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	Comments on: Prof Johan Malan &#8211; A Gospel of Works &#8211; Second Work of Grace (Part 5)	</title>
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	<link>https://www.discerningtheworld.com/2013/08/18/prof-johan-malan-a-gospel-of-works-second-work-of-grace-part-5/</link>
	<description>Discerning Biblical Answers for Christians in Todays World</description>
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		<title>
		By: Tom Lessing (Discerning the World)		</title>
		<link>https://www.discerningtheworld.com/2013/08/18/prof-johan-malan-a-gospel-of-works-second-work-of-grace-part-5/#comment-496278</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Tom Lessing (Discerning the World)]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 03 Nov 2020 16:43:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.discerningtheworld.com/?p=14978#comment-496278</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[In reply to &lt;a href=&quot;https://www.discerningtheworld.com/2013/08/18/prof-johan-malan-a-gospel-of-works-second-work-of-grace-part-5/#comment-496276&quot;&gt;Bic&lt;/a&gt;.

Hi Bic. The command is &quot;Be ye holy for I am holy. (1 Peter 1:13-16). God&#039;s holiness amounts to 100% sinlessness. He is completely and utterly separated from sin, and that is why we cannot possibly see Him in our present and temporal earthly bodies. We need to be changed and given bodies like that of Jesus, i.e. completely sinless. Only then can we see God in heaven and be with Him forevermore. &quot;Be ye holy&quot; does not mean that we are already holy (sinless) (1 John 1:8-10). The word &quot;ginomai&quot; conveys the meaning of progressively becoming holy. We are not yet there but we shall be when Jesus returns at the Pre-trib Rapture.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In reply to <a href="https://www.discerningtheworld.com/2013/08/18/prof-johan-malan-a-gospel-of-works-second-work-of-grace-part-5/#comment-496276" >Bic</a>.</p>
<p>Hi Bic. The command is &#8220;Be ye holy for I am holy. (1 Peter 1:13-16). God&#8217;s holiness amounts to 100% sinlessness. He is completely and utterly separated from sin, and that is why we cannot possibly see Him in our present and temporal earthly bodies. We need to be changed and given bodies like that of Jesus, i.e. completely sinless. Only then can we see God in heaven and be with Him forevermore. &#8220;Be ye holy&#8221; does not mean that we are already holy (sinless) (1 John 1:8-10). The word &#8220;ginomai&#8221; conveys the meaning of progressively becoming holy. We are not yet there but we shall be when Jesus returns at the Pre-trib Rapture.</p>
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		<item>
		<title>
		By: Bic		</title>
		<link>https://www.discerningtheworld.com/2013/08/18/prof-johan-malan-a-gospel-of-works-second-work-of-grace-part-5/#comment-496276</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Bic]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 03 Nov 2020 15:26:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.discerningtheworld.com/?p=14978#comment-496276</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Although there are different types of holiness, for me the holiness without which no one will see God of Hebrews 12:14, is the holiness that God grants us at the moment of believing in Jesus Christ, at the very moment of being saved. Because by believing in Christ we are holy.

That is my personal opinion.
I&#039;m right?]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Although there are different types of holiness, for me the holiness without which no one will see God of Hebrews 12:14, is the holiness that God grants us at the moment of believing in Jesus Christ, at the very moment of being saved. Because by believing in Christ we are holy.</p>
<p>That is my personal opinion.<br />
I&#8217;m right?</p>
]]></content:encoded>
		
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		<title>
		By: Tom Lessing (Discerning the World)		</title>
		<link>https://www.discerningtheworld.com/2013/08/18/prof-johan-malan-a-gospel-of-works-second-work-of-grace-part-5/#comment-259021</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Tom Lessing (Discerning the World)]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 19 Aug 2013 13:25:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.discerningtheworld.com/?p=14978#comment-259021</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[In reply to &lt;a href=&quot;https://www.discerningtheworld.com/2013/08/18/prof-johan-malan-a-gospel-of-works-second-work-of-grace-part-5/#comment-258780&quot;&gt;Irma&lt;/a&gt;.

Irma,

Analogies are always a good way to describe spiritual truths, such as the one you used. Nonetheless, many Christians make the mistake to use Israel&#039;s wandering in the desert and their subsequent failure to enter the Promised Land because of their unbelief as an example to prove that many saints are not going to make it when the Rapture eventually occurs. Like most of the Israelite, they say, many saints are going to remain behind at the Rapture and will have to bear the brunt of the Antichrist&#039;s wrath during the Great Tribulation. The fact, however, is that the saints who are going to be beheaded during the Great Tribulation are not some of the carnally minded saints who now make up the Bride of Christ and who allegedly are going to remain behind because they never sought to achieve a second work of grace (or blessing), as Malan claims; they are gentiles and Jews who are going to be saved during the tribulation.

Please bear in mind that the majority of the Israelite did not enter the Promised Land because of carnality but because of unbelief (Hebrews 3:19; Hebrews 4:6; Hebrews 4:11). Malan&#039;s argument involves carnality due to the lack of a second work of grace (or blessing) and not unbelief. Therefore, the analogy cannot be applied to the present day saints who now make up the Bride of Christ because they are not in unbelief. Yes, some of them do not believe in the Rapture per se but it does not nullify their belief in Jesus Christ as their Saviour. They are going to be raptured whether they believe in the Pre-Trib Rapture or not.

If a repentant sinner becomes a completely new creation at his/her new birth (2 Corinthians 5: 17) then every single saint is on par with God&#039;s standard of holiness (encapsulated wholly, completely and perfectly in the new creation). In God&#039;s view all of us are brand new creatures in Christ Jesus - nothing more and nothing less. I&#039;m not saying that saints are already perfect in holiness and sanctification. Far from it. I&#039;m saying that God sees his saints in Christ Jesus and as such He already sees them as perfectly holy beings in Christ when He returns at the Rapture. In the very same way God already sees us in Christ in heaven where we are seated with Him at the right hand of God, despite the fact that we are still here on earth. (Ephesians 2:3-6). But what about Hebrews 12:14 which says that no one will see God without holiness (hagiasmos). Does that mean a saint&#039;s degree of holiness, now in this life, determines whether he or she may see God or not and whether he/she is going to be raptured or not? Perish the thought. God&#039;s perfect holiness demands nothing less than that we too be perfectly holy so that we may be granted the privilege to see Him. Are any of us already perfectly holy? I don&#039;t think so. There is not a single saint on earth who can boast that he/she is already perfectly holy and therefore perfectly ready to see God. Saints will only be perfectly holy and hence perfectly ready to see God when their corruptible bodies are changed to incorruptible bodies (like unto the body of Jesus&#039; resurrected body). This will occur at the Pre-Trib Rapture (1 Corinthians 15:51-55).

How then should we interpret Hebrews 12:14? It simply means that all the saints who are now engaged in a battle between the flesh and the spirit (Galatians 5:17) in order to live a holy (separated) life unto God shall be made perfectly holy when at last they shall see God in their perfectly holy and incorruptible bodies like unto that of Jesus. Henceforth, the verse rather conveys the fact that all sinners shall be perfectly holy (God&#039;s ultimate standard) when they shall be changed in the twinkling of an eye at the Rapture and not that they should strive or seek for a second work of grace so that they may be holy enough this side of the grave in order to see God or to be raptured. The level of one&#039;s victory over carnality lies not in the seeking after a second blessing (second work of grace) but in our daily obedience to Christ by denying ourselves, taking up our cross (dying to ourselves) and to follow Him. Are we all on par with God&#039;s standard in this regard? I don&#039;t think so because many saints either neglect the command to deny themselves, take up their cross and follow Jesus or they have been taught incorrectly that taking up your cross pertains to a saint&#039;s suffering, hardships and persecution. The cross has nothing to do with these latter things. It means one thing and one thing only - to die to one&#039;s carnal nature. 

If it were true that many saints are going to miss out on the Rapture because they missed the &quot;second-blessing-boat&quot; or forfeited a second work of grace, 1 Corinthians 3:11-16 would have been a complete misnomer. Note carefully that Paul is speaking to saints in whom the Holy Spirit dwells (verse 16). And yet there are some among those in whom the Holy Spirit dwells whose carnal disposition (building with wood, hay, stubble) will have an effect on their rewards but will not impede their being raptured in any way. As a matter of fact, the saints who built on the foundation (Jesus Christ) using wood, hay and stubble (all carnally imbued materials) will appear together with the rest who built on the foundation with gold, silver and precious stones (all Holy Spirit imbued materials) at the Bema Throne judgment which takes place in heaven after the Pre-Trib Rapture. So, it proves beyond any doubt that the carnally disposed saints are also going to be raptured despite Malan&#039;s claim that they are going to remain behind because they never sought and attained a second work of grace. Furthermore, verse 16 which plainly says that the Holy Spirit dwells in both the spiritually mature and the spiritually immature (carnally minded Christians who build with wood, hay and stubble on the foundation) proves that both the mature and immature must of necessity be raptured. How do we know? Well, Paul provides the answer in 2 Thessalonians 2:6 &quot;And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.&quot; There is only One Person who can withhold and restrain the Antichrist from being revealed and that is the Holy Spirit. If the Holy Spirit dwells in both the spiritually mature and the spiritually immature (carnally minded) Christians as we&#039;ve seen from 1 Corinthians 3:11-16, then both these groups (shall we call them the &quot;gold, silver and precious stones&quot; group and the &quot;wood, hay and stubble group&quot;) MUST of necessity be raptured. If the latter group were to remain behind because the door will allegedly be shut on them by virtue of their lack of a second work of grace, then the Holy Spirit will have to be taken out of the way only partially. That&#039;s impossible.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In reply to <a href="https://www.discerningtheworld.com/2013/08/18/prof-johan-malan-a-gospel-of-works-second-work-of-grace-part-5/#comment-258780" >Irma</a>.</p>
<p>Irma,</p>
<p>Analogies are always a good way to describe spiritual truths, such as the one you used. Nonetheless, many Christians make the mistake to use Israel&#8217;s wandering in the desert and their subsequent failure to enter the Promised Land because of their unbelief as an example to prove that many saints are not going to make it when the Rapture eventually occurs. Like most of the Israelite, they say, many saints are going to remain behind at the Rapture and will have to bear the brunt of the Antichrist&#8217;s wrath during the Great Tribulation. The fact, however, is that the saints who are going to be beheaded during the Great Tribulation are not some of the carnally minded saints who now make up the Bride of Christ and who allegedly are going to remain behind because they never sought to achieve a second work of grace (or blessing), as Malan claims; they are gentiles and Jews who are going to be saved during the tribulation.</p>
<p>Please bear in mind that the majority of the Israelite did not enter the Promised Land because of carnality but because of unbelief (Hebrews 3:19; Hebrews 4:6; Hebrews 4:11). Malan&#8217;s argument involves carnality due to the lack of a second work of grace (or blessing) and not unbelief. Therefore, the analogy cannot be applied to the present day saints who now make up the Bride of Christ because they are not in unbelief. Yes, some of them do not believe in the Rapture per se but it does not nullify their belief in Jesus Christ as their Saviour. They are going to be raptured whether they believe in the Pre-Trib Rapture or not.</p>
<p>If a repentant sinner becomes a completely new creation at his/her new birth (2 Corinthians 5: 17) then every single saint is on par with God&#8217;s standard of holiness (encapsulated wholly, completely and perfectly in the new creation). In God&#8217;s view all of us are brand new creatures in Christ Jesus &#8211; nothing more and nothing less. I&#8217;m not saying that saints are already perfect in holiness and sanctification. Far from it. I&#8217;m saying that God sees his saints in Christ Jesus and as such He already sees them as perfectly holy beings in Christ when He returns at the Rapture. In the very same way God already sees us in Christ in heaven where we are seated with Him at the right hand of God, despite the fact that we are still here on earth. (Ephesians 2:3-6). But what about Hebrews 12:14 which says that no one will see God without holiness (hagiasmos). Does that mean a saint&#8217;s degree of holiness, now in this life, determines whether he or she may see God or not and whether he/she is going to be raptured or not? Perish the thought. God&#8217;s perfect holiness demands nothing less than that we too be perfectly holy so that we may be granted the privilege to see Him. Are any of us already perfectly holy? I don&#8217;t think so. There is not a single saint on earth who can boast that he/she is already perfectly holy and therefore perfectly ready to see God. Saints will only be perfectly holy and hence perfectly ready to see God when their corruptible bodies are changed to incorruptible bodies (like unto the body of Jesus&#8217; resurrected body). This will occur at the Pre-Trib Rapture (1 Corinthians 15:51-55).</p>
<p>How then should we interpret Hebrews 12:14? It simply means that all the saints who are now engaged in a battle between the flesh and the spirit (Galatians 5:17) in order to live a holy (separated) life unto God shall be made perfectly holy when at last they shall see God in their perfectly holy and incorruptible bodies like unto that of Jesus. Henceforth, the verse rather conveys the fact that all sinners shall be perfectly holy (God&#8217;s ultimate standard) when they shall be changed in the twinkling of an eye at the Rapture and not that they should strive or seek for a second work of grace so that they may be holy enough this side of the grave in order to see God or to be raptured. The level of one&#8217;s victory over carnality lies not in the seeking after a second blessing (second work of grace) but in our daily obedience to Christ by denying ourselves, taking up our cross (dying to ourselves) and to follow Him. Are we all on par with God&#8217;s standard in this regard? I don&#8217;t think so because many saints either neglect the command to deny themselves, take up their cross and follow Jesus or they have been taught incorrectly that taking up your cross pertains to a saint&#8217;s suffering, hardships and persecution. The cross has nothing to do with these latter things. It means one thing and one thing only &#8211; to die to one&#8217;s carnal nature. </p>
<p>If it were true that many saints are going to miss out on the Rapture because they missed the &#8220;second-blessing-boat&#8221; or forfeited a second work of grace, 1 Corinthians 3:11-16 would have been a complete misnomer. Note carefully that Paul is speaking to saints in whom the Holy Spirit dwells (verse 16). And yet there are some among those in whom the Holy Spirit dwells whose carnal disposition (building with wood, hay, stubble) will have an effect on their rewards but will not impede their being raptured in any way. As a matter of fact, the saints who built on the foundation (Jesus Christ) using wood, hay and stubble (all carnally imbued materials) will appear together with the rest who built on the foundation with gold, silver and precious stones (all Holy Spirit imbued materials) at the Bema Throne judgment which takes place in heaven after the Pre-Trib Rapture. So, it proves beyond any doubt that the carnally disposed saints are also going to be raptured despite Malan&#8217;s claim that they are going to remain behind because they never sought and attained a second work of grace. Furthermore, verse 16 which plainly says that the Holy Spirit dwells in both the spiritually mature and the spiritually immature (carnally minded Christians who build with wood, hay and stubble on the foundation) proves that both the mature and immature must of necessity be raptured. How do we know? Well, Paul provides the answer in 2 Thessalonians 2:6 &#8220;And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.&#8221; There is only One Person who can withhold and restrain the Antichrist from being revealed and that is the Holy Spirit. If the Holy Spirit dwells in both the spiritually mature and the spiritually immature (carnally minded) Christians as we&#8217;ve seen from 1 Corinthians 3:11-16, then both these groups (shall we call them the &#8220;gold, silver and precious stones&#8221; group and the &#8220;wood, hay and stubble group&#8221;) MUST of necessity be raptured. If the latter group were to remain behind because the door will allegedly be shut on them by virtue of their lack of a second work of grace, then the Holy Spirit will have to be taken out of the way only partially. That&#8217;s impossible.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Deborah (Discerning the World)		</title>
		<link>https://www.discerningtheworld.com/2013/08/18/prof-johan-malan-a-gospel-of-works-second-work-of-grace-part-5/#comment-258881</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Deborah (Discerning the World)]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 19 Aug 2013 05:40:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.discerningtheworld.com/?p=14978#comment-258881</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[In reply to &lt;a href=&quot;https://www.discerningtheworld.com/2013/08/18/prof-johan-malan-a-gospel-of-works-second-work-of-grace-part-5/#comment-258780&quot;&gt;Irma&lt;/a&gt;.

Irma

That is a fantastic analogy, however just to be clear, sanctification begins at the moment of conversion and although it might appear like a second work it is not, just because the change in the person takes longer or slower from one person to the next does not mean we need to seek after this &#039;experience&#039; called a second work of grace that will somehow make you &#039;perfect&#039;. 

But thanks for your comment, I like it a lot:)]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In reply to <a href="https://www.discerningtheworld.com/2013/08/18/prof-johan-malan-a-gospel-of-works-second-work-of-grace-part-5/#comment-258780" >Irma</a>.</p>
<p>Irma</p>
<p>That is a fantastic analogy, however just to be clear, sanctification begins at the moment of conversion and although it might appear like a second work it is not, just because the change in the person takes longer or slower from one person to the next does not mean we need to seek after this &#8216;experience&#8217; called a second work of grace that will somehow make you &#8216;perfect&#8217;. </p>
<p>But thanks for your comment, I like it a lot:)</p>
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		<title>
		By: Irma		</title>
		<link>https://www.discerningtheworld.com/2013/08/18/prof-johan-malan-a-gospel-of-works-second-work-of-grace-part-5/#comment-258780</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Irma]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 18 Aug 2013 22:44:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.discerningtheworld.com/?p=14978#comment-258780</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[We find a concept here that goes by many names - baptism with the Holy Spirit [HS], second work of grace, being filled by the Spirit, second blessing, etc. As I understand it, and experienced it in my own life, we definitely receive the HS at conversion in full - we become a new being: everything is there, but it is like a puzzle - the full picture is on the outside of the box, but when you open it, it is a bit of a mess. We have all of the Holy Spirit but the Holy Spirit does not have all of us. Depending on what you understand, or how you are taught, some people make a total commitment at conversion, and truly submit everything of self, and they have a deep consciousness of God&#039;s presence [they are not sinless, but truly given over to obedience with all their heart, like a handmaid with her eye on the master]. Others still reserve part of their will, and they do not have that deep awareness of the HS. Some gradually give over the aspects of their lives, and gradually become more aware of the HS&#039;s presence. Others continue in carnality for a time, trying to be Christ like in their own strength, and they fail miserably, until they get to the point where they hit rock bottom and they truly surrender up everything to Christ. That is when they become aware of the presence of the HS. For a lack of understanding or proper teaching, they truly experience it as a second work. Actually, people can have a number of such experiences in their lives. Many Christians indeed experience two phases for exactly the above reason. You find an analogy in the history of Israel. They start off as slaves [unsaved and doomed], they are redeemed by the blood of the lamb [saved by the blood of the Lamb], goes through the Red Sea [baptised with the HS], they are in the desert where their only source is God separated from the world, they receive the law, build the tabernacle with joy, experience God in their midst and they reach the promised land, but for a lack of faith in and submission to God, they refuse to enter knowing that they cannot possibly conquer in own strength, so they remain in the desert. The law is in stone and they battle to keep it [Christian trying in own flesh, not having yielded everything, without a victorious life - note: not sinless]. They remain in the desert, while they could have been in the promised land. Finally they come to the end of the fleshly generation, and they enter victoriously [total submission - experiencing the power of the HS]. Judah immediately takes possession of his share, but then the leaders die and some of the brothers compromise and they mix with Canaanites, or some even have to flee from the enemy [took back their total submission, though they were in the promised land]. Back to the puzzle - as you grow in knowledge and through your quiet times, you are being changed in the inner man and you submit more and more of your life - the puzzles pieces are being packed out and you see more of Christ and less of self.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>We find a concept here that goes by many names &#8211; baptism with the Holy Spirit [HS], second work of grace, being filled by the Spirit, second blessing, etc. As I understand it, and experienced it in my own life, we definitely receive the HS at conversion in full &#8211; we become a new being: everything is there, but it is like a puzzle &#8211; the full picture is on the outside of the box, but when you open it, it is a bit of a mess. We have all of the Holy Spirit but the Holy Spirit does not have all of us. Depending on what you understand, or how you are taught, some people make a total commitment at conversion, and truly submit everything of self, and they have a deep consciousness of God&#8217;s presence [they are not sinless, but truly given over to obedience with all their heart, like a handmaid with her eye on the master]. Others still reserve part of their will, and they do not have that deep awareness of the HS. Some gradually give over the aspects of their lives, and gradually become more aware of the HS&#8217;s presence. Others continue in carnality for a time, trying to be Christ like in their own strength, and they fail miserably, until they get to the point where they hit rock bottom and they truly surrender up everything to Christ. That is when they become aware of the presence of the HS. For a lack of understanding or proper teaching, they truly experience it as a second work. Actually, people can have a number of such experiences in their lives. Many Christians indeed experience two phases for exactly the above reason. You find an analogy in the history of Israel. They start off as slaves [unsaved and doomed], they are redeemed by the blood of the lamb [saved by the blood of the Lamb], goes through the Red Sea [baptised with the HS], they are in the desert where their only source is God separated from the world, they receive the law, build the tabernacle with joy, experience God in their midst and they reach the promised land, but for a lack of faith in and submission to God, they refuse to enter knowing that they cannot possibly conquer in own strength, so they remain in the desert. The law is in stone and they battle to keep it [Christian trying in own flesh, not having yielded everything, without a victorious life &#8211; note: not sinless]. They remain in the desert, while they could have been in the promised land. Finally they come to the end of the fleshly generation, and they enter victoriously [total submission &#8211; experiencing the power of the HS]. Judah immediately takes possession of his share, but then the leaders die and some of the brothers compromise and they mix with Canaanites, or some even have to flee from the enemy [took back their total submission, though they were in the promised land]. Back to the puzzle &#8211; as you grow in knowledge and through your quiet times, you are being changed in the inner man and you submit more and more of your life &#8211; the puzzles pieces are being packed out and you see more of Christ and less of self.</p>
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