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are necessary to God’s plan of redemption for fallen humanity. In order to save us, God provided a sinless Man who could die in our place – the Son. In begetting the Son and in relating to humanity, God is the Father. And in working in our lives to empower and transform us, God is the Holy Spirit.

    “In sum, the titles of Father, Son and Holy Spirit describe God’s multiple roles and works, but they do not reflect an essential threeness in God’s nature. FATHER refers to God in family relationship to humanity; SON refers to God in flesh; and SPIRIT refers to God in activity. For example, one man can have three significant relationships or functions -such as administrator, teacher, and counsellor – and yet be one person in every sense. God is not defined by or limited to an essential threeness.

    “A corollary of the Oneness doctrine is that the name of Jesus, which means Jehovah-Saviour, is the supreme name by which God has revealed Himself to humanity and the redemptive name in the New Testament. (See Matthew 1:21; Luke 24:47; Acts 4:12; 10:43; Philippians 2:9-11; Colossians 3:17.) Consequently, the apostles always baptized by invoking the name of Jesus, and the church should do the same today. (See Acts 2:38; 8:16; 10:48; 19:3-5; 22:16; Romans 6:3-4; I Corinthians 1:13; 6:11). Since Jesus is all the fullness of God incarnate, the name (singular) of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit as described by Matthew 28:19 is Jesus. (See Matthew 1:21; Luke 24:47; John 5:43; 14:26).’


    Source: http://mikeblume.com/onedef.htm

  27. Deborah (Discerning the World) says:

    John said

    >> When you see the Father, you also see the Son and the Holy Spirit. When you see the Son, you also see the Father and the Holy Spirit, When You see the Holy Spirit He always reveals the Father and the Son.

    Oh boy

    Did you read my article John? According to you they are schizophrenic. 3 personalities in One.

    >> According to the Bible, I AM saved.

    No one is saying you are not saved, we are saying you believe in an heretical doctrine that needs to be remedied. Change your way of thinking (now that you have been told the truth of the matter) otherwise Satan is going to jump in boots and all and corrupt your mind further on other issues.

    >> NOWHERE does the Bible teach that you need to be fully correct in your understanding of the Godhead to be saved.

    REALLY John? Coming from you Mr Watchman I am shocked. You of all people should know that you need to be accurate and follow the gospel accurately! Yes we make mistakes BUT WHEN WE ARE INFORMED OF OUR MISTAKES – WE RECTIFY THEM – we repent of our mistakes, change our ways.

    Can I inform you of a BIG mistake I made? The image to this article is now gone because the Holy Spirit chastised me big time for a whole day (and I was not online to remove it, I was away) I didn’t think to ask Ton to take it off. The message from the Holy Spirit to me, Thou shalt not make any images of God. What did I do? I tried to make an image explaining away the trinity! But the Holy Spirit told me that it looked like a triangle and I must removed it immediately. So when I got back online I removed it and asked Jesus for forgiveness for being soooo stupid.

    We all do and believe in wrong things John, the good part is we can FIX the problem by changing our ways and asking Jesus for forgiveness. And HE forgives us immediately, however I still feel like a complete moron for making the image. What was I thinking? Clearly not at all.

    >> Jesus said “suffer the little children to come unto me, for such belongs the kingdom of God”. How on Earth do you expect children to understand the Godhead? All that is required is simple childlike faith in what Jesus said!!!

    You are not a child anymore, you are an adult and you have been informed of the truth.

  28. John Chingford says:

    Hi Debs

    I cannot build up my own personal belief just from human intellectual argument and am not 100% decided either way. Nothing I have said is from my own point of view or an interpretation. All I am doing is quoting what the Bible says. Please read again what I quoted from John 14:9-11:

    “he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Show us the Father? Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, HE DOETH the works. Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me:”

    Then John 14:20 “At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you”

    John 4:23-24 says “the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth; for the Father is seeking such to worship Him. God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth.”

    God, the father is omni-present (everywhere), isn’t He. Wherever you go, God is THERE.

    Acts 17:28 says: “For in him we live, and move, and have our being”. So of course Jesus was in the Father. The Trinity cannot be separated because in unison they fill the whole universe with their presence.

    As we are both blog writers, you can probably appreciate that we have learnt how to properly investigate the truth rather than just accept the status quo.

    Since having a blog I have been forced to question many “accepted” doctrines because I have discovered they are contrary to the Word of God and most originate from Babylon (subsequently Rome).

    Did you know that the doctrine of the trinity (3 persons) came from Rome? Specifically it came out of Babylon with their triune (triad) of 3 gods – Osiris, Isis and Horus. As we know, the Catholic church has consistently been reintroducing Babylonic religion into their religion by “christianising” it. The doctrine of the trinity is another one they “christianised”. If this doctrine originates with them then I HAVE to question it. To my ears, calling the Trinity 3 persons sounds like they “christianised” their 3 gods worship. Whatever way you look at it, calling God 3 persons sounds like 3 gods.

    If the Father is omni-present, it means that wherever Jesus was, He was in the Father, when He ascended He went to the Father, when His body died on the cross The Son left the body on the cross “into your hands I commit my Spirit”.

    If it is possible for the Godhead to be separated, then they can no longer be ONE but two. Example, what happened on the cross? Was the Son of God temporarily cut off from His Father? How can that be? What about the 3 days and 3 nights? Was the Son dead? Where was He? The fact is that the Son can NEVER die (the body died) otherwise He would cease to be the ETERNAL Son of God. Even though He cried out “why hast thou forsaken me” He was not entirely separated. It was simply the body suffering the immense torture of paying for our sins.

    Whether you believe in 3 persons of the Trinity or a triune unity, whatever way you look at it there are problems when trying to explain what happened to the Godhead on the cross and in the tomb. I am still trying to get my head round it all. Maybe there is something in the middle of the 2 views added together that is the actual truth.

    Anyone with a humble/honest attitude should in humility accept that we will not ever understand fully the Godhead this side of Heaven “Now I know in part, but then I shall know just as I also am known” 1 Cor 13:12

  29. Deborah (Discerning the World) says:

    John

    Clearly you have not even bothered to read my article! Oh well, believe what you want.

    >> Did you know that the doctrine of the trinity (3 persons) came from Rome? Specifically it came out of Babylon with their triune (triad) of 3 gods – Osiris, Isis and Horus. As we know, the Catholic church has consistently been reintroducing Babylonic religion into their religion by “christianising” it. The doctrine of the trinity is another one they “christianised”.

    Don’t be ridiculous, in fact your belief mimics the Babylonian belief of 3 gods all morphing out of eachother, and another thing is this – the RCC does not believe in subordination in the Godhead and neither do you – how can you if they are all merged together. If you READ THE ARTICLE you would have seen this.

    >> Anyone with a humble/honest attitude should in humility accept that we will not ever understand fully the Godhead this side of Heaven “Now I know in part, but then I shall know just as I also am known” 1 Cor 13:12

    No John, I do not accept false teaching. You are showing yourself to be someone other than who you claim to be – a watchman? Watchman of what, false teaching? If you can throw that verse around then so can everyone else when it comes to not understanding scripture!

    Read the article otherwise I ask you to please not comment again on this matter. This is a very serious matter and I am sorry John, but a million GENUINE Christians will agree with me on this. Figure it out please – WITH THE HOLY SPIRIT (who is not Jesus Christ) but a separate person all together.

    :)

  30. John Chingford says:

    [delete]

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