Hi Arella :hi:

Let’s look at the verses…

Psalms 51:5-7 KJV 5 Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me. 6 Behold, thou desirest truth in the inward parts: and in the hidden part thou shalt make me to know wisdom. 7 Purge me with hyssop, and I shall be clean: wash me, and I shall be whiter than snow.

Psalm 51:5-7 New International Version (NIV)
5 Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me.
6 Yet you desired faithfulness even in the womb; you taught me wisdom in that secret place.
7 Cleanse me with hyssop, and I will be clean; wash me, and I will be whiter than snow.

Wow…

Just because David’s mother was in sin when she conceived David does not imply in any way that David was born a sinner. This would mean that generational sin actually exists, and everything anybody in your family (mother or father) ever did wrong, you did wrong too from birth. How horrid! There is an age of accountability for all children, that age is different for every child. How on earth can a 3 month old little baby repent of it’s sin (passed on from mother and/or father) when it can’t comprehend or even even understand. This sounds so Roman Catholic and it’s diabolically sick and evil.

This is definitely a Calvinist / Roman Catholic teaching. Original sin does exist – it’s the definition of it that needs to be defined correctly 🙂

I agree with Berean Call’s article.

The original sin = the fall of mankind, death and destruction befall mankind. God wants a relationship with everyone, no one is born sinful, you become sinful through choice.

Hosea 6:4-7 Amplified Bible (AMP)

4 O Ephraim, what shall I do with you?
O Judah, what shall I do with you?
For your [wavering] loyalty and kindness are [transient] like the morning cloud
And like the dew that goes away early.
5 Therefore, I have hewn them in pieces by [the words of] the prophets;
I have slain them by the words of My mouth;
My judgments [pronounced upon them by the prophets] are like the light that shines forth [obvious to all].
6 For I desire and delight in [steadfast] loyalty [faithfulness in the covenant relationship], rather than sacrifice,
And in the knowledge of God more than burnt offerings.
7 But they, like Adam, have transgressed the covenant;
There they have dealt treacherously against Me.

There had been an agreement (covenant) between God and Adam that he would not eat from that one specific tree, similar to a marital contract of faithfulness, and Adam violated it by eating from the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil. God gave Adam free choice whether to remain faithful to God or not. Adam had no choice regarding his creation just like we are not given a choice, but God gave him (and us) the opportunity to choose concerning his/our friendship with God. Adam’s choice was centered on one command – to not to eat from that one specific tree. Adam broke that covenant (agreement).

We now have inherited Adam’s disposition (his rebellious nature), and we live in a world which bares the consequences of that rebellion. The world went from a place of joy, peace and happiness where there was no death; to death, sickness and destruction.
In the verse above, the Israelites continue what Adam had done (at the original sin). They were rebellious, just as we all are.

I am studying right now about original sin, and this somehow links to the topic you developed in this article. I have concerns about the original sin doctrine, because it is a catholic doctrine that promotes infant baptism. The NIV has changed some Bible passages to make them meet with this doctrine as well ( see psalm 51:5, in the KJV the implication is that David´s mother was in sin when she conceived him, and in the NIV it was changed to say David was born a sinner).

I also disagree with the calvinistic idea of total depravity because if humans were not able to do good or follow God´s instructions, why would he bother to give his law to us and why would he punish disobedience? I found two articles I would like to share, and after reading them, could you give me your point of view on the original sin and total depravity issue?

Here are the articles:
https://www.gospeltruth.net/menbornsinners/mbs07.htm

https://www.thebereancall.org/content/are-we-all-guilty-original-sin

I look forward to your comments! I am very interested in understanding this topic correctly.

Andy wrote:

I am neither calivinist nor arminian. I’m a John 3:16 guy, a Bible guy and I’m guaranteed going to heaven based on Jesus Christ alone 🙂

Calvinism is false, so they have to come up with labels for everyone else, since they forced a label on themselves.

Alameen

>> Come to Islam.

No thanks 🙂 Come to Jesus Christ. We have found huge issues with Islam and the Koran that we have documented here: Please read: South African Islamic Propagation Centre International says Christian God has Faecal Fetish and Slavery in the Bible? – Accusations made by Atheists and Muslim Scholars

>> we were born sinless,

1 John 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

1 John 1:10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

Why do you go to Mosque and pray so often if you are sinless? If you are sinless that means you are by rights a ‘god’?

>> there is no god but God, he is one, indivisible, pure and perfect, he does not beget, not is he begotten

There is only One Living God, He is One, omniscicent, omnipresent, Holy and Just, God manifests Himself to mankind as God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit. He sent His Son to die on the cross for your sin, that you can believe in Jesus Christ and be saved.

Since the you are Muslim and believe in Unitarianism, it obviously doesn’t make sense to you for God have the power to split himself up, but He is not splitting Himself up. Understand…God is a Trinity, a Trinitarian Being (i.e. one eternal God existing in 3 distinct, yet inseparable Persons) then it makes perfect sense, and God is fully capable of existing in this state because HE IS GOD.

John 10:30 Jesus said; “I and my Father are one.”

John 14:7-10
Jesus said;
John 14:7 If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.
John 14:8 Philip saith unto him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us.
John 14:9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?
John 14:10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.

Satan on the other hand is indivisible, acts pure but he is not, acts perfect but he is not, he does not beget nor will he ever be begotten.

rey

I understand, thanks!

No not true is right, because if you read Pelagius’ commentary on Romans 5, that’s not what he says.

From his comments on Romans 5:15 “Besides, if the soul does not exist by transmission, but the flesh alone, then only the flesh carries the transmission of sin and it alone deserves punishment.” (Pelagius’s Commentary on St Paul’s Epistle To The Romans, by Theodore de Bruyn [translator], Clarendon Press, Oxford, 2002, pg. 94)

Here he is referring to Augustine’s doctrine that a part of the soul of the parents is transmitted to the offspring just as the flesh is, and is saying if that is not true (as obviously it isn’t) then the punishment of Adam’s sin can only be transmitted to our flesh not to our souls: in other words, Adam’s sin cannot damn us to hell but only to morality. So Pelagius does not say that Adam’s sin only affected Adam. He says it affects all of us, but only in that it makes us all mortal not that it damns us to hell.

Ben

>> Sadly, I think that is shows a bit of laziness when some base their spiritual lives mainly on the doctrines of man and defend them so vigorously

Actually not laziness, but sin. People want to continue in their sin, this is why they carry on defending doctrines of demons so vigorously. For instance, you see the doctrine of Calvinism believe it or not allows you to be ‘who you are’ that is the Elect and if you are Elect, chosen before birth, you technically do not have to repent of your sin (even though they do preach about repentance). Calvinism has two ideas that they use to combat the area of ‘sin’ in their prideful lives and it’s called Lordship Salvation or they just call you a legalist for ever mentioning sin in the first place lol.