The Trinity

The Trinity
IS IT POSSIBLE TO BELIEVE IN JESUS CHRIST AND REJECT THE TRINITY?

“Now on the final and most important day of the feast, Jesus stood forth and cried in a loud voice, If any man is thirsty, let him come to me and drink! He who believes in Me as the Scripture has said, Out from his innermost being springs and rivers of living water shall flow (continuously). But He was speaking here of the Spirit, Whom those who believed in Him were afterward to receive. For the Holy Spirit had not yet been given; because Jesus was not yet glorified (raised to honour). (John 7: 37-39).

Satan’s prime strategy from the very beginning of creation has always been to destroy faith by presenting mankind with something that looks like the genuine item. In the parable in Matthew 13: 24-30 the darnel or tares, sown by the enemy, look exactly like wheat in the early stages of its growth and only show its true colours at harvest time.

True to its botanical nature one grain of wheat produces several new ears of wheat only when it dies, a fact taken up by Christ to show that spiritual fruitfulness has its origin in the death of self (John 12: 24; 1 Corinthians 5: 36).

The darnel or tares are completely void of any such botanical traits and remain a wheat-like grass without producing any fruit right up to harvest time. Here Jesus makes it very clear that genuine faith always translates into a change in life, a change of mind, growth and fruitfulness. This is borne out by what Paul says in Hebrews 12: 14, “Follow after peace with all men, and the sanctification without which no man shall see the Lord:”

A biblical founded faith must translate into a growth in sanctification. Please observe that it is not a growth to or up to sanctification, but in sanctification. We are justified by faith alone in Christ alone and in the same way He imputes sanctification to sinners the moment they are saved. From that instant onward the saint must abide in Christ in order to grow in grace and sanctification.

WHAT DETERMINES GENUINE FAITH?

Jesus chose the final and most important day of the Jewish Feast of Tabernacles to announce in a loud voice the only prerequisite for a genuine faith – He who believes in Me as the Scripture has said. Everything necessary to acquire a genuine biblical faith has already been said in God’s Word. Scripture form Genesis 1: 1 through to Revelation 22: 21 contains God’s only and final word on faith and salvation. All other extra-biblical revelations (including Joseph Smith’s Golden Plates, The Jehovah’s Witnesses NWT of the Bible, Roman Catholicism’s Church traditions or any other prophet or visionary’s alleged encounter with Jesus Christ) do not and cannot hold true to Jesus Christ’s words in John 7 and must therefore be rejected.

Having established, on the strength of Jesus’ words in John 7, that holy writ is altogether sufficient for the acquirement of the faith necessary for one’s salvation and sanctification, it is obviously also vital to know the Person or Persons who wrote it.

The validity of a letter or a document is not determined by its own intrinsic value but by the character or the moral fibre of the person who wrote it. People who claim they believe in Jesus Christ but deny that the Bible is the inerrant Word of God, are deceiving themselves and disqualifying themselves as genuine believers. It is impossible to maintain a belief in someone and simultaneously reject his personal biography. In similar vein, everyone who maintains that he/she believes in Jesus Christ, but denies His deity or the Trinity is disavowing the moral fibre and character of the Author of the Bible.

WHO IS THE AUTHOR?

Although the word “Trinity” never appears in the Bible – a fact many of God’s enemies use to discredit the validity of His Word. (Perhaps they should start looking for the word “automobile” or “aeroplane” in Scripture to make sure they really exist) – it is not at all difficult to prove that three Deities (three equally omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent Gods in one Godhood) were involved in producing it.

In His answer to the woman who said, “Blessed is the womb that bore You, and the breasts that You sucked!” Jesus used the word “Theos” when He said, Blessed are they that hear the Word of God (“Theos”) and keep it” (Luke 11: 27) The Greek word “Theos” (God) does not refer to a single person but clearly to the Godhead, comprising of God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit.

In the well-known verse where Paul says that “all scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:” (2 Timothy 3: 16), he uses the Greek word “Theopneustos” (theh-op’-nyoo-stos) which is derived from “Theos” and means that the Word was inspired by all three the Persons in the Godhead or Trinity. Apart from these definitive verses, there are several others where only One of the Persons in the Trinity are mentioned as the inspired source of the Word. Consider the following: “Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom;” (Colossians 3: 16) and “For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.” (2 Peter 1: 21).

WHAT LIES AT THE ROOT OF MANKIND’S REJECTION OF GOD’S WORD?

– Only one thing – unbelief. Anyone who does not believe in the Triune God according to what the Bible teaches cannot claim to be saved. Perhaps they could have avowed with certainty their salvation if Jesus had only said, “He who believes in Me . . .,” but He qualified the kind of faith that is necessary to believe in Him, i.e. “as the Scripture has said.”

The Holy Spirit Who was sent to convict the world of sin, righteousness and judgment will never move outside of the bounds of Holy Writ when leading a sinner to faith in Jesus Christ. Any “belief” or “faith” remotely off limits with the Bible cannot save. If it were true that any kind of faith was able to save, then Jesus lied when he said, “as the Scripture has said.” How can anyone expect to be convicted of sin by the 3rd Person in the Holy Trinity if they reject the Trinity?

In the same breath one may ask, how can anyone expect to be cleansed of their sins if they regard Jesus Christ merely as one of God’s creations? God strictly forbids anyone to worship a created being because it is nothing else than idolatry.

What are the consequences of unbelief? WHAT ARE THE CONSE

a) They do not have the Word of God and no light in them (John 5: 38; Isaiah 8: 20).

b) They cannot please God (Hebrews 11: 6)

c) They malign and discredit the Gospel (Acts 19: 9)

d) They persecute the ministers of righteousness (Romans 15: 31)

e) They incite others against the saints who preach the Gospel (Acts 14: 2).

f) They persevere in their unbelief (John 12: 37).

g) They harden their necks (2 Kings 17: 14).

h) They are condemned already (John 3: 18).

i) The wrath of God abides on them (John 3: 36).

j) They shall die in their sins (John 8: 24).

k) They shall not enter God’s rest (Hebrews 3:19; 4:11).

l) They shall be condemned (Mark 16:16; 2Thessalonians 2:12).

m) They shall be cast in the lake of fire (Revelation 21: 8).

“Since all this is true, we ought to pay much closer attention than ever to the truths that we have heard, lest in any way we drift past [them – the truths] and slip away. For if the message given through angels [that is, the Law spoken by them to Moses] was authentic and proved sure, and every violation and disobedience received an appropriate (just and adequate) penalty. How shall we escape if we neglect and refuse to pay attention to such a great salvation [as is now offered to us, letting it drift past us forever?] For it was declared at first by the Lord [Himself] and it was confirmed to us by those who personally heard [Him speak]. (Hebrews 2: 1-3).

[Therefore] while it is [still] called Today, if you would hear His voice, and when you hear it, do not harden your hearts as in the rebellion . . . Today, if you would hear His voice, and when you hear it, do not harden your hearts.” (Hebrews 3: 15; 4: 7).

“Examine and test and evaluate your own selves, to see whether you are in the faith. Test and prove yourselves, [not Christ]. Do you not yourselves realize and know [thoroughly by an ever-increasing experience] that Jesus Christ is in you? unless you are [counterfeits] disapproved on trial and rejected! (2 Corinthians 13: 5).

IS YOUR SALVATION SECURE IF YOU BELIEVE THAT JESUS IS GOD AND MAN BUT KNEW NOTHING OF THE HOLY SPIRIT? (1 Corinthians 15)

When Paul first presented the Gospel to the Corinthians their thoughts were steeped in Greek Philosophy. The Greeks did not believe in the resurrection of the body as they proved by their attitude when Paul preached to them on Mars Hill (Acts 17:32). They laughed at him.

Their philosophers taught that the body was weak and a wicked prison of the soul, and the sooner it was released through death the better. They refused to accept that the body could live on after death. This was what Paul had to contend with when he wrote them this letter. The Corinthians did not doubt the resurrection of Christ and therefore Paul centred his discourse around this immutable truth in stead of repentance or salvation.

Indeed, something to remember is that Paul’s intention was not to bring them the Gospel. They had already accepted the Gospel and were indeed saved. They were well-acquainted with the Spirit’s work in their lives when they believed in Jesus Christ and His Gospel.

All that Paul needed to do was to prove to them that they, like Christ, would be resurrected from the dead. Furthermore, the resurrection of Christ itself is proof enough of the Holy Spirit’s work in the Gospel of salvation although the Spirit is not mentioned in chapter 15.

In Romans 8: 11 Paul says, “But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwelleth in you, he that raised up Christ Jesus from the dead shall give life also to your mortal bodies through his Spirit that dwelleth in you.” The Corinthians must have known this but could have been confused by false teachers and apostles. So, although the Spirit is not mentioned in chapter 15, His role in the Gospel of salvation is made clear by Paul’s discourse on the resurrection of Christ.

DOES ACTS 19 PROVE IT IS UNNECESSARY TO KNOW OR ACKNOWLEDGE THE HOLY SPIRIT IN THE TRINITY?

Some hold to the view that the twelve men Paul encountered in Ephesus were saved and base their argument on the fact that they were disciples. (verse 1). However the word “mathetes” (disciple) simply means “learner” or “pupil” and was a very well-known concept, especially amongst the Greeks.

Each philosopher had his own group of disciples, much like a professor of today who teaches a class of his own pupils. Because the term disciple was so well-known, Jesus qualified His particular brand of discipleship by His demand to deny oneself, take up the cross, to follow Him and learn from Him. Although the twelve were called disciples (learners or pupils) they were not disciples of Christ, but disciples of John the Baptist

The twelve should have known there was a Holy Spirit because the major thrust of of John the Baptist’s preaching was Christ’s future Baptism with the Holy Spirit and fire (Matthew 3: 11). They should have known the Holy Spirit was to be given, but they were ignorant of the fact that He had already been given on the day of Pentecost.

Note carefully how brilliant Paul approached the problem in the manner he posed the question, “Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?” He did not ask them “Were you baptized by John the Baptist when or after you believed?” or “Do you know the Holy Spirit.” Had he asked them the latter question, they would probably have answered “Yes, we were baptized by John when we believed.” If they had said this and if Paul hadn’t known that the baptism of the Holy Spirit is a spiritual baptism, they would probably have forfeited the wonderful opportunity to be saved (Romans 8:9).

Paul the true gentleman that he was, assumed that they believed but tested their faith by asking them whether they had received the Holy Spirit. Knowing of the existence of the Holy Spirit and receiving Him are two completely different things. Had they indeed been saved they would have known that they had received the Holy Spirit because He and He alone applies the cleansing power of the blood of Christ to a sinner’s soul the moment he/she believes. The testimony of the Spirit within gives the assurance of your salvation (Romans 8: 16) and they did not have that inner witness because they did not even know that the Spirit was already given to quicken them the moment they believed.

So, what was the source of their problem? John the Baptist’s baptism had a two-pronged message attached to it – baptism unto repentance and belief in the One Who was to come after Him. Whether Apollos failed to convey this message in full, we do not know. We do however know that there was a flaw in his presentation of the Gospel because we read in the previous chapter (Acts 18 : 26) that “when Priscilla and Aquila heard him, they took him with them and explained to him the way of God more definitely and accurately.” Whoever preaches the Gospel must present the full council of God.

They received the baptism of John without a full understanding of the necessity for repentance AND FAITH in the One Who baptizes in the Spirit and with fire and therefore was not saved. Ah! but how wonderful and precious is the unmerited grace of God. He did not allow them to continue in their unbelief and sent his servant Paul to present to them His full council.

John 14 from verse 18 shows that the presentation of the Gospel is the responsibility of all three of the Persons in the Trinity. “He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me [GOD THE SON]: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and verse 21). “If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father [GOD THE FATHER] will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him. (verse 23) “These things have I spoken unto you, being yet present with you. whom the Father will send in my name, he [GOD THE HOLY SPIRIT] shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.”(verse 25). Whoever believes as the Scripture has said, will know and believe in the Trinity because all three introduce themselves to the person who comes to Christ for salvation.

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Tom Lessing (Discerning the World)

Tom Lessing is the author of the above article. Discerning the World is an internet Christian Ministry based in Johannesburg South Africa. Tom Lessing and Deborah Ellish both own Discerning the World. For more information see the About this Website page below the comments section.

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Phil

I am a frequent reader of this website. One thing in the article that made me uncomfortable was your reference to ‘three deities’, which would equate to 3 gods in the following part:

WHO IS THE AUTHOR?

Although the word “Trinity” never appears in the Bible — a fact many of God’s enemies use to discredit the validity of His Word. (Perhaps they should start looking for the word “automobile” or “aeroplane” in Scripture to make sure they really exist) — it is not at all difficult to prove that three Deities were involved in producing it.

The God of the Bible is a triune Being of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit—three persons but One God. I would agree that the trinity is 3 persons, but not 3 gods. I have a friend, who likes T.D. Jakes (I used to). He’s OK with the fact that when T.D. Jakes is in Oneness Pentecostal settings, he preaches modalism and when not in those settings he preaches the trinity. I don’t see how you can call yourself a Christian if you don’t believe in the trinity. That’s an article of faith in most churches.

Deborah (Discerning the World)

Phil

4) Now each Person in the Trinity is God, God the Father (John 6:27; Romans 1:7; 1 Peter 1:2). God the Son (John 1:1,14; Romans 9:5; Colossians 2:9; Hebrews 1:8; 1 John 5:20). and God the Holy Spirit (Acts 5:3-4; 1 Corinthians 3:16). But they are not separate GODS as I mentioned earlier, they are all ONE. — http://www.discerningtheworld.com/2013/06/06/understanding-the-trinity-god-the-father-jesus-christ-and-the-holy-spirit

To understand Modulism, please read the above article.

Phil

Deborah,

I read your article, “Understanding The Trinity”, and agree with it 100 percent. You view the trinity just as I do, that being three persons in the one God. However, I personally would change that portion of the above article that calls them three ‘deities’. The online Merriam-Webster dictionary (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/deity) defines deity as the rank or essential nature of a god, a god or goddess, and one exalted or revered as supremely good or powerful. The plural is deities. I know your intent, but when I read that portion of your article I interpret that as three separate Gods. Maybe I’m reading it wrong, I don’t know. Just as you say in the article you had me read, the trinity is very hard to understand.

Thomas,

I view what you posted as you believe in three Gods that are one in purpose. I don’t believe that. I found another article that says it better than I ever could in the Answers in Genesis Website: http://www.answersingenesis.org/articles/2011/07/19/trinity-three-different-gods
As I said above, the trinity is a difficult concept.

Phil

Hans

I understand the Trinity completely from the following scriptures: Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. Joh 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
We have One God with One Spirit, and his Word has the very same Spirit. God’s Word became flesh and introduced us to the Father, to the Spirit of the Father, full of grace and truth.

Deborah (Discerning the World)

Phil

>> I view what you posted as you believe in three Gods that are one in purpose. I don’t believe that.

Let me get this straight, you don’t believe that Jesus Christ is God?

And just to let you know there is subordination within the Godhead.

5)There is actually subordination within the Godhead.
The Bible teaches us that the Holy Spirit is subordinate to God the Father and Jesus Christ the Son.
Jesus Christ is subordinate to God the Father.
This is how their relationship words and it does not deny the deity of any person within the Godhead. Concerning Jesus Christ the Son see (Luke 22:42; John 5:36; John 20:21, and 1 John 4:14). Concerning the Holy Spirit see (John 14:16,14:26; 15:26,16:7, and most importantly see (John 16:13-14.)

– See more at: http://www.discerningtheworld.com/2013/06/06/understanding-the-trinity-god-the-father-jesus-christ-and-the-holy-spirit/#sthash.uA8fGgru.dpuf

Phil

I believe in God the Father, God the Son, and the God the Holy Spirit. They are one God. They are not three Gods. Deborah, I said I agree with your article, “Understanding The Trinity”. You state in the second paragraph, the following: “The Trinity is ONE God existing in three separate Persons. Now realise this just because we say three Persons does not mean there are three separate Gods, there is only ONE God. Now the world Trinity is not found in the bible, it is only a word used to describe the “trinue” Godhead, that being three co-external, co-existent Persons who make up ONE God. – See more at: http://www.discerningtheworld.com/?s=Understanding+the+trinity&submit.x=0&submit.y=0&submit=Search#sthash.UkWRcOyT.dpuf The three deities part of the above article just rubs me the wrong way. I see we’re not going to agree. To me, this is one of those things that gives Muslims fuel for the fire to claim that we worship multiple gods (deities). Christianity differentiates itself from the false religions that have multiple gods, because we worship ‘one’ God. And yes I know that there is a subordination.

Deborah (Discerning the World)

Phil

I get what you are saying, I will amend the article and remove the word deities and replace it with something more appropriate.

I just went to check the article and I see it’s already been edited. Either Thomas did this, or I did this when I was sleep walking lol.

Phil

Deborah,

That’s great to hear. However, the three deities part is still in this article under the WHO IS THE AUTHOR? section.

By the way, I love your articles that are against the teachings of Calvinism. There are only a few discernment sites out there that speak against it, the Berean Call being one of them. I have to overlook that aspect when learning about the other heresies that are out there. I follow about 9 discernment sites on a regular basis, yours being one of them. I initially got into learning about the different heresies, due to the teachings of a pastor of one of the churches I used to attend. He started to use extra biblical books (Gospel of Thomas, Book of Enoch), talk about the Nephilim a lot, and support the teachings of dominionism via a book by John Bevere called “Relentless.” Other Christians I know think that all these sites are negative and are only out to tear people apart. They don’t think I should view them. I don’t see it that way. There is a bunch of heresy out there that I wouldn’t have known about and just gone with the flow, if not for sites like this. A friend says, if you’re truly a Christian, that the Holy Spirit will warn you (put that check in your spirit) if something is wrong. She doesn’t see a need for sites like this. I disagree.

LR

Consider this:
“To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.” 2 Cor 5:19

Let’s ask these questions:

1. Who was in Christ? All three? Only the Son?
2. Himself is singular and masculine. Why not themselves?
3. Assuming all three persons in the Trinity are omnipresent, then the term “God” always means all three persons. Does this mean all three persons reconciled the world via calvary?

Phil

Thomas,

You didn’t read my entire post. I got the quote “The Trinity is ONE GOD existing in three separate Persons” from Deborah’s article in the following link:

http://www.discerningtheworld.com/2013/06/06/understanding-the-trinity-god-the-father-jesus-christ-and-the-holy-spirit/#sthash.uA8fGgru.dpuf

Christianity is not polytheism, it’s monotheism. Is it One True God or Three True Gods? It seems that you’re saying it’s the latter. As I said in a previous quote, I believe that all three are God. God the Father is on His throne, God the Son is at the Father’s right hand interceding for the saints, and God the Holy Spirit is in all believers. However, there is only one God (deity). You’re not going to find a lot of people out there that think it’s three Gods (deities). I found an article on the Christian Apologetics & Research Ministry (CARM) that explains how it is that the Trinity could not be three Gods:

http://carm.org/christianity/christian-doctrine/trinity-really-teaching-there-are-three-gods

There’s no way to completely understand the trinity with our finite minds.

Thomas

>> What is more appropriate than the word “deity,” especially in the context of the One True God? Phil seems to think “person” or “persons” are more appropriate. In that case “person” or “persons” are ranked higher than “deity” making us mere mortals higher and greater than God or at least equal to Him.

You are right, I have been looking to find a word more appropriate and I can’t. I think the fact is this, as you say, they are 3 Gods(deity) in the context of One True God. If the context of “One true God” was not there then that would be a big problem.

Thomas/Phil

I think what concerns Phil is the fact that the word ‘deities‘ in the Merriam-Webster dictionary refers to a god or goddess in a polytheistic religion. However Deity can also be used in Theology where Christianity’s God is monotheistic.

Deity (ˈdeɪtɪ; ˈdiːɪ-)
n
1. (Theology) the Deity the Supreme Being; God
deity (ˈdeɪtɪ; ˈdiːɪ-)
n, pl -ties
1. a god or goddess
2. (Theology) the state of being divine; godhead
3. (Theology) the rank, status, or position of a god
4. (Theology) the nature or character of God
[C14: from Old French, from Late Latin deitās, from Latin deus god]
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/deities

Thomas

This is the link that Phil posted (unfortunately it’s from a Calvinist website)

    The Trinity is really teaching there are three gods

    By definition the Trinity doctrine teaches that there is only one God. Nevertheless, there are those who assert that the Trinity is really teaching three separate gods. They claim it is either impossible for God to exist in three persons and/or that the Trinity is really borrowed from pagan three-god figures. Many add that a person is by necessity an individual being. Therefore, they conclude, that the Trinity really teaches three gods. The problem with this criticism is that it denies the very nature of the doctrine.

    First of all, Trinitarianism by definition denies that there is more than one God. It is clearly monotheistic in spite of what the critics want to claim.

    Second, there is a word used to describe a unity of three separate gods. It is the word “triad.” A triad is not a trinity. A triad is three separate gods — as in Mormonism. A Trinity is one God in three persons. A triad is polytheistic. A trinity is monotheistic.

    Third, there is no logical reason to deny the possibility that three persons can exist in one God. Critics may not like it, but it is not a logical impossibility. God is infinitely complex and we cannot understand His vastness nor simply claim He can’t exist in three persons. Instead, we should look at the Bible to see what it says about God and see if the Trinity is taught. But, that is another subject.

    Theologians admit that the word “person” is not the perfect word to use because it carries with it the idea of individuals who are different beings. This is what we are familiar with and this is one of the problems with using the term “person” when describing the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. But this is what we must use when we see that when the Bible speaks of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, each are called God, each speak, and each have a will. They exhibit attributes of personhood. In describing what we observe, we are forced to use words that we are familiar with. “Person” is just such a word. But it does not necessitate here that each person is an individual being.

    And fourth, trinities are known and accepted by people as observed in nature. By analogy we see that creation itself is Trinitarian. Time is past, present, and future. There are not three times. Each part of the whole of time is by nature time yet there are not three times but one. Likewise, space is height, width, and depth. Matter is solid, liquid, and gas. The Bible says that God’s invisible attributes are made known in creation:

    Rom. 1:20: “For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse.”

    When the critics of Trinitarianism say it really teaches three gods, they demonstrate their lack of understanding of the doctrine and they either purposefully or mistakenly confuse it with something it is not. Trinitarianism denies and opposes the idea that there is more than one God. It is by definition, monotheistic.
    –http://carm.org/christianity/christian-doctrine/trinity-really-teaching-there-are-three-gods

———–

We are not teaching that there are three Gods. My goodness. What we are saying is that the Person of Father, the Person of Jesus Christ and the Person of the Holy Spirit are deity, they are God.

Joe

Thomas, thanks for the reply. Pity it is in the wrong post. I will not be commenting further over here since it is very clear that you have to be right no matter what. The person who posted under Phil in this very post was clearly saying the same thing as you. It was quite easy to see. Nonetheless you are having a go at him because you do not like the fact that he questioned your use of the word “deities”. My friend you need to show a little humility and kindness to your fellow brothers and sisters.

Deborah (Discerning the World)

Joe

>> I will not be commenting further over here since it is very clear that you have to be right no matter what.

So what you are saying is that we must agree with your false teaching 🙂 Sorry, we can’t do that.

>> The person who posted under Phil in this very post was clearly saying the same thing as you. It was quite easy to see. Nonetheless you are having a go at him because you do not like the fact that he questioned your use of the word “deities”. My friend you need to show a little humility and kindness to your fellow brothers and sisters

Yes Thomas and Phil are saying the same thing, but it is Phil who has the problem with the word ‘deities’ and he is questioning our beliefs.

Joe

Debbie

We will agree to disagree on election. You can call it error that is fine by me since it is very clear that the fact that the scriptures use the word “elect” over and over should tell you something. Just cut the word “elect” and the relating etymological words out of the Bible if it makes you more comfortable.
Phil is most certainly not questioning your beliefs. He believes the same thing as you. If he is questioning your beliefs then why do you write that Thomas and Phil are saying the same thing? The issue as I said before is that you do not like being questioned, even on a simple thing such as word usage. As I said before you need to show a little humility and kindness to your fellow brothers and sisters. By the way admit when you are wrong for it is the way of the cross.

Deborah (Discerning the World)

Dear Joe

To understand TRUE Predestination please read this article: What it Really Means to be Elected, Chosen, and Predestinated – The Biblical Truth

You become one of the Elect after you get saved, you are not one of the Elect chosen by God to be saved.

    Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied. 1 Peter 1:2

>> We will agree to disagree on election.

No we will not. There is a right and a wrong way, not a half truth.

Joe

Deborah
I will read the article you have suggested dealing with predestination.

[DTW deleted rest of comment – you are looking for trouble – Please don’t comment again]

Hans

Sometimes I am unsure of the exact meaning of words and would rather refrain from those words. God made Himself known to me by His word. The Father’s word conveys the message of what He wants to make known and of what He purposes. The Spirit of the Father is also conveyed in His word. God’s word is not without his Spirit, and Jesus Christ is the word of God in the flesh. This proves One God, being a Trinity.

Joe

Thomas, thank you for the reply. I am certainly not a humble man. I have seen true humility in my Saviour who humbled himself to the point of death on the cross. That stupid I am not.

You said, “The word election appears in the Bible, yes, but there is no such thing as election unto salvation. To say there is such a thing as election unto salvation is not only being wrong. It is pure heresy.”

You seem to be saying the same thing as Deborah who recommended that I read the following;
To understand TRUE Predestination please read this article: What it Really Means to be Elected, Chosen, and Predestinated – The Biblical Truth

Do you agree with Deborah that I should read that article and is it also your position?

Joe

Am I to understand that you just refuse to publish anything I write because you think I am making trouble. Please show me where I have made trouble. I have been gracious to you all the while although you have not showed me the same. You just do not like to be challenged. Does Thomas agree with the article you asked me to read Deborah? Just say yes or no.

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