Dear Jay Edwards

Please pay close attention to Margaret MacDonald’s vision, she was a Post-tribulationist, compredene? That means you.

I do not give a hoot who endorsed her, and what they think, thought or said, that’s THEIR problem. Just as the Pope is Post-tribulationist must I make it your problem now that he and the Roman Catholic church believes in a post-trib rapture?

Do you see where I am going with this? Are you by any chance a Catholic or its little sister a Calvinist?

The sooner the enemies of the Pretribulation Rapture get their facts in order, the lesser they will make fools of themselves. MacPherson’s writings are filled to the brim with historical quotes and allusions to 19th Century sources, but still hasn’t provided any documented basis for his claims. Unless we invent a time machine that enables us to turn time backwards to tick off in sequential order from 1830 to 1827 (back to the future kind of nonsense), placing the former first and then the latter, MacPherson’s claims are just plain silly. J.N Darby and others (i.e. Pseudo-Ephraem, Morgan Edwards) had already developed various forms of Pretribulationism.

J.N. Darby held a Pretribulation Rapture view as early as Janauary 1827. Margaret MacDonald was a Post-tribulationist. It is not historical pedigree that establishes truth but the inerrant Word of God.

Re Margaret MacDonald, here’s what Dr. F. Nigel Lee stated: “Dave MacPherson, in his various books, has made a major contribution toward vindicating Historic Christian Eschatology. The 1830 innovations of the disturbed Margaret Macdonald documented by MacPherson—-in part or in whole—-immediately spread to Edward Irving and his followers, then to J. N. Darby and Plymouth Brethrenism, and were later popularized by the dispensationalistic Scofield Reference Bible, by Classic Pentecostalism, and by latter-day pretribulationists like J. F. Walvoord and Hal Lindsey.” (Dr. Lee stated this as the holder of nine EARNED doctorates [!] and as Australia’s most eminent evangelical scholar!) Google “X-Raying Margaret,” “Margaret Macdonald’s Main Point” and “Margaret Macdonald’s Rapture Chart” to find out what Dr. Stauffer censored. Stauffer’s “research” failed to notice that even Hal Lindsey calls Margaret a partial rapturist in his book “The Rapture.” And Walvoord’s “The Rapture Question” refers to partial rapturists as “pretribulationists” (p. 105) – pretribs who, in their “rapture charts” see “church” BEFORE the rapture as well as seeing “church” AFTER the rapture; they are “church splitters”! It’s amazing how many pretrib defenders have seized on Margaret’s statement “The trial of the Church is from Antichrist” and then gotten into a tizzy in public while ranting and screaming that “Margaret was a posttrib” or, even worse, that she was demon-possessed or in a trance or that “MacPherson has covered up many before 1830 who clearly taught pretrib”!!! Google “Scholars Weigh My Research” to find out other evangelical leaders who have endorsed MacPherson’s research since 1970. Also Google “Pretrib Rapture Dishonesty,” “Pretrib Hypocrisy,” “Pretrib Rapture Stealth,” “C. I. Scofield’s Hidden Side,” “Famous Rapture Watchers” and “Dr. Watson’s Pretrib Non-Discovery” – just some of the hot articles on the British blog “Wolves in Sheep’s Clothing” hosted by noted teacher Treena Gisborn. BTW, this past July 5th, pretribber Dr. Erwin Lutzer told a packed Moody Church that there are now posttribs as well as pretribs among the MBI personnel, adding “Here at the Moody Church we have decided to not draw a line in the sand about these two views.” (!) But MBI is only reflecting the many worldwide who are now abandoning pretrib for other rapture views – and scary world events are helping to bring about the collapse of the 188-year-old pretrib fantasy!

Bobby,

“That day” does not refer to the Rapture but the seven year tribulation. False teachers were confusing the Thessalonians with their lies that they were already smack bang in the middle of the Great Tribulation because of the many persecutions they suffered. They thought they had missed the Rapture. Paul refuted these lies by telling them that a great falling away which is already rampant in all the churches today, and the appearance and identification of the Antichrist would precede the seven year tribulation. However the Antichrist cannot be revealed until He who restrains him is taken out of the way (from the face of the earth). (2 Thessalonians 2:7) The Holy Spirit is the only Person who has the power to restrain the Antichrist and his diabolical end-time works. Therefore the Body of Christ, indwelt by die Holy Spirit must first be taken out of the way before the Antichrist can be revealed. Your premise that “that day” refers to the Rapture is wrong.

Dear Bobby

You said “First of all, I read the teachings of Paul the Apostle from the Holy Bible, then the Holy Spirit helped me discern this! A direct answer for your mock question.”

It was not a mocking question, I said “As a matter of interest…” If you feel that was a mocking question, then I am sorry but it wasn’t.

You said “Second of all, I did any number of research on this matter, just like any other person, I too searched internet articles and books concerning the issue”

So you did research other’s writing aside from the bible to find the answers to your questions.

I find it very annoying (as anyone would) when people come here and question my beliefs and claim my beliefs to be false and then they themselves get all tied up in a knots when you give the scriptural proof to what the truth is! Then they (you) say things like:

You said “Maybe you think that you’re the only person with gift of discernment, do you?!”

Listen bud, please go else where, your nastiness is not one bit appreciated.

You said “Conclusion: You and the other imminent rapturists must come into a common understanding before confusing others, especially those who lack faith.”

If you lack faith, how on earth and why on earth are you debating the rapture, that is the least of your worries. Focus on the doctrine of salvation Bobby, get that pegged down before you move onto eschatology. The rapture is going to happen no matter what – the question is will you be caught up? (Don’t be upset with me for asking this question, I am asking you a very logical Christian question.)

You said “Check this link http://bibleone.net/print_tbs118.html written by Dr. Thomas Ice, who believes in an imminent/ pre-trib rapture proclaims “that Day” in 2 Thessalonians 2:3. is rapture.”

:ohno: Understand that the rapture takes place right before “the day of the Lord”. It’s wrong to say that ‘the day‘ is the rapture, however it’s correct that the rapture take place RIGHT BEFORE ‘the day of the Lord’ – there by it kick starts ‘the day of the Lord’ into motion.

Now, if you will be nice, you can stay, if you are gonna be nasty again, please leave.

First of all, I read the teachings of Paul the Apostle from the Holy Bible, then the Holy Spirit helped me discern this! A direct answer for your mock question. Second of all, I did any number of research on this matter, just like any other person, I too searched internet articles and books concerning the issue. And I know, mentioning the name of Holy Spirit is pointless because I don’t want to be mocked by you here in your blog. Maybe you think that you’re the only person with gift of discernment, do you?! Anyway, I don’t want to be deceived my man and devil anymore. Check this link http://bibleone.net/print_tbs118.html written by Dr. Thomas Ice, who believes in an imminent/ pre-trib rapture proclaims “that Day” in 2 Thessalonians 2:3. is rapture.
Conclusion: You and the other imminent rapturists must come into a common understanding before confusing others, especially those who lack faith.

Hi Bobby :hi:

2 Thessalonians 2:1-3
1 Now regarding the arrival of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to be with him, we ask you, brothers and sisters,
2 not to be easily shaken from your composure or disturbed by any kind of spirit or message or letter allegedly from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord is already here.
3 Let no one deceive you in any way. For that day will not arrive until the rebellion comes and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction.

“that day” in verse 3 is not the (RAPTURE) as you state, it’s about ‘the day of the Lord’ as the bible states in verse 2. Paul is speaking to the Thessalonians, not about the Rapture, but about ‘the day of the Lord’… the day of the Lord is the time given for the ‘entire 7 year Tribulation and Jesus Christ’s second coming’. Please see this article where I discuss this at length here: https://www.discerningtheworld.com/2012/11/19/jacob-prasch-twisting-scripture-the-midrash-way/

So what 2 Thessalonians 2:3 is saying is this: The Tribulation which will be ‘the day of the Lord” will not start until the apostasy comes first, and Jesus’ Second Coming (when He sets foot on earth – See verse 1) will not take place until after the anti-Christ has been reveal.

Another way to look at it is that, the antichrist will be revealed before ‘the day of the Lord’ (or Tribulation stars) but can only be revealed right after the time of the Rapture.

Again with Matt 24:36 Jesus said, “But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone”

“that day” is “the day of the Lord”

You said “…when [the fig tree’s] branch has already become tender, and puts forth its leaves, you know that summer is near; even so you too, when you see all these things, recognize that He is near, right at the door.”

Totally correct, “the day of the Lord” is almost upon us.

You said “there must come a falling away”….”The bottom line of the bottom line is according to the Scriptures there must come a falling away before the rapture of the saints ”

Yes, it’s been happening to the church for the last several hundred years and culminating into a full blown apostasy right now as all churches unite with Rome. Have you not noticed? 🙂

You said “Holy Spirit helped me discerning the things”

As a matter of interest, tell me who’s teachings did you read first before you discern this?

Holy Spirit helped me discerning the things, and strive to understand the scriptures, but I asked myself doesn’t this contradicts Matt 24:36 Jesus said, “But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone” (Matt. 24:36). Holy Spirit lead me to these verses Romans 11:25 regarding the fullness of the gentiles and Revelation 5:1 regarding the book of judgement sealed with seven seals, where I saw these things are fully controlled and initiated by God our Father alone. However our Lord also says in verses 32-33 prior to verse 36 in the same chapter, “…when [the fig tree’s] branch has already become tender, and puts forth its leaves, you know that summer is near; even so you too, when you see all these things, recognize that He is near, right at the door.” We have seen this right infront of our eyes the reestablishment of Israel into her land in 1948. They took control of Jerusalem in 1967. And, with the turmoil in the Middle East, they are desperate for a peace accord.
The bottom line of the bottom line is according to the Scriptures there must come a falling away before the rapture of the saints and which in 100% impossible according to 2 Thessalonians 2:1-4.

Ginny Grace Mortvedt,

All Christians who are truly saved – Jews and Gentiles – are the light of the world. Perhaps you would like too tell us who are the children of the kingdom?

And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west (GENTILES), and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven. But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth. (Mat 8:11-12)