The DIFFERENCE Between Assurance of Salvation and CALVINISM’S Perseverance of the Saints

Assurance of Salvation

The DIFFERENCE Between Assurance of Salvation (Once Saved, Always Saved) and CALVINISM’S Perseverance of the Saints (Once CHOSEN, Always CHOSEN)

There is a BIG DIFFERENCE between Calvinism’s version of ‘once saved, always saved’ and the BIBLICAL version of Assurance of Salvation.

You see, Calvinists believe you are CHOSEN by God before you are born, therefore you are actually ‘ONCE CHOSEN, ALWAYS CHOSEN’.  If you are Elect, you can’t become un-elect!   The Biblical version is WE HAVE FREE WILL, when you come to accept Jesus as your Lord and Saviour, you are REGENERATED;  the Holy Spirit comes to abide in you and HE SEALS YOU, and your name is written in to the book of Life.

Philippians 4:3    “Yes, I ask you also, true companion, help these women, who have labored side by side with me in the gospel together with Clement and the rest of my fellow workers, whose names are in the book of life.”

Revelation 3:5 also makes is clear that once a name is written in the book of life, Jesus PROMISES that He will never blot it out.

Revelation 3:5    “The one who conquers will be clothed thus in white garments, and I will never blot his name out of the book of life. I will confess his name before my Father and before his angels.”

Who are those who have conquered? Well these are those who have overcome the trials of earthly life and are genuinely saved.   In Revelation, Jesus was speaking to all the Churches, and He promises to acknowledge us before His Own Father and the angels, those whose names are written in the book of life.   Unfortunately (Revelations 20:15) reveals the fate of those whose names that are NOT written in the book of life and they go to the lake of fire

Revelation 20:15    And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.”

In Revelation 13:8 and Revelation  21:27, we find the references to the “Lamb’s book of life”,  in which are also names of all those who have been washed by the blood of the Lamb, Jesus Christ. The Lamb who has been “slain from the creation of the world” has a book in which are written all those who have been redeemed by His sacrifice. They are the ones who will enter the Holy City, the New Jerusalem (Revelation 21:10) and who will live forever in heaven with God. Since the book of life is that which records all who have eternal life through the Lamb, it’s clear that the book of life and the Lamb’s book of life are one and the same.

When the Holy Spirit comes to abide in us, he stays there foreverHe does not come and go and come and go each time you fall into some kind of sin.

John 14:16   “And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Helper, to be with you forever. “

The fact that the Holy Spirit will never leave a believer is also seen in (Ephesians 1:13-14) where believers are said to be “sealed” with the Holy Spirit,

Ephesians 1:13-14    “13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, 14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.”   

The envision of being sealed with the Spirit is one of ownership and possession. God has promised eternal life to all who are genuinely born again, and as a guarantee that He will keep His promise, He has sent the Holy Spirit to abide in the believer until the day of redemption. Kind of like making a down payment/deposit on a house or a car, God has provided all believers with a DEPOSIT on their future relationship with Him by sending the Holy Spirit to abide in them. The fact that all believers are sealed with the Spirit is also seen in (2 Corinthians 1:22 and Ephesians 4:30).

2 Corinthians 1:22   Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts.”   

Ephesians 4:30  “And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.”

NOW LOOK AT THIS – DIFFERENCE BETWEEN OLD COVENANT AND NEW COVENANT:

Now, BEFORE Jesus’ death, resurrection, and ascension into heaven, before the NEW COVENANT, the Holy Spirit had a “come and go” relationship with people.  The Holy Spirit indwelt King Saul, but then He departed from him:

1 Samuel 16:14  “But the Spirit of the LORD departed from Saul, and an evil spirit from the LORD troubled him.”

Here (1 Samuel 16:13) we read that the Holy Spirit came upon David.  But after his adultery with Bathsheba, David feared that the Holy Spirit would be taken from him.

Psalm 51:11   “Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy holy spirit from me.”

In (Exodus 31:2-5) we read that the the Holy Spirit filled Bezaleel to enable him to produce the items needed for the tabernacle, but this is not described as a permanent relationship.

The Holy Spirit filled Elizabeth when she heard about Mary’s conception and her baby leaped in her womb.

Luke 1:41   “And it came to pass, that, when Elisabeth heard the salutation of Mary, the babe leaped in her womb; and Elisabeth was filled with the Holy Ghost

But all of this changed beginning on the day of Pentecost, (Acts 2) the Holy Spirit began permanently indwelling believers.  Pentecost was the commissioning of the Christian church and the fulfillment of God’s promise to always be with us and never forsake us.

Now, understand this, while the Holy Spirit will never leave a GENUINE believer, it is possible for our sin to “quench the Holy Spirit” or “grieve the Holy Spirit”

Quenching the Holy Spirit:  1 Thessalonians 5:19   “Quench not the Spirit.”

Grieving the Holy Spirit:   Ephesians 4:30   “And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.”

Sin ALWAYS has consequences in our relationship with Jesus. While our relationship with God is SECURE in Jesus Christ, UNCONFESSED SIN sin in our lives WILL hinder our relationship with God and it will quench the Holy Spirit’s working in our lives. That is why it is so important to ask Jesus for forgiveness of our sins because God is “faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.” (1 John 1:9).   So, while the Holy Spirit will never leave us, the reward and joy of His presence in our lives will feel far away, because sin drives a wedge between us and God and we are effectively distancing ourselves from Jesus.

As Christians SEALED by the Holy Spirit you will still sin, but if you are genuinely born again, the Holy Spirit will CHASTISE you every time you sin and you will sooner than later repent of your sins.  But there are people who PROFESS to be Christian and they do not have the Holy Spirit in then.  These are people who can speak Jesus’ name, they go to church, even have big ministries teaching people the bible and they sound so intelligent, but they have not been REGENERATEDbecause they refuse to give up their sinful ways, they refuse to pick up their cross and follow Jesus.

Luke 14:27   “Whoever does not bear his own cross and come after me cannot be my disciple.”

They think they can have it both ways.

2 Timothy 3:5   They will maintain the outward appearance of religion but will have repudiated its powerSo avoid people like these.

They have bad fruit, they follow doctrines of demons, and they mingle with evil people and very easily compromise the Word of God for the sake of ‘unity’.

Satan always does twist scripture for his own advantage and tell people that at an alter call if they just pray the sinners pray they will be saved and never lose it, but God knows who is GENUINELY saved and who isn’t.  We CAN’T fool Him.  People CAN FOOL EACH OTHER into believing they are real Christians, when in fact they are not.  And how do we tell if they are not, well by the things they do and say (the fruit of the spirit)  – the words the speak/preach. But even then, sometimes we meet some ‘great pretenders’ some brilliant con-artists and it takes a long time to figure them out.

See this article as well:  Eternal Security – Genuinely Saved, Always Saved!

Please share:

Deborah (Discerning the World)

Deborah Ellish is the author of the above article. Discerning the World is an internet Christian Ministry based in Johannesburg South Africa. Tom Lessing and Deborah Ellish both own Discerning the World. For more information see the About this Website page below the comments section.

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20 Comment authors
Deborah (Discerning the World)hemrajWayne JackmichaelJohn Chingford Recent comment authors
Carolyn
Guest
Carolyn

Well said, Debs. One of the things that sets the Truth apart from the fictional TULIP doctrine, is that the Truth never distorts the character of God. From the beginning that I studied the TULIP doctrine, the glaring error of showing God to be unjust in not giving man any choice in his destiny was what made me throw it out…baby and all! Yes, it is true that God COULD make all the choices for us and COULD predestinate us to heaven or hell without our consent, but he has chosen to give us choice. He doesn’t want robots serving him, he wants genuine faith.
Galatians 6:
7 Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.
8 For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.

I think it remains a mystery to some as to why some people come alive to the things of God (are saved) and some who make the profession (do not have the spiritual flame ignited). They still have no interest. And they are still happy in their sin…

From my observations over the years, I would say that you get what you want. At one time there was someone who I wanted to become a Christian very badly, and I thought I could pray them and talk them into it but although they prayed the sinner’s prayer, they remained unchanged and unmoved toward spiritual things. In the end, the Lord helped me to see that they didn’t want it. They wanted their own life. And that, m’dear is what they got. Until they want something else, their choice will keep them tied to this world. They will see no need to repent and they will mock God and continue to sow to the flesh.

Jarrod Kruger
Guest
Jarrod Kruger

Thank you both Carolyn and Debs for pointing that out to me.

Because that very subject needs to be addressed in more detail.

Paul answers your disagreement in verse 11. The new Creation in Christ.

It profits them nothing to keep acting in their flesh, because nothing from our flesh will enter the Kingdom. Only our new creation in Christ will Go to the Kingdom. Paul is telling them that the old nature has no way of recieving the Kingdom.

We have two natures as believers. Rom 7:17

Paul is basically telling the Corinthians,” why are you guys doing these things? You should know by now that the flesh profits you nothing, you should know by now that that part of you can not see the Kingdom so why are you doing these things?”

We have all done some of those things that Paul told the Corinthians not to do! Even if we keep on doing it,it is the old man in us that does it, not our new creation. And the old man is not going when we die!

He was teaching them that the old sin nature will not make it, only the new creation that we get at the point of belief in Christ alone will make it to the Kingdom. So LIVE in the new instead of the old!

Here is a little study on some verses that are tough.

From careful study it will be seen that the so-called “insecurity passages” are not such in reality,
that they do not oppose the positive doctrine of security, and that they seem to teach insecurity
only when they are misunderstood or misapplied. Certain, of these do not apply to the Christian
since they belong to another dispensation (Matt. 24:13; Ezk. 33:7, 8; Matt. 18:23-35; 25:30).
Other passages refer only to false and unregenerate teachers of the “last days” (1 Tim. 4:1, 2; 2
Pet. 2:1-22; Jude 1:17-19). One passage describes that which is merely a moral reformation
(Luke 11:24-26). Several of these Scriptures bear on the important fact that Christian profession
is justified by its fruits. Salvation which is of God will, under normal conditions, prove itself to
be such by its own fruits (1 John 3:10; John 8:31; 15:6; 2 Pet. 1:10; Jas. 2:14-26; 1 Cor. 15:1, 2;
Heb. 3:6, 14). In addition to this, there are certain passages that contain warnings which, when
rightly interpreted, do not imply the insecurity of the believer under grace. Jews are warned that
since their sacrifices have ceased they must turn to Christ or be lost (Heb. 10:26), in like manner,
unsaved Jews as well as Gentiles are warned against “falling away” from the illuminating,
converting work of the Spirit (Heb. 6:4-9). So, also, unspiritual Jews are warned that they will
not be received into the coming kingdom (Matt. 25:1-13), and Gentiles are given a corporate
warning which has no reference to the individual believer (Rom. 11:21). Again, the one who is
saved and safe may lose his reward (1 Cor. 3:15; Col. 1:21-23), and be disapproved concerning
his service for Christ (1 Cor. 9:27). Likewise, he may lose his fellowship because of sin (1 John
1:6), and he may be chastened of God (1 Cor. 11:29-32; John 15:2; 1 John 5:16). And, finally, it
is possible for the believer to “fall from grace” (Gal. 5:1-4), which, however, is never
accomplished by sinning; for the Christian falls from grace only when he turns from his true
liberty under grace to the bondage of the law

Sue
Guest
Sue

Short answers on a BIG subject are fraught with contentions. But I need to try. Please find book, chapter and verse for me, they are there. wink

John: All that thinking will frazzle your brain. wink You will get your answers soon enough. Have you asked your Father to explain by His Spirit? If, you have asked, are you actually expecting Him to answer – He will! For starters, Peter said to Jesus ‘to whom else will I go, only YOU have the Words of Eternal Life’ THE Gospel is the power of God unto Salvation, not any other. Believe what ‘good news’ we fancy, but we will reap only what is sown in us. The Fruit of the Holy Spirit or Rhubarb!

Paul: Absolutely, all the fierce and sharp things that bump against us are actually approved by the Lord. NOTHING, can test your faith unless the Father wills it to hone you into one of His precious jewels. The other Paul said ‘count it all JOY’ when we come up against Satan’s tricks, he is but a worm given permission to test our metal. Why? To prepare us for our part to play in Eternity (that’s why all this ‘spiritual warfare’ is such tripe! This life is only Boot Camp to earn our stripes. Yes, I said EARN, is that WORKS? Oh yes, those approved, applying the Word and walking in the Holy Spirit, with a promised reward and those disproved, of the flesh, that are going to be burned at the Bema fire.

Redeemed: Please don’t be offended as I was taking your own advice to discern. wink Lordship Salvation is a very sneaky little snake that slithers in almost unnoticed until we are wise to it. smile I am choosing not to be offended by the – urgg – ‘greasy grace’ remark, because THAT is also a LS offence against those of us who insist Salvation is by Faith alone; there is nothing ‘greasy’ about the Grace that has saved us from sin. LS put the horse before the cart causing a ‘work’ necessary for Salvation i.e. IF you do sin, you were never saved in the first place = a work extra to faith being ‘sin free’. It can’t be done and isn’t a condition for Salvation. Otherwise my friend, we are on the same page. Praise The Lord and give us a hug. smile

Jarrod Krugar:”I would question you if you truly know Grace. Because someone who has tasted Grace from Christ would know that that is not the first inclination of a truly born again Christian.

AMEN JK! Sin is inevitable with our ‘old man’ – BUT – there are serious consequences from a ‘rap on the knuckles’ to premature death. Worse yet is being given over to the rebellious sin we choose to wallow in. If you get this JK, you’re the bro for me. smile

Caroline: You are my sister in Christ, just like me, there are few knots to untie with the Holy Spirits leading. smile

Deborah: Dear busy little bee with the sting in her tail – good work in this ‘vineyard’! More pollen (Truth) results in more fruit! I love and respect JP; but he can be very naughty at times. wink

Sue
Guest
Sue

@ Carolyn:
Something for you to consider – entering the Kingdom (the 1000 yr Messianic Rule of Messiah on EARTH) this is NOT the same as entering Heaven! smile

Jarrod Kruger
Guest
Jarrod Kruger

I just want to encourage everyone to focus on the CREATOR and your new position in Christ and not on the CONDITION of the Creature.

All of Christiandom focuses on our CONDITION rather than our wonderful and SECURE POSITION in Christ.

I find it sad that most christians are experts in our depravity, but only know one or two of the 40 or more Grace gifts that we recieve at the moment we believe in Christ. We need teachers out there to teach of the freedom and the security we have have in our position.

And most of the fruits in Christ(fruits that man wants to see) are not visible to man, but God sees them with out a doubt!

Redeemed
Guest
Redeemed

Jarrod, in response to #114;

I have to disagree. It is very important that the Gospel be presented uncompromingly. I know one person who thinks presenting the Gospel is saying to the person – Jesus loves you – do you want to accept Him? Anyone who accepts such a perverted “gospel” and this is what I meant by “easy believism”. Believing in a watered-down “gospel”. There is no salvation in such a “gospel”.

Redeemed
Guest
Redeemed

@ Jarrod Kruger:
The term “cheap grace” does not refer to the actuality of God’s unspeakable grace. No, it refers to those who fail to appreciate what Christ has done for them and this is their attitude toward God’s grace, not treating it as something precious like a perfect diamond, something of value. If they did they would hate their sin as Christ does and desire to serve Him and cut anything out of their lives that is offensive to him.

Faith
Guest
Faith

Jarrod,
How come I am seeing you everywhere. smile
You are exactly right Jarrod with your analysis. If we do not rest solely on the POWER of Christs death for us- what good is it? His death is what saved us from death (law) and yet many keep trying to bring death (law) back. Do we not trust in Him to keep us eternally secure? Unfortunately, we do not have sermons on security or rewards in heaven. Oh am I so glad that I got away from these lies. I was also saved at nine, but veered away. Some of the fault went to my parents who did not disciple me properly. This is the key- MOST are not properly discipled. Most end up staying like babes- staying on milk, not eating meat. I did not truly realize the Holy Spirits work until I went through depression; but the growth took years and still going. Each sin of mine the Holy Spirit started convicting, but I had to listen and obey. This is what is co-laboring. We are to co-labor with Christ; when we stop then we cannot grow. This has nothing to do with our justification, but all to do with our sanctification.
When Christ wanted to deal with guilt in my life He convicted, but my change did not take over automatically; it was a process. But one day I was sitting on my couch and the Holy Spirit spoke to my heart and told me that was it- He would take over this area of sin. I still struggle with guilt sometimes but I know the quickening of the HS and how to deal with it.
This is why I get infuriated with many pastors and leaders today because they are teaching a WORKS “gospel” and many Christians are burdened and in despair because they cannot meet the standards- Any HOW can they?? We can rest in Christ.

Faith
Guest
Faith

Debra
I know you have never seen me on this site, but I do come on regularly to read and enjoy your posts. I appreciate your heartfelt apology- smile

Michael
Guest
Michael

Jarod, I understand the point and truth of what you were trying to put across but one must be very careful of sending out the wrong context…I know this is a misunderstood concept of true grace but with salvation comes choice. I believe that in every person’s life there comes a crossroad when God(Holy Spirit) speaks into our sinful lost unregenerated state and reveals the message of the cross and we either respond positively or negatively. If we respond positively we will be truely converted and convicted of our sin…we will no longer like,love or be comfortable in sin. There is a strong desire to climb out of the pit whereas in the world there is no such desire. Human nature loves sin as long as it is disguised in some form of acceptable norm.

But your quote “Carolyns friend is saved to the end if he ever believed on the Lord Jesus Christ for his salvation PERIOD. I dont care if He turned into Jack the ripper! Carolyns friend never had the power to save himself right?” sends out the wrong message.

It’s true that our salvation does NOT DEPEND on any scorecard of good works…neither does it depend on repentance but repentance will always come when we get truly saved. If one understands that is our sins and iniquities that put our Saviour on the cross and how much He suffered how is it possible to tolerate any sin at all.

All sin is sin but there definitely is a HIDDEN STATE of sin that only God knows but a person that continues to harm others cannot have been truly converted and born-again.

You have posted intelligent and some revealing truths. But your comment in 91 can be misunderstood and send out the wrong message especially with younger Christians who are battling with truths today.

Carolyn
Guest
Carolyn

Hebrews 3:12 See to it, brothers and sisters, that none of you has a sinful, unbelieving heart that turns away from the living God. 13 But encourage one another daily, as long as it is called “Today,” so that none of you may be hardened by sin’s deceitfulness. 14 We have come to share in Christ, if indeed we hold our original conviction firmly to the very end. 15 As has just been said:

“Today, if you hear his voice,
do not harden your hearts
as you did in the rebellion.”[c]
16 Who were they who heard and rebelled? Were they not all those Moses led out of Egypt? 17 And with whom was he angry for forty years? Was it not with those who sinned, whose bodies perished in the wilderness?

John, I have read your article again. I’m sorry you have not convinced me that we cannot turn away from God in unbelief. Yes we are secure if we do not turn away from God, if we do not rebel, if we do not harden our hearts, if we continue to obey, if we continue to hold our conviction firmly to the end.

You say if we are saved, we will do all these things automatically. But I see that genuine faith is not automatic…it is tested, it is told to hold firmly to the end, it is told to not be deceived, it is tried in the fire, it is told to persevere, to hold faith and a good conscience, told not to give up, not to become weary in doing good, persist in doing good, persevere under trial
Galatians 6:9
Romans 2:7
James 1:12
1 Timothy 1:19

In order to believe OSAS doctrine, one must have a presupposition that there is no condition on salvation. I do not have that conviction.

I do believe that God has secured our eternal position in Christ IF our faith remains IN Christ to the end. The tests/trials are to prove our faith genuine…
1 Peter 1:7
These have come so that the proven genuineness of your faith—of greater worth than gold, which perishes even though refined by fire—may result in praise, glory and honor when Jesus Christ is revealed.

Carolyn
Guest
Carolyn

John, here’s a for instance just to clarify my position.

If tomorrow I decide that Catholicism is for me, that I really like the idea of Mariology does that:

a) prove that eternal security in Christ is false? No because eternal security is a constant…it doesn’t change. It’s always the same…it has been purchased by Christ for the sinner who believes and obeys.

b) prove that my faith is not genuine? Yes, it proves my faith is not genuine because it moved away from the hope held out in the gospel, the belief that was in Christ alone.

Redeemed
Guest
Redeemed

# 130 – Michael, a big AMEN!

Repentance is a key element of the Gospel message. It seems that some who rightly oppose Lordship Salvation have gone to an extreme. Perhaps that is why Jarrod bristled at my mention of “easy believism”?

This is an excerpt from a message by H.A. Ironside entitled “Except Ye Repent”

Shallow preaching that does not grapple with the terrible act of man’s sinfulness and guilt, calling on “all men everywhere to repent,” results in shallow conversions; and so we have a myriad of glib-tongued professing Christians today who give no evidence of regeneration whatever. Prating of salvation by grace, they manifest no grace in their lives. Loudly declaring they are justified by faith alone, they fail to remember that “faith without works is dead”; and that justification by works before men is not to be ignored as though it were in contradiction to justification by faith before God. We need to reread James chapter three and let its serious message sink deep into our hearts, that it may control our lives.

To read more…………http://www.faithbiblechurchnh.org/ironside_repentance.htg

John Chingford
Guest
John Chingford

Hi Caroline
re 131 and 132

With respect, you are coming to the scriptures in the wrong way. This is what most believers do and therefore why there are so many false theologies. Please FIRST read this article “How To Study The Bible and Why. Learning How To Avoid Deception” on [removed] and then look at your questions again from that perspective.

Basically, you cannot look at isolated verses OUT OF CONTEXT of the whole overview of God’s plan of salvation as revealed throughout the WHOLE bible and decide upon your doctrine upon a handful (even 2 handfuls) of scripture verses that “seem” to contradict the rest of the WHOLE bible which is overwhelmingly clear (in context) about eternal security.

In any case, there are far more “isolated” verses about eternal security than otherwise as shown in my eternal security article.

However, we should NEVER build up our theology on just some isolated verses but on the WHOLE Bible.

Because I have fully studied the Bible I am totally convinced that God’s plan of salvation is that those who truly believe and are born again will NEVER lose it.

Now I have said that, we should all from that contextual position be able to answer Carolyn’s questions which apparently contradict our position. In fact, it is easier to come up with answers to these than vice versa.

Carolyn.

1) You have the Holy Spirit within you. You are a truly born again believer. There is NO POSSIBLE WAY that the Holy Spirit will lead you back into the Catholic fold because HE has already revealed the truth to you. God is not a god of confusion but a God of peace. Those who go back to the Catholic church DID NOT ever have the Holy Spirit. Your statement is hypothetical irrelevance.

2) Did Jesus need to “earn” His salvation?
Sounds like a crazy non sensical question. However, I will show you that what you are asking is similarly ludicrous. Please read Hebrews 5:7-9:

“Who in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death, and was heard in that he feared;

Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;

And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;”

If you simply read those words in isolation, you would come to the conclusion that Jesus used to be imperfect, who needed to learn how to be obedient/sinless through suffering.

However, surely you agree that those verses do not mean that. Why not? You know it doesn’t mean that because of CONTEXT of the whole Bible. We know that Jesus was sinless, never failed His Father. So what does it mean? The context is about GROWTH.

Perfection needs to be tested through temptation and suffering. Jesus WAS perfect but despite this HAD to face temptations and trials to PROVE/test His perfection to show He was the conqueror of sin and therefore can become one who can identify with our weaknesses. The word perfection means to be fully tested and come through with “flying colours” and it can mean “completion”.

Why do I say these things? You state that genuine faith is tested. Yes IT IS tested. It is tested in the way that Jesus was tested. Was Jesus ever in danger of being anything other than the eternal Son of God and Redeemer? NO! But even still He was tested.

If Jesus was tested but with no possibilty of Him ever failing, so in like wise we will never lose our salvation despite our testings IF we are truly born again.

3) Who are those who harden their hearts? It is unbelievers! Those who chose NOT to believe. It is not true believers. We are those who did not harden our hearts but RECEIVED, believed in Jesus. Although it is possible for us to occasionally harden our hearts in certain things, the verse is not saying that we can go to hell because of it. Much of Hebrews is referring to “rewards”. Rewards is not the same as “salvation”. We can lose rewards but we DO NOT lose our salvation. Rewards are to do with our “works” as believers. Some will obtain greater rewards than others because of their dedication to their Saviour, but we all obtain the same salvation.

Those who yield to sin (for a season) will suffer the loss of wonderful fellowship with Jesus and all the blessings that are attached to our obedience. If we are disobedient we can suffer the corrections from our Father and miss out on fellowship. That is NOT the same as losing salvation. It is LOSING FELLOWSHIP. But fellowship is restored every time we repent. This is not the same as salvation because we are already saved if we are truly Born again.

Carolyn, it is important to understand the background to the Book of Hebrews. The writer was addressing issues that were happening amongst the Judaic believers who were being influenced by Judaizers. They were being influenced to return back to OT ways but only retain Jesus as an extra. The writer was trying to illustrate how nonsensical it was to return back to that old way of life by using rhetorical/hypothetical questions confronting the nonsense in what the Judaizers were telling them.

For example “those who have already been enlightened …..if they fall away …. to repent again ….” The falling away is not referring to losing salvation but falling from the benefits/blessings of grace. The writers arguments are that those who fall back into the law are leaving the benefits of salvation/grace and will therefore lose those benefits. It is NOT talking about losing salvation. It is hypothetical because it is impossible for them to lose even the benefits of grace because THEY are saved (certainly those readers who have already truly believed in the gospel). Impossible to repent again. Well of course it is impossible because they are already born again. How can you return back to being unborn again?

I challenge you Carolyn to look at all your conflicting verses again and see if you can use the same type of contextual arguments that I have used. Please always ask these type of questions “who is the writer writing to?” “why is he writing these things?” “how does this compare with other verses of scripture that seem to conflict?” “Why is there a conflict?” “what is the GENERAL teaching on this throughout the Bible?” How do I reconcile this with the revealed nature of God?”

You can ask other questions and ask the Lord to help you with the answers. If you do this, you will find that all those conflicting verses DO NOT contradict OSAS at all.

John Chingford
Guest
John Chingford

Sue

I am confused by your comment on comment 123

“All that thinking will frazzle your brain. wink You will get your answers soon enough.”

What thinking? The questions I gave included rhetorical questions (because the answers are obvious) and (hopefully) stimulating questions. I already know the answers to most of my questions, but am trying to stimulate readers to think and answer the questions themselves. The clues/answers are in the scriptures I quoted. The answers are important to the topic of OSAS and should convince the readers that OSAS is truth.

John Chingford
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John Chingford

Hi Redeemed 130. That link is wrong. The last letter should be “m” not “g”

http://www.faithbiblechurchnh.org/ironside_repentance.htm

Sue
Guest
Sue

Deborah: I had supposed you would have recognised the irony in the word ‘naughty’. wink It was tongue in cheek aimed at the fact JP is a child of God and therefore The Father will take him ‘to the woodshed’. Imho I think JP has reached a point whereby Father has handed him over to his stubborn rebellion; so many sound men of God have spent time and effort to bring him to repentance. His poorly written tome on the Antichrist; had a good ‘tongue lashing’ from me when it first emerged. He obviously doesn’t understand what ‘imminent’ means, spelling it repeatedly it as ‘eminent ’. The results will be seen at the Bema Seat. How many of us will ‘shrink back’ from Jesus at the JS of Christ? :-/

Maranatha!

Sue
Guest
Sue

John: Perseverance of the saints, this is The ‘P’ in tulip that is also defunct teaching. Perseverance of the saints is not required to keep us saved/justified , we are kept by the power of God, therefore the ‘Perseverance’ into eternity, is God’s, not the saints. ( It isn’t up to us to keep ourselves saved, we are in the double fisted grip of the Father and the Son – sealed in by The Holy Spirit.)

Repentance, ‘metaneo’ meaning a change of mind, is not given as a condition for Salvation. The ONLY condition given for justification is the word Pisteuo – faith/believe = knowledge/assent/assurance/trust is all in the definition of the word Pistis. It causes confusion to insist ‘repent’ a change of mind, is also required for justification. It confuses two issues without need.

The word ‘metaneo’of ‘repent and believe’ – was directed to the Jews only, NOT the Gentiles. The Jewish Religious leaders had taught the Jews to expect a Davidic Messianic Warrior who would overthrow the Romans and set Israel free. This is what they were called to ‘repent’ from, false information on the Messiah. First they needed to change their minds to see Jesus as the true ‘suffering servant’ Messiah, and Jesus did indeed fit the bill. Some religious leaders actually knew Jesus was their Messiah, but that knowledge did not result in their redemption.

It was essential for them to take this knowledge and ‘pisteuo’ believe/faith/assent/trust to give them the assurance that Jesus was their Messiah. The Gentile jailor asked what he must do to be saved – the reply was to only BELIEVE. As a Gentile, he had no effective knowledge of the prophecies concerning the Jewish Messiah that he needed to change his mind about. He knew he was a sinner from Paul and Silas, he knew Jesus was the answer to freedom from sin and all he had to do was faith in Jesus Christ based on his new knowledge of the cross – when he faithed in Christ, this was accompanied by TRUST given within the definition of pistis. That’s the beginning of justification and will continue through sanctification. It will remain a persistent battle until glorification – e.g. ‘where – is your faith’ on Jesus, or on the wind and waves.

Faith alone, by Christ alone. Is that enough? Yes when we consider what ‘Christ’ means. It is one word that covers in its definition, the suffering, death, burial, resurrection and
ascension of the 100% God in the 100% Man Jesus of Nazareth! Not just ‘any old bloke called ‘Jesus’.

Respectfully John, take or leave my opinion, but instead of trying to patch up and darn your article on Repentance, I think it needs to be withdrawn and rewritten removing every vestige of Lordship Salvation that certainly clings to it! If you can’t see that, then at least seek The Lord for His clarity. smile

Sue
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Sue

@ Carolyn:
My comment to John was based on my agreement with yours. I do not accept OSAS. Simply put, Calvinism’s stance is if God has selected you to be saved, there’s not a darn thing we can do about it, that is not free will. Eternal Security is nearer the mark, although even that is being messed about with. John unwittingly denies 1John1:8-10. There is nothing automatic about our being changed, that is mysticism, it is in cooperation with the Holy Spirit that we are changed, line upon line, precept upon precept.

Some will stagnate and refuse to grow and all post salvation sin bears consequences and that will be sorted in present life with discipline, and at the Bema to suffer LOSS… saved through fire.

1John1:5-10
8. If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
9. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us [our] sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

Deborah: Free Grace does not encourage licentiousness; some who are Hyper DO and teach a crossless gospel. There are consequences to pay now and at the Bema. I consider we are constrained from sin by our love of God. If we love him, we will obey his commands/ imperatives. If we don’t, then we don’t love Him and we walk in the old sin nature we are to repent, and be CLEANSED 1John 1:9. E.G Jesus washed the feet of the disciples, Peter refused, this is what 1John1:9 is all about. We are all WASHED (by Christ’s Blood)but contact with the world gives us dirty ‘hands and feet’, so we come to the Lord for cleansing as did the High Priest in the Temple. ONCE a year he was totally WASHED, but before he ministered day by day in the Temple before God, he had to go to the laver and be cleansed from touching dead bodies. Essentially 1John1:9 is the ‘laver’ in our Holy Spirit walk.

Sorry if this is garbled, I’m a bit rushed. God bless.

Jarrod Kruger
Guest
Jarrod Kruger

I made my point I believe.

Sue and Faith get it.

These two Focus on the Creator rather then the CONDITION.

Here are the two answers I get from my surveys.And Faith and Sue focused on the creator and their POSITION,and everybody else focused on the CONDITION of the creature.

Here is one of the questions I use:

What would you say if I told you that I found a teacher that taught Grace? About 13% say,”That is wonderful,it is really tough to find a church like that nowadays!”(POSITION) And about 87% say,” well I would be careful, because we do have sin.”(CONDITION)

I KNOW that if we Christians start putting as much emphasis on Grace as we do on sin we would see the sin problem in christians diminish.

Those 40 or more grace gifts we receive at salvation is our POSITION in Christ. And that is the ONLY way to properly deal with our sin. How many do you know and apply in your life? or are you still living in your condition and fighting your sin?

If your focus is Sin and you know very little about your position in Christ, good luck.

Redeemed,

Hello your making my point for me. You seem to have a great handle on sin and our condition and everybody else here! now that you have a good handle on that nature, what about your position in Christ. I am not talking about sin here myself, because it seems that everybody here has been taught extremely well about Sin, so why beat a dead horse?

I do not take Grace to the extreme, I just see that most here take sin to the extreme.Jesus took care of our sin problem for us. and His Grace is the only means by which we can “fight ” sin.

With people that believe in Lord ship salvation Grace will always look extreme to those people.

Jarrod Kruger
Guest
Jarrod Kruger

Debs,

You asked,”I get the feeling from your comments that you go to the very other extreem and take God’s Grace for as a license to live a life of sin? Does not matter what you do as long as you ‘focus on Jesus’ you are saved. Is this what you are implying?

I ask you then this question. Are you truly saved? Because one who is truly regenerate and has tasted His Grace would know that that is not the inclination of a truly born again person. Grace always sounds extreme to a person who has never tasted that Grace or grace Always sounds extreme to a Christian who has fallen from Grace(put themselves back under the law)

When it comes to salvation:
The difference between you and I is very,very,simple! you believe that you have to focus on Jesus and keep your focus on Him. And I am telling you that it does not depend on the creature. at the moment of belief, JESUS keeps HIS focus on YOU, no matter if you lose focus or not. Our salvation depends on HIM not us. He NEVER changes.We follow the wind most of the time.

You are telling me that you believe in perseverance of the saints as calvinists do and you dont recognize it. I am telling you that you are PRESERVED by the Lord Jesus because of who He is, not because of who you are.

Carolyn
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Carolyn

Sue #124 – huh? if you could point out the comment I made to lead you to this comment, it would be helpful. I may have slipped up, but heaven is my destination. I’m not a Kingdom Dominionist. Nooooooooo not by a long shot. I’m looking up for the appearance and soon return of my Saviour, Jesus Christ!
Maranatha!

Paul (Continue in His Word)
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Paul (Continue in His Word)

@Carolyn,

If after reading what Sue and JK wrote here you still not have assurance of eternal security, then I don’t know how you will get it.
In this conversation, Sue and JK opened my eyes to the greatest truth about Salvation.

The key is this quote from Sue:

“Faith comes by Knowledge of the Cross with the Acceptance of the free gift and the Assurance it will be as we have been told by Trusting God to keep His word and saved by the substitutionary sacrifice of Christ Jesus.”

“The second we believe, we are Justified as Jesus takes on our unrighteousness and credits to our account HIS righteousness. Legally, by heaven’s court, our dept is paid IN FULL by Christ and we are declared to be ‘not guilty’ as the Holy Spirit immediately INDWELLS the new believer in our brand new human spirit and we are given the ‘new nature’ in Christ. At that very moment, the Holy Spirit also plunges us INTO the Body of Christ, His Bride, the Church and there we are kept for eternity by the power of God.”

If the indwelling of the Holy Spirit (God’s work) does not take place then the person is not born again and nothing of all this holds together. Put the indwelling Holy spirit, and all fits into place. All that Debs and Redeemed said. They all fall into place.
See the next quotes from JK:

“…if we find a verse that seems to contradict John 5:24 then we are reading that verse wrong!”
This is so true. As born again Christians, we have to read all Scripture with our Justification as axiom/fundamental hypothesis. When we read Scripture in the context of our ongoing Sanctification and future Glorification and ask the Holy Spirit to rightly divide it for us, He will, and there will be no contradiction.

“And if your first thought is, ‘So you are teaching people that they can just go out and live like hell?’ I would question you if you truly know Grace. Because someone who has tasted Grace from Christ would know that that is not the first inclination of a truly born again Christian.”

I say AMEN!

TruthfulConversation
Guest
TruthfulConversation

Hmm, yes, Sue I would never describe someone like Jacob Prasch as naughty! That comment from you simply denigrates Debs and John, it is not right. You are minimising the effect of the terrible things JP said in his emails and comments. JP is a false teacher with a terrible temper, he can never be described as a naughty child.. uh uh, sorry.

Paul (Continue in His Word)
Guest
Paul (Continue in His Word)

Jarrod Kruger also uncovered this great truth:
“Repent means to turn from your Unbelief.”
[He will reprove the world] Of SIN, because they BELIEVE not on me;
John 16:9
And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: REPENT ye, and BELIEVE the gospel.
Mark 1:15

When you understand repentance like that, you see how Lordship Salvation is such a snare. As I read the Word now, everything seems to make perfect sense.
Repentance does not mean the same thing for the lost and the saved. For the lost is means turning from his unbelief to belief/faith in Christ and in Him who sent Him.
For the saved, repentance is not unto salvation, but unto fellowship (1 John 1:6-9)/growth/walk in the Spirit (Gal 5:16) /joy “Restore unto me the joy of thy salvation” Psalm 51:12 (read the whole Psalm)

Paul (Continue in His Word)
Guest
Paul (Continue in His Word)

@Jarrod Kruger wrote:
“finally, it is possible for the believer to “fall from grace” (Gal 5:1-4), which, however, is never
accomplished by sinning; for the Christian falls from grace only when he turns from his true liberty under grace to the bondage of the law”

That is a very tough one.
Do you mean that even though we contributed nothing for our salvation (entirely God’s work) we can loose it? We can be saved and then get unsaved by turning from our true liberty under grace to the bondage of the law?
And what if such persons were never regenerated in the firsts place? What if they never actually received the free gift of the indwelling Holy spirit in the first place?
We know that Judaizers (false teachers) were trying to bring back the Galatian churches into Judaism, and much of Paul’s epistle to them is dedicated to addressing those issues. In the above mentioned passage, those Judaizers are going back to circumcision.

this last statement of yours seems to contradict the doctrine of the eternal security of the believer.
God knows the end from the beginning. I do not believe one instant that God would regenerate a person, seal that person with His Holy Spirit, only to undo what He did later on. He foreknew who would believe/be saved and who would not.

Redeemed
Guest
Redeemed

Re: # 68 by Paul Good point!