Hi Amanda,

Amanda: “It is a false hope. Christianity will not rule the world.” You also then quoted 2 Tim 3:1-9.

It’s a good quote. But right at the end of the Scripture you quoted it says: “But they will not get very far, for their folly will be plain to all, as was that of those two men.”

The Bible also says:
Matt 24:14 “And the gospel of the kingdom will be proclaimed throughout the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.”

Amanda: “In which session did he say this?”

He said this in his “African Reformation” session. Incidentally, I don’t concur with EVERYTHING Brian Mclaren says, I was making the point that Emergents want to see Christianity as the world religion.

Amanda: “The healing and salvation of societies? Where is that in the Bible?”

Isaiah 58:12
“Your people will rebuild the ancient ruins and will raise up the age-old foundations; you will be called Repairer of Broken Walls, Restorer of Streets with Dwellings”

Matthew 6:10
“your kingdom come, your will be done on earth as it is in heaven.”

Matt 5:3-9,10
“Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called sons of God”
“Blessed are those who are persecuted for righteousness’ sake, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven”.

Did you know that the word “righteousness” used in that scripture above, and in most places in the Bible, is the greek word “dikaiosunh” and it means justice as well? The word means ‘righteousness’ in a broad sense, and ‘justice’ in a narrow sense. It means ‘righteous-justice’. You will see God is very concerned about justice in this world. Look it up in a bible dictionary, or check the online bible at bible.org which also gives the original greek.

Rom 14:17
“For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking but of righteousness/justice and peace/shalom and joy in the Holy Spirit”.

In fact, the entire concept of “Shalom” (peace, and Jesus is the prince of Peace, prince of Shalom) is a concept that includes not just ‘peace’ inside a person, but peace in the world and society; and not just peace but also abundance for all. You can do a study on Shalom to see this. And is peace not a promise from God? If his will should be done on earth as it is done in heaven, then what should earth look like right now?

I have a question for you: have you ever wondered what the message of the Kingdom was that Jesus was preaching before he died? The revelation of the cross had not been given yet, so what was he preaching? How were those people he was preaching to getting saved? Was he preaching repentance only? Or repentance as the beginning into something else? Why did he only say he came to the lost sheep of Israel? What were Israel waiting for at the time? These questions lead to some very interesting answers.

Amanda: “What is your definition of hyper-fundamentalism? And fundamentalism?”

It’s difficult to say, because some who claim to be ‘fundamentalists’ are not the same as others who do.

Hyper-fundamentalists are extreme fundamentalists. They are generally ‘elitist’ where they claim to have all the truth and anyone who is a little different to them has no truth whatsoever. Everyone outside of their grouping or particularly interpretation of the Bible is eternally lost. In short, I see hyper-fundamentalism as a form of religion. I wrote a post on this at my blog, called “the spiritual dangers of hyper-fundamentalism.” You can read more on my opinion there.

Amanda: “Once believed? When did they change?”
I believe the Catholic church officially changed their stance at Vatican II.

Amanda: “The genuine Jesus Christ is the Savior who saves sinners from the wrath of God. The false Jesus of the emergents came to show us the better way to live.”
Yes, Jesus is the saviour who saves sinners from God’s just wrath. But, did he not ALSO come to show us a better way to live? What were the Beatitudes all about?

Amanda: “No! How can you say that?
I can say it quite simply because the Bible says it in Romans 12 and in 1 Cor 12.

1 Cor 12:20 “As it is, there are many parts, yet one body.” and 1 Cor 12:12: “For just as the body is one and has many members, and all the members of the body, though many, are one body, so it is with Christ. For in one Spirit we were all baptized into one body – Jews or Greeks, slaves or free – and all were made to drink of one Spirit.” The Bible then goes on to talk about how the eye cannot say to the hand “I have no need of you.”

Amanda: “Only Christians are part of the body of Christ. If you believe that you are the Gospel, then you are not saved and you are not part of the body of Christ.”

Yes, only Christians are only a part of the body of Christ. If you believe in Jesus, you ARE saved, for John 3:16 says “whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life.” Those who believe, are saved.

Remember a prodigal SON is still a son, even if he is a prodigal. All the pictures in the Bible that talk about being saved are pictures that show it cannot be undone. No one can be ‘unborn again’ nor can anyone be unadopted. There is no where in the Bible where you will find someone is unborn again or unadopted from God’s family, and then readopted. This means that even if some believers in Jesus are off track, they are not necessarily not saved. What will happen to them at the end of time, however? 1 Cor 3. They will lose their reward and inheritance, but will not lose their entrance into heaven. This loss of reward will be permanent, they will spend eternity with no reward.

Amanda: “How can Jesus be Lord if they replace the true Gospel that Christ died for our sins in accordance with the Scriptures, with “You are the Gospel”?”

What they are saying is that people look at your life as well as your words. You are the messenger or the good news, and your message includes both your words and your lifestyle. It lines up to that famous Francis of Assisi quote “preach the Gospel, and if necessary use words” although I don’t agree with that quote myself.

I’ll listen to Rosebrough when I’ve got some time. Thanks for the links.

Isn’t that the grand hope?

It is a false hope. Christianity will not rule the world. The Bible says:

But understand this, that in the last days there will come times of difficulty. For people will be lovers of self, lovers of money, proud, arrogant, abusive, disobedient to their parents, ungrateful, unholy, heartless, unappeasable, slanderous, without self-control, brutal, not loving good, treacherous, reckless, swollen with conceit, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God, having the appearance of godliness, but denying its power. Avoid such people. For among them are those who creep into households and capture weak women, burdened with sins and led astray by various passions, always learning and never able to arrive at a knowledge of the truth. Just as Jannes and Jambres opposed Moses, so these men also oppose the truth, men corrupted in mind and disqualified regarding the faith. But they will not get very far, for their folly will be plain to all, as was that of those two men.
(2 Timothy 3:1-9)

Ryan:

Even Brian Mclaren said at the recent Amaharo conference that Christianity’s aim IS one world religion – only that the religion will be Christianity itself.

No, that is not Christianity’s aim, because that contradicts Scripture. In which session did he say this? I know he was asked to give his opinion on the statement that the story of God had a beginning and is reaching an ending, as much as Christianity had a beginning and is reaching an ending. He went all over the place with this question, but he never denied it. He said: There is a story of human beings understanding God and our understandings of God have changed and need to continue to change as long as our ideas aren’t perfect.” He even used Luther’s name to justify ‘taking another step’. The Reformation was about going back to the Bible, not about stepping away from it like he is doing.

The healing and salvation of societies will only come about by all accepting the Gospel, that’s why we go to the world and preach it.

No. The emergents have many gospels. Shane Hipps said: “You are the message.” Rob Bell said: “You are the gospel.”
The healing and salvation of societies? Where is that in the Bible?

The interfaith religion is a hopeless cause, because it, in itself, will then have to be intolerant of other religions for it to work.

The New Age is an interfaith religion. Everybody get to keep their own faith traditions, but through meditation they realize that all is one and that we are all children of the same God. All religions fit in, except Christianity with its exclusive claims.

If it does come to pass, Jesus will crush it just like He does every other rebellion and apostasy.

This is how He is going to do it at the end:

Then I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse! The one sitting on it is called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he judges and makes war. His eyes are like a flame of fire, and on his head are many diadems, and he has a name written that no one knows but himself. He is clothed in a robe dipped in blood, and the name by which he is called is The Word of God. And the armies of heaven, arrayed in fine linen, white and pure, were following him on white horses. From his mouth comes a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations, and he will rule them with a rod of iron. He will tread the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God the Almighty. On his robe and on his thigh he has a name written, King of kings and Lord of lords. Then I saw an angel standing in the sun, and with a loud voice he called to all the birds that fly directly overhead, “Come, gather for the great supper of God, to eat the flesh of kings, the flesh of captains, the flesh of mighty men, the flesh of horses and their riders, and the flesh of all men, both free and slave, both small and great.” And I saw the beast and the kings of the earth with their armies gathered to make war against him who was sitting on the horse and against his army. And the beast was captured, and with it the false prophet who in its presence had done the signs by which he deceived those who had received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped its image. These two were thrown alive into the lake of fire that burns with sulfur. And the rest were slain by the sword that came from the mouth of him who was sitting on the horse, and all the birds were gorged with their flesh.
(Revelation 19:11-21)

Ryan:

So, in the same vein, salvation is found outside of hyper-fundamentalism but not outside of Christ.

What is your definition of hyper-fundamentalism? And fundamentalism?

just like the Catholics once believed ONLY their beliefs were the ‘only way’.

Once believed? When did they change?

Just because other parts of the body look different doesn’t mean they are not a part of the body.

Only Christians are part of the body of Christ. If you believe that you are the Gospel, then you are not saved and you are not part of the body of Christ.

I’m saying that we all come to Christ by our own roads, but the road OF Christ is only one road. Once you’re on it, the road is the same, but the way you got there may be different simply because of where you were born and such things.

Unless and until you enter through the narrow gate, you are not saved. You are on the road that leads to destruction:

“Enter by the narrow gate. For the gate is wide and the way is easy that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many. For the gate is narrow and the way is hard that leads to life, and those who find it are few.
(Matthew 7:13-14)

Ryan:

We all came to Christ in different ways, but it is true that we came to CHRIST, the genuine Jesus.

The genuine Jesus Christ is the Savior who saves sinners from the wrath of God. The false Jesus of the emergents came to show us the better way to live.

So my final point is we ought to respect those parts of the body of Christ that look different to us, speak different to us, and even think differently to us.

No! How can you say that? Scripture says:

I appeal to you, brothers, to watch out for those who cause divisions and create obstacles contrary to the doctrine that you have been taught; avoid them. For such persons do not serve our Lord Christ, but their own appetites, and by smooth talk and flattery they deceive the hearts of the naive.
(Romans 16:17-18)

Ryan:

Emergents say “Jesus is Lord” so who am I to say they are not a part of the body of Christ?

How can Jesus be Lord if they replace the true Gospel that Christ died for our sins in accordance with the Scriptures, with “You are the Gospel”? As Chris Rosebrough says, we are to compare what they say in the name of God to the Word of God. The Word of God warns:

But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach to you a gospel contrary to the one we preached to you, let him be accursed. As we have said before, so now I say again: If anyone is preaching to you a gospel contrary to the one you received, let him be accursed.
(Galatians 1:8-9)

Go and listen to Chris Rosebrough debunking the false teachings of Rob Bell, Shane Hipps and Brian McLaren and tell me where he is wrong.
Deconstructing Rob Bell’s False Gospel
Shane Hipps’ Sermon at Rob Bell’s Mars Hill Bible Church on the Spiritual Discipline of Silence
Brian McLaren Blames “The Christian Faith” for Colonialism, Racism, Slavery, and Destruction of the Environment

I and ALL born again Christians believe in the Bible, that Jesus Christ, is the way, the truth and the life. We believe in the Gospel of Jesus Christ as He preached it when He walked this earth, to the Holy Spirit written Word of God thereafter.

These are the FUNDAMENTALS of Scripture that ALL born again Christians believe in wholeheartedly:
-The verbal inerrancy of Scripture
-The divinity of Jesus Christ
-The virgin birth
-The substitutionary theory of the atonement
-The physical resurrection and the bodily return of Christ

These are Chad Holtz’s new fundamentals. You and Chad are in Emergent dialogue(agreement) together.
-Jesus Christ is Lord
-Love God and neighbor
-Love justice, seek mercy, walk humbly with our God.
-Christ has died, Christ is risen, Christ will come again.
-Love wins.
See here:

You believe what Brian McLaren has to say:

Brian McLaren:
“What if there are thousands of John Calvins out there…. what if God decided to make a lot of them gay?”
––Brian McLaren, Lecture at Princeton Theological Seminary, Nov. 2005

“I don’t think we’ve got the gospel right yet. What does it mean to be ‘saved’?…. I don’t think the liberals have it right. But I don’t think we have it right either. None of us has arrived at orthodoxy.”
––Brian McLaren, The Emergent Mystique, Christianity Today, 2004

“Tony [Campolo] and I might disagree on the details, but I think we are both trying to find an alternative to both traditional Universalism and the narrow, exclusivist understanding of hell [that unless you explicitly accept and follow Jesus, you are excluded from eternal life with God and destined for hell].”
–Brian McLaren’s Inferno 2, Out of Ur, May 2006

“What if Jesus’ secret message reveals a secret plan?”…. What if he didn’t come to start a new religion–but rather came to start a political, social, religious, artistic, economic, intellectual, and spiritual revolution that would give birth to a new world?”
––Brian McLaren, The Secret Message of Jesus, p. 4

“Frankly, many of us don’t know what we should think about homosexuality. We’ve heard all sides but no position has yet won our confidence so that we can say “it seems good to the Holy Spirit and us.”
–Brian McLaren on the Homosexual Question, Out of Ur, Jan. 2006

Brian McLaren says of Alan Jones’ book Reimagining Christianity:

“…. Alan Jones is a pioneer in reimagining a Christian faith that emerges from authentic spirituality. His work stimulates and encourages me deeply.” (Brian McLaren’s comments on the back flap of Alan Jones’ book Reimagining Christianity where Alan Jones states the following about the Christ’s crucifixion: “The Church’s fixation on the death of Jesus as the universal saving act must end, and the place of the cross must be reimagined in Christian faith. Why? Because of the cult of suffering and the vindictive God behind it.” (p. 132)
“The other thread of just criticism addresses the suggestion implicit in the cross that Jesus’ sacrifice was to appease an angry god. Penal substitution [the Cross] was the name of this vile doctrine.” (p. 168)

Brian McLaren’s endorsement of Steve Chalke and Alan Mann’s book “The Lost Message of Jesus”:

“Steve Chalke’s new book [The Lost Message of Jesus] could help save Jesus from Christianity. That’s a strange way of putting it, I know. Not that the real Jesus needs saving. But when one contrasts the vital portrait of Jesus painted by Steve with the tense caricature drawn so often by modern Christianity, one can’t help but feeling the ‘Jesus’ of modern Christianity is in trouble. The Jesus introduced by Steve in these pages sounds like someone who can truly save us from our trouble”
In this book the authors refer to Christ’s crucifixion on the cross as “a form of cosmic child abuse.” Brian McLaren endorses this book.

“Scripture is something God had ‘let be,’ and so it is at once God’s creation and the creation of the dozens of people and communities and cultures who produced it.”
––Brian McLaren, A Generous Orthodoxy, p. 162

“Perhaps our ‘inward-turned, individual-salvation-oriented, un-adapted Christianity’ is a colossal and tragic misunderstanding, and perhaps we need to listen again for the true song of salvation, which is ‘good news to all creation.’ So perhaps it’s best to suspend what, if anything, you ‘know’ about what it means to call Jesus ‘Savior’ and to give the matter of salvation some fresh attention. Let’s start simply. In the Bible, save means ‘rescue’ or ‘heal’. It emphatically does not mean ‘save from hell’ or ‘give eternal life after death,’ as many preachers seem to imply in sermon after sermon. Rather its meaning varies from passage to passage, but in general, in any context, save means ‘get out of trouble.’ The trouble could be sickness, war, political intrigue, oppression, poverty, imprisonment, or any kind of danger or evil.”
––Brian McLaren, A Generous Orthodoxy, p. 93

“How do you know if something is true?…First, you engage in spiritual practices like prayer, Bible reading, forgiveness, and service. Then you see what happens; you remain open to experience. Finally, you report your experience to others in the field of spirituality for their discernment, to see if they confirm your findings or not.”
––Brian McLaren, A Generous Orthodoxy, p. 199

“The church latched on to that old doctrine of original sin like a dog to a stick, and before you knew it, the whole gospel got twisted around it. Instead of being God’s big message of saving love for the whole world, the gospel became a little bit of secret information on how to solve the pesky legal problem of original sin.”
–Brian McLaren, The Last Word and the Word After That, p.134

“Western Christianity has (for the last few centuries anyway) said relatively little about mindfulness and meditative practices, about which Zen Buddhism has said much. To talk about different things is not to contradict one another; it is, rather, to have much to offer one another, on occasion at least.”
—Brian McLaren, A Generous Orthodoxy, p. 225

“I must add, though, that I don’t believe making disciples must equal making adherents to the Christian religion. It may be advisable in many circumstances to help people become followers of Jesus and remain within their Buddhist, Hindu, or Jewish contexts.”
—Brian McLaren, A Generous Orthodoxy, p. 260

Brian McLaren’s view on how we can “solve” the homosexuality issue within Christianity: No one is allowed to talk about it unless they have enough points:

“10 if you have considered and studied the relevant biblical passages
10 if you have actually read the six passages about homosexuality in the bible
20 if you have read other passages that might affect the way you read those six passages
5 if you have read one or more books that reinforce the position you already hold
25 if you have read one or more books arguing the opposite position
10 if you have spent three hours reading websites showing a variety of views
50 for every friend you have who’s been through an ex-gay ministry
50 for every friend who’s been through an ex-gay ministry that didn’t work
50 for every friend who’s gay and in a long-term committed relationship
50 for every friend who’s gay and not in a committed relationship
50 for every parent you’ve listened to whose child is gay
When you have 3,000 points, you can speak on the issue.”
–Brian McLaren, Generous Orthodoxy Conference: The Gay Forum, 2005

***************
Jesus Christ the Son of God’s message is ALL ABOUT REPENTANCE OF SIN.
***************
The False Christ says there is not such thing as sin – If you can find a message (outside of the Bible) that supports what you think it correct then that’s what the truth is.
***************

It is written:

Luke 13:1-5
1 Now on the same occasion there were some present who reported to Him about the Galileans whose blood Pilate had mixed with their sacrifices.
2 And Jesus said to them, “Do you suppose that these Galileans were greater sinners than all other Galileans because they suffered this fate?
3 “I tell you, no, but unless you repent, you will all likewise perish.
4 “Or do you suppose that those eighteen on whom the tower in Siloam fell and killed them were worse culprits than all the men who live in Jerusalem?
5 “I tell you, no, but unless you repent, you will all likewise perish.”

Romans 3.10-11
As it is written: “There is none righteous, no, not one; there is none who understands; there is none who seeks after God”

Romans 3.23
For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God

Romans 6.23
For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Revelation 20:15
anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.

Isaiah 53:6
All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned, every one, to his own way; and the LORD has laid on Him the iniquity of us all.

Hebrews 9:22
according to the law almost all things are purified with blood, and without shedding of blood there is no remission.

Romans 10:9-10,13
That if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.
For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
For “whoever calls on the name of the LORD shall be saved.”

Acts 3:19
Repent therefore and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out

Acts 4:12
Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.

John 1:12
But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name.

Matthew 7:13-14
13 “Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it.
14 “For the gate is small and the way is narrow that leads to life, and there are few who find it.

Matthew 7:21-23
21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.
22 “Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?’
23 “And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.’

Matthew 10:11-15
11 “And whatever city or village you enter, inquire who is worthy in it, and stay at his house until you leave that city.
12 “As you enter the house, give it your greeting.
13 “If the house is worthy, give it your blessing of peace. But if it is not worthy, take back your blessing of peace.
14 “Whoever does not receive you, nor heed your words, as you go out of that house or that city, shake the dust off your feet.
15 “Truly I say to you, it will be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrah in the day of judgment than for that city.

Matthew 10:16-23
16″Behold, I send you out as sheep in the midst of wolves; so be shrewd as serpents and innocent as doves.
17″But beware of men, for they will hand you over to the courts and scourge you in their synagogues;
18 and you will even be brought before governors and kings for My sake, as a testimony to them and to the Gentiles.
19″But when they hand you over, do not worry about how or what you are to say; for it will be given you in that hour what you are to say.
20″For it is not you who speak, but it is the Spirit of your Father who speaks in you.
21″Brother will betray brother to death, and a father his child; and children will rise up against parents and cause them to be put to death.
22″You will be hated by all because of My name, but it is the one who has endured to the end who will be saved.
23″But whenever they persecute you in one city, flee to the next; for truly I say to you, you will not finish going through the cities of Israel until the Son of Man comes.

Matthew 10:28
28 “Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

Matthew 10:32-39
32″Therefore everyone who confesses Me before men, I will also confess him before My Father who is in heaven.
33″But whoever denies Me before men, I will also deny him before My Father who is in heaven.
34″Do not think that I came to bring peace on the earth; I did not come to bring peace, but a sword.
35″For I came to SET A MAN AGAINST HIS FATHER, AND A DAUGHTER AGAINST HER MOTHER, AND A DAUGHTER-IN-LAW AGAINST HER MOTHER-IN-LAW;
36 and A MAN’S ENEMIES WILL BE THE MEMBERS OF HIS HOUSEHOLD.
37″He who loves father or mother more than Me is not worthy of Me; and he who loves son or daughter more than Me is not worthy of Me.
38″And he who does not take his cross and follow after Me is not worthy of Me.
39″He who has found his life will lose it, and he who has lost his life for My sake will find it.

Jude 1:7
7 just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities around them, since they in the same way as these indulged in gross immorality and went after strange flesh, are exhibited as an example in undergoing the punishment of eternal fire.

2 Peter 2:1-9
1 But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will also be false teachers among you, who will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing swift destruction upon themselves.
2 Many will follow their sensuality, and because of them the way of the truth will be maligned;
3 and in their greed they will exploit you with false words; their judgment from long ago is not idle, and their destruction is not asleep.
4 For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but cast them into hell and committed them to pits of darkness, reserved for judgment;
5 and did not spare the ancient world, but preserved Noah, a preacher of righteousness, with seven others, when He brought a flood upon the world of the ungodly;
6 and if He condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah to destruction by reducing them to ashes, having made them an example to those who would live ungodly lives thereafter;
7 and if He rescued righteous Lot, oppressed by the sensual conduct of unprincipled men
8 (for by what he saw and heard that righteous man, while living among them, felt his righteous soul tormented day after day by their lawless deeds),
9 then the Lord knows how to rescue the godly from temptation, and to keep the unrighteous under punishment for the day of judgment,

But what if ‘one world religion’ is Christianity? In other words, what if we only had one religion (I use the term loosely) in this world, and that religion was Christianity?

Isn’t that the grand hope? Even Brian Mclaren said at the recent Amaharo conference that Christianity’s aim IS one world religion – only that the religion will be Christianity itself. That’s what he said.

You said: “The healing and salvation of societies will not come about by muslims(for example) accepting the gospel. It will come about by a hybrid interfaith religion which appeals to all. Jesus the Son of God will be outside while all think He is inside.”

The healing and salvation of societies will only come about by all accepting the Gospel, that’s why we go to the world and preach it. The interfaith religion is a hopeless cause, because it, in itself, will then have to be intolerant of other religions for it to work. In other words, I think it is a pipe dream and a useless cause and one that will simply not come to pass because its weaknesses are obvious. If it does come to pass, Jesus will crush it just like He does every other rebellion and apostasy.

I’m not denying that apostacy happens or even will happen. But when I talk of ‘balanced’ I am talking within Christianity, not within religion in general. I am agreeing with Luther that salvation is found outside of the Catholic Church, but not outside of Christ. He took a balanced view on that.

So, in the same vein, salvation is found outside of hyper-fundamentalism but not outside of Christ. Salvation is found outside of the views made at this blog, but not outside of Christ.

But DTW herself doesn’t seem to take this view. Rather, she seems to make statements that make me believe she believes salvation is found ONLY within her particular beliefs of Christianity, just like the Catholics once believed ONLY their beliefs were the ‘only way’. How is this exclusive attitude any different to how the catholics saw it? Does DTW have exclusivity on all truth? What if she is only an eye and I am only a toe? Should I say that because I am only a toe I am not a part of the body? Just because other parts of the body look different doesn’t mean they are not a part of the body. (1 Cor 13.)

Salvation is only found in Jesus Christ, the Son of God, but people all have different journeys towards Christ. I’m NOT saying Muslims who worship Allah are worshipping Christ, that Christ and Allah are the same. I’m saying that we all come to Christ by our own roads, but the road OF Christ is only one road. Once you’re on it, the road is the same, but the way you got there may be different simply because of where you were born and such things.

For instance, Paul came to Christ after he saw Him, a vision of Him on the road. Did we all come to Christ that way? No, we didn’t. We all came to Christ in different ways, but it is true that we came to CHRIST, the genuine Jesus.

So my final point is we ought to respect those parts of the body of Christ that look different to us, speak different to us, and even think differently to us. For no one can say “Jesus is Lord” except by the Spirit of God, says the Bible in 1 Cor 13:3. Emergents say “Jesus is Lord” so who am I to say they are not a part of the body of Christ? Shall not the Lord judge His own?

Ryan,

Wikipedia states: “The majority of postmillennialists retain the notion of a final apostasy at the end of human history,”

A minority expects no apostacy.

What we believe about the millenium will not affect what God has planned. It’s probably better not to have a position.

Yet, in the current dispensation we are called to stay in the faith and be watchfull. Warnings of false prophets and false christ etc. For this we have the Scriptures and the Spirit.

Of course I also experience and expext good things from God. The Good News brings good fruit which is a blessing to a fallen world. It’s not somber for God’s children. There is a somber truth though which is prevalent throughout scripture and by the very words of The Lord Jesus. It concerns apostacy, false prophets and a horror end time scenario. It is in line with the reprobate condition of man and the fallen condition of creation. Truth will lead to death. “you will be hated by all nations”. Taking up your cross only means following truth. That’s what brought the death penalty to our Lord.

Ryan, for years many have wondered if there really would be an end time one faith religion and how it would unfold. It’s happening so gradually and ‘automatically’ that it is astounding. Almost unnoticable. Grounds for objection are been taken away by trusted ‘leaders’ who are steering us toward acceptance.

The healing and salvation of societies will not come about by muslims(for example) accepting the gospel. It will come about by a hybrid interfaith religion which appeals to all. Jesus the Son of God will be outside while all think He is inside.

You and I can still commune civilly but as you see the positive increasing I will increasingly see the deception increasing. The deviding line will increase and there will be a time when those consenting of the death of the other will think it is God’s way of dealing with it.

I think history has shown that hard times actually caused people to turn to God so I don’t think it will cause people not to preach the gospel.

The balanced view approach has to include compromise. In most countries on earth you can get arrested for preaching in the street. Yes western countries. Could anyone concieve of that 20 years ago? Still the dominionists think we are taking the world for Christ. There is no way ahead but compromise. That is why God, and christianity is being redefined.

Thanks for the insight, I was not aware of those quotes.

However, we can see how scripture is read differently by people that have given a lot to the church.

For instance, Calvin and Luther were amillenialists (believe they were living in the millenium). Luther moved to historicist (that the prophecies of scripture are slowly being fulfilled). Jonathan Edwards was a post-millenialist. Both of these are pretty positive views. I myself subscribe to post-millenialism right now.

So, I am not going to debate with you about which is right, since you don’t want to, but my point is that people have held different views of this over the centuries and therefore a positive view is not anything new either. If Edwards can hold to a more positive view of the end times why can’t Buchan?

What we have to do is look at the dangers of all the views. While you may say a positive view is dangerous, I say a negative one is dangerous because it can give people an excuse not to preach the Gospel (if Jesus is coming back when things get really BAD, then why should I care when things get bad?). So, once again, we need a BALANCED view.

Ryan,

The positive end time view is extremely deceptive. It is simply not true that the ‘bad scenario’ is a new thing. I have read a lot of things the last 19 years(since being saved). The ‘positive end time scenario’ is something which I hardly ever saw. It is a strange and bizarre concept to me. There are ante Nicene writings which prove that the BAD end time scenario is not new. Example:

“This is the manner of the heavenly kingdom: within the space of its thousand years is comprised the resurrection of the saints, who arise either earlier or later according to their deserts: after which, when the destruction of the world and the fire of judgement have been set in motion, we shall be changed in a moment into angelic substance, by virtue of that supervesture of incorruption, and be translated into that heavenly kingdom….” Tretullian from Justin Martyr, The First Apology III.24.6

But when this Antichrist shall have devastated all things in this world, he will reign for three years and six months, and sit in the temple at Jerusalem; and then the Lord will come from heaven in the clouds, in the glory of the Father, sending this man and those who follow him into the lake of fire; but bringing in for the righteous the times of the kingdom, that is, the rest, the hallowed seventh day; and restoring to Abraham the promised inheritance, in which kingdom the Lord declared, that many coming from the east and from the west should sit down with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.” [Irenaeus: Against Heresies, Book V, XXX]

It is clear that Christ’s kingdom will be set up after the horrors of the tribulation and the antichrist kingdom which will be broken without human hands, according to Daniel.

I really don’t want to debate this and am not going to.

I do want to urge you to consider that the ’emerging’ church have many branches and most prominent is the concept that the times are getting groovy for christians. DANGER! Look at the dominionist doctrine of the NAR. Angus is heading that way. I must warn you that you are treading dangerous ground.

I can quote many scriptures on the end time ‘bad scenario’ but the dominionists normally only quote old testament scriptures out of context. I have spent(reluctantly) hours on Rick Joyners site to look at his dominionist end time stance and can tell you in all honesty that it is fairy tale rubbish. It is unblievable how they contort scripture to agree with them.

I don’t defend any ‘position’ or am part of any ‘school’ or denominational doctrine. So without agenda I urge you to seek the Lord and don’t listen to people but be taught by His Spirit regarding these things.

I visit Deborahs site bacause there are very few in South Africa who challenge the ‘stream’ of end time religion. The Lord has not told me to start a site so I’ll share comments here.

This same Jesus told his followers: do not judge.

Jesus Christ said:

Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day: And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.
(Luke 24:46-47)

So, DTW-thief, let start with the Law. One purpose of the Law is that of a mirror. It shows you how God sees you so that “every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.” (Romans 3:19) Have you ever stolen something? Have you ever dishonoured your parents? Have you ever coveted something that did not belong to you? Jesus Christ said:

“You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall not commit adultery.’ But I say to you that everyone who looks at a woman with lustful intent has already committed adultery with her in his heart.
(Matthew 5:27-28)

Are you an adulterer at heart? He also said:

“You have heard that it was said to those of old, ‘You shall not murder; and whoever murders will be liable to judgment.’ But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother will be liable to judgment; whoever insults his brother will be liable to the council; and whoever says, ‘You fool!’ will be liable to the hell of fire.
(Matthew 5:21-22)

Are you a murderer at heart? If you have broken any of the Ten Commandments, then God will not hold you blameless. He will punish you and give you what you deserve: hell. Good works or good intentions will not save you. You are snakebitten, full of the poison of sin. You are in need of a Saviour who knew no sin. There is Good News for you:

And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, so must the Son of Man be lifted up, that whoever believes in him may have eternal life.
(John 3:14-15)

You are not the Gospel like Rob Bell said and you are not the Message either. This is the Gospel:

For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received: that Christ died for our sins in accordance with the Scriptures, that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day in accordance with the Scriptures,
(1 Corinthians 15:3-4)

The Gospel saves sinners from the righteous judgement and wrath of God.

Also, notice WHO and WHAT Jesus judged severely – the Pharisees

Let’s see:

“Two men went up into the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. The Pharisee, standing by himself, prayed thus: ‘God, I thank you that I am not like other men, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even like this tax collector. I fast twice a week; I give tithes of all that I get.’ But the tax collector, standing far off, would not even lift up his eyes to heaven, but beat his breast, saying, ‘God, be merciful to me, a sinner!’ I tell you, this man went down to his house justified, rather than the other. For everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, but the one who humbles himself will be exalted.”
(Luke 18:10-14)

The Pharisee was judged for exalting himself. He listed his good works as proof of his merit in front of God. He saw no need for a Saviour.

We should constantly thank God for not making us like THEM emergents!

The emergents boast about their ‘good works’ and try to impose the LAW of LOVE on Christians.

Amanda, I LOVE how you quote from Exodus and Psalms to show us who Jesus is!

Jesus Christ said:

You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; and it is they that bear witness about me,
(John 5:39)

DTW3:

My favorite Psalm that speaks to the heart of Jesus is, “Happy shall they be who take your little ones and dash them against the rock!” Psalm 137:9

Amen to Psalm 137. Have you read the others also?

Perhaps you (like me) have cut out that stupid passage in Jeremiah 31:27-34 where God says a new covenant is coming – one where the sins of the parents will no longer be counted against a person but each will be judged for their own sins. Or the part where God says he will forgive their iniquity and remember it no more.

What are you playing at, DTW3? It seems like you object to Psalm 137, but you are accusing me of cutting Jeremiah 31 out of the Bible?

All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness
(2 Timothy 3:16)