Carolyn

You come onto this site to tell us that you are right and we are wrong, however when inform you with scripture that your thinking is not correct you get all huffy and puffy and try blow DTW down. Amazing…

Carry on doing good works trying to secure your salvation….ok…. and when you think you have lost your salvation please let us know the time, date and what you did to lose it.

Carolyn wrote

Would it be possible to talk without using put-downs?

I find it rather interesting that you should accuse me of putting you down when you unscrupulously put down Jesus and his truth.

Your words have been strong and hard against Me, says the Lord. Yet you say, What have we spoken against You? (Mal 3:13)

Yes, I love John 10:27-30 AND Hebrews 7:25 AND 2 Corinthians 1:20-24 AND Philippians 1:4-6 and many other verses that prove to me that a saint cannot lose his salvation.

I just love your “if” in “And finally, Christ has secured my salvation if I continue in the faith and do not decide tomorrow that I would rather serve a different Jesus.” Your conditional “if” places you in a works-based salvation. What you are saying in effect is, “Jesus has secured my salvation but his security is incumbent on my performance and track record.” If you should decide to follow a different Jesus you cannot claim to having been saved. I can prove it to you from Scripture.

For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death. (2 Co 7:10).

The Amplified Bible says it thus.

For godly grief and the pain God is permitted to direct, produce a repentance that leads and contributes to salvation and deliverance from evil, and it never brings regret; but worldly grief (the hopeless sorrow that is characteristic of the pagan world) is deadly [breeding and ending in death].

And by the way, tests and trials have absolutely nothing to do with the loss of salvation, not even close.

And with that I close my case.

I guess there is only one way of looking at this…your way. You talk down to me because you think I’m too simple minded to grasp the truth with the same understanding you do. You accuse me of compromising the truth. I could accuse you of misinterpreting it.

Would it be possible to talk without using put-downs?

The literal and plain speech of the Bible has not gone through a process of OSAS teaching in my background or brain. I have no conflict with the Bible. I just believe what it says. I’m not fearful that it will not back up my own agenda because I have none.

On sites like yours, where there is an agenda, be it Calvinism or New Age or Purpose Driven or Emergent or Zionism, WoF, NAR, ad infinitum. if someone like myself doesn’t go along with their agenda, there is an angry response. That to me is a red flag that the issue has been set above the Word of God in it’s fundamental simplicity of believing in Christ.

This is your favourite verse…John 10:27…I know you love that verse but I don’t quote it out fear of losing my salvation. It’s testimony to Christ’s power to save and keep.

God is faithful…but we still go through tests and trials. Is that necessary if we can’t end up in unbelief? Yes, my friend, there are dangers on the road…unbelief, deception, lust, etc. If they weren’t dangers, why bother mentioning them. But if we stay in the Word and prayer, we will be kept safe.
Hebrews 3:12Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God. 13But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. 14For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;

15While it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation.

And finally, Christ has secured my salvation if I continue in the faith and do not decide tomorrow that I would rather serve a different Jesus.
(which I’m not likely to do being this far along the road…my faith has been tested and retested and I can attest to the fact that it is genuine)/

Carolyn,

If you believe the whole counsel of God, as you say, then you must also believe that his Word can never contradict itself. Your view that a saint can lose his salvation contradicts Jesus Christ’s words in John 10:27-30. That’s not believing the whole counsel of God. That’s making Jesus Christ a liar. We dare not give and take when it comes to the doctrine of salvation. Either the one is right and the other one wrong. You cannot have two contradictory truths in regard to the doctrine of salvation or anything else in the Bible, for that matter. The Bible is not a book of contradictions which make up the whole counsel of God.

With due respect Carolyn, age has nothing to do with being correct or incorrect. Is presenting the truth to you a way of talking down to you? Don’t be silly. If you had quoted Scripture in context you would never have said that John 10:27-30 together with all the other relevant passages in Scripture – which you believe prove that one can lose his salvation – make up the whole counsel of God. God is not a liar or a schizophrenic who says one thing in one instance and another thing in another instance. God is consistent. Don’t you know that? And if you think in saying so is talking down to you, let me remind you what the Word of God (in context) says.

God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good? (Numbers 23:19)

You are suggesting that Jesus Christ cannot make good (fulfill) the magnanimous work of salvation He (not you or I or anyone else) started in you because He is not to be trusted. Paul was confident that He can do it. Why not you?

Always in every prayer of mine for you all making request with joy, For your fellowship in the gospel from the first day until now; Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ: (Philippians 1:4-6)

But this man, because he continueth ever, hath an unchangeable priesthood. Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them. (Hebrews 7:24-25)

I would have thought that pursuing the truth and proclaiming it forthright is indeed a pleasant exchange for the sake of Christ. Compromising the truth is definitely NOT for the sake of Christ. If you think so it may be best for you to leave, as you yourself have said.

The doctrine that one can lose his/her salvation is heresy. Indeed, it is one of the worst kind of heresies because it demeans Christ and his finished work on the cross as well as his magnanimous promises in John 10:27-30, Numbers 23:19 and Philippians 1:4-6. And that, my dear, is the whole counsel of God.

To know the voice of Jesus is to believe what He said. The doctrine that a saint can lose his/her salvation, is not the voice of Jesus. It is the voice of another Jesus. And if perchance you may again think I am talking down to you, allow me to remind you what the Word of God says – which you acknowledge is the whole counsel of God.

But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ. For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him. (2 Corinthians 11:3-4)

Please tell me, Carolyn, are you going to lose your salvation? If not, then who is the one who secures your salvation – you or Jesus Christ?

My testimony is as Martha’s …John 11:25Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: 26And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this? 27She saith unto him, Yea, Lord: I believe that thou art the Christ, the Son of God, which should come into the world.

I also do not like arguing but discussion can be good. When one person feels he has the ultimate corner on the truth i.e. OSAS doctrine and there’s no room for a respectful give and take, then something is wrong. I’ve been around for 60 years and seen quite a bit. So when you talk down to me, it’s not appreciated. If I was talking heresy…there might be cause for alarm or cause for a stern rebuke, but I am quoting Scripture in context. I rest my case…and take my leave. I wish it could have been a more pleasant exchange for Christ’s sake.

Carolyn,

The parable of the sower and the seed proves what I had said in my previous comment. First of all, the argument that God alone can discern whether someone is truly saved or not because He alone sees the heart, is not true. The apostle Peter attests to this when he says,

But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear. (1 Peter 3:15)

I never ask a person, “Do you believe in Jesus?” because even the devils believe and they tremble. I ask them, “Would you mind telling me how you were saved?” Of course we cannot see the heart but we can discern weather someone is saved or not when they bare their hearts to us by word of their testimonies. I have noticed in most cases the person would say, “I was baptized by immersion in water and immediately spoke in tongues” or “I was slain in the spirit and Jesus appeared to me while I lay on the floor. When I got up I was saved” or “I felt a very warm tinge like fire going through me when the pastor lay his hands on me and since then I have stopped using drugs.” These are but a few examples of testimonies people give when you ask them to tell you how they were saved. Do you really think because God alone knows the heart, He alone can know who is saved or not when people present you with these kinds of testimonies? Peter would never have encouraged us to give our testimonies of how we were saved if God alone knew the heart.

The notion that God alone knows the heart and therefore He alone knows who is saved or not leads to universalism.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lCgpUPHkgc8&hd=1

You are nowhere near in proving that Matthew 13:19-23 states that a saint can lose his salvation. In fact, it proves that those who hear the Gospel and do not respond in genuine faith to it are/were never saved. Surely you must know that those who seek God with all their heart will find Him and not those who superficially hear and understand the Gospel. Yes, they may respond to it superficially but they have no root in them and the seed sowed withers and dies. They have no root in them which means their hearts have not been changed. By “superficially” I mean something like, “Wow, if I give Jesus my heart He will give me everything I desire because He wants mew to prosper financially.” This is just an example but explains what I mean by superficially. The question is, does someone who responded in this way understand the Gospel? I don’t think so. Is he saved? I don’t think so?

Again 2 Peter 2:20-21 does not prove that a genuinely saved person can lose his salvation. To answer your question we need to go to the book of Romans.

For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness; Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. (Romans 1:18-19)

Every single person knows there is a God, whether he’s an atheist or not. They KNOW because God has revealed it to them; for God has showed it unto them.” This is just another way of saying the seed (rudiments of the Gospel which is that God exists) is sown in ALL OF MANKIND’S HEARTS. Now! – either we believe this is true or we don’t. The reason why God reveals himself to ALL MEN in this way is that they should seek Him. Let us go to Acts 17.

And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation; That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us (Act 17:26-27)

Peter refers to those who have come to escape the pollution of the world through a KNOWLEDGE of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. I have already cited an example where someone escaped the pollution of drug abuse when he heard the rudiments of the Gospel message but was actually never saved.

Verse 20 and 21 of 2 Peter 2 refer to false teachers and their followers who had available to them sufficient knowledge of the Lord Jesus Christ in order to be saved. However, when they rejected this knowledge their end was deeper corruption (again entangled in it and overcome) and presumably a more severe degree of punishment. They would have been better off if they had never come to know the Gospel, the way of righteousness and the sacred (holy commandment (i.e. the apostolic message of salvation) than to have known the truth and deliberately violated it.

The bottom-line is: THEY WERE NEVER SAVED.

By the way, why don’t you believe what Jesus says in John 10:27-30? Are you also rejecting his truth?

I really don’t want to argue with you all day. Whoever rejects the truth in John 10:27-30 will probably never accept the truth.

Matthew 13:19When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth it not, then cometh the wicked one, and catcheth away that which was sown in his heart. This is he which received seed by the way side. 20But he that received the seed into stony places, the same is he that heareth the word, and anon with joy receiveth it; 21Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended. 22He also that received seed among the thorns is he that heareth the word; and the care of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, choke the word, and he becometh unfruitful. 23But he that received seed into the good ground is he that heareth the word, and understandeth it; which also beareth fruit, and bringeth forth, some an hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.

What do you do with verse 20 and 21 in the passage below?
2 Timothy 4: 3For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; 4And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.
2 Peter 2: 18For when they speak great swelling words of vanity, they allure through the lusts of the flesh, through much wantonness, those that were clean escaped from them who live in error. 19While they promise them liberty, they themselves are the servants of corruption: for of whom a man is overcome, of the same is he brought in bondage. 20For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning. 21For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them. 22But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.

Carolyn,

Colossians 1:23: Paul never doubted that they would continue in their faith. He affirmed that they would never lose their salvation because they had a settled faith – established (i.e. grounded” like a building on a strong foundation) and firm (hedraioi, “seated or settled”; they would never regret their salvation 2 Corinthians 7 :10). Those who move away from the faith never had a settled faith but in fact a false faith. Paul is making a distinction between a settled or well-grounded faith and a false faith. He is not saying that a saint can lose his/her salvation. If that were true he would have contradicted Jesus Christ who said,

My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father’s hand. I and my Father are one. (John 10:27-30)

Those who believe they can pluck themselves out of God’s hands are boasting that they are greater and mightier than God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit.

The many you know who have turned away from the faith were never truly saved. Yes, they accepted the Christian faith in the same way Constantine and many others accepted the Christian faith but they were never saved. Read here.

John 8:31: Jesus did not say saints can lose their salvation. Many Jews paid attention to Jesus’ words without necessarily committing themselves to Him personally (cf. 6:53). It was possible to “believe” in the message of repentance and the coming kingdom without being born again. Continuing in the truth is a sign of true repentance and salvation. Many people believe in the death, resurrection and ascencion of Jesus Christ – like the Roman Catholics – but are they really saved? Calvinists believe in the death, resurrection and ascencion of Jesus Christ but are they saved?

I am very pleased to hear you are not a Calvinist.

I think many today have moved away from the gospel into the Contemplative, New Age, Witchcraft, Mysticism, Gnosticism, etc. etc. that has infiltrated the churches. There has been a great falling away from the faith.

Jesus says in John 8…”if” you continue in my Word. And again in John 15…if you abide in me and my words abide in you. I know we can argue the semantics but I know many personally that have begun in the Word and were deceived and have turned to a different Jesus. They have believed things like personal divinity, universalism and have exalted mystical experience above his Word.

I’m definitely NOT a Calvinist. That is a defamation of the character of God. God has chosen to give us a choice. “If” we choose him, and continue by faith, to believe his Word, he will be faithful to the end. God is a God of love, faithful to his promises. The whole TULIP doctrine creates a false God proving him to be unjust and unfair, although the average Calvinist would shrilly deny such a thing. I’ve never bought into that program, even though I did land in their camp for a bit. I was an unwitting fly…which managed to escape unscathed!

Carolyn, I can’t remember whether I asked you before but are you a Calvinist?