Comments on: The Rapture – An Article to Knock Your Socks Off

By: Tom Lessing (Discerning the World)

Tom Lessing (Discerning the World) — Tue, 03 Nov 2015 14:00:53 +0000

In reply to Lou.

Lou

Dave MacPherson’s arguments to refute the Pre-Trib Rapture is old hat. Find something new and original. Maybe you should rather read your Bible and stop listening to people who hate the Parousia of Jesus Christ.

Read this.

TBC Staff

Jun 1 1995
Question: I’ve recently read documentation showing that the pretrib Rapture theory originated with a Jesuit priest, Emmanuel Lacunza, in the late 1700s, was picked up by an Edward Irving of Scotland (who translated Lacunza’s lengthy book from Spanish in 1826), and from Irving spread via a Margaret MacDonald to J. N. Darby and C. I. Scofield, who popularized it. Aren’t you embarrassed to teach a doctrine that originated with a Jesuit?

Response: The alleged Lacunza-Irving-MacDonald connection to Darby and Scofield has not been proved. Moreover, such speculation by MacPherson and others is pointless. Who cares where Darby and Scofield first got the idea of a pretrib Rapture? All that matters is what the Bible has to say on this subject!

I was taught a pretrib Rapture from childhood—not from the writings of Darby or Scofield, but from the Bible. As a Berean, I would not accept any belief were I not convinced that it was biblical. I hold to a pretrib Rapture because the Bible teaches it. I challenge you to check How Close Are We? against the Bible.

Furthermore, the claim that the pretrib Rapture was unknown in the church prior to Lacunza and Darby is not true. A sermon of uncertain authorship dating to at least the sixth century clearly presents the pretrib position. Titles “On the Last Times, the Antichrist, and the End of the World,” it declares, “All the saints and elect of God are gathered together before the tribulation, which is to come, and are taken to the Lord, in order that they may not see at any time the confusion which overwhelms the world because of our sins.” For more information contact the Pre-Trib Research Center.

By: Lou

Lou — Tue, 03 Nov 2015 07:06:46 +0000

Please Google “Pretrib Rapture Dishonesty,” “Pretrib Hypocrisy,” “Pretrib Rapture Stealth” and “Pretrib Rapture Pride.”

By: Vanessa

Vanessa — Wed, 14 Jan 2015 19:30:09 +0000

@Toddott you quote ( The Bible says that those things that happened to Israel are type/examples and warnings for us on whom the fulfillment of the ages has come.” – May i have chapter and verse of the Bible please.

God required a price to be paid for sin. Jesus paid it for each and every one of us through His journey to the cross. His sacrifice made on behalf of all of us is why those of us who believe in Him will someday be gathered around His throne in heaven as seen in Revelation 7:12 saying, “Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honour, and power, and might, [be] unto our God for ever and ever. Amen.” The church has obviously been raptured before Revelation 7:12 in this case if they are seen singing around the throne.

The 24 Elders are redeemed from the earth, yet the word says that no man has been in heaven. John 3 verse 13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven. Why are these redeemed elders then seen in heaven? long before the end of the tribulation or even mid trib.

Nobody knows if there is a gap between the rapture and the start of the tribulation so speculating has been the order of the day. Its great to debate it and often when we do we get further insight to unanswered questions which is how the Holy Spirit works with us.

There is no mention of the Angels marking the church during the tribulation. Only the 144 thousand are marked to protect them. Why not the church as well if we are here.? We know the wicked take a mark as well but somehow we are not mentioned. Is it because we have been raptured. Obviously

Lastly. Isaiah 26:20 Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy doors about thee: hide thyself as it were for a little moment, until the indignation be overpast.

This verse speaks of Gods love to us. For me it’s a precious promise that I wont be going through the tribulation, being a love letter full of hope and joy.

Imagine a earthly groom allowing his bride to witness the same horrors that are coming soon to the world. The earthquake alone will be so great that islands and mountains will be moved. Never mind the satanic raping of men, woman and children. The starvation, and the torment of the demons. Yet so many Christians nod their heads and say “yes Jesus will let you experience this but will protect. Makes no sense.

By: Tom Lessing (Discerning the World)

Tom Lessing (Discerning the World) — Tue, 13 Jan 2015 19:34:22 +0000

In reply to toddott.

toddott wrote:

The labor of the Church begins at the fifth seal, with persecution after the Abomination that causes desolation.

The tribulation is the time of Jacob’s (Israel’s) trouble and NOT the church.

The entire series of seals, trumpets and bowls are all part and parcel of the seven year tribulation and NOT the church age.

The wrath spoken of during the tribulation is not wrath from men, nor from Satan, except as God may use these agencies as channels for the execution of His will; it is tribulation from God.

Isaiah 24:1; Joel 1:15; Zephaniah 1:18; Revelation 6:16-17; Revelation 11:18; Revelation 14:7; Revelation 14:10; Revelation 14:19; Revelation 15:4; Revelation 15:7; Revelation 16:1; Revelation 16:7; Revelation 16:19; Revelation 19:1-2).

The first great purpose of the tribulation is to prepare the nation of Israel (not the church) for her Messiah. The prophecy of Jeremiah (30:7) makes it very clear that this time that is coming has particular reference to Israel (NOT the church) for it is the “time of Jacob’s trouble” (NOT the church).

Paul clearly taught a Pre-Trib Rapture (1 Corinthians 15:51-58 and 1 Thessalonians 4:16-18). In verse 18 he wrote: “Wherefore comfort one another with these words.” What kind of comfort do you have for the saints when you tell them they will be guarded and kept safe during the entire tribulation whilst the Bible teaches the exact opposite? (Revelation 13:7).

By: Tom Lessing (Discerning the World)

Tom Lessing (Discerning the World) — Tue, 13 Jan 2015 18:58:09 +0000

In reply to toddott. toddott wrote:

Where does it say the Church will be removed from this earth during this trial? The Church will be guarded in the same way that Israel was kept safe during the plagues.

I think you should read your Bible more carefully.

Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth. (Rev 3:10)

The word for "from" is ἐκ, ἐξ (ek ex) from which the English word "exit" comes from. It means that the saints will exit (be removed out of) the world to somewhere else and not, as you said, be gaurded in the same way that Israel was kept safe during the plagues. In fact, God does NOT promise that He is going to keep the saints safely in the tribulation. He says the very opposite.

And it was given unto him (Antichrist) to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations. (Rev 13:7)

Who are these saint? They are not the Jews and the Gentiles who come to the knowledge of salvation in the church age. They are Jews and Gentiles who are going to be saved during the tribulation. Precious few saints who are going to be saved during the tribulation are going to escape the guillotine of the Antichrist. Most of them are going to lose their heads. What kind of divine safekeeping is that? In fact, your view is a denial of Revelation 20:4. Jesus is not a polygamist who has two brides. He has one bride.

For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit. (1 Co 12:13)

Yes, you say that there is one bride but you cannot say He is married to two women. You are contradicting yourself. The one body is one bride and NOT two women.

By: toddott

toddott — Tue, 13 Jan 2015 16:57:14 +0000

Tribulation does not equal wrath. They are two entirely different words. Nowhere in the Bible does it say that the Tribulation is the wrath of God.
“Because you have guarded my word to persevere, I will keep you from the hour of temptation…” Where does it say the Church will be removed from this earth during this trial? The Church will be guarded in the same way that Israel was kept safe during the plagues.
As for the Father obtaining the Bride….
God was betrothed to Israel at Mount Sinai. He divorced His Bride because she was unfaithful, but He said that he would once again draw her back to Him with lovingkindness. He did this through the Cross. There is one Bride, made up of believing Israel and grafted in believing Gentiles. One Church and one Body. One New man out of the two. Jacob married two women, Leah and Rachel. Jesus will marry two women, believing Jew and believing Gentile. Together these two women make up one Bride, the New Jerusalem, with a foundation made of twelve Apostles and gates made of twelve tribes…ONE Bride. God does not have a spiritual Bride and a natural bride.

By: toddott

toddott — Tue, 13 Jan 2015 16:30:47 +0000

The Day of the Lord begings when the sun, moon and stars are darkened, according to Joel and Jesus. According to Jesus, this happens “after the tribulation of those days,” and according to John, this happens at the sixth seal. The fiest four seals are NOT to end, but are only “the beginnings of birthpains.” The labor of the Church begins at the fifth seal, with persecution after the Abomination that causes desolation.
The seals span the entire Church Age and end with the Second Coming on the Day of Atonement. The trumpets span the Great Tribulation and end with the Second coming on the Day of Atonement. The Bowls of wrath span the Day of the Lord after the Great Tribulation, from the Feast of Trumpets to the Second Coming on the Day of Atonement.
The Rapture occurs during the interlude between the sixth seal/trumpet and seventh seal/trumpet, on the Feast of Trumpets, and while we are in Heaven during the 10 “days of awe” the Bowls are poured out. Christ returns with His Bride to rescue Israel at Armageddon.
The Bible says that those things that happened to Israel are type/examples and warnings for us on whom the fulfillment of the ages has come.”
Just as the two spies escorted Rahab from the destruction of Jericho AFTER the seventh trumpet within a seventh (the seven bowls of wrath contained within the seventh trumpet) so also the Two Witnessed will escort the Church out of Babylon as is it destroyed.
Just as Lot was escorted by two angels out of the persection of the men of Sodom, through God’s wrath, so the Church will be escorted out of the persecution, through the wrath of God.
Just as Israel remained in Egypt during the 10 plagues, so the Church will remain in Babylon during the seven trumpets. Just as Israel passed safely out of the Red Sea wrath of God that destroyed Pharaoh and his armies, so the Church will pass safetly out of the Bowls of wrath as they are poured out on the Antichrist and his followers. The same wrath that saves us (because it was poured out on Christ for us) will destroy unbelievers.
The Seals are not God’s wrath, nor are that the Tribualtion. They are an overview of what is contained within the Scroll, which cannot be opened until all of the seals are removed. Nor are the trumpets the wrath of God, no matter what those hiding in the rocks believe. They are the judgements of God which are menat to bring repentance. They affect 1/3 of the earth, and during this time, repentance is still offered. However, when God’s patience comes to and end, His wrath will be poured out on the unrepentant. And His wrath will be complete, final and swift. And the Door to the Ark and the Wedding Feast will be closed forever.
It is not the rapture that happens in the twinkling of an eye, but rather, the change of our bodies from mortal to immortal. Every eyes will see Christ coming on the clouds at the rapture. The New Age Antichrist may explain it as a removal of those who refuse to be part pf the paradigm shift, but God’s wrath will quickly follow.
Dispensationalism is based on the false idea that God has two peoples. Not so. During the night Jacob wrestled with the Angel, and in admitting his sinfulness, that was was as his name implied, a deceiver, he overcame and was given the name Israel. During the Great Tribulation, Jacob will again wrestle with God, and a remnant who overcomes will be grafted back into the Olive Tree. And there is only ONE Olive Tree, made up of believing Jews and believing Gentiles. There is one faith, one baptism, one Lord over all who is in all. The saints and elect mentioned in Revelation ARE the Church, the Bride, the New Jerusalem.
Just as Jesus fillfilled the Spring Feasts on the very days they were oringinally celebrated, so also the Day of the Lord will occur on the very same days as the Fall Feasts. The rapture will occur of the Feast of Trumpets and ten days later (not seven years) Christ will return woth His Bride to rule and reign over those left over from the nations that came against Jerusalem, and those who call themselves Jews but are not, will come and bow before us and admit that He loved us.
There isn’t one verse that states that the rapture will happen seven years before the Second Coming. Not one.
That John in Revelation 4 is a picture of the rapture? Not stated anywhere, but is an assumption.
That the saints and elect are not the Church, even though that is the meaning throughout the rest of the New Testament? Another assumption. The saints that return with Christ clothed in white must not be the Church either. Strange that the Book of Revelation was written to the churches, and yet very little of it has anything to do with the Church.
The Holy Spirit is the restrainer? Maybe, but not where is it stated that the Church is removed. In fact, the literal translation of the verse is, “that which withholds will continue to withhold until he is revealed in the midst.” There is absolutely no hint of anything or anyone being removed from the earth by a rapture.
The rapture occuring before the apostay and the man of sin being revealed? Not according to a plain reading of the text.
Matthew 24 only for Israel? Hmmm. How do you pick and choose whoch parts are for the Church and which aren’t?
Enoch raptured before the flood is picture of a pretrib rapture? Hmmm. Interesting that before Enoch was rapture, there was a brother (a seed of the serpent) who murdered his brother (the seed of the woman) and received “mark,” and that before he was rapture there was also a man name Lamach that boasted and blasphemed God, concerning Cain’s sevenfold judgement. It seems the typology confirms that Enoch “the seventh from Adam” confirms that Enoch is rapture, after the persecution of God’s people and after the revelation of the Antichrist. Not to mention Elijah being raptured AFTER his dealings with Ahab (antichrist), Jezebel (Mystery Babylon) and the prophets of Baal (false prophet). Noah enters the Ark, but the wrath of God doesn’t fall for seven days. And those who are safe in Christ (the Ark) for those seven days, afterwards rise above the Floodwater (poured out from the seven bowls) at the same time that the rest are destroyed.
Lot and his two daughters, the three in the fiery furnace, as well as Mary, Martha and Lazarus, are pictures of the dead in Christ, we who are alive and remain, and the remanant of Israel whom Christ returns to in order to raise from the dead after “two days.”

By: Tom Lessing (Discerning the World)

Tom Lessing (Discerning the World) — Sun, 03 Aug 2014 16:01:56 +0000

In reply to Michael. Michael, Tallking about hacked up . . . as hacked up as your comment that doesn't even mention one single verse that was supposedly skipped in the article or even one diffiucult bit that was erased? No one said the Jews are not saved by grace. It's your one track mind that tells you that.

By: Michael

Michael — Sun, 03 Aug 2014 13:36:01 +0000

Article is very hacked up and skips verses that are key. This is common for rapture believers. Bits and pieces instead the entire thought that is given when read as a whole. When the difficult bits appear they wave the magic eraser and say “That bit of the Bible is for the jews not you, because they are saved by race, not grace”. Yuck poowee job on the article

By: Tom Lessing (Discerning the World)

Tom Lessing (Discerning the World) — Mon, 14 Jul 2014 11:44:13 +0000

In reply to R. Roth.

R. Roth

I agree! We should take heed that no one deceives us, including you. You too should be diligent and attentive so as not to be deceived. However, several of your statements show that you have already been deceived. Some of the major mistakes you are making, are the following:

1) You fail to make a distinction between the Church and Israel.
2) You fail to see that the Rapture is not in Matthew 24 and Luke 21.
3) You fail to see what the purpose is of the Seven Year Tribulation.
4) You are elevating eschatology to the status of salvation.

1) Typology plays a very important role in the Bible. I am sure you will agree that many Old Testament figures typified certain aspects of Jesus Christ’s life on earth. A person who fits into this category and our topic of discussion for the moment, is Joseph who is said to have typified Jesus as the suffering servant. The following are some of the things Joseph typified.

a. Jacob, Joseph’s father, loved him very dearly. Genesis 37:4a
God the Father, dearly loves Jesus Christ, His Son. Matthew 3:17; John 3:35; John 5:20.

b. Joseph’s brothers hated him. Genesis 37:4b.
Jesus’s brothers (his brethren the Jews) hated him (and they still hate Him). John 15:25.

c. Joseph’s brothers rejected his claims that they would bow before him. Genesis 37:8.
Jesus was rejected by his brothers because He claimed that He is the Son of God. In fact they thought he was crazy. Matthew 21: 37-39; John 15:24; Psalm 35:19; Psalm 69:5.

d. Joseph’s brothers planned to kill him. Genesis 37:18.
Jesus’s own people (the Jews) made plans to kill Him. Matthew 26:3 & 4.

e. Joseph was as good as dead to his brothers.
Although Joseph was not killed like Jesus, his father, Jacob, believed that he was dead because his brothers told him that a wild animal had killed him. Genesis 37:21.
Jesus was killed by crucifixion. Matthew 27:35-37.

f. Joseph was a great blessing for the heathen in Egypt and he acquired a bride for himself. Genesis 41:1-45.
Jesus became a great blessing for the heathen (the non-Jewish people) and He acquired a bride from among the Gentile nations for Himself. Ephesians 5:25-32; Isaiah 61:10.

g. Joseph was given a position high above all the inhabitants of Egypt and his own family. Genesis 45:1-15; Psalm 105: 17 – 19
Jesus was given a position and a Name above all God’s creation. Matthew 28:19 & 20; Ephesians 1: 18 – 23.

i. Joseph was reconciled to his brothers. Genesis 45: 1 – 15.
Israel (the Jews) will eventually be reconciled to Jesus. Romans 11: 1 & 2.

Of particular imprtance to our discussion is the fact that, like Joseph, Jesus is presently acquiring for Himself a bride amongst the Gentile nations (not the nation of Israel). The nation of Israel, as we see from Scripture, is not part of the bride of Christ but is God the Father’s wife (Jeremiah 3:14). The very same prophet Jeremiah called the yet future Seven Years Tribulation Period the time of Jacob’s (Israel’s) trouble (Jeremiah 30:7), indicating that the bride of Christ whom He is taking from among the Gentile nations (and not the Jewish nation) will not have any part in the tribulation. Indeed, she will have been raptured before the Seven Years Tribulation. In fact, the entire body (bride) of Christ (and not only a part of her) will be raptured. The verses that prove this is Roman 11:25 and 26. The phrase “fullness (completion) of the Gentiles” refers to the Rapture. A key verse in the correct understanding that the Jews are not part of the bride of Christ is John 3:29, “He that hath the bride is the bridegroom: but the friend of the bridegroom, which standeth and heareth him, rejoiceth greatly because of the bridegroom’s voice: this my joy therefore is fulfilled.” John the Baptist says here that he, as a representative of the Jewish nation, is not the bride but the friend of the bridegroom and his bride. The friend of the Bridegroom was only an assistant, not the main participant in the marriage. He may be likened to the modern-day best man at the wedding who rejoices to see his best friend getting married to his sweetheart.

I will answer the rest of your comment later.