Don’t worry. The American Baptist certainly does not hate you. In the same way that Calvin did not hate Servetus. So, you’ll be okay as long as you don’t visit ‘Geneva’, he warned.

Amanda

Thank you Amanda 🙂

Just like all Calvinists, Grant-53 follows the Law, he is not under a new covenant, he is under the old that is why he (like the Roman Catholic church) can threaten people with death, like his idol and mentor John Calvin. The ‘spirit’ of John Calvin overtakes people who pridefully believe they are Elect by God before they were born and they end up not being able to think for themselves.

I honestly did not know that American Baptists taught this.

Apparently there is a difference now a days between Baptists and Independent Baptists (although some Independents are Calvinists as well). I think in the past (but not sure and up till what date I don’t know either) that Baptists were not Calvinist. They have been infiltrated and overtaken by Calvinists over the years. That is why there was a split to what is called the Independent Baptist. However I read that Calvinists are overtaking the Independents as well, fast and furiously…

I read that Calvinist pastors join a Baptist church, get themselves on the Board, bring in other Calvinist pastors, let them join the Board and then fire the non Calvinist pastors. They then take over the church and the building for free. It’s theft of a church building and it’s doctrine in broad daylight. No kidding.

You wrote: “Your claims hinge on proving John Calvin was a murderer. Produce two or more credible witnesses or suffer the penalty of a false witness.”

If a malicious witness arises to accuse a person of wrongdoing, then both parties to the dispute shall appear before the LORD, before the priests and the judges who are in office in those days. The judges shall inquire diligently, and if the witness is a false witness and has accused his brother falsely, then you shall do to him as he had meant to do to his brother. So you shall purge the evil from your midst. (Deu 19:16-19)

The penalty for murder and then also the penalty for falsely accusing someone [Calvin] of being a murderer:

“Whoever takes a human life shall surely be put to death. (Lev 24:17)

Grant, are you calling for Deborah to be put to death unless she produces two or more reliable witnesses? How exactly do you see this play out in South Africa where there is no death penalty? If not the state, then the church perhaps?

I honestly did not know that American Baptists taught this.

Grant-53

Yous said: “Your claims hinge on proving John Calvin was a murderer. Produce two or more credible witnesses or suffer the penalty of a false witness.”

Ok…let us help you out with this:

Witness One:

Philip Schaff
HISTORY of the CHRISTIAN CHURCH
CHAPTER XVI.

SERVETUS: HIS LIFE. OPINIONS, TRIAL, AND EXECUTION

Taken from:

§ 157. Calvin’s Defence of the Death Penalty for Heretics.

Calvin’s plea for the right and duty of the Christian magistrate to punish heresy by death, stands or falls with his theocratic theory and the binding authority of the Mosaic code. His arguments are chiefly drawn from the Jewish laws against idolatry and blasphemy, and from the examples of the pious kings of Israel. But his arguments from the New Testament are failures. He agrees with Augustin in the interpretation of the parabolic words: “Constrain them to come in” (Luke 14:23).1209 But this can only refer to moral and not to physical force, and would imply a forcible salvation, not destruction. The same parable was afterwards abused by the French bishops to justify the abominable dragoonades of Louis XIV. against the Huguenots. Calvin quotes the passages on the duty of the civil magistrate to use the sword against evil-doers (Rom. 13:4); the expulsion of the profane traffickers from the temple (Matt. 21:12); the judgment on Ananias and Sapphira (Acts 5:1 sqq.); the striking of Elymas with blindness (13:11); and the delivery of Hymenaeus and Alexander to Satan (1 Tim. 1:20). He answers the objections from the parables of the tares and of the net (Matt. 13:30, 49), and from the wise counsel of Gamaliel (Acts 5:34). But he cannot get over those passages which contradict his theory, as Christ’s rebuke to John and James for wishing to call down fire from heaven (Luke 9:54), and to Peter for drawing the sword (Matt. 26:52), his declaration that his kingdom is not of this world (John 18:36), and his whole spirit and aim, which is to save and not to destroy.

In his juvenile work on Seneca and in earlier editions of his Institutes, Calvin had expressed noble sentiments on toleration;1210 even as Augustin did in his writings against the Manichaeans, among whom he himself had lived for nine years; but both changed their views for the worse in their zeal for orthodoxy.

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Witness Two:

Did Calvin Murder Servetus?
Stanford Rives

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Witness Three

John Calvin said:
“If he [Servetus] comes [to Geneva], I shall never let him go out alive if my authority has weight.”

“We have now new business in hand with Servetus. He intended perhaps passing through this city; for it is not yet known with what design he came. But after he had been recognized, I thought that he should be detained. My friend Nicolas summoned him on a capital charge. … I hope that sentence of death will at least be passed upon him”

“Whoever shall now contend that it is unjust to put heretics and blasphemers to death will knowingly and willingly incur their very guilt.

“Honour, glory, and riches shall be the reward of your pains; but above all, do not fail to rid the country of those scoundrels, who stir up the people to revolt against us. Such monsters should be exterminated, as I have exterminated Michael Servetus the Spaniard.”

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Witness Four:

Supporters of Calvin in Geneva

…erected a simple stele in memory of Servetus in 1903, the main text of which served more as an apologetic for Calvin:
Duteous and grateful followers of Calvin our great Reformer, yet condemning an error which was that of his age, and strongly attached to liberty of conscience according to the true principles of his Reformation and gospel, we have erected this expiatory monument. Oct. 27, 1903

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The penalty for murder:

“Whoever takes a human life shall surely be put to death.” (Lev 24:17)

This is what Calvin did, use the Law of Moses to ‘justify’ the murder of Servetus.

John Calvin in subsequent commentaries on mosaic law defends killing heretics: p 133

and another book

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You said: “What I claim is that from my reading of the accounts, Calvin was reluctant to pursue the charge of heresy which at the time was a capital crime.”

I think it is you Grant who is being a false witness.

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Here is a free Google book that can be downloaded. See Chapter 10.

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The Genevan Confession was credited to John Calvin in 1536 by Beza who said Calvin wrote it as a formula of Christian doctrine suited to the church at Geneva.
XIX. Excommunication

Because there are always some who hold God and his Word in contempt, who take account of neither injunction, exhortation nor remonstrance, thus requiring greater chastisement, we hold the discipline of excommunication to be a thing holy and salutary among the faithful, since truly it was instituted by our Lord with good reason. This is in order that the wicked would not by their damnable conduct corrupt the good and dishonor our Lord, and that though proud they may turn to penitence. Therefore we believe that it is expedient according to the ordinance of God that all manifest idolaters, blasphemers, murderers, thieves, lewd persons, false witnesses, sedition-mongers, quarrellers, those guilty of defamation or assault, drukards, dissolute livers, when they have been duly admonished and if they do not make amendment, be separated from the communion of the faithful until their repentance is known.

http://www.creeds.net/reformed/gnvconf.htm

So the maximum punishment for blasphemy was excommunication. Nothing about heresy.

See Sid Calvin murder Servetus
Chapter 12Geneva’s Laws p 167

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Thank you to an anonymous e-mailer who did all this research for Grant-53. Grant-53 stated to us that “The way you form the questions is an indication of your assumptions and limited understanding of history.”

Really Grant? Really? LOL

Stop reading John Calvin’s bible called the Institutes and read the HOLY BIBLE instead.

Johan

Yes it is confusing and Calvinists love to confuse words in verses. That is why people get caught out by it and when the ‘idea’ that you are ‘Elect before you were born’ has grabbed hold of your brain for some terrible reason it’s almost impossible to get rid of it and know the truth. Calvinism is a horrible cult.

Dave Hunt’s book is just fantastic but here is an article that I know will help you in the meantime understand what biblical election/predestination is all about. What it Really Means to be Elected, Chosen, and Predestinated – The Biblical Truth

Please see comment here from Grant-53 who can’t see anything wrong with Freemasonry etc. 2015/06/21 at 3:35 am

To the Calvinist in this article:

I know you are reading this because you follow DTW like a hawk and I am sorry that we are chatting about you like this but maybe you can now see how ridiculous the doctrine of Calvinism is and come to know the real Jesus Christ of the bible. 🙂

Grant

>> I do not know this E. J. Hill person so I will not speculate on his conversions.

Speculation on his conversion? But he was not converted he was ‘Elect’ Grant before he was born.

Double predestination? Yes, Grant this is the one of the most awful lies of Calvinism. Double predestination is the belief that God creates some people whose purpose in existence is to be sent to hell. You misunderstand Romans 9:6-24 (Read Thomas’s comment)

Tell me Grant are you Elect? How do you know you are not part of the group selected to go to hell?

Tell me Grant, where you once hopelessly lost and in need of Jesus Christ?

Also please tell me, if you are a Calvinist what do you need to believe to know you are Elect? Jesus Christ or Jesus Christ and TULIP?

I am so happy you have a wife a 5 kids, that must make you a real super dooper Calvinist.