We are the same age, grew up in the same non Calvinistic church. She married a lost man and will be married 40 years August 18th. I married a saved man and got dumped after 28 years. This coming Sunday, June 16th is Fathers Day in the USA; it would have also been my 40th wedding anniversary. Our parents were non-Calvinist and all of them loved the Lord deeply. We have a rich Christian heritage. Her parents didn’t agree with her Calvinism and told her so. Obviously they didn’t attend the same church in Tennessee. So we grew up pretty much the same. But one of us chose Calvinism and it wasn’t me.

I am sinner saved by grace. I love Jesus Christ more than anything and anyone in this world. Then I love my kids and my grandkids plus what few relatives I have here below heaven. I am not much as far as God’s kingdom is concerned. But I live for Him. I am passionately in love with the Word of God though I can’t express myself eloquently as you and the “Deb-Ster” (she’s the heresy terminator) do. But I know what I believe and why I believe it. I know like the Apostle Paul that I am saved and the Lord keeps me saved. I am persuaded!

His peace to you Tom. Our Savior is simply awesome and most worthy of our Praise!

Thomas Lessing (Watch and Pray / Waak en Bid) wrote:

All true Christians may be deceived in some kind of way but they will never fall away completely into any kind of false teachings. When a Christian is not sure about something he should stand on neutral ground, search the Scriptures and trust the Lord to lead him in the truth (John 16:13). Peter was deceived when he thought he was the cats whiskers and refused to eat with non-Jews but immediately repented when he was warned by Paul.

How can one possibly first believe that sinners are saved through faith in Jesus and his Gospel and then suddenly believe that they are saved because they are the elect? Something is wrong! When Jesus said, “Take heed that no one deceives you” He did not mean that his disciples were going to fall into apostasy. He simply told them to be alert and on their guard for false teachers.

I am not suggesting that your friend is lost. She may be saved, but I am rather surprised that she changed her mind on HOW to be saved. Usually persons who get involved in Calvinism and start to believe that it is the true Gospel, are made to believe that they were never saved and that they should embrace the doctrines of grace (TULIP). So, your friend herself probably believes that she was never saved, but is now saved because she now allegedly has been given true insight into the sovereignty of God – a sovereignty that chooses some to eternal life and some to eternal damnation. I can assure you that she believes that you are not saved because she now believes that faith is not necessary for salvation. Faith, as they say, is a gift given only to the elect AFTER they had been sovereignly and monergistically regenerated by God. That’s blasphemy.

Someone once told me that Christians are allowed to become angry but only when Jesus and his doctrines are being twisted, compromised and misrepresented. Hence, your anger was justified. The reason why I suggested that you apologize was not to show timidity in the face of adversity but that you may have an open door to her. We must always be ready to help those who have fallen prey to false teachers.

My brothers, if anyone among you wanders from the truth and someone brings him back, let him know that whoever brings back a sinner from his wandering will save his soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins.” (James 5:19-20)

Perhaps you could ask her how she received forgiveness for her sins. Listen carefully to what she says. Or perhaps you could even ask her whether she thought she was already saved before she embraced the doctrines of TULIP.

If she refuses to listen, then it’s time to leave her to her own beliefs and devices. There comes a time when we must remain silent and that time is when those you warn are adamant and obstinate to listen to you and heed your warnings. It is sad but there’s nothing you can do about it, accept to pray for her.

I told her that I was really surprised that she didn’t have this issue settled. I showed her a statement from Calvin that he didn’t believe in the Millennial reign of Jesus Christ.

She and I grew up in the suburbs of Detroit, Michigan where there were a lot of Catholic Churches. I am just amazed that Calvinists believe everything Calvin wrote. He remained Catholic in his theology. I don’t get it. I don’t even find anything in Calvinism that is appealing. God is Sovereign. I don’t have to be a Calvinist to believe that. God has “foreknowledge”. Duh…ya think? Our God knows who will and who won’t be saved. I know that I am predestined…to be conformed into the image of the Son of God. I don’t have to be Calvinist to believe that. All of the Saved are chosen. We are chosen for service for the Lord. We are to do what ever He equips us to do.

I guess I’m still dumb…..Praise God!

Deborah (Discerning the World) wrote:

Sharon

>> Calvinists can’t even decide when the rapture takes place. Pre-Trib? Mid-Trib? Post-Trib? Calvinism just robs the poor believers in it.

Gets worse, many don’t even believe in any of that and are amillennial and don’t even believe in a tribulation or an antichrist. John Calvin believed in Amillennialism as do the Roman Catholic Church

Sharon

>> Calvinists can’t even decide when the rapture takes place. Pre-Trib? Mid-Trib? Post-Trib? Calvinism just robs the poor believers in it.

Gets worse, many don’t even believe in any of that and are amillennial and don’t even believe in a tribulation or an antichrist. John Calvin believed in Amillennialism as do the Roman Catholic Church

That is the same attitude I have experienced from Calvinist. They are “special” because their “election” was before the foundation of the world.” They just deem us poor non-Calvinists as just not quite spiritual enough to “understand.” Oh, I understand alright. I know that Calvinism mocks the God I know and love. My God not only loves, He is love. He is not happy when the wicked perish.

Ezekiel 18:32 For I have no pleasure in the death of him that dieth, saith the Lord GOD: wherefore turn yourselves, and live ye.
Ezekiel 33:11 Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?

Calvinists don’t like those verses. Why don’t you know that God predestines some to hell for His pleasure and glory? Not according to the Word of God. The more I study Calvinism, the more I hate it. Calvinism defames our Savior. Calvinism is no friend to evangelism. Calvinism is a poor sorry excuse and a 3rd rate “gospel.” Calvinists can’t even decide when the rapture takes place. Pre-Trib? Mid-Trib? Post-Trib? Calvinism just robs the poor believers in it.

Guess I’m just too dumb to understand. Thank God I’m dumb. :o)

Deborah (Discerning the World) wrote:

Sharon

>> You become the elect the moment you get saved.

That’s it.

I so wish Calvinsts would understand important detail.

Romans 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

1st we, the saved, are predestined to be CONFORMED TO THE IMAGE OF HIS SON! Paul was speaking to saved people. While we were created in God’s image, sin left us tainted and God could not look upon us because of our sin. But when we received Jesus as our Savior and Lord, our sin was then atoned for by the precious blood of Jesus. God now looks at us and when He does, he sees the blood of His only Begotten son. At the moment we are saved our growing in Christ process began. I am still being conformed and will continue to be so until I draw my last breath.

2. Chosen. What is it to be chosen? We are chosen to SERVICE, not salvation. God has blessed ALL of His children with certain spiritual gifts. Some have been chosen to do what we would call “great works.” Some have been chosen for “small works.” All are important. I imagined once that if God were to name the Greatest Christian of all the ages, who would it be? It may be someone with a very public and successful ministry. But then, it may be that little lady whose talent was to pray, or clean the bathrooms at the church. It might be some missionary that gave his whole life on a mission field and received no recognition here. What ever our spiritual gifts and talents we have been CHOSEN by our Lord to serve others, and serve Him.

A Calvinist I know says that after becoming a Calvinist she experienced freedom in Christ like she had never known before. I replied with this verse: John 8:36 If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.

In the world of Christianity I know nothing that produces more arrogance, pride and hurt than Calvinism.

I want to ask this Calvinist woman, “when you witness to someone, do you lie to them when you say that God loved them so much that He gave His Son to atone for their sins? I wonder if she witnesses to anyone? Hmmmmm

Deborah (Discerning the World) wrote:

Sharon

>> You become the elect the moment you get saved.

That’s it.

I so wish Calvinsts would understand important detail.

Sharon

>> You become the elect the moment you get saved.

That’s it.

I so wish Calvinsts would understand important detail.

I will continue to pray. It is in God’s hands.

Deborah (Discerning the World) wrote:

Sharon

The best thing you can do for your friend is pray for her and pray for her long and hard that she comes to see the truth of this horrible doctrine she is following. God is the only one that can turn this situation around. So pray. 🙂

Sharon

The best thing you can do for your friend is pray for her and pray for her long and hard that she comes to see the truth of this horrible doctrine she is following. God is the only one that can turn this situation around. So pray. 🙂

All true Christians may be deceived in some kind of way but they will never fall away completely into any kind of false teachings. When a Christian is not sure about something he should stand on neutral ground, search the Scriptures and trust the Lord to lead him in the truth (John 16:13). Peter was deceived when he thought he was the cats whiskers and refused to eat with non-Jews but immediately repented when he was warned by Paul.

How can one possibly first believe that sinners are saved through faith in Jesus and his Gospel and then suddenly believe that they are saved because they are the elect? Something is wrong! When Jesus said, “Take heed that no one deceives you” He did not mean that his disciples were going to fall into apostasy. He simply told them to be alert and on their guard for false teachers.

I am not suggesting that your friend is lost. She may be saved, but I am rather surprised that she changed her mind on HOW to be saved. Usually persons who get involved in Calvinism and start to believe that it is the true Gospel, are made to believe that they were never saved and that they should embrace the doctrines of grace (TULIP). So, your friend herself probably believes that she was never saved, but is now saved because she now allegedly has been given true insight into the sovereignty of God – a sovereignty that chooses some to eternal life and some to eternal damnation. I can assure you that she believes that you are not saved because she now believes that faith is not necessary for salvation. Faith, as they say, is a gift given only to the elect AFTER they had been sovereignly and monergistically regenerated by God. That’s blasphemy.

Someone once told me that Christians are allowed to become angry but only when Jesus and his doctrines are being twisted, compromised and misrepresented. Hence, your anger was justified. The reason why I suggested that you apologize was not to show timidity in the face of adversity but that you may have an open door to her. We must always be ready to help those who have fallen prey to false teachers.

My brothers, if anyone among you wanders from the truth and someone brings him back, let him know that whoever brings back a sinner from his wandering will save his soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins.” (James 5:19-20)

Perhaps you could ask her how she received forgiveness for her sins. Listen carefully to what she says. Or perhaps you could even ask her whether she thought she was already saved before she embraced the doctrines of TULIP.

If she refuses to listen, then it’s time to leave her to her own beliefs and devices. There comes a time when we must remain silent and that time is when those you warn are adamant and obstinate to listen to you and heed your warnings. It is sad but there’s nothing you can do about it, accept to pray for her.

God has many disobedient children. Some of them truly don’t “act saved.” But can I say for certain that they’re not saved? No, I cannot and neither can you. Salvation is a personal relationship between the believer and our Savior. There are also a lot of folks out there that are basically good people and behave better than some saved people I know. But can I then just assume they must be saved because they are such a sweet, kindhearted and respectable person? No, I cannot assume that.

Squeeze and lemon hard enough it’s contents will come out. The same is true of a Christian going through testing. Squeeze me hard enough and what is in me will come out…so to speak. :o) I got squeezed concerning the Calvinism issue between my friend and I. What I said to her was not wrong. It was the way I said it.

Galations 6:10 As we have therefore opportunity, let us do good unto all men, especially unto them who are of the household of faith.

Perhaps it was good to call out the false teaching and I am not afraid to do so, but my attitude was not doing good to a sister in Christ Jesus.

I am divorced after 28 years of marriage. 13 years ago “he” wanted out. After the last three years of my marriage and being told I was stupid, would never make it is the real world…etc I sat out to prove that I am not stupid. Nothing rocked my faith like my divorce. But it made me a stronger Christian in the long run. It took me awhile to find my own identity. I had always been either my parents daughter or Mrs. E. When I was no longer Mrs. E I found out what I was made of. A cousin reminded me that I was a Griffith woman. That meant my faith in the Lord was strong and that the women in my family had to be strong to tolerate some of the Griffith men! ;O)

Since I gave up going to college because I was in love waaayyyyy back in the 70’s I had little to fall back on when my marriage ended abruptly. I took a few college courses but never got a degree. There was one area in my life that God impressed on me at around the age of 14 and that was my love for the Word of God. It took me awhile to regain my footing after the divorce. I hit a couple of rocky paths but in the long run that me stronger too. My lack of education shows, but I hope my love for King Jesus shines much brighter. Are we not His ambassadors? How does an ambassador behave? Do we launch attacks against our brothers and sisters in Christ even if we are right? Does exposing error have to always be done harshly? Because of my anger at Calvinism I turned that anger onto my best friend. How much influence do you think I had because of my tirade?

I heard a preacher say once, it is ok to fight the fight, but is the hill you’re fighting on worth dying on? If it is then fight with all you have in you. But if this skirmish is not worth dying for then let it go. There will be other battles. We true Christians in the days ahead are going to have to have a great amount of courage. I see things happening here in the USA that are frightening…especially when you have grandchildren growing up in such a time as this. Perhaps like Esther, we all have been born for just such a time as this.

His peace to you Thomas.

Thomas Lessing (Watch and Pray / Waak en Bid) wrote:

Sharon wrote:

When falsehood is revealed it usually is not liked. I don’t like being lied about and I have been called some very disgusting things. I take things like that very hard. Perhaps it’s a form of pride.

If you don’t like to be lied about, think how much God the God of Truth must hate to be lied about. It is not just a form of pride. It is pride. Humility begin with teachability. If we don’t have a teachable spirit, we’re not humble. But that does not mean we should timidly accept everything we are taught as the truth. We should search the Scriptures to see whether it is true. So let’s search the Scriptures to see whether your next statement is true.

Sharon wrote:

But I can’t state for a fact that someone is saved or lost.

If the doctrine of salvation is the central theme of the Bible, and I’m sure you will agree that it is, then we dare not tamper with it. And if we do, we are playing with the eternal souls of people. That’s why John wrote:

Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son. (2 John 1:9)

Not to have God means not to be saved.

And that’s why Paul wrote:

But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. (Gal 1:8)

Would you say Calvinism preaches the Gospel? If it does, then shout Hallelujah; if it doesn’t then it should be anathematized.