<?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-8"?><rss version="2.0"
	xmlns:content="http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/content/"
	xmlns:dc="http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/"
	xmlns:atom="http://www.w3.org/2005/Atom"
	xmlns:sy="http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/syndication/"
	
	>
<channel>
	<title>
	Comments on: Not Wrath, but Rapture &#8211; Will the Church Participate in the Great Tribulation?	</title>
	<atom:link href="https://www.discerningtheworld.com/2012/10/02/not-wrath-but-rapture-will-the-church-participate-in-the-great-tribulation/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>https://www.discerningtheworld.com/2012/10/02/not-wrath-but-rapture-will-the-church-participate-in-the-great-tribulation/</link>
	<description>Discerning Biblical Answers for Christians in Todays World</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Fri, 27 Sep 2024 01:47:01 +0000</lastBuildDate>
	<sy:updatePeriod>
	hourly	</sy:updatePeriod>
	<sy:updateFrequency>
	1	</sy:updateFrequency>
	<generator>https://wordpress.org/?v=6.9.1</generator>
	<item>
		<title>
		By: Bill		</title>
		<link>https://www.discerningtheworld.com/2012/10/02/not-wrath-but-rapture-will-the-church-participate-in-the-great-tribulation/#comment-504465</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Bill]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 27 Sep 2024 01:47:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.discerningtheworld.com/?p=11289#comment-504465</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[The results are without doubt! The results crystal clear. The Church references  disappear and only the Warth continues, then it disappears, and the Church comes back.  The Wraths start at rev. 6:16-17  in Revelation. The Church reference disappears at Revelation 3:22.  The first Rapture starts at Revelation 6:16-17. The Second at 14:14-17.  That&#039;s right two. Both are one . The first by Paul and second by John.

Bible results for “church” from 
King James Version.

Revelation 1:4
John to the seven churches which are in Asia: Grace be unto you, and peace, from him which is, and which was, and which is to come; and from the seven Spirits which are before his throne;
  
Revelation 1:11
Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea.
  
Revelation 1:20
The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches.
  
Revelation 2:1
Unto the angel of the church of Ephesus write; These things saith he that holdeth the seven stars in his right hand, who walketh in the midst of the seven golden candlesticks;
  
Revelation 2:7
He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.
  
Revelation 2:8
And unto the angel of the church in Smyrna write; These things saith the first and the last, which was dead, and is alive;
  
Revelation 2:11
He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.
  
Revelation 2:12
And to the angel of the church in Pergamos write; These things saith he which hath the sharp sword with two edges;
  
Revelation 2:17
He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the hidden manna, and will give him a white stone, and in the stone a new name written, which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth it.
  
Revelation 2:18
And unto the angel of the church in Thyatira write; These things saith the Son of God, who hath his eyes like unto a flame of fire, and his feet are like fine brass;
  
Revelation 2:23
And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works.
  
Revelation 2:29
He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.
  
Revelation 3:1
And unto the angel of the church in Sardis write; These things saith he that hath the seven Spirits of God, and the seven stars; I know thy works, that thou hast a name that thou livest, and art dead.
  
Revelation 3:6
He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.
  
Revelation 3:7
And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write; These things saith he that is holy, he that is true, he that hath the key of David, he that openeth, and no man shutteth; and shutteth, and no man openeth;
  
Revelation 3:13
He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.
  
Revelation 3:14
And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;
  
Revelation 3:22
He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.
  
Revelation 22:16
I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.

--------------------------------

Bible results for “wrath” from 
New King James Version.
Results 1-14. 

Revelation 6:16
and said to the mountains and rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of Him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb!
  
Revelation 6:17
For the great day of His wrath has come, and who is able to stand?”
  
Revelation 11:18
The nations were angry, and Your wrath has come, And the time of the dead, that they should be judged, And that You should reward Your servants the prophets and the saints, And those who fear Your name, small and great, And should destroy those who destroy the earth.”
  
Revelation 12:12
Therefore rejoice, O heavens, and you who dwell in them! Woe to the inhabitants of the earth and the sea! For the devil has come down to you, having great wrath, because he knows that he has a short time.”
  
Revelation 14:8
And another angel followed, saying, “Babylon is fallen, is fallen, that great city, because she has made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication.”
  
Revelation 14:10
he himself shall also drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out full strength into the cup of His indignation. He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb.
  
Revelation 14:17
Reaping the Grapes of Wrath
Then another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.
  
Revelation 14:19
So the angel thrust his sickle into the earth and gathered the vine of the earth, and threw it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.
  
Revelation 15:1
Prelude to the Bowl Judgments
Then I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvelous: seven angels having the seven last plagues, for in them the wrath of God is complete.
  
Revelation 15:7
Then one of the four living creatures gave to the seven angels seven golden bowls full of the wrath of God who lives forever and ever.
  
Revelation 16:1
The Seven Bowls
Then I heard a loud voice from the temple saying to the seven angels, “Go and pour out the bowls of the wrath of God on the earth.”
  
Revelation 16:19
Now the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell. And great Babylon was remembered before God, to give her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of His wrath.
  
Revelation 18:3
For all the nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her, and the merchants of the earth have become rich through the abundance of her luxury.”
  
Revelation 19:15
Now out of His mouth goes a sharp sword, that with it He should strike the nations. And He Himself will rule them with a rod of iron. He Himself treads the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The results are without doubt! The results crystal clear. The Church references  disappear and only the Warth continues, then it disappears, and the Church comes back.  The Wraths start at rev. 6:16-17  in Revelation. The Church reference disappears at Revelation 3:22.  The first Rapture starts at Revelation 6:16-17. The Second at 14:14-17.  That&#8217;s right two. Both are one . The first by Paul and second by John.</p>
<p>Bible results for “church” from<br />
King James Version.</p>
<p>Revelation 1:4<br />
John to the seven churches which are in Asia: Grace be unto you, and peace, from him which is, and which was, and which is to come; and from the seven Spirits which are before his throne;</p>
<p>Revelation 1:11<br />
Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea.</p>
<p>Revelation 1:20<br />
The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches.</p>
<p>Revelation 2:1<br />
Unto the angel of the church of Ephesus write; These things saith he that holdeth the seven stars in his right hand, who walketh in the midst of the seven golden candlesticks;</p>
<p>Revelation 2:7<br />
He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.</p>
<p>Revelation 2:8<br />
And unto the angel of the church in Smyrna write; These things saith the first and the last, which was dead, and is alive;</p>
<p>Revelation 2:11<br />
He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.</p>
<p>Revelation 2:12<br />
And to the angel of the church in Pergamos write; These things saith he which hath the sharp sword with two edges;</p>
<p>Revelation 2:17<br />
He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the hidden manna, and will give him a white stone, and in the stone a new name written, which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth it.</p>
<p>Revelation 2:18<br />
And unto the angel of the church in Thyatira write; These things saith the Son of God, who hath his eyes like unto a flame of fire, and his feet are like fine brass;</p>
<p>Revelation 2:23<br />
And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works.</p>
<p>Revelation 2:29<br />
He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.</p>
<p>Revelation 3:1<br />
And unto the angel of the church in Sardis write; These things saith he that hath the seven Spirits of God, and the seven stars; I know thy works, that thou hast a name that thou livest, and art dead.</p>
<p>Revelation 3:6<br />
He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.</p>
<p>Revelation 3:7<br />
And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write; These things saith he that is holy, he that is true, he that hath the key of David, he that openeth, and no man shutteth; and shutteth, and no man openeth;</p>
<p>Revelation 3:13<br />
He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.</p>
<p>Revelation 3:14<br />
And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;</p>
<p>Revelation 3:22<br />
He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.</p>
<p>Revelation 22:16<br />
I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.</p>
<p>&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8211;</p>
<p>Bible results for “wrath” from<br />
New King James Version.<br />
Results 1-14. </p>
<p>Revelation 6:16<br />
and said to the mountains and rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of Him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb!</p>
<p>Revelation 6:17<br />
For the great day of His wrath has come, and who is able to stand?”</p>
<p>Revelation 11:18<br />
The nations were angry, and Your wrath has come, And the time of the dead, that they should be judged, And that You should reward Your servants the prophets and the saints, And those who fear Your name, small and great, And should destroy those who destroy the earth.”</p>
<p>Revelation 12:12<br />
Therefore rejoice, O heavens, and you who dwell in them! Woe to the inhabitants of the earth and the sea! For the devil has come down to you, having great wrath, because he knows that he has a short time.”</p>
<p>Revelation 14:8<br />
And another angel followed, saying, “Babylon is fallen, is fallen, that great city, because she has made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication.”</p>
<p>Revelation 14:10<br />
he himself shall also drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out full strength into the cup of His indignation. He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb.</p>
<p>Revelation 14:17<br />
Reaping the Grapes of Wrath<br />
Then another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.</p>
<p>Revelation 14:19<br />
So the angel thrust his sickle into the earth and gathered the vine of the earth, and threw it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.</p>
<p>Revelation 15:1<br />
Prelude to the Bowl Judgments<br />
Then I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvelous: seven angels having the seven last plagues, for in them the wrath of God is complete.</p>
<p>Revelation 15:7<br />
Then one of the four living creatures gave to the seven angels seven golden bowls full of the wrath of God who lives forever and ever.</p>
<p>Revelation 16:1<br />
The Seven Bowls<br />
Then I heard a loud voice from the temple saying to the seven angels, “Go and pour out the bowls of the wrath of God on the earth.”</p>
<p>Revelation 16:19<br />
Now the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell. And great Babylon was remembered before God, to give her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of His wrath.</p>
<p>Revelation 18:3<br />
For all the nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her, and the merchants of the earth have become rich through the abundance of her luxury.”</p>
<p>Revelation 19:15<br />
Now out of His mouth goes a sharp sword, that with it He should strike the nations. And He Himself will rule them with a rod of iron. He Himself treads the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
		
			</item>
		<item>
		<title>
		By: Deborah (Discerning the World)		</title>
		<link>https://www.discerningtheworld.com/2012/10/02/not-wrath-but-rapture-will-the-church-participate-in-the-great-tribulation/#comment-462528</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Deborah (Discerning the World)]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 12 Dec 2017 09:54:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.discerningtheworld.com/?p=11289#comment-462528</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[In reply to &lt;a href=&quot;https://www.discerningtheworld.com/2012/10/02/not-wrath-but-rapture-will-the-church-participate-in-the-great-tribulation/#comment-462509&quot;&gt;Wayne Myers&lt;/a&gt;.

Dear Wayne

This guy at Christ connection  (the name of his website is very telling) is part of the New Apostolic Reformation; a take dominion of your planet Apostle/Prophet and 100% false teacher.  

It appears he is a date setter for the start of the Tribulation.  
&lt;ul&gt;
1st Time Trib was to start: Thursday, February 26, 2015&lt;/ul&gt;

&lt;ul&gt;

Revised, his 2nd attempt:  Revised and re-published on January 6, 2017 &lt;/ul&gt;

We are in the Trib now according to him...ag sies tog.
]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In reply to <a href="https://www.discerningtheworld.com/2012/10/02/not-wrath-but-rapture-will-the-church-participate-in-the-great-tribulation/#comment-462509" >Wayne Myers</a>.</p>
<p>Dear Wayne</p>
<p>This guy at Christ connection  (the name of his website is very telling) is part of the New Apostolic Reformation; a take dominion of your planet Apostle/Prophet and 100% false teacher.  </p>
<p>It appears he is a date setter for the start of the Tribulation.  </p>
<ul>
1st Time Trib was to start: Thursday, February 26, 2015</ul>
<ul>
<p>Revised, his 2nd attempt:  Revised and re-published on January 6, 2017 </ul>
<p>We are in the Trib now according to him&#8230;ag sies tog.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
		
			</item>
		<item>
		<title>
		By: Wayne Myers		</title>
		<link>https://www.discerningtheworld.com/2012/10/02/not-wrath-but-rapture-will-the-church-participate-in-the-great-tribulation/#comment-462509</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Wayne Myers]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 11 Dec 2017 18:39:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.discerningtheworld.com/?p=11289#comment-462509</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[you should check christconnection.net. google &#039;word 4 today&#039;  Martel Trevor Ministries]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>you should check christconnection.net. google &#8216;word 4 today&#8217;  Martel Trevor Ministries</p>
]]></content:encoded>
		
			</item>
		<item>
		<title>
		By: Tom Lessing (Discerning the World)		</title>
		<link>https://www.discerningtheworld.com/2012/10/02/not-wrath-but-rapture-will-the-church-participate-in-the-great-tribulation/#comment-448387</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Tom Lessing (Discerning the World)]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 17 Aug 2015 19:05:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.discerningtheworld.com/?p=11289#comment-448387</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[In reply to &lt;a href=&quot;https://www.discerningtheworld.com/2012/10/02/not-wrath-but-rapture-will-the-church-participate-in-the-great-tribulation/#comment-448384&quot;&gt;Carl Staton&lt;/a&gt;.

Carl Staton,

Your egg dance is becoming a lot more aggressive. You must decide whether you want your alleged protection of the saints during the seven years tribulation to be a literal, physical one or a spiritual one. You can&#039;t have it both ways.

Walfoord and Zuck says of Matthew 24:13 and Luke 21:19 (and I agree with them) the following:

&lt;blockquote&gt;Matthew 24:13: Those (of the Jews and the Gentiles who get saved during the seven years tribulation and not the Bride of Christ who will have been raptured before the tribulation) who remain faithful to the Lord until the end of that period (the Great Tribulation) will be saved. This does not refer to a personal self-effort at endurance that results in one&#039;s eternal salvation, but to physical deliverance (not of the Bride of Christ who had been raptured before the tribulation) of those who trust in the Saviour during the Tribulation. They will enter the (millennial) kingdom in physical bodies.

Luke 21:19: Jesus&#039; statements &quot;But not a hair of your head will perish,&quot; and &quot;By standing firm you will save yourself&quot; have confused many . Some interpret these phrases as speaking of spiritual realities in a believer&#039;s life. Ultimately, even if a believer dies, he or she will be protected eternally by God. However, it appears that Jesus was speaking here of salvation as entering into the Kingdom alive (cf. Matthew 24:9-13). To &quot;save yourself&quot; by &quot;standing firm&quot; means that believers show that they are members of the believing community in opposition to those who turn away from the faith during the times of persecution (Matthew 14:10). &lt;/blockquote&gt;

These verses do not refer to the Bride of Christ in this dispensation of grace between the outpouring of the Holy Ghost at Pentecost and the Rapture when He (the Restrainer - the Holy Ghost) will be taken out of the way at the Rapture prior to the seven yea rs Tribulation.

&lt;blockquote&gt;Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things? And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming. (2 Th 2:5-8)&lt;/blockquote&gt;

And by the way, I was not judging you. I was judging what you said (believe) in the light of Scripture. That&#039;s precisely what you should do as well.

&lt;blockquote&gt;1 Corinthians 2:15 Amplified Bible (AMP)

15 But the spiritual man tries all things [he [a]examines, investigates, inquires into, questions, and discerns all things], yet is himself to be put on trial and judged by no one [he can read the meaning of everything, but no one can properly discern or appraise or get an insight into him].&lt;/blockquote&gt;

]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In reply to <a href="https://www.discerningtheworld.com/2012/10/02/not-wrath-but-rapture-will-the-church-participate-in-the-great-tribulation/#comment-448384" >Carl Staton</a>.</p>
<p>Carl Staton,</p>
<p>Your egg dance is becoming a lot more aggressive. You must decide whether you want your alleged protection of the saints during the seven years tribulation to be a literal, physical one or a spiritual one. You can&#8217;t have it both ways.</p>
<p>Walfoord and Zuck says of Matthew 24:13 and Luke 21:19 (and I agree with them) the following:</p>
<blockquote><p>Matthew 24:13: Those (of the Jews and the Gentiles who get saved during the seven years tribulation and not the Bride of Christ who will have been raptured before the tribulation) who remain faithful to the Lord until the end of that period (the Great Tribulation) will be saved. This does not refer to a personal self-effort at endurance that results in one&#8217;s eternal salvation, but to physical deliverance (not of the Bride of Christ who had been raptured before the tribulation) of those who trust in the Saviour during the Tribulation. They will enter the (millennial) kingdom in physical bodies.</p>
<p>Luke 21:19: Jesus&#8217; statements &#8220;But not a hair of your head will perish,&#8221; and &#8220;By standing firm you will save yourself&#8221; have confused many . Some interpret these phrases as speaking of spiritual realities in a believer&#8217;s life. Ultimately, even if a believer dies, he or she will be protected eternally by God. However, it appears that Jesus was speaking here of salvation as entering into the Kingdom alive (cf. Matthew 24:9-13). To &#8220;save yourself&#8221; by &#8220;standing firm&#8221; means that believers show that they are members of the believing community in opposition to those who turn away from the faith during the times of persecution (Matthew 14:10). </p></blockquote>
<p>These verses do not refer to the Bride of Christ in this dispensation of grace between the outpouring of the Holy Ghost at Pentecost and the Rapture when He (the Restrainer &#8211; the Holy Ghost) will be taken out of the way at the Rapture prior to the seven yea rs Tribulation.</p>
<blockquote><p>Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things? And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming. (2 Th 2:5-8)</p></blockquote>
<p>And by the way, I was not judging you. I was judging what you said (believe) in the light of Scripture. That&#8217;s precisely what you should do as well.</p>
<blockquote><p>1 Corinthians 2:15 Amplified Bible (AMP)</p>
<p>15 But the spiritual man tries all things [he [a]examines, investigates, inquires into, questions, and discerns all things], yet is himself to be put on trial and judged by no one [he can read the meaning of everything, but no one can properly discern or appraise or get an insight into him].</p></blockquote>
]]></content:encoded>
		
			</item>
		<item>
		<title>
		By: Carl Staton		</title>
		<link>https://www.discerningtheworld.com/2012/10/02/not-wrath-but-rapture-will-the-church-participate-in-the-great-tribulation/#comment-448384</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Carl Staton]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 17 Aug 2015 16:19:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.discerningtheworld.com/?p=11289#comment-448384</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[No dance here. I refuse to ignorantly judge brethren and people whom I do not know. Eventually the Master will allow us to meet sooner or later and hopefully we will both rejoice. Just asking questions and reading your answers. And to answer your question &quot;No. I am not a Calvinist.&quot; But Matthew 24:13 and Luke 21:19 are not my words. Please take a word of advice in peace (again not my words): &quot;But the wisdom that is from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, and easy to be intreated, full of mercy and good fruits, without partiality, and without hypocrisy.&quot;

be blessed]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>No dance here. I refuse to ignorantly judge brethren and people whom I do not know. Eventually the Master will allow us to meet sooner or later and hopefully we will both rejoice. Just asking questions and reading your answers. And to answer your question &#8220;No. I am not a Calvinist.&#8221; But Matthew 24:13 and Luke 21:19 are not my words. Please take a word of advice in peace (again not my words): &#8220;But the wisdom that is from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, and easy to be intreated, full of mercy and good fruits, without partiality, and without hypocrisy.&#8221;</p>
<p>be blessed</p>
]]></content:encoded>
		
			</item>
		<item>
		<title>
		By: Tom Lessing (Discerning the World)		</title>
		<link>https://www.discerningtheworld.com/2012/10/02/not-wrath-but-rapture-will-the-church-participate-in-the-great-tribulation/#comment-448348</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Tom Lessing (Discerning the World)]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 16 Aug 2015 07:12:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.discerningtheworld.com/?p=11289#comment-448348</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[In reply to &lt;a href=&quot;https://www.discerningtheworld.com/2012/10/02/not-wrath-but-rapture-will-the-church-participate-in-the-great-tribulation/#comment-448321&quot;&gt;Carl Staton&lt;/a&gt;.

Carl Staton

Is answering questions a kind of arguing? You don&#039;t have to agree with everything I say. However whatever you say must harmonize with Scripture and at the moment you are doing a little &quot;protection&quot; egg dance.  First you insist that the alleged protection of the saints in the seven years tribulation will be a literal and complete physical protection from harm in much the same way the Israelite were protected in Goshen during their bondage in Egypt and then you do an about turn to insist that it will be a spiritual protection from the second death. 

You wrote,

&lt;blockquote&gt;The messenger stands before the congregation and reads that they are to stop fearing an ever greater suffering. But how can these next words not bring great fear to even this faithful church. The devil himself will point the accusing finger to cause some to be incarcerated. Ten days of false accusations will lead some even to be executed. And the comfort that Christ gives is “be faithful unto death.” Be faithful unto death? What type of protection is that? Protection that when they endure unto the end they will be saved and receive a victors (nikoia) crown of life. This type of protection is protection from the second death.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Are you suggesting that a saint’s endurance to the end is what saves him? It sounds too much like the Calvinists’ “P” in TULIP (Perseverance of the saints). Are you a Calvinist? All saints receive “protection” from the second death the moment they are born again. It is not contingent upon their endurance in times of persecution.

The protection in Revelation 2:8-11 is not a protection from God&#039;s wrath as it was in the time of Israel&#039;s bondage in Egypt. The seven years tribulation is primarily a time of God&#039;s wrath upon the entire world. (1 Thessalonians 5:9; Revelation 3:10). There is a vast difference between the tribulation of the saints and the seven years tribulation. When referring to the seven years tribulation Jesus said in Matthew 24 that it would be a time “ . . . such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.” The persecution and tribulation of the saints already began with the murder of Abel and has continued down the centuries until this very day. There’s nothing unique about the tribulation of the saints and can hardly be seen as something that never happened since the beginning of the world to this time. Moreover, the tribulation of the saints throughout the ages never occurred simultaneously to all saints worldwide. While some saints experienced persecution and tribulation in one place, others did not in other places. The tribulation during the seven years’ time of Jacob&#039;s Trouble will be a worldwide occurrence befalling all of mankind and not only the saints (the Jews and Gentiles who are going to be saved during the seven years tribulation). “Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.” (Revelation 3:10).

The word “from” in the above verse is “ek” (ex) and denotes a complete removal from one place to another. It is the same word used to describe Jesus’ resurrection from among the dead.

&lt;blockquote&gt;When therefore he was risen from the dead (“ek nekros”), his disciples remembered that he had said this unto them; and they believed the scripture, and the word which Jesus had said. (John 2:22).&lt;/blockquote&gt;

At first the disciples could not understand when He told them that He would be raised from the dead (ek nekros). The phrase “ek nekros” (from among the dead) was to them a completely new concept. They believed in a general resurrection when all the dead would be raised but never before heard about a resurrection from among the dead, i.e. a resurrection from the dead whilst the rest of the dead remained un-resurrected. They believed that the resurrection entailed the simultaneous resurrection of everyone. It was only after Christ’s resurrection that they understood the meaning of “ek nekros.” 

The reason why Paul called the Rapture a mystery (a “musterion” - something not previously disclosed) was because this very concept of a complete removal of the saints from among unbelievers, from one place to another, was unknown. First the deceased saints are going the be raised from among the dead (ek nekros) in the very same way Jesus was raised from amongst the dead, and then the living saints are going to be changed from the corruptible to the incorruptible in the twinkling of an eye. And then these two groups of saints are going to be removed (“ek” – ex) from among the unbelievers on earth to meet Jesus in the air.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In reply to <a href="https://www.discerningtheworld.com/2012/10/02/not-wrath-but-rapture-will-the-church-participate-in-the-great-tribulation/#comment-448321" >Carl Staton</a>.</p>
<p>Carl Staton</p>
<p>Is answering questions a kind of arguing? You don&#8217;t have to agree with everything I say. However whatever you say must harmonize with Scripture and at the moment you are doing a little &#8220;protection&#8221; egg dance.  First you insist that the alleged protection of the saints in the seven years tribulation will be a literal and complete physical protection from harm in much the same way the Israelite were protected in Goshen during their bondage in Egypt and then you do an about turn to insist that it will be a spiritual protection from the second death. </p>
<p>You wrote,</p>
<blockquote><p>The messenger stands before the congregation and reads that they are to stop fearing an ever greater suffering. But how can these next words not bring great fear to even this faithful church. The devil himself will point the accusing finger to cause some to be incarcerated. Ten days of false accusations will lead some even to be executed. And the comfort that Christ gives is “be faithful unto death.” Be faithful unto death? What type of protection is that? Protection that when they endure unto the end they will be saved and receive a victors (nikoia) crown of life. This type of protection is protection from the second death.</p></blockquote>
<p>Are you suggesting that a saint’s endurance to the end is what saves him? It sounds too much like the Calvinists’ “P” in TULIP (Perseverance of the saints). Are you a Calvinist? All saints receive “protection” from the second death the moment they are born again. It is not contingent upon their endurance in times of persecution.</p>
<p>The protection in Revelation 2:8-11 is not a protection from God&#8217;s wrath as it was in the time of Israel&#8217;s bondage in Egypt. The seven years tribulation is primarily a time of God&#8217;s wrath upon the entire world. (1 Thessalonians 5:9; Revelation 3:10). There is a vast difference between the tribulation of the saints and the seven years tribulation. When referring to the seven years tribulation Jesus said in Matthew 24 that it would be a time “ . . . such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.” The persecution and tribulation of the saints already began with the murder of Abel and has continued down the centuries until this very day. There’s nothing unique about the tribulation of the saints and can hardly be seen as something that never happened since the beginning of the world to this time. Moreover, the tribulation of the saints throughout the ages never occurred simultaneously to all saints worldwide. While some saints experienced persecution and tribulation in one place, others did not in other places. The tribulation during the seven years’ time of Jacob&#8217;s Trouble will be a worldwide occurrence befalling all of mankind and not only the saints (the Jews and Gentiles who are going to be saved during the seven years tribulation). “Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.” (Revelation 3:10).</p>
<p>The word “from” in the above verse is “ek” (ex) and denotes a complete removal from one place to another. It is the same word used to describe Jesus’ resurrection from among the dead.</p>
<blockquote><p>When therefore he was risen from the dead (“ek nekros”), his disciples remembered that he had said this unto them; and they believed the scripture, and the word which Jesus had said. (John 2:22).</p></blockquote>
<p>At first the disciples could not understand when He told them that He would be raised from the dead (ek nekros). The phrase “ek nekros” (from among the dead) was to them a completely new concept. They believed in a general resurrection when all the dead would be raised but never before heard about a resurrection from among the dead, i.e. a resurrection from the dead whilst the rest of the dead remained un-resurrected. They believed that the resurrection entailed the simultaneous resurrection of everyone. It was only after Christ’s resurrection that they understood the meaning of “ek nekros.” </p>
<p>The reason why Paul called the Rapture a mystery (a “musterion” &#8211; something not previously disclosed) was because this very concept of a complete removal of the saints from among unbelievers, from one place to another, was unknown. First the deceased saints are going the be raised from among the dead (ek nekros) in the very same way Jesus was raised from amongst the dead, and then the living saints are going to be changed from the corruptible to the incorruptible in the twinkling of an eye. And then these two groups of saints are going to be removed (“ek” – ex) from among the unbelievers on earth to meet Jesus in the air.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
		
			</item>
		<item>
		<title>
		By: Carl Staton		</title>
		<link>https://www.discerningtheworld.com/2012/10/02/not-wrath-but-rapture-will-the-church-participate-in-the-great-tribulation/#comment-448321</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Carl Staton]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 15 Aug 2015 03:14:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.discerningtheworld.com/?p=11289#comment-448321</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Thank you very much for your reply. Your answers are interesting but I&#039;m not one to argue.

A few more questions in response to your question &quot;What type of protection is that?&quot; What type of protection did Christ offer to the congregation in Smyrna (Revelation 2:8-11)? I can see them awaiting comforting news from a messenger sent from the Apostle John with a letter dictated to him by Christ. They are encouraged to see that Christ knew about the &quot;tribulation&quot; they were going through, their &quot;poverty&quot; which was a consequences of that tribulation, and the &quot;insults&quot; (blasphemy) they endure from a neighboring prospering Jewish congregation who measures their &quot;blessing&quot; by their material prosperity and not by the prosperity of their impoverished souls. The messenger stands before the congregation and reads that they are to stop fearing an ever greater suffering. But ow can these next words not bring great fear to even this faithful church. The devil himself will point the accusing finger to cause some to be incarcerated. Ten days of false accusations will lead some even to be executed. And the comfort that Christ gives is &quot;be faithful unto death.&quot; Be faithful unto death? What type of protection is that? Protection that when they endure unto the end they will be saved and receive a victors (nikoia) crown of life. This type of protection is protection from the second death. Reminds me of what happens in Luke 21:12-19 where some will be killed no doubt by beheading. But how can &quot;not an hair on their head (not) perish&quot; mean that those who lose their heads will do so with promise of keeping a head full of hair? Again protection from the second death. That is the type of protection our God provides to those of us who endure tribulation. We who suffer with Him have the promise to reign wit Him. We wear the brand-marks of Christ without fear and without shame.

be blessed]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thank you very much for your reply. Your answers are interesting but I&#8217;m not one to argue.</p>
<p>A few more questions in response to your question &#8220;What type of protection is that?&#8221; What type of protection did Christ offer to the congregation in Smyrna (Revelation 2:8-11)? I can see them awaiting comforting news from a messenger sent from the Apostle John with a letter dictated to him by Christ. They are encouraged to see that Christ knew about the &#8220;tribulation&#8221; they were going through, their &#8220;poverty&#8221; which was a consequences of that tribulation, and the &#8220;insults&#8221; (blasphemy) they endure from a neighboring prospering Jewish congregation who measures their &#8220;blessing&#8221; by their material prosperity and not by the prosperity of their impoverished souls. The messenger stands before the congregation and reads that they are to stop fearing an ever greater suffering. But ow can these next words not bring great fear to even this faithful church. The devil himself will point the accusing finger to cause some to be incarcerated. Ten days of false accusations will lead some even to be executed. And the comfort that Christ gives is &#8220;be faithful unto death.&#8221; Be faithful unto death? What type of protection is that? Protection that when they endure unto the end they will be saved and receive a victors (nikoia) crown of life. This type of protection is protection from the second death. Reminds me of what happens in Luke 21:12-19 where some will be killed no doubt by beheading. But how can &#8220;not an hair on their head (not) perish&#8221; mean that those who lose their heads will do so with promise of keeping a head full of hair? Again protection from the second death. That is the type of protection our God provides to those of us who endure tribulation. We who suffer with Him have the promise to reign wit Him. We wear the brand-marks of Christ without fear and without shame.</p>
<p>be blessed</p>
]]></content:encoded>
		
			</item>
		<item>
		<title>
		By: Tom Lessing (Discerning the World)		</title>
		<link>https://www.discerningtheworld.com/2012/10/02/not-wrath-but-rapture-will-the-church-participate-in-the-great-tribulation/#comment-448311</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Tom Lessing (Discerning the World)]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 14 Aug 2015 18:29:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.discerningtheworld.com/?p=11289#comment-448311</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[In reply to &lt;a href=&quot;https://www.discerningtheworld.com/2012/10/02/not-wrath-but-rapture-will-the-church-participate-in-the-great-tribulation/#comment-448304&quot;&gt;Carl Staton&lt;/a&gt;.

Carl Staton

THE LAST TRUMP
It depends on whether you believe in dispensationalism or not. If you don&#039;t the last trump will mean the last in point of time to you. If you do, it would mean the last in sequence. In the latter scenario the word &quot;last&quot; signifies the conclusion of a program (or dispensation). It also depends on whether you believe the church has replaced Israel (Replacement Theology) and that God has no program for his chosen people, the Jews. However, if you believe that God&#039;s program for the church (dispensation of grace) differs from his program for the Jews (the seven year tribulation, also called the time of Jacob&#039;s trouble), then each of these programs (dispensations) will be terminated by the blowing of a trumpet, called the last trumpet without making the two last trumpets identical. There are several differences between the two trumpets.

1) The trumpet in 1 Corinthians 15:52 will sound before God pours out his wrath on the world (seven years tribulation). The trumpet in Revelation 11:15 will be blown at the end of the time of God’s wrath (seven years tribulation), just prior to Jesus Christ’s Second Advent to the earth.
2) The last trumpet for the church in 1 Corinthians 15:52 is called the trump of God. The seventh trumpet in Revelation 11 is an angel’s trumpet, probably the angel Gabriel who is the angel of Israel. 
3) The trumpet for the church is singular. No trumpets precede or follow it and therefore cannot be said to be the last in a series. The trumpet that ends the tribulation period is clearly the last in a series of seven.
4) The voice associated with the sounding of the trumpet in 1 Thessalonians 4 is heard before the resurrection of the dead and the transfiguration of the living saints. Whilst a resurrection is mentioned in Revelation(11:12), the trumpet does not sound until after the resurrection
5) The trumpet in 1 Thessalonians heralds a blessing in life and in glory while the trumpet in Revelation heralds judgment on the enemies of God.
6) 1 Thessalonians the trumpet sounds “in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye.” In Revelation 10:7 it probably sounds for the entire duration of the judgments that occur under it because John speaks of the angel that shall “begin to sound.”

The Rapture of the church and of the two witnesses in Revelation differ in some detail. The Rapture of the church is called a mystery (“musterion”) whilst that of the two witnesses is not identified thus. Both the two witnesses are killed and then resurrected to be caught up. At the Rapture some saints will already have died and then resurrected whilst the living saints are going to be transformed in the twinkling of an eye. This is the mystery which had not been revealed before in the Old Testament whilst the resurrection of the dead (such as the two witnesses) was common knowledge in the Old Testament.

Paul used the pronoun “we” because he believed that the Rapture could happen any moment, even in his day.

Revelation 7:9 and 6:9 describe the same event. These are the saints who are going to be martyred and killed during the Tribulation. They will be granted a special privilege to serve and worship God before his throne. Revelation 6:17 describes the judgment of unbelievers during the tribulation.
 
The argument that the present day saints are not going to be raptured and instead will go through the seven year tribulation is flawed. As you’ve said, the anti Pre-Trib rapturists believe that God is going to protect the saints in much the same way He protected Israel in the land of Goshen when He poured out his wrath on Egypt. The fact is that not a single Israelite and their livestock were killed whilst they remained in Goshen. However, during the seven years tribulation God is going to grant Antichrist the power to make war with the saints and to overcome them (kill them – Revelation 13:7; 6:9). What kind of protection is that? Surely, if the protection of the Israelite in Goshen was a prototype of God’s protection of the saints in the tribulation, then none of them should be killed because not a single Israelite was killed during their slavery in Egypt. In fact, most of the saints are going to be beheaded during the tribulation and precious little will remain to be raptured at a Post-Trib Rapture, that’s if there is one. 

Why wasn’t Noah translated like his grandfather Enoch? Well, I suppose we can also ask, “Why wasn’t Cain raptured before he murdered his brother Abel or why wasn’t Abel raptured before his brother Cain murdered him. At least then Cain would have been prevented from sinning against God. The name “Noah” means to comfort. “And he called his name Noah, saying, This same shall comfort us concerning our work and toil of our hands, because of the ground which the LORD hath cursed. (Genesis 5:29). He could not have been much of a comforter for those who lived under the curse if he had been raptured like his grandfather Enoch who escaped the curse. It reminds me of what Paul once said, “For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain. But if I live in the flesh, this is the fruit of my labour: yet what I shall choose I wot not. For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better: &lt;strong&gt;Nevertheless to abide in the flesh is more needful for you&lt;/strong&gt;. (Philippians 1:21-24). Noah could only have been more needful as a comforter to those who lived under the curse whilst  he was still on earth and therefore, I assume, he was not raptured.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In reply to <a href="https://www.discerningtheworld.com/2012/10/02/not-wrath-but-rapture-will-the-church-participate-in-the-great-tribulation/#comment-448304" >Carl Staton</a>.</p>
<p>Carl Staton</p>
<p>THE LAST TRUMP<br />
It depends on whether you believe in dispensationalism or not. If you don&#8217;t the last trump will mean the last in point of time to you. If you do, it would mean the last in sequence. In the latter scenario the word &#8220;last&#8221; signifies the conclusion of a program (or dispensation). It also depends on whether you believe the church has replaced Israel (Replacement Theology) and that God has no program for his chosen people, the Jews. However, if you believe that God&#8217;s program for the church (dispensation of grace) differs from his program for the Jews (the seven year tribulation, also called the time of Jacob&#8217;s trouble), then each of these programs (dispensations) will be terminated by the blowing of a trumpet, called the last trumpet without making the two last trumpets identical. There are several differences between the two trumpets.</p>
<p>1) The trumpet in 1 Corinthians 15:52 will sound before God pours out his wrath on the world (seven years tribulation). The trumpet in Revelation 11:15 will be blown at the end of the time of God’s wrath (seven years tribulation), just prior to Jesus Christ’s Second Advent to the earth.<br />
2) The last trumpet for the church in 1 Corinthians 15:52 is called the trump of God. The seventh trumpet in Revelation 11 is an angel’s trumpet, probably the angel Gabriel who is the angel of Israel.<br />
3) The trumpet for the church is singular. No trumpets precede or follow it and therefore cannot be said to be the last in a series. The trumpet that ends the tribulation period is clearly the last in a series of seven.<br />
4) The voice associated with the sounding of the trumpet in 1 Thessalonians 4 is heard before the resurrection of the dead and the transfiguration of the living saints. Whilst a resurrection is mentioned in Revelation(11:12), the trumpet does not sound until after the resurrection<br />
5) The trumpet in 1 Thessalonians heralds a blessing in life and in glory while the trumpet in Revelation heralds judgment on the enemies of God.<br />
6) 1 Thessalonians the trumpet sounds “in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye.” In Revelation 10:7 it probably sounds for the entire duration of the judgments that occur under it because John speaks of the angel that shall “begin to sound.”</p>
<p>The Rapture of the church and of the two witnesses in Revelation differ in some detail. The Rapture of the church is called a mystery (“musterion”) whilst that of the two witnesses is not identified thus. Both the two witnesses are killed and then resurrected to be caught up. At the Rapture some saints will already have died and then resurrected whilst the living saints are going to be transformed in the twinkling of an eye. This is the mystery which had not been revealed before in the Old Testament whilst the resurrection of the dead (such as the two witnesses) was common knowledge in the Old Testament.</p>
<p>Paul used the pronoun “we” because he believed that the Rapture could happen any moment, even in his day.</p>
<p>Revelation 7:9 and 6:9 describe the same event. These are the saints who are going to be martyred and killed during the Tribulation. They will be granted a special privilege to serve and worship God before his throne. Revelation 6:17 describes the judgment of unbelievers during the tribulation.</p>
<p>The argument that the present day saints are not going to be raptured and instead will go through the seven year tribulation is flawed. As you’ve said, the anti Pre-Trib rapturists believe that God is going to protect the saints in much the same way He protected Israel in the land of Goshen when He poured out his wrath on Egypt. The fact is that not a single Israelite and their livestock were killed whilst they remained in Goshen. However, during the seven years tribulation God is going to grant Antichrist the power to make war with the saints and to overcome them (kill them – Revelation 13:7; 6:9). What kind of protection is that? Surely, if the protection of the Israelite in Goshen was a prototype of God’s protection of the saints in the tribulation, then none of them should be killed because not a single Israelite was killed during their slavery in Egypt. In fact, most of the saints are going to be beheaded during the tribulation and precious little will remain to be raptured at a Post-Trib Rapture, that’s if there is one. </p>
<p>Why wasn’t Noah translated like his grandfather Enoch? Well, I suppose we can also ask, “Why wasn’t Cain raptured before he murdered his brother Abel or why wasn’t Abel raptured before his brother Cain murdered him. At least then Cain would have been prevented from sinning against God. The name “Noah” means to comfort. “And he called his name Noah, saying, This same shall comfort us concerning our work and toil of our hands, because of the ground which the LORD hath cursed. (Genesis 5:29). He could not have been much of a comforter for those who lived under the curse if he had been raptured like his grandfather Enoch who escaped the curse. It reminds me of what Paul once said, “For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain. But if I live in the flesh, this is the fruit of my labour: yet what I shall choose I wot not. For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better: <strong>Nevertheless to abide in the flesh is more needful for you</strong>. (Philippians 1:21-24). Noah could only have been more needful as a comforter to those who lived under the curse whilst  he was still on earth and therefore, I assume, he was not raptured.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
		
			</item>
		<item>
		<title>
		By: Carl Staton		</title>
		<link>https://www.discerningtheworld.com/2012/10/02/not-wrath-but-rapture-will-the-church-participate-in-the-great-tribulation/#comment-448304</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Carl Staton]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 14 Aug 2015 13:02:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.discerningtheworld.com/?p=11289#comment-448304</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[A couple of questions: Is not &quot;at the last trump&quot; in 1Corinthians 15:52 the 7th and last trumpet where the 7 vials of God&#039;s wrath are poured upon the earth (Revelation 15)? Is this trumpet which occurs &quot;immediately after the tribulation of those days&quot; (Matthew 24:29-31) where the same terrestrial and celestial events occur in Revelation 6:12-17? And maybe this is the same trumpet accompanied by a shout and command of Christ in 1Thessalonians 4:16-17 when the rapture happens (which, by the way, seems similar to Revelation 11:11-15 where the two witnesses are resurrected and are caught up to heaven in a cloud right at the 7th and last trumpet)? And why does Paul use the pronoun &quot;we&quot; in his passages concerning the resurrection?

Another question: Isn&#039;t Revelation 7 (specifically v 9) the answer to the question in Revelation 6:17 &quot;and who is able to stand&quot; before &quot;the face of Him who sitteth on the throne?&quot; This great innumerable multitude of saints with palm branches seem reminiscent of the great crowd that accompanied and welcomed Christ in His &quot;Triumphal Entry&quot; into Jerusalem on the donkey where here He is coming on clouds.

Couple of more questions: Were not the Israelites led out of Egypt AFTER the Egyptians experienced great tribulation and the Israelites were protected through them; even from the worst and last plague by the seal of blood on their doorposts? Why was Noah not translated like His great grandfather Enoch nor died just before the flood like His grandfather Methuselah but instead was protected through the flood?

thank you
be blessed]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>A couple of questions: Is not &#8220;at the last trump&#8221; in 1Corinthians 15:52 the 7th and last trumpet where the 7 vials of God&#8217;s wrath are poured upon the earth (Revelation 15)? Is this trumpet which occurs &#8220;immediately after the tribulation of those days&#8221; (Matthew 24:29-31) where the same terrestrial and celestial events occur in Revelation 6:12-17? And maybe this is the same trumpet accompanied by a shout and command of Christ in 1Thessalonians 4:16-17 when the rapture happens (which, by the way, seems similar to Revelation 11:11-15 where the two witnesses are resurrected and are caught up to heaven in a cloud right at the 7th and last trumpet)? And why does Paul use the pronoun &#8220;we&#8221; in his passages concerning the resurrection?</p>
<p>Another question: Isn&#8217;t Revelation 7 (specifically v 9) the answer to the question in Revelation 6:17 &#8220;and who is able to stand&#8221; before &#8220;the face of Him who sitteth on the throne?&#8221; This great innumerable multitude of saints with palm branches seem reminiscent of the great crowd that accompanied and welcomed Christ in His &#8220;Triumphal Entry&#8221; into Jerusalem on the donkey where here He is coming on clouds.</p>
<p>Couple of more questions: Were not the Israelites led out of Egypt AFTER the Egyptians experienced great tribulation and the Israelites were protected through them; even from the worst and last plague by the seal of blood on their doorposts? Why was Noah not translated like His great grandfather Enoch nor died just before the flood like His grandfather Methuselah but instead was protected through the flood?</p>
<p>thank you<br />
be blessed</p>
]]></content:encoded>
		
			</item>
		<item>
		<title>
		By: Deborah (Discerning the World)		</title>
		<link>https://www.discerningtheworld.com/2012/10/02/not-wrath-but-rapture-will-the-church-participate-in-the-great-tribulation/#comment-340586</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Deborah (Discerning the World)]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 14 Oct 2014 07:12:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.discerningtheworld.com/?p=11289#comment-340586</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[In reply to &lt;a href=&quot;https://www.discerningtheworld.com/2012/10/02/not-wrath-but-rapture-will-the-church-participate-in-the-great-tribulation/#comment-339113&quot;&gt;john berry&lt;/a&gt;.

John

&gt;&gt;  It seems to me that luke 21:28 could only be referring to those to be raptured , ie because those left behind will not have a head to lift up to look up , does that sound right to you bible scholars ?

Sometimes trying to be a smart alec gets you no reply, did you not read the article? Never the less I will answer you - luke 21:28 does not refer to the pre-trip escape but the final rapture at the end of the trib. ]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In reply to <a href="https://www.discerningtheworld.com/2012/10/02/not-wrath-but-rapture-will-the-church-participate-in-the-great-tribulation/#comment-339113" >john berry</a>.</p>
<p>John</p>
<p>>>  It seems to me that luke 21:28 could only be referring to those to be raptured , ie because those left behind will not have a head to lift up to look up , does that sound right to you bible scholars ?</p>
<p>Sometimes trying to be a smart alec gets you no reply, did you not read the article? Never the less I will answer you &#8211; luke 21:28 does not refer to the pre-trip escape but the final rapture at the end of the trib. </p>
]]></content:encoded>
		
			</item>
	</channel>
</rss>
