The DIFFERENCE Between Assurance of Salvation and CALVINISM’S Perseverance of the Saints

Assurance of Salvation

The DIFFERENCE Between Assurance of Salvation (Once Saved, Always Saved) and CALVINISM’S Perseverance of the Saints (Once CHOSEN, Always CHOSEN)

There is a BIG DIFFERENCE between Calvinism’s version of ‘once saved, always saved’ and the BIBLICAL version of Assurance of Salvation.

You see, Calvinists believe you are CHOSEN by God before you are born, therefore you are actually ‘ONCE CHOSEN, ALWAYS CHOSEN’.  If you are Elect, you can’t become un-elect!   The Biblical version is WE HAVE FREE WILL, when you come to accept Jesus as your Lord and Saviour, you are REGENERATED;  the Holy Spirit comes to abide in you and HE SEALS YOU, and your name is written in to the book of Life.

Philippians 4:3    “Yes, I ask you also, true companion, help these women, who have labored side by side with me in the gospel together with Clement and the rest of my fellow workers, whose names are in the book of life.”

Revelation 3:5 also makes is clear that once a name is written in the book of life, Jesus PROMISES that He will never blot it out.

Revelation 3:5    “The one who conquers will be clothed thus in white garments, and I will never blot his name out of the book of life. I will confess his name before my Father and before his angels.”

Who are those who have conquered? Well these are those who have overcome the trials of earthly life and are genuinely saved.   In Revelation, Jesus was speaking to all the Churches, and He promises to acknowledge us before His Own Father and the angels, those whose names are written in the book of life.   Unfortunately (Revelations 20:15) reveals the fate of those whose names that are NOT written in the book of life and they go to the lake of fire

Revelation 20:15    And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.”

In Revelation 13:8 and Revelation  21:27, we find the references to the “Lamb’s book of life”,  in which are also names of all those who have been washed by the blood of the Lamb, Jesus Christ. The Lamb who has been “slain from the creation of the world” has a book in which are written all those who have been redeemed by His sacrifice. They are the ones who will enter the Holy City, the New Jerusalem (Revelation 21:10) and who will live forever in heaven with God. Since the book of life is that which records all who have eternal life through the Lamb, it’s clear that the book of life and the Lamb’s book of life are one and the same.

When the Holy Spirit comes to abide in us, he stays there foreverHe does not come and go and come and go each time you fall into some kind of sin.

John 14:16   “And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Helper, to be with you forever. “

The fact that the Holy Spirit will never leave a believer is also seen in (Ephesians 1:13-14) where believers are said to be “sealed” with the Holy Spirit,

Ephesians 1:13-14    “13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, 14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.”   

The envision of being sealed with the Spirit is one of ownership and possession. God has promised eternal life to all who are genuinely born again, and as a guarantee that He will keep His promise, He has sent the Holy Spirit to abide in the believer until the day of redemption. Kind of like making a down payment/deposit on a house or a car, God has provided all believers with a DEPOSIT on their future relationship with Him by sending the Holy Spirit to abide in them. The fact that all believers are sealed with the Spirit is also seen in (2 Corinthians 1:22 and Ephesians 4:30).

2 Corinthians 1:22   Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts.”   

Ephesians 4:30  “And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.”

NOW LOOK AT THIS – DIFFERENCE BETWEEN OLD COVENANT AND NEW COVENANT:

Now, BEFORE Jesus’ death, resurrection, and ascension into heaven, before the NEW COVENANT, the Holy Spirit had a “come and go” relationship with people.  The Holy Spirit indwelt King Saul, but then He departed from him:

1 Samuel 16:14  “But the Spirit of the LORD departed from Saul, and an evil spirit from the LORD troubled him.”

Here (1 Samuel 16:13) we read that the Holy Spirit came upon David.  But after his adultery with Bathsheba, David feared that the Holy Spirit would be taken from him.

Psalm 51:11   “Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy holy spirit from me.”

In (Exodus 31:2-5) we read that the the Holy Spirit filled Bezaleel to enable him to produce the items needed for the tabernacle, but this is not described as a permanent relationship.

The Holy Spirit filled Elizabeth when she heard about Mary’s conception and her baby leaped in her womb.

Luke 1:41   “And it came to pass, that, when Elisabeth heard the salutation of Mary, the babe leaped in her womb; and Elisabeth was filled with the Holy Ghost

But all of this changed beginning on the day of Pentecost, (Acts 2) the Holy Spirit began permanently indwelling believers.  Pentecost was the commissioning of the Christian church and the fulfillment of God’s promise to always be with us and never forsake us.

Now, understand this, while the Holy Spirit will never leave a GENUINE believer, it is possible for our sin to “quench the Holy Spirit” or “grieve the Holy Spirit”

Quenching the Holy Spirit:  1 Thessalonians 5:19   “Quench not the Spirit.”

Grieving the Holy Spirit:   Ephesians 4:30   “And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.”

Sin ALWAYS has consequences in our relationship with Jesus. While our relationship with God is SECURE in Jesus Christ, UNCONFESSED SIN sin in our lives WILL hinder our relationship with God and it will quench the Holy Spirit’s working in our lives. That is why it is so important to ask Jesus for forgiveness of our sins because God is “faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.” (1 John 1:9).   So, while the Holy Spirit will never leave us, the reward and joy of His presence in our lives will feel far away, because sin drives a wedge between us and God and we are effectively distancing ourselves from Jesus.

As Christians SEALED by the Holy Spirit you will still sin, but if you are genuinely born again, the Holy Spirit will CHASTISE you every time you sin and you will sooner than later repent of your sins.  But there are people who PROFESS to be Christian and they do not have the Holy Spirit in then.  These are people who can speak Jesus’ name, they go to church, even have big ministries teaching people the bible and they sound so intelligent, but they have not been REGENERATEDbecause they refuse to give up their sinful ways, they refuse to pick up their cross and follow Jesus.

Luke 14:27   “Whoever does not bear his own cross and come after me cannot be my disciple.”

They think they can have it both ways.

2 Timothy 3:5   They will maintain the outward appearance of religion but will have repudiated its powerSo avoid people like these.

They have bad fruit, they follow doctrines of demons, and they mingle with evil people and very easily compromise the Word of God for the sake of ‘unity’.

Satan always does twist scripture for his own advantage and tell people that at an alter call if they just pray the sinners pray they will be saved and never lose it, but God knows who is GENUINELY saved and who isn’t.  We CAN’T fool Him.  People CAN FOOL EACH OTHER into believing they are real Christians, when in fact they are not.  And how do we tell if they are not, well by the things they do and say (the fruit of the spirit)  – the words the speak/preach. But even then, sometimes we meet some ‘great pretenders’ some brilliant con-artists and it takes a long time to figure them out.

See this article as well:  Eternal Security – Genuinely Saved, Always Saved!

Please share:

Deborah (Discerning the World)

Deborah Ellish is the author of the above article. Discerning the World is an internet Christian Ministry based in Johannesburg South Africa. Tom Lessing and Deborah Ellish both own Discerning the World. For more information see the About this Website page below the comments section.

206
Please leave a Reply

avatar
 
nodhihatnopeunhappygigglelaughupup2overt2clapyayyahoohi5friendstrucewaitthinkpopiknowcheckreadbettersorrysobfaintohnoscratchunsuredazedthank
 
 
 
20 Comment authors
Deborah (Discerning the World)hemrajWayne JackmichaelJohn Chingford Recent comment authors
Redeemed
Guest
Redeemed

Sue, I obviously did not mean that the grace of Christ is “greasy”. That is an interpretation of how some who have false prefessions view it. Also, J.R. Rice’s sermon is What It Costs to Be a Good Christian, not what it costs to be saved. If you looked into Bro. Rice and what a soulwinner he was you would know that he gave a clear presentation of the Gospel and never ever said there was a cost to being saved other than surrendering to Christ.

Now as to your comment about JP being “naughty”. Do you think Christian leaders should (wink) be given a pass for horrible tirades against brothers and sisters in Christ simply because they dared to question him?

Christian teachers/leaders are held to a higher standard. Many forget that and lose their humility. Does that not concern you?

Jarrod Kruger
Guest
Jarrod Kruger

This is not Jarrod against anybody.

It is truth against deception. We do not struggle against flesh and blood…..

We are all believer priests and we need to come to our own conclusions. And You can talk about sin and try to get to that point of having your self cleaned up so you will stay saved. Or you can just Acts 16:31 it and learn Grace so you can get cleaned up enough!

I spent 10 years in a church that taught us all about our sin and how horrible I was. No matter what i got cleaned up in my life another person was just a little better, so I always had more sin to repent from!(was I doing enough?) I was never going to do it! it was a white knuckle experience for 10 years! And i was going to walk away from it all because I was sick and tired of trying.

The Lord took me out of religion and brought me to a school that taught GRACE! and I see so many here that are in the same boat as I was and I feel for you,because no matter how much you try to fight your sin, someone will be doing better than you (wheres the scale or list for us to know we are repenting enough?)

What are the fruits that you expect to see if you are judging people if they are saved or not?

What are the things that you judge people for that proves they are not saved?

I will use Carolyns friend again. A hypothetical.

He was a prideful,arrogant, drunk. What if some of his fruit was becoming less prideful and less arrogant but still a drunk? you can see the drinking but did you notice that he was less prideful and arrogant? We dont look for the less pride and arrogance in that man but we will certainly judge his drinking.

What if he was a homicidal drunk, He kept drinking but the Lord helped him with His Homicidal tendancy. Do we ever see that fruit? nope we will judge his drinking. The list could go on and on about the things that we cant see.

I believe that if someone went to Carolyns friend in Grace God would restore that man to fellowship with Himself. But how many of us approach each other in Grace? Instead we are judgmental and want to see that man cleaned up first( He cant be saved, look at what hes doing!). And Christ came to save sinners and restore mans relationship to Himself. And this poor fellow has never been taught that His yolk is EASY.

Read the prodigal son. Remember that it is about believers. It is God and Believers in that story. The father let the younger son go! but he was ALWAYS a son. We see the Father waiting for the return of His son. His son came to his senses and returned to the Father. The son had a big repent pity party speech prepared for his Father, and look close what the Father allowed the son to say.1 John 1:9 thats it! We see the younger son as recovered in this story.

But the law(mosaic) abiding, legalistic, self righteous older brother, we dont get to see if he recovers. You will see transference arrogance in the older brother also, he accuses the younger brother of hiring prostitutes, and the scripture says that the younger brother was living riotous. The older brother was describing what he would have done if he was living riotous. The older brother fell from Grace and put himself back under the law ( he did not lose his salvation though) and He saw His Father as extreme because the father treated the younger brother with Grace.

Jarrod Kruger
Guest
Jarrod Kruger

Redeemed,

So how do we get saved?

Jesus died for sinners. I am a sinner and He died for me. that is me coming to My savior. and He will save me. that is easy believism. I do not shutter at easy believism, the world shutters at easy believism.

If the book of James ever said,”salvation is dead without works.” you would have a point,and I would rescind.

James says that Faith is dead with out works. He is exactly right. Our faith is dead but not Gods. If James said,”Grace is dead without works.” I would rescind.

salvation is a one shot deal, and He remains faithful to us no matter what.2 Tim 2:13

If the creatures faith is dead, our Gods faith is NOT. Grace saves us and that one moment of Faith in Christ is Grace that can never be taken back. He can not deny Himself. And He told us that He would save us if we ever believed on His Son.

If you want to go live like Hell or believe that that is what I teach, I cant stop you!

If you teach Grace like its taught in the Bible, You will be amazed at what people are willing to do for the Lord (they go rather quick into a faith with works). If you teach sin and works you will have to guilt people into doing works. Which ends up being the dead faith that James is talking about!(human works) God wants divine works. And you need a solid understanding of Grace to understand the faith and works James is talking about.

Its the object(Christ) of our faith that saves us, not our faith. If you put faith in Christ once, you aint never getting out of it. We could have faith that a goat could save us, does that faith save you?

Carolyn
Guest
Carolyn

John…It is not important for me to become a OSAS. John, there are many scholars who also know how to read the Bible and have reached different conclusions than you on that subject. And daily, I read from a broad base of Bible scholars, teachers and pastors who don’t agree on everything but they agree on the basics.

Re going into Catholicism…Carolyn might not…but many have departed from what they once believed…Christ alone by faith alone. Mariology appeals to them. Midrash appeals to others. Legalism appeals to some…as it did to the Galatians. Paul warned them(the Galatians) that if they allowed themselves to be circumcised, Christ would be of no value to them. I used to discount Galatians because it was talking to Jews who had returned to the law. Then when I experienced the legalists of 7th Day, the Holy Spirit impressed the truth of that particular book on me. I understood that he was talking to me as well as the Galatians. Truth is not isolated.

Although the writer of Hebrews deals with Jews who were returning to sacrificing animals and the law, Hebrews is not just for them. It is for us. All Scripture is given by inspiration and is profitable…

The Holy Spirit who inspired the Word will teach me all things…and BTW I do read things in context. The Bible says what it means and means what it says. The trouble comes when we start believing that we can’t understand it by the power of the Spirit. We start believing the Catholic Pope that he must interpret things for us or JP or any number of extreme teachers who wish to push their own agenda on the flock.

JK. You said: “I believe that if someone went to Carolyns friend in Grace God would restore that man to fellowship with Himself. But how many of us approach each other in Grace? Instead we are judgmental and want to see that man cleaned up first( He cant be saved, look at what hes doing!). And Christ came to save sinners and restore mans relationship to Himself. And this poor fellow has never been taught that His yolk is EASY.”

This is not the problem, JK. He has had grace applied. I can say that with complete authority. He is unrepentant. Let’s not go with hypothetical. Let’s stick to the facts and with Scripture. Debs got it right. It was not grace that brought the Prodigal back. It was repentance. Grace accepted him back.

And Sue, I agree with you on John 1:9. You just can’t ignore it, can you?

Paul..I know grace. I am accepted in the Beloved. I get it. I’ll see you on the other side.

Sue
Guest
Sue

Peace grace and mercy to you all.

I use a smile to indicate things like a leg pull, but I see I shall have to be more careful when I write. It seems that some take themselves very seriously and are easily offended – sigh. I am here to get encouragement and give some when I can and I have no intention of trying to wind peeps up. I think it fair to say I am similar to Deborah. Straight talking is too often taken as a personal attack with the recipient choosing to be offended and sulk as they demand Pietism. Being sensitive is a good quality, but overly sensitive will cause trouble, even division. So in case someone is wondering, I speak as I find, have little patience for the need to butter people up and hate having to walk on eggshells. To me being PC means that I am on my laptop. To my understanding, it is both kind and loving to speak out God’s Truth, even if it offends, and it does!

John #84 and #138
“My question is “do those who are ‘saved’ at ‘seeker sensitive’ churches REALLY believe?”. The gospel that is presented to them is a false, shallow all encompassing gospel which is a “wide way” to salvation. True faith responds to what you believe. Do these hearers REALLY believe that they are sinners who are perishing, going to hell and who realise they NEED to be saved who believe that Jesus is the ONLY way to the Father and the ONLY way to be saved and that His blood is sufficient to cleanse them from their sins?”

Came across to me as rather frenetic (overly intense). My comment was to try and calm while advising you to seek The Lord for clarity. To add that I have read said article and while much is harmless enough, I find Calvinistic traits within it, especially LS. You may be unaware, so I was agreeing with Carolines SECOND appraisal of that particular piece. Yes, you DO know me John, you know how alert I am about LS and I am glad to have Deborah and the others to mediate our views as I want good for you, not bad.

Caroline #96. Mostly dear sister we are on the same page. I am sorting it through where I find a ‘knot’. Phraseology can easily trip me up if I don’t read carefully enough. In this comment, it seems you are both for and against ES concerning 1Cor. I may be mistaken; I haven’t been here very long. On the whole, I am having no trouble cheering you on as with most here. MY touchy point is LS and how insidious it is. Non Calvinists are inadvertently still being sidetracked by their teaching. I was – eg I believed Eph2:8, meant that the faith to believe is given by God as a gift – that’s LS, because the grammar in the Greek makes it very plain that the ‘gift of God’ refers back to ‘saved’. I have some intensive notes somewhere; I need to have a shufty for them.

Carolyn #117 followed by #119 to Jarrod with whom I totally agreed. No I don’t suggest you are a Dominionist at all. Nothing of the sort. I wanted you to consider 1Cor in that light. When I studied it with Robert Dean, I saw that the Greek grammar claims the baddies as genuine believers, but still living as the world they had left, mainly through ignorance. Without repentance and cleansing 1John1:9 They will enter heaven as heirs of God, but not enter the Messianic Kingdom as heirs of CHRIST. Its about the loss of rewards and inheritance. I am not clever enough to explain more thoroughly and I wouldn’t want to fall out with anyone over it.
Just to add that Arminianism does its part to muddy the waters with 1Cor, not just LS.
God bless you Carolyn.

Jarrod: It is startling to find how much in agreement I am with your Free Grace stance (Biblical Christianity). Please allow me to be forthright, I don’t want to sound aggressive, but I am concerned that you MAY run with those who teach a ‘crossless gospel’, I understand it is of great concern within the Free Grace movement. :-\

I so agree concerning the Grace Gifts. We do need to know who we are in Christ, but so many of us are being troubled by false teachings invading our families, we NEED to be able to voice these horrible negatives to help us speak up for the faith within us – well I do, at any rate. God bless smile

To those offended by my ‘naughty’ comment re. Jacob Prasch.

GRACE to you! GRACE GRACE GRACE = UNDESERVED favour – totally unearned. Eph2:8,9 “For by GRACE we are saved, through faith, and that (being saved) not of yourselves, it is the gift of God” = FREE GRACE
Jacob (and me) believed/faithed in Christ trusting Him to keep Him and give JP Eternal Life. The Holy Spirit indwelt JP with a brand new human spirit AND plunged (baptized) JP into Christ’s Body, His Bride, the Church giving JP many spiritual blessings/gifts for Eternity, never to be withdrawn.
JP is your BROTHER in Christ and has a new nature in Christ that tends to be overridden by his old sin nature that is going against the commands/imperatives of God’s Word.
As Jarrod has said so eloquently put, I am looking at JPs POSITION in Christ. I have personally acknowleged JP’s fault in this matter and neither ignored it or winked at it. What JP has done is wickedness, it is SIN, it deserves punishment. Jesus gave His life for JP’s sin, both pre and post salvation sin. Jesus gave JP His righteousness and took JP’s righteousness onto Himself. Jesus Christ has paid the price for Jacob’s sin – and ours.

After telling JP his fault, it is now up to us to pray for God to open the eyes of his understanding and bring JP to repentance 1John1:9.
JP’s hay, wood and stubble works in the flesh shall be burned at the Bema fire, and all his works done in accordance with the leading of the Holy Spirit shall be unharmed by the judgment fire and come forth as gold, silver and precious stones. For this JP will be rewarded, for the rubbish burnt, he will suffer the loss of what SHOULD have been his from the foundations of the earth.

Apologies if my sense of humour has offended anyone, but that’s all it was, a little bit of irony that JP, as a child of the Father, will get a jolly good spanking one way or the other because the Father chastises all those He loves.
This is true of each one of us.

Deborah: God bless your heart as you persist in exposing deception. I know how it hurts, truly I do.

I am unaware of any Scripture that says a genuine Christian will not live in perpetual sin? I do know it is a favourite teaching of LS, one of their little serpents that sneak through the ranks. I have no doubt that JP remains kept by the power of God, I do not doubt that he will be Justly chastised for what he has done, as will we all.

Breifly. The Father has allowed this in your life to hone you. James says we are to learn to ‘count it all joy’ knowing it will produced good fruit in you for your work in ETERNITY. Do we sink in our emotions, or do we take God at His Word e.g Romans 8:28 ALL things work together for good for those who trust in Christ Jesus and are the called.. Proverbs3 Trust in the Lord with all your heart and do not lean on your own understanding, in all your ways ACKNOWLEDGE Him and HE WILL DIRECT YOUR PATHS. This unpleasant business must be seen for what it is, as a tool in the hands of the Sovereign God to shape and mould you by taking Him at His Word. Satan wanted to harm Job, and God said this far and no further, and the end of Job was greater than in the beginning.

Think! – ETERNITY – that’s what all this is about and its coming fast.
Hugs and blessings smile
x

Redeemed
Guest
Redeemed

@ John Chingford:
#139

Sure don’t know how that happened – I copied the link right from the browser and pasted directly to the post. But glad you caught it! Does that mean that you were the only one who bothered to go there? This is one that Jarrod really needs to check out, but it seems that those who have their mind set have their mind set and are really not interested in the truth. I truly hope I am wrong.

Redeemed
Guest
Redeemed

Jarrod # 152

You have shown your true colors here my friend:

What are the fruits that you expect to see if you are judging people if they are saved or not?

What are the things that you judge people for that proves they are not saved?

I will use Carolyns friend again. A hypothetical.

He was a prideful,arrogant, drunk. What if some of his fruit was becoming less prideful and less arrogant but still a drunk? you can see the drinking but did you notice that he was less prideful and arrogant? We dont look for the less pride and arrogance in that man but we will certainly judge his drinking.

It was not the drinking that commenters focused upon. It was his lack of consideration for others, it was his demanding attitude and lack of gratitude shown the Carolyn for taking him in. It was a lack of accountability for his situation. And then finally when deprived of his ability to manipulate and force Carolyn to feed his destructive habits it was his PRIDE and ARROGANCE that caused his ANGER.

You are SO far off the mark it is astounding. How can you say he was less prideful and arrogant? You are so obsessed with NOT looking at condition that you cancel out the reality of the situation! His insistence on having his own way and his ingratitude and his resistance to the Word of God are the focus.

Redeemed
Guest
Redeemed

Reply to Jarrod # 157

Did you read the article I referenced at http://www.faithbiblechurchnh.org/ironside_repentance.htm ?

It is from one of the greatest Bible expositors in recent times who has gone to his reward.
He fully explains what I am trying to say – why re-invent the wheel. Please let this forum know your comments on this article. And I encourage EVERYONE who has been a part of this discussion to read the article and comment.

Repentance is a strong theme throughout the Old as well as the New Testament.
I fully understand the wonderful grace of God, and have made it quite clear that I do not believe in LS although you still insist that I believe in it without realizing it. How preposterous! I do not believe in a works salvation and I do not believe that we maintain our salvation through works. I am NOT a legalist! Got that? Comprehende?

You say you do not “shutter” at easy believism. Sir, you should SHUDDER at it. I believe that the Lord God Almighty SHUDDERS at it and does not accept it! You have a warped concept of God’s grace and that very concept is DANGEROUS because it speaks to eternal destiny. Apparently you approve of the watered-down “gospels” of Rick Warren, Joel Osteen, et al.
1. Luke 15:7
I say to you that likewise there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine just persons who need no REPENTANCE.
2. Luke 24:47
and that REPENTANCE and remission of sins should be preached in His name to all nations, beginning at Jerusalem
3. Acts 20:21
testifying to Jews, and also to Greeks, REPENTANCE toward God and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ.
4. Romans 2:4
Or do you despise the riches of His goodness, forbearance, and longsuffering, not knowing that the goodness of God leads you to REPENTANCE?
5. 2 Corinthians 7:10
For godly sorrow produces REPENTANCE leading to salvation, not to be regretted; but the sorrow of the world produces death.
6. 2 Timothy 2:25
in humility correcting those who are in opposition, if God perhaps will grant them REPENTANCE, so that they may know the truth,
7. 2 Peter 3:9
The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to REPENTANCE.

Redeemed
Guest
Redeemed

Reply to Jarrod # 142

You said:

Redeemed,

Hello your making my point for me. You seem to have a great handle on sin and our condition and everybody else here! now that you have a good handle on that nature, what about your position in Christ. I am not talking about sin here myself, because it seems that everybody here has been taught extremely well about Sin, so why beat a dead horse?

I do not take Grace to the extreme, I just see that most here take sin to the extreme.Jesus took care of our sin problem for us. and His Grace is the only means by which we can “fight ” sin.

With people that believe in Lord ship salvation Grace will always look extreme to those people.

It was our CONDITION that required a Savior to redeem us. It was our SINFUL CONDITION that sent our Lord to the cross. It was our SIN that stood between us and salvation. If that is overemphasis on sin, that you have accused our Lord of overemphasizing it. That may sound extreme, and I don’t like putting i in those terms, but that is the unvarnished truth.

I can’t seem to repeat it enough. I am FULLY AWARE of the error of LS and have been for quite some time and I absolutely reject it. I believe that there are true conversions where the person is sealed by the Holy Spirit, but I also believe that there are false conversions. Those sealed by the Holy Spirit are born-again and are secure in their salvation, NOT by our works but by God’s grace. He saves us, He keeps us.

John Chingford
Guest
John Chingford

Following on from a previous comment of mine (105); it is frustrating when I write an urgent important comment which gets published one day or more later and in the meanwhile a barrage of other comments are written which also appear many hours later.

My comment then appears before all of those because I am the first to write after Debs has finished her publishing for the day (because I am in the UK). What this means is that my comment seems to be out of place and effectively gets lost in the pile up to follow and out of sight. The subsequent comments are written which “seem” to be replies to my comment (if you look at the date and time) but ARE NOT replies.

Sue’s replies and our replies to her are a prime example.

Therefore, I would like to post my earlier comments again on the next comment of mine

John Chingford
Guest
John Chingford

Hi Caroline
re 131 and 132

With respect, you are coming to the scriptures in the wrong way. This is what most believers do and therefore why there are so many false theologies. Please FIRST read this article “How To Study The Bible and Why. Learning How To Avoid Deception” on [removed] and then look at your questions again from that perspective.

Basically, you cannot look at isolated verses OUT OF CONTEXT of the whole overview of God’s plan of salvation as revealed throughout the WHOLE bible and decide upon your doctrine upon a handful (even 2 handfuls) of scripture verses that “seem” to contradict the rest of the WHOLE bible which is overwhelmingly clear (in context) about eternal security.

In any case, there are far more “isolated” verses about eternal security than otherwise as shown in my eternal security article.

However, we should NEVER build up our theology on just some isolated verses but on the WHOLE Bible.

Because I have fully studied the Bible I am totally convinced that God’s plan of salvation is that those who truly believe and are born again will NEVER lose it.

Now I have said that, we should all from that contextual position be able to answer Carolyn’s questions which apparently contradict our position. In fact, it is easier to come up with answers to these than vice versa.

Carolyn.

1) You have the Holy Spirit within you. You are a truly born again believer. There is NO POSSIBLE WAY that the Holy Spirit will lead you back into the Catholic fold because HE has already revealed the truth to you. God is not a god of confusion but a God of peace. Those who go back to the Catholic church DID NOT ever have the Holy Spirit. Your statement is hypothetical irrelevance.

2) Did Jesus need to “earn” His salvation?
Sounds like a crazy non sensical question. However, I will show you that what you are asking is similarly ludicrous. Please read Hebrews 5:7-9:

“Who in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death, and was heard in that he feared;

Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;

And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;”

If you simply read those words in isolation, you would come to the conclusion that Jesus used to be imperfect, who needed to learn how to be obedient/sinless through suffering.

However, surely you agree that those verses do not mean that. Why not? You know it doesn’t mean that because of CONTEXT of the whole Bible. We know that Jesus was sinless, never failed His Father. So what does it mean? The context is about GROWTH.

Perfection needs to be tested through temptation and suffering. Jesus WAS perfect but despite this HAD to face temptations and trials to PROVE/test His perfection to show He was the conqueror of sin and therefore can become one who can identify with our weaknesses. The word perfection means to be fully tested and come through with “flying colours” and it can mean “completion”.

Why do I say these things? You state that genuine faith is tested. Yes IT IS tested. It is tested in the way that Jesus was tested. Was Jesus ever in danger of being anything other than the eternal Son of God and Redeemer? NO! But even still He was tested.

If Jesus was tested but with no possibilty of Him ever failing, so in like wise we will never lose our salvation despite our testings IF we are truly born again.

3) Who are those who harden their hearts? It is unbelievers! Those who chose NOT to believe. It is not true believers. We are those who did not harden our hearts but RECEIVED, believed in Jesus. Although it is possible for us to occasionally harden our hearts in certain things, the verse is not saying that we can go to hell because of it. Much of Hebrews is referring to “rewards”. Rewards is not the same as “salvation”. We can lose rewards but we DO NOT lose our salvation. Rewards are to do with our “works” as believers. Some will obtain greater rewards than others because of their dedication to their Saviour, but we all obtain the same salvation.

Those who yield to sin (for a season) will suffer the loss of wonderful fellowship with Jesus and all the blessings that are attached to our obedience. If we are disobedient we can suffer the corrections from our Father and miss out on fellowship. That is NOT the same as losing salvation. It is LOSING FELLOWSHIP. But fellowship is restored every time we repent. This is not the same as salvation because we are already saved if we are truly Born again.

Carolyn, it is important to understand the background to the Book of Hebrews. The writer was addressing issues that were happening amongst the Judaic believers who were being influenced by Judaizers. They were being influenced to return back to OT ways but only retain Jesus as an extra. The writer was trying to illustrate how nonsensical it was to return back to that old way of life by using rhetorical/hypothetical questions confronting the nonsense in what the Judaizers were telling them.

For example “those who have already been enlightened …..if they fall away …. to repent again ….” The falling away is not referring to losing salvation but falling from the benefits/blessings of grace. The writers arguments are that those who fall back into the law are leaving the benefits of salvation/grace and will therefore lose those benefits. It is NOT talking about losing salvation. It is hypothetical because it is impossible for them to lose even the benefits of grace because THEY are saved (certainly those readers who have already truly believed in the gospel). Impossible to repent again. Well of course it is impossible because they are already born again. How can you return back to being unborn again?

I challenge you Carolyn to look at all your conflicting verses again and see if you can use the same type of contextual arguments that I have used. Please always ask these type of questions “who is the writer writing to?” “why is he writing these things?” “how does this compare with other verses of scripture that seem to conflict?” “Why is there a conflict?” “what is the GENERAL teaching on this throughout the Bible?” How do I reconcile this with the revealed nature of God?”

You can ask other questions and ask the Lord to help you with the answers. If you do this, you will find that all those conflicting verses DO NOT contradict OSAS at all.

John Chingford
Guest
John Chingford

Sue

I am confused by your comment on comment 123

“All that thinking will frazzle your brain. wink You will get your answers soon enough.”

What thinking? The questions I gave included rhetorical questions (because the answers are obvious) and (hopefully) stimulating questions. I already know the answers to most of my questions, but am trying to stimulate readers to think and answer the questions themselves. The clues/answers are in the scriptures I quoted. The answers are important to the topic of OSAS and should convince the readers that OSAS is truth.

Hi Redeemed re 130. That link is wrong. The last letter should be “m” not “g”

http://www.faithbiblechurchnh.org/ironside_repentance.htm

John Chingford
Guest
John Chingford

Sue,
By the way, where on earth do you get those interpretations on what I was saying, from? For example, you have completely misrepresented me regarding the “P” and actually made it personal regarding my blog etc etc.

John Chingford
Guest
John Chingford

Sue,
By the way, where on earth do you get those interpretations on what I was saying, from? For example, you have completely misrepresented me regarding the “P” and actually made it personal regarding my blog etc etc.

Please do not bring in to this blog that same vendetta you had against me on two other sites which I had to leave because of your false accusations and nastiness. I came to this site to get a clean break from all that went on there. Why are you here? You took a great dislike to me on my blog once you falsely perceived me to be a LS adherent and the nastiness started from there with you accusing me of other things which were not true, specifically personal things.

It is starting to kick off here again – now that you feel that you have your foot in the door.

Where can I go to have decent fellowship without your personal vendetta always showing up? I never told you about this site because I have been trying to avoid you. Again, why are you here?

Redeemed
Guest
Redeemed

Sue, grace and peace backatcha. Your sense of humor is delightful.

Please look at these verses regarding the PRACTICE of sin. The New Testament is filled with exhortations and admonitions to PRACTICING a Christ-honoring lifestyle.

If one PRACTICES a sinful lifestyle, it is an indication of a serious back-slidden condition or that there was never a genuine conversion with TRUE repentance and understanding of one’s sinful condition. In either case, there is a need to go back to “square one” and cover that ground.

1. 2 Corinthians 12:21
lest, when I come again, my God will humble me among you, and I shall mourn for many who have sinned before and have not repented of the uncleanness, fornication, and lewdness which they have practiced.

2. 2 Peter 2:14
having eyes full of adultery and that cannot cease from sin, enticing unstable souls. They have a heart trained in covetous practices, and are accursed children.

Redeemed
Guest
Redeemed

Jarrod does not realize it, and will most certainly deny it, but he is promoting what is called “license” –A PERVERSION OF GOD’S GRACE. He is giving a pass to unholy living and thereby unwittingly denying the nature of God who HATES sin. THIS IS A MOST SERIOUS ERROR! I am most concerned that others may be led astray and harm and confusion come to the Body of Christ.

The Bible is filled with exhortations for believers to live a lifestyle honoring to God. This is NOT legalism! ANYONE WHO SAYS SUCH EXHORTATIONS ARE LEGALISTIC IS SAYING THE BIBLE PROMOTES LEGALISM! This is speaking about the conduct of believers, NOT about salvation! No one at the point of salvation has a full concept of what it means to live for Christ, but if they are truly born-again, they are indwelt by the Holy Spirit who will draw them away from sin through conviction.

Romans 6:1,2,6.12
6 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound?
2 Certainly not! How shall we who died to sin LIVE ANY LONGER IN IT?
12 Therefore DO NOT LET SIN REGH IN YOUR MORTAL BODY, that you should obey it in its lusts.

Titus 2:11-15

11 For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men, 12 teaching us that, DENYING UNGODLINESS AND WORLDLY LUSTS, WE SHOULD LIVE SOBERLY, RIGHEOUSLY, AND GODLY IN THE PRESENT AGE 13 looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ, 14 who gave Himself for us, that He might redeem us from every lawless deed and purify for Himself His own special people, zealous for good works.
15 Speak these things, EXHORT, REBUKE WITH ALL AUTHORITY. Let no one despise you.

Peter admonishes saints to live holy lives.

Since all these things are to be destroyed in this way, WHAT SORT OF PEOPLE OUGHT YOU TO BE IN HOLY CONDUCT AND GODLINESS. (2 Pet. 3:11).

Jude, the half-brother of the Lord, in his little postcard epistle saw the need to warn believers about those who pervert grace.
Jude 3-4
3 Beloved, while I was very diligent to write to you concerning our common salvation, I found it NECESSARY to write to you exhorting you to contend earnestly for the faith which was once for all delivered to the saints. 4 For certain men have crept in unnoticed, who long ago were marked out for this condemnation, ungodly men, WHO TURN THE GRACE OF OUR GOD INTO LEWDNESS and deny the only Lord God[a] and our Lord Jesus Christ.

John O'Rourke
Guest
John O'Rourke

I have a question to ask you, and it’s a personal question that you may be able to help me out with. I’m a christian over 20 years and have been baptised with God’s Holy Spirit. I love the LORD, and to be honest my walk with God has not always been great. I’ve made a lot of stupid decisions in life, but as I said I do love the Lord in my heart.

My question, if you can help. I love God’s word and reading it, yet when I’m at home sharing God’s word with others i’m fine and share the word. However, when I’m up in front of people reading God’s word i get very, very nervous. I really mean this. Even if i’m reading a small passage of scripture (like 5 verses) it happens. I would really like some insight into this please as this is a genuine email.

john o’rourke
sligo , ireland

TruthfulConversation
Guest
TruthfulConversation

Yes Sue, I would like to know the answer to that question too? Why did you apologise to John on his blog and then follow him to DTW, where you are obviously trying to cause trouble..AGAIN! Praise God, Jesus looks after Debs and the genuine people that come here searching for truth too. Jarrod, I welcomed you, and now you have been proved to be another one trying to foist your false teaching on DTW. It makes me angry, but that is okay, because when I am angry I pray more effectively, and I will be praying that the Lord will expose EACH and EVERY false teaching and trouble maker.

Carolyn
Guest
Carolyn

We’ve all made our positions clear. And I appreciate the opportunity to do so. I don’t have to be right, but I don’t have to be wrong either.

However, what distinguishes us as Christians is our love for one another. That and obedience to Christ’s commands. I believe if we don’t see love in our fellow Christian, then something in the flesh is choking it out. Or it was never there to begin with. Love must predominate. Without love we are merely clanging gongs and tingling cymbals. And I say for the most part in this discussion, love and respect has presided. Everyone is ultimately responsible for his/her own words and attitude before the Lord.

Although, I’m a bit preoccupied right now with a few persecutions of my own, I will be sticking around. I’m just choosing not to die on this particular hill. I’d like to live to fight another day. I learned some things here. My faith was strengthened by the exchange as was my appreciation for treating each other with respect. Thank you for moderating the comments, Debs. Not an easy task with so many varying thoughts.

2 Thessalonians 1:2-4
New American Standard Bible (NASB)
2 Grace to you and peace from God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
3 We ought always to give thanks to God for you, brethren, as is only fitting, because your faith is greatly enlarged, and the love of each one of you toward one another grows ever greater; 4 therefore, we ourselves speak proudly of you among the churches of God for your perseverance and faith in the midst of all your persecutions and afflictions which you endure.

The persecutions you/we are feeling will continue until we reach the other side. That’s a promise…sometimes they come with stealth, sometimes swiftly and brutally, but they always come….sometimes through personal attacks and sometimes through adverse circumstances that Satan sets up for us…we must be aware of his devices. But we must also be aware that God is with us in times of trouble. Take Job, for instance…God was silent but not distant.
2 Timothy 3:12
“Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution….”

We can minimize the effects of our persecutors as we love each other and stay in prayer and in the Word. Good advice for us all.

Carolyn
Guest
Carolyn

Debs, I used a different email address…hence a different icon. I kinda like my purple face better. smile

John Chingford
Guest
John Chingford

Hi Debs

I noticed that Jarrod had come to us from the EX Preacherman site. As I understand it, Faith also comes from that site. Why did they come to ours? Obviously they believe we are false teachers who need to be exposed. Sue has now joined that site.

I once wrote to Jack (the ex preacherman) because on first glance the site looked okay.
The reason I wrote to him was because I was putting together my article on New Calvinism (in 2011) and found his site in the process. I was wanting to get all my facts straight about the whole subject, looking at the distinctions between biblical salvation compared with the false Calvinist version.

I wrote (just once) on that site asking sincere questions. The response I got was unbelievably ungracious.

I simply asked them a question to help me understand something. Jack immediately labelled me LS and called me a heretic. He said “your teaching is Lordship salvation which is heresy. We do not accept heretics like you on our site and WILL NOT publish your comments”

That comment (of a year ago) has now been removed.

This is the comment I wrote which was not published (please tell me what is so wrong with it, why he would label me a LS teacher and why I was treated so terrible – it was my very first comment):

“Hi Everyone
I have read everything here and can see the points you are making. However, I notice that no-one mentioned the following passage of scripture.

“yet now I am happy, not because you were made sorry, but because your sorrow led you to repentance. For you became sorrowful as God intended and so were not harmed in any way by us. Godly sorrow brings repentance that leads to salvation and leaves no regret, but worldly sorrow brings death. See what this godly sorrow has produced in you: what earnestness, what eagerness to clear yourselves, what indignation, what alarm, what longing, what concern, what readiness to see justice done.” 2 Cor 7:9-11

The key words were “Godly sorrow brings repentance that leads to salvation”
When I consider the context of the passage, it IS in regard to believers (not the unsaved). However, scripture often adds a GENERAL piece of teaching (within the specific part) which can be generally applied to all people, such as “Godly sorrow brings repentance that leads to salvation”.

If repentance means a change of mind, that text could say “Godly sorrow brings about a change of mind which leads to salvation”. Therefore, true repentance is not possible without first having “Godly sorrow” about sin. Granted it does not mention a “turning from sin” but it DOES require a Godly sorrow.

Therefore, true repentance is stimulated by GODLY sorrow for sin and a recognition that salvation can be found in no-one else except Jesus..

There surely must come a time in a sinners life when they realise they need salvation from their sin. They learn about the sacrifice Jesus made for their sin and then need to place their faith upon Jesus as the only one who can save them from their sin and bring them into the presence of God.

I believe that this whole process is led and directed by the Holy Spirit who “convicts the world regarding righteousness, sin and judgement”. The Holy Spirit leads a sinner to repentance (which includes a Godly sorrow for sin) and faith in Jesus.

I then ask you: how does a person become “born-again” or become born as a child of God?
Paul stated that we have become “a new creation in Christ Jesus, all things old have passed away, all things now become new” and “it is no longer I that live but Christ who lives in me”. How can that happen if all they have done is accepted Jesus mentally?

Surely we ALL need to receive Jesus into our hearts in order to be born-again? I am not talking about making Jesus Lord of our lives, but simply receiving Him into our hearts. Lordship comes later through the sanctifying work of the Holy Spirit and is NOT dependant on our salvation. This is what I currently believe.

Please understand, I am not pushing my view. I am actually asking for your explanation. If I have got any of it wrong, I am very happy to be corrected – only I need to be persuaded by clear scriptural evidence.

Thanks and God bless”

Those at EX Preacherman site are too obsessed with “straining a gnat” that they “swallow a camel”. They are so very nit picking watching out for every mention of the word repentance to quickly attack us as LS teachers. You probably observed that with Sue’s, Jarrod’s and Faith’s comments here. Wherever they go they cause confusion. Is that deliberate?

On their site, I have just noticed them decimating Luke 13:3 by taking that verse WAY OUT OF context. This is what they do. Like all false teachers they arrive at their doctrine by taking verses out of their proper context and by so doing destroy the doctrine. See how John and Califgracer defend their “repentance” views from http://expreacherman.com/2012/12/18/dave-hunts-berean-call-promoting-not-only-calvinism-but-now-the-terrible-lordship-salvation-of-ray-comfort/#comment-16153

Why don’t they read on and especially the parable verses 4-9?

The context related to God’s dealings with Israel (the Jews) it was before Jesus died for their sins and it was a final call to Israel to repent otherwise they would perish in their sins and no longer be the “light to the gentiles”. Later on Jesus said “you will not see me again until you say ‘blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord’ and ‘your house is now being left desolate’.

If those at that site would look at verses 2 and 4 they would see that Jesus is referring to repentance from sin. The context is clear “unless you change your minds and stop sinning, you too will perish”.

In the OT it is clear that repentance is understood differently. In 2 Chron 7:14 it says ” If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.”

After Jesus died for our sins by becoming the PERFECT sacrifice we entered into the dispensation of grace, but before then (as in Luke 3) salvation was still dependant on imperfect, incomplete, temporary sacrifices which required a “turning from sin”.

So it is clear from the context of Luke 13 and especially from verses 6-9 that Jesus was looking to Israel (for 3 years) for fruit i.e evidence of fruit that comes with a changed mind i.e repentant hearts leading to a turning from sin.

So, although I agree that under the new covenant of grace a “turning from sin” is no longer required BEFORE salvation and that all that is required is a “looking unto Jesus” for our salvation through faith, Luke 13 shows that the word “repent” clearly has different facets to its meaning and CAN possibly include a Godly sorrow for sins as explained in my comment (to that site) above.

Carolyn
Guest
Carolyn

John… (tongue in cheek) re #175 perhaps the word “Lordship” was picked up by the spell checker and you were an automatic dismissal.
Your quote: “Lordship comes later through the sanctifying work of the Holy Spirit and is NOT dependant on our salvation. This is what I currently believe.”

That’s all I could come up with. smile

Debs…I have trouble keeping up with the comments, never mind sorting them. And then there are those that are continually trying to straighten you out like Job’s friends who want to help you see your hidden sins. Bottom line. We remain faithful to the gospel. Satan comes against us. Period. Doesn’t mean we are doing anything wrong…in fact, just the opposite.

Keep up the good work of contending for the faith!

John chingford
Guest
John chingford

@ Carolyn re 178:

You may be right. However, the Ex Preacherman Jack and all his disciples (which now includes Holly) on his site have been brainwashed by repetition after repetition that repentance (as part of being born again) has NO part in our being saved because THEY CLAIM it is a work of self effort. They claim that anyone who preaches that an unbeliever needs to repent (including a Godly sorrow for sin) MUST BE a LS preacher.

They are denying the work of the Holy spirit which is to “convict the world concerning righteousness, sin and judgement. This work includes a work in producing a Godly sorrow for sin which leads to repentance (a change of mind) and to receiving Jesus as Saviour from sin. They cannot and should not separate repentance from salvation – but they do!

Anyone who dares to challenge them on that gets ostracised. Every article, every comment that is posted on that blog is always on the same subject i.e refuting LS and quoting hand picked verses (well out of context) to support their ONGOING brainwashing until readers have been brainwashed and yield to it.

HOLLY I strongly urge you to remove yourself from them because they have gone FAR too extreme and ARE rejecting major parts of the Bible. If you give us a chance we CAN prove (from scripture) how wrong they are.

For example they are now discussing (again nit picking) that the Bible does not say that we should invite Jesus into our hearts and are disputing the word “heart”. It is obvious now that they do not believe that conversion is anything other than a change of thinking and simply (mentally) believing in Jesus ONLY. They claim that this believing (without repentance) is sufficient to become born again as a new creation. I ask, how can that happen if it is only the thinking that has been converted? What about the soul? If they accept that the soul has received Jesus, then they are simply nit picking. whether we are talking about the soul or the heart BOTH amount to the same thing. We STILL need to invite Jesus into our heart (ooops I mean soul) to be saved.