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Rob Bell, Shane Hipps, Peter Rollins teaching Arts and Crafts?

Rob Bell, Shane Hipps, Peter Rollins teaching Arts and Crafts?

rob bellShane HippsPeter RollinsZondervan Poets, Prophets and Preachers conference

Rob Bell, Shane Hipps, Peter Rollins teaching Arts and Crafts?  No, Never, Cant be!

Agenda of Poets, Prophets and Preachers conference:    Rob Bell   [Emphasis added below]

Sunday July 5

Rob Bell – The Original Guerilla Theatre:    throwing ourselves into this ancient, sacred art form with the absurd, naive, antiquated belief that the world needs inspiring, provocative, comforting, dangerous, healing, great sermons now more than ever

[DTW note:  What Rob Bell REALLY means here.   Ancient, sacred art = paganism, occult.  By art they actually mean the craft or ‘art of the craft’.  In short it means this:  The experience and feeling you can attain by following ancient sacred knowledge by practicing certain disciplines.

Monday July 6

Rob Bell – The Story We’re Telling:    sin, salvation, business, art, justice and the importance of beginning in the beginning

[DTW note:  they are saying that you have got to go back to the beginning, go back to where ancient knowledge originated from, where sacred arts originated from in order to move forward. How far do we have to go back? To the very beginning, of course. We, each individual person, needs to eat from the tree of life in order to gain knowledge.

Genesis 3:4-5   4 The serpent said to the woman, “You surely will not die!   5 “For God knows that in the day you eat from it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.”]

Peter Rollins – Returning to the New – An Introduction to Transformance Art:   what do flash mobs, performance artists, and pirates have to do with Christianity? exploring how the church can act as an aroma of the coming kingdom ….

[DTW note:  The Aroma, Peter is talking about is the fragrance of the coming Christ (kingdom).  What he said is purely Buddhism/Eastern religious terminology for this would be the Fragrance of the Lotus (third eye/6th charka).  Lastly flash mobs, performance artists and pirates have absolutely nothing to do with Christianity. You however Peter Rollins, are more than welcome to act like a clown in your emergent circus.]

Shane Hipps – How Technology Shapes the Sermon:   the art of preaching evolves with every new technological innovation in a culture. do you know what is being done and undone by our technologies? 

[DTW note:  Shane believes that the message of Christianity has been evolving over time.  To the point it has now changed and no longer applies to Christians lives.]

Rob Bell – The Fig Tree and the Failure of Language:   moment, movement, mystery, and the science of homiletical architecture (alternate title: why some sermons work and others don’t)

[DTW note:  As per Rob, preaching will only work in this New Age of ours, if you turn the stories of the Bible into mystery, imagination,  magic, etc]

Tuesday July 7

Rob Bell – Fumbling Around with Your Radar:   tools, questions, approaches, and everyday 5 minute disciplines that have helped me understand where sermons come from

[DTW note:  The disciplines Rob is speaking about are things like:  meditation, contemplative prayer, centering, silence, circles, mantras, posture, yoga, etc, etc, etc]

Peter Rollins – For Those With Ears to Hear:  Parables and the Lost Art of Provocation:   an exploration of that theological dis-course that holds the power to send us hurtling off course and onto a new one  

[DTW note:  Peter’s attempt at a play on words here, what he means is that:  theological reasoning (questioning what the Bible has to say) holds the power to put us onto a NEW path]

Shane Hipps – You Are the Medium:   an exploration of the human being as God’s ultimate medium for his message. if the medium is the message, and you as a person are the medium, then what does that say about the message? 

[DTW note:  Shane is saying that we don’t need the Bible anymore, because we as humans hold the message of God within us.  Human beings are now the vessels, that carry the message.  Just something interesting to note:  A Medium (Channeller) in Spirit ism is also someone who has ‘something or someone’ speaking through them.]

Rob Bell – The One Thing I’ve Never Heard Someone Talk About That Has Changed Everything for Me

[DTW note:  Rob, would you like to talk about it?  Just get it off your chest, don’t write in circles anymore, just come clean, say what you mean!]

———-

Things said at PPP on Monday, taken from here:  Nuvuslumen.com

How image culture is shaping Christianity….In the image age we move from churches that look like traditional pew based…to more experiential, relational, and communal candle-circle situations.

[DTW note:  PPP is saying that the the Word of God has become an image, picture or imagination instead.  Because it’s no longer the truth anymore, and the truth is now inside each human being.  When you experience it, this new truth that is, through the human senses/faculties (hearing, sight, smell, touch, taste) you will feel the difference.  You will be able to relate what you have been taught and heard to what you can feel. 

It’s like experiencing a labyrinth, you will go around in circles; where the end is the beginning and the beginning is the end.  This makes you feel a bit bewildered and makes you think, ‘hang on, what’s going on here?’  So you go back, you retrace your steps and you find yourself at the same place you started at.  They told you this is would happen when you walk a labyrinth, but you needed to experience it for yourself to understand thereby acquiring ancient knowledge.

“Image based culture is to thank for Jesus becoming primary again…this is what is happening. We become what we behold.”

[DTW note:   The Word of God which is Jesus Christ and Jesus Christ which is the Word of God,  has now been shoved to the back and replaced with “Jesus the Image” or “Jesus of your imagination” as far as all those at PPP are concerned.  The Image Jesus has now become the primary focus. Because each person has the truth inside them, they become what they imagine, they can become like like Christ – a god.]

“…Our thinking patterns actually mirror the things we use to think with…”

[DTW:  PPP means this; once we have moved into the ‘new,’ our thinking actually goes back to the ‘old’, the way we used to think – like pagans where we worshipped creation and ourselves as part of creation]

“…Christianity is fundamentally a Communication Event. A God revealing God’s Self to the world. He used a variety of mediums to communicate that event: fire, scrolls, people, Jesus…

[DTW note:  NO!  God only used ONE way:  The Word of God.  The Word of God is Jesus Christ.  Jesus Christ is the Word of God.  The Words that God spoke in the Old Testament was Jesus Christ.  The Words that were spoken in the New Testament was Jesus Christ.  The Word that was written into the book called the bible after Jesus Christ the Son of God rose from the dead is still the Word which is Jesus Christ.  The Holy Spirit speaks through the Word of God and nothing else.  You CAN NOT remove the Word from Jesus Christ the Son of God and you CAN NOT remove Jesus Christ the Son of God from the Word.   If you remove on or the other you have nothing, absolutely nothing.

I do however wonder about this statement in more ways than one;  “He used a variety of mediums to communicate that event:  fire, scrolls, people, Jesus”  If we are to go back to go forward does that mean that we go back wards from Jesus, to people, to scrolls and then to fire”? 

So let’s go back wards from:

  • Jesus Christ (Word of God)
  • People (Speak new words, supposedly inspired by ‘god’)
  • Scrolls (New message is written down as being the ‘gospel’)
  • And it all ends in Fire

Hmmm….well…..um….*speechless*]

“…the METHODS always change but the MESSAGE stays the same. Translation of Greek/Hebrew into English is a new Method, but the Message hasn’t changed. Bedrock foundation of which we navigate the changes of culture and be faithful to the message God has been given throughout history.

[DTW note:  PP says that the methods (the mediums of communication) changes but the message stays the same.  Again we are to remove the Word of God because it’s not needed anymore; we have other methods of communication.]  Which is a load of rubbish.

“…what McLuhan taught us is that the MEDIUM IS THE MESSAGE. The way you say something matters as much or more than WHAT you say.”

[DTW note:  You see the Bible convicts people of sin, this is why the Bible needs to be removed by ‘PPP and Friends’ and replaced with people’s loving words instead, where there is no conviction of sin and no need to repent of sin, because there is no such thing as sin.  The Bible will soon be legally decaired hate speech. ]

“…Last supper: 12 people meet over wine in upper room and invite a guest to share what they believe and why…then it is their last supper. Omega course…12 week course in how to exit Christianity (in response to Alpha course) Lots of people wanting to exit…its about exiting toxic religion and getting to a place to ask any questions.”

[DTW note:  well, that’s pretty self explanatory.]

“A sermon is about helping people see this new creation with their own eyes.”

[DTW note:  the message Satan is tryng to get across here is this;  the idea is that you need to help people realise they have the message within them.  Help them realise they have ‘Christ’ within them.  The goal is for them to see themselves as a new creation through God’s eyes or their own eyes (third eye located in the forehead/6th charka).

“The whole world is our rhetorical toolbox, because its all God’s”

[DTW note:  This is Panentheism] 

Some prefer the pantheistic belief whereas other prefer to believe in panentheism,  Here are the definitions.

  • Panentheism:  All (pan) is in God, yet God is transcendent over everything. (Notice the difference between panentheism and pantheism). Some would assume that as everything in the universe (positioned in God) evolves, this unbiblical God would also evolve and grow in knowledge and complexity.

Pantheism:  Everything is God and God is all. Since God is everything and everything is God, everything is sacred and interconnected.

“Preaching is a Transformational Art where you try to convince the social self the inner self.”

[DTW note:  As per PPP, ‘preaching’ is now called Transformational Art (lol).  Basically what they are saying  is there is only one way to preach in this new age of ours and that is to get people to realise they are Christ.  You need to convince the person on the outside to recognise the god on the inside]

Just one little other thing I want to add. 

Maybe Zondervan a division of Harper Collins should start by going backward, to move forward by asking Harper Collins to remove the Satanic Bible from their publications list:   http://www.harpercollins.com/book/index.aspx?isbn=9780380015399

And if need be Harper Collins can go back to their subsidiary company News Corporation and ask them if they can move forward by going back to the storeroom and throw away all the Satanic Bibles they printed recently, even the ones that go way back when.  

Once they do this we can move forward from there.  But somehow I don’t think we will see any movement at all.

Now that is what they call ‘Speaking in Circles’  it’s an art form that dates way back when…and is still used today

More...

84 comments to Rob Bell, Shane Hipps, Peter Rollins teaching Arts and Crafts?

  • Discerning The World

    Jerry

    Nah, but I can give you a Bible?

  • I don’t know if you know this already but Ken Silva’s youngest brother tragically took his own life. Please lift Ken, his family and his two nephews in prayer and keep them in your prayers during this time.

  • Wow. That’s a lot of…uh…information. Could you give us the Reader’s Digest version? thanks.

    jerry

  • Amanda

    There you go again.

  • Amanda, I’m sure Ken would appreciate your prayers as well.

  • Discerning The World

    Eugene

    I am sure Ken would appreciate Iggy’s prayers as well. Oh wait, that wont happen, Iggy has made a point of ripping Ken Silva to shreds on this Online Discernamentalist blog too. You know, the place where you comment too.

  • Pete Rollins hails from my neck of the woods over here in Northern Ireland and from personal encounters I wrote about him and his ’emerging’ IKON grouping in an article here:
    [Edited: Cecil, I’ve posted your article as a post an replaced your link with mine, which will then lead back to you anyhow :)]

    I hope it may be of help to those not familiar with Mr Rollins and his ‘ministry’

    In Christ

    Cecil Andrews
    ‘Take Heed’ Ministries

  • Amanda

    Eugene Roberts has warned against discernment ministries like those of Ken Silva and Ingrid Schlueter as they divide the ‘body of Christ’. He has to bless them, though, because the LAW of LOVE binds him.

    Will there be a warning to the ‘body of Christ’ about the statements made by Shane Hipps at the Poets Prophets Preachers conference hosted by Rob Bell, the hero of South Africa’s Prof. Stephan Joubert? Prof. Joubert assured the congregation at Kruinkerk that, even though Rob Bell looks strange, when he opens his mouth, it is the Gospel.

    Some of the statements made by Shane Hipps:

    ) Practices of Energy

    First understand Physical is the conductor of Energetic body. Like copper conducts electricity. How posturing body kinks the hose…and hinders God’s divine energy from conducting.

    Can do exercises, yoga, ti-chi to retrain the body to unkink the energy.

    Can develop techniques to uncover our essence. Most are silence and solitude.

    Important to remember: the Essence is something you must eat and know…not read about and believe in. Big difference between believing and knowing.

    Ways to taste our Essence: through breath. BREATH AND SPIRIT are one and the same…ancient language attests to this. We have separated two things never intended to be separate. Every time we see SPIRIT in the Scriptures we can replace with BREATH. If you want to know what God is really like, contemplate the nature of your breath…

    In your Essence is a place of unending peace. You will always have it, no matter what happens, and you will always have it. It is the source of wisdom and compassion.

    Our goal should be to cultivate our connection to our Essence in order to help people connect to God.

    May we all continue to open ourselves, energy, and essence to experience God to better conduct God’s divine light into the world…

    When you live in your essence is the gesture of the Spirit…waves on the same ocean. Wide open, free, unchanging, one with God.

    Jesus developed mastery over the physical body through fasting, celibacy, carpentry; mastered energy by transmitting energy by healing, channeled anger to over turn tables, knew energy went from him when he was touched on cloak. Jesus also mastered ESSENCE. Had a commitment to develop access and aware of ESSENCE as us. His conviction Jesus essence and ours is not different…he just came to help us access it and be aware of it and develop it.

    FATHER FORGIVE THEM FOR THEY DONT KNOW WHAT THEY ARE DOING. Deep mastery of his Essence. Why about Essence? Body is LAND…Energy is OCEAN…Essence is the SKY. Cannot pierce or stab the sky. Only dwelling from this ‘place’ can you dwell in infinite peace. When you dwell in forgiveness it is inevitable to be in the Essence.

    2:28—THE MEDIUM IS THE MESSAGE

    Who we are…you and I are as a person is ultimately the message. Not just words. Who I am is the message. We’re gonna explore the medium of the Human being.

    This is what divides the church. There are those who would embrace brother Shane in the name of LOVE and poetry and those who would reject his teaching as not Christian AT. ALL. Chris Rosebrough pointed out that we are not the message. We are the messengers, bringing the true Gospel about Jesus Christ to the world.

    And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, so must the Son of Man be lifted up, that whoever believes in him may have eternal life. “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.
    (Joh 3:14-18)

  • AriseMyLove

    I don’t know who Ken Silva is but I do know that it is complete witchcraft to make Christ or Christianity into “performance art”… [Edited by DTW: just adding a note here that Ken Silva from apprisingministries has nothing do with with any of this, it was Rob Bell’s buddie Peter Rollins who compared performance art to Christianity. The only reason Ken Silva landed in the comments section is because ‘Iggy ‘I love to hate you’ Itodyaso’ has been also giving Ken a hard time on his Discernamentalist Mafia blog too.]

    When is preaching the Word a “performance” or “artifice”?

    Aristotle taught that art necessarily imitates nature but I have yet to meet ONE modern Christian, oh maybe T Bone Burnett if he still believes — that is a truly gifted artist. And TBone led Dylan to the Lord back in the day, so Dylan qualifies for a hot minute of a couple of born again albums.

    Other than that, I’m sticking with John Donne.

    Who are these freaks?

  • Joe

    I’m curious, did you make it to this event?

  • Discerning The World

    Did you?

  • Discerning The World

    Agree Amanda.

    >> Eugene Roberts has warned against discernment ministries like those of Ken Silva and Ingrid Schlueter as they divide the ‘body of Christ’. He has to bless them, though, because the LAW of LOVE binds him.

    Another name for this double speach is called being ‘two-faced’

  • jan(2)

    There is a bit more to Shane Hipps talk:

    medium of the human being.

    First we have a body… don’t under estimate the power of a body. God himself emobdied. Our bodies are a powerful medium … and have three different aspects of the human being: physical, energetic, essential.

    Physical: everything that’s … physical about us.

    Energetic: this is the part can’t measure and interact with our 5 senses. The sensation going on… warm, radiant, open expansive, vast of anger, love, sadness, creativity, sexual (which is connected to life, creativity, connectedness) mental processes, presence, etc.. and these energies need to be cultivated, because they can atrophy. People have different footprint sizes of that energy (ie Rob Bell vs me).People experience those energies differently.

    Essential: deepest part of who we are. Very different than the two. This one is unchanging. It is also unlimited. Open, boundless, always free. Nothing you can do to develop and expand. The only thing that changes is access to it. What changes is peoples awareness of their essence.

    Example: Mother Theresa. Had an ordinary body, charisma/energy. But lived in this place of fearlessly, endlessing giving her life away. Lived with the same thing God was made of. Same DNA of the Divine. When you know you are made of the same stuff of God you are free.

    Romans 8:11 – the very spirit who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you..that is my essence.
    …..
    Sounds like new age garbage to me.
    That’s the second time that day Mother Theresa was mentioned. Mike Rollins “the violence of Christianity is fundamentally violent… against the principalities and powers. Mother Theresa and Martin Luther King ruptured the system”. [edited DTW: fixed sentence as per request]
    Roman Catholism anyone..
    also note the reference to DNA – that’s not the last time that one will surface.

  • Amanda and Deborah

    Ken Silva was quoted in this post and I wanted to inform you of this tragic event in the hope that you would join in prayer for him and his family. Can we please put our differences aside in this instance and pray that God’s grace and mercy through His Holy Spirit will comfort Ken and his family during this time?

  • Discerning The World

    jan(2)

    that’s because it is new age (occult) teaching through and through…when will it end. *sniffs* never…just get worse day by day, hour by hour…

  • Amanda

    Ken Silva has both my prayers and my gratitude for warning the Body of Christ of the division in the church caused by false teachers. May the Lord Jesus Christ bless America for the sake of His steadfast witnesses: Ken Silva, Ingrid Schlueter, Chris Rosebrough, Todd Wilken, Todd Friel and many, many others, including the bold open air preachers. We in South Africa are blessed to be able to benefit from their hard work.

  • Discerning The World

    Tooo true!

  • Discerning The World

    There is also a lot of hypnosis at play here. They speak in circles. You spend most of the time wondering what on earth they are speaking about. And then all of a sudden you realise they are repeating themselves. They speak in riddles. They need to have a 3 day conference to tell people what they mean? And when people have left they are still not 100% sure, they are closer to the truth, and were given enough rope to go hang themselves with it by doing more reserach.

    Give me 5 minutes and I would draw a better picture than Rob could ever muster and explain his intentions, his riddles and where he is going if he does not repent of his sin.

  • Just for the record;

    We are made up of BODY, SOUL and SPIRIT…

    Body = Purely Physical
    Soul = Emotions, Intellect, etc
    Spirit = Breath/essence of man/controls our thoughts and actions

    According to the Bible one can EITHER have the Spirit of Truth OR Spirit of Error – Neither both – NOR a mixture!

    Greetings

    J O

  • I forgot to mention that these so-called preachers and teachers are keeping themselves and others so busy with techniques on how to connect with God (or should I say “god”), they lead people away from the ONLY way to know what God has written and also inspired to be written…

    Just stick to the Bible guys…

    J O

  • Discerning The World

    Great, then you should know what I am talking about.

  • Amanda

    Eugene will keep the LAW of LOVE and bless his enemies and embrace emergents, even though what is taught in the name of Christianity is not Christian at all. You shall love your neighbour with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your imagination. This is the great and only commandment.

  • Discerning The World

    I could not agree more.

  • Peter Rollins speaks in philosophical code speak and speaks precious little of redemption and atonement. He was asked what would he tell someone who asked him how he could know God, and he said he would tell them to go and serve the poor and see if he could find God there.

    There lectures are very avante-guard and a mix of circular philosophy and interesting parabolic ideas but are void of the redemptive work of Christ and the necessity for the atonement for sin. The deception is in full force and Christianity has been redefined as redemption through humanitarian acts and not through the cross alone.

    It is alluring and it soothes the conscience, but in the end, it is a way that seems right but whose path is spiritual death amidst laudable human benevolence.

  • Amanda

    Because the Gospel of Jesus Christ is so offensive to natural man.

  • Amanda

    So. is what Shane Hipps said the Christian faith or is it something else? In your opinion?

  • Joe

    It depends. When a person talks about weightlifting is that Christian or is that something else? When someone talks about the best technique to use when running is that Christian or something else?

  • Discerning The World

    Well it depends, when you know what your’re speaking about. In this case I have no idea what you’re speaking about.

  • Joe

    By the way, Discerning The World, would you mind sharing your real name? I realize given your past brush with death threats and all that grave persecution you suffered in the name of being able to sling mud on the internet you may not feel comfortable but I’m a naive curious sort so I thought I’d ask.

  • Joe

    Oh Sorry Discerning that comment was for Amanda, not you. I have no real intention of talking to you anymore. Grace and peace to you.

  • Discerning The World

    lol, you people just can’t stop can you. You might be naive, I’m not.

    Send Rob Bell here to come fight his own battles, I don’t think he needs your help.

  • Discerning The World

    >> I have no real intention of talking to you anymore

    Oh good.

  • Joe

    You are really arrogant if you think this is fighting some battle. This is nothing but me being amused before I leave for work.

  • Discerning The World

    Uh…right. Wonder what else you do for fun.

  • Discerning The World

    Here is the same answer I gave you under the Discernamentalist Mafia article:

    Dear Joe

    I think Rob Bell is very pleased with you that you are here standing up for him and his occult teaching. This is a spiritual battle. If you read your bible you would know that.

    Ephesians 6:12

    New International Version
    –For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms.

    New American Standard Bible
    –For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the powers, against the world forces of this darkness, against the spiritual forces of wickedness in the heavenly places.

    International Standard Version
    –For our struggle is not against human opponents, but against rulers, authorities, cosmic powers in the darkness around us, and evil spiritual forces in the heavenly realm.

    Gave you 3 translations just incase you don’t understand. I hope you do now.

    And then:

    Ephesians 6:10-18

    Be strong in the Lord and in the power of His might. Put on the whole armor of God, that you may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil. For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this age, against spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places.

    Therefore take up the whole armor of God, that you may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand. Stand therefore, having girded your waist with truth, having put on the breastplate of righteousness, and having shod your feet with the preparation of the gospel of peace; above all, taking the shield of faith with which you will be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked one.

    And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God; praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, being watchful to this end with all perseverance and supplication for all the saints….”

    The ARMOUR is the WORD OF GOD

    But you are always welcome to ask Rob Bell if this is true. Love to know what he has to say on this.

  • Amanda

    Got it. Shane Hipps was talking about something else, not Christianity. That is what Chris Rosebrough said, too.

  • Amanda

    Notes on Pete Rollins’ teaching as blogged by novus.lumen:

    Revelation not about revealing. … The question is not is Christianity true, but what does it mean when it claims to be true…we then just assume its like the truth of biology. Revelation does not mean we have information about God, like a biologist has something on bio-life.

    The desire to speak of God is ancient. If you can name God you can have power. But is this idea of NAMING something that God plays along with? God exists in the mind and in reality. For alot of people God exists in the mind, but not reality. Or when Jesus shows up he shows up in reality and the mind. Or first God is seen anonymously

    But possible to exist in reality and so majestic that it cant exist in the mind. God not anonymous. He is hypernonymous…don’t know something because there isnt access. God is not unknown because he doesn’t exist; he cannot be known because he cannot be grasped because of the excess…like the sun.

    The Bible is divine because of the tension and problems and difficulties. Of course you are going to have a breakdown of words when you have the infinite entering into the finite. Of course we are going to blow up and combust.

    The unnamable is omninamable…when confronted with the trauma of God not reduced into silence, but into poetry, prophecy, and preaching. As soon as you name God you create him in your image. Theology is like us trying to draw God. Jesus tears up our images of God, not paint them. As soon as we start putting words to God peoples God’s look like them…God is not the patch of meaning on the wind of our unknowing…he is the patch of unknowing we put on our wind of meaning.

    Moses…Jacob wanted to know God’s name. But he didnt give it. We dont name God, he names us.

    “When it comes to God, we have nothing to say to others and we must not be ashamed of saying it.”

    Comment made by novus.lumen:

    But like he said at the beginning…sometimes he doesn’t even believe some of what he says…maybe this is one of them?

    That is just swell.
    Pete Rollins:

    The point of incarnation is not God being revealed and we now understand it…its now the mystery is here and brought among us and lives with it. The mystery is deepened. The mystery touches us.

    Revelation is that which both reveals and conceals…brings us into light and ever more darkness….where we are changed and reconfigured and changed.

    When you go to church you should be bedazzled…and your presuppositions should be reconfigured. We are the revolutionists and the insurrectionists. Thats what parables are for: perform something, not describe something…they rupture the people. The parable cannot be simply heard, but done and incarnated.

    This is not Christianity.

  • Amanda

    Chris Rosebrough sails to the rescue, once again, to those who have trouble discerning what Shane Hipps is about.On his program Fighting for the Faith on Pirate Christian Radio, he reviews: Shane Hipps’ Sermon at Rob Bell’s Mars Hill Bible Church on the Spiritual Discipline of Silence.
    Pirate Christian Radio

    is an online radio station that proclaims the true Christian Gospel message that “Christ was crucified for our sins”. We also exalt and defend the historic Christian faith from those who are trying to replace or mix it with pop-psychology, self-help, mysticism, liberalism, and Oprah-fied spirituality.

    PCR is hard hitting, thought provoking, fiercly Biblical and always Christ Centered.

  • Discerning The World

    Craig

    >> I don’t mean to be trite, but if this is such egregious heresy that bell et al are preaching, isn’t it primarily God’s concern?

    Well then you should not worry about what I write :)

    >> Does building the kingdom really work best with a wrecking ball? That’s not what I see from scripture

    Well first things first; which Kingdom are you speaking about; the kingdom of heaven or the kingdom of God? Once you have figure it out, let me know why you think God is incapable of hangling either Kingdoms?

    And I really can’t dialogue with you, I’ve got a few things to sort out at the moment and some research on some other stuff. But I will check out your blog in a few days time. I edited/removed your link (that was in purpose), but I also accidentally deleted the wording before the link. That was a mistake. Sorry.

    Your blog name is attached your your username, people can click that and go check out the article you wrote.

  • Gosh. I was there but I must have been sleeping – all that ‘panentheistic, Hinduistic, Eastern crap’ must have been going on in another room.

    Seems like DTW you’re pretty fired up about all this. How’s that working out for you? I don’t mean to be trite, but if this is such egregious heresy that bell et al are preaching, isn’t it primarily God’s concern? Does building the kingdom really work best with a wrecking ball? That’s not what I see from scripture.

    I went to the conference and I admit that I found Rollins a bit annoying. Bell’s obviously had enough of being a punchbag but I really did think that Hipps was spot on. Just because someone talks about breathing and using one’s body to interact with God doesn’t make him full of ‘panentheistic, Hinduistic, Eastern crap’. Honestly he was about as controversial as a Pilates class.

    [url removed]

  • Amanda

    Craig:

    Just because someone talks about breathing and using one’s body to interact with God doesn’t make him full of ‘panentheistic, Hinduistic, Eastern crap’.

    Shane Hipps quotes:

    How posturing body kinks the hose…and hinders God’s divine energy from conducting.
    Can do exercises, yoga, ti-chi to retrain the body to unkink the energy.
    Can develop techniques to uncover our essence. Most are silence and solitude.
    Important to remember: the Essence is something you must eat and know…not read about and believe in.
    If you want to know what God is really like, contemplate the nature of your breath…
    In your Essence is a place of unending peace.
    It is the source of wisdom and compassion.
    Our goal should be to cultivate our connection to our Essence in order to help people connect to God.
    May we all continue to open ourselves, energy, and essence to experience God to better conduct God’s divine light into the world…
    When you live in your essence is the gesture of the Spirit…waves on the same ocean. Wide open, free, unchanging, one with God.
    Jesus developed mastery over the physical body through fasting, celibacy, carpentry; mastered energy by transmitting energy by healing, channeled anger to over turn tables, knew energy went from him when he was touched on cloak. Jesus also mastered ESSENCE.

    Craig:

    …I really did think that Hipps was spot on.

    and

    Gosh. I was there but I must have been sleeping – all that ‘panentheistic, Hinduistic, Eastern crap’ must have been going on in another room.

    There you go then.

  • Discerning The World

    oh lol, well spotted… Craig how many rooms were there? How many fingers am I holding up? ;)

  • Discerning The World

    Craig

    >> I guess we’ll just have to agree to disagree

    Unfortunately I can’t agree with anything Shane Hipps and posse has to say, unless they turn from their wicked teachings that lead people astray, away from the Bible and the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

    >> I’m happy to filter the nuances of his language and get some decent meat off the bone

    Why waste time ‘filtering’ when you can get the Truth when you read the Word of God itself.

    The Bible is the best quality meat with no bones. Hows that for a metaphor. Gosh I am getting good at this. Emergents have been telling me I am so useless with metaphors, so I’ve been practicing.

  • I guess we’ll just have to agree to disagree. Like I said, I think Hipps was good and I’m happy that the words ‘spot on’ sit beneath the quotes you’ve put up there. I’m happy to filter the nuances of his language and get some decent meat off the bone – if that’s not too much of a mixed metaphor.

    I’m happy that this Church of ours contains so many varied voices, and I think the debate’s an essential part of our communion. Of course I agree that there are absolutes, and there are things that we are instructed to turn away from, but I don’t see our primary function as followers of Christ to be internal wrangling.

    There will be many things that you and I agree on. Like I said, let’s discuss things and see what we have in common. I’m really happy to approach it in the spirit of wanting to learn from you, and you from me. But let’s agree that it will take more than the odd one-liner and quotes taken out of context to achieve that.

    Best wishes

    Craig

  • Amanda

    But let’s agree that it will take more than the odd one-liner and quotes taken out of context to achieve that.

    1. What is the correct context for the following 3 quotes?
    2. What makes it legitimate Christian teachings?

    How posturing body kinks the hose…and hinders God’s divine energy from conducting.
    Can do exercises, yoga, ti-chi to retrain the body to unkink the energy.
    Jesus developed mastery over the physical body through fasting, celibacy, carpentry; mastered energy by transmitting energy by healing, channeled anger to over turn tables, knew energy went from him when he was touched on cloak. Jesus also mastered ESSENCE.
    Craig:

    Like I said, let’s discuss things and see what we have in common. I’m really happy to approach it in the spirit of wanting to learn from you, and you from me. But let’s agree that it will take more than the odd one-liner and quotes taken out of context to achieve that.

    Your aims and methods are emergent. We are not. From About this Blog / Rules:

    We are here to defend the Christian faith, stand up for the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

    You are in the wrong place.

  • Discerning The World

    Craig

    >> but do you really think that defending the Christian faith and standing up for the gospel of Jesus Christ is best served by you guys huddling together spitting venom at those whose message and medium you despise?

    What do you suggest? We join your side instead? That means we stop standing for the gospel of Jesus Christ and defending the faith. Alll rightyyyy then. Well lets, agree to disagree here. How about you stop defending false teaching and standing on the side wickedness and people who are out to do nothing but harm to born again Christians and those seeking the truth.

    >> What about the continual theme that we see throughout scripture of God’s people engaging with the world around them?

    Oh really? Scripture please. Let’s dialogue around this topic. You quote scripture to back this up and I will quote scripture to back up my standing for the Word of God. But now we have a problem here. You can’t go and quote scritpure because you don’t believe what it says… You can’t insult those who stand and defend what the Gospel of Jesus Christ says and then use the same gospel to oppose us. You need to use something else to back up your beliefs. Make sense? So you can quote from any other religious text but the Bible. Let’s see how this pans out.

    Should be intersting. Are you up for the challenge?

  • Chad

    Oh, and keep in mind when you DO have scripture that teaches us to be engaging the world around us don’t be surprised if I delete you. I will not stand for being questioned on MY blog. Got it? Now, run along and drink a coffee and love somebody.

  • OK, I’ll make this my last comment. If I’m in the wrong place here – if I, who you consider to be emergent, am not supposed to be joining in these discussions – then what is blog other than an introspective clique?

    Of course we disagree on things, but do you really think that defending the Christian faith and standing up for the gospel of Jesus Christ is best served by you guys huddling together spitting venom at those whose message and medium you despise? What about engagement? What about dialogue? What about the continual theme that we see throughout scripture of God’s people engaging with the world around them?

    Put it another way, I’m not so sure Paul would have bookmarked this site. He probably wouldn’t have liked mine either, but that’s a whole other story.

    So, I’m sorry that we didn’t get to hit some ideas back and forth and I’m sad that I’m in the wrong place.

    Craig

  • Discerning The World

    Ryan which blog should I engage you on:

    The fake DTW 3 blog where you have commented and laughed and joked and lied about me, knowing who the person is who set it up, or
    Should I engage you on your own blog where the fake DTW is commenting and you know who it really is and you laugh and joke and lie about me.

    In fact don’t answer, I really don’t care. Others who see what you and your friends are doing will care and you expose yourself as something other than being Christian. But then again we knew this all along, and so did you, you know what’s in your heart and I won’t argue that you have something other than Jesus is there. It’s stolen the name of Jesus and it presents it’s hateful message as ‘good news’.

    I have allowed you to comment on this blog 17 times. Your time is up, and so is any kind of reputation you were trying to build for yourself.

  • Chad

    Thank God you are not Ryan’s judge. Or any one’s.

    Perhaps there is a good reason people replicate a blog like this one: You mock the grace of Jesus Christ and the only way to get through to some is satire.

  • Hey DTW

    I’ve used scripture for my own look at this article at my blog, but you haven’t engaged me there either at all.

    What Craig is saying is it doesn’t make sense to talk about Emergents and what’s so wrong with them while refusing to speak TO Emergents, for the simple fact that “it is not the healthy who need a doctor but the sick”. (Matt 9:12.) If Emergents are sick then why are you not GOING TO them? Why are some of them unwelcome at your blog, to express their opinions and be shown where they are wrong rather than told they are wrong. The shepherd guides his sheep back to the pen, he doesn’t just smack them over the head and then tell them to find their own way back!

    For, we are to “go into all the WORLD and preach the good news” (Mark 16:15). The gospel is about GOING TO the lost.

  • I don’t know who set up the DTW3 blog. Why did you assume that? Just because I let them comment on my blog?

    I didn’t lie about you on that blog, either. I made a comment where I was pretending to be a hyper-fundamentalist. Did I lie about you? No.

    But the blog is funny though. Unless your birth certificate says “Discerning the World” I don’t see how they have stolen your “identity”.

    You’re avoiding the issue. And I don’t really care about my reputation… why are you worried about yours?

  • Amanda

    Ryan:

    I’ve used scripture for my own look at this article at my blog, but you haven’t engaged me there either at all.

    Because your slip is showing? You used Scripture to defend yoga!

    Some forms of yoga and tai chi have all the spiritual stuff taken out, so it is just a form of exercise to relax the body. Scripturally, I apply Romans 14 to this.

    That is outrageous!

    Why are some of them unwelcome at your blog, to express their opinions

    Boredom? They have consistently expressed their opinion that DTW is bad for mentioning the unmentionable that is preached in the church today in the name of Christianity.

    and be shown where they are wrong rather than told they are wrong.

    Let me tell you and show you. You said:

    Of course, this is a different meditation to what DTW is speaking of, but why does she assume she knows what Rob Bell means when he speaks about it? See, the same word can mean very different things. Therefore, you have to take the word contecxt. (Now in this quote Bell only speaks of disciplines, which do not always mean spiritual disciplines. To be a good sportsman I must undergo some disciplines.)

    On Rob Bell’s Mars Hill Bible Church website you can see exactly what spiritual practices he is talking about and that they are currently studying it. On the 4 of July Shane Hipps preached on the spiritual practice of feasting. They all ate chocolate together, if I recall correctly. On the 12 of July Hipps preach on the spiritual practice of silence. This is the sermon that Chris Rosebrough ripped apart using words like ‘that is a lie’ and ‘liar’. He completely exposed the Scripture twisting used by Hipps to enslave the listeners.

    The shepherd guides his sheep back to the pen, he doesn’t just smack them over the head and then tell them to find their own way back!

    The shepherd does not order his sheep to sit and converse with wolves, either.
    Jesus Christ said:

    When he has brought out all his own, he goes before them, and the sheep follow him, for they know his voice. A stranger they will not follow, but they will flee from him, for they do not know the voice of strangers.
    (John 10:4-5)

    He presented Himself as Lord and Saviour. Those who follow Jesus as the example for moral living, is following another Jesus whom the sheep will not follow, because they do not recognise his voice. This blog is about warning the sheep. The message to the goats is repentance and the forgiveness of sins in Jesus’ name. And DTW is not a shepherd, because she is a she.

    For, we are to “go into all the WORLD and preach the good news” (Mark 16:15).

    Preach the Gospel, yes. Dialogue about what the Gospel really is, no. The emergents do know what the Gospel is, but they have rejected it in favour of the liberal’s inoffensive non-gospel.

    Using Scripture to defend yoga! How could you?

  • Discerning The World

    Ahhh you see, this is why they can say that they believe and use the word of God in their lives. They use to to take everything that is wicked and try prove it right using scripture. That is why they can use the Bible to defend Yoga. Next they will use the Bible to defend murder of those who disagree with them.

    But I must say that by the time I got to this sentence I burst out laughing…”On the 4 of July Shane Hipps preached on the spiritual practice of feasting they all ate chocolate together, if I recall correctly”

    I stopped reading after imagining a bunch of grown men ‘feasting’ on chocolate trying to be all spiritual

  • Amanda

    Craig

    What about engagement? What about dialogue?

    We are not emergent and we do not follow the rules that the emergents drew up for the church. We have no wish to be part of the ‘ Yea, hath God said’ conversation. We know how that turns out.

    What about the continual theme that we see throughout scripture of God’s people engaging with the world around them?

    Did God not warn them [see Deuteronomy for instance] and did they not suffer terribly for doing just that [see 2 Chronicles or the Wars Of The Jews by Josephus]? Jesus Christ told His disciples how to engage the world:

    “Thus it is written, that the Christ should suffer and on the third day rise from the dead, and that repentance and forgiveness of sins should be proclaimed in his name to all nations, beginning from Jerusalem.
    (Luke 24:46-47)

    Paul told the church what to do about false teachers:

    Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them. For they that are such serve not our Lord Jesus Christ, but their own belly; and by good words and fair speeches deceive the hearts of the simple.
    (Romans 16:17-18)

  • Amanda

    Well, now. I will try and explain. It goes something like this. Just as you cannot appreciate chocolate without tasting it, you cannot appreciate the pleasure of practicing the silence without doing it, just like Jesus did [NOT!]. Looking within yourself for answers is supposed to be very, very spiritual.

  • Discerning The World

    Ryan

    >> DTW, I’m sorry if I hurt you on the whole DTW3 thing. I’ll remove the comments from my blog.

    Thank you. I would really appreciate it if you please try email the person who opened this blog and tell him to delete it. It’s worth a try is it not. Because really, if he can do this to me, who says he won’t do this to you, or anyone else for that matter. This is not about beliefs. This is about morals, and values and principles. I would also like you to ask the owner of the fake blog to delete your comment you made there, not just the ones on your blog where he commented with my name. These are just personal requests from me, not demanding anything from you. So don’t take this the wrong way.

    Like I’ve said before all over this blog, I don’t care what is said about me on others blogs, like you critiquing me on YOUR blog with YOUR name. Fair and square!

    I am sure you would not like it one bit if someone went around using your name posting comments on others blogs and they think it really is you who said those things. And for them to say I brought this upon myself? So they can ‘steal’ from me and then it’s my fault because it happened? No, no, no. This type of comment has a much deeper and rather awful connotation.

    I don’t need to converse with you about this anymore Ryan. I thank you apologising, but honest and truly…I am tired and just not in the mood to discuss this anymore. I do however have a ‘Who Dunnit’ article ready and waiting to be posted, but I am being patient here, waiting to see if this person does the ‘right thing’.

  • The issues between us then go deeper than the obvious. We have different ways of reading scripture, that’s for sure.

    DTW, I’m sorry if I hurt you on the whole DTW3 thing. I’ll remove the comments from my blog.

    Amanda, you raise some very good points. Especially when you said “he doesn’t let them sit down and converse with the wolves”. That’s a good point, thank you.

    This is the kind of conversation I’m looking for with you guys. See, you’ve just helped me to look at things differently by actually showing me where you think I’m going wrong. Not through a blanket statement of “read the bible” because we all read the Bible differently, as we all have a background of sorts and churches that teach us different things. As I said in my post, even the pope says he believes the Bible! And perhaps he honestly believes he does.

    The 95 Theses was Luther’s effort in actually allowing for debate and conversation over issues; unfortunately, it also resulted in violence. Luther’s heart was to debate and find the truth, to talk about the specifics. Others took it as a way of choosing sides. I see us all on the same side, with some of us just more confused than others. That’s why iron sharpens iron, and why we must not neglect the gathering of the saints. We NEED each other to help us stay balanced and on the narrow path. But at the same time then we have to also be teachable, removing the plank from our own eye.

    That’s all I’m really hoping for from you guys, and all I hope for from my Emergent friends; and also what I get from my close friends, my pastor, and my wife.

  • Amanda

    Tell you what, Ryan. Listen to yesterday’s edition of Fighting for the Faith where Chris Rosebrough deconstructs Rob Bell’s False Gospel and his version of history. Chris says that if you do not get the Gospel right, you are sending people to hell and it does not matter how many ‘good’ deeds you do. He claims that what Rob Bell is preaching is not Christianity at all. Those are pretty serious claims. Either Chris is right and Christians should be warned against Rob Bell or Bell is doing a great job and should be supported. Let’s compare what both these men are saying to the Word of God. We can differ on the minors, but not about the major teachings of the Bible. Listen to the two hour program and tell us what your conclusion is and why.

  • I think you should post it! I love “Who Dunnit” games. When I was a kid we used to play Clue. I usually guessed it was Mrs. Peacock in the library with the gun. But then I became a genuine Christian and realized a game called “Clue” is for Emergents. Why? Because they don’t have a Clue and they are always trying to learn more about the hidden mysteries of God’s grace. Ha! If only they knew they only need to seek out my blog, oops, I mean, the Bible.

    Post it!

  • Francois

    Ryan you mentioned staying on the narrow path. That is a good and common ‘vantage point’. There are others as well. Like ‘let the cross be central’. Or let ‘all be in love’.

    The only problem is that these are only words which can become catch phrases.

    There are others as well, as: ‘let him hate his father, mother, wife and children’ or ‘I am dead’ but you will seldom hear these mentioned as ‘common ground catch phrases’.

    How do people read scripture differently?

    They don’t. They just choose which applies to them and which don’t. Of course there are a lot of stuff we don’t understand and depend on scribes to explain them to us but they differ amongst themselves and get quite uppity about it when they are questioned.

    This is what I am seeing: There is a rebellious breed ’emerging’ which have decided to disregard the severity and harshness of the Almighty and have embarked on a fearless quest to re-discover ‘church’ and re-define God at the same time. Gone with the JUDGING God. The ONE WHO WANTS TO BE FEARED. Gone with the NARROW minded old school who made us scared of God(lies actually, they are not scared).

    Think about this: The same God who commanded men, women and children to be slaughtered in Canaan is now cammanding that all should obey the gospel. He who ordered death for those who broke the law promises a worse fate to those who disobey the gospel.

    I am mentioning this due to the reckless abandon by which many are now discarding, bending, twisting the gospel and the ‘dicovering’ of new things, common grounds with other faiths and seeing the insufficiency of the apostles and prophets testimonies(scripture) wanting to be wise, clever and innovative, bringing a curse on themselves.

    It’s not a bad thing to get rid of churchy things and traditions which served to keep the system going, but where do we go?

    To Jesus. He who was there when the world was created, creating it Himself. He who was instrumental in the Destruction of Jericho and the invasion of Canaan. Who left a testimony and called it the Word of God. WHo offered hope of reconciliation with God to humanity by the miracle of the atonement.

    He didn’t come to destroy but to save but he has destroyed and will destroy again, in season of course. This is what most forget and why most do not know the fear of the Lord.

    We are all enjoying His grace and love but many use it as excuse to be obnoxious and rebellious, the bible calls it walking after the flesh. Some call it freedom.

  • That’s right, Amanda! THEY send people to hell, not God!

    Who are you guys gonna follow? Chris R or Rob Bell? You must choose this day who you will serve. A guy with funny glasses or a guy with a radio program?

    LONG LIVE CHRIS R!! What would we do without him?

    Oh, don’t forget that the Bible is all you need!

    [ADDED: This is the person who impersonated my blog and name]

  • Amen, Francois!

    I just LOVE it when these coffee-drinking emergents try to tell us that God is love. Blah blah blah….like, where is THAT in the BIble? Or how they try to tell us that we need to read those stories about God’s judgment through the eyes of Jesus who said “If you see me you see the Father.” SO WHAT?? We know who God is and what He is like. If you need to know, just ask us. Nevermind that Jesus gave his life for the world and even prayed forgiveness over those who killed him! Don’t bore me with that crap about Jesus’ teaching on humility and loving our enemies – as if God is REALLY like that! What a load of garbage.

    These emergents are just making God in their own image. Terrible!

    [Edited: This is the person who impersonated my blog and name]

  • Amanda

    Amen! A very sobering comment. Thank you for putting things into perspective.

  • Amanda

    DTW3:

    I just LOVE it when these coffee-drinking emergents try to tell us that God is love.

    This is not an emergent discovery. Christians confirm that God is love, because the Word says:

    Anyone who does not love does not know God, because God is love.
    (1 John 4:8)

    It also says:

    In this the love of God was made manifest among us, that God sent his only Son into the world, so that we might live through him. In this is love, not that we have loved God but that he loved us and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins.
    (1 John 4:9-10)

    DTW3:

    Or how they try to tell us that we need to read those stories about God’s judgment through the eyes of Jesus who said “If you see me you see the Father.”

    Sorry, I do not understand what the emergents are getting at here? I take it that ‘those stories’ refer to the history of Israel as related by Francois in his comment? How will reading it ‘through the eyes of Jesus’ change what we know about God’s wrath and judgement? Jesus Christ judged:

    “Woe to you, Chorazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! For if the mighty works done in you had been done in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes. But I tell you, it will be more bearable on the day of judgment for Tyre and Sidon than for you. And you, Capernaum, will you be exalted to heaven? You will be brought down to Hades. For if the mighty works done in you had been done in Sodom, it would have remained until this day. But I tell you that it will be more tolerable on the day of judgment for the land of Sodom than for you.”
    (Matthew 11:21-24)
    “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you are like whitewashed tombs, which outwardly appear beautiful, but within are full of dead people’s bones and all uncleanness. So you also outwardly appear righteous to others, but within you are full of hypocrisy and lawlessness. “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you build the tombs of the prophets and decorate the monuments of the righteous, saying, ‘If we had lived in the days of our fathers, we would not have taken part with them in shedding the blood of the prophets.’ Thus you witness against yourselves that you are sons of those who murdered the prophets. Fill up, then, the measure of your fathers. You serpents, you brood of vipers, how are you to escape being sentenced to hell? Therefore I send you prophets and wise men and scribes, some of whom you will kill and crucify, and some you will flog in your synagogues and persecute from town to town, so that on you may come all the righteous blood shed on earth, from the blood of innocent Abel to the blood of Zechariah the son of Barachiah, whom you murdered between the sanctuary and the altar. Truly, I say to you, all these things will come upon this generation. “O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the city that kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to it! How often would I have gathered your children together as a hen gathers her brood under her wings, and you would not! See, your house is left to you desolate. For I tell you, you will not see me again, until you say, ‘Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord.'”
    (Matthew 23:27-39)

    The Bible says about Jesus Christ:

    Then I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse! The one sitting on it is called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he judges and makes war. His eyes are like a flame of fire, and on his head are many diadems, and he has a name written that no one knows but himself. He is clothed in a robe dipped in blood, and the name by which he is called is The Word of God. And the armies of heaven, arrayed in fine linen, white and pure, were following him on white horses. From his mouth comes a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations, and he will rule them with a rod of iron. He will tread the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God the Almighty.
    (Revelation 19:11-15)

    DTW3:

    Nevermind that Jesus gave his life for the world and even prayed forgiveness over those who killed him!

    The Bible says:

    He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world.
    (1 John 2:2)

    Also:

    Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.
    (John 3:18)

    DTW3:

    Don’t bore me with that * about Jesus’ teaching on humility and loving our enemies – as if God is REALLY like that! What a load of garbage.

    The Word declares:

    The LORD passed before him and proclaimed, “The LORD, the LORD, a God merciful and gracious, slow to anger, and abounding in steadfast love and faithfulness, keeping steadfast love for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin
    (Exodus 34:6-7)

    And it continues:

    but who will by no means clear the guilty, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children and the children’s children, to the third and the fourth generation.”

    DTW3, “you are the man!” You do not love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. You do not love your neighbor as yourself. Guilty. Guilty. Guilty.

    God is a righteous judge, and a God who feels indignation every day. If a man does not repent, God will whet his sword; he has bent and readied his bow; he has prepared for him his deadly weapons, making his arrows fiery shafts. Behold, the wicked man conceives evil and is pregnant with mischief and gives birth to lies. He makes a pit, digging it out, and falls into the hole that he has made.
    (Psalms 7:11-15)

    But here is the good news, the ‘gospel’ from Rob Bell. Ready for it? He says:

    You are the Gospel!

    DTW3:

    These emergents are just making God in their own image. Terrible!

    I agree. They have a god that is love, but not righteous and holy, holy, holy and they hide the true Gospel, that Jesus Christ died for our sins, from a dying world and make up their own you-can-do-it gospels. That is not good news and it is not Christianity. Be warned:

    I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting him who called you in the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel– not that there is another one, but there are some who trouble you and want to distort the gospel of Christ. But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach to you a gospel contrary to the one we preached to you, let him be accursed. As we have said before, so now I say again: If anyone is preaching to you a gospel contrary to the one you received, let him be accursed.
    (Galatians 1:6-9)

  • Amanda

    DTW3, identity theft is not a game. Repent and knock it off.

    Ponder this mystery of grace:

    And to the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness,
    (Romans 4:5)

  • Francois

    Yes Debs

    The Lord has blessed you with the insight of where all this is leading to.

    Many are astounded at you ‘exposing’ Angus. Few realise the dangers of what is coming(is here), and curse/mock you for warning the flock.

    Will Angus really lead christians to accept a false, ecumenical, hybrid end time religion? I pray he does not and come to his senses but the bad signs are there. It’s like you say: use it/don’t use it.

  • Exactly, Amanda – Jesus judged. Surely you aren’t suggesting that you are Jesus, are you? Surely you are not saying you are a “little god” who can judge rightly and righteously, are you? This same Jesus told his followers: do not judge.

    Also, notice WHO and WHAT Jesus judged severely – the Pharisees who were sucking the heart out of a relationship with God. They were putting a heavy yoke on people – having the form of religion but none of the power. They were your present day fundamentalists, judging everyone and calling themselves holy and praying, “Thank you God for not making me like them.”

    Oh wait, I’m out of character :) That is how we should be! We should constantly thank God for not making us like THEM emergents! Let us judge, I mean, discern the world!! We can even do it from our computers and not even attempt to get to know anyone on a real level! Praise God!

    Amanda, I LOVE how you quote from Exodus and Psalms to show us who Jesus is! That is brilliant! My favorite Psalm that speaks to the heart of Jesus is,
    “Happy shall they be who take your little ones and dash them against the rock!” Psalm 137:9

    And yes, God will visit the sins of our fathers on future generations! Perhaps you (like me) have cut out that stupid passage in Jeremiah 31:27-34 where God says a new covenant is coming – one where the sins of the parents will no longer be counted against a person but each will be judged for their own sins. Or the part where God says he will forgive their iniquity and remember it no more. I HATE that part! But good job on sticking with the Exodus passage. shhhh. don’t tell anyone about this Jeremiah bit.

  • Hey Francois,

    Thank you for those comments, great!

    I agree with you that some people have tossed aside the severity of God in an effort to redefine the Gospel in dangerous ways. But at the same time others have tossed away the unconditional grace and love of God for the sake of making his severity the main thing. And this is my point: it’s not ALWAYS about punishment, punishment, punishment and sin, sin and sin. While those are parts of the Gospel message, they are not the main thing.

    Rather, we should keep the main thing the main thing – which is really the calling and commission of Jesus to preach the WHOLE Gospel, which INCLUDES repentance of sin. In other words, the Gospel isn’t JUST repentance of sin, it is also the transformation of society (Let Your will be done on Earth as it is in Heaven) and the advancing of the Kingdom over all the Earth.

    And here is one of the main areas where people do read the Bible differently, which is in the realm of eschatology (the theology of ‘last things’ or ‘last days’).

    For instance, part of what DTW sees as a problem with Angus Buchan is Angus’ very positive view of the future (speaking about revival etc.). DTW quotes scriptures to say that in the last days things will get worse, but in the same Scriptures (Mark 13, Matt 24) it also says that the Gospel would be preached to all the Earth before the end comes. How does one interpret that? If the Gospel is going to be preached to all the earth then we have something to celebrate and look forward to, and we also all have something to work towards. And this is what Angus seems to believe will happen, what he calls ‘revival’ etc.

    Now, I think DTW is a dispensationalist of sorts. Interestingly, this view of the end times is something NEW on the scene. Historically, post-millenialism, ammillenialism or the historicist perspective were always believed. A particularly negative view of the end times is actually a new thing, something that has traditionally been around for only the last 50 or so years in the church.

    So, people DO select what they like from Scripture but everyone does it and so needs to be teachable enough to take in the other views and discover the Truth of scripture in a much more accommodating way, and with a community of believers (church). Of course, there are certain established truths (like repentance of sin) which cannot be ignored, but at the same time we should not make the specifics the Gospel the all-encompassing thing but remember to keep the whole council of God in mind.

  • Discerning The World

    Ryan Peter, sorry, I mean Ryan Strydom. You say, ‘I think DTW…” Stop thinking and start reading the Bible and when you even get remotely close to quoting scripture correctly – then come back here. I suggest you start at Genisis and then you can finish at Revelations. Or maybe start at Revelantions and work your way backwards.

    Either way, just start somewhere. You have an entire Book of 100000000000 x infinity % Truth at your disposal (that’s the Bible by the way, incase you are not sure what I am speaking about). So…you have no excuse.

    Come back when you are ready to get serious. The trickster in you is so unbelievably transparent that it’s actually very sad to watch. It’s like a very bad bad movie; the ones where the entire plot is revealed in the tailor, everything that is supposed to be funny is in the trailor, and the narrator has that deep voice that makes you immediately think that this is gonna be a waste of time – yet we still watch the movie, “man, this is was just not funny, just plain stupid, what a waste of time”. Where’s the joke?” ohh…here it is:

    Emergent’s are a bunch of guys who have to draw abs on their stomach with a permanent marker pen to make themselves seem tough. This is a metaphor by the way. I know you guys love metaphors, poetry, art and riddles. And no I am in no way insulting you, metaphors and satire can’t hurt people. All you have to do is just replace whatever words you want too with your own words and then it should make you laugh.

  • Discerning The World

    Shhhhh, fake DTW 3, we don’t want to reveal who you are…ask Ryan, he knows what that’s like.

  • Discerning The World

    C,

    He does it because the hatred that runs through his veins runs black. It’s no longer about getting a reaction, its about showing off the hatred he has for me. The problem is the more he shows off the more he shows himself up. His ego is his own addiction.

  • cecilia

    Why does this person (false discerning the world) just keep going on and going on and going on? nothing better to do hey? no other blogs that you can spread your “wisdom” on? why don’t you take the time you spend on this blog, put your pc off, go out on the streets and spread the gospel of Jesus Christ?!
    oh, or is it the fact that here there is some reaction, and you are addicted to reaction on what you say? addiction in any form is bad, bad. it can destroy you! cecilia

  • Amanda

    DTW3:

    This same Jesus told his followers: do not judge.

    Jesus Christ said:

    Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day: And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.
    (Luke 24:46-47)

    So, DTW-thief, let start with the Law. One purpose of the Law is that of a mirror. It shows you how God sees you so that “every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.” (Romans 3:19) Have you ever stolen something? Have you ever dishonoured your parents? Have you ever coveted something that did not belong to you? Jesus Christ said:

    “You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall not commit adultery.’ But I say to you that everyone who looks at a woman with lustful intent has already committed adultery with her in his heart.
    (Matthew 5:27-28)

    Are you an adulterer at heart? He also said:

    “You have heard that it was said to those of old, ‘You shall not murder; and whoever murders will be liable to judgment.’ But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother will be liable to judgment; whoever insults his brother will be liable to the council; and whoever says, ‘You fool!’ will be liable to the hell of fire.
    (Matthew 5:21-22)

    Are you a murderer at heart? If you have broken any of the Ten Commandments, then God will not hold you blameless. He will punish you and give you what you deserve: hell. Good works or good intentions will not save you. You are snakebitten, full of the poison of sin. You are in need of a Saviour who knew no sin. There is Good News for you:

    And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, so must the Son of Man be lifted up, that whoever believes in him may have eternal life.
    (John 3:14-15)

    You are not the Gospel like Rob Bell said and you are not the Message either. This is the Gospel:

    For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received: that Christ died for our sins in accordance with the Scriptures, that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day in accordance with the Scriptures,
    (1 Corinthians 15:3-4)

    The Gospel saves sinners from the righteous judgement and wrath of God.

    Also, notice WHO and WHAT Jesus judged severely – the Pharisees

    Let’s see:

    “Two men went up into the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. The Pharisee, standing by himself, prayed thus: ‘God, I thank you that I am not like other men, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even like this tax collector. I fast twice a week; I give tithes of all that I get.’ But the tax collector, standing far off, would not even lift up his eyes to heaven, but beat his breast, saying, ‘God, be merciful to me, a sinner!’ I tell you, this man went down to his house justified, rather than the other. For everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, but the one who humbles himself will be exalted.”
    (Luke 18:10-14)

    The Pharisee was judged for exalting himself. He listed his good works as proof of his merit in front of God. He saw no need for a Saviour.

    We should constantly thank God for not making us like THEM emergents!

    The emergents boast about their ‘good works’ and try to impose the LAW of LOVE on Christians.

    Amanda, I LOVE how you quote from Exodus and Psalms to show us who Jesus is!

    Jesus Christ said:

    You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; and it is they that bear witness about me,
    (John 5:39)

    DTW3:

    My favorite Psalm that speaks to the heart of Jesus is, “Happy shall they be who take your little ones and dash them against the rock!” Psalm 137:9

    Amen to Psalm 137. Have you read the others also?

    Perhaps you (like me) have cut out that stupid passage in Jeremiah 31:27-34 where God says a new covenant is coming – one where the sins of the parents will no longer be counted against a person but each will be judged for their own sins. Or the part where God says he will forgive their iniquity and remember it no more.

    What are you playing at, DTW3? It seems like you object to Psalm 137, but you are accusing me of cutting Jeremiah 31 out of the Bible?

    All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness
    (2 Timothy 3:16)

  • Francois

    Ryan,

    The positive end time view is extremely deceptive. It is simply not true that the ‘bad scenario’ is a new thing. I have read a lot of things the last 19 years(since being saved). The ‘positive end time scenario’ is something which I hardly ever saw. It is a strange and bizarre concept to me. There are ante Nicene writings which prove that the BAD end time scenario is not new. Example:

    “This is the manner of the heavenly kingdom: within the space of its thousand years is comprised the resurrection of the saints, who arise either earlier or later according to their deserts: after which, when the destruction of the world and the fire of judgement have been set in motion, we shall be changed in a moment into angelic substance, by virtue of that supervesture of incorruption, and be translated into that heavenly kingdom….” Tretullian from Justin Martyr, The First Apology III.24.6

    But when this Antichrist shall have devastated all things in this world, he will reign for three years and six months, and sit in the temple at Jerusalem; and then the Lord will come from heaven in the clouds, in the glory of the Father, sending this man and those who follow him into the lake of fire; but bringing in for the righteous the times of the kingdom, that is, the rest, the hallowed seventh day; and restoring to Abraham the promised inheritance, in which kingdom the Lord declared, that many coming from the east and from the west should sit down with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.” [Irenaeus: Against Heresies, Book V, XXX]

    It is clear that Christ’s kingdom will be set up after the horrors of the tribulation and the antichrist kingdom which will be broken without human hands, according to Daniel.

    I really don’t want to debate this and am not going to.

    I do want to urge you to consider that the ’emerging’ church have many branches and most prominent is the concept that the times are getting groovy for christians. DANGER! Look at the dominionist doctrine of the NAR. Angus is heading that way. I must warn you that you are treading dangerous ground.

    I can quote many scriptures on the end time ‘bad scenario’ but the dominionists normally only quote old testament scriptures out of context. I have spent(reluctantly) hours on Rick Joyners site to look at his dominionist end time stance and can tell you in all honesty that it is fairy tale rubbish. It is unblievable how they contort scripture to agree with them.

    I don’t defend any ‘position’ or am part of any ‘school’ or denominational doctrine. So without agenda I urge you to seek the Lord and don’t listen to people but be taught by His Spirit regarding these things.

    I visit Deborahs site bacause there are very few in South Africa who challenge the ‘stream’ of end time religion. The Lord has not told me to start a site so I’ll share comments here.

  • Hey Francois,

    Thanks for the insight, I was not aware of those quotes.

    However, we can see how scripture is read differently by people that have given a lot to the church.

    For instance, Calvin and Luther were amillenialists (believe they were living in the millenium). Luther moved to historicist (that the prophecies of scripture are slowly being fulfilled). Jonathan Edwards was a post-millenialist. Both of these are pretty positive views. I myself subscribe to post-millenialism right now.

    So, I am not going to debate with you about which is right, since you don’t want to, but my point is that people have held different views of this over the centuries and therefore a positive view is not anything new either. If Edwards can hold to a more positive view of the end times why can’t Buchan?

    What we have to do is look at the dangers of all the views. While you may say a positive view is dangerous, I say a negative one is dangerous because it can give people an excuse not to preach the Gospel (if Jesus is coming back when things get really BAD, then why should I care when things get bad?). So, once again, we need a BALANCED view.

  • Francois

    Ryan,

    Wikipedia states: “The majority of postmillennialists retain the notion of a final apostasy at the end of human history,”

    A minority expects no apostacy.

    What we believe about the millenium will not affect what God has planned. It’s probably better not to have a position.

    Yet, in the current dispensation we are called to stay in the faith and be watchfull. Warnings of false prophets and false christ etc. For this we have the Scriptures and the Spirit.

    Of course I also experience and expext good things from God. The Good News brings good fruit which is a blessing to a fallen world. It’s not somber for God’s children. There is a somber truth though which is prevalent throughout scripture and by the very words of The Lord Jesus. It concerns apostacy, false prophets and a horror end time scenario. It is in line with the reprobate condition of man and the fallen condition of creation. Truth will lead to death. “you will be hated by all nations”. Taking up your cross only means following truth. That’s what brought the death penalty to our Lord.

    Ryan, for years many have wondered if there really would be an end time one faith religion and how it would unfold. It’s happening so gradually and ‘automatically’ that it is astounding. Almost unnoticable. Grounds for objection are been taken away by trusted ‘leaders’ who are steering us toward acceptance.

    The healing and salvation of societies will not come about by muslims(for example) accepting the gospel. It will come about by a hybrid interfaith religion which appeals to all. Jesus the Son of God will be outside while all think He is inside.

    You and I can still commune civilly but as you see the positive increasing I will increasingly see the deception increasing. The deviding line will increase and there will be a time when those consenting of the death of the other will think it is God’s way of dealing with it.

    I think history has shown that hard times actually caused people to turn to God so I don’t think it will cause people not to preach the gospel.

    The balanced view approach has to include compromise. In most countries on earth you can get arrested for preaching in the street. Yes western countries. Could anyone concieve of that 20 years ago? Still the dominionists think we are taking the world for Christ. There is no way ahead but compromise. That is why God, and christianity is being redefined.

  • Thanks Francois, again, for the insight.

    But what if ‘one world religion’ is Christianity? In other words, what if we only had one religion (I use the term loosely) in this world, and that religion was Christianity?

    Isn’t that the grand hope? Even Brian Mclaren said at the recent Amaharo conference that Christianity’s aim IS one world religion – only that the religion will be Christianity itself. That’s what he said.

    You said: “The healing and salvation of societies will not come about by muslims(for example) accepting the gospel. It will come about by a hybrid interfaith religion which appeals to all. Jesus the Son of God will be outside while all think He is inside.”

    The healing and salvation of societies will only come about by all accepting the Gospel, that’s why we go to the world and preach it. The interfaith religion is a hopeless cause, because it, in itself, will then have to be intolerant of other religions for it to work. In other words, I think it is a pipe dream and a useless cause and one that will simply not come to pass because its weaknesses are obvious. If it does come to pass, Jesus will crush it just like He does every other rebellion and apostasy.

    I’m not denying that apostacy happens or even will happen. But when I talk of ‘balanced’ I am talking within Christianity, not within religion in general. I am agreeing with Luther that salvation is found outside of the Catholic Church, but not outside of Christ. He took a balanced view on that.

    So, in the same vein, salvation is found outside of hyper-fundamentalism but not outside of Christ. Salvation is found outside of the views made at this blog, but not outside of Christ.

    But DTW herself doesn’t seem to take this view. Rather, she seems to make statements that make me believe she believes salvation is found ONLY within her particular beliefs of Christianity, just like the Catholics once believed ONLY their beliefs were the ‘only way’. How is this exclusive attitude any different to how the catholics saw it? Does DTW have exclusivity on all truth? What if she is only an eye and I am only a toe? Should I say that because I am only a toe I am not a part of the body? Just because other parts of the body look different doesn’t mean they are not a part of the body. (1 Cor 13.)

    Salvation is only found in Jesus Christ, the Son of God, but people all have different journeys towards Christ. I’m NOT saying Muslims who worship Allah are worshipping Christ, that Christ and Allah are the same. I’m saying that we all come to Christ by our own roads, but the road OF Christ is only one road. Once you’re on it, the road is the same, but the way you got there may be different simply because of where you were born and such things.

    For instance, Paul came to Christ after he saw Him, a vision of Him on the road. Did we all come to Christ that way? No, we didn’t. We all came to Christ in different ways, but it is true that we came to CHRIST, the genuine Jesus.

    So my final point is we ought to respect those parts of the body of Christ that look different to us, speak different to us, and even think differently to us. For no one can say “Jesus is Lord” except by the Spirit of God, says the Bible in 1 Cor 13:3. Emergents say “Jesus is Lord” so who am I to say they are not a part of the body of Christ? Shall not the Lord judge His own?

  • When I say “salvation is found outside of hyper-fundamentalism but not outside of Christ. Salvation is found outside of the views made at this blog, but not outside of Christ” I mean that salvation is ALSO found outside hyper-fundamentalism. In other words, it is found both in and without it.

  • Discerning The World

    Ryan

    I and ALL born again Christians believe in the Bible, that Jesus Christ, is the way, the truth and the life. We believe in the Gospel of Jesus Christ as He preached it when He walked this earth, to the Holy Spirit written Word of God thereafter.

    These are the FUNDAMENTALS of Scripture that ALL born again Christians believe in wholeheartedly:
    -The verbal inerrancy of Scripture
    -The divinity of Jesus Christ
    -The virgin birth
    -The substitutionary theory of the atonement
    -The physical resurrection and the bodily return of Christ

    These are Chad Holtz’s new fundamentals. You and Chad are in Emergent dialogue(agreement) together.
    -Jesus Christ is Lord
    -Love God and neighbor
    -Love justice, seek mercy, walk humbly with our God.
    -Christ has died, Christ is risen, Christ will come again.
    -Love wins.
    See here:

    You believe what Brian McLaren has to say:

    Brian McLaren:
    “What if there are thousands of John Calvins out there…. what if God decided to make a lot of them gay?”
    ––Brian McLaren, Lecture at Princeton Theological Seminary, Nov. 2005

    “I don’t think we’ve got the gospel right yet. What does it mean to be ‘saved’?…. I don’t think the liberals have it right. But I don’t think we have it right either. None of us has arrived at orthodoxy.”
    ––Brian McLaren, The Emergent Mystique, Christianity Today, 2004

    “Tony [Campolo] and I might disagree on the details, but I think we are both trying to find an alternative to both traditional Universalism and the narrow, exclusivist understanding of hell [that unless you explicitly accept and follow Jesus, you are excluded from eternal life with God and destined for hell].”
    –Brian McLaren’s Inferno 2, Out of Ur, May 2006

    “What if Jesus’ secret message reveals a secret plan?”…. What if he didn’t come to start a new religion–but rather came to start a political, social, religious, artistic, economic, intellectual, and spiritual revolution that would give birth to a new world?”
    ––Brian McLaren, The Secret Message of Jesus, p. 4

    “Frankly, many of us don’t know what we should think about homosexuality. We’ve heard all sides but no position has yet won our confidence so that we can say “it seems good to the Holy Spirit and us.”
    –Brian McLaren on the Homosexual Question, Out of Ur, Jan. 2006

    Brian McLaren says of Alan Jones’ book Reimagining Christianity:

    “…. Alan Jones is a pioneer in reimagining a Christian faith that emerges from authentic spirituality. His work stimulates and encourages me deeply.” (Brian McLaren’s comments on the back flap of Alan Jones’ book Reimagining Christianity where Alan Jones states the following about the Christ’s crucifixion: “The Church’s fixation on the death of Jesus as the universal saving act must end, and the place of the cross must be reimagined in Christian faith. Why? Because of the cult of suffering and the vindictive God behind it.” (p. 132)
    “The other thread of just criticism addresses the suggestion implicit in the cross that Jesus’ sacrifice was to appease an angry god. Penal substitution [the Cross] was the name of this vile doctrine.” (p. 168)

    Brian McLaren’s endorsement of Steve Chalke and Alan Mann’s book “The Lost Message of Jesus”:

    “Steve Chalke’s new book [The Lost Message of Jesus] could help save Jesus from Christianity. That’s a strange way of putting it, I know. Not that the real Jesus needs saving. But when one contrasts the vital portrait of Jesus painted by Steve with the tense caricature drawn so often by modern Christianity, one can’t help but feeling the ‘Jesus’ of modern Christianity is in trouble. The Jesus introduced by Steve in these pages sounds like someone who can truly save us from our trouble”
    In this book the authors refer to Christ’s crucifixion on the cross as “a form of cosmic child abuse.” Brian McLaren endorses this book.

    “Scripture is something God had ‘let be,’ and so it is at once God’s creation and the creation of the dozens of people and communities and cultures who produced it.”
    ––Brian McLaren, A Generous Orthodoxy, p. 162

    “Perhaps our ‘inward-turned, individual-salvation-oriented, un-adapted Christianity’ is a colossal and tragic misunderstanding, and perhaps we need to listen again for the true song of salvation, which is ‘good news to all creation.’ So perhaps it’s best to suspend what, if anything, you ‘know’ about what it means to call Jesus ‘Savior’ and to give the matter of salvation some fresh attention. Let’s start simply. In the Bible, save means ‘rescue’ or ‘heal’. It emphatically does not mean ‘save from hell’ or ‘give eternal life after death,’ as many preachers seem to imply in sermon after sermon. Rather its meaning varies from passage to passage, but in general, in any context, save means ‘get out of trouble.’ The trouble could be sickness, war, political intrigue, oppression, poverty, imprisonment, or any kind of danger or evil.”
    ––Brian McLaren, A Generous Orthodoxy, p. 93

    “How do you know if something is true?…First, you engage in spiritual practices like prayer, Bible reading, forgiveness, and service. Then you see what happens; you remain open to experience. Finally, you report your experience to others in the field of spirituality for their discernment, to see if they confirm your findings or not.”
    ––Brian McLaren, A Generous Orthodoxy, p. 199

    “The church latched on to that old doctrine of original sin like a dog to a stick, and before you knew it, the whole gospel got twisted around it. Instead of being God’s big message of saving love for the whole world, the gospel became a little bit of secret information on how to solve the pesky legal problem of original sin.”
    –Brian McLaren, The Last Word and the Word After That, p.134

    “Western Christianity has (for the last few centuries anyway) said relatively little about mindfulness and meditative practices, about which Zen Buddhism has said much. To talk about different things is not to contradict one another; it is, rather, to have much to offer one another, on occasion at least.”
    —Brian McLaren, A Generous Orthodoxy, p. 225

    “I must add, though, that I don’t believe making disciples must equal making adherents to the Christian religion. It may be advisable in many circumstances to help people become followers of Jesus and remain within their Buddhist, Hindu, or Jewish contexts.”
    —Brian McLaren, A Generous Orthodoxy, p. 260

    Brian McLaren’s view on how we can “solve” the homosexuality issue within Christianity: No one is allowed to talk about it unless they have enough points:

    “10 if you have considered and studied the relevant biblical passages
    10 if you have actually read the six passages about homosexuality in the bible
    20 if you have read other passages that might affect the way you read those six passages
    5 if you have read one or more books that reinforce the position you already hold
    25 if you have read one or more books arguing the opposite position
    10 if you have spent three hours reading websites showing a variety of views
    50 for every friend you have who’s been through an ex-gay ministry
    50 for every friend who’s been through an ex-gay ministry that didn’t work
    50 for every friend who’s gay and in a long-term committed relationship
    50 for every friend who’s gay and not in a committed relationship
    50 for every parent you’ve listened to whose child is gay
    When you have 3,000 points, you can speak on the issue.”
    –Brian McLaren, Generous Orthodoxy Conference: The Gay Forum, 2005

    ***************
    Jesus Christ the Son of God’s message is ALL ABOUT REPENTANCE OF SIN.
    ***************
    The False Christ says there is not such thing as sin – If you can find a message (outside of the Bible) that supports what you think it correct then that’s what the truth is.
    ***************

    It is written:

    Luke 13:1-5
    1 Now on the same occasion there were some present who reported to Him about the Galileans whose blood Pilate had mixed with their sacrifices.
    2 And Jesus said to them, “Do you suppose that these Galileans were greater sinners than all other Galileans because they suffered this fate?
    3 I tell you, no, but unless you repent, you will all likewise perish.
    4 “Or do you suppose that those eighteen on whom the tower in Siloam fell and killed them were worse culprits than all the men who live in Jerusalem?
    5 I tell you, no, but unless you repent, you will all likewise perish.”

    Romans 3.10-11
    As it is written: “There is none righteous, no, not one; there is none who understands; there is none who seeks after God”

    Romans 3.23
    For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God

    Romans 6.23
    For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

    Revelation 20:15
    anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.

    Isaiah 53:6
    All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned, every one, to his own way; and the LORD has laid on Him the iniquity of us all.

    Hebrews 9:22
    according to the law almost all things are purified with blood, and without shedding of blood there is no remission.

    Romans 10:9-10,13
    That if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.
    For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
    For “whoever calls on the name of the LORD shall be saved.”

    Acts 3:19
    Repent therefore and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out

    Acts 4:12
    Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.

    John 1:12
    But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name.

    Matthew 7:13-14
    13 “Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it.
    14 “For the gate is small and the way is narrow that leads to life, and there are few who find it.

    Matthew 7:21-23
    21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.
    22 “Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?’
    23 “And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.’

    Matthew 10:11-15
    11 “And whatever city or village you enter, inquire who is worthy in it, and stay at his house until you leave that city.
    12 “As you enter the house, give it your greeting.
    13 “If the house is worthy, give it your blessing of peace. But if it is not worthy, take back your blessing of peace.
    14 “Whoever does not receive you, nor heed your words, as you go out of that house or that city, shake the dust off your feet.
    15 “Truly I say to you, it will be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrah in the day of judgment than for that city.

    Matthew 10:16-23
    16″Behold, I send you out as sheep in the midst of wolves; so be shrewd as serpents and innocent as doves.
    17″But beware of men, for they will hand you over to the courts and scourge you in their synagogues;
    18 and you will even be brought before governors and kings for My sake, as a testimony to them and to the Gentiles.
    19″But when they hand you over, do not worry about how or what you are to say; for it will be given you in that hour what you are to say.
    20″For it is not you who speak, but it is the Spirit of your Father who speaks in you.
    21″Brother will betray brother to death, and a father his child; and children will rise up against parents and cause them to be put to death.
    22″You will be hated by all because of My name, but it is the one who has endured to the end who will be saved.

    23″But whenever they persecute you in one city, flee to the next; for truly I say to you, you will not finish going through the cities of Israel until the Son of Man comes.

    Matthew 10:28
    28 “Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

    Matthew 10:32-39
    32″Therefore everyone who confesses Me before men, I will also confess him before My Father who is in heaven.
    33″But whoever denies Me before men, I will also deny him before My Father who is in heaven.
    34″Do not think that I came to bring peace on the earth; I did not come to bring peace, but a sword.
    35″For I came to SET A MAN AGAINST HIS FATHER, AND A DAUGHTER AGAINST HER MOTHER, AND A DAUGHTER-IN-LAW AGAINST HER MOTHER-IN-LAW;
    36 and A MAN’S ENEMIES WILL BE THE MEMBERS OF HIS HOUSEHOLD.
    37″He who loves father or mother more than Me is not worthy of Me; and he who loves son or daughter more than Me is not worthy of Me.

    38″And he who does not take his cross and follow after Me is not worthy of Me.
    39″He who has found his life will lose it, and he who has lost his life for My sake will find it.

    Jude 1:7
    7 just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities around them, since they in the same way as these indulged in gross immorality and went after strange flesh, are exhibited as an example in undergoing the punishment of eternal fire.

    2 Peter 2:1-9
    1 But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will also be false teachers among you, who will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing swift destruction upon themselves.
    2 Many will follow their sensuality, and because of them the way of the truth will be maligned;
    3 and in their greed they will exploit you with false words; their judgment from long ago is not idle, and their destruction is not asleep.
    4 For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but cast them into hell and committed them to pits of darkness, reserved for judgment;
    5 and did not spare the ancient world, but preserved Noah, a preacher of righteousness, with seven others, when He brought a flood upon the world of the ungodly;
    6 and if He condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah to destruction by reducing them to ashes, having made them an example to those who would live ungodly lives thereafter;
    7 and if He rescued righteous Lot, oppressed by the sensual conduct of unprincipled men
    8 (for by what he saw and heard that righteous man, while living among them, felt his righteous soul tormented day after day by their lawless deeds),
    9 then the Lord knows how to rescue the godly from temptation, and to keep the unrighteous under punishment for the day of judgment,

  • Discerning The World

    hyper-fundamentalism = Bible believing born again Christians.

  • Amanda

    Isn’t that the grand hope?

    It is a false hope. Christianity will not rule the world. The Bible says:

    But understand this, that in the last days there will come times of difficulty. For people will be lovers of self, lovers of money, proud, arrogant, abusive, disobedient to their parents, ungrateful, unholy, heartless, unappeasable, slanderous, without self-control, brutal, not loving good, treacherous, reckless, swollen with conceit, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God, having the appearance of godliness, but denying its power. Avoid such people. For among them are those who creep into households and capture weak women, burdened with sins and led astray by various passions, always learning and never able to arrive at a knowledge of the truth. Just as Jannes and Jambres opposed Moses, so these men also oppose the truth, men corrupted in mind and disqualified regarding the faith. But they will not get very far, for their folly will be plain to all, as was that of those two men.
    (2 Timothy 3:1-9)

    Ryan:

    Even Brian Mclaren said at the recent Amaharo conference that Christianity’s aim IS one world religion – only that the religion will be Christianity itself.

    No, that is not Christianity’s aim, because that contradicts Scripture. In which session did he say this? I know he was asked to give his opinion on the statement that the story of God had a beginning and is reaching an ending, as much as Christianity had a beginning and is reaching an ending. He went all over the place with this question, but he never denied it. He said: There is a story of human beings understanding God and our understandings of God have changed and need to continue to change as long as our ideas aren’t perfect.” He even used Luther’s name to justify ‘taking another step’. The Reformation was about going back to the Bible, not about stepping away from it like he is doing.

    The healing and salvation of societies will only come about by all accepting the Gospel, that’s why we go to the world and preach it.

    No. The emergents have many gospels. Shane Hipps said: “You are the message.” Rob Bell said: “You are the gospel.”
    The healing and salvation of societies? Where is that in the Bible?

    The interfaith religion is a hopeless cause, because it, in itself, will then have to be intolerant of other religions for it to work.

    The New Age is an interfaith religion. Everybody get to keep their own faith traditions, but through meditation they realize that all is one and that we are all children of the same God. All religions fit in, except Christianity with its exclusive claims.

    If it does come to pass, Jesus will crush it just like He does every other rebellion and apostasy.

    This is how He is going to do it at the end:

    Then I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse! The one sitting on it is called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he judges and makes war. His eyes are like a flame of fire, and on his head are many diadems, and he has a name written that no one knows but himself. He is clothed in a robe dipped in blood, and the name by which he is called is The Word of God. And the armies of heaven, arrayed in fine linen, white and pure, were following him on white horses. From his mouth comes a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations, and he will rule them with a rod of iron. He will tread the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God the Almighty. On his robe and on his thigh he has a name written, King of kings and Lord of lords. Then I saw an angel standing in the sun, and with a loud voice he called to all the birds that fly directly overhead, “Come, gather for the great supper of God, to eat the flesh of kings, the flesh of captains, the flesh of mighty men, the flesh of horses and their riders, and the flesh of all men, both free and slave, both small and great.” And I saw the beast and the kings of the earth with their armies gathered to make war against him who was sitting on the horse and against his army. And the beast was captured, and with it the false prophet who in its presence had done the signs by which he deceived those who had received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped its image. These two were thrown alive into the lake of fire that burns with sulfur. And the rest were slain by the sword that came from the mouth of him who was sitting on the horse, and all the birds were gorged with their flesh.
    (Revelation 19:11-21)

    Ryan:

    So, in the same vein, salvation is found outside of hyper-fundamentalism but not outside of Christ.

    What is your definition of hyper-fundamentalism? And fundamentalism?

    just like the Catholics once believed ONLY their beliefs were the ‘only way’.

    Once believed? When did they change?

    Just because other parts of the body look different doesn’t mean they are not a part of the body.

    Only Christians are part of the body of Christ. If you believe that you are the Gospel, then you are not saved and you are not part of the body of Christ.

    I’m saying that we all come to Christ by our own roads, but the road OF Christ is only one road. Once you’re on it, the road is the same, but the way you got there may be different simply because of where you were born and such things.

    Unless and until you enter through the narrow gate, you are not saved. You are on the road that leads to destruction:

    “Enter by the narrow gate. For the gate is wide and the way is easy that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many. For the gate is narrow and the way is hard that leads to life, and those who find it are few.
    (Matthew 7:13-14)

    Ryan:

    We all came to Christ in different ways, but it is true that we came to CHRIST, the genuine Jesus.

    The genuine Jesus Christ is the Savior who saves sinners from the wrath of God. The false Jesus of the emergents came to show us the better way to live.

    So my final point is we ought to respect those parts of the body of Christ that look different to us, speak different to us, and even think differently to us.

    No! How can you say that? Scripture says:

    I appeal to you, brothers, to watch out for those who cause divisions and create obstacles contrary to the doctrine that you have been taught; avoid them. For such persons do not serve our Lord Christ, but their own appetites, and by smooth talk and flattery they deceive the hearts of the naive.
    (Romans 16:17-18)

    Ryan:

    Emergents say “Jesus is Lord” so who am I to say they are not a part of the body of Christ?

    How can Jesus be Lord if they replace the true Gospel that Christ died for our sins in accordance with the Scriptures, with “You are the Gospel”? As Chris Rosebrough says, we are to compare what they say in the name of God to the Word of God. The Word of God warns:

    But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach to you a gospel contrary to the one we preached to you, let him be accursed. As we have said before, so now I say again: If anyone is preaching to you a gospel contrary to the one you received, let him be accursed.
    (Galatians 1:8-9)

    Go and listen to Chris Rosebrough debunking the false teachings of Rob Bell, Shane Hipps and Brian McLaren and tell me where he is wrong.
    Deconstructing Rob Bell’s False Gospel
    Shane Hipps’ Sermon at Rob Bell’s Mars Hill Bible Church on the Spiritual Discipline of Silence
    Brian McLaren Blames “The Christian Faith” for Colonialism, Racism, Slavery, and Destruction of the Environment

  • Hi Amanda,

    Amanda: “It is a false hope. Christianity will not rule the world.” You also then quoted 2 Tim 3:1-9.

    It’s a good quote. But right at the end of the Scripture you quoted it says: “But they will not get very far, for their folly will be plain to all, as was that of those two men.”

    The Bible also says:
    Matt 24:14 “And the gospel of the kingdom will be proclaimed throughout the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.”

    Amanda: “In which session did he say this?”

    He said this in his “African Reformation” session. Incidentally, I don’t concur with EVERYTHING Brian Mclaren says, I was making the point that Emergents want to see Christianity as the world religion.

    Amanda: “The healing and salvation of societies? Where is that in the Bible?”

    Isaiah 58:12
    “Your people will rebuild the ancient ruins and will raise up the age-old foundations; you will be called Repairer of Broken Walls, Restorer of Streets with Dwellings”

    Matthew 6:10
    “your kingdom come, your will be done on earth as it is in heaven.”

    Matt 5:3-9,10
    “Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called sons of God”
    “Blessed are those who are persecuted for righteousness’ sake, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven”.

    Did you know that the word “righteousness” used in that scripture above, and in most places in the Bible, is the greek word “dikaiosunh” and it means justice as well? The word means ‘righteousness’ in a broad sense, and ‘justice’ in a narrow sense. It means ‘righteous-justice’. You will see God is very concerned about justice in this world. Look it up in a bible dictionary, or check the online bible at bible.org which also gives the original greek.

    Rom 14:17
    “For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking but of righteousness/justice and peace/shalom and joy in the Holy Spirit”.

    In fact, the entire concept of “Shalom” (peace, and Jesus is the prince of Peace, prince of Shalom) is a concept that includes not just ‘peace’ inside a person, but peace in the world and society; and not just peace but also abundance for all. You can do a study on Shalom to see this. And is peace not a promise from God? If his will should be done on earth as it is done in heaven, then what should earth look like right now?

    I have a question for you: have you ever wondered what the message of the Kingdom was that Jesus was preaching before he died? The revelation of the cross had not been given yet, so what was he preaching? How were those people he was preaching to getting saved? Was he preaching repentance only? Or repentance as the beginning into something else? Why did he only say he came to the lost sheep of Israel? What were Israel waiting for at the time? These questions lead to some very interesting answers.

    Amanda: “What is your definition of hyper-fundamentalism? And fundamentalism?”

    It’s difficult to say, because some who claim to be ‘fundamentalists’ are not the same as others who do.

    Hyper-fundamentalists are extreme fundamentalists. They are generally ‘elitist’ where they claim to have all the truth and anyone who is a little different to them has no truth whatsoever. Everyone outside of their grouping or particularly interpretation of the Bible is eternally lost. In short, I see hyper-fundamentalism as a form of religion. I wrote a post on this at my blog, called “the spiritual dangers of hyper-fundamentalism.” You can read more on my opinion there.

    Amanda: “Once believed? When did they change?”
    I believe the Catholic church officially changed their stance at Vatican II.

    Amanda: “The genuine Jesus Christ is the Savior who saves sinners from the wrath of God. The false Jesus of the emergents came to show us the better way to live.”
    Yes, Jesus is the saviour who saves sinners from God’s just wrath. But, did he not ALSO come to show us a better way to live? What were the Beatitudes all about?

    Amanda: “No! How can you say that?
    I can say it quite simply because the Bible says it in Romans 12 and in 1 Cor 12.

    1 Cor 12:20 “As it is, there are many parts, yet one body.” and 1 Cor 12:12: “For just as the body is one and has many members, and all the members of the body, though many, are one body, so it is with Christ. For in one Spirit we were all baptized into one body – Jews or Greeks, slaves or free – and all were made to drink of one Spirit.” The Bible then goes on to talk about how the eye cannot say to the hand “I have no need of you.”

    Amanda: “Only Christians are part of the body of Christ. If you believe that you are the Gospel, then you are not saved and you are not part of the body of Christ.”

    Yes, only Christians are only a part of the body of Christ. If you believe in Jesus, you ARE saved, for John 3:16 says “whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life.” Those who believe, are saved.

    Remember a prodigal SON is still a son, even if he is a prodigal. All the pictures in the Bible that talk about being saved are pictures that show it cannot be undone. No one can be ‘unborn again’ nor can anyone be unadopted. There is no where in the Bible where you will find someone is unborn again or unadopted from God’s family, and then readopted. This means that even if some believers in Jesus are off track, they are not necessarily not saved. What will happen to them at the end of time, however? 1 Cor 3. They will lose their reward and inheritance, but will not lose their entrance into heaven. This loss of reward will be permanent, they will spend eternity with no reward.

    Amanda: “How can Jesus be Lord if they replace the true Gospel that Christ died for our sins in accordance with the Scriptures, with “You are the Gospel”?”

    What they are saying is that people look at your life as well as your words. You are the messenger or the good news, and your message includes both your words and your lifestyle. It lines up to that famous Francis of Assisi quote “preach the Gospel, and if necessary use words” although I don’t agree with that quote myself.

    I’ll listen to Rosebrough when I’ve got some time. Thanks for the links.

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Rob Bell, Shane Hipps, Peter Rollins teaching Arts and Crafts?

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