Jacob Prasch – Moderate Calvinists are Good, Hyper Calvinists are Bad.
One of Satan’s greatest lies is to try and convince you that there are different types of Calvinists, that being the moderate Calvinist and then the hyper Calvinist. It is a load of nonsense. All Calvinists are Calvinists who follow a doctrine compiled by demons and their pope is John Calvin a murderer of men, women and children.
Moriel Ministries says,
“While Moriel and Jacob Prasch are not Calvinistic and do not accept unconditional “Once Saved Always Saved” (as neither did John Wesley), a distinction must be made between moderate Calvinists and extreme ones. While we do not agree with John MacArthur on a few issues (his interpretation of eternal security and Cessationism), most of his ministry is otherwise very good.” [Emphasis added] —http://moriel.org/MorielArchive/index.php/discernment/church-issues/aberrational-theology/dan-corner
So Jacob Prasch believes in the 5 points of Calvinism is seems as he only has a problem with his “interpretation of eternal security and Cessationism”. Jacob Prasch and those at Moriel Ministries love to talk out both sides of their mouth. They say they are not Calvinists, but they support the doctrine of Calvinism (excluding one or 2 issues) and they support preachers of Calvinism. For instance Jacob Prasch and Moriel Ministries often quote George Whitefield a Calvinist.
When it comes to understanding TULIP. “It is necessary to note, moreover, that the Five Points of Calvinism are understood by many to be an interrelated, harmonious, self-contained system; thus, rejecting one point is tantamount to rejecting every point, and the falsity of one point falsifies the whole system.”[1] [Emphasis added] You can’t be a 3 or 4 point Calvinist – there is no such thing, and anyone who says they are does not understand the doctrine of Calvinism.
Let’s look at the following individuals and see if they are moderate Calvinists, hyper Calvinists or just plain CALVINISTS who follow a doctrine of demons. All these individuals believe the following: Mark Driscoll, R C Sproul, Albert Mohler, Robert Morey, George Whitefield, Ray Comfort, Paul Washer, John Piper, J C Ryle, Charles Spurgeon, John MacArthur, James White, Don Fortner….etc
- Total Depravity (also known as Total Inability and Original Sin)
- Because of the fall, man is unable of himself to savingly believe the gospel. The sinner is dead, blind, and deaf to the things of God; his heart is deceitful and desperately corrupt. His will is not free, it is in bondage to his evil nature, therefore, he will not–indeed he cannot–choose good over evil in the spiritual realm. Consequently, it takes much more than the Spirit’s assistance to bring a sinner to Christ–it takes regeneration by which the Spirit makes the sinner alive and gives him a new nature. Faith is not something man contributes to salvation but is itself a part of God’s gift of salvation–it is God’s gift to the sinner, not the sinner’s gift to God.
- Unconditional Election
- God’s choice of certain individuals unto salvation before the foundation of the world rested solely in His own sovereign will. His choice of particular sinners was not based on any foreseen response or obedience on their part, such as faith, repentance, etc. On the contrary, God gives faith and repentance to each individual whom He selected. These acts are the result, not the cause of God’s choice. Election therefore was not determined by or conditioned upon any virtuous quality or act foreseen in man. Those whom God sovereignly elected He brings through the power of the Spirit to a willing acceptance of Christ. Thus God’s choice of the sinner, not the sinner’s choice of Christ, is the ultimate cause of salvation.
- Limited Atonement (also known as Particular Atonement)
- Christ’s redeeming work was intended to save the elect only and actually secured salvation for them. His death was a substitutionary endurance of the penalty of sin in the place of certain specified sinners. In addition to putting away the sins of His people, Christ’s redemption secured everything necessary for their salvation, including faith which unites them to Him. The gift of faith is infallibly applied by the Spirit to all for whom Christ died, therefore guaranteeing their salvation.
- Irresistible Grace
- In addition to the outward general call to salvation which is made to everyone who hears the gospel, the Holy Spirit extends to the elect a special inward call that inevitably brings them to salvation. The external call (which is made to all without distinction) can be, and often is, rejected; whereas the internal call (which is made only to the elect) cannot be rejected; it always results in conversion. By means of this special call the Spirit irresistibly draws sinners to Christ. He is not limited in His work of applying salvation by man’s will, nor is He dependent upon man’s cooperation for success. The Spirit graciously causes the elect sinner to cooperate, to believe, to repent, to come freely and willingly to Christ. God’s grace, therefore, is invincible; it never fails to result in the salvation of those to whom it is extended.
- Perseverance of the Saints (also known as Once Saved Always Saved)
- You cannot lose your salvation. Because the Father has elected some to salvation. All who are chosen by God, redeemed by Christ, and given faith by the Spirit are eternally saved. They are kept in faith by the power of Almighty God and thus persevere to the end.
Thomas Lessing says:
If God is the essence of love, which of course He is, then the slightest misrepresentation of his love cannot possibly be called the truth. Both gentlemen, Paul Washer and John MacArthur, believe that Jesus did not die for everyone. Paul Washer is a wee bit more subtle in his approach to this particular “truth” and never says outrightly “Jesus did not die for everyone” but cunningly says in many of his videos on YouTube: “Jesus died the death OF HIS PEOPLE.” Who are his people? Well, of course, the elect only are God’s people. This is the kind of blasphemy John MacArthur and many other Calvinists spew out on their congregants and on the internet.
Let’s have a look and see how good John MacArthur’s ministry is along with some other Calvinists mentioned above:
https://youtube.com/watch?v=6zrS5Bzd-qk%3F
Is it true that Jesus Christ was crucified only for his people (a select few chosen ones)? If it is true, it must be from God. If not, then it is a lie and all lies emanate from the father of all lies, Satan himself. Calvinism is arguably one of the most dangerous doctrines on our planet. Everything they say about the doctrines of sanctification and living a life of holiness and absolute obedience to God is commendable but as soon as it comes to the very core of God’s will for all men, the salvation of their souls, they have it sorely wrong which borders dangerously on blasphemy.
The Calvinists’ view that God only loves the elect and that consequently Jesus only died for them, is nothing short of a partial denial of the incarnation of Jesus Christ. What else could it be than a partial denial of Jesus Christ’s incarnation when He, according to the Calvinists’ doctrines, did not die for the non-elect? If He was not crucified for the non-elect, it follows that He was not born (incarnated) for them either.
What does the Bible say about those who deny the incarnation of Jesus Christ, albeit a partial or complete denial?
And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world. (1 John 4:3)
Some history about the murderous John Calvin:
https://youtube.com/watch?v=WBypS545ab0%3F
See the following articles on John MacArthur:
That John MacArthur DENIES the precious blood of Jesus Christ and denies that it was applied in heaven: John MacArthur – Blood of Jesus Liquid / Never applied in Heaven
John Mac Arthur also believes in Lordship Salvation (Lordship Salvation – Putting the Cart Before the Horse) which is a works based salvation. He also says that not all elected Calvinists are promised a place in heaven as it depends on how holy they are throughout their life – this sounds incredibly similar to Islam. (http://www.soulwinning.info/wolves/macarthur-confusing.htm) and there is so much more.
John MacArthur also says you can take the Mark of the Beast, repent and still be saved: John MacArthur – Take Mark of the Beast and Still be Saved and Grace to You and John MacArthur – Take Mark of the Beast – No Recant
See latest article here on John MacArthurs Orbital Hermeneutics
Notes:
[1] Loraine Boettner, The Reformed Doctrine of Predestination (Phillipsburg, NJ: Presbyterian and Reformed Publishing Company, 1932), 59.
[2] Romans: An Interpretative Outline (pp. 144-147), by David N. Steele and Curtis C. Thomas / Loraine Boettner, The Reformed Doctrine of Predestination (Phillipsburg, NJ: Presbyterian and Reformed Publishing Company, 1932)
John, Redeemed: The truth is, we don’t know where Ananias and Sapphira are. You are right, it does not mean that they were demon-possessed. I don’t know what it means that “Satan filled their hearts”. And it doesn’t say they went to hell. True. But it also doesn’t say that they went to heaven. After their death, we don’t know what happened to them. God is their judge. I don’t think we should try to protect them any more than any other professor of Christianity. Everything apart from what is written, we are only speculating on. (That sounded angry…I didn’t say it in anger)
TC – in reading some of your comments from this and other threads, I think that we have a few things in common. I also had a time after the divorce when I allowed my feelings and mysticism to dictate my actions…loneliness turned out to be spelled s-t-u-p-i-d-i-t-y. I married an unbeliever. But in spite of that God has forgiven me and has been faithful to provide and protect me. Complicating factors are CFS and Hashimoto’s. But I still have a sense of humour intact. Thank God for that! And I have proved that loneliness is only a feeling…the Lord never left my side for one moment.
Present physical conditions for me are uncomfortable. I’d rather be present with the Lord and absent from the body, but it seems that another day has dawned and I am still here. 🙂 See what I mean about my sense of humour? We are inseparable…although I do get serious when it comes to discussing the Lord.
One thing about having a loft above our warehouse business, it has afforded me some extra time to spend in the Word. And that to me is more important than all the wealth. I have friends that are wealthy and miserable, bored and driven. I am content (most of the time), rich in faith and thankful. What else could I hope for in this life?
To sum up my present status…I’m living in a dangerous place with a hedge of protection around me. It keeps me tuned into and seeking God with all my heart, soul, mind and strength. Not one minute goes by that I am not looking heavenward. I’m sure that many of you have been in a similar place. Every day is a gift from God, in miracles, encouragement, wisdom, health (enough to keep me functioning) and his Presence as my constant comfort.
People say that I am looking for the great escape in wishing for the Rapture. Yes and No. Yes, it would be nice…who wouldn’t want to escape the things that are coming on this earth? And No…I don’t fear death, either by the sword of the guillotine or by the power of any of the other last day horses that ride throughout the earth… God in me is greater.
1 John 4:4
Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.
ok…guys…yes it’s getting a little confusing…John I think you should move to a different local so your thoughts would be in the right order. 🙂
I have a reeeeeeeally bad headache today and so no more thinking for me. I’ll have to look at the comments when I can think straight. God Bless!
Hi Debs
Thanks for opening up as new thread for OSAS vs OSnAS discussion. However, I notice that you have transferred some of the earlier comments on that subject (within THIS thread) to that one. Not all of the comments related to the flow of that conversation have been transferred which means it sounds disjointed. Also, where our comments have referred to a comment number, it no longer makes sense because the comment number we are referring to is now in a different place.
Therefore, would you please transfer those comments (on that new thread) back to where it was, so that we start that new thread from scratch?
As an example of what I am talking about, please see the NOW positioned comments which no longer make sense:
1) Paul’s comment 45-46 both say “@Carolyn RE 38 & 39” actually those 2 comments have been moved to that new thread
2) Carolyn’s reply 47 refers to my reply which has also been moved to the new thread, so no longer makes sense
3) Redeemed’s comment 56 says “Carolyn, see John’s #53” Well the comment she is referring to NOW appears as comment 51 above
4) my comment on 57 says “please first take a look at my comments 52, 54, 55 & 56.” Well, now that everything has been moved, it is NOW referring to comments (as they appear at the moment) as 49, 51,52 & 53
Thanks Sister
Hi Debs
I have also left the same comment on http://www.discerningtheworld.com/2013/01/09/jacob-prasch-moderate-calvinists-are-good-hyper-calvinists-are-bad/#comments
Thanks for opening up this new thread for OSAS vs OSnAS discussion. However, I notice that you have already transferred the above comments on this subject from that previous article to this one. However, not all of the comments related to the conversation have been transferred which means it sounds disjointed. Also, where our comments (still shown on that older article) referred to a comment number, it no longer makes sense because the comment number we are referring to is now in a different place.
Therefore, would you please transfer the above comments (on THIS new thread) back to where it was (same comment numbers they had before) and actually start this new thread from scratch?
As an example of what I am talking about, please see the NOW positioned comments (on that older article) which no longer make sense:
1) Paul’s comment 45-46 both say “@Carolyn RE 38 & 39″ actually those 2 comments now appear above on this thread.
2) Carolyn’s reply 47 refers to my reply which has also been moved to this thread, so no longer makes sense
3) Redeemed’s comment 56 says “Carolyn, see John’s #53″ Well the comment she is referring to NOW appears as comment 51
4) my comment on 57 says “please first take a look at my comments 52, 54, 55 & 56.” Well, now that everything has been moved, it is NOW referring to comments (as they appear at the moment) as 49, 51,52 & 53
Thanks Sister
John and everyone: Ok… Besides Revelation 21:8, there are many other verses stating emphatically that people that do these works of the flesh will not inherit the kingdom of God. Period.
Revelation 22:14-16
14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.
16 I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.
**Just as a side note…taking it out of context is what the 7th Day Adventist does who takes the phrase “blessed are they that do his commandments” and they make a whole doctrine out of that being the mark, the seal of those who will be saved on the Day the Lord returns. And believe me, they spend 90 percent of the time defending that doctrine because it’s so far from the truth of salvation by faith. That’s an example of taking it out of context!
On the other hand, taking it a face value for what it says, that people that do these thing will not have the right to the tree of life, means what it says.
We have 3 paths to follow, 3 different choices that produce very different results:
Works of the Law
Works of the flesh
Works of the Spirit
Works of the law (all the good things we do for God – religion)
Galatians 2:16
King James Version (KJV)
Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by thefaith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
Works of the Flesh (all the bad things we do that displease God)
Galatians 5:19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
Works of the Spirit (all the things that we do in obedience to God)
2 Corinthians 13:5
Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?
Titus 1:16
They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.
Deuteronomy 8:19
And it shall be, if thou do at all forget the Lord thy God, and walk after other gods, and serve them, and worship them, I testify against you this day that ye shall surely perish.
If there is one thing that I have picked up from Debs, especially (she is emphatic), it is that if you are genuinely saved, you will be convicted and you will repent. If you are only a professor, you will not be convicted and you will not repent. And Redeemer is also emphatic.
Our works will end up proving who we serve! Our own works and our own words will testify against us.
We have one other choice as I see it. On one of the other threads, I believe it was Debs that said that she had a friend that disowned the Lord by changing over to the Jewish religion.
We can also disown/deny him.
@John re comment 57 Galatians 4:19 where you said: “Whatever interpretation is correct, it is NOT referring to someone needing to be CHANGED FIRST before they are saved.”
I would totally agree with that statement. That would be a religious thinking, that we need to do something in order to be saved. It is the Spirit that gives life, that convicts and that conforms us to his image….
And we always come back to this it seems…repentance is key to the process of sanctification. It proves genuineness of faith from a false profession.
Carolyn, re #62
I don’t know if this is relevant, but you may find this interesting. I know a lady who was raised in a religion very similar to SDA – very legalistic and Sabbath observers. She did profess Christ at the age of accountability and it was apparently a genuine profession and God knew her heart.
In adulthood she rebelled against the legalism and became an alcolohic. Then she rejected Christ and got into liberal branch of Judaism and remained there for about 7 years. During that time Christians in her family were praying for her and one day it was like a light went on and she gave up Judaism and returned to Christ. One of the reasons she chose Judaism was because Sabbath worship was so ingrained in her. Even after returning to Christ and Bible study and those who tried to disciple her, she still continued to observe the Sabbath and was reluctant to attend church on Sunday.
At some point she began to attend a small Baptist church, reaffirmed her faith and began to attend church and Sunday School in addition to group Bible study during the week. She had been in poor health and recently passed away. Her memorial service was a wonderful testimony of her faith journey and how the Lord had worked in her life. She was a single lady and in the latter years she ministered as best she could to children although her health hindered her from doing a whole lot.
It was God’s grace and caring Christians whom God used in her life to minister His truth and love to her. Not every story has a happy ending, and free will enters in, but it is important that we do share the Gospel and disciple and do the work of an evangelist and intercede for others.
Carolyn, you came out of SDA and other “detours” along the way as others have also testified, but God is faithful as long as hearts are willing.
In the salvation process, the Holy Spirit convicts through the living and breathing Word of God and the individual either acknowledges he/she is a sinner in need of a Savior or refuses to do so. That is repentance – when the lights go on and one sees their need for a Savior and a change of mind takes place. When that happens, we are sealed unto redemption and even if we stray into wrong territory or make bad choices, if the conversion is genuine the Lord will draw us back, discipline us and help us press on. A Christian can still resist and that can lead to the “sin unto death”. But one’s salvation is intact because we didn’t/couldn’t earn it and it is not our willpower that keeps us.
What a wonderful God we serve who is full of grace and mercy, but He does not wink at sin either before we are saved or after.
John Chingford,
I post frequently at Expreacherman and I do see what you are saying there. It is much different to say that Godly sorrow should accompany conviction of sin than to say that one must turn from sins for salvation. I personally believe that Godly sorrow may indeed be present at conversion but it is not something legalistically quantifiable. (In other words, must absolutely be there in order to be legit.) What really makes our faith legit is the object of our faith – that being Jesus Christ. Experiences of sorrow can vary from person to person. Some may not appear to be all that sorrowful but do indeed change their mind putting their faith in Christ alone for salvation and thereby are saved. Sure people then should walk in the Spirit but we know that believers do not always walk in the Spirit. I also posted there my take on 2 Cor 7 in that the sorrowing there is not necessarily directly related to eternal salvation. I think it is directly related to his first letter to them. The Godly sorrow then leads in that case to them correcting their behavior but they were already believers. My guess is that many here would dispute my take but that is fine. I’m not looking for debate or anything. If my take is wrong then I am convinced that the Spirit will teach me as I continue to study God’s Word.
Sometimes too much is put into labels like Free Grace etc. The only reason that I reluctantly use the term is because it is a decent contrast to the term “sovereign grace.” Sometimes these conversations do get too heated but I think that we must be careful of developing us verse them mentalities such as those who most frequently visit this site verse those who visit that site. I still have many friends that are Calvinists etc. I have just agreed to disagree with some of them. The other thing to note is that I have witnessed a pendulum effect as in people recovering from one error are prone to overcompensation and drifting to other errors. I do worry about seeing similar people going to far to embrace things like universalism or the brand of so called “free grace” that is the GES or crossless gospel heretics.
Also to clear up a few things: I for one don’t believe you are all teaching Lordship and I have no ill will for believers seeking the truth even if they currently disagree with me.
Hello All,
My thoughts on the “Once saved issue” goes like this. And remember its my thoughts. Jesus died for ME. Oh he loves me so much that he died for my sins. If I am to lose my salvation because of sin why did he need to die. Nope thats not my Jesus. You see when you love Jesus so much you wish to please him and if you are in a position where you are not pleasing him well then you were never saved in the first place. I see this situation in a very simple way, almost child like I suppose. If we had to lose a precious gift called salvation then all is lost. You love Christ and so you will wish to show him in all ways. There are no grey areas. When Jesus said to the Father “I have lost not one” my love for Christ bursts open and I am reduced to tears. Our salvation is forever. If you are not a child of Gods then you are of the devils. How can we once belong to Christ then the devil. Thats confusion at its best. Thank you.
This is a question to John from his response to Carolyn on 14 January, 2013 in response #47.
Here is the statement you wrote:
My only question is to your phrase at the beginning: “It was an infant church and required real holiness . . . ”
Does not the Lord require real holiness in the church throughout all the history of the church?
Your statement makes it sound like it was only for that period.
God is the same yesterday, today, and forever. Holiness requirements in Jesus are absolutes. They are not relative to time periods.
There is an old article called: Eternal Security – Genuinely Saved, Always Saved! It would be fantastic if y’all could move your discussion there….
Carolyn, please read the article, it’s pretty good 🙂
Rob Diamond wrote:
I think you misunderstand what John C. was trying to say. Yes, God is the same yesterday, today and forever. However, situations and circumstances are different. The establishment of the Church was a unique time in history. Surely as you look at the Bible you will see God dealing with situations and personalities in different ways. That does not mean that He changes His principles, characteristics and attributes. This situation called for drastic measures/consequences to protect the Church in it’s infancy stages.
Today the equivalent is the “sun unto death” when a believer reaches a point where it is better to take him/her home than to allow them to continue down a destructive path when chastening fails. Also, believers will give an account at the Bema Seat of how we have lived our lives.
To Rob Diamond comment 70
You are correct that God does require real holiness in His people ALWAYS. He wants to change us (by HIS power) through sanctification and then glorification. The point I am making is that there was a SPECIAL demonstration of God’s power,presence at THAT time which resulted in Ananias & Saphira’s death. We see it happening in the OT before when God was moving in a special way. We saw it with the death of Achan and then we saw it when the ARK of God’s presence was being carried along and individuals tried to stop the Ark from falling to the ground. This demonstration of God’s holiness is usually at the start of a new dispensation in God’s dealings with His people UNTIL it was established.
The reason I brought this up is because I was trying to show that A & S death was NOT because of an unforgivable sin nor because they had lost their salvation nor because they were never saved but due to God preventing falsehood from spreading in the infant church before it was established and to demonstrate His holiness, in order that the church would understand the seriousness of sin.
Hi Jim F re comment 68.
Thanks for being so gracious and humble in trying to understand our position and trying to be agreeable. You seem much more adaptable in trying to accept others SLIGHT differences than the rest of the crowd who write at EX Preacherman who all seem to portray bigotry, elitism, and unwilling to learn from others.
I do hope that you continue to fellowship here. I hope you can notice that we DO try to listen and learn together in all humility. Also, Ex Preacherman get so caught up in just one small aspect of our salvation and ignore the big picture by focussing ONLY on LS and virtually nothing else. We DO try to look at the WHOLE Bible and follow its FULL instructions.
However, there is much good in what EX Preacherman try to do regarding exposing LS and in what they teach (up to a certain point) but then it almost becomes heretical by teaching the “wide road” to conversion. They actually fill their whole vision with very little else other than getting bogged down by that ONE topic of LS, going too far to the other extreme. They also display an elitist attitude by rejecting all others outside their little group who disagree with them. On one occasion I wrote questioning some of the things which they wrote. I was immediately dismissed as a heretic with the words by email “we do not publish anything from Lordship salvation heretics” NICE!!!!!
Is it true that all you need is to believe to be saved?
For example is a muslim saved? Of course not. However, Muslims DO believe in Jesus. The problem is that they believe the wrong things about Jesus. So, is belief enough? Surely if a person truly has faith in the REAL Jesus they will act on that faith. For example, if you believe a table will hold your weight but you do not step onto it – where is your faith?
By making a decision to just mentally believe in Jesus as your Saviour, it is not enough unless you truly believe and believe the right things. Belief needs to contain faith which comes not just from the mind but also from the heart. Faith is not the same as belief. Faith includes putting your trust and dependence on Jesus for your salvation. It is looking unto Jesus and asking Him to save you and make His home in you.
What do the words “believeth in Him” mean? The modern translations use “believe”. Does believe and believeth actually 100% mean the same thing?
Doesn’t believeth mean to believe by clinging onto by faith (i.e, believe “eth”), rather than just a simple mind belief? For those who know their Greek, please help me with this. Am I right?
Godly Sorrow Leads to repentance
Regarding “Godly sorrow leads to repentance”. We are not denying that Paul is writing to believers. The point I am making is that Paul may be quoting a general rule that ALSO applies to EVERYBODY. Were Israel (in the OT) born again? No, of course not, yet they DID experience a Godly sorrow (at times) which led them to repentance. Even those of Ninevah experienced this when they went around in sackcloth, repenting.
Surely it is a general rule that Godly Sorrow leads to repentance. It is for believers and unbelievers alike. I agree that the only thing which saves us is when we decide to put our faith in Jesus as the only true Saviour from our sins as the eternal Son of God who died and was resurrected and is alive forevermore. Godly sorrow, repentance and later turning from sin DOES NOT save us but it is surely the normal consequence that accompanies faith and salvation. Those who show NO evidence of these things (at the point of faith) are surely revealing that they do not really believe?
John F. – I looked up your blog on Ray Comfort:
http://standforthefaith.wordpress.com/2013/01/13/how-to-be-saved-in-their-own-words-part-1-ray-comfort/
where you say:
“Why is Psalm 51 a model for a prayer to obtain salvation? Furthermore, why is a prayer even needed to obtain salvation? What verse or verses in the Bible say that we cannot have salvation unless we pray for it? Is not belief the requirement? What “God cares about is the attitude of your heart”? No, what God cares about is that you are unsaved and need to change your mind and believe in Jesus Christ alone. This faith is based on who He is and what he has done on the cross for your salvation.”
Quiet salvation is no salvation as far as I’m concerned. If I am afraid to speak up because of fear of rejection or persecution, then is it really salvation? Christ died for our sins in a public way. I disagree that he is only interested in our “attitude”.
How about Romans 10:8-10 where it says confession is made unto salvation. It’s not just a mental ascent, it is a confession.
King James Version (KJV)
8 But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;
9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
Also, how about:
Matthew 10:33
But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.
Are you saying that we really don’t have to confess our salvation before the world? If so, that is a cowardly way of being a Christian. And if it isn’t what you’re saying, then why wouldn’t you make a public confession? Why would you hide it?
Re: Carolyn’s #75 – Ray Comfort
I agree with everything you have said! Here we see the XPM crowd missing the mark…………AGAIN. They CORRECTLY point out there are problems with Comfort/Way of the Master. But AGAIN XPM fixates on their blown out of proportion pet peeve of LS and their false view of repentance.
Yes, Comfort & Co. are to be avoided. WofM style is in your face, and confrontational. Comfort & Cameron are sloppy about the company they keep and have no problem sharing platforms w/false teachers – “end justifies the means”. Comfort/Cameron are in bed w/TBN – “The Blasphemy Network”. One can’t enter the headquarters of TBN without passing through their disgusting paganistic display. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dDW0Qq3RZ1g Note: Poor quality home video, but gets the point across. Cameron interviewed Paul Washer, a Calvinist, (Washer praised J.I Packer, an avowed Calvinist) and John MacArthur (another Calvinist), on TBN. (You can find this on YouTube.)Then more recently, Cameron touted his dominionist film on devout Mormon Glenn Beck’s program.
The WofM evangelism is “hit and run” – where is the follow-up/discipleship mandataed in the Great Commission? Doesn’t this smack of Calvinism’s perverted version of predestination?
On the WofM website they tout these “Three Musketeers” as recommending their program – http://wayofthemaster.com/commendations.shtml
Again, XPM can’t seem to see the forest for the trees……………
I think Carolyn meant Jim F. I agree with John C. that Jim F. is trying to be agreeable and gracious. And I hope my assessment of his first article on his new blog was not too harsh. However, I see that it appears to give the folks at XPM another forum as they all chimed in to support him. All the same people from XPM.
I truly hope Jim F. takes heed to John’s words of wisdom and I hope that he continues to dialog with us here and be open to what is said here.
John F…sorry…I just re-read your comment. You were quoting Ray Comfort on the “attitude” of repentance…I misread.
Well, that’s better, but I would say that Psalm 51 is every bit as important as any other “truth” in the Word of God. It is showing us an acceptable heart “attitude” before a holy God. It agrees with other Scripture. So I would say that not only is the right attitude of repentance needed, but also confession unto salvation.
Being selective of verses to support our pet agendas or to qualify our formulas will not do. In that case, no matter what side we’re on…be it Lordship Salvation or Free Grace, we’re wrong. Extremes of any doctrines take us past the Word into error. ALL Scripture is given by inspiration of God!!!
2 Timothy 3:16
All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:17 That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.
And now, I see I even am talking to the wrong person…Jim F…not John F. ……I give up…..
Carolyn,
I haven’t read the blog by John F, so I cannot comment on anything there.
But I heartily agree with everything you say on comment No.75!
Very well put!
John Chingford,Carolyn
Thanks for your responses. Please let me respond in a couple segments. John- I believe that you are indeed not advocating lordship salvation or repentance as turn from sin “for” salvation. Though it may be possible that you advocate maybe a “backdoor” style of LS (for lack of a better term)that looks to try determine the genuiness of ones faith or coversion based on works or a change of direction that should be evident. If I am wrong about that then I accept the correction. We do agree in this, “Faith includes putting your trust and dependence on Jesus for your salvation.” I think what you mean by mind belief is that it is not enough for a person to believe things like Jesus is God, God is real, the Bible is true etc. What does matter is what we believe about Jesus and that we put our faith in Him trusting Him alone for salvation based on who He is (the sinless Son of God come in human flesh) and what He accomplished for us (death, burial, and resurrection). Repentance in relation to salvation is related to a change of mind about anything contrary to what I just mentioned. Whether it is a change of mind from the fact that you think there is no God, that you think in some way you can help save yourself, that you don’t think you are lost, from any other false way of salvation or false idols etc) The change of mind leads you to place your trust in Christ alone for salvation. The thing is that some will then follow and say dogmatically that therefore the person “will” show forth evidence of being changed. Sometimes this is were problems can come in. The best evidence that one believes is first the object of their faith. Without that being right then it doesn’t matter – just like the Muslim’s supposed faith. Goods works are supposed to be part of the believer’s life going forward but many factors come into play such as: what baggage does the new believer have?, what training is avaible to them?, how old are they?, do they learn quickly?, what are their spiritual gifts?, what believers are around for support and encouragement?, have they learned to walk in the Spirit?, and on and on. Judging fruit is problematic because were are not all knowing like God and people are not all the same with the same life situations. I do feel that sometimes people actually get saved and then get told by some well meaning church type that they might not have been genuine because of a particular sin that they committ. In that case I think to myself, What a tragedy? Shouldn’t we rather try to restore someone to fellowship with God rather than be quick to label true believers as not genuine? There is a trap with all of this in that a person can become so concerned with whether they were “genuine” or not that they begin to live a paralyzed, over analytical, almost legalistic life with limited joy. This is because they stop remembering the freedom in Christ of what they can do because they have put too much focus on what they can’t. I see this in churches all the time. There are many that live the Christian life practicaly as a list of rules rather than in the grace of God who has freed them from the penalty of sin and death. Not of coarse as a liscence to sin, but as a person free to live for Him and glorify Him.
Carolyn,
There is a point where a person needs to realize and admit that they are a sinner and that they must then place their faith in Christ alone for salvation. The Bible declares were are saved the moment we believe, not the moment we believe then publicly confess. Some would call that belief plus. Now don’t get me wrong – we should confess Christ publicly. That primarily is what is so great about believer’s baptism. It is a first public profession that you identify with Christ. Things like believer’s baptism or public confessions/professions are great and honor God but do not have saving value and the lack thereof do not nullify a person’s faith. Now I realize that some to go to the extreme that public confession is necessary but to those I would say the same thing that you said to me, “Being selective of verses to support our pet agendas or to qualify our formulas will not do.” There is much more that can be said about those verses but I have to leave it for now for times sake. I can come back to it later here or at my blog.
As for Psalm 51, sorrow like that over sin may be present before and or after conversion but it is not a prerequisite for salvation. The prerequisite was accomplished by Christ(sinless life, death, burial, and resurrection) and His salvation is appropriated by grace through faith.
Redeemed,
You were fair enough to me so I’ll just ask you a few questions. You said “Here we see the XPM crowd missing the mark…………AGAIN. They CORRECTLY point out there are problems with Comfort/Way of the Master. But AGAIN XPM fixates on their blown out of proportion pet peeve of LS and their false view of repentance.”
What is false about XPM’s view of repentance in your estimation? What is false about Lorship Salvation’s view of repentance and how does your view differ from the two?
Also, blogs like mine and others like Expreacherman may seem at times to fixate on LS but I really don’t believe that is the case. It is just that there is so much out there being propagated by LS supporters that it has to be combated. Maybe one day something else will become popular and we’ll all debate that. There is also much out there to be positive about. I hope to have some things at my blog that lend toward standing for the faith and Christian growth.
Jim F
>> Though it may be possible that you advocate maybe a “backdoor” style of LS
Talk absolute nonsense…
Jim F wrote:
Jim F., I give you this link to answer your questions about repentance.
Deborah,
Backdoor Lordship Salvation (if there really is any such thing)is nonsense. Likewise, Lorship Salvation, Calvinism, regeneration before faith, repentance from all sin for salvation,Covenant theology, Reformed theology,Arminianism, Catholicism, Universalism, Crossless gospel etc, are also nonsense. I don’t intend to comment here much more but will check back a few times in case John, Carolyn, or Redemmed want to respond. I was initially reluctant to post here at all because I disagree with Prof. Johan Malan and his article here on salvation (Salvation Through Jesus Christ)in many aspects.
All I can expect for any believer is for them to go back to the Word and see what is so and be persuaded by the Holy Spirit, not me. Thanks for at least allowing my comments.
Jim F. – If we put this in human terms we might understand it better. Would you like a formula or a relationship with someone? Is God any different? He also would like a relationship. And all the conditions that apply to a relationship with you or me are similar to the conditions that God requires, since we are made in his image.
I’ll give you an personal example. When I went through a divorce, my brother took on a religious spirit and emailed me with railing, taunting, hateful remarks. As I mentioned in one of my earlier posts, I called the members of my family to ask forgiveness and make things right. What I didn’t mention was that my brother was alerted by one of the other members of the family and he would not answer his phone.
On my birthday, he sent me a card. How interested was I to receive a birthday card when I had no relationship with him? Since there had been no attempt on his part to mend the relationship…only a few more high handed insults and remarks, a birthday card was an empty gesture and most unwelcome.
My point is, that he may have been born my brother, but without a relationship as such, what kind of brother was he? Christ said, Mark 3:35 For whosoever shall do the will of God, the same is my brother, and my sister, and mother.
Just because you were born into a family, does not mean you have a guaranteed relationship with them. And if there is no relationship, then will God be satisfied with a formula or a nominal commitment? Can a relationship be lost? Yes. It can be. It should be obvious that not everyone who calls Christ “Lord” has a relationship with him or has faith in him.
Matthew 7:22-24
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
These were people that professed Christianity but they had no relationship with Christ. They were acting out of their own works from a sinful disposition, and seduced by religious activity. They thought they were Christians but they were not.
How do we know when someone is a Christian? They show signs of life. They show signs of a relationship. They are hungry for the Word. They respond to Him with interest. They want to hear what he has to say. They love to talk about Him and with Him. They love others who also love Him. If these signs are not present, then I doubt they are having a relationship in Spirit and Truth.
But it’s not to say, they won’t come alive to the Word at some time in the future. Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God…so if they have ears to hear….
And I’ll leave it there. One time comment to answer your comment. Thanks for listening.
Jim F
You have a warped idea of salvation if you think anyone here is LS IN ANY WAY. I am tired of XPM and the lot of you. No go away and spread your lies elsewhere.
Hi Jim F re comment 85 in which you said:
“I don’t intend to comment here much more but will check back a few times in case John, Carolyn, or Redeemed want to respond”
Also, regarding your reply on comment 81. You imply that believers can only grow spiritually if they are in the right circumstances to grow eg being discipled by the right type of mature believers.
Quite honestly I have a problem with those statements of yours when we consider scriptures like:
2 Cor 5:17 “Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new”
How do you account for that verse if you suggest that a believer cannot grow unless in the right circumstances to grow? The FACT IS that believers receive the Holy Spirit and are changed by THE POWER OF THE HOLY SPIRIT – not by outward circumstances but BY THE POWER OF GOD. From the moment that a person TRULY believes upon Christ they are instantaneously changed into a child of God. There MUST be a change because they are NOW a new creation the old PASSED AWAY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Of course, the change may be different with different people but there WILL be a change!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
[delete – I said, that I have had enough of you lot from XPM – now please leave. You spread lies about us (twisting our words unlike any other) over at Expreacherman and then come here with a smile and expect us to debate you? I think not. From now on, I am just going to delete comments, like you do ours :)]