Benson and Poonen Dishonesties

In our so-called enlightened age of reason, one of the most dangerous mortal sins you dare not do is to tell someone to their face they are liars or are lying. I realized this again when Paul Benson, the author of A Bucket Full of Holes! Solid Proof the Pre-Trib Theory is False,” reprimanded me for calling one of his supra knowledgeable anti-Pretribulation gurus Zac Poonen a liar.

It all started when I read an article Benson had written on Zac Poonen some time ago, which he entitled “The Church, The Tribulation, and The Great Falling Away.” Paul Benson’s adoration of Zac Poonen falls a nano-millimeter short of praise and worship. He wrote:

I don’t know that I could possibly recommend a more insightful and balanced ministry than that of brother Zac Poonen. His teachings on Christian doctrine in general, and the eschatology in particular presented in the following video, are in excellent harmony with the Scriptures. He, a former ‘pre-tribber’, left behind that erroneous teaching for the very same reason I did. He could not find it in the Bible though he searched for it diligently.

The Word of God was speaking no such thing to him. The only place he was hearing it was from the pulpit! Please take time to listen to this man of God warn of the deceptions associated with the Return of our Lord being taught today by Christians who have been deceived by seducing spirits and doctrines of devils. (Emphasis added).

Indeed, please take time to watch the video and experience first-hand how to go about lambasting doctrines of devils and their lies (in this case, the Pretribulation Rapture) whilst they (Benson and Poonen) themselves exuberantly defend and promulgate Satan’s lies.

Please bear in mind that Jesus Christ Himself said that Satan is the father of all lies, every single one of them, and, therefore, may not in any circumstances be excused or tolerated. As you may see from the following passage, Jesus never beat around the bush.

Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it. (John 8:44)

Here now is the video Paul Benson encourages you to view, and please listen carefully to see if you can notice the lie coming from his lips in the very first sentence he utters during the first 43 seconds.

Were you able to spot the lie? To make it easier, here again, is what Zac Poonen said:

Today I wanna speak to you about a word which is never found in the Old Testament but is found frequently in the New Testament which means it’s a distinctively new covenant word. And It will surprise you what it is. It’s the word “tribulation.” Have you ever thought of that as a new covenant word?

We all make mistakes because we are all fallible human beings. This is probably the understatement of the year. However, there is one thing that angers me very much, and that is when “Christians” cover up lies of well-known-preachers just because they have “insightful and balanced ministries.”

Insightful and balanced ministries, personalities of renown, spiritual celebrities and brothers and sisters in Christ have never been and will never be the litmus tests for truth. God’s Word and his Word alone is the litmus test for truth. Whatever anyone says that is not in harmony with God’s Word must be rejected outright because all lies come from the father of lies, Satan himself.

My most natural response, whenever I am confronted with Satan’s lies, is to retort in writing or personally, simply because, to me, deception and especially deliberate deception, is the most contemptible thing imaginable. Jesus Himself regarded deception so intensely despicable that He could say to the Pharisees:

Woe unto you, lawyers! for ye have taken away the key of knowledge: ye entered not in yourselves, and them that were entering in ye hindered. (Luke 11:52)

I wrote the following comment on Paul Benson’s site “Let’s Get it Right.” To my surprise, he posted it with one edit. He edited out the Scriptures I used to prove to him that Zac Poonen was lying when he said “Today I wanna speak to you about a word which is never found in the Old Testament but is found frequently in the New Testament which means it’s a distinctively new covenant word. And It will surprise you what it is. It’s the word “tribulation.”

Zac Poonen is not telling you the truth, but a lie. He asserts that the word “tribulation” never appears in the Old but only in the New Testament.

In fact, the word “tribulation” appears three times in the Old Testament: When thou art in tribulation and all these things are come upon thee, even in the latter days, if thou turn to the LORD thy God, and shalt be obedient unto his voice; (Deu 4:30). Yet ye have forsaken me, and served other gods: wherefore I will deliver you no more. Go and cry unto the gods which ye have chosen; let them deliver you in the time of your tribulation. (Jdg 10:13-14) 

These two passages refer to Israel’s end-time seven-year tribulation which prove that it is indeed Jacob’s Trouble and not the Church’s trouble or tribulation.

The other passage relates to King David’s tribulation when King Saul and his men pursued him and tried to kill him. 

And, behold, as thy life was much set by this day in mine eyes, so let my life be much set by in the eyes of the LORD, and let him deliver me out of all tribulation. (1 Samuel 26:24). 

Mr. Benson-the-Bucket-Full-of-Holes, I urge you to make doubly sure that whatever you or your fundi say can indeed be substantiated by God’s Word.

Let me remind you what you wrote in your book:  A Bucket Full of Holes. 

It is absolutely amazing the lengths folks will go to in order to fabricate various proofs, or twist alternate renderings out of verse, to provide support for their theory. Much of this book deals with debunking those cagey ‘proofs’ and showing them to be unworkable. All in all I think you will find much to ponder in these pages. So let’s engage that safeguard of critical examination and take a thorough look at all the various facets of pre-trib theory, and see if there really is any reason we should be believing in such a concept.” – Paul Benson. 

You are guilty of your own indictment. How can we trust you and your fundi when you refuse to remove the beam from your own eyes?

He responded as follows:

Hi Tom; I caught that statement also; but I would caution against such an attitude of accusation and mistrust of Bro. Poonen’s (or my own ministry) over his words. Those words are easily explainable; and I think he deserves a bit more grace than you seem to be willing to give him. 

As I understand it Brother Poonen and those associated with his ministry use the New American Standard Bible for their study and preaching. Although I strongly advise my readers to use only the KJV due to the errors and deletions I have discovered to be prominent in ALL modern versions; I do not discredit the preaching or ministry of any who do chose to use them. Brother Poonen was not lying or being deceptive with what he was saying.

The word ‘tribulation does NOT occur in the Old Testament in the NASB. Brother Poonen is a humble and faithful man of God; and I am sure that if any pointed out to him the word tribulation does occur 3 times in the O.T. in the KJV (or others) he would gladly amend his statement to reflect that fact.

But be that as it may; it does not alter the validity of his comments concerning the difference between God’s dealings with man in either the O.T. or N.T. era; nor the validity of his message on the incorrectness of pre-trib theory. 

He was not being cagey, twisting Scripture to make false claims, nor was he fabricating ‘proofs’ (practices I can clearly show evident in pre-trib preaching and teaching!). Your insinuation Brother Poonen was lying, and his entire teaching was untrue just because you found a point you thought you could discredit him on is unfounded (and quite telling). 

The truth remains that the pre-trib rapture teaching is a provably false concept. It is an unbiblical creation of man that disregards the truths that are plainly and clearly stated in the Bible; and exalts instead man’s wayward notions about the end-time scenario that have no foundation in the Word of God! 

I am sorry you have chosen to embrace that fable rather than the expressly stated truths of the Scriptures. May the Lord lead us all into his perfect truth; Paul Benson

So, according to Post-tribulation and Pre-wrath aficionados, you may lie, and that without compunction, when your hellish hatred of the cursed Pre-tribulation Rapture needs to be satisfied by your desperate wickedness (Jeremiah 17:9).

The only thing needed to set things right (pun intended) is to throw your best spiritual gurus’ holy credential in your face and everything is hunky-dory. As Paul Benson would probably say, “Let’s get it Right” to allow our revered preachers to use the NASB and lie as much as they please.”

Guess what? Paul Benson refused to post my follow-up answer.

I am pretty sure Poonen has a KJV Bible and should have made sure what it and other versions of the Bible say before making such a claim. I am sure you will agree there can never be two contradicting truths.

Only one can be true which automatically makes the contradiction of that truth a lie. What else can you call it other than a lie? For instance, you do not only call the Pretribulation Rapture a lie, but a lie from the pit of hell. I cautioned you against such an attitude of accusation and mistrust of God from Isaiah 5:20, but you just brushed it off as if it was nothing and of no concern of yours. 

So, it’s OK to accuse God of lies from the pit of hell but a mortal sin to accuse a Bro who wilfully and deliberately spreads a lie. “He was not being cagey,” you said. Really? Any Bible scholar who searches out the truth will always, I repeat ALWAYS, at least consult with the KJV because he knows it is very dangerous to deceive others. 

You wrote:”Brother Poonen was not lying or being deceptive with what he was saying. The word ‘tribulation does NOT occur in the Old Testament in the NASB. Brother Poonen is a humble and faithful man of God; and I am sure that if any pointed out to him the word tribulation does occur 3 times in the O.T. in the KJV (or others) he would gladly amend his statement to reflect that fact.

But be that as it may; it does not alter the validity of his comments concerning the difference between God’s dealings with man in either the O.T. or N.T. era; nor the validity of his message on the incorrectness of pre-trib theory.”In fact, the word “tribulation” in the Old Testament verifies to perfection how God aims to deal with his people the Jews during the seven-year tribulation.

The authors of Deuteronomy and Judges could not possibly have referred to the Church as we know it today. Therefore, the use of “tribulation” in those passages are, as I said before, Old Testament predictions of how God is going to deal with Israel (not the Church) during the seven-year tribulation.

Hence the designation “Jacob’s Trouble.” Allow me to remind you of your own words in your book, “A Bucket Full of Holes” “It is my hope people would realize how deceived we have been by the teachings of man; and thus be convinced of the need to embrace the corrective apparatus of proper Bible study; looking for the true meaning of verses of Scripture through studying them in the passages of their origin.

I believe this practice will ultimately lead to a similar belief structure as I have; for that has been the source of mine. And so much better to get there on efforts of your own, and not just because of what others, or even myself, have taught. I am definitely fallible; but God’s Word is not. We need to verify whether people are preaching the same meaning for Bible verses as what you would get reading them in context.

This practice of critical appraisal destroys the majority of false teaching; and will prove to be a valuable defense. ‘Proof texts’ that are snippets of Scripture taken out of context are the basic building blocks of all pseudo-Christian false teaching. And these false teachings are not only damaging and defiling, but also quite divisive.” Yet, now you make excuses for a fallible man like Zac Poonen? Is that the way you apply your own rules and regulations?

If you caught the statement also, as you said, why didn’t you warn others about his error? Or is Brother Poonen’s status and esteem as a humble and faithful man of God more important than God’s truth?

Brother Peter was also a humble and faithful man of God, but Paul openly and publicly rebuked him for his error (sin). Is Brother Poonen any better than Peter? I have proved to you again and again that you do not heed your own indictments but regularly fail to remove the beam out of your own eye.

By the way, why did you edit out the passages I quoted from Scripture? Is that the way you propose to defend your doctrines by not allowing your readers to study and understand Scripture? 

You wrote: “I am sure that if any pointed out to him the word tribulation does occur 3 times in the O.T. in the KJV (or others) he would gladly amend his statement to reflect that fact.” 

I suggest that you contact Bro Poonen as soon as you can and ask him to publicly admit that he made a mistake and did not willfully try to deceive the body of Christ. You may even buy a KJV Bible for him and publicly present it to him as the only trustworthy English translation of God’s Word.

If Zac Poonen was to publicly admit that he misrepresented the Word of God by his use of the NASB instead of the KJV, which uses the word “tribulation,” he would have had to admit that the seven-year tribulation is, in essence, a Jewish phenomenon and does not in any which way possible refute the Pre-tribulation Rapture.

In fact, he will have to admit that the word “tribulation” is not a new covenant term, as he says, but a fulfillment of an Old Testament prophecy in regard to the seven-year tribulation. Nonetheless, their argument, which one may call “the absenteeism syndrome,” and which claims ad infinitum that this or that word, or this or that doctrine, do not appear in the Bible, is so typical of false teachers.

How can you expect them to believe that the word “tribulation” also appears in the Old Testament when they consistently argue that the Pretribulation Rapture is not in the Bible because the once-off and simultaneous resurrection and rapture of the just at Jesus Christ’s Second Advent is the final proof of the pudding?

Imagine Paul having said to the Thessalonian Christians, “Behold I shew a mystery” and they all answered him by saying, “Brother Paul, don’t be silly and please do not claim you are telling us a mystery. We already know your so-called mystery from the Old Testament scriptures.

The mystery is the resurrection of the just at the end of the age when Christ Jesus returns at his Second Advent to the earth. Even Job, one of the oldest books in the Bible tells us this mystery when he says, ‘And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God.’ (Job 19:26).

According to Paul Benson of “A Bucket Full of Holes” fame (or is it infamy?), you may tell a lie and deceive others when you use the NASB version because the word “tribulation” does not appear in the Old Testament in the NASB.

So, if some saints in the audience have their KJV’s opened while Benson’s guru, Zac Poonen tells them the word “tribulation” does not appear in the Old Testament because it is uniquely a new covenant word, they must humbly submit to his lies because his NASB overrides and surpasses their KJV Bible. Oh OK, what about the word “distress” which, believe it or not, does appear in the NASB’s Old Testament. Strong’s concordance defines “tribulation” as follows:

tsar    tsârtsar, tsawrFrom H6887; narrow; (as a noun) a tight place (usually figuratively, that is, trouble); also a pebble (as in H6864); (transitively) an opponent (as crowding): – adversary, afflicted (-tion), anguish, close, distress, enemy, flint, foe, narrow, small, sorrow, strait, tribulation, trouble.

Oh dear oh dear oh dear. Do you see that, Mr. Benson-the-bucket-full-of-holes-little-liar? The word “distress,” which just happens to be used in the NASB has the very same etymological meaning as the word “tribulation.”

How nice of you to say, “Brother Poonen was not lying or being deceptive with what he was saying. The word ‘tribulation does NOT occur in the Old Testament in the NASB. Brother Poonen is a humble and faithful man of God, and I am sure that if any pointed out to him the word tribulation does occur 3 times in the O.T. in the KJV (or others) he would gladly amend his statement to reflect that fact.”

Wow! I never knew that humility and faithfulness were determined by the degree of lies and deceit that oozes from false teacher’s pure, untainted and holy lips? What is so humble in telling lies? What kind of faithfulness is entrenched in deception? You must be kidding me.

Let’s unpack this a little more to understand why anti-Pretribulation warriors of the Benson and Poonen caliber are happy to defend false doctrine, even to the extent that they are unashamedly and intentionally prepared to lie without blinking their eyelids in the twinkling of an eye, and in their efforts to validate their hatred of Jesus Christ’s imminent return at the Pretribulation Rapture.

How can you trust them and their doctrinal views on the Rapture when they can’t even get it right (pun intended) to discern with biblical accuracy that the word “tribulation” (“distress”) appears in the Old Testament? Their mathematical tomfooleries look something like this.

OT NASB – “tribulation” (distress) = truth (not a lie).

OT KJV + “tribulation” = truth (not a lie).

But wait, it gets even better as Poonen continues to define the word “tribulation.” About nine minutes into the video, Poonen says that “tribulation throughout Scripture is generally always referring to man troubling Christians, because of their faith: Man persecuting Christians for their faith. This is what we need to understand, clearly. They (men) will deliver you into tribulation and they will kill you; birth pains.”

In compliance with Paul Benson’s request to be more gracious in my apologetics and not to call Zac Poonen a liar or deceptive, I shall refer to his mistakes as little white lies. However, white lies are extremely more dangerous because they come from the same source, the father of all lies (John 8:44) who, as an angel of light, knows how to don his lies in light so that we may call them little white lies, instead of lies and deception.

As you may recall Poonen said that “tribulation throughout Scripture is generally always referring to man troubling Christians, because of their faith.” Let’s don our Berean caps to see whether this is the truth or a lie. In the book of Romans, Paul says:

Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile; (Romans 2:9). Which is a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God, that ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer: Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you; (2 Thessalonians 1:5-6). Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds. (Revelation 2:22).

Only those who are deliriously moon-struck with images of what a Christian should look like will say that the three examples quoted above refer to Christians and not unbelievers.

Moreover, they will fight tooth and nail in trying to prove it is not God but men who perpetrate the tribulation in these passages. It again shows to what measures of deception many Christians are prepared to go to prove that their hatred of Jesus Christ’s return at the Pretribulation Rapture for his own, is justifiable and a curse from the pit of hell, as Paul Benson wrote in his book “A Bucket Full of Holes.” Allow me to remind you, Mr. Paul Benson, what you wrote on page 192 of your book.

A lying tongue hateth those that are afflicted by it; and a flattering mouth worketh ruin. (Proverbs 26:28). Lying lips are abomination to the LORD: but they that deal truly are his delight. (Proverbs 12:22)

Why are the anti-Pretribulation cronies so easily disposed to lies, and then, when their lies are exposed, so deftly prone to devise all kinds of little white lies to cover up their dishonesties?

The main reason ex-Pretribulation aficionados lie so easily is that they must at all cost find a way to circumvent Revelation 3:10 and 1 Thessalonians 5:9, where God promises to keep his saints from the hour of temptation (his righteous judgments and wrath upon the entire world). What do they do to accommodate these two passages?

Oh, that’s easy, they move God’s wrath either to some time between the middle and the end of the Seventieth Week of Daniel (Pre-wrath Rapture) or to the close of the seven-year tribulation (Day of the Lord; Post Tribulation Rapture).

The aridest consequence of both these views is that the seven-year tribulation (Daniel’s Seventieth Week) must be divided into first, man’s wrath and then, God’s wrath.

This explains why Zac Poonen and Paul Benson need to lie about the meaning of the word “tribulation” which supposedly “throughout Scripture is generally always referring to man troubling Christians because of their faith.”

If Zac Poonen’s assertion that “tribulation throughout Scripture is generally always referring to man troubling Christians for their faith,” we would have to conclude that the tribulation Jesus spoke of in Matthew 24 has already existed for over 2000 years.

It also would have meant that God never afflicts mankind with tribulation because it is supposedly a man to man troubling phenomenon because of one’s faith. It is by peace that Antichrist is going to destroy many (Daniel 8:25) and not particularly for the believers’ faith because his seven-year peace treaty will be with the unbelieving Jewish nation.

This alone proves again that the seven-year tribulation does not involve the Church (Bride of Christ) but national Israel who God is going to prepare for his Second Advent at the end of the seven-year tribulation.

Part of his preparation is to allow his people (God the Father’s wife) to commit adultery with other gods (Antichrist and the false prophet), as she had done so many times in the past, for one final time (John 5:43), and to open their eyes to the deception they themselves had allowed to lead them astray when Antichrist sits as the abomination of desolation in the newly built temple in Jerusalem.

“For then,” Jesus said, “shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect’s sake those days shall be shortened.” (Matthew 24:21-22).

Note very carefully that neither the tribulation nor the great tribulation is by any means man troubling Christians for their faith. All flesh (unbelievers and those who will come to faith) will be subjected to tribulation, no matter what their faith is.

If like most adherents to the Pre-wrath and Post-tribulation positions would say, they used to be keen Pretribbers because the pulpits from whence they heard it preached, convinced them of its validity and soundness, why did they abandon one of the grandest doctrines in the bible? “We could not find it in the Bible though we searched for it diligently,” is their most famous mantra when asked why they stopped believing in a Pretribulation Rapture.

My personal opinion is that they also diligently searched the Scriptures in pursuit of the word “Trinity” because the pulpits from whence they heard it, convinced them that God is One and yet three distinct Persons known as God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Ghost.

Did they abandon their belief in the Trinity because they diligently searched the Scriptures and failed to find the word “Trinity” in it? This example just shows how childish the argument of absenteeism really is.

It proves nothing. And so also the term “original sin” never appears in the Bible. Are they going to deny the fact of original sin because the words “original sin” are not found in the Bible? I don’t think so.

In addition to their puerile argument of absenteeism, whenever they cannot deny the appearance of key doctrinal words in the Bible, they shift into second gear which is to rehash the meaning of words that do appear in the Bible.

As we have already pointed out, “tribulation” is one of the words they dishonestly divided into two separate kinds of wrath – the wrath of man during the first 3 ½ years of the seven-year tribulation and God’s wrath during the second 3 ½ years of the seven-year tribulation.

Another word they conveniently changed is the word “imminence.” However, this is enough, for now, to prove that the Pre-wrath and Post-tribulation supporters don’t care a hoot to pull lies out of their “Let’s Get it Right” hats to validate their heresies.

See all our articles on Rapture/Tribulation here.

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Tom Lessing (Discerning the World)

Tom Lessing is the author of the above article. Discerning the World is an internet Christian Ministry based in Johannesburg South Africa. Tom Lessing and Deborah Ellish both own Discerning the World. For more information see the About this Website page below the comments section.

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Derrick Whitehorn

I know that Zac Poonen has most often throughout the years, used the nasb version which does use the word tribulation but only in the New Testament. Here’s a good question; Does God consider intentional or unintention misinformation as sin?
Trying to discredit Zac Poonens moral integrity over an issue like this is very wrong, accusing him of being a pond of satan over one specific translated word in the Bible, without having a well rounded perspective of why he said what he said, is wrong. His church uses the nasb version primarily as the Bible they teach from. Many people in India were born again decades upon decades ago through the NLT also and other versions as well as nasb, they didnt always have accesible kjv bible and thats no big deal being that the bibles original langiage is not english anyway.

Robbie

Also… In one of his sermons Poonen’s errs outweigh the “good”, and they’re far too important to ignore. The Scriptures do not contradict each other, but sadly sometimes man does.
Poonen minimizes God’s sovereignty, by implying that Jesus is unable to “give us victory,” because His victory is dependent upon us. That’s blasphemy.
It appears that Poonen demonstrates an ecumenical view of “believers.” What is his definition of a “believer?” Hell will be full of believers (Matt 7:21-23, James 2:19).

The sad result of being deceived by false teachers or false prophets is not a pleasant one.

“And if the prophet be deceived when he hath spoken a thing, I the Lord have deceived that prophet, and I will stretch out my hand upon him, and will destroy him from the midst of my people Israel. And they shall bear the punishment of their iniquity: the punishment of the prophet shall be even as the punishment of him that seeketh unto him;”
—Ezekiel 14:9-10

“Let them alone: they be blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch.”
—Matthew 14:15

Robbie

No, thank you guys Tom. I always say DTW is a great guide to those who lack discernment..

Philip

I am very thankful that God has been more gracious and merciful towards me than some “Christians” are behaving towards each other.

Philip

Teachings ARE important, that is true. But I have friends in South Africa and have done my best to keep abreast of developments there, and strongly believe that the only hope for that place is to see God’s love shining through believers. It is love – not doctrine – where the power is found to confront Satan’s schemes. Again, proper doctrine guides that love and is very important. BUT – as Simon Roche of the Suidlanders group has been known to use that word in his videos (not in religious discussions, but rather in pointing out limits to obeying insane laws) – if the love which should have first accompanied God’s entrance into your life through the Gospel grows cold, all the doctrine in the world isn’t going to draw to Christ those whom Satan has in his grasp.

Philip

Oh, it looks like someone is trying to draw me into a heated argument. It’s true that after I wrote and posted those prior comments, that I saw how they could be misinterpreted. One of the ministries that has influenced me over the years has been the Calvary Chapel movement which originated out of California about 50 years ago. I can’t count the occasions where I have watched their live broadcasts online that offer hope and grace. Having paid them that compliment, I found Zac Poonen to “hold our feet to the fire” more thoroughly with more explicit doctrine on several counts. I really don’t want to argue with you. I’ll pray for you and your ministry, and invite your prayers for me – and I think that if you are concerned about Zac Poonen, that you should pray for him, too. Then I would say that you are fulfilling Jesus’ commandments about love. I have ordered Zac Poonen’s through-the-Bible book and will look it over as thoroughly as time allows and see if anything you have written holds up. I HAVE found a couple doctrinal points he has taught that – for example – the Calvary Chapel movement directly contradicts, but these do not pertain to salvation, nor really even to becoming a disciple of Jesus (one of those doctrines is the Rapture, which Zac Poonen used to teach but now speaks against).

I don’t think the following is necessarily related to our discussion, but then again as I previously mentioned South Africa where I have friends, let me mention this – I have watched some YouTube videos by Francois DeWet and find it interesting that he disparages some unnamed (thankfully) “prophets” in South Africa who are placing hopes in supernatural developments to offset the ANC movement. I think I may know one of those men whom he disparages. But then he waxes long and detailed about his dreams wherein he thinks that truth may be found about South Africa’s future. I don’t want to wax acidic here, but (love that word)…..is there something in the water down there in SA? It seems that almost every guy I have met or listened to from South Africa is affected by something I have been unable to identify. The closest term I can come up with is “mysticism”. I know the Rusians have been unable to rid themselves of mysticism melded into their Christianity. That’s how Rasputin received open arms welcome with the Czar and his family about 100 years ago.

Here’s my last comment – at this point, my impression of Zac Poonen is that of a teacher who has deepened my thoughts towards the Lord and His word.

Doctrine is important, but if the warring elements in South Africa do not see the love of God amongst His people, nor see its power as an alternative to their history-based hatered and hypocrisies, all the doctrine in the world won’t save your country.

Philip

Actually, I think I do believe in a Rapture, and am surprised that Zac Poonen – despite his otherwise impressive understanding of the Bible – doesn’t believe in it. Some things among Christians shouldn’t be regarded as lies, but as possible misunderstandings. I think you should take far more seriously labeling fellow Christians as liars. Life is short and we haven’t the time for this sort of thing, in my opinion.
I met various SA people while working years ago for an international airline. I could write more, but don’t see that as pertinent to the conversation at this time. .

Philip

I will answer you one last time. As I said before, I have ordered Zac Poonen’s through-the-Bible book and it will take me some time to seriously study his teachings. As of now, I have spent approximately 30 hours watching his videos. I find him to be a deeply thoughtful man whose sincerity and understanding of Scripture I can only say was sorely lacking many years ago when I first went to church. You must know from history that the Christian movement has experienced strong, even bitter, doctrinal divisions. As an example, there are very strongly opinionated people on both sides of the Calvinist position. And I am sure that each side can back up their position with scripture (now I wasn’t there when Ham came upon his drunken and naked father Noah, and so I do not presume to know what act or actions or frame of mind on his part led Noah to curse him. I also do not know whether a drunken man’s cursing is tantamount to an historical reality/judgment of God that should determine national racial policies (I presume from an overall biblical view that this should not be the case). I can understand how it can be irritating to see another person speaking in the name of Christ a doctrine with which you disagree, and possibly a doctrine that is wrong. But to assign to that person evil intentions and to defame his character I believe is wrong and can do harm to unbelievers who are accessing your site and Zac Poonen’s ministry. I would change my mind if it were a matter of fundamental clear doctrine, such as if he began teaching that Jesus wasn’t who He said He was, etc. I will have to leave it there, although if you wish to respons I will visit your site in a day or two and consider what you may wish to say. I hope God will work all things out to His pleasure.

Bro. Nick

Personally – I am very thankful for this article of WARNING which documents the very real spiritual DANGERS of the anti-Biblical teachings of Zac Poonen – for a few years ago I had listened to a number of his messages – but stopped because I was WARNED in my spirit that ‘Something was Wrong’
– I just did a search of my computer – and found that I had ‘saved’ a number of his messages – which I have now deleted
– For “it is written” unto those of who truly are Biblically “saved” and “born again” “believeth” followers of “our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ” – ‘Biblical CHRISTians’ – by the Apostle Paul in 2 Thessalonians, Chapter 3 [AV]:
[1] Finally, brethren, pray for us, that the word of the Lord may have free course, and be glorified, even as it is with you:
[2] And that we may be delivered from UNREASONABLE AND WICKED MEN:
FOR ALL MEN HAVE NOT faith.
[3] But the Lord is faithful, who shall stablish you, and keep you from EVIL.
[4] And we have confidence in the Lord touching you, that ye both do and will do the things which we command you.
[5] And the Lord direct your hearts into the love of God, and into the patient waiting for Christ.
[6] Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye withdraw yourselves from EVERY BROTHER THAT WALKETH DISORDERLY,
AND NOT AFTER the tradition which HE received of us.
[7] For yourselves know how ye ought to follow us:
for we behaved not ourselves disorderly among you;
.

Barnabas

I have never heard of one tom who can discern words of God perfectly without telling a lie.I have heard of zac poonen who preached messages that have blessed me and caused a revival in my Christian journey. You are doing more harm that good,Mr tom. Check your spirituality again, check the spirituality of those who claim to follow you. There is nothing wrong with the wordvof God, but there is something wrong with our hearts.

Barnabas

Mr Tom, I hear the the scriptures been quoted by a wrong spirit, I will know it. It is not what you say that matters but spirit with which you speak. I will accept anyone who says Jesus is Lord.

Robbie

Barnabas Wrote “Mr Tom, I hear the the scriptures been quoted by a wrong spirit, I will know it. It is not what you say that matters but spirit with which you speak. I will accept anyone who says Jesus is Lord.”

As Tom said: “The fact that you will accept anyone who says Jesus is Lord, proves that you are the one who is speaking in the spirit of Antichrist.”

Even devils know He is the only true God.. You accept them too?

Jas 2:19  Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble. 

Mat 8:29  And, behold, they cried out, saying, What have we to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of God? art thou come hither to torment us before the time?

Robbie

So sad Tom, If I’d try to tell you what I encounter I just lose the words. People can’t distinguish between what is of their flesh and what is of the Holy Spirit. I think they just don’t care. Their opinions became as important as their ego.

I realised that pride is very sly in the way that it creeps into our lives undetected by us. We often have no warning signs other than the still small voice of the Holy Spirit which we dismiss as wayward thoughts anyway. Some people will get a spirit of pride because they are putting up defense mechanisms to try and make up for a deficiency that they may feel they have compared to others.
It is as if “we” want the attention and worship that is only due to God…

That makes it harder. I often feel like a sounding bell… and just when I get over it the next generation pops up… and they are worse than the previous one.
It is not always nice to work for God in this earth, but at least the retirement plan is out of this world.

I pray for you guys.

Godfrey Prince

Why does it matter if the trib is pre-rapture or post-rapture? Dissensions over this controversy only divides us when we could be united. Get in touch with Poonen if you so believe he’s wrong. Why not resolve it through discussion than tear one another down Tom?

Mit

It seems to me you are straining at a fly and swallowing a camel. The question is whether or not the Message was true, not whether or not that one word shows up in the OT. I listened to the entire message and found nothing to criticize. If there was an “error” in stating that the word does not appear in the OT, let me categorically state, using your own logic, you are also wrong. The word appears many more times than you say. The word in Hebrew transliterated as tribulation is tsar (Strongs H6862) and according to the Hebrew text, it shows up 105 times. Further, the second and third references you list are not the same word.

It seems you were listening to his message with an ear to find fault. That’s the way the Pharisees listened to Jesus.

Mark

I used to be a member of a “Poonen Church”. Sadly, this in’s by far not his worst or only misrepresentation of scripture!

Rocco Petitti

So one day we will all see that not one of us understands the Bible completely. There are essential and non essential doctrines. Using non essential doctrines to divide and call other brothers in Christ liars and deceivers is not the way to go about it. It seems that anyone who disagrees with Tom is a deceiver, antichrist etc. I’ve listened to Poonen for many years and also know him personally Tom and I can tell you that you are wrong about 5his mans character and love for Christ. It must be nice to sit on a perch and dissect one mans character and question his love for his lord. Nobody reading this is won to Christ by such behavior against another brother.

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