Phyllis Tickle. Rob Bell. Doug Paggit. Roger.

And Nic Paton. But you knew that, didn’t you, Roger?

Merely having the Bible does not give us license to steal from others!

I agree. Yet you are all for the redistribution of wealth. Are you hoping for Marxism for South Africa? You are welcome to your own political ideas. But you are emerging from Christianity in order to achieve your political agenda and are perturbed when the fundamentalists point this out to warn Christians.

Until we’re honest about that to Muslims, we allow a huge blockage to get between the word of God, and them. Do you want to play a part in cementing this blockage, or removing it?

Roger. The Crusades were a defensive war to take back land stolen by Islam. And the Muslims are not apologizing for the worldwide Jihad raging at this moment.

The Emergent teaching (whatever that is) is not about all faiths leading to one God – I don’t know where you get that.

Phyllis Tickle. Rob Bell. Doug Paggit. Roger.

I don’t know enough about the internal tensions with Islam and Buddhism to comment about them, but I know to judge them on the fruit they lead to, and one of the fruits of the spirit is peace.

Yes, Islam leads to peace when all are submitted under Sharia law. There is the land of peace, where Sharia is the law of the land and the land of war, where Sharia is not yet the law of the land. All Muslims are required to wage Jihad until the whole world submits to Allah. Judge that fruit.

If a religion does not lead to peace, the Holy Spirit is not working within it.

Roger? Islam is the religion of peace. Are you saying that the Holy Spirit is therefore working in Islam?

If your Christian faith does not lead you to be a peacemaker, same thing.

The emerging movement is bringing division into the church. When they stop pretending to be Christian and join Maitreya openly, then there will be peace in the church.

So now why did these Christians who were saved into the Body of Christ still do evil things in the name of God?

Did you actually listen how Chris Rosebrough explained this in the second program? I have a question for you, Roger. Do poor people sin? Do the oppressed sin?

That’s the point – that the Gospel isn’t just about setting me right before God by taking care of my sin, it’s also about what happens after that point. Jesus said, “Blessed are the peacemakers,” and so we work for peace. This is an outworking of our salvation, not a means to salvation.

Oops. We are saved by the Gospel, only to be placed back under the bondage of the Law? You err greatly, Roger. You covet the good works of Christianity, yet you have no idea what it is to be a Christian. You misjudge what it is that Jesus Christ accomplished by living a perfect life for me and dying on the Cross for me.

The prophets talk about justice, and so we work for justice,

And justice is when everybody has the same? What do you think of Maitreya?

because this is what God is about, to bring justice to the earth.

Jesus Christ is coming back to judge the living and the dead and, if I might add, that means the rich and the poor.

And we do this as an outworking of our relationship with God, because that is what God is about. Caring about the widows and orphans, the poor and homeless.

Roger, do you believe that God could send a widow and an orphan, a poor or homeless man to hell?

I’ll answer your question about Muslims over coffee, Amanda.

I think you already have. Maybe you misunderstand what this is about? The fundamental doctrines of Christianity are not up for discussion. We warn that the emerging movement is about changing Christianity. Repent and believe the Gospel. Without that you are lost, no matter how many ‘good’ deeds you might do.

Roger

bla bla bla…NO is NO Roger…or Frank…or…whoever you are

And stop trying to quote from the ‘pages of scripture’ your ‘analysis’ or what you think the ‘scriptures’ means is ABSURD.

As for not wanting to hold my hand over tea and scones, you have my complete agreement! (I’d prefer cucumber sandwiches anyway). I’m just confused as to why you choose to hide behind an online nickname when you could come out and tell us all who you are. Clearly that’s why you don’t want to meet me for coffee – you’re worried that your real name might get out, and you’ll be out of the closet, exposed. Ok, that’s your choice. My offer still stands. Wear a paper bag over your head if you want.

Amanda, do you know why DTW is so scared of meeting me for coffee?

DTW: “Genuine Christians WILL NEVER USE THE WORD OF GOD FOR EVIL.” Go and read some history – you’ll find it quite hard to blame all the wrong things Christians did on Catholics, as if all other Christians were innocent. Simply being Methodist or Baptist or Anglican or Reformed does not mean that what somebody does is suddenly correct. Good Christians (Catholic and Protestant) supported slavery. Good Christians (Catholic and Protestant) supported Apartheid. Good Christians (Catholic and Protestant) supported Hitler. Simply pretending otherwise is naive.

As Christians, one of the tasks before us is to confess our sins, even if (and especially if) those sins are when we use Jesus in our own power games, to steal from others. This is a hard truth. Here’s one example. When Christians (who were fleeing religious persecution) came to South Africa, they had the Bible, and the local Africans had the land. A few centuries later, the equation was reversed. The Bible is used for some quite horrendous things which seemed like the will of God at the time. Merely having the Bible does not give us license to steal from others!

Perhaps you will one day meet some Catholics who confess Jesus with their lips and believe him in their hearts – I have. By Biblical standards, this makes them Christians.

If you’re referring to the Crusades when you talk about Catholics murdering others, lets remember that this was pre-Reformation. It wasn’t Catholics murdering others, it was Christians doing that. Until we’re honest about that to Muslims, we allow a huge blockage to get between the word of God, and them. Do you want to play a part in cementing this blockage, or removing it?

The Emergent teaching (whatever that is) is not about all faiths leading to one God – I don’t know where you get that. I don’t know enough about the internal tensions with Islam and Buddhism to comment about them, but I know to judge them on the fruit they lead to, and one of the fruits of the spirit is peace. If a religion does not lead to peace, the Holy Spirit is not working within it. If your Christian faith does not lead you to be a peacemaker, same thing.

Amanda, thank you for answering my question. Yes, you’re right – that gospel is the gospel that was preached during Apartheid. And people believed it, and were saved.

So now why did these Christians who were saved into the Body of Christ still do evil things in the name of God? And I’m not talking about the accidental things they unwittingly did, I’m talking about the evil that was committed in the name of God, but those part of the body of Christ, who were saved by that Gospel, yet who persisted in using that same Gospel to subjugate and abuse those they had power over.

That’s the point – that the Gospel isn’t just about setting me right before God by taking care of my sin, it’s also about what happens after that point. Jesus said, “Blessed are the peacemakers,” and so we work for peace. This is an outworking of our salvation, not a means to salvation.

Paul outlines the fruit of the spirit: love, joy, peace, patience, etc. The prophets talk about justice, and so we work for justice, because this is what God is about, to bring justice to the earth.

God cares about the poor – it’s all over the pages of Scripture. And so we help the poor where we can and with what we have – not only relationally, but also by improving the systems which helped make those people poor in the first place. And we do this as an outworking of our relationship with God, because that is what God is about. Caring about the widows and orphans, the poor and homeless.

I’ll answer your question about Muslims over coffee, Amanda.

The Gospel that was preached during the apartheid (segregation) years was this:

Now I would remind you, brothers, of the gospel I preached to you, which you received, in which you stand, and by which you are being saved, if you hold fast to the word I preached to you–unless you believed in vain. For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received: that Christ died for our sins in accordance with the Scriptures, that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day in accordance with the Scriptures,
(1Co 15:1-4)

That is it. That is what saves people into the Body of Christ. I don’t see how you can ‘wrongly use’ this Gospel except by changing or denying it.

Why do you call Islam a great religion? Are you aware that all Muslims are commanded to fight Jihad until the whole world submits to their god and then there will be peace? There is nothing they can do about that, except obey. They certainly cannot ‘figure’ it out. The Koran is very clear about this and it cannot be changed. Who made you believe that true peace is possible? Who made you believe that the Gospel may be changed? In fact, Roger, you are doing exactly what you accuse political leaders of doing: using the Bible to engineer a social political change.

Do you agree that the solution to the world’s problems is to share?

You replied: “You can’t be serious? Did you read my comments above…oh wait you actually summarised it…*sighs*”

DTW, my summary was the making a point by reductio ad absurdum (reducing things to their most absurd, and thereby making the opposite point). Amahoro are not about the things you accuse them of (witchcraft?! Seriously?!). Simply repeating over and over again, “The gospel is about the forgiveness of sins,” and not owning up to the ways that gospel was used in evil ways does nothing to further this conversation. I’m still waiting for you to make a single point about that.

So, are you scared of a face-to-face coffee? You didn’t answer directly. I’m in Joburg – where are you?

Roger

>> DTW, my summary was the making a point by reductio ad absurdum (reducing things to their most absurd, and thereby making the opposite point).

YES Roger, I know. But in trying to make the Gospel of Jesus Christ into something ABSURD you actually took all the important points and highlighted them. Anyone whos cares for the TRUTH however when reading you comment would just ignore your reductio ad absurdum.

>> So, are you scared of a face-to-face coffee? You didn’t answer directly. I’m in Joburg – where are you?

I said, “honestly I don’t have time here to hold your hand over tea and scones” So that’s a no, what part of that didn’t you understand.

You have the Bible do you not? Go read it over the duration of a few thousand cups of coffee,

>> “The gospel is about the forgiveness of sins,” and not owning up to the ways that gospel was used in evil ways does nothing to further this conversation

FINALLY my last say. Genuine Christians WILL NEVER USE THE WORD OF GOD FOR EVIL. Gee whiskers…what’s wrong with you. The atrocities committed throughout the centuries have been by Roman Catholics, they murdered everyone who refused to adhere to them. Roman Catholocism is NOT Christian and NEVER will be.

And if you say the gospel was used for evil, BUT the Emergent teaching is all about ALL faiths LEADING TO ONE GOD…are you AGREEING that the teaching of Islam is in effect evil, or Buddhist teachings are evil when they went on a rampage and killed a few hundred people in Inda recently? What ‘gospel’ are THEY following??? The Bible? Please, stop contradicting youself…really.

You say I put words in your mouth, the problem is Roger, you don’t SAY WHAT YOU MEAN.

Go contemplate on that will you…breath, clear your thoughts, remove any logicical thinking, switch off that brain that God gave you…you can ask that catholic comtemplative prayer person (whatever his name was – it’s in the above article) on how to do it.

*sigh* This conversation with you is like trying to nail jello to a wall. Well, since blogging isn’t working, how about a face-to-face? I’m always up for coffee – how about you?

>> Give me a compelling critique of how this gospel was wrongly used during all of the above times, what we learn from it, and how it has changed

You can’t be serious? Did you read my comments above…oh wait you actually summarised it…*sighs*

>> This conversation with you is like trying to nail jello to a wall.

Just call me Flubber! Getting splattered all over the place as I repeat myself over and over and over again. Well enough of that…

I tell you what, go open your own blog and preach the opposite to what I say (actually I am sure I said that to someone in the About This Blog page)….honestly I don’t have time here to hold your hand over tea and scones when there are millions of others who actually care for the truth that Jesus Christ gave HIS LIFE to SAVE YOUR SOUL that you will NOT PERISH because we are all born into a sinful world. Those who refuse Him will prerish, those who accept Him and repent of their Sin will be saved. (Unlike Ama’horror’ that is not into saving souls at all).

Besides, all you have to do is open your Bible and study the scriptures for yourself. Easy peasy….

Lastly, I can’t make you care, and I would never force you to care for the true Gospel of Jesus Christ. Unlike the Man of Lawlessness who will force you to worship him, make sure you won’t be able to buy and sell without taking his mark. Yes, that means coffee will be out of the question soon for those who follow Jesus Christ the Son of God. Maybe I should take you up on that offer while I still can…

It’s all upto you. Your choice. Choose Jesus Christ or a counterfeit Christ. Cos that’s what it’s going to come down too. The entire world is going to be asked this question, direclty or indirectly very soon.

I salute your ability to pick and choose what you want to fight with, and to leave the rest alone. Dude, that’s a spiritual gift. Please never go into academia, for your own sake: your first essay will be returned post-haste.

You have no idea about me or what I believe, but you have cunningly read my mind before I’ve been able to explain the specifics you accuse me of. You must have supernatural powers!

In your first paragraph above, you state your belief that the only way to disagree with someone is to attack them. Good luck in your relationships (and I hope you never disagree with God).

You don’t answer my “cynical spirit” charge so let me phrase it another way: your online interactions are drenched in cynicism. Are your face-to-face relationships the same?

Your answer to my “Jesus was a rabbi” statement shows that, theologically, you are almost completely on the “transcendence” side on have nothing on the “immanence” side. This gives you a holy, wrathful God who has no compassion. You would probably say that I’m on the other side – but I’ve yet to present my case!

Thank you for warning me about the bus which is going to hit me. I happen to think you’re mistaken, and this is based upon engagement with my community, reflection upon Scripture, the tradition of the Church, and much prayer. I continue to work out my salvation with fear and trembling.

I have rather a good idea that you don’t care one bit about me, but enjoy whacking me over the head with your correct theology, which is, of course, the theology of the Bible. Having read your blog, it’s no wonder people who disagree with you don’t stick around. Are your friends all people who share the same perspective as you?

Perhaps you’ve forgotten why God wrestled with Jacob, and why the Judeo-Christian tradition is defined by this wrestling.

How do you reconcile the false Christ bringing peace with Jesus being called the Prince of Peace? With the angels singing, “Peace on earth and goodwill to all men”?

And equally, how do you get past this line in the Lord’s prayer – which the Church has conveniently forgotten over the last 200 years: “Your Kingdom come, on earth as it is in heaven.” That’s not an eschatalogical statement, that’s a prayer for it happening now. Inaugurated eschatalogy, if you want the technical term.

You’re warning people because you love them – great! In what other ways are you demonstrating your love for people?

You said, “Oh so what you are saying is that ALL faiths lead to the same God.” Yes, I said that. Oh wait, I didn’t. You put those words in my mouth. You do that a lot, don’t you?

So your hope for Muslims is what, exactly? What about those ones who won’t become Christians? You wash your hands of them and don’t care what happens to them?

“God who sent His Son Jesus Christ INSISTS on YOU asking HIM for forgiveness for YOUR SIN through HIS ONLY SON, so that you can be RESTORED to GOD.” Amen! So why is it that those who are restored to God are the most arrogant, unloving, ungraceful people around? For the fruit of the spirit is…what, exactly? DTW, if you are what a Christian is, I do not want to be a Christian.

I think this paragraph sums up your theology quite well:

“Of course that is why we WARN EVERYONE, no matter their race, coulour, language because we LOVE THEM. That they are going to perish if they don’t believe in Jesus Christ the Son of God. Repent of their Sin, be born again through God’s Holy Spirit. Jesus Christ is the WAY the TRUTH and the LIFE NO MAN comes to the FATHER BUT through HIM.”

Now, this was the same gospel preached during Apartheid South Africa as Christians were quite content to oppress their neighbour. It was the same gospel that was preached to First Nations people in Canada, as their native tongue and religion was beaten out of them by Christians. It was the same gospel which sustained slave traders as they kidnapped millions of Africans.

Want me to listen to your gospel? Give me a compelling critique of how this gospel was wrongly used during all of the above times, what we learn from it, and how it has changed. Or just continue mindless attacking others – I guess you have to express your anger *somehow.*