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Jesus Christ, a Dismal Failure?

Icon Mongoose Icon75 Jesus Christ, a Dismal Failure?

CalvinistsBelieveJesusChristADismalFailure Jesus Christ, a Dismal Failure?

Calvinists Claim that Jesus Christ, a Dismal Failure?

I happened to come across this site this morning (not really, because I clicked on a link on another site and I was taken there) and could not help but smile again at how yet another Calvinist tries to demolish free-will. No matter how hard he and other Calvinists try to do that, their childish arguments lead them into a deadly cul de sac again and again. The main thrust of their argument runs as follows.

1) If Jesus loves all men and died for all men to save them all alike, then He was a useless failure because not all men are saved. 

Success, in the Calvinist’s view, is not determined by Christ’s perfect obedience to his Father but by the redemption of all his people whom He purportedly has unconditionally chosen unto salvation from all eternity. This poses somewhat of a problem. Of the more than 220 times the phrase “my people” appears in the Bible the majority refers to Israel. Hence, it is rather odd to say that God has unconditionally chosen all his people unto salvation and that every single one of them will be saved when most of the nation of Israel will not be saved (Matthew 8:12; Romans 11:28-29), unless, of course, Israel has been replaced by the so-called elect among all the heathen nations. Then, however, Calvinists would be trespassing their own rigid fortitude to defend God’s sovereignty because they are wilfully (excuse the pun) denying that Israel is still God’s chosen people despite their continued enmity with the Gospel (Romans 11:28-29).

2) If Jesus offers salvation to all mankind and desperately tries to save all of them, then He is again a dismal failure because man’s choice stymies his will to save them all.

Calvinists don’t seem to understand or refuse point-blank to acknowledge that God’s sovereign will is being stymied every single day, not only by unbelievers but also by the elect. Each time an elect person sins he is frustrating God’s will. Indeed, if his sovereign will was being done on earth as it is in heaven his saints would not have needed to pray the “Our Father who art in heaven” prayer any longer. Nevertheless, Calvinists have found a very nifty way to circumvent this problem. God’s sovereign will is being done every single day, they dare say, because “God from all eternity, did, by the most wise and holy counsel of His own will, freely, and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass . . .” (Westminster Confession of Faith, Chapter III; Of God’s Eternal Decree). God ordained and sovereignly willed Adam an Eve to sin but they are held responsible for their sins? Really? Similarly God ordained and sovereignly willed Satan and his hordes of angels to rebel against Him so that He could blame them and hold them responsible for their sin?  Really? Yet they have the nerve to say “ . . . yet so, as thereby neither is God the author of sin, nor is violence offered to the will of the creatures; nor is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established.” In simple layman’s terms, what the Westminster Confession of faith actually asserts, is that God said the following: “Ok you guys, listen up. I decreed even before the foundation of the world that each and every one of you should sin against me. However, should anyone of you dare to point a finger at me and accuse me of being an accomplice in your sins, will bite the dust. You are responsible for your own sins which I decreed you to do.”

This vile and infamous doctrine emasculates God’s righteousness. The Psalmist says: “The LORD is righteous in all his ways, and holy in all his works. (Psalm 145:17). What kind of righteousness is there in a decree that ordained everyone to sin and then hold them responsible for their sin?

3) If man’s choice (free-will) is the decisive and conclusive determinate in his salvation, then Jesus’ will is bound by man’s will and therefore yet again a failure.

Calvinists refuse to acknowledge that it is God’s will that all men should be saved (2 Peter 3:9; 1 John 2:2), the result being that they cannot see that God’s will is not violated in any degree when someone is willing or unwilling be saved. In some of my debates with Calvinists on the internet I asked whether they forcefully coerced their wives to marry them or honoured their freewill to either choose or reject them. They never answered me because none of them would dare to say that they forced their wives into a loving marital relationship with them. There can be no lasting relationship between two consenting individuals when love is divorced of free-will. It is impossible to love someone without a free-will. Free-will and love go hand in hand. If so, why would a God who created man in his own image violate the natural partnership between love and free-will and force someone to love Him without them having to exercise their own free-will? That’s preposterous.

4) If Jesus Christ died on the cross to make it possible for everyone to be saved through faith, then He was a dismal failure because multitudes have perished and will perish in unbelief.

Jesus Christ died for our sins (1 Corinthians 15:3; Galatians 1:4; 1 John 2:2; 1 John 4:10) and no one can benefit from Christ’s substitutionary death for sins without faith (Hebrews 11:6). Jesus tasted death for every man (Hebrews 2:9) but every man is not saved because of unbelief and not because Christ did not die for them. The Calvinist’s view stems from the notion that the cross saves the elect automatically without them having to put their faith in Christ IN ORDER to be saved.Christ’s death is only propitiatory for those who believe: He is “the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe” (1 Timothy 4:10). Vance points out the obvious problem if the death of Christ automatically procures salvation for those for whom He died:

But if the nature of the atonement was such that it actually in and of itself provided salvation for those for whom it was intended, then the “elect” could never have been born “dead in trespasses and sins” (Eph. 2:1). And consequently, how could men who were saved, redeemed, reconciled, and justified be “by nature children of wrath” (Eph. 2:5) … ?

I have yet to find a Calvinist who can explain Isaiah 49:4 to me.

Then I said, I have laboured in vain, I have spent my strength for nought, and in vain: yet surely my judgment is with the LORD, and my work with my God. (Isa 49:4)

At the first reading of this verse the Messiah seems to lament his failure as a Saviour. Although He knew even before the foundation of the world that the majority of his chosen people, the nation of Israel, would reject Him as their Messiah, He steadfastly remained obedient to his Father and died for their sins (Hebrews 10:6-7). He never measured success by the number people saved and neither did he measure it by making certain that all the so-called elect were saved. Success, to Him, was to obey his Father even though he laboured in vain, and spent his strength for nought and in vain.

He came unto his own, and his own received him not. But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name. (John 1:11-12)

It is abundantly clear from this verse that faith and free-will are indispensible prerequisites for anyone’s salvation. It completely debunks Calvinism and its vile doctrines of grace.

Referring to the pronouncement of this doctrine at the Synod of Dort, England’s King James of King James Bible fame, though he was no Arminian, expressed his repugnance:

This doctrine is so horrible, that I am persuaded, if there were a council of unclean spirits assembled in hell, and their prince the devil were to [ask] their opinion about the most likely means of stirring up the hatred of men against God their Maker; nothing could be invented by them that would be more efficacious for this purpose, or that could put a greater affront upon God’s love for mankind than that infamous decree of the late Synod. (King James I; in Jacobus Arminius, The Works of James Arminius, trans. James and William Nichols (Baker Book House, 1986), 1:213).

pixel Jesus Christ, a Dismal Failure?

19 comments to Jesus Christ, a Dismal Failure?

  • Sharon

    My heart skipped a beat just at the title of this article. I realize that this is exactly what Calvinists say about my Savior & King. I’ve been told the same stuff by a Calvinist. “Well if Jesus died for everyone, then he failed those in hell.” That statement really break my heart and makes me mad.

    Those in hell will be “without excuse” because Jesus atoned for their sins just like He did for mine. They will stand before God at the Great White Throne Judgment and they will not be able to answer before a Holy God.

    My Jesus, Deborah’s Redeemed, Carol and others Jesus is NOT a failure. He has made no mistakes and He is King of Kings and Lord of Lords!

  • brotherdonny

    Hi yea great article, maybe the Calvinist don’t understand that salvation is only the beginning of the christian life,forgiveness of sins is included in salvation, but we were saved to also have everlasting life.John 3:16. In this the love of God was manifested towards us that God has sent His only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through Him.1John.4:9 We live through Jesus now. Eternal life is not a place– Eternal life is a Person.And this is the Testimony,that God has given us Eternal life,and this life is in His Son. 1John 5:11 The power of the new life, is Christ manifesting His life through us. Now the Calvinist is not going to see that unless the light of Jesus has shown in their hearts. As the scriptures say.(—to GIVE the light of the knowledge of the Glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.) Truth is not only what you say, but also what you do. 1John 1:6
    I enjoy your articles as you contend earnestly for the Faith.
    brotherdonny

  • Willem Zaaiman

    (Please take note that I am not English and my tenses etc. will not always be correct)

    To understand the doctrine of election is a long study and to really understand it is to humble yourself below sea level.(which is very difficult for all human beings, because we are all born with proudness – although some of us don’t think so.)

    To reject the doctrine is only part of that proudness that still remain in you as the “T” in TULIP explain. That is why we have the proud rationalist that knows everything and believe that they can explain everything and anything that cannot be worked out by the human mind, is not true. (But remember Isa 55:8-9, Ps92:5 etc.)

    Go on mocked the “Calvinist” (Calvin was only the person who put the doctrine nice on paper, but millions of people could see the truth). When I read through all your writings and clever arguments I cannot help to think what Jesus said in Luk 10:21.
    My dear friends – Be careful to think you know everything

    Some points to think about (If the “Calvinist” are wrong):
    - Only those who believed will be saved – but faith is a gift from God
    (Ef 2:8)
    - The Triune God is a God who choose (Just to name a few):
    – God choose Noah
    – God choose Abraham (Gen18:19)
    – God choose Israel (Deut 7:6)
    – God choose David (1Sam16:7)
    – God choose Salomon (1Chron 28:5)
    – God choose Paul (Act 9:15)
    – God choose His people (Rom 8:29)
    – etc etc.

    Mat 15:24 – (Maybe you will not understand this one now)
    Mat 22:14; 24:24
    Mark 13:20-22.27 NB!
    Jhn 6:35-40
    etc etc.

    There is numerous other examples but the last one I want to mention:
    Jesus prayer in John 17
    - Verses 2,6,9.24 – If Jesus is not even prepared to pray for the world but only for the elected people, why would he be prepared to die for them?

    People who are really elected and reborn will never be proud of the fact that they are chosen (and that is why most people don’t even answer you), because they know it is only mercy / grace from God, and nothing that they did themselves.

    Be careful to think you know everything
    Regards
    Willem Zaaiman

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Dear Willem

    1) John Calvin was a MURDER – Do you follow a murder’s teachings?
    Calvinists Justify the Known Murderer, John Calvin.
    What does the bible say about murder? is it not in the 10 commandments?

    The Legacy of John Calvin – Part 1
    The Legacy of John Calvin – Part 2
    The Legacy of John Calvin – Part 3

    THEN READ THIS to UNDERSTAND What it means to be PREDESTINED! (NOT the Calvinist version)
    What it Really Means to be “Elected, Chosen, and Predestinated” – The Biblical Truth

    >> Be careful to think you know everything

    Right back at ya :)

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Hi brother donny!!

    Thanks for commenting! We really appreciate it :)

  • Sharon

    Willem, we are NOT chosen for Salvation. Every person you listed was chosen for SERVICE for God. God’s Plan for each person you listed had a specific purpose for the Kingdom of God. God was building up a people simply because he loved them. He wanted to be their King rather than having an Earthly King. But…they wanted a King like “all the other nations” had.

    He chose Abraham, Isaac and Jacob to populate HIS people. Abraham was not even Jewish. That’s why it took three generations to be God’s chosen peculiar people. It is obvious that Jacob would be the head of Israel, God changed Jacobs name to Israel for obvious reasons.

    As far as Israel having an Earthly King, they chose Saul. God permitted their choice even though it was not His perfect will. After some victories and some really bad defeats God chose the next and beloved King David. King David was a man after God’s own heart. Was he perfect? No. But King David loved his people, and loved God even more. He was chosen for SERVICE and also was quick to repent when confronted with his sin. May I be a David like that!

    Because of David’s love for God, he wanted to build a place for the Ark of the Covenant rather than it be in a tent. But it was not God’s plan for King David to build the Temple. But…because God saw the desire of David’s heart God permitted David to have two great joys. 1. He received the plan “blue prints” for the Temple. 2. David was able to raise the funds for the Temple and have the wonderful joy of seeing his son Solomon build the Temple for the Ark, or God’s presence. I don’t know if you have children or not Willem, but some of the greatest joys a parent has is to see their children be successful in their lifetime.

    We know from scripture that while King David sinned in having the husband of Bathsheba murdered, God still used David and will use Him again in the future. In spite of all of David’s sin, God promised that the lineage of David would always be on the throne of Israel. Solomon was at times the wises man ever born. But as wonderful as Solomon’s work for God was he sinned great sins as well. But God still used him mightily.

    The Apostle Paul was a Jew of Jews, highly educated. He went about doing what he thought was service to God by killing Christians. But on the road to Damascus Jesus “chose” Saul/Paul. He chose Paul for service. A service in which he would give his life for. As hateful as Saul was God changed his heart to take the gospel to a people that were not a people, the Gentiles. Praise the Lord that means you, me and millions of us. That age will soon close.

    Each and every one of those you listed were used of God and God chose them for a specific service.

    You rightly say of “election” that it is a very long study. While the study is long the true gospel of Jesus Christ is not. The Gospel of Jesus Christ is so simple that even a child can understand.

    You say that “election” was designed to keep a person humble? No, I’m sorry it isn’t designed to keep Calvinists humble. There are exceptions to what I am about to say, but those exceptions are few and far between. “Calvinist are some of the most arrogant, snotty, proud-hearted people I have ever met.” The pure and simple Gospel of Jesus Christ is too simple for their proud hearts. Jesus never said, you shall go out and tell people they are or are not elected of God. But he did say, you shall be witnesses for me!

    You mention human pride. Yep we ALL have it and have to lay it at the cross of Jesus everyday.

    The verses you list in Isaiah 55, are very true. Gods ways are much higher than ours. God reveals himself in those verses. But he didn’t say that the Gospel of His Son, Jesus would be hard to understand or receive. Calvin was NOT the only one to “write it on paper.” Do you not know where his false gospel came from? He got it from Augustine a Catholic! He got his teaching from the Whore System. You better study more about Calvin the man rather than his false gospel. He was an unrepentant murderer of approximately 50-55 people. He consented to the beheading of a 14 year old girl for hitting her mother! Have you ever read the “Statement of Faith” of John Calvin? I will post it again so you can read it.

    We here that see the truth about Calvinism are not “mocking Calvinism.” We are warning people that TULIP means death, spiritual, eternal death.

    Perhaps I am not intellectual enough for Calvinistic teaching. That’s an argument Calvinist use against us who are not. The amount of “intellect” that leads to arrogance, mean spiritedness, and the “we know it all but you don’t” makes me sick. Calvin took the glorious and simple message of the cross of Jesus Christ and perverted it.
    For approximately 1400 years prior to Augustine being born this “filthy, perverted doctrine” we now call Calvinism was NEVER TAUGHT in the ancient church! It took a Catholic Mystic (Augustine) to teach this false teaching.

    No, Willem YOU are the one that has “chosen” to believe a lie. God will let you choose. That’s called “Free-Will.” God is Sovereign for sure. But He is a big enough God to let man have free will. When God created man, he gave us free will right from the start with Adam & Eve.

    Peace to you Willem, His peace.

    Willem Zaaiman wrote:

    (Please take note that I am not English and my tenses etc. will not always be correct)

    To understand the doctrine of election is a long study and to really understand it is to humble yourself below sea level.(which is very difficult for all human beings, because we are all born with proudness – although some of us don’t think so.)

    To reject the doctrine is only part of that proudness that still remain in you as the “T” in TULIP explain. That is why we have the proud rationalist that knows everything and believe that they can explain everything and anything that cannot be worked out by the human mind, is not true. (But remember Isa 55:8-9, Ps92:5 etc.)

    Go on mocked the “Calvinist” (Calvin was only the person who put the doctrine nice on paper, but millions of people could see the truth). When I read through all your writings and clever arguments I cannot help to think what Jesus said in Luke
    10:21.
    My dear friends – Be careful to think you know everything

    Some points to think about (If the “Calvinist” are wrong):
    – Only those who believed will be saved – but faith is a gift from God
    (Ef 2:8)
    – The Triune God is a God who choose (Just to name a few):
    – God choose Noah
    – God choose Abraham (Gen18:19)
    – God choose Israel (Deut 7:6)
    – God choose David (1Sam16:7)
    – God choose Salomon (1Chron 28:5)
    – God choose Paul (Act 9:15)
    – God choose His people (Rom 8:29)
    – etc etc.

    Mat 15:24 – (Maybe you will not understand this one now)
    Mat 22:14; 24:24
    Mark 13:20-22.27 NB!
    Jhn 6:35-40
    etc etc.

    There is numerous other examples but the last one I want to mention:
    Jesus prayer in John 17
    – Verses 2,6,9.24 – If Jesus is not even prepared to pray for the world but only for the elected people, why would he be prepared to die for them?

    People who are really elected and reborn will never be proud of the fact that they are chosen (and that is why most people don’t even answer you), because they know it is only mercy / grace from God, and nothing that they did themselves.

    Be careful to think you know everything
    Regards
    Willem Zaaiman

  • Sharon

    Here you go Willem, the Statement of Salvation of Augustine & John Calvin:

    Professions of Salvation by Famous/Infamous People

    Augustine’s “Conversion”

    Augustine’s conversion, like many other important historical events, did not happen all at once or as the result of a single event. Rather, Augustine’s conversion to Christianity was the result of several major life events. Specifically, there were five stages to his conversion, along with another pushing ongoing factor. The five major stages were 1) the reading of Hortensius by Cicero; 2) his rejection of Manichaeanism; 3) his meeting with St. Ambrose; 4) his reading of Neoplatonist works; and 5) Augustine’s vision. All of these stages were also accented by the ongoing factor of Augustine’s mother’s influence as a pious Catholic. It is important to note that Augustine’s conversion to Christianity was not the just the result of events in his later life. His Christian influences began upon his birth to his Catholic mother. “And I was signed with the sign of His Cross and seasoned with his salt as I came new from the womb of my mother, who had great trust in You.” (pg.11) Though his father was a pagan, he did little to nothing to influence his son away from the teachings of Christianity.

    The Visions of Augustine & His Mother, Monica

    In the first vision, this idea is an “instant of awe” where Augustine recognizes God. (Page 151) This instant has not been longed for or desired. However, in the second vision, the chain of thought leads to a “touching” of the eternal Wisdom, which is the purpose of the ascent. The success of Augustine and Monica in the second vision lies in the power of their hearts, or their faith (Page 197), where the fault of Augustine in the first vision lies in the weakness of his will and soul. (Page 151) It is also interesting to note that in the first vision he sees the general God, where in the second vision Monica and Augustine see the specific qualities of God. From this, the reader may conclude that enhanced faith leads to a more complete knowledge of God.

    This is supported by the idea that divine knowledge is more reliable than human knowledge. The period of Augustine’s life in which these visions took place is significant in his development of faith. The first vision is in the beginning of Augustine’s conversion to Christianity. (Book 7, Pages 133-156) Because of his lack of faith (and therefore a lack of knowledge acquired by faith), he cannot be close to God and must rely on sight (or reason) to know Him. (Page 151)

    This is the opposite of the second vision, where Augustine and Monica have completed their conversion and are able to touch (or experience) God. (Page 151) This reiterates the idea that enhanced faith leads to a more complete knowledge of God. As Monica and Augustine are not eternal, as the vision is, their vision can only last for a short period. Augustine “recoils” from his first vision due to a weakness in his faith, his will, and his intellect. (Page 152) Nothing of the vision remains but its memory, which makes him long for the love and acceptance of God, and helps his faith grow. (Page 152) The significant change in the strength of Augustine’s will and intellect are seen in his fall from the second vision.

    Augustine is still considered by Rome to be the 4th Founding Father of the Roman Whore Religion. Augustine (a Catholic) is where John Calvin got his “theology” from. If Augustine taught it then so did John Calvin. John Calvin “reformed” nothing. As much as he hated Rome, Calvin retained much of the false teachings of Rome. “Augustine is so wholly with me, that if I wished to write a confession of my faith, I could do so with all fulness and satisfaction to myself out of his writings.” (Words of John Calvin)

    There are no words of repentance along with no words of receiving Jesus Christ as his Savior. There seems to be no brokenness over sin, only his “recognition of God in his mind.”

    The Two Different Statements of the “Conversion” of John Calvin

    During the autumn of 1533 Calvin experienced a religious conversion. In his later life, John Calvin wrote two different accounts of his conversion that differ in significant ways. In the first account he portrays his conversion as a sudden change of mind, brought about by God. This account can be found in his Commentary on the Book of Psalms:

    1. God by a sudden conversion subdued and brought my mind to a teachable frame, which was more hardened in such matters than might have been expected from one at my early period of life. Having thus received some taste and knowledge of true godliness, I was immediately inflamed with so intense a desire to make progress therein, that although I did not altogether leave off other studies, yet I pursued them with less ardor.

    As with Augustine there is no mention of Jesus Christ. No mention of repentance or sorrow over sin. No receiving Jesus Christ by Grace through Faith. This is the man that many have trusted what he says in his writings. This man and his false teachings have wreaked havoc in the lives of many well-meaning people. But the damage done to Baptist Churches is SIN! Why a Baptist Church would give any heed to the teachings of an unrepentant murderer is beyond my understanding. God is love and yet Calvinism makes God the author of all evil. That is Blasphemy! (Definition of BLASPHEMY: the act of insulting or showing contempt or lack of reverence for God)

    2. In his second account he speaks of a long process of inner turmoil, followed by spiritual and psychological anguish. Being exceedingly alarmed at the misery into which I had fallen, and much more at that which threatened me in view of eternal death, I, duty bound, made it my first business to betake myself to your way, condemning my past life, not without groans and tears. And now, O Lord, what remains to a wretch like me, but instead of defense, earnestly to supplicate you not to judge that fearful abandonment of your Word according to its deserts, from which in your wondrous goodness you have at last delivered me.

    As with his first statement, there is no confession of sin. There is no receiving Jesus Christ as Savior. There’s no mention of Jesus Christ at all! Acts 4:12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.

    Willem and any other Calvinist reading this, is this where you got your belief system from? If you did, then you need to fall on your face before God and ask for His forgiveness.

  • Willem Zaaiman

    To understand the doctrine of election is a long study and to really understand it is to humble yourself below sea level.(which is very difficult for all human beings, because we are all born with proudness – although some of us don’t think so.)

    I would like to think that at some stage in your life you were so madly in love with a girl that you sat down one time and wrote her a letter. But, for some strange reason, you made it so difficult for her to understand you adored her that you twisted, turned and changed the meaning of your words in such way that she could not possibly know that you loved her. In her response, she would probably have written: “Willem, I do not understand a hoot what you are trying to tell me. But don’t be dismayed, I will learn to humble myself below sea level and take about two to three years to study your letter and hopefully I will then be able to understand what you are trying to tell me.” In the meantime, she married someone else who simply told her “I love you, will you marry me?”

    Do you really think God would make salvation, the most important thing above all else, so difficult to understand that it took ages to learn to understand it? Yes, you must humble yourself before God in order to be saved but this kind of humility is not a false kind of humility Calvinists hang onto. The humility I’m talking about is the kind when you bow in reverent fear before the Lord, admit that you are a vile sinner who deserves to be cast into hell and beg for his mercy to save you, and then by faith alone receive his forgiveness for all your sins. But then again, Calvinists can’t humble themselves in this way because the very act of putting one’s trust in Jesus Christ and his finished work on the cross IN ORDER to be saved, is a travesty and a work to be avoided at all costs. Why would they want to do that when they’ve been predestined and elected unto salvation long before their existence? Who needs faith IN ORDER to be saved when it is given to you as a gift after your regeneration just because you are an elitist elect freak?

    Some points to think about (If the “Calvinist” are wrong):
    - Only those who believed will be saved – but faith is a gift from God
    (Ef 2:8)
    - The Triune God is a God who choose (Just to name a few):
    – God choose Noah
    – God choose Abraham (Gen18:19)
    – God choose Israel (Deut 7:6)
    – God choose David (1Sam16:7)
    – God choose Salomon (1Chron 28:5)
    – God choose Paul (Act 9:15)
    – God choose His people (Rom 8:29)
    – etc etc.

    No my friend, you’re wrong when you say “only those who believed WILL be saved.” Calvinists aren’t saved because they believe or believed. Faith is not the precondition of salvation to them. They are monergistically saved IN ORDER to believe. I can see why you say it is difficult to understand Calvinism. It is abundantly clear that you don’t have a clue what it is and what it stands for. Not a single one of the examples you mentioned from Noah to Paul describes predestination and election unto salvation. Every single one bears witness that predestination and election are always unto service or blessing and not salvation.

    There is numerous other examples but the last one I want to mention:
    Jesus prayer in John 17
    - Verses 2,6,9.24 – If Jesus is not even prepared to pray for the world but only for the elected people, why would he be prepared to die for them?

    I notice that like most Calvinists you blindly follow and believe the foolishness of other Calvinists. I have yet to find a Calvinist who does not refer to John 17 to substantiate his views. Jesus did not pray for the world because He decided or chose never to pray for the world (He prayed “Father forgive them for they know not what they do,” not for the elect but every single unbeliever who watched Him being crucified). He did not pray for the world because the prayer He prayed in John 17 was specifically only for believers. He could not pray that prayer for the world. The world cannot keep his word (verse 6). The world cannot receive the words his Father had given Him (verse 8). The world cannot no longer be in and of the world (verse 11). The world cannot hate itself (verse 13). He did not pray for the world because He did not want to or because He only prayed for the elect. He prayed that prayer because He couldn’t possibly pray that particular prayer for the world. So please, before you become excited, remember that He also prayed for the world of unbelievers. Why would He command his disciples to pray for their enemies when He refused to do so. That’s not a good example, is it?

    People who are really elected and reborn will never be proud of the fact that they are chosen (and that is why most people don’t even answer you), because they know it is only mercy / grace from God, and nothing that they did themselves.”

    Yes, and you believe that when a sinner places his faith in Jesus Christ IN ORDER to be saved, he is being proud. Putting one’s faith in Jesus Christ IN ORDER to be saved honours, exalts and praises God for his great work of salvation on the cross. In fact, the Bible says is is impossible to please God without faith (Hebrews 11:6). It refers to the faith one needs to place in Jesus IN ORDER to be saved and not a faith that is allegedly given only to the elect AFTER their regeneration. This kind of faith is described in Proverbs 14:12. I urge you to repent and renounce Calvinism with the disdain it deserves because it is NOT of God.

  • james jordan

    Calvinism is turning Jesus into a dismal failure. What I mean is the more Calvinists there are, the more Protestant denominations are infected by it, the more it spreads, the more Christianity is rejected by more people. The only solution is to separate Paul from Jesus’ hip by some radical surgery, and cut off the root of Calvinism (the Pauline epistles) once and for all so that the cancer can no longer grow on Christ’s back.

  • james jordan wrote:

    Calvinism is turning Jesus into a dismal failure. What I mean is the more Calvinists there are, the more Protestant denominations are infected by it, the more it spreads, the more Christianity is rejected by more people. The only solution is to separate Paul from Jesus’ hip by some radical surgery, and cut off the root of Calvinism (the Pauline epistles) once and for all so that the cancer can no longer grow on Christ’s back.

    As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.
    (2 Peter 3:16)

    As you can see, the twisting of Scripture is very dangerous and especially the Pauline epistles which Paul received directly from Jesus Christ (Galatians 1:11-12)

    You are playing with fire – the fires of hell.

  • Willem Zaaiman

    I can see that I am in the enemies courtyard
    No further comment

    Tit 3:8 The saying is trustworthy, and I want you to insist on these things, so that those who have believed in God may be careful to devote themselves to good works. These things are excellent and profitable for people.
    Tit 3:9 But avoid foolish controversies, genealogies, dissensions, and quarrels about the law, for they are unprofitable and worthless.

  • Willem Zaaiman wrote

    I can see that I am in the enemies courtyard
    No further comment

    Tit 3:8 The saying is trustworthy, and I want you to insist on these things, so that those who have believed in God may be careful to devote themselves to good works. These things are excellent and profitable for people.
    Tit 3:9 But avoid foolish controversies, genealogies, dissensions, and quarrels about the law, for they are unprofitable and worthless.

    You’ve put yourself in the enemy’s courtyard, not us. Anyone, and that includes you, who believes that God loved only a select few (including you) and only died for them (including you) is an enemy of God. If you really want to devote yourself to good works, get out of the enemy’s camp (Calvinism) and preach the Gospel of Jesus Christ that says He wants everyone to be saved (2 Peter 3:9; 1 John 2:2) .

    The passage you quoted concerns quarrels about the law, genealogies and dissensions. When did we quarrel with you over the law? I was discussing the heresies of Calvinism that goes to the heart of the Gospel – the salvation of mankind. It’s got nothing to do with the law or genealogies. If you don’t know what the difference is, don’t blame us for your ignorance.

    I can assure you that contending for the faith that was once delivered to us is not unprofitable. I’ll tell you why. Many people who’d been duped by Calvinism have come out of the quagmire of lies and deceit and are now truly saved because they realized they were in the enemy’s camp who works – not good works – but works of the devil. Calvinism is NOT, I repeat, is NOT of God. It is a false gospel and is leading multitudes like you astray.

  • Sheugnet

    Just the start up of this article showed me that a person with an ‘agenda’ wrote this. After giving this whole ‘for – or against Calvinism-thing’ a lot of thought and doing a bit of research I came to a conclusion.

    Paul said, ‘…we see through a glass darkly..’ We cannot know EVERYTHING. All of us make mistakes. YES, EVEN YOU!

    John Calvyn was chosen by God to map out the foundation of our Christian faith after the dark ages, even as God chose Saul to be His apostle to the nations beyond the Judean and Samarian border. We need to think with gratitude about men like Martin Luther and John Calvyn, for if it had not been for their courage and dedication, we would not have been here with all the knowledge that we are privileged to have through the Word of God.

    B.t.w. Thomas. God DOES love selectively. The Bible says very clearly that God loved Jacob, but hated Esau. If Calvinism is leading multitudes astray, then where on earth do all the Christians come from? Wasn’t it through the basic Word based teachings of Calvyn that the church grew in those beginning years after the dark ages? Has God changed at all? Would He have used the Calvinistic teachings then and not now to build His church?

  • Sheugnet wrote:

    Paul said, ‘…we see through a glass darkly..’ We cannot know EVERYTHING. All of us make mistakes. YES, EVEN YOU!

    No-one dares misunderstand salvation. If you do you may lose your soul for all eternity.

    You misunderstand Jacob and Esau. Do you love your wife? You shouldn’t you know, because Jesus said if you do not hate her you cannot be his disciple (Luke 14:26). You have a whole year to work that on out and if you have you will understand Romans 9:13. Until then, you shouldn’t try to give an opinion on things you do not understand (2 Timothy 3:6-7).

    If Calvinism is leading multitudes astray, then where on earth do all the Christians come from?

    From those who have not been led astray by Calvinists.

  • Edmund

    Eph 5:25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;

    My wedding vows stay.

  • Edmund

    Eph 5:25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;

    My wedding vows stay.

    Your answer proves that you don’t have a clue what Romans 9:13 means.

    If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple. (Luk 14:26)

  • Sharon

    Willem, you have proved a point for we non-Calvinists/non-Arminians. You Calvinists consider us the enemy. Thanks, I always knew it of Calvinists. Yes, The Biblical truth which we believe does make us your enemy for sure. You are also an enemy of the Cross. Why? Because the cross isn’t necessary for the Calvinist. God just “zaps” you with irresistible grace and you’re saved. That is an enemy of the Cross of Jesus Christ.

    Willem Zaaiman wrote:

    I can see that I am in the enemies courtyard
    No further comment

    Tit 3:8 The saying is trustworthy, and I want you to insist on these things, so that those who have believed in God may be careful to devote themselves to good works. These things are excellent and profitable for people.
    Tit 3:9 But avoid foolish controversies, genealogies, dissensions, and quarrels about the law, for they are unprofitable and worthless.

  • Sharon

    Are you kidding us? God chose Calvin to map out our foundation??? Are you joking?
    1st Corinthians 3:11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ. Are you saying God chose Calvin to steal the foundation of Jesus Christ?
    You need to throw out the Institutes of the Christian Religion (which are anything but) and get yourself a King James Bible and read about Jesus Christ, the real foundation of the Christian Religion.

    Thank God for Calvin and Luther? Were there no Christians before them? Luther and Calvin REFORMED nothing. There were true Christians, Anabaptists, Waldensens, Paulicians, Bogomils, Donnatists, and many other born again Christians that were BURNED at the stake by the likes of the Popes, Calvin, The Church of England. God didn’t need Luther or Calvin to get us back on the narrow path.

    Read about the Waldensens. Look up on the internet this small book:
    The History of the Waldenses
    By J. A. Wylie (1808-1890)
    London: Cassell and Company, c1860

    You can cut and paste it for free. It is about 88 pages and it tells of the horrors these bible believing, non-Calvinists saints went through. Mothers had to watch as soldiers raped their daughters, tore apart their infants and then threw their husbands and themselves over rocky mountain cliffs.

    No sir, God didn’t need the Jew hating Calvin because Calvin added to the misery and murder of true believers. He didn’t need the Jew hating Luther either. If that is “reformation” I want none of it. I am a Christian first. But then I am a Baptist by conviction and we Baptists pre-dated the reformation….Thank God!

    Sheugnet wrote:

    Just the start up of this article showed me that a person with an ‘agenda’ wrote this. After giving this whole ‘for – or against Calvinism-thing’ a lot of thought and doing a bit of research I came to a conclusion.

    Paul said, ‘…we see through a glass darkly..’ We cannot know EVERYTHING. All of us make mistakes. YES, EVEN YOU!

    John Calvyn was chosen by God to map out the foundation of our Christian faith after the dark ages, even as God chose Saul to be His apostle to the nations beyond the Judean and Samarian border. We need to think with gratitude about men like Martin Luther and John Calvyn, for if it had not been for their courage and dedication, we would not have been here with all the knowledge that we are privileged to have through the Word of God.

    B.t.w. Thomas. God DOES love selectively. The Bible says very clearly that God loved Jacob, but hated Esau. If Calvinism is leading multitudes astray, then where on earth do all the Christians come from? Wasn’t it through the basic Word based teachings of Calvyn that the church grew in those beginning years after the dark ages? Has God changed at all? Would He have used the Calvinistic teachings then and not now to build His church?

  • I appreciate that Willem stated he was in the enemy’s camp. It’s good that a Calvinist can draw lines between what he believes and God’s truth.
    That people can believe Calvin was a man of God is well beyond my compression. Not simply because of his theology –proof enough that he was no man of God–but because of his behaviour towards other human beings made in God’s image.
    Matt 22:37-40 and 26:52 came from the mouth of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ Himself. How difficult are those Scriptures to understand? How difficult is 1 Cor 13 to understand? Either Calvin (and Luther and John Knox) found them very difficult to understand or they never read those Scriptures.
    Anyone with a basic knowledge of Reformation history knows that many of the Reformers DID live by the sword–and with gusto!
    I’d also like to thank Sharon for mentioning that the Baptists pre-dated the Reformation. I didn’t know that. My wife and I have started to attend a baptist church and are delighted with the sound doctrine we are discovering there, after finding some really flaky stuff in a Reformation church which is, ironically, pro-Catholic and embracing Replacement (“theology”) heresy.

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