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Seals, Trumpets, Bowls and The Blessed Hope

7DTW AuthorIcon75 Seals, Trumpets, Bowls and The Blessed Hope

seals trumpets bowls and the blessed hope Seals, Trumpets, Bowls and The Blessed HopeI marvel at why Christians want to go through the tribulation, especially when the Bible is clear that Jesus is going to ‘catch away’ the body of Christ before the Tribulations starts.  Besides the Mark of the Beast where you will not be able to buy or sell, there are many other horrific things that are going to take place.

The Book of Revelation speaks about the seven seals, the seven trumpets and the seven bowls which are God’s judgement on mankind.  Many people don’t understand that the  antiChrist is one of God’s 1st judgement on mankind and falls under the First Seal.

Let’s have a look at these things:

The Seven Seals

First Seal:  The Conqueror

Rev 6:1-2

1 Now I saw when the Lamb opened one of the seals; and I heard one of the four living creatures saying with a voice like thunder, “Come and see.”   2And I looked, and behold, a white horse. He who sat on it had a bow; and a crown was given to him, and he went out conquering and to conquer.

  1. The White Horse = The Anti-Christ.
  2. He has a bow but now arrows.
  3. He goes out conquering and to conquer.

Second Seal: Conflict on Earth

Rev 6:3-4

3 When He opened the second seal, I heard the second living creature saying, “Come and see.” 4 Another horse, fiery red, went out. And it was granted to the one who sat on it to take peace from the earth, and that people should kill one another; and there was given to him a great sword.

  1. The Red Horse = War.
  2. He is given a great sword.
  3. Takes peace away from the earth that people will start killing one another.

Third Seal: Scarcity on Earth

Rev 6:5-6

5 When He opened the third seal, I heard the third living creature say, “Come and see.” So I looked, and behold, a black horse, and he who sat on it had a pair of scales in his hand. 6And I heard a voice in the midst of the four living creatures saying, “A quart of wheat for a denarius, and three quarts of barley for a denarius; and do not harm the oil and the wine.”

  1. The Black Horse = Famine
  2. A day’s wages for a day’s food
  3. Oil and wine will not be touched.

Fourth Seal: Widespread Death on Earth

Rev 6:7-87

When He opened the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth living creature saying, “Come and see.” 8 So I looked, and behold, a pale horse. And the name of him who sat on it was Death, and Hades followed with him. And power was given to them over a fourth of the earth, to kill with sword, with hunger, with death, and by the beasts of the earth.

  1. The Pale Horse =  Death.
  2. Hell followed with him.
  3. Killed with the sword
  4. One-fourth of the earth’s population is killed.
  5. Killed with hunger, with death, and with the beasts of the earth.

Fifth Seal: The Cry of the Martyrs

Rev 6:9-119

When He opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony which they held. 10And they cried with a loud voice, saying, “How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?” 11 Then a white robe was given to each of them; and it was said to them that they should rest a little while longer, until both the number of their fellow servants and their brethren, who would be killed as they were, was completed.

  1. Martyrdom.
  2. Murdered for preaching the Word of God and fore their testimony.
  3. They are given white robes.

Sixth Seal: Cosmic Disturbances

Rev 6:12-1712

I looked when He opened the sixth seal, and behold,there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became like blood. 13 And the stars of heaven fell to the earth, as a fig tree drops its late figs when it is shaken by a mighty wind. 14 Then the sky receded as a scroll when it is rolled up, and every mountain and island was moved out of its place. 15 And the kings of the earth, the great men, the rich men, the commanders, the mighty men, every slave and every free man, hid themselves in the caves and in the rocks of the mountains, 16 and said to the mountains and rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of Him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! 17 For the great day of His wrath has come, and who is able to stand?”

  1. Great Earthquake.
  2. The sun becomes black.
  3. The moon becomes like blood.
  4. The stars from heaven fall to earth.
  5. The sky recedes like a scroll.
  6. Every mountain and island moves out of place.
  7. Every single person on earth hides.
  8. The great day of His wrath is come – No one is able to stand!

Seventh Seal: Prelude to the Seven Trumpets

Rev 8:1

1 When He opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven for about half an hour.

  1. Silence in Heaven for half an hour.

The Seven Trumpets

First Trumpet: Vegetation Struck 

Revelation 8:6-7 So the seven angels who had the seven trumpets prepared themselves to sound. 7 The first angel sounded: And hail and fire followed, mingled with blood, and they were thrown to the earth.[a] And a third of the trees were burned up, and all green grass was burned up.

  1. First Trumpet = Destruction of vegetation
  2. Hail and fire mingled with blood thrown to earth
  3. 1/3 of earths trees and grass burnt up.

Second Trumpet: The Seas Struck

Revelation 8:8-9

8 Then the second angel sounded: And something like a great mountain burning with fire was thrown into the sea, and a third of the sea became blood. 9 And a third of the living creatures in the sea died, and a third of the ships were destroyed.

  1. Second Trumpet = Destruction of the sea.
  2. Great mountain burning with fire thrown into the sea.
  3. 1/3 of the sea becomes blood.
  4. 1/3 of seas living creatures die.
  5. 1/3 of earths ships are destroyed.

Third Trumpet: The Waters Struck

Revelation 8:10-11

10 Then the third angel sounded: And a great star fell from heaven, burning like a torch, and it fell on a third of the rivers and on the springs of water. 11The name of the star is Wormwood. A third of the waters became wormwood, and many men died from the water, because it was made bitter.

  1. Third Trumpet = Destruction of earth’s water
  2. A great star falls, burning like a torch to earth.
  3. Name of the star is Wormwood.
  4. 1/3 of earth’s rivers and spring waters become bitter
  5. Many people die from drinking the water.

Fourth Trumpet: The Heavens Struck

Revelation 8:12

12 Then the fourth angel sounded: And a third of the sun was struck, a third of the moon, and a third of the stars, so that a third of them were darkened. A third of the day did not shine, and likewise the night.

  1. Fourth Trumpet = Destruction of the heavens.
  2. 1/3 of the sun is struck and is darkened.
  3. 1/3 of the moon is struck and is darkened.
  4. 1/3 of the stars is struck and is darkened.
  5. 1/3 of the day does not shine nor the night.

Fifth Trumpet: The Locusts from the Bottomless Pit

Revelation 9:1-12

1 Then the fifth angel sounded: And I saw a star fallen from heaven to the earth. To him was given the key to the bottomless pit. 2 And he opened the bottomless pit, and smoke arose out of the pit like the smoke of a great furnace. So the sun and the air were darkened because of the smoke of the pit. 3Then out of the smoke locusts came upon the earth. And to them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power. 4 They were commanded not to harm the grass of the earth, or any green thing, or any tree, but only those men who do not have the seal of God on their foreheads.5 And they were not given authority to kill them, but to torment them for five months. Their torment was like the torment of a scorpion when it strikes a man. 6 In those days men will seek death and will not find it; they will desire to die, and death will flee from them.
7 The shape of the locusts was like horses prepared for battle. On their heads were crowns of something like gold, and their faces were like the faces of men. 8 They had hair like women’s hair, and their teeth were like lions’teeth. 9 And they had breastplates like breastplates of iron, and the sound of their wings was like the sound of chariots with many horses running into battle. 10 They had tails like scorpions, and there were stings in their tails. Their power was to hurt men five months. 11 And they had as king over them the angel of the bottomless pit, whose name in Hebrew is Abaddon, but in Greek he has the name Apollyon.
12 One woe is past. Behold, still two more woes are coming after these things.

  1. Fifth Trumpet = Locusts from hell.
  2. The FIRST woe.
  3. Angel (Star from heaven) opens the bottomless bit.
  4. Smoke from the pit darkens the air and the sun.
  5. Locusts are released from the bottomless pit upon earth.
  6. They are given authority to harm all men who do not have the seal of God on their foreheads.
  7. The locusts had tails like scorpions and stings in their tails.
  8. The locusts can not kill, only torment all men by stinging them with their tails.
  9. They are given authority to torment all men on earth for 5 months.
  10. All of mankind will wish they were dead, but death does not come.
  11. Abbadon, Apollyon (Satan) is the king of these locusts.

Sixth Trumpet: The Angels from the Euphrates

Revelation 9:13-21

13 Then the sixth angel sounded: And I heard a voice from the four horns of the golden altar which is before God, 14saying to the sixth angel who had the trumpet, “Release the four angels who are bound at the great river Euphrates.”15 So the four angels, who had been prepared for the hour and day and month and year, were released to kill a third of mankind. 16 Now the number of the army of the horsemen was two hundred million; I heard the number of them. 17 And thus I saw the horses in the vision: those who sat on them had breastplates of fiery red, hyacinth blue, and sulfur yellow; and the heads of the horses were like the heads of lions; and out of their mouths came fire, smoke, and brimstone. 18 By these three plagues a third of mankind was killed—by the fire and the smoke and the brimstone which came out of their mouths. 19 For their power is in their mouth and in their tails; for their tails are like serpents, having heads; and with them they do harm.
20 But the rest of mankind, who were not killed by these plagues, did not repent of the works of their hands, that they should not worship demons, and idols of gold, silver, brass, stone, and wood, which can neither see nor hear nor walk. 21And they did not repent of their murders or their sorceries or their sexual immorality or their thefts.

  1. Sixth Trumpet = Euphrates
  2. The SECOND woe
  3. 4 Angels released that were bound at the river Euphrates
  4. Sent to kill 1/3 of mankind.
  5. The army of the horsemen consisted of 2 hundred million soldiers.
  6. Fire, smoke, and brimstone came out of the horsemen’s mouths.
  7. Still mankind did not repent of worshiping demons, murdering, sorcery, sexual immorality, and thefts, etc.

Revelation 11:14

14 The second woe is past. Behold, the third woe is coming quickly.

 

Seventh Trumpet: The Kingdom Proclaimed

Revelation 10:7

7 but in the days of the sounding of the seventh angel, when he is about to sound, the mystery of God would be finished, as He declared to His servants the prophets.

Revelation 11:15-19

15 Then the seventh angel sounded: And there were loud voices in heaven, saying, “The kingdoms of this world have become the kingdoms of our Lord and of His Christ, and He shall reign forever and ever!” 16 And the twenty-four elders who sat before God on their thrones fell on their faces and worshiped God, 17 saying:

“ We give You thanks, O Lord God Almighty,
The One who is and who was and who is to come,
Because You have taken Your great power and reigned.
18 The nations were angry, and Your wrath has come,
And the time of the dead, that they should be judged,
And that You should reward Your servants the prophets and the saints,
And those who fear Your name, small and great,
And should destroy those who destroy the earth.”

19 Then the temple of God was opened in heaven, and the ark of His covenant was seen in His temple. And there were lightnings, noises, thunderings, an earthquake, and great hail.

  1. The Seventh Trumpet = Kingdom Proclaimed
  2. The THIRD woe
  3. Mystery of God is complete.
  4. Loud voices in heaven saying:  “The kingdoms of this world have become the kingdoms of our Lord and of His Christ, and He shall reign forever and ever.”
  5. Temple of God is opened in heaven.
  6. Ark of the covenant is seen in God’s temple.
  7. There is lightening, noises, thundering, an earthquake and great hail on earth.

The Seven Bowls

First Bowl: Loathsome Sores

Revelation 16:2

2 So the first went and poured out his bowl upon the earth, and a foul and loathsome sore came upon the men who had the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image

  1. The First Bowl = Sores
  2. Foul and Grievous sores form upon all those who take the Mark of the Beast and those who worship his image.

Second Bowl: The Sea Turns to Blood

Revelation 16:3

3 Then the second angel poured out his bowl on the sea, and it became blood as of a dead man; and every living creature in the sea died.

  1. The Second Bowl = Sea turns to blood
  2. Blood as of many dead men
  3. Every living creature in the sea dies

Third Bowl: The Waters Turn to Blood

Revelation 16:4

4 Then the third angel poured out his bowl on the rivers and springs of water, and they became blood.

  1. The Third Bowl = Water turns to Blood
  2. Rivers and springs of water turn to blood

Fourth Bowl: Men Are Scorched

Revelation 16:8-9

8 Then the fourth angel poured out his bowl on the sun, and power was given to him to scorch men with fire. 9 And men were scorched with great heat, and they blasphemed the name of God who has power over these plagues; and they did not repent and give Him glory.

  1. The Fourth Bowl = Great heat
  2. Heat of the sun scorches man like fire.
  3. Man blasphemes God and does not repent.

Fifth Bowl: Darkness and Pain

Revelation 16:10-11

10 Then the fifth angel poured out his bowl on the throne of the beast, and his kingdom became full of darkness; and they gnawed their tongues because of the pain. 11 They blasphemed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores, and did not repent of their deeds.

  1. The Fifth Bowl = Darkness and Pain.
  2. Darkness poured out on the seat of the beast.
  3. Kingdom of the Beast becomes full of darkness.
  4. Kingdom of the Beast suffers great pain.
  5. Mankind gnaws their tongues because of the pain and the sores.

Sixth Bowl: Euphrates Dried Up

Revelation 16:12

12 Then the sixth angel poured out his bowl on the great river Euphrates, and its water was dried up, so that the way of the kings from the east might be prepared.

  1. The Sixth Bowl = Euphrates river dries up.

Seventh Bowl: The Earth Utterly Shaken

Revelation 16:17-21

17 Then the seventh angel poured out his bowl into the air, and a loud voice came out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, “It is done!” 18 And there were noises and thundering and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such a mighty and great earthquake as had not occurred since men were on the earth. 19 Now the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell. And great Babylon was remembered before God, to give her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of His wrath. 20 Then every island fled away, and the mountains were not found. 21 And great hail from heaven fell upon men, each hail stoneabout the weight of a talent. Men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail, since that plague was exceedingly great.

  1. The Seventh Bowl = It is Done!
  2. Noises, thundering, lightening and a great earthquake.
  3. Jerusalem is divided into 3 parts.
  4. Cities of all other nations fall down.
  5. Islands and mountains disappear
  6. Great hail falls on mankind.
  7. Hail the weight of a talent.
  8. Men blasphemed God because the plague of hail is exceedingly terrible.

A Greek, or Attic talent, was 26 kilograms (57 lb), a Roman talent was 32.3 kilograms (71 lb), an Egyptian talent was 27 kilograms (60 lb), and a Babylonian talent was 30.3 kilograms (67 lb). Ancient Palestine adopted the Babylonian talent, but later revised the mass. The heavy common talent, used in New Testament times, was 58.9 kilograms (130 lb).

Source:  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talent_(measurement)

.

The Blessed Hope

Titus 2:11-1511 For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men, 12teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly in the present age, 13 looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ, 14 who gave Himself for us, that He might redeem us from every lawless deed and purify for Himself His own special people, zealous for good works.15 Speak these things, exhort, and rebuke with all authority. Let no one despise you.

1 Thessalonians 4:13-18

13 But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.
15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive andremain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.

Please go and read these wonderful articles on the rapture, especially the comments section as a lot of questions are answered there:

  1. The Pre-Tribulation Rapture (Part 1)
  2. The Pre-Tribulation Rapture (Part 2)
  3. The Rapture – An Article to Blow Your Hair Back!
  4. The Rapture – An Article to Knock Your Socks Off
  5. Twelve Reasons for the Rapture
pixel Seals, Trumpets, Bowls and The Blessed Hope

43 comments to Seals, Trumpets, Bowls and The Blessed Hope

  • Moemsie

    http://solasisters.blogspot.com/2010/09/why-is-rick-warren-quoting-universalist.html

    Oulike website van Sola Sistas.

    Dankie vir hierdie uiteensetting! dis tog wat met die dae van Noag en Lot bedoel word-dat God gewaarsku het en toe die wat getrou was gered het. Was net baie min siele toendertyd. Die Here is baie genadig-ons is in die Genade Tyd maar ook die waarskuwingstyd!

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Moemsie

    What’s this website got to do with the article? *confused* Ohhh ok… in future if you want to post articles from other peoples websites you can do so under Bobs Daily News –

  • Burning Lamp

    Thanks for posting this Debs – those who pooh-pooh a pretreb rapture must fail to grasp the gravity of what is to come. Their concept of the Tribulation must be akin to a disaster movie which does not even come close to portraying the pouring out of the wrath of a holy God (in addition to the persecution of the Antichrist.)

    One of Satan’s greatest ploys is to rob the Church of the Blessed Hope. It affects how we live our lives and even colors our doctrinal stance and our relationship with God.

    We must faithfully defend this precious doctrine from those who would trample upon it and attempt to undermine the peace that it provides.

    Thanks again for standing for truth!

    Maranatha! Even so come Lord Jesus! We are keeping our lamps burning in the darkness as we await our Bridegroom’s coming to take us safely home.

  • Thank you for making contact with me. I appreciate you and your ministry.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Hi Roger

    Thank you for replying to my emails. I really do appreciate it and your kind words came at a very poignant time in my life.

  • believer

    the secret rapure is a totally false teaching and has been accepted by all who would rather belive theory of man than the truth of Gods word, the secret rapture doctrine would never have came into your head just by reading the bible and without having to learn all the crazy theory that goes with it ! it was a false teaching thot up as part of the counter reformation by the catholic church to dispell the theory the reformers preached that the papacy was the beast system and the whole line of popes as antichrist, a catholic priest lacuntha under the false name of rabbi ben ezra wrote the 1st book containing the secret rapture theory and was read and took up by a scottish preacher called irvine. his work was read by john nelson darby who founded the brethern and took it to usa where it was preached at moody institute and picked up by scofield who wrote study bible to accompany the dispensationalist theory. the rest is as they say is history and most churches now belive this weird and fanciful tale that church will secretly disapear and the world left to suffer under 7yr or is it 3 and a half year of antichrist? most used passage for the secret rapture is 1 thess 4 ver 14 to 18 because it mentions that the lord shall decend and the dead shall rise and we that are left shall be caught up to meet him in the air, my problem with this txt and the secret rapture is that if u read it properly it says for the Lord himself shall desend WITH A SHOUT !!! with the VOICE OF THE ARCHANGEL !!! and with the TRUMP OF GOD !!! and the dead in CHRIST SHALL RISE FIRST !!! no can any dispensationalist please correct my obvious thinking that this moment will be anything but secret and quiet but with BE LOUD WITH A SHOUT AND A TRUMP AND THE VOICE OF THE ARCHANGEL !!!! sounds really quiet event eh? oh and nobody will notice 6,ooo years of believers who have just been raised from the dead come up from the ground??? come on read the txt literally oh and please read what the bible says and dont go rushing to see what scofield or moody or any other dispensationalist thinks !!! look forward to any answers !

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    believer …

    All your concerns in your comment have been answered in the rapture articles mentioned above.

  • Burning Lamp

    Believer, no need for rehashing here – just go read the article. Only those who know His voice will hear Him – and of course the world will notice people missing. Duh!

    Sounds like your problem is bigger than the Rapture question. You are obviously an antidispensationalist who is not willing to listen and learn from anyone who is, so please go away and have a happy life. If you are truly a believer, you WILL go in the Rapture and disappear along with the rest of the Body of Christ. Maybe you should evaluate the basis of your salvation, it it is according to the Bible. Or do you disagree with Moody on this as well?

  • Sharon

    A most excellent article about a most excellent Bridegroom coming for his Bride. Our most excellent Bridegroom is not a “Bride Abuser.” We, the saved will go to meet our most excellent Bridegroom in the air and then we will live in the most excellent heave that was prepared for us!

    While we will NOT go through the Great Tribulation (Praise God) we could very well go through a persecution.

    I do not understand the comment that a friend said to me…I don’t know if he comes before the trib or after, I just know he’s coming for us. That is sad. We rejoice in the FACT that Jesus is our BLESSED HOPE. What kind of hope do we have if we don’t take that verse literally? It is this hope that gives a most excellent comfort in Him.

    When the world around us is going crazy, we have this blessed hope. When you go through hard trials, we have this blessed hope. We I am in pain, I have this blessed hope. Any minute we could go from life to LIFE! That is a most excellent hope.

    When my dad and momma went home to live forever in the presence of Jesus, my dad said the day before he died…stay in your Bible for comfort. Daddy knew he was soon going home. Daddy knew that hope and comfort is in the Word of God.

    I BELIEVE WITH ALL MY STRENGTH WE ARE THE GENERATION IN WHICH JESUS WILL TAKE US OUT OF
    THIS PLACE! Every morning when I get up I think, today could be the day He comes for us. When I go to bed at night I think, He may wake me up and take me home.

    Whether by the under-taker or the up-ward taker…I’ll be home. Most Excellent!

    Titus 2:13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;

  • Sharon

    A great article Deb-ster. You’re the green right? Thanks for spreading more hope!

    Deborah (Discerning the World) wrote:

    believer …

    All your concerns in your comment have been answered in the rapture articles mentioned above.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Sharon

    Yip, I am the ostrich :) The one with the big beautiful eyes lol

  • Aaron

    I know people that are “survivalists”. They literally have supplies stored up in their garages to survive the days of the antichrist coming to take over. They don’t believe in the pre-trib position of the rapture. So there is one of many countless examples of how DOCTRINE affects PRACTICE.

    They believe they will meet the antichrist and he will take over and terrorize Christians before the rapture happens. Therefore, they are ready with preserved food, guns, tents, first aid supplies, and fishing equipment to be able to survive against the antichrist.

    But as you recited in Revelation, the seals/trumpets/bowls are virtually unsurvivable. No amount of supplies will win against all that. So they don’t believe the pre-trib position, but they don’t believe the Bible either. If they believed the Bible, then they’d realize that all the survivalist technique in the world has little chance of success.

    I am happy to know that my Jesus will have me out of here before the antichrist takes over.

  • Sharon

    LOL! At least I am not Blog Color Blind now. I’m such a goof-ball

    Deborah (Discerning the World) wrote:

    Sharon

    Yip, I am the ostrich :) The one with the big beautiful eyes lol

  • Dan

    believer wrote:

    the secret rapure is a totally false teaching and has been accepted by all who would rather belive theory of man than the truth of Gods word, the secret rapture doctrine would never have came into your head just by reading the bible and without having to learn all the crazy theory that goes with it ! it was a false teaching thot up as part of the counter reformation by the catholic church to dispell the theory the reformers preached that the papacy was the beast system and the whole line of popes as antichrist, a catholic priest lacuntha under the false name of rabbi ben ezra wrote the 1st book containing the secret rapture theory and was read and took up by a scottish preacher called irvine. his work was read by john nelson darby who founded the brethern and took it to usa where it was preached at moody institute and picked up by scofield who wrote study bible to accompany the dispensationalist theory. the rest is as they say is history and most churches now belive this weird and fanciful tale that church will secretly disapear and the world left to suffer under 7yr or is it 3 and a half year of antichrist? most used passage for the secret rapture is 1 thess 4 ver 14 to 18 because it mentions that the lord shall decend and the dead shall rise and we that are left shall be caught up to meet him in the air, my problem with this txt and the secret rapture is that if u read it properly it says for the Lord himself shall desend WITH A SHOUT !!! with the VOICE OF THE ARCHANGEL !!! and with the TRUMP OF GOD !!! and the dead in CHRIST SHALL RISE FIRST !!! no can any dispensationalist please correct my obvious thinking that this moment will be anything but secret and quiet but with BE LOUD WITH A SHOUT AND A TRUMP AND THE VOICE OF THE ARCHANGEL !!!! sounds really quiet event eh? oh and nobody will notice 6,ooo years of believers who have just been raised from the dead come up from the ground??? come on read the txt literally oh and please read what the bible says and dont go rushing to see what scofield or moody or any other dispensationalist thinks !!! look forward to any answers !

    Believer, you single Darby and Moody out as heretics. Please share with us who you view as sound Bible teachers?

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Aaron

    Funny enough I watched a video of a patiot christian who if you pay him will tell you how to stock up food supplies that the antichrist can’t take away from you. I thought, if this guy is such a sincere Christian first off he would not be charging money to give people such life saving information and second he has no clue about what the tribulation is really all about. I closed the video a 1/4 way through because I could not take hearing his marking message anymore. Oh it’s so sad that people do not TRUST Jesus, that they have no FAITH in HIM.
    You know, Noah trusted God for 100 years and built and ark in a time when it never rained ever. People mocked him as people mock us.

  • believer wrote:

    the secret rapure is a totally false teaching and has been accepted by all who would rather belive theory of man than the truth of Gods word, the secret rapture doctrine would never have came into your head just by reading the bible and without having to learn all the crazy theory that goes with it ! it was a false teaching thot up as part of the counter reformation by the catholic church to dispell the theory the reformers preached that the papacy was the beast system and the whole line of popes as antichrist, a catholic priest lacuntha under the false name of rabbi ben ezra wrote the 1st book containing the secret rapture theory and was read and took up by a scottish preacher called irvine. his work was read by john nelson darby who founded the brethern and took it to usa where it was preached at moody institute and picked up by scofield who wrote study bible to accompany the dispensationalist theory. the rest is as they say is history and most churches now belive this weird and fanciful tale that church will secretly disapear and the world left to suffer under 7yr or is it 3 and a half year of antichrist? most used passage for the secret rapture is 1 thess 4 ver 14 to 18 because it mentions that the lord shall decend and the dead shall rise and we that are left shall be caught up to meet him in the air, my problem with this txt and the secret rapture is that if u read it properly it says for the Lord himself shall desend WITH A SHOUT !!! with the VOICE OF THE ARCHANGEL !!! and with the TRUMP OF GOD !!! and the dead in CHRIST SHALL RISE FIRST !!! no can any dispensationalist please correct my obvious thinking that this moment will be anything but secret and quiet but with BE LOUD WITH A SHOUT AND A TRUMP AND THE VOICE OF THE ARCHANGEL !!!! sounds really quiet event eh? oh and nobody will notice 6,ooo years of believers who have just been raised from the dead come up from the ground??? come on read the txt literally oh and please read what the bible says and dont go rushing to see what scofield or moody or any other dispensationalist thinks !!! look forward to any answers !

    If the secret Rapture is a false doctrine then Jesus Christ is a false Messiah because Paul received the doctrines of Christianity (including the doctrine of a secret Rapture) directly from Jesus Christ. Paul says in 1 Corinthians 15:51 “Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,” The word for “mystery” is “musterion” and relates to something which had been unknown to man but is now revealed by God through his chosen vessel. Paul. Only God can reveal a “musterion” to man.

    Your following argument is at best completely fallacious, “[The] most used passage for the secret rapture is 1 thess 4 ver 14 to 18 because it mentions that the lord shall decend and the dead shall rise and we that are left shall be caught up to meet him in the air, my problem with this txt and the secret rapture is that if u read it properly it says for the Lord himself shall desend WITH A SHOUT !!! with the VOICE OF THE ARCHANGEL !!! and with the TRUMP OF GOD !!! and the dead in CHRIST SHALL RISE FIRST !!! no can any dispensationalist please correct my obvious thinking that this moment will be anything but secret and quiet but with BE LOUD WITH A SHOUT AND A TRUMP AND THE VOICE OF THE ARCHANGEL !!!! sounds really quiet event eh?” The fact that a shout and a trump accur at the Rapture is no argument against a secret Rapture.

    Unbelievers are not going to hear the shout and the trump because it is not meant for them. Only the believers will hear the shout and the trump. Indeed, Paul’s experience on his way to Damascus proves that God can withhold unbelievers from hearing his voice whilst others do in fact hear him: “And it came to pass, that, as I made my journey, and was come nigh unto Damascus about noon, suddenly there shone from heaven a great light round about me. And I fell unto the ground, and heard a voice saying unto me, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me? And I answered, Who art thou, Lord? And he said unto me, I am Jesus of Nazareth, whom thou persecutest. And they that were with me saw indeed the light, and were afraid; but they heard not the voice of him that spake to me. (Acts 22:6-9). God opened Paul’s ears to hear the voice of Jesus and at the same time closed the ears of the others who were with him so that they could not hear his voice. He is going to do the very same thing at the secret Rapture. He is going to close the ears of unbelievers so that they cannot hear his voice and the trump. In any case, even if the unbelievers were to hear the shout and the trump, it still would’t take away the secrecy of the Rapture because its secrecy lies mainly in the fact that no one knows when it is going to occur. Only God knows and as such it is a secret. Waky waky!!! As far as the 6000 years of believers being resurrected is concerned, the following. The dead aren’t going to come out of the ground like a bunch of zombies to roam the earth for everyone to see. Everything – the resurrection of the dead, the transformation of the living saints and their rapture (catching up) into the air – is going to happen within a nano-second (twinkling of the eye).

    The only thing I can say to you is: “Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God.”

  • Aaron wrote:

    I know people that are “survivalists”. They literally have supplies stored up in their garages to survive the days of the antichrist coming to take over. They don’t believe in the pre-trib position of the rapture. So there is one of many countless examples of how DOCTRINE affects PRACTICE.

    They believe they will meet the antichrist and he will take over and terrorize Christians before the rapture happens. Therefore, they are ready with preserved food, guns, tents, first aid supplies, and fishing equipment to be able to survive against the antichrist.

    But as you recited in Revelation, the seals/trumpets/bowls are virtually unsurvivable. No amount of supplies will win against all that. So they don’t believe the pre-trib position, but they don’t believe the Bible either. If they believed the Bible, then they’d realize that all the survivalist technique in the world has little chance of success.

    I am happy to know that my Jesus will have me out of here before the antichrist takes over.

    Perhaps we should tell these dudes who believe they have a chance to survive the onslaught of the Antichrist the following: “And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations. (Rev 13:7)

    How can you survive when God Himself gives you over to the Antichrist to slay you? They can store up as many things they want to in their garages. The irony is that only their garages and food supplies are going to survive because God has given them over to the Antichrist to kill them.

  • Dan

    Thomas Lessing (Watch and Pray / Waak en Bid) wrote:

    How can you survive when God Himself gives you over to the Antichrist to slay you? They can store up as many things they want to in their garages. The irony is that only their garages and food supplies are going to survive because God has given them over to the Antichrist to kill them.

    Thomas, what if some of these spirit filled Christians don’t believe in the pre-trib rapture because they have been deceived by the leaders of the churches they attend. Would Jesus do a thing like that and give you over to the anti-christ? When He comes, the Spirit will be removed from the earth right. So I take it He wouldn’t leave any Spirit filled behind. Only those that are filled with the Spirit belong to Him. Are you saying that it’s impossible for a Spirit filled Christian, to be deceived? I’m sorry I’m asking this because I do find it confusing sometimes as to who will be taken and who not. If I’m going through a tough time in my spiritual life right now, does it mean I’m not ready if He were to come today?

  • Robbie

    Thank you Debs!!!.

  • Thomas, what if some of these spirit filled Christians don’t believe in the pre-trib rapture because they have been deceived by the leaders of the churches they attend. Would Jesus do a thing like that and give you over to the anti-christ? When He comes, the Spirit will be removed from the earth right. So I take it He wouldn’t leave any Spirit filled behind. Only those that are filled with the Spirit belong to Him. Are you saying that it’s impossible for a Spirit filled Christian, to be deceived? I’m sorry I’m asking this because I do find it confusing sometimes as to who will be taken and who not. If I’m going through a tough time in my spiritual life right now, does it mean I’m not ready if He were to come today?

    You know Dan, not even a third grade kid would argue the way you do. Your “what if” little game is silly. Who said the Holy Spirit is going to be removed from the earth at the Rapture? Paul clearly says that the Holy Ghost’s restraining power is going to be removed. The Antichrist CANNOT be revealed and therefore the seven year tribulation period CANNOT begin not until the Restrainer is removed. “And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.” (2 Thessalonians 2:6-7). The saints are the salt and the light of the world by virtue of the Holy Spirit’s indwelling power. As such they are restraining and withholding the mystery of iniquity that is already at work to come to its full fruition and that will only happen when the Antichrist appears on the the scene.

    Your questions are so absolutely haphazardly chaotic that no one can make sense of them.

    Thomas, what if some of these spirit filled Christians don’t believe in the pre-trib rapture because they have been deceived by the leaders of the churches they attend. Would Jesus do a thing like that and give you over to the anti-christ?

    No, of course the saints who do not believe in a Pre-Trib Rapture are going to be given over to the Antichrist because they won’t be here. Do you really think that the saints who do not believe in a Pre-Trib Rapture will change God’s mind and rather have them Raptured in the middle or at the end of the seven year tribulation just because they do not believe what the Bible teaches? The saints who are going to be given over to the Antichrist will be the ones who are going to be saved during the tribulation. Kapisch?

    Are you saying that it’s impossible for a Spirit filled Christian, to be deceived?

    Of course it is possible for saints to be deceived. Why would Jesus warn them ” Take heed that no man deceive you” (Matthew 24:4) if it were impossible for them to be deceived. You seem to be a good example.

    I’m sorry I’m asking this because I do find it confusing sometimes as to who will be taken and who not. If I’m going through a tough time in my spiritual life right now, does it mean I’m not ready if He were to come today?

    Going through tough times is often God’s way to purify and sanctify you of any dross that may be clustering your spiritual life at the moment. Would He leave you behind when He Himself is allowing your tough times to sanctify you? (Philippians 1:6). I really don’t think so. The only difference between you and those who believe in the Pre-Trib Rapture is that you will call out in utter amazement “What … what’s happening to me? Where am I going? Where does my new body come from? This cannot be the Pre-Trib Rapture because I never believed in it and everything I disbelieved was automatically made null and void. My belief or disbelief in something makes it happen or not and not God who decided to make it happen.” Wake up, Danny boy.

  • Dan

    Thomas, if I offended you in any way I apologize sincerely. That was never my intent. It has always been my experience that this site stands for sound doctrine. About two to three years ago I found information here that led me to the Truth and as a result I am a born again Christian today. Not only that my Brother, I totally believe in the pre-trib rapture, I was never questioning that. If my questions came across as “absolutely haphazardly chaotic” it is only because I’m confused about what is meant and not because I don’t believe what the Bible teaches. Confusion stepped in when your comment gave me the impression that even if you are a Spirit filled Christian BUT you have been deceived into NOT believing in the pre – trib rapture, that you will be left behind BECAUSE you didn’t believe in the pre-trib rapture. I wasn’t attacking you in any way, I was trying to clear up my own misconceptions.
    I am a young Christian, in a world filled with churches who preach satanic doctrine, so I don’t go there anymore. Christian friends are few and far between because most of the ones I’ve encountered prefer books about things based on the Bible rather than the Bible itself. Thus this lamb is left to feed itself. THIS site, is the place where I come to when I have questions. I come here to learn and when you make comments like “not even a third grader would argue the way you do” or “your what if little game is silly” and “Wake up, Danny boy” – I find it not only disappointing but utterly disturbing. Love above anything else, or everything else is pointless. (1 Cor 13). Without love, everything you’re doing here with this site, would be pointless too. Please accept my apologies.

  • Well Dan, the wake up call and the call not to remain in a third milk absorbing grade and not to waffle in little “what if games,” still stands. If you find that offensive, then I apologize. Where and when did I say “that even if you are a Spirit filled Christian BUT you have been deceived into NOT believing in the pre – trib rapture, that you will be left behind BECAUSE you didn’t believe in the pre-trib rapture?” I never said or even suggested anything of the kind.

    As far as the “Wake up, Danny boy” is concerned: It may have been more appropriate to have said, “Wake up, Tommie boy and Danny boy” because that is what both of us need to do when we discuss matters as important as the Rapture. You need to remind me to stay awake and not fall asleep and I need to do the same with you. Alertness, vigilance, awareness, watchfulness, and preparedness are all attributes we need to foster when we discuss and wait for the Rapture. I am open to correction but then you must substantiate it with and from Scripture.

    Why, may I ask, do you believe in a Pre-Trib Rapture? Scripture and sound exposition please!

    Speaking of love. Would you say that Paul was speaking the truth in love when he said the following:

    But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed. (Gal 1:8-9)

    Of course, we may ask: Is the belief in a Rapture other than a Pre-Trib Rapture a false doctrine and does it warrant an anathema? Of course not but it does lead people astray.

    Speaking of love. Would you say that the following is love?

    These [false teachers] are wells without water, clouds that are carried with a tempest; to whom the mist of darkness is reserved for ever. For when they speak great swelling words of vanity, they allure through the lusts of the flesh, through much wantonness, those that were clean escaped from them who live in error. While they promise them liberty, they themselves are the servants of corruption: for of whom a man is overcome, of the same is he brought in bondage. For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning. For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them. But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire. (2 Pe 2:17-22)

    You really don’t need to think you offended me. This is not about personal aggrandizement or our own opinions. It is all about the truth as we find in in God’s Word. And whenever you need to exhort me, please do so with every scriptural weapon you’ve got because I see it as a necessity for my own growth in Christ Jesus. May I ask a favor of you? Whenever you have a question to ask, please don’t make it to look like a statement instead of a question. Not that I am allergic to statements; not at all but then the statements should always harmonize with Scripture.

    God bless
    Tom

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Hey Robbie! :)

  • Daphne

    Hi Dan,

    It is such a wonderful thing to hear you recently (so to speak) come to Christ! Knowing him makes life worth living! I was very blessed to have been taught about the Lord from a very young age. My daddy started teaching me from before I can remember, I guess? It seems I always knew who God was. My daddy didn’t teach me that I should read my Bible everyday but he did teach me to go to it in times of trouble and that I would find my answer. He told me that all I have to do is believe and God would show me the answer to anything, so no matter where I was in my spiritual life I would always turn to the Bible. I would just open it up and start reading and find my answer every time: ask, believe, and receive!!! Amen!!!

    Up until around the age of forty (now 47) I really didn’t know anything about the Bible in the way of prophecy or in the way of the history that makes it but through prayer, belief and study I have learned so many wonderful things! I know that when I ask God for an answer he will eventually give it to me. The key is to have plenty of questions for him to answer. When a question comes to mind, start looking for the answer; go where the spirit takes you and you will not only get the answer to your question you will learn so much in the process. Some of God’s children are on milk for years before they get teeth don’t get in a hurry and certainly don’t get discouraged; God does things in his own time. Always remember: patience is a key to all things.

    Rom. 15:4 For whatsoever things were written aforetime were written for our learning, that we through patience and comfort of the scriptures might have hope.

    Another thing my daddy taught me was that the “Truth” is the most important thing and there is only one real truth and I’m sorry to say the majority of the world doesn’t know it. In the big scheme of things there is right and wrong, good and evil, there is the way God intends it and there is the way he don’t. We are to be of one mind there should be no division in the body of Christ for any reason, sadly there are and the pre-trib rapture is one of them. There is only one truth and you must find it for yourself: I did. When the truth is concerned there is no need to force anything to fit, it will all fall into place on its own. In your study of the rapture forget everything you’ve been taught by man: absorb and accept the written word of God.

    When studying we are going to have to look at commentaries on occasion this is where we must put discernment in overdrive. Many twist the scripture to defend a particular view and the ones doing so usually attack the folks on the other side with remarks that are demeaning, judgmental, and downright simpleminded. If you see such behavior I suggest you don’t pay attention to anything that person says. Clearly they don’t portray the Spirit of Jesus.

    May God bless you with much knowledge concerning his word!

  • harry

    The rapture theory was invented by a British preacher in 1830
    by the name of John Darby, founder of the Palymouth Brethren Church.
    This formed part of want they called dispensationalism.
    Messiah never mentioned that there will be a pre- tribulation rapture.
    Messiah said that immediately after the tribulation of those
    days the sun shall be darkened and the moon become as blood
    and the stars will fall from the heavens then shall appear the
    signs of the son of man and he will gather his people unto him.
    Matthew 24:29
    Mark 13:24 – 27
    “But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be
    darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,
    And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in
    heaven shall be shaken
    And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds
    with great power and glory.
    And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his
    elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth
    to the uttermost part of heaven.
    Verse 31 Heaven and earth shall pass away but my words shall
    not pass away
    1 Corinthians 15:22
    For in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
    But every man in his own order: Christ the first fruits;
    afterward they that are Christ’s at his coming.
    Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the
    kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down
    all rule and all authority and power.
    1 Corinthians 15:51
    Behold I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we
    shall be changed
    In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for
    the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised
    incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
    1 Thessalonians 4: 15
    For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we
    which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall
    not prevent them which are asleep
    For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with the shout
    of the archangel, and with the trump of God; and the dead in
    Christ shall rise first:
    Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up
    together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the
    air; and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
    Matthew 24:22 And except those days should be
    shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect’s sake
    those days shall be shortened.
    Revelation 7:14
    And I said unto him, sir, thou knowest, And he said to me. These
    are they which come out of great tribulation, and have washed
    their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
    Jesus’ words are clear immediately after the tribulation he will
    send his angels to gather his elect.
    It is because of the lies that is coming from the pulpit that many
    people believe that they will be whisked away from the earth
    even before the tribulation starts.
    Isaiah 30:9-11
    That this is a rebellious people, lying children, children that will not
    hear the law of the LORD:
    Which say to the seers, See not; and to the prophets, Prophecy
    not unto us right things, speak unto us smooth things, prophecy
    deceits: Get you out of the way, turn aside out of the path, cause the
    Holy One of Israel to cease from before us

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Dan / Daphne

    >> Daphne says “In your study of the rapture forget everything you’ve been taught by man: absorb and accept the written word of God.”

    When I was born again, I had never heard of this thing called the rapture, and it was only when I was studying the scriptures on my own did I find this out by myself – no one told me about it. I took a keen interested in studying what was going to happen during the tribulation and what was going to happen to me. It was as clear as daylight to me that the something was going to happen to the church, that we were going to be removed. And the more I studied this topic the more the Holy Spirit revealed to me this rapture of the church and I was filled with such joy.

    Now you Daphne are a joy destoryer, you come here and you try take away THE BLESSED HOPE that Christian have in Jesus Christ, the FAITH that Christians have in Jesus Christ.

    Stop it. Go elsewhere please and spread your false message there.

  • Harry wrote:

    The rapture theory was invented by a British preacher in 1830 by the name of John Darby, founder of the Palymouth Brethren Church. This formed part of want they called dispensationalism. Messiah never mentioned that there will be a pre- tribulation rapture. Messiah said that immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun shall be darkened and the moon become as blood and the stars will fall from the heavens then shall appear the signs of the son of man and he will gather his people unto him.

    Harry, do you ever read your Bible? Paul was the very first person to reveal the Rapture as a “musterion” and NOT John Darby. “Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. (1 Co 15:50-53). This, my dear friend, is going to happen prior to the seven years tribulations. But, of course, you believe that it is going to happen after the Great Tribulation when believers and unbelievers are going to be judged at the same time. Well, if that were true then also the unbelievers are going to be raised incorruptible and their corruptible must put on incorruption. Nowhere in the entire section does Paul refer to unbelievers. Only believers will receive an incorruptible body unto the one like that of Jesus and this will happen at the Rapture prior to the seven year tribulation.

    Let’s get back to the word “musterion.” If Paul was referring to the gathering of his people unto Jesus Christ at the end of the Great Tribulation then the gathering of Israel as a nation to her own land would always have been a mystery. No one would ever have known of it until Paul had revealed it to them in 1 Corinthians 15. Surprise, surprise, the Old Testament is replete with God’s promises to regather his people from the four corners of the world and bring them back to their own divinely allotted land. So, it proves beyond any doubt that Paul could never have referred to the gathering of his people unto Himself as being the mystery (“musterion”). Your problem is that you believe the word “people” refers to all the saints (and if you are a Calvinists that it only refers to the elect). The “people” and “his elect” refer to Israel and NOT the so-called blue-eyed, Aryan race of Calvinistic elect weirdos.

    Another one of your biggest problems is that you confuse the passages that relate to Christ’s Second Coming with the passages relating to the Pre-Trib Rapture. There is a vast difference between the two. There are at least eleven major differences of which the following is one of the most important. At the Rapture Jesus is going to meet all the saints in the air and immediately take them to his Father’s house where the Bema throne judgment and the consummation of the marriage is going to take place. (1 Thessalonians 4: 17). At his Second Advent, He is going to return with his Bride to the earth to judge the nations and to establish his Millennial Kingdom on earth (Zechariah 14: 4-21).

    I am sure that you will agree that Isaiah 30:9-11 fits you and your anti Pre-Trib rapturists like a glove. The Post-Trib Rapture is a myth.

    Harry wrote:

    Messiah never mentioned that there will be a pre- tribulation rapture.

    Of course the Messiah never mentioned a Pre-Trib rapture because it was the will of the Father to reveal the MYSTERY of a Pre-Trib Rapture through Paul and not his Son, Jesus Christ. And yet Jesus made a very strong allusion to a Pre-Trib Rapture in John 14: “Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me. In my Father’s house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.” (John 14:1-3)

  • Daphne wrote

    In your study of the rapture forget everything you’ve been taught by man: absorb and accept the written word of God.

    When studying we are going to have to look at commentaries on occasion this is where we must put discernment in overdrive. Many twist the scripture to defend a particular view and the ones doing so usually attack the folks on the other side with remarks that are demeaning, judgmental, and downright simpleminded. If you see such behavior I suggest you don’t pay attention to anything that person says. Clearly they don’t portray the Spirit of Jesus.

    May God bless you with much knowledge concerning his word!

    You are doing the very opposite to what Paul intended his readers to experience when he encouraged them to look forward to the return of Jesus at the Pre-Trib Rapture. Listen to this:

    Wherefore comfort one another with these words. (1 Thess 4:18)

    Wherefore comfort yourselves together, and edify one another, even as also ye do. ((1 Thess 5:11)

    What were the words Paul was talking about? Well, if you read the written word and accept it, as you say we must, then you must accept that he was talking about the Pre-Trib Rapture which you abhor with every fiber of your being.

    You are not comforting Dan. You are misleading him into an abyss of despondency and unbelief with regards to the Rapture.

    May I remind you that Dan believes in the Pre-Trib Rapture? Here are his own words:

    Not only that my Brother, I totally believe in the pre-trib rapture, I was never questioning that.

    So, what’s your point???

  • Hi Deborah,

    You said: “When I was born again, I had never heard of this thing called the rapture, and it was only when I was studying the scriptures on my own did I find this out by myself – no one told me about it. I took a keen interested in studying what was going to happen during the tribulation and what was going to happen to me. It was as clear as daylight to me that the something was going to happen to the church that we were going to be removed. And the more I studied this topic the more the Holy Spirit revealed to me this rapture of the church and I was filled with such joy.

    Uh huh, Are you disagreeing or agreeing?”

    “Now you Daphne are a joy destroyer, you come here and you try take away THE BLESSED HOPE that Christian have in Jesus Christ, the FAITH that Christians have in Jesus Christ.”

    That’s Mrs. Joy Destroyer to you (lol). You are so right! The very first thing I think of when I wake up is how I can take a pre-tribbers blessed hope away from them. I am so angry with pre-trib believers and I hate them because they have the blessed hope and I don’t. All they want to do is take away my right to have my head cut off: I want to be a “tribulation saint” and I aint’ gonna have it any other way (stomping feet)!!! Them pre-tribbers want to ruin all my fun! And while I’m spilling my guts about my character if you can think of a label like Calvinist or Catholic, etc I’m all them too.

    Now that, that’s out of the way, do you know what destroys my joy? It is knowing that you and other people actually think that way; that there is no hope or faith without the pre-trib rapture. “Well what kind of hope is there if we aren’t raptured up before the worst time in history starts?” Hummmm I don’t know… let’s see… Maybe ya’ll should start by asking all those Christians being killed every day in Egypt, Syria, and elsewhere. If none of them can tell you then maybe all those millions of people who have lost family members, homes, and jobs because of tornadoes, floods, fires, and earthquakes in the past few years can. There is no end to the people who are living through tribulations right now and there are more added to the list every day: where is their rapture?

    Ya’ll say the tribulation period is the worst in history and I agree but seriously do you think it can get any worse for all those people, especially those Christians that are being killed: burned in their churches, heads cut off, watching their children be killed, etc.?

    Oh well, it’s a good thing we are better than those Christians, and we are going to be raptured before that happens to us: yea!

    I hope you are getting my point.

    You said: “Stop it. Go elsewhere please and spread your false message there.”

    Exactly what did I say to Dan that was untrue? I told him to study the Bible and learn for himself about the rapture. Did I say the pre-trib rapture? No, I simply said rapture and last I heard there were several different views. So the opposition I have received over that statement is unwarranted.

    Which by the way you still haven’t answered the question about the Christians suffering the wrath (punishment) of God in the tribulation (trials) period.

    Many blessings!!!

  • Hi Thomas,

    You said: “What were the words Paul was talking about? Well, if you read the written word and accept it, as you say we must, then you must accept that he was talking about the Pre-Trib Rapture which you abhor with every fiber of your being.”

    How do you know what my fibers abhor? lol

    You make it sound like reading the word and accepting it is a bad thing?

    No I don’t have to accept Paul was talking about the pre-trib rapture. The way I see it, he was talking about the resurrection of those who died in him and that when he returns to the earth he will bring them with him and after that we will be changed.

    1 Th. 4:13-14 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep that ye sorrow not even as others which have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

    1 Th. 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive (breathing) and remain (have survived) unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

    Isn’t it true in the pre-trib world that when Jesus comes for the rapture he comes on the clouds and doesn’t come down to earth? If that is true then you folks should quit using 1 Th. 4:16 as a reference.

    1 Th. 4:16 For the Lord himself shall DESCEND FROM heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first.

    Please note in this passage that Jesus is not in a cloud but descending (COMING DOWN) from heaven.

    Descend: G2597 katabaino; the place which one has come down from, OF CELESTIAL BEINGS COMING DOWN TO EARTH, to be cast down of things, from the upper regions of the air.

    Heaven: G3772 ouranos: the vaulted expanse of the sky with all things visible in it (G3772: ouranos)

    http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G2597&t=KJV
    http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G3772&t=KJV

    You said: “You are not comforting Dan. You are misleading him into an abyss of despondency and unbelief with regards to the Rapture.”

    Do you think you could be a bit more dramatic? lol

    Many blessings!!!

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Daphne

    >> that there is no hope or faith without the pre-trib rapture. “Well what kind of hope is there if we aren’t raptured up before the worst time in history starts?”

    Don’t be absurd. Now you are talking nonsense. Then it starts my dear and I still wait Jesus Christ. This argument that people are going to lose their faith because He does not come is a load of nonsense.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Daphne

    Descending from heaving and coming in the clouds surely is pretty much the same thing. That verse does not say He comes down to earth.

    What’s your point?

  • Sharon

    Bologna or Baloney You need to get into your Bible and stop listening to who ever is teaching your these lies.

    harry wrote:

    The rapture theory was invented by a British preacher in 1830
    by the name of John Darby, founder of the Palymouth Brethren Church.
    This formed part of want they called dispensationalism.
    Messiah never mentioned that there will be a pre- tribulation rapture.
    Messiah said that immediately after the tribulation of those
    days the sun shall be darkened and the moon become as blood
    and the stars will fall from the heavens then shall appear the
    signs of the son of man and he will gather his people unto him.
    Matthew 24:29
    Mark 13:24 – 27
    “But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be
    darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,
    And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in
    heaven shall be shaken
    And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds
    with great power and glory.
    And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his
    elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth
    to the uttermost part of heaven.
    Verse 31 Heaven and earth shall pass away but my words shall
    not pass away
    1 Corinthians 15:22
    For in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
    But every man in his own order: Christ the first fruits;
    afterward they that are Christ’s at his coming.
    Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the
    kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down
    all rule and all authority and power.
    1 Corinthians 15:51
    Behold I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we
    shall be changed
    In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for
    the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised
    incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
    1 Thessalonians 4: 15
    For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we
    which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall
    not prevent them which are asleep
    For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with the shout
    of the archangel, and with the trump of God; and the dead in
    Christ shall rise first:
    Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up
    together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the
    air; and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
    Matthew 24:22 And except those days should be
    shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect’s sake
    those days shall be shortened.
    Revelation 7:14
    And I said unto him, sir, thou knowest, And he said to me. These
    are they which come out of great tribulation, and have washed
    their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
    Jesus’ words are clear immediately after the tribulation he will
    send his angels to gather his elect.
    It is because of the lies that is coming from the pulpit that many
    people believe that they will be whisked away from the earth
    even before the tribulation starts.
    Isaiah 30:9-11
    That this is a rebellious people, lying children, children that will not
    hear the law of the LORD:
    Which say to the seers, See not; and to the prophets, Prophecy
    not unto us right things, speak unto us smooth things, prophecy
    deceits: Get you out of the way, turn aside out of the path, cause the
    Holy One of Israel to cease from before us

  • Daphne

    Misleading others is not only dramatic but dramatically dangerous.

    Daphne wrote:

    Isn’t it true in the pre-trib world that when Jesus comes for the rapture he comes on the clouds and doesn’t come down to earth? If that is true then you folks should quit using 1 Th. 4:16 as a reference.

    1 Th. 4:16 For the Lord himself shall DESCEND FROM heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first.

    Please note in this passage that Jesus is not in a cloud but descending (COMING DOWN) from heaven.

    Since when does “descend down from heaven” in verse 16 unequivocally prove that He is coming down to earth? Yes, He will descend down from heaven to meet the risen saints and the saints who are going to be changed in the twinkling of an eye in the air. Isn’t that what verse 17 tells you? “Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them (the risen dead in Christ) in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air; and so shall we ever be with the Lord.” The Pre-Trib Rapture is not just about the deceased in Christ who return with Him when He descends from heaven. Its main purpose is for the saints (the already deceased in Christ and those who remain alive)to receive their resurrected bodies unto the one like that of Jesus and to meet Him in the air in their resurrected bodies. This is precisely the mystery Paul was revealing to the church for the very first time.

    Your argument surrounding 1 Thess 4:16 is wrong to say the least.

    You say you believe that saints are going to go through the tribulation? Don’t you trust God and his promises?

    “Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.” The word “from” does not denote a protection within or in the temptations. The word denotes a complete protection by a complete removal from without the zone of temptations to a safe place or haven.

  • Hi Thomas and Deborah,

    I apologize for just getting back to ya’ll.

    Deborah said: “Don’t be absurd. Now you are talking nonsense. Then it starts my dear and I still wait Jesus Christ. This argument that people are going to lose their faith because He does not come is a load of nonsense.”

    I didn’t say that. And if I did: how is it nonsense? I have heard several people say that if they are not raptured up they don’t need a God who would let them suffer. Does that sound like nonsense to you? It doesn’t to me; it hurts my heart! Jesus says many times that for his name sake we will suffer as he did.

    I see you didn’t get my point on the other comment so I’ll put it this way: what makes one Christian better than the other so that one has to endure the tribulation/wrath of God (as ya’ll put it) and others don’t? Why are those Christians being killed and I can have hope that I won’t? Think about this: what if some of those people who live in (let’s say) Egypt (where over 40 churches have been burned in the last couple of days) read about the pre-trib rapture and just yesterday their neighbor was killed do you think they will believe in a pre-trib/pre-persecution rapture?

    Thomas said: “Misleading others is not only dramatic but dramatically dangerous.”

    I know it is. It is how you said it I found dramatic/theatrical “leading him into the abyss of despondency and unbelief over the rapture”. Again this is to say that if someone doesn’t believe in the pre-trib they lose their faith and drift into unbelief.

    You Said: “You say you believe that saints are going to go through the tribulation? Don’t you trust God and his promises?”

    “Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.”

    “The word “from” does not denote a protection within or in the temptations. The word denotes a complete protection by a complete removal from without the zone of temptations to a safe place or haven.”

    Unlike you I don’t look at the word “from’ I look at the word “temptation” and it means test of integrity, virtue, fidelity, constancy which in no way parallels the words wrath or tribulation. Tribulation means distress, pressure, affliction, persecution and wrath means anger exhibited in punishment. Temptations are not punishment of God and they are certainly not tribulations. So Revelation 3:10 is not a promise to keep one from tribulations but from temptations/trials i.e. the testing of their faith.

    I sure do believe in the promises of God! I believe each and every one that is why I am not about to limit my rewards to the one promise of being kept from temptation; I want all the promises that were made to the churches. When the pre-tribbers say they are the Church of Philadelphia and do not include themselves with the other churches they are cutting themselves short.

    The seven churches don’t represent different periods of time they represent the church as a whole in times past and now. How do I know that? The first clue is when Jesus says to John: “I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, what thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven CHURCHES which are in Asia… We as the church as a whole have received the Revelation from those seven churches. As you are probably aware the seven churches John wrote to were Gentile churches for the most part and existed when he wrote it; he probably hand delivered a copy to each church. The only difference in the total message of the Book of Revelation concerning the churches was a short piece addressed to each of them some exhibited reprimand and some recognition for good.

    Two churches were found without fault: Smyrna and Philadelphia the rest Jesus found fault with. Those of Smyrna (even without fault toward God) would be thrown into prison by the devil for ten days and would more than likely die in prison while the church of Philadelphia was told they would be kept from the hour of temptation that would come upon the whole earth. Nevertheless at the end of each letter addressed to a particular church these words were spoken: He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; to him that overcometh will I give… In other words it is for us (those of the church) to understand that this letter is for all who love Christ and that it is given to the church as a whole.

    What does it mean to be an overcomer? Simply stated it means that we hold onto our faith and endure until death no matter what trials we may face or by what manner we died: 1 John 5:4—For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith; James 1:12—Blessed is the man that endures temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him.

    The whole book of Revelation was written to the whole church and we know this by what John writes in chapter one.

    Picture this: It’s a nice spring day in the late part of the first century and we are sitting in the church of Ephesus (Greek/Gentile community) and an elder of the church is reading a letter we had received years before from Paul the apostle of the Gentiles. And then John the only living Apostle arrives with a letter he said is for the servants of Jesus (Rev. 1:1): all who love him (Christians). John decides to read the book to us before he leaves just in case we have any questions. We all agree and with one of seven copies he walks up to the podium and begins to speak:

    “To the seven churches which are in Asia: Grace be unto you, and peace, from him which is, and which was, and which is to come; and from the seven Spirits which are before his throne; And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood, and hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion forever and ever. Amen.”

    I’ve never had something so beautiful read to me have you? It’s a good day to be a Christian! John has confirmed our salvation by the blood of Jesus and told us that because his blood washed us from our sins we are made kings and priests unto God and his Father. I have not heard anything particularly pertaining to Jews so far. Clearly John is talking to us Christians no matter where or when we were born. We are those in the church. In the very beginning John starts off by saying To All seven churches; this tells us the content of the book is for all the churches as a whole.

    Theologians’ divide the churches into dispensations saying that each represents a particular time in the history of the church. The church that is said to be for today’s Christians is the church of Philadelphia but if it is truly a case of the churches being different dispensations then the church of today would be Laodicea because we are truly living in the last days of the church era before the millennium and clearly there is many sitting on the fence these days. Most (not all) of the people who believe and teach the churches are different periods of time in history hold to the pre-trib rapture point of view. The church of Philadelphia is chosen to enforce this theology because of one promise made by Jesus to keep the church from the hour of temptation. The problem with that is when they consider themselves this church and claim no part of the other churches they are ignoring all the other promises Jesus gives the church.

    Let’s consider for a moment the number seven. The number seven is used many times in God’s Word: we are told to rest on the seventh day at the completion of a week; God told the Jews to let the land rest on the seventh year at the completion of a week of years and God told them there were to be seven times seven years to complete a cycle before the Jubilee and I could go on. What does all that mean? When God uses the number seven it is a symbol of completeness; in particular it is a symbol of spiritual completeness. With that in mind it can be asserted that when God told John to write to the seven churches He was actually telling John to write to the church as a whole.

    I look forward to your reply!
    Many blessings to you!!!

  • Sharon

    Any thing that a Christian is facing today is NOTHING compared to what Tribulation Saints will go through. While the Bible clearly teaches a Pre-Tribulation catching away of the saint/rapture, no where does scripture say that Christians won’t go through great PERSECUTION. I have read of many of the atrocities that Christians around the world are going through. As terrible as that is, it is a picnic compared to what it will be like during the Great Tribulation.

    Why would anyone want to believe that Jesus Christ will abuse His Bride before she comes to heaven? Why would any one believe that we will go through God’s WRATH. The WRATH of God is His judgment upon the world not on His kids.

    Since the rapture and the second coming of Christ are not the same, if the rapture is at the end of the Great Trib then when is His second coming. How can they be happening at the same time? No, No, No. While the great trib goes on here below, we the saved will stand before the Judgment Seat of Christ and give an account of our lives lived for Him. This is also when the Marriage Supper of the Lamb takes place. Then we along with our Savior get to do some awesome horse-back riding down here and will watch Him defeat once and for all satan and all that pertains to him.

    So all I can do is suggest that those of you who don’t believe in the Blessed Hope pray and ask Jesus to let you stay down here while all hell breaks out on earth.
    Wouldn’t it be something if he answered that prayer in the affirmative? Don’t take the Mark of Beast while you stay here.

    Daphne wrote:

    Hi Deborah,

    You said: “When I was born again, I had never heard of this thing called the rapture, and it was only when I was studying the scriptures on my own did I find this out by myself – no one told me about it. I took a keen interested in studying what was going to happen during the tribulation and what was going to happen to me. It was as clear as daylight to me that the something was going to happen to the church that we were going to be removed. And the more I studied this topic the more the Holy Spirit revealed to me this rapture of the church and I was filled with such joy.

    Uh huh, Are you disagreeing or agreeing?”

    “Now you Daphne are a joy destroyer, you come here and you try take away THE BLESSED HOPE that Christian have in Jesus Christ, the FAITH that Christians have in Jesus Christ.”

    That’s Mrs. Joy Destroyer to you (lol). You are so right! The very first thing I think of when I wake up is how I can take a pre-tribbers blessed hope away from them. I am so angry with pre-trib believers and I hate them because they have the blessed hope and I don’t. All they want to do is take away my right to have my head cut off: I want to be a “tribulation saint” and I aint’ gonna have it any other way (stomping feet)!!! Them pre-tribbers want to ruin all my fun! And while I’m spilling my guts about my character if you can think of a label like Calvinist or Catholic, etc I’m all them too.

    Now that, that’s out of the way, do you know what destroys my joy? It is knowing that you and other people actually think that way; that there is no hope or faith without the pre-trib rapture. “Well what kind of hope is there if we aren’t raptured up before the worst time in history starts?” Hummmm I don’t know… let’s see… Maybe ya’ll should start by asking all those Christians being killed every day in Egypt, Syria, and elsewhere. If none of them can tell you then maybe all those millions of people who have lost family members, homes, and jobs because of tornadoes, floods, fires, and earthquakes in the past few years can. There is no end to the people who are living through tribulations right now and there are more added to the list every day: where is their rapture?

    Ya’ll say the tribulation period is the worst in history and I agree but seriously do you think it can get any worse for all those people, especially those Christians that are being killed: burned in their churches, heads cut off, watching their children be killed, etc.?

    Oh well, it’s a good thing we are better than those Christians, and we are going to be raptured before that happens to us: yea!

    I hope you are getting my point.

    You said: “Stop it. Go elsewhere please and spread your false message there.”

    Exactly what did I say to Dan that was untrue? I told him to study the Bible and learn for himself about the rapture. Did I say the pre-trib rapture? No, I simply said rapture and last I heard there were several different views. So the opposition I have received over that statement is unwarranted.

    Which by the way you still haven’t answered the question about the Christians suffering the wrath (punishment) of God in the tribulation (trials) period.

    Many blessings!!!

  • Daphne wrote:

    Unlike you I don’t look at the word “from’ I look at the word “temptation” and it means test of integrity, virtue, fidelity, constancy which in no way parallels the words wrath or tribulation. Tribulation means distress, pressure, affliction, persecution and wrath means anger exhibited in punishment. Temptations are not punishment of God and they are certainly not tribulations. So Revelation 3:10 is not a promise to keep one from tribulations but from temptations/trials i.e. the testing of their faith.

    God never promised that He would keep the saints free from temptations/trials i.e. the testing of their faith. In fact, temptations, trials and the testing of the saints’ faith are all an indispensable part of a saint’s walk with God. Surely you must have read Jesus’ words in Matthew 5:11 “Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake.” and Luke 6:22 “Blessed are ye, when men shall hate you, and when they shall separate you from their company, and shall reproach you, and cast out your name as evil, for the Son of man’s sake” and Peter’s words in 1 Peter 3:14 “But and if ye suffer for righteousness’ sake, happy are ye: and be not afraid of their terror, neither be troubled.” Why would God change his mind and keep his saints from temptations/trials and the testing of their faith in Revelation 3:10 when Jesus pronounces a blessing on the saints when they suffer and are persecuted on his behalf?

    You say you don’t look at the word “from” but rather at the word “temptation.” That’s your whole problem. You cannot single out certain words and then come to the conclusion that Revelation 3:10 is not about tribulation but only the temptations/trials and the testing of the saints’ faith, and that God promised to keep them safe from those things. It does not say that the temptation will come upon the saints but on the entire world of unbelievers. As such we cannot possibly interpret temptation here as merely a testing of the faith because unbelievers have no faith to be tested. Therefore the “temptation” cannot refer to anything else but tribulation, wrath, and judgement. Furthermore, we are told that this temptation that is coming on the entire world of unbelievers is an “hour of temptation.” Therefore, it refers to a specific time in the history of mankind that has never occurred before or will ever happen again in the future; it is limited and allotted to that specific hour (time) only. And this ties in perfectly with Jesus’ words in Matthew 24 about the tribulation: “For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.” (Matthew 24:21)

    Daphne wrote:

    Let’s consider for a moment the number seven. The number seven is used many times in God’s Word: we are told to rest on the seventh day at the completion of a week; God told the Jews to let the land rest on the seventh year at the completion of a week of years and God told them there were to be seven times seven years to complete a cycle before the Jubilee and I could go on. What does all that mean? When God uses the number seven it is a symbol of completeness; in particular it is a symbol of spiritual completeness. With that in mind it can be asserted that when God told John to write to the seven churches He was actually telling John to write to the church as a whole.

    So what you’re actually saying is that when individual churches were reprimanded and judged for their particular sins, God judged the whole church. “OK Ephesus, because you left your first love I am not only going to judge you for that sin but also the church at Smyrna because they remained faithful to me and my word in even the most hazardous circumstances.” Is that what God did – judge the church as a whole because He told John to write to the church as a whole and not to the individual seven churches? You must be kidding.

    I really think you are deceived and need to repent of your deception.

  • Hi Sharon,

    You Said: “While the Bible clearly teaches a Pre-Tribulation catching away of the saint/rapture, nowhere does scripture say that Christians won’t go through great PERSECUTION.”

    Contradicting yourself are you? I thought that was the whole premise of the pre-trib rapture: Christians won’t suffer persecution in the tribulation period.

    And if the Bible so CLEARLY teaches the pre-trib rapture then why do you think there is so much disagreement on the subject?

    You Said: “Anything that a Christian is facing today is NOTHING compared to what Tribulation Saints will go through. As terrible as that is, it is a picnic compared to what it will be like during the Great Tribulation.”

    Really? Could you please explain how it can get any worse than watching your children and spouse be tortured and killed, and then being tortured and killed yourself?

    You Said: “Why would anyone want to believe that Jesus Christ will abuse His Bride before she comes to heaven? Why would anyone believe that we will go through God’s WRATH. The WRATH of God is His judgment upon the world not on His kids.”

    What you need to be asking yourself is: why would someone stop believing in the pre-trib rapture: It is a wonderful thought! And please don’t think it is because they listen to false teachers because I don’t do that; I study for myself.

    All the persecution that is to happen through the tribulation is done by the devil and his buddies: the Antichrist and the False Prophet not by Jesus. It will be the Antichrist that kills because people don’t except the mark. Why is that so hard for people to understand? Why do they insist that the tribulation is the same as the punishment of God? Christians are not to endure the punishment of God but they are told many times that they will endure tribulations and those tribulations may include death by the enemy for his name’s sake.

    Rev. 2:10 Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death and I will give thee a crown of life.

    You Said: “Since the rapture and the second coming of Christ are not the same, if the rapture is at the end of the Great Trib then when is His second coming. How can they be happening at the same time? No, No, No. While the great trib goes on here below, we the saved will stand before the Judgment Seat of Christ and give an account of our lives lived for Him. This is also when the Marriage Supper of the Lamb takes place. Then we along with our Savior get to do some awesome horse-back riding down here and will watch Him defeat once and for all Satan and all that pertains to him.”

    Please answer me this: why aren’t the “tribulation saints” invited to the marriage supper? Those people will die for Jesus why would they not be there? And when does their resurrection happen or are they left out of that too? Also, one more thing: if Christians aren’t to suffer the wrath of God and the wrath of God is the tribulation then wouldn’t those Christians killed in that time be suffering the wrath of God?

    You Said: “So all I can do is suggest that those of you who don’t believe in the Blessed Hope pray and ask Jesus to let you stay down here while all hell breaks out on earth.
    Wouldn’t it be something if he answered that prayer in the affirmative? Don’t take the Mark of Beast while you stay here.”

    Not holding the pre-trib point of view does not mean someone doesn’t believe in the Blessed Hope. The Blessed Hope is the Resurrection not the rapture. Jesus didn’t die so that you and I would be saved from getting our heads cut off; he died so that we would have eternal life with him; that my friend is the true Blessed Hope.

    1 Cor. 15:13 But it there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen: and if Christ be not risen then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain.

    Many Blessing!!!

    PS. Thomas I’m still working on my reply to you.

  • Daphne wrote:

    You Said: “While the Bible clearly teaches a Pre-Tribulation catching away of the saint/rapture, nowhere does scripture say that Christians won’t go through great PERSECUTION.”

    Contradicting yourself are you? I thought that was the whole premise of the pre-trib rapture: Christians won’t suffer persecution in the tribulation period.

    Sharon is not contradicting herself. She refers to the saints who presently make up the church (body of Christ) who are going to be taken up to meet the Lord in the air at the Pre-Trib Rapture. These saints are not going to go through the seven years tribulation period on earth. Surely you must know that many of the unbelievers among the Jews and the Gentiles who remain behind are going to be saved during the seven years tribulation? (Rev 7:13-14).

    Daphne wrote:

    And if the Bible so CLEARLY teaches the pre-trib rapture then why do you think there is so much disagreement on the subject?

    A silly question like this deserves to be ignored. Many churches do not agree on how to be saved whilst the Scriptures CLEARLY teach how sinners ought to be saved. The fact that there is not always agreement among Christians and professing Christians does not prove that something does not appear in the Bible.

    Daphne wrote:

    You Said: “Anything that a Christian is facing today is NOTHING compared to what Tribulation Saints will go through. As terrible as that is, it is a picnic compared to what it will be like during the Great Tribulation.”

    Really? Could you please explain how it can get any worse than watching your children and spouse be tortured and killed, and then being tortured and killed yourself?

    When are you going to begin to understand that there is a vast difference between the persecution (tribulation) of the saints and the tribulation period that is coming upon the entire world in that hour? The persecution of the saints has been going on since Cain killed Abel. Therefore, Jesus could not have referred to the persecution of the saints when He said: “For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. (Mat 24:21). Or do you doubt Jesus’ words and suggest that He was lying?

    Daphne wrote:

    You Said: “Why would anyone want to believe that Jesus Christ will abuse His Bride before she comes to heaven? Why would anyone believe that we will go through God’s WRATH. The WRATH of God is His judgment upon the world not on His kids.”

    What you need to be asking yourself is: why would someone stop believing in the pre-trib rapture: It is a wonderful thought! And please don’t think it is because they listen to false teachers because I don’t do that; I study for myself.

    Surely you must know that you don’t need to be led astray by false teachers when you are one yourself. You only need to listen to your own heresies to be misled. False teachers also study the Word of God with an intent to twist and misrepresent it. (2 Pet 3:16).

    Daphne wrote:

    All the persecution that is to happen through the tribulation is done by the devil and his buddies: the Antichrist and the False Prophet not by Jesus. It will be the Antichrist that kills because people don’t except the mark. Why is that so hard for people to understand? Why do they insist that the tribulation is the same as the punishment of God? Christians are not to endure the punishment of God but they are told many times that they will endure tribulations and those tribulations may include death by the enemy for his name’s sake.

    You are the one insisting that the tribulation of the saints and the seven years tribulation period is the same thing because, according to you, the saints will go through the Great Tribulation. The seven years tribulation is a unique period which will only happen once and never again (Mat 24:21). Indeed, the tribulation (persecution) of the saints is not the same as the punishment (wrath) of God. The seven seals, seven trumpets and the seven vials or bowls (which are all the judgments of God on the people dwelling on the earth) are all uniquely associated with the seven years tribulation period and NOT the persecution of the saints that have been going on non-stop since Cain killed Abel. Once again, these events can only be associated with God’s wrath and judgment in the tribulation period and NOT the persecution of the saints. God’s program of judgment during the seven years tribulation will transpire as follows:

    1) The seven seals represent the beginning of the unfolding of the judgment program of God. (Rev 6)
    2) The second portion of the judgment program is that revealed through the blowing of the seven trumpets. (Rev 8:2-11:15).
    3) The third series of judgments, which complete the outpouring of divine wrath, are the vials (Rev 16:1-21)
    4) Revelation 17 outlines the judgment of the great harlot, the apostate religious system, that exists in the tribulation period.
    5) The judgment of the beast (Antichrist) and his empire.

    Will the church be present on earth when these judgments are poured out? J Dwight Pentecost writes as follows in his book “Things to Come: A Study in Biblical Eschatology, pp 197-198”

    The purpose of the seventieth week. The Scriptures indicate that there are two major purposes to be accomplished in the seventieth week.

    The first purpose is stated in Revelation 3:10, “I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.” Apart from the question involved as to who will be in this time of testing there are several other important considerations in this verse.

    First of all we see that this period has in view “them that dwell on the earth” and not the church. This same expression occurs in Revelation 6:10; 11:10; 13:8, 12, 14; 14:6 and 17:8. In its usage it is not giving us a geographical description but rather a moral classification. Thiessen writes:

    Now the word “dwell” used here (katoikeo) is a strong word. It is used to describe the fulness of the Godhead that dwelt in Christ (Col. 2:9) ; it is used of Christ’s taking up a permanent abode in the believer’s heart (Eph. 3:17), and of demons returning to take absolute possession of a man (Matt. 12:45; Luke 11:26). It is to be distinguished from the word oikeo, which is the general term for “dwell,” and paroikeo, which has the idea of transitoriness, “to sojourn.” Thayer remarks that the term katoikeo has the idea of permanence in it. Thus the judgment referred to in Rev. 3:10 is directed against the earth-dwellers of that day, against those who have settled down in the earth as their real home, who have identified themselves with the earth’s commerce and religion.

    Since this period is related to “earth dwellers,” those that have settled down to permanent occupancy, it can have no reference to the church, which would be subjected to the same experiences if it were here.

    The second consideration to be noted here is the use of the infinitive peirasai (to try) to express purpose. Thayer defines this word, when God is its subject, “to inflict evils upon one in order to prove his character and the steadfastness of his faith.” Since the Father never sees the church except in Christ, perfected in Him, this period can have no reference to the church, for the true church does not need to be tested to see if her faith is genuine.

    The second major purpose of the seventieth week is in relation to Israel. In Malachi 4:5-6 it is stated:

    Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and terrible day of the Lord: And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse.

    The prophet states that the ministry of this Elijah was a ministry to prepare the people for the King who was shortly to come. In Luke 1:17 it is promised that the son born to Zacharias would “go before him in the spirit and power of Elias” to perform this very ministry and “to make ready a people prepared for the Lord.” Concerning the coming of Elijah which was to have been a sign to Israel, the Lord states:

    Elias verily cometh first, and restoreth all things; and how it is written of the Son of man, that he must suffer many things, and be set at naught. But I say unto you, that Elias is indeed come, and they have done unto him whatsoever they listed, as it is written of him [Mk. 9:12-13].

    The Lord was showing the disciples that John the Baptist had this ministry of preparing a people for Him. And to remove all doubt, the word in Matthew 11:14 is conclusive, “if ye will receive it, this is Elias, which was for to come.” John’s ministry was a ministry to prepare the nation Israel for the coming of the King. It can only be concluded then that Elijah, who is to come before the great and terrible day of the Lord, can have only one ministry: that of preparing a remnant in Israel for the advent of the Lord. It is evident that no such ministry is needed by the church since she by nature is without spot or wrinkle or any such thing, but is holy and without blemish.

    These two purposes, the testing of earth dwellers, and the preparation of Israel for the King, have no relation to the church whatsoever. This is supporting evidence that the church will not be in the seventieth week.

    Daphne wrote:

    You Said: “Since the rapture and the second coming of Christ are not the same, if the rapture is at the end of the Great Trib then when is His second coming. How can they be happening at the same time? No, No, No. While the great trib goes on here below, we the saved will stand before the Judgment Seat of Christ and give an account of our lives lived for Him. This is also when the Marriage Supper of the Lamb takes place. Then we along with our Savior get to do some awesome horse-back riding down here and will watch Him defeat once and for all Satan and all that pertains to him.”

    Please answer me this: why aren’t the “tribulation saints” invited to the marriage supper? Those people will die for Jesus why would they not be there? And when does their resurrection happen or are they left out of that too? Also, one more thing: if Christians aren’t to suffer the wrath of God and the wrath of God is the tribulation then wouldn’t those Christians killed in that time be suffering the wrath of God?

    While the consummation of the marriage (wedding) of the Lamb will take place in heaven, the Marriage supper will take place here on earth. In fact, the Marriage Supper of the Lamb encompasses the entire 1000 year reign of Jesus Christ on earth. Hence the tribulation saints are also going to partake of the Marriage Supper. (Rev 20:4-5).

    Your question: “if Christians aren’t to suffer the wrath of God and the wrath of God is the tribulation then wouldn’t those Christians killed in that time be suffering the wrath of God?” stems from your persistent ignorance of the difference between the wrath of God and the persecution of the saints.

    The unbelievers who now reject Jesus Christ as their Saviour will remain behind at the Pre-Trib Rapture and face the wrath of Antichrist. In fact, the Bible clearly says that God Himself gives the Antichrist the power to overcome (slaughter) the Jews and Gentiles who get saved during the tribulation. (Rev 13:7). In a nutshell: while these Jews and Gentiles are still unsaved during the tribulation, they will have to bear the brunt of God’s judgments in the same way as the rest of the world but as soon as they get saved they will escape these judgments when Antichrist kills them. Most of these tribulation Christians are going to be beheaded. There will, however, be some who are going to escape Antichrist’s wrath – the sealed 144000 from Israel. J Dwight Pentecost says on page 214 of his book “Things to Come:”

    As long as the church is on the earth there are none saved to a special Jewish relationship. All who are saved are saved to a position in the body of Christ as indicated in Colossians 1:26-29; 3:11; Ephesians 2:14-22; 3:1-7. During the seventieth week the church must be absent, for out of the saved remnant of Israel God seals 144,000 Jews, 12,000 from each tribe, according to Revelation 7:14. The fact that God is again dealing with Israel on this national relationship, setting them apart to national identities, and sending them as special representatives to the nations in place of the witness of the church, indicates that the church must no longer be on earth [during the seven years tribulation period].

    Daphne wrote:

    You Said: “So all I can do is suggest that those of you who don’t believe in the Blessed Hope pray and ask Jesus to let you stay down here while all hell breaks out on earth. Wouldn’t it be something if he answered that prayer in the affirmative? Don’t take the Mark of Beast while you stay here.”

    Not holding the pre-trib point of view does not mean someone doesn’t believe in the Blessed Hope. The Blessed Hope is the Resurrection not the rapture. Jesus didn’t die so that you and I would be saved from getting our heads cut off; he died so that we would have eternal life with him; that my friend is the true Blessed Hope.

    You are right. The Blessed Hope is the resurrection of the deceased saints at the Pre-Trib Rapture. (1 Thess 4:16-18). Unbelievers are going to be raised after the 1000 years reign of Christ on earth. (Rev 20:5).

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Daphne

    Thank you for your concern :)

    As for your comment. My goodness, I just shake my head, you are very confused lol

  • Daphne, not until you underfstand Jesus’ words in Matthew 24:21: ““For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no nor ever shall be.” will you and I be able to discuss the seven year tribulation which lies ahead of the world in the future.

  • […] Thomas Lessing (Watch and Pray / Waak en Bid) { Daphne, not until you underfstand Jesus' words in Matthew 24:21: "“For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not… } – Seals, Trumpets, Bowls and The Blessed Hope – Oct 08, 9:08 PM […]

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