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Author: Deborah (Discerning the World)

The General Conversation Section – If You Don’t Know Where to Say it, Say it Here!

This is the General Conversation Section.

If You Don’t Know Where to Say it, Say it Here!

Under this section you can discuss anything you want.

It can be a Q & A section or a ‘Have you heard’ section…

But please do try and stick to commenting under the relevant Article before commenting here.



667 comments to The General Conversation Section – If You Don’t Know Where to Say it, Say it Here!

  • harry

    The concept of God must be defined. Many talks about god but they talk of a very different god. Therefore it is important that we know Him by name. The name of God Most High the one and only.
    Associating God with the Olumpics is bad news.
    The olympics is dedicated to Zeus and he is not Almighty God.
    What is the real name of the Living Almighty Most High God?

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)


    >> The concept of God must be defined…… therefore it is important that we know Him by name. The name of God Most High the one and only…….What is the real name of the Living Almighty Most High God?

    Nope harry, that’s not the point, Satan will counterfeit everything that God does, he even uses the name of Jesus for his own purposes. You need to be GENUINELY SAVED and receive the Holy Spirit in order to know the REAL GOD OF THE BIBLE. Please read this article which explains how the Biblcal Holy Spirit works compared to the Unholy Spirit Fire.

  • harry

    what I meant here was that all religions talks about “god” but this god is not the same as the Almighty God. We had the case where a Hindu prayed and I knew that he was not praying to the same God who created the heavens. The propblem is others do not know this even if they are Godfearing Christians. Many people are still being deceived becuase of a lack of knowledge. This is one of them. Satan uses the word “god” for all and not the true and holy Name of Him El Elyon.By using “god” he can unite them all under one word or deity. that is why we must educate and pray and teach truth vs satan.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)


    Are you caught up in what is called the ‘Hebrew Roots movement’? The premise of the Hebrew Roots movement is the belief that the Church has veered far from the true teachings and Hebrew concepts of the Bible. The movement maintains that Christianity has been indoctrinated with the culture and beliefs of Greek and Roman philosophy and that ultimately biblical Christianity, taught in churches today, has been corrupted with a pagan imitation of the New Testament gospels. Hebrew Rooters have the assumption that the Church has lost its Jewish roots and is unaware that Jesus and His disciples were Jews living in obedience to the Torah.

    >> Yet the Ten Commandments and other laws are still standing.
    They are all repeated in the new Testament by the Apostles.

    What other laws??? Hebrew Rooters involved advocate the need for every believer to walk a Torah-observant life. This means that the ordinances of the Mosaic Covenant must be a central focus in the lifestyle of believers today as it was with the Old Testament Jews of Israel. Keeping the Torah includes keeping the Sabbath on the seventh day of the week (Saturday), celebrating the Jewish feasts and festivals, keeping the dietary laws and learning to understand the Scriptures from a Hebrew mindset. They teach that Gentile Christians have been grafted into Israel, and this is one reason every born-again believer in Jesus the Messiah is to participate in these observances.

    Hebrew Rooters also seem to think that every name in the bible is now not good enough to say in English and must be said in Hebrew…So the name of Jesus is not good enough, it must be Yeshua for instance…hmmm.

    Harry, do you keep the sabbath?

  • The Hebrew Roots movement fall into the track of legalism, a separate area part from the Hebrew Roots Movement is the Sacred name movement or the ebyonites who believe that the name of Jesus is a curruption from the word Zues so when you pray you should pray Yehosua.

    This is rubbish and nothing more then superstitious I had one guy tell me when if you pray to Jesus your praying to Satan.

    Any way I found a good site on this

    The sacred name movement is a religious movement which began in the late 1920s and early 1930s. It grew out of division within the Church of God, Seventh Day.
    The primary and therefore the namesake concern of this movement is both the written and the oral use of the name Yahweh, or one of the other many English forms of the Hebrew name of God. From this emphasis derives the name, Sacred Name Movement.
    While the most popular English form of the Name comes to us as Yahweh (Yahshua for Jesus), in Hebrew Bibles it is hwhy and in early Hebrew manuscripts and engravings, hwhy. By most scholars, it is represented in English as YHWH. By some YHVH.
    For many sacred name people, a secondary concern is the disparagement, in varying degrees, of the name of Jesus. This disparagement extends to Chr_stians and Chr_stianity (sic) for refusing to use the Hebrew only sacred names and for being full of pagan practices.

    ERROR # 1

    Many sacred name teachers believe and very vocally teach that unless one uses the Hebrew name and only the Hebrew name for God, he or she will be eternally damned. It should be noted that not all sacred name teachers are so dogmatic.
    While this exclusive view is taken by most SN teachers, they themselves do not know the original Hebrew pronunciation of God’s name. They admit as much by the variety of names used within the movement and by individuals repeatedly changing the name they hold sacred.
    By some sacred name people, our Creator is called Yah Veh, Yahh, Yahweh, Iahueh, Yahwah, and Yaohu. By others he is spoken of as Yahuwah, Yahuah, and more than a score of even less likely names.
    Jesus is called Yahshua by most sacred name folks. But, more and more are beginning to use Yahushua. By some he is called Yasha, by some Yeshua, by some Yaohushua, by some Y’shua, by some Iahushua, by others Yehoshua, YAHVAHSHUA, and even Yhwhhoshua.
    Confusion! Error!

    ERROR # 1

    Many sacred name teachers believe and very vocally teach that unless one uses the Hebrew name and only the Hebrew name for God, he or she will be eternally damned. It should be noted that not all sacred name teachers are so dogmatic.
    While this exclusive view is taken by most SN teachers, they themselves do not know the original Hebrew pronunciation of God’s name. They admit as much by the variety of names used within the movement and by individuals repeatedly changing the name they hold sacred.
    By some sacred name people, our Creator is called Yah Veh, Yahh, Yahweh, Iahueh, Yahwah, and Yaohu. By others he is spoken of as Yahuwah, Yahuah, and more than a score of even less likely names.
    Jesus is called Yahshua by most sacred name folks. But, more and more are beginning to use Yahushua. By some he is called Yasha, by some Yeshua, by some Yaohushua, by some Y’shua, by some Iahushua, by others Yehoshua, YAHVAHSHUA, and even Yhwhhoshua.
    Confusion! Error!


    One of the keystone doctrines of the sacred name movement is that our Savior preached and taught the name Yahweh to the Jewish people of his time. One or another sacred name group may say Jesus taught one or another of the numerous possible English transliterations of hwhy. Numbers of sacred name people believe the primary mission of Jesus was bringing the name Yahweh to the world.
    It is supposed that the Messiah spoke this name often to the Jewish people, taught the importance and pronunciation of this name to his followers, said it and read it when he referred to the Old Testament, and used this name when he addressed God. Sacred name teachers boldly assert that Jesus was arrested, tried, and killed because he said the name Yahweh.
    Are these claims true? Did Jesus ever once utter the name Yahweh? Sacred name teachers gamely admit that according to what is written in the Holy Scriptures he did not. However, they believe the Scriptures are wrong.
    Welcome to the sacred name movement.

    ERROR # 5

    A long held and regularly used false teaching among more than half of sacred name movement assemblies and individuals is that the Greek word for Jesus means son of Zeus or has a meaning otherwise connected with or derived from the word Zeus. There are a number of variations on this fanciful teaching, a favorite being that Jesus means Healing Zeus.
    It is especially sad to see sacred name converts, who have no idea of the source of their information, promoting this error.
    In spite of the fact that the teaching cannot be backed by research, many in the movement believe it simply has to be true.
    The teaching is purely and simply a lie, a fabrication. This falsehood began in the teachings of some of the pioneer preachers of the movement. It continues among preachers and teachers who are movers and shakers in the movement today.
    This doctrine and its continued propagation epitomize other false teachings of the sacred name movement. Even after it has time and again been proven false, many still cling to it.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Thanks Miguel!

  • harry

    I have my own view on my faith and I do what is expected from me acording to the Word of God. I do not agree with most people and not with the hebrew roots. How sure are you that you are on the right track. After all that I have read here aperson is completely lost if they listen to anyone who does not agree with you.
    I believe God and the Word of God. The whole of the Bible is his laws and commandments and my news for the future. I read and follow that and will lsiten to someone and test it with the word and reject if the word does not agree with it.
    I have no holier than thou image and will not judge anyone on what they preach. I will just reject it and ignore it in the future. The Holy spirit is my teacher and not the views of man.

  • harry

    What is wrong with keeping the Sabbath and what is wrong in keeping Pesach and Sukkot or even any one of the feasts of God. Be carefull what people say is cancelled that is NOT in the Word of God. Paul said that Jew and gentile is one in Messiah. The word of God is clear, if they want to cancel things then so be it. Just do not judge me if I can’t find the cancellation in the Word of God. Each to his own interpretation as well. You interpret it like this they interpret it like that.
    I do agree that there are certain views / interpretations that is far gone and those I will reject because there is written proof that they are wrong.
    I keep the feasts of God not the Jewish feast and I keep Sabbath as it also existed before the Ten Commandments. I do not keep christmas and Easter that is evil days that was taken into the church.pagan worshippers.
    I believe that Jesus Chirst is the son of the Living God and that He died for my sins and for the salvation of the world. I believe that i must be born again and that I must be baptized in water. And so I do.
    If its not in the Bible its not good.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)


    >> not with the hebrew roots

    You lie, you do..

    Have you ever read Galations? Do yourself a favour…

  • harry

    You have no right to call me a liar.
    I have notning to do with them and have not been in contact with them.
    I do not know what they teach or preach.
    You do not know me.
    Do yourself a favour and stop judging!!!!!!!!!!!!!

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)


    Please pay attention, ‘Hebrew Roots’ is not an organisation but a DOCTRINE. What you do, as a GENTILE following JEWISH LAW is termed as Hebrew Root theology.

    Now, I am not judging you Haryy, get a grip of yourself, I am pointing out the facts here. Did you go and read Galations? I bet you didn’t. Let me help you out and point out that just because it’s IN THE BIBLE Harry, as you stated, does not mean you as a Christian now have to DO IT.

    Galatians 3:1-14

    Justification by Faith

    3 O foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you that you should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ was clearly portrayed among you as crucified? 2 This only I want to learn from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? 3 Are you so foolish? Having begun in the Spirit, are you now being made perfect by the flesh? 4 Have you suffered so many things in vainif indeed it was in vain?

    5 Therefore He who supplies the Spirit to you and works miracles among you, does He do it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? 6 just as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness. 7 Therefore know that only those who are of faith are sons of Abraham. 8 And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel to Abraham beforehand, saying, In you all the nations shall be blessed. 9 So then those who are of faith are blessed with believing Abraham.

    The Law Brings a Curse

    10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse; for it is written, Cursed is everyone who does not continue in all things which are written in the book of the law, to do them. 11 But that no one is justified by the law in the sight of God is evident, for the just shall live by faith. 12 Yet the law is not of faith, but the man who does them shall live by them.

    13 Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law, having become a curse for us (for it is written, Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree, 14 that the blessing of Abraham might come upon the Gentiles in Christ Jesus, that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

    Now Harry, so you see that as a Gentile you are to BELIEVE BY FAITH? and that you are CURSED if you follow the LAW. Jesus died to FULLFILL the LAW Harry, and you are making a mockery of Him, buy not believing in FAITH but instead following the LAW which JESUS came to fullfill.

    The 10 Commandments are written into our minds and our hearts:

    Hebrews 8:10

    10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put My laws in their mind and write them on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.

    2 Corinthians 3:6

    6 who also made us sufficient as ministers of the new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.

    The 10 commandments are written into our hearts Harry when we become children of God… but what about the SABBATH? Well this is very simple to answer Harry in light of what Galations 3 says.

    THIS is the Gospel Truth of the matter:

    1) Jesus Christ kept the Sabbath because HE WAS THE LAW (Jesus Christ kept the Sabbath because HE, was the Law of the Sabbath.)
    2) Jesus Christ taught the Sabbath by having kept the Sabbath because he was still on earth and Lord of the Sabbath Day on earth.
    3) When Jesus was crucified many miraculous things took place, one of these being that Jesus Christ fulfilled the Law and it was written in our hearts (all 10 commandments)
    4) Jesus became our Sabbath REST in all born again Christians we do not need to WORK anymore to keep this commandment because the HOLY SPIRIT now abides in each and every born again believer.

    Hence all truly born again believers keep all 10 commandants.

    If you keep the Sabbath Harry, you are dishonoring Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit that abides in you because Jesus is your REST. By keeping any LAW you are in effect saying that you are not interested in the fact that Jesus came to die for you. You prefer the OLD COVENANT, and not the NEW COVENANT that Jesus Christ has given you.

    The bible has some HARSH WORDS for people like yourself Harry, for trying to be a Jew when you are not (READ GALATIONS AGAIN Harry)

    Revelation 2:9

    9 I know your works, tribulation, and poverty (but you are rich); and I know the blasphemy of those who say they are Jews and are not, but are a synagogue of Satan.

    Now Harry, the problem here is a big one, because you either have the Holy Spirit ABIDING in you and HE will chastise you, warn you, that what you are doing is wrong and you need to stop and BELIEVE JESUS THROUGH FAITH AND FAITH ALONE. Or you carry on in your ways and follow false doctrine.

    I have given you enough biblical proof, to prove that you are on the wrong track and I SINCERELY PRAY that you listen to the Holy Spirit’s voice on this matter and change your ways, instead of being cursed.

  • Deborah,thanks for revealing these things.We seemingly caught up in things that are designed in such a way that we fit ourselves in,thinking that we know whats happening but only to find that there is hidden agenda to what we have involved our selves in and that we don’t know and don’t want to be a part of it.Sport has chosen as one of the things that unites people.In a South African soccer world cup there was lots of occult signs than u can count,even the death of Mr Mandela’s grand daughter it is said that it was a sacrifice by Mandela to the god of darkness which is satan.So sport is one way of uniting people in error.Thanks again Deborah.

  • harry

    Who said that I am a gentile?
    You do not know me.
    I am blessed not cursed and I am closer to God than ever before.
    I am blessed every day and the Spirit of God abides in me.
    even if the law is written in your heart it is still there.
    Even Jesus is Lord of the Sabbath and therefore I honor him by keeping to his sabbath.
    The Holy Spirit protects and keeps me.

    He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. (I John 2:4)

    He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.John 14:21
    Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.Rev22:14

    For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus…. And if ye be Christs, then are ye Abrahams seed, and heirs according to the promise. (Gal. 3:26,29).

    Rev. 14:12 “Here is the patience of the saints; here are those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus.”
    I rest my case
    I am blessed and saved.
    Will not argue with you on this any longer,

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)


    Even if you were Jewish Harry, when you get saved you are to MOVE AWAY FROM THE LAW because you now fall under the NEW COVENANT and you are JUSTIFIED BY FAITH – covered by the Blood of Jesus Christ.

    Galations says if you practice one law you need to practice the whole lot, so when are you going to start sacrificing Harry?

    You quote the following scriptures

    He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. (I John 2:4)

    He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.John 14:21
    Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.Rev22:14

    Rev. 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints; here are those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus.

    The word commandments here Harry is NOT THE LAW, it’s everything that is contained in the WORD OF GOD, but read in CONTEXT of all scriptures together, not hand picked verses here and there to suit yourself.

    You quote this scripture…

    For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. And if ye be Christs, then are ye Abrahams seed, and heirs according to the promise. (Gal. 3:26,29).

    When you become a Child of God, you become Abrahams’s seed (this is spiritual) NOT PHYSICAL. You do NOT now become a Jew. You are still a Gentile. There is a terrible theology called REPLACEMENT THEOLOGY that states that every born again Gentile replaces 1 Jew. And that the church today have the right to Jerusalem because the church is Israel. This is utter garbage to say the least.

  • Lis Jensen

    I don’t understand, that so many Christians are following the Catholic trend now. Not the belief, but the trend, like Icons, Lectio Devina etc. Do yuo have something about that?

    Lis Jensen,

  • Paul

    Hi Liz.
    It is not so surprising considering the Ecumenical movement and TV Evangelists. Also, when the protestant churches were formed, they still clung and still cling to many R.C. beliefs and trends.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Hi Lis

    This is the trend, becuause all religions (including Pentecostals and Charismatics) will lead back to Rome in the Last days (and we are in those Last Days). Read this article about the Vaticans Evangelization plan to convert Pentecostals and Charismatics to Chatholics without them even knowing it. The New Evangelical Evil fit for a New Dark Age And then you have the Emergent movement who sneaky sneaky brought in things to the church such as Prayer Stations, Lectio Devina, Labyrinths, and much more to snare the Christian into the practice of mystic practices. Then you also have this unholy FIRE that they call down from heaven in pretty much all Pentecostal and Charismatic churches that is being transferred to people at churches and included in this FIRE you hear a lot lately about people speaking about the ‘heart of God’ – well this is all Catholic and this unholy spirit that is falling on people is going to lead people right back to Rome when Rome finally takes it’s stand with iron teeth and forces itself on the world at being the only world Religion. See this article for all the details: The Biblical Holy Spirit vs.The False Unholy Spirit of Fire

  • Vincent

    I have just finished reading an article on The Berean Call, they are addressing the very same issue=P
    I see a trend of a separation of believers becoming more steadfast and the uncertain falling by the wayside into the lost catagory.
    Sola Scripture

  • michael

    Topics are often been innundated with irrevelavent data…or so it seems but most of my comments have been aimed at the main core of all spiritual problems. One of them of them has been sadly neglected but it is indeed one of the most important and that is the question of divorce. Such an important subject that the church has got it it all wrong despite the fact that the Saviour Himself gave very clear instructions and so did Apostle Paul. This is a subject that is paramount to all believers and sadly been neglected with the result of far reaching spiritual problems. A topic that should in this context be addressed very sternly and aggresively.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)


    You are absolutely right, maybe I will do an article on that one soon :)

  • Poully


  • Paul (Continue in His Word)

    Hello Debs,

    I listened to a preacher the other day preach that Hell (the litteral hell the Bible speaks about) is in the Core of planet earth (inner/outer core). He went on to say that the lava and gas that come out of volcanic eruptions are actually hell fire from the core of earth.
    Of course he gave full proof with Bible verses and such. I left very puzzled as I am not fully convinced. I will re-listen to the sermon and I will post his Bible references here. I need to study the subject by myself and let the HS guide me into the truth about IS THE PHYSICAL LOCATION OF HELL REVEALED IN SCRIPTURE AND IF YES, WHERE IS IT SITUATED ?


  • Deborah (Discerning the World)


    That is a good question. Is the physical location of hell revealed in scripture… I have no idea, it’s not something I have looked into.

    Please post that guys bible references, because it would be interesting to see.

  • Marion

    I want to know…who’s the guy? That will tell a lot!

  • Paul (Continue in His Word)

    Sequel of my above comment about Volcanoes and Hell :

    I want to say that this preacher is a beloved brother. Yet this does not mean that he cannot be in error, in which case we need to approach him with love and point his error (if it is the case) so that he will correct it and not spread it. Until a person is found to be a wolf in sheep’s clothing (ie a false brother), I believe we should not expose his errors and name him in public without having contacted him and given him the opportunity to explain and/or correct himself.

    Here are the 8 KJV references this preacher used to prove his doctrine of Hell being in the core of planet earth:

    #1 Isaiah 14:9-15
    (9) Hell from beneath is moved for thee to meet thee at thy coming: it stirreth up the dead for thee, even all the chief ones of the earth; it hath raised up from their thrones all the kings of the nations.
    (10) All they shall speak and say unto thee, Art thou also become weak as we? art thou become like unto us?
    (11) Thy pomp is brought down to the grave, and the noise of thy viols: the worm is spread under thee, and the worms cover thee.
    (12) How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!
    (13) For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:
    (14) I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.
    (15) Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.

    #2 Pro 15:24 The way of life is above to the wise, that he may depart from hell beneath.

    #3 Deu 32:22 For a fire is kindled in mine anger, and shall burn unto the lowest hell, and shall consume the earth with her increase, and set on fire the foundations of the mountains.
    (Note: “Set on fire the foundations of the mountains” is interpreted as volcanic eruptions)

    #4 Isaiah 5:14-15
    (14) Therefore hell hath enlarged herself, and opened her mouth without measure: and their glory, and their multitude, and their pomp, and he that rejoiceth, shall descend into it.
    (15) And the mean man shall be brought down, and the mighty man shall be humbled, and the eyes of the lofty shall be humbled:

    (Note: Hell is ever enlarging itself to contain the multitudes who die without Christ)

    #5 Ezekiel 31:14-18
    (14) To the end that none of all the trees by the waters exalt themselves for their height, neither shoot up their top among the thick boughs, neither their trees stand up in their height, all that drink water: for they are all delivered unto death, to the nether parts of the earth, in the midst of the children of men, with them that go down to the pit.
    (15) Thus saith the Lord GOD; In the day when he went down to the grave I caused a mourning: I covered the deep for him, and I restrained the floods thereof, and the great waters were stayed: and I caused Lebanon to mourn for him, and all the trees of the field fainted for him.
    (16) I made the nations to shake at the sound of his fall, when I cast him down to hell with them that descend into the pit: and all the trees of Eden, the choice and best of Lebanon, all that drink water, shall be comforted in the nether parts of the earth.
    (17) They also went down into hell with him unto them that be slain with the sword; and they that were his arm, that dwelt under his shadow in the midst of the heathen.
    (18) To whom art thou thus like in glory and in greatness among the trees of Eden? yet shalt thou be brought down with the trees of Eden unto the nether parts of the earth: thou shalt lie in the midst of the uncircumcised with them that be slain by the sword. This is Pharaoh and all his multitude, saith the Lord GOD.

    (Note: “the nether parts of the earth” means “the heart of the womb of the earth”)

    #6 Numbers 16:30-35
    (30) But if the LORD make a new thing, and the earth open her mouth, and swallow them up, with all that appertain unto them, and they go down quick into the pit; then ye shall understand that these men have provoked the LORD.
    (31) And it came to pass, as he had made an end of speaking all these words, that the ground clave asunder that was under them:
    (32) And the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed them up, and their houses, and all the men that appertained unto Korah, and all their goods.
    (33) They, and all that appertained to them, went down alive into the pit, and the earth closed upon them: and they perished from among the congregation.
    (34) And all Israel that were round about them fled at the cry of them: for they said, Lest the earth swallow us up also.
    (35) And there came out a fire from the LORD, and consumed the two hundred and fifty men that offered incense.

    #7 Luke 16:19-26
    (19) There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day:
    (20) And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores,
    (21) And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man’s table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.
    (22) And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham’s bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
    (23) And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
    (24) And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
    (25) But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
    (26) And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.

    #8 Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

  • Kate Akele

    Nice addition! What’s your opinion on ‘eyewitness’ accounts of those who ‘went’ to hell and back? it’s slightly on the rise here in Naija and the surprising thing is, these accounts match despite the time line and the different geographical locations. Just curious!

  • Hanelie

    Sadly, despite the vast amount of very useful information available here, I am still deeply saddened by what I see here.

    I have to agree with Paul’s opening sentence above. Humans, and that includes Christians, will get things wrong sometimes. Even those who have been given authority by God. Luckily, though, we (all born-again Christians) have the Holy Spirit to teach us right from wrong. After all, Scripture teaches us not to trust princes (Ps. 145:3) and that we need no teacher other than the Holy Spirit:

    “But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, HE WILL TEACH YOU ALL THINGS, and bring to your remembrance all things that I have said to you.” (John 14:26)
    “However, when He, the Spirit of truth, has come, HE WILL GUIDE YOU INTO ALL TRUTH …” (JOHN 16:13)

    Lastly, I would like to know how discernment is defined here? I seem to see so many references to study and research that it almost appears as if that is the basis of it (but that might be a skewed impression)?

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)


    Firstly I am sure Paul is speaking about a genuine Christian who is preaching on something that will not affect ones FAITH or SALVATION etc. There is a difference between someone preaching blatant false teaching and following a completely different gospel other than the one preached by Jesus Christ, to making a slight mistake on something very very small.

    >> Lastly, I would like to know how discernment is defined here?

    Discernment comes by the Holy Spirit and Holy Spirit only.

    John 14:26; But the Comforter, who is the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

    John 16:13; However, when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will show you things to come.

    Are we to study to find ourselves approved? Be like the BEARENS were who studied the scriptures day and night?

    2 Timothy; 2:15 “Study to show yourself approved to God, a workman that needs not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

    Acts 17:11; “These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.”

    Everyone on this website that has been exposed, have been exposed because their entire doctrine, everything they believe in is false, not just a little bitty bit of it that needs correction. No their entire beliefs are twisted around a false gospel and they are preaching this false gospel to thousands of other people, and leading multitudes to hell.

    There is a new kinda love today and it is one that says that “Brotherly love goes deeper than doctrine”, that we must all just accept each others views and then hug each other and hopefully someone will change – but to which side no one knows. We all know which way the world is heading so one can clearly make a bet and say the huggers will succumb to the Emergent way of love and unity and it’s false teaching very quickly.

    Genuine LOVE is preaching the gospel truth and nothing but the truth to those in serious error, and they will fight and shout and kick and scream, but it if they refuse to listen, (John 3:20; “20 For everyone that does evil hates the light, neither comes to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed.” ) it shows that there is no light in them. As for the people who listen to the false teachers and prophets that need to hear the truth, the same goes for them. Many are caught up in a trap and need a way to escape and reading the truth about the teachings of their so called prophet or Apostle has helped many get on their knees and seek Jesus Christ in earnest.

    What does the bible say we must do about these people who are causing such harm to the body of Christ?

    Mark Them Which Cause Division

    Romans 16:17-18 “17Now I beseech you, brethren, MARK THEN which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them. 18For they that are such serve not our Lord Jesus Christ, but their own belly; and by good words and fair speeches deceive the hearts of the simple.”

    Do Not Tolerate Wicked People

    Revelation 2:2-3 (Amp) “2 I know your industry and activities, laborious toil and trouble, and your patient endurance, and how you cannot tolerate wicked [men] and have tested and critically appraised those who call [themselves] apostles (special messengers of Christ) and YET ARE NOT, and have found them to be IMPOSTORS AND LIARS. 3 I know you are enduring patiently and are bearing up for My names sake, and you have not fainted or become exhausted or grown weary.”

    1. Clearly tells us we are not to tolerate wicked men
    2. Clearly tells us we are to TEST (1 John 4:1-6)
    3. Clearly tells us we are to CRITICALLY APPRAISE
    4. Jesus warns us about these so called apostles who are nothing but liars and impostors.
    4 We are told to MARK those who cause division (Romans 16:17-18)

    As Christians We Must Judge Righteously

    As Christians we do not judge a persons life, i.e., sin, because we are all sinners (Matt 7:1)., we judge righteously according to the Word of God. The Bible commands us to judge fellow Christians teachings and their fruit. Those in the church we are to judge according to the Word of God. Those outside of the church we show them the error of their ways, preach the gospel to them and then leave them in Gods hands. We are also commanded to judge/test their teachings/doctrine to make sure it is correct and that it ties up with scripture.

    There are many verses in the bible where we are told to JUDGE/TEST:

    1 Thessalonians 5:21 (Amp); “21But test and prove all things [until you can recognize] what is good; [to that] hold fast.”

    Matthew 7:15-20 (Amp); “15Beware of false prophets, who come to you dressed as sheep, but inside they are devouring wolves. 16You will fully recognize them by their fruits. Do people pick grapes from thorns, or figs from thistles? 17Even so, every healthy (sound) tree bears good fruit [worthy of admiration], but the sickly (decaying, worthless) tree bears bad (worthless) fruit. 18A good (healthy) tree cannot bear bad (worthless) fruit, nor can a bad (diseased) tree bear [excellent fruit [worthy of admiration]. 19Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and cast into the fire. 20Therefore, you will fully know them by their fruits.”

    1 Corinthians 5:12-13 (Amp); “12What [business] of mine is it and what right have I to judge outsiders? Is it not those inside [the church] upon whom you are to pass disciplinary judgment [passing censuring sentence on them as the facts require]? 13God alone sits in judgment on those who are outside. Drive out that wicked one from among you [expel him from your church].”

    1 Corinthians 14:29 (Amp); “29 So let two or three prophets speak [those inspired to preach or teach], while the rest pay attention and weigh and discern what is said.”

    John 7:24 (Amp;) “24Be honest in your judgment and do not decide at a glance (superficially and by appearances); but judge fairly and righteously.”

    Titus 1:9-16 (Amp;) “9He must hold fast to the sure and trustworthy Word of God as he was taught it, so that he may be able both to give stimulating instruction and encouragement in sound (wholesome) doctrine and to refute and convict those who contradict and oppose it [showing the wayward their error]. 10For there are many disorderly and unruly men who are idle (vain, empty) and misleading talkers and self-deceivers and deceivers of others. [This is true] especially of those of the circumcision party [who have come over from Judaism]. 11Their mouths must be stopped, for they are mentally distressing and subverting whole families by teaching what they ought not to teach, for the purpose of getting base advantage and disreputable gain. 12One of their [very] number, a prophet of their own, said, Cretans are always liars, hurtful beasts, idle and lazy gluttons. 13And this account of them is [really] true. Because it is [true], rebuke them sharply [deal sternly, even severely with them], so that they may be sound in the faith and free from error, 14[And may show their soundness by] ceasing to give attention to Jewish myths and fables or to rules [laid down] by [mere] men who reject and turn their backs on the Truth. 15To the pure [in heart and conscience] all things are pure, but to the defiled and corrupt and unbelieving nothing is pure; their very minds and consciences are defiled and polluted. 16They profess to know God [to recognize, perceive, and be acquainted with Him], but deny and disown and renounce Him by what they do; they are detestable and loathsome, unbelieving and disobedient and disloyal and rebellious, and [they are] unfit and worthless for good work (deed or enterprise) of any kind.”

    1 John 4 (Amp); “1BELOVED, DO not put faith in every spirit, but prove (test) the spirits to discover whether they proceed from God; for many false prophets have gone forth into the world.”

  • Hanelie

    Thank you for the detailed response to my question, Deborah.

    Deborah (Discerning the World) wrote:

    Firstly I am sure Paul is speaking about a genuine Christian

    That is what I had assumed too.

    Deborah (Discerning the World) wrote:

    There is a difference between someone preaching blatant false teaching and following a completely different gospel other than the one preached by Jesus Christ, to making a slight mistake on something very very small.

    But, when is it very, very small, and when not? When Paul was corrected by Peter, was his mistake very, very small? Or could it possibly have mislead the Jewish believers? If it was so small (as to insignificant), why did Paul correct him publicly? If we want to be technical about it, Peter was “teaching and following a completely different gospel other than the one preached by Jesus Christ”, but did that make him a false prophet (apostel)? Surely not.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)


    Small in my mind would be for instance, where is hell? I mean, where is hell… if it’s in the middle of the earth our out somewhere in the universe it does not matter. Will it mislead people into believing an entirely false gospel? Well that all depends on who is doing the preaching and what the rest of his ‘beliefs’ look like. If he distorts what hell is and who it’s meant for etc, then we need to wave a big red flag. Now please I am using this example of ‘where hell is” as an EXAMPLE. I have not ‘studied to show myself approved’ on this subject (I am busy researching it at the moment) so don’t know the answer as yet, it could very well be a major issue and lead off into a whole other doctrine I am unaware of – and I am sure there is just someone out there who is just waiting to jump down my throat because of this.

    So, going back to your first comment you said, “I am still deeply saddened by what I see here……..Humans, and that includes Christians, will get things wrong sometimes.” and now your second comment, “But, when is it very, very small, and when not? When Paul was corrected by Peter, was his mistake very, very small?……If it was so small (as to insignificant), why did Paul correct him publicly?”

    I’mmmmmmm just a little confused as to what you are trying to ask me. You are giving me mixed messages.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Ahhh Hanelie

    I thought I knew you from somewhere…your ‘mixed message’ spirit was easy discernible.

    You have commented on this blog before and gave me a hard time.

    7 Comments here: as-christians-we-must-judge-righteously, — here you tell me that I should not call out false teaching
    4 comments here: unconditional-election-and-total-depravity-are-gnostic-teachingshere you tell us that you are a Calvinist
    3 comments here: delightfully-deceptive-new-age-ministries-for-woman-on-the-increaseHere you can’t see anything wrong with new age teachings.

    Please don’t comment again.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)


    Ok I have gone to do my research since your comment and inbetween answering Hannelie (the Emergent). It’s quite simple really…

    There are quite a few theories on the location of where hell could be. The TRADITIONAL theory is that hell is in the centre of the earth, however other theories are now saying that hell could be in a black hole in outer space.

    In the OT the world hell is Sheol meaning ‘pit’ and ‘grave’ and in the NT is it Hades meaning ‘unseen’ and Gehenna meaning the ‘Valley of Hinnom.’ Both Hades and Sheol refers to a temporary abode of the ungodly before Judgement (Psalm 9:17; Revelation 1:18). Gehenna refers to the eternal state of punishment for the ungodly, Mark 9:43; “43 And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched”.

    The notion that hell is below us or maybe in the center of the earth comes from verses such as Luke 10:15; And thou, Capernaum, which art exalted to heaven, shalt be thrust down to hell. However thrust ‘down’ more than like denotes condemnation rather than a physical direction. The witch of Endor say the spirit of Samuel “coming up out of the ground” 1 Samuel 28:13-15, but this is just a vision and nothing else.

    Before Jesus ascended into heaven Ephesians 4:9; “He also descended . . . into the lower parts of the earth. Some believe ‘the lower parts of the earth’ is a reference hell in the center of the earth. I check the 1611 KJV and it definitely says Jesus descended into “the lower parts of the earth” The NIV says, “he also descended to the lower, earthly regions. this translation does not give reference to His location after death.

    The idea that hell is in a black hole is based on the fact that science has discovered that a black holes are places of great heat and high pressure, and nothing, not even light can escape. Walt Disney presented the concept of hell as a black hole back in 1979 where characters passed through a black hole and the villain finds himself in a fiery place of torment, while the other bodies appear to enjoy ‘heaven’. Of course we don’t go by what TV says let alone Walt ‘Illuminati’ Disney, so I myself think this concept is bogus, even if science does give stats that could present something fiery hot.

    As for the ‘lake of fire’ spoke of in Revelation 20:10-15; when the earth is destroyed by fire (2 Peter 3:10; Revelation 21:1), another theory goes that God will use that burning earth as the everlasting place of torment for the ungodly. This to me sounds crazy, because where exactly will the new earth be during the Millennium.

    Conclusion, hell is a literal, REAL, place of torment, and it will be everlasting. Where it is I am not sure, but it very well might be in the center of the earth.

    I think the big thing we should worry about is not where hell is, but make sure we don’t land up there :)

  • Hanelie


    I still pray for you.

    I have never called myself a Calvinist; you did. Go read that thread again.

    [Edited by DTW: You said that you go to a Calvinist church, but don’t believe yourself to be a Calvinist, yet you go to the lions den each Sunday… because you feel God has called you there. Whey God has called you to a false church, only the Lord alone knows. You said, “I am in this church, because this is where God has called me to work. It is not where I had wanted to be. I do not go there to grow that I trust Christ and the Holy Spirit for, and yet I have grown as a result of some of the preaching there< . I have often questioned some of it too. I fellowship in many places, so that is not why I go there either yet I have had great fellowship there too. I cannot work there if I am angry and hateful. Maybe that is why God is walking this road of love with me. I have been called to love the ones that have been misled, to lead them back though love (that is how He lead me back).” —- You have been called to love people who have been mislead? Hmm That’s not biblical. Love is preaching the gospel! So instead of making friends, you should be preaching the gospel to these people in the Calvinist church who are misled that they find Jesus Christ.]

    I have never approved of new age teaching (and never will). See if you can find a quote of me approving it. You won’t.

    [Edited by DTW: Hannelie said here, “In her book A message of Hope, Retah calls on Christians to forgive, set free and bless even those who have wronged them. She also tells readers to judge her teaching against the Word and the testimony of the Holy Spirit.” and “On Retah: I have read one of her books and listened to some of her cds. I thought they were scripturally correct and rather bold calling Christians to do the hard things (look inside our own hearts).” Retah is part of the NAR and has a son who communicates with spirit called wisdom.

    I never said we are not to call out and correct false teaching. I did not agree with the way it is done here.
    [EDITED by DTW: And what way is what exactly?]

    You seem to enjoy exposing Christians as false teachers. How could that be?

    [EDITED by DTW – Exposing Christian as false teachers? That will be the day…Please name all these Christians I am exposing as false teachers… seriously, please name these Christian people I am exposing as false teachers. I am guessing it’s got to do with Calvinism.]

    I wonder what you would have called Peter had he lived (and erred) today. Because, let’s be honest: his mistake was no small one; it went to the heart of the gospel. He was a Christian who had made a BIG mistake. The size of the mistake can not be the deciding (judging) factor.

    [EDITED by DTW, if time was back then 2000 years ago I was lucky enough to have Peter as my friend (who I could point out issues to, and vice versa) because Peter and I both followed Jesus Christ as Lord and Saviour]

    You’ve misconstrued everything I have said (except for the time I gave you praise). I wonder why.

    [EDITED by DTW – You have not praised me Hannelie, and no I’ve misconstrued nothing, I’m just clearly beginning to understanding your agenda.]

  • Paul (Continue in His Word)

    Thanks Debs for your response.

    You are right about the issue of a brother/sister “making a slight mistake on something very very small”, versus “someone preaching blatant false teaching and following a completely different gospel other than the one preached by Jesus Christ”.
    For example, when Bill Johnson (and Co) teach that “Jesus was born again”, you immediately need to run for your life and expose him as loud and clear as possible.

    In replying to Hanelie, you said:
    >>I have not studied to show myself approved on this subject (I am busy researching it at the moment) so dont know the answer as yet, it could very well be a major issue and lead off into a whole other doctrine I am unaware of.

    That is exactly my fear about this whole speculation about the location of Hell, and it can lead to more questions without answers and more speculation that can lead people outside of Scripture.

    I believe sometimes we should simply rely on Deut 29:29:
    “The secret things belong unto the LORD our God: but those things which are revealed belong unto us and to our children for ever, that we may do all the words of this law.”

  • Paul (Continue in His Word)

    Retry of my above post (I’m trying to use the HTML tags):

    Kate Adele wrote:
    Nice addition! Whats your opinion on eyewitness accounts of those who went to hell and back? its slightly on the rise here in Naija and the surprising thing is, these accounts match despite the time line and the different geographical locations. Just curious!

    I would say: What the Bible says about Hell is sufficient to me. God did not say that from time to time some people will go to Hell and then come back to tell us what they saw. That is blind mysticism, and the believer is wise not to go there. You should be aware that we are in the end-times, and the Devil and seducing spirits (spirits of deception) are active as never before.

    The same goes for Heaven. (Debs has some good articles here about trips to Heaven, visions of Jesus, angels visitations)

    2Tim 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
    2Tim 3:17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

  • Hanelie


  • Colin Ford

    There is an article on where Alan Franklin it’s proprietor/editor has a piece which comments on Terry James (Rapture Ready) thrice coming back from the dead.
    I would be interested to hear any comments on this.
    I apologize in advance for not being able to post the link on to your site. My IT skills are very lacking!

  • Colin Ford

    I didn’t realize that by typing the www. address in your comment box would provide a link to Mr Franklin’s website.
    By the way, the little mugshot icon on the left looks just like me!

  • Burning Lamp

    The location of hell question is a bunny trail and a diversion. What is really important is to share the Gospel so people won’t go there whereever it is!

    As I understand it, there is a temporary holding place called Hades and at White Throne Judgement the unsaved will be thrown into the lake of fire that was prepared for the devil and his angels. Hades is a place of torment, but nothing compared to the hell of the future.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)


    I don’t follow after what man thinks only what the bible says, so if Terry James who ever he is deceived in other areas of his life, that is not my problem.

    Do you follow Kim Clement who agrees exactly with what you say about pre-trib? Go read it and see what he says and you will see that you two might be able to go bowling together on Saturday nights.

    Let me tell you a story, when I was saved I knew nothing of Christianity, in other words, I was not brainwashed by WoF or Calvinism or any other doctrine. I had a clean brain for God to work with. I sat with my bible and my laptop and I prayed and studied for years learning the Gospel Truth as the Holy Spirit taught me. My eyes were opened and the flood of information came pouring in, and by the guidance of the Holy Spirit I knew what was false and what was truth. And one of the many things I found myself studying was the rapture directly from scripture and understanding eschatology and where Israel stands in the end times and that there will be a 7 year tribulation period in which the church does not go through. Those 7 years are for Israel, when God turns his attention back to His people as the gentile world attacks Jerusalem form all angles.

    Now you can believe what ever you want, but please do not try and tell me that because some false teacher preached the rapture, now the rapture must be false. Of course it would be a wonderful ploy of Satan to discredit the rapture, just like the rest of the Gospel of Jesus by having false teachers preach certain areas correctly, while others incorrectly. Now regarding your views; if you want to dump me in the camp with false teachers, then I can label you in the camp with the Roman Catholic Church because they deny a pre-trib rapture as well – in fact you are following the exact eschatology of the RCC.

    So after you go bowling with Kim Clement you can have tea with the Pope ;)

  • Hanelie

    [I’m deleting this one too please do not comment again. The last time you were here you gave me a hard time and you are doing it again, you accuse me of calling Christians false teachers, well.. I do not. I asked to to tell me who they were and you did not. If you can’t answer me then please leave. I am not interested in listening to your ‘Emergent’ love story.]

  • Paul (Continue in His Word)

    Franklin Graham is bringing the carnal monstruosity called “Rock the River” to Ottawa on Sept 29-30.
    A well meaning “christian” colleague of mine told about it and invited me. (I used to fellowship with this friend and with the ecumenical crowd at my workplace, but since last year I have SEPARATED from them)

    “Rock the river” is a two-days mega rock concert fit for this evil age.
    The news of the event can be found here:

    Back in 2009, a pastor wrote the following article about it : “Franklin Graham: Minister of Christ or Priest of Baal?”

    If the foundations be destroyed, what can the righteous do?
    Oh God open the eyes of those who truly belong to you, that they may see. And for those that are lost, please save some. Lord help me and enable me to warn and help those that I can.

    I would like to gather some true believers in the city, to go tot the sidelines and preach the gospel of Christ and bear biblical witness against this satanic event.

  • Colin Ford

    Many thanks for your advice. However I must reject it!
    The Roman Church is a whore church which is unbiblical to it’s core. I could write pages and pages here on it’s many, many errors, but that would be pointless, because you, and most contributors here, would, I hope know this. And besides, this is why ecumenism is wicked, because in all its forms, it leads to Rome.
    As for Mr Clement, I certainly shall not go bowling with him, unless of course he repents of his ways…
    I only mentioned the article on the Free press homepage (pre-trib teacher) because it was pertinent to the thread.
    Of course you cannot ‘chuck the baby out with the bath water’, and say that just because some are in agreement with certain doctrines, that they are necessarily in agreement with everything! You would be no doubt aware of your common agreement with the Roman Catholic Church i.e;Abortion,euthanasia,homosexuality,and much else etc.
    My problem with the pre-tribulation, any moment, secret rapture teaching, however, is that I cannot find it in the bible. But of course if you carve up the Word, and say large parts of Matthew 24 and other Scriptures are ‘not for the Church’, then miss apply 1 Thessalonians 4.16 as well, then all sorts of errors will occur.
    I still get e-mails etc from pre-tribulation rapture teachers because I used to believe in this teaching myself. Clearly and obviously everything they teach is not wrong! I believe Mr Franklin however is wrong to endorse Terry James book.
    BTW,I do NOT believe that the Church has replaced Israel; we have a common salvation….

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)


    >> My problem with the pre-tribulation, any moment, secret rapture teaching, however, is that I cannot find it in the bible. But of course if you carve up the Word, and say large parts of Matthew 24 and other Scriptures are not for the Church, then miss apply 1 Thessalonians 4.16 as well, then all sorts of errors will occur.

    “…and say large parts of Matthew 24 and other Scriptures are not for the Church”??? Err Hulo! Who says this? You do, not I or any other person I know. You’ve asked this before and I told you, no, and now you say it again…as if you never heard me the first time.

    —> So…Speaketh to the Handeth.

    You do not understand end time eschatology properly therefore you are twisting things, not me. I think you should first focus on the fact that you follow the false doctrine of Calvinism – get that sorted and maybe everything else will follow suit.

    Now please, go comment on a blog that cares for your false teaching and that includes Calvinism. This blog is not here so that you can come and fill it with your false teaching Colin!

  • Hanelie

    Deborah, I reacted too strongly. Please forgive me. None of us like being accused of things we don’t think we did. That is no excuse for my behavior though – I (as we so often do) did exactly what I held you guilty for, acting without love.

    I give you “a hard time” as you call it, because I am trying to understand. Where I am wrong, please point it out. I might not accept it straight away, but I will take it with me to test against the Spirit and the Bible. I am still learning and will always be. As we all should be.

    But, please remember that we come from different backgrounds. Most of us have been exposed to some (often huge amounts) of deception. It is not something you work through in a moment. I have uncovered layers of it in my life, only just to find yet deeper layers of it at a later stage. Deception doesn’t come to us a a single lie, but a constellation of lies with layers and layers of traditions and half truths (or even 99% truths) working together to undermine the true message of Christ. Depending on where we are in the process of uncovering the lies we had come to believe as truth, some things might be hard for us to swallow. It might take time and we might need to have patience with one another. So, as you question me and my perspectives, I might question yours.

    I heard a teacher make an interesting statement yesterday: that we define Truth as a thing (idea, ideology, theory, etc.), while it is a person: Christ. He used John 8:32 and John 14:6 to make an argument about the importance of having a relationship with Christ. Maybe that caught me because of where I come from – the intellectual approach of Calvinist congregations which often favour understanding Christ over knowing Him. So, I am still finding strongholds from my reformed upbringing in my thoughts.

  • Hanelie

    I am not trying to wear you down, I think a grammatical error on my side might have given you the wrong idea. I’m sorry.

    I am NOT in reformed congregation. I was, and was lead out of it by the Holy Spirit. Although, I had been freed from its bondage (thankfully!), the Holy Spirit still shows me remnants of its strongholds in my life daily (such as the need to understand and explain, while faith is to believe what you cannot see or explain). I have felt the brunt of speaking the Truth in my previous congregation long before I left, but I didn’t want to leave just because it was easier for me. And, I believe there were certain things the Holy Spirit still had to teach me while I was there.

    I know you do not want me to comment anymore, so at the risk of really trying your patience, I have a question for which I have used the search function on the site, but I was not allowed access to the linked article.

    What is an “emergent”? I’ve Googled, but can’t seem to find a single, simple definition.

    Oh, also, why should I study the Latter Rain (NAR) movement?

    Thank you for tolerating me a little longer.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Dear Hanelie

    I ask you nicely to please do the following: First read the following article: I am not saying you are not save, I am just saying, you need to touch up on how to have a genuine RELATIONSHIP with Jesus Christ, because without the relationship, you have nothing. Then…pray and ask Jesus to open your eyes to the truth of the complete doctrine of Calvinism, every inch of it. Then you are to go and study the doctrine of Latter Rain (New Apostolic Reformation), every inch of it, go and study this doctrine and learn what it’s about, let the Holy Spirit teach you what is ERROR and what is truth. Take your bible and study! Pray and ask Jesus to guide you in all earnest because time is running out Hanelie, He is coming back soon, and you I am afraid are sitting on the fence.

    You also need to leave the church you are attended, UNLESS you start to preach the GOSPEL truth to the people you fellowship with, otherwise you are doing nothing but feathering your own desires of having friends. TRUE LOVE is preaching the Gospel truth AT ALL COSTS. And if they kick you out Hanelie, you did the job that God sent you to do. But you can only preach the truth, if you yourself know the truth.

    My website is full of articles, read them or don’t. But please if you do anything, pray and ask that Jesus opens you eyes to the truth and QUICKLY. You say the Holy Spirit shows us things slowly… well you are wrong, He does not. He leads us into ALL TRUTH and very quickly. Jesus does not have time to mess around. It’s us who mess around with Him. If you want to know the truth Hanelie, He will show you, until then you will remain in darkness.

    When I was saved I learned the Bible and theology (self taught with the guidance of the Holy Spirit in only 2 years. The flood of information came pouring in because I was willing and eager to listen to the Holy Spirit, submit to Jesus in every area of my life and NOT MAKE EXCUSES. Jesus Christ is my authority and He is the one I look to minute every day and He guides me to preach the truth and get past the myriad of nasty comments that get thrown at me daily, many I delete that you don’t see.

    Satan tries to wear me down daily by telling me that I speak nastily to others when I DO NOT. The problem is that the TRUTH hurts and this is what get’s people and this is what upsets people. But if I don’t speak the truth no one will.

    You say you question my perspectives, but have not once asked a single biblical question, pertaining to my articles. All you have done is judge me and say I do not love and accuse me of hate. Instead of going to study to show yourself approved as to why I write about the things I do, no you jump down my throat about because you perceive I write unlovingly to people. It’s your opinion Hanelie. It’s what you perceive Hanelie. I am not unloving, I do not write unloving to people.

    You know what the bible says about genuine Christians who have the Holy Spirit abiding in them? It says they can ‘recognize’ each other by the words they speak. Why can you not regonise that this is a Christian website? As I said before, the Holy Spirit does not leave us in the dark, He is quick to teach us, He is quick to show us the truth. He is quick to show us that what we are hearing or reading is the Word of God.

    Now I have spoken the truth to you for the last time. There is more than enough info on this website for you to learn WITH THE GUIDANCE OF THE HOLY SPIRIT.

    You don’t need to comment again because the chances are I have answered the question already in the comments section.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)


    >> What is an emergent

    Emergent Church is a mixture of New Age paganism, eastern mysticism and evangelical dominionism (Latter Rain NAR movement)

    >> Oh, also, why should I study the Latter Rain (NAR) movement?

    You need to study what this is because this is what the so called Christian church IS today. Every church you go has been taken over by Latter Rain (NAR) or will still be a combination of Word of Faith and Latter Rain.

    If you study this movement you will understand the way the world is moving and why it will join the Roman Catholic Church and welcome the anti-Christ.

  • Hanelie

    Thank you, that helps. That is also why I have not joined any other “church” or denomination, but am waiting for the guidance of the Holy Spirit instead. I’ve seen and read quite a bit about the move back to the Roman Catholic “church”. Sad, dark and dreadful. It’s not “easy reading”.

    You called me an “emergent”. Why? I am asking because it might be that you have picked up on something (some mental remnant of the deception I had been freed from) which I still need to submit to the Holy Spirit.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)


    There is a lot more to being Emergent than just my basic explanation. Emergents want to LOVE and throw the gospel of Jesus Christ out the window at the same time. I called you an Emergent because you were portraying this exact type of vibe. Love, love, love was all you could speak about but yet you could not fault me on a single bit of anything I had said based on the Word of God.

    You see there is an antiChrist ‘spirit of love’ that is going around the world right now that is imposing itself on unbelievers and Christians alike; on unbelievers it says they must unite, does not matter what they believe, and for the Christians it says they must love their so called ‘brother’ no matter what deceptive doctrines they preach. This is a lie from Satan.

    I had someone called Miste call me a murderer yesterday because I don’t love my bretheren according to her (she was speaking about Paul Washer – A Calvinist), She quoted the following scripture to me out of context of course.

    1 John 14-16 14. We know that we have passed out of death into life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not abideth in death. 15. Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him. 16. Hereby know we love, because he laid down his life for us: and we ought to lay down our lives for the brethren.

    My reply to her was that the brother that is spoken of here is a GENUINE CHRISTIAN, not false ones. That you cant just pull out a verse and use it out of context with the rest of the Word of God. The rest of the Word of God states emphatically that you need to ABIDE in SOUND DOCTRINE and if you dont then you are not a child of God.

    If you PREACHING ANOTHER GOSPEL > (which is really no gospel at all) carries an anathema: let him be eternally condemned! (see Galatians 1:6-9)

    Now as a Christian, you do not kill, harm, hurt, cause grief, to anyone because of the Holy Spirit abiding in you and the commandments that are written into your heart! We love everyone, we forgive those who hurt us. The call for a Christian is to preach the Gospel of Jesus Christ, and because of that Jesus said, Matthew 10:22.”And you shall be hated of all men for my name’s sake: but he that endures to the end shall be saved.” Matthew 10:22 and John 15:18 “If the world hates you, keep in mind that it hated me first… and there are many more verse like this.

    The Emergent prefers love over truth, they prefer you to keep quiet over preaching the gospel, they prefer hugs and coffee and having dialog over stuff that has no spiritual impact in someone’s life, but preach the gospel and you lack love, you are a hater. Emergents get very sad very quickly because they just can’t seem to see the LOVE on this website and at the same time can’t see the same Jesus in me that’s in them. Well I should flipping well hope not, because I am a born again Christian and they are well…. pagan.

  • Hanelie

    Absolutely, we need both: love and truth. Sadly, “love’ (as it has been redefined by the enemy) has become a safe hiding space for those of us shirking our Christian responsibility (and a substitute for Christianity).

    Now, luckily, I was blissfully unaware of the whole “Emergent” thing, so you calling me that was just a curiosity. Had I known more about the term, I might have experienced it as hurtful. I guess, ignorance was bliss this time. :)

    I have absolutely no doubt that the one world church movement and all things related are yet more lies. The Bible is really clear that “all roads do not lead to Rome”. And I really can’t stand the “peace” sign that is suddenly on everything, especially on items targeted at children.

    Oh, Deborah, how I wish I could sit down over a cup of coffee with you. ;) Not to talk about silly things, but because each time you respond, I have more questions. Love, for example. I’d love to talk a lot more about love, but we can’t keep this going indefinitely.

  • Hanelie

    I’ve spend some time reading various threads here this morning, and as always, I have come away with a heavy heart. What a sad world of deep deception we live in. I wish there was no need to hear it all. As I struggled through the info, seeking the Lord’s guidance in it, I was reminded of Hos 4:6. I had always taken this to mean knowledge of Scripture, so it did not make sense at first, but then the Lord reminded me of another scripture: Ps 146:3. As long as I do not put my trust in men, but in God, I cannot be deceived. What a relief. How wonderful to have a God that encourages.

    And then, as I was writing this, another scripture came to mind: 1 Cor 1:12-13. Are we reminding fellow Christians of this often enough?

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)


    >> I was reminded of Hos 4:6. I had always taken this to mean knowledge of Scripture but then the Lord reminded me of another scripture: Ps 146:3. As long as I do not put my trust in men, but in God, I cannot be deceived.

    Hosea 4:6 “6 My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge: because thou hast rejected knowledge, I will also reject thee, that thou shalt be no priest to me: seeing thou hast forgotten the law of thy God, I will also forget thy children.”

    No Hanelie, “My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge”, that knowledge is the Word of God. Jesus is the Word. The Word is Jesus. You quote Pslam 146.3, which is all very well, but one can put their trust in God all they like, but if they do not open their bible and read the Word of God with the Holy Spirit in their life they lack knowledge in every sence of the word. The Bible is but just a book if one does not have the Holy Spirit abiding in you, guiding you, illuminating scriptures for you (illuminating the biblical way that is).

    I am interested Hanelie for you to answer the question I asked you a while back where you stated I accuse Christians of false teaching. I want you to tell me who these Christians are. Name them please.

  • Hanelie

    We’re saying the same thing. :) Maybe I’m just not eloquent enough?

    Deborah (Discerning the World) wrote:

    You quote Pslam 146.3, which is all very well, but once can put their trust in God all they like, but if they do not open their bible and read the Word of God with the Holy Spirit in their life they lack in every sence of the word. The Bible is but just a book if once does not have the Holy Spirit abiding in you, guiding you, illuminating scriptures for you (illuminating the biblical way that is).

    That is exactly what I meant, what “putting my trust in God” means to me. I don’t mean hiding behind trusting in God. I really mean trusting in God. Having a real relationship with Christ, through the Holy Spirit abiding in me. That is hard at times; I have to believe things I cannot see, I have to be sure that I really TRUST God (after years of deception undermining that very principle). Why do so many people rather follow other people? Because it’s easier, it sort of absolves them from that responsibility of getting to know Christ themselves, I think. Any relationship takes commitment, time (and correction).

    I chose to just refer to God in my quote above, because to me that implied that I was trusting Him to lead me though the Bible and the Holy Spirit. Sorry, I could have been clearer.

  • Hanelie

    Wow, I just read the “the-antichrist-is-not-just-about-islam” thread, and the last to posts there (by Deborah and Marion) is exactly what I was trying to say here.

    The thing is, I hate reading about all the false teaching. I also think there is a risk of becoming obsessed with it; I know people who are – Satan will do anything to prevent us from having a real relationship with Christ! But, I cannot just ignore it either. That’s why I struggled reading it. Hence, being reminded of Hos 4:6, didn’t at first make sense to me – I was gaining knowledge about other people, not Christ! That’s why the next to scriptures were so special. I am still in awe each time the Holy Spirit speaks to me. And how beautifully He does: using Ps 146 and 1 Cor 1 (which was what I needed to hear today) to remind me that our walk should be about a relationship with Christ. If it is about that, I will be protected from deception.

    Maybe I should not have shared that here today. I just thought there might be others who feel like I do and how might be encouraged by it.

  • Hanelie

    Deborah, accusing you of taking joy out of exposing Christians was a perception, and a thoughtless and unfair one, unbecoming of the Christian conduct I am called to exhibit. Please accept my apology. I still plan to answer your question in greater detail, but I don’t want it to be unfair or unguided again. In the meantime, let it suffice to say that this website has affected my spiritual growth positively. Amongst others, I had learned (what I had always known, but probably never really understood) that we cannot turn a blind eye to sin, far less to deception. Christ didn’t, and we should follow His example. He sternly corrected His disciples, sometimes repeatedly. He was very decisive and strict with the Pharisees, and showed them little patience. And, He wept for the heavy laded and mislead sinners.

    I want ask about something else though: Christmas (and Easter). Have you ever though to of putting together something on either or both of these?

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)


    Nooooooooooooo problem :)

    >> I want ask about something else though: Christmas (and Easter). Have you ever though to of putting together something on either or both of these?

    Yip, but I run out of time get side tracked to other things.

  • Hanelie

    ^^All, well the right time will come if you need to do it. There is a lot about it on the web anyway. Recent readings of some of that have me thinking that the traditions called “Christmas” are an amalgamation of various (not just one) pagan belief system. (The Bible is quite clear about following the traditions of men.) I actually told my husband that I need to put it in a table or something for myself to get a better grasp and to be better at making the case against it when I need to. Amazing, how strongly Christians will oppose you on this one, while at the same time complaining about the commercial nature of it. Deception everywhere.

    I still need to read more about Easter before I can speak about that with any authority.

  • Dan

    Hi Deb, thanks for a great website and the hard work you put into this. I’m still fairly new at this and I don’t know my bible well. I work in the music industry and duo to the line of work I’m in, it is demanded from me that I drink and socialize a lot! I have however made the decision to quit this industry (end of July) and to start aligning my life with the will of God.

    My wife is a buddhist, but she’s open to learning about God. I don’t know enough to start teaching her. She’s from an Asian background and to them, they simply can’t see why they need to “swop” buddha for a “western God”. Therefore I thought it’d be good to first show her about all the prophecies in the bible and how they came true. Teaching her about what is really going on in the world right now and the coming kingdom of God and how the bible predicted it all. Before I introduce her to Jesus and what he’s done for us. Jesus’ disciples asked Him ‘when these things will come to pass’ and He started telling them about the things that’s going to happen in the future. The sign they should be on the lookout for.

    Could you please point me in the right direction as far as articles on this site goes? From when the jews lost their land, to returning, to the European countries that will become a union up to where we are as far as bible prophecy is concerned in our current day? I think we might have missed the deadline for the rapture because we both still have so far to go and so much to learn, but I can’t give up. I love her and I don’t want to see her lost for good while I was the priest of my home.

    Thank you

  • Hanelie

    Oh, Dan, you know that Jesus will give you the words and direction, and I am sure Deborah and others will be able to offer advice as well. And, I am sure, many of us will carry you in our prayers too. How amazing to find someone prepared to really, really make a stand to Jesus in the way you plan to do.

    I don’t have any advice, sadly. But, I was wondering: have you ever read “I dared to call Him Father” by Bilquis Sheik. She was not buddhist, but Muslim, but came to know God without any Christian ministering to her (at first). She was simply lead, step by step, scripture by scripture, by God Himself. And, she made the really hard choice of becoming a Christian in Pakistan, at the cost of losing her family, standing, wealth, etc.

    My husband, this morning, told me that we should probably get all our “papers” from the “church” we belonged to in order to fully leave it. It is a prayer answered. Freedom. It’s a big step too, especially for him. He had been involved in commissions and things there, and had been in it all his life. I hadn’t been – tried a fwe other places as student. It is also only step 1. I thought I had no idea what step 2 was, but realized it is to simply stay in Christ and trust the Holy Spirit for guidance. I cannot see myself joining any other big-name church hastily, or at all. At the same time, a friend who had left the “church” years back had invited us for dinner tomorrow and told me that she had decided to invite along another couple who had walked a similar road. Coincidence? I think not.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)


    Ok, first things first, I ask you to read this thoroughly because it explains everything about salvation and repentance of sin so wonderfully.

    Understand that you need to make a FULL and UTTER commitment to God, no half measures or thoughts of going back. And by quiting your line of work, you to must ask Jesus for sincere repentance and ask Him to break any demonic influence it has over your life (because there most definitely is), this includes getting rid of your worldly music, etc.

    To be honest I would first work on getting your life sorted out with Jesus Christ before you start speaking to your wife. And the good news is Dan, the Holy Spirit works quickly :) The moment you come to Jesus and accept Him into your live with a genuine heart, never wanting to return to the world, the Holy Spirit will enter you, and then He will begin to teach you, and quickly. You will find you have this incredible desire to learn the truth, and the Holy Spirit leads us into ALL TRUTH , all the time. He will show you what to read, and you will discern what is truth and what is error because you will have the ability to discern because of the Holy Spirit abiding in you.

    You will hear his voice as a gentle whisper (like a 2nd conscience is you will) as He guides you. Get yourself a decent bible, one that has a chain reference as you are going to need it. A KJV or a NKJV will be fine – In fact the 2 parallel to one another is even better. Before you were saved you found that the bible meant nothing to you, after your salvation, the Holy Spirit illuminates (the biblical way) your mind and all of a sudden when you read the bible it all makes sense.

    And no Dan you are not too late for the Rapture, God knows when the very last person that needs to be saved must be saved before He returns to fetch His bride, He will not leave anyone behind.

    I have plenty of info on my site, and I can recommend you other websites as well with good learning info.

    In the mean time I will find some information as to why the Buddhist God is not the same as the God of the bible, that you can give her to read. You might want to print this out: (please note I only endorse the article)

    Then there is this DVD: 25 Messianic Signs that is EXCELLENT: 1h:44m long

  • Dan

    Hanelie & Deborah thank you for taking the time to comment. I will definitely check out all the links you provided. Deborah, I gave my life to Jesus when I was still a kid. I do believe the Holy Spirit is in me because I have been protected and guided out of a lot of trouble. The big problem for me was I never had anyone to guide me as to how to study the bible by myself. Always relied on the church and then when that didn’t work out for me, I gave up. Never stopped believing in God but I stopped trying to know Him. Now I’m at a crossroad in my life, I had to make a decision. Give up trying or give everything. ‘Cuz I’m not happy with my life. It isn’t all what it could and should be. I’m pretty sure it’s the Holy Ghost that brought me to your site, and it’s He who told me to quit my job, and it was He who told me two days ago to quit smoking and stop drinking. I struggle to sleep at night, there’s an urgency I feel inside of me to STOP and get ready. The time has come. Today is the last work related party I have to attend. I can’t wait to start over.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)


    Oh no, I am not saying you are not saved, I too gave my life to Jesus when I was a child, but then went off the rails as a teenager. Then hit rock bottom at the age of 30 and became genuinely born again around this time. I too had the Holy Spirit calling me my whole life, when I think back…there were times I heard Him, but ignored Him.

    I just want you to read that article because it explains salvation and what it means very very well. It is very possible that the Holy Spirit has been calling you your whole life and now is the time to make a full commitment to Jesus. And there is nothing wrong with re dedicating your life to Jesus quietly in your room. In fact I urge you to, because you have been living a life of sin, and you need to repent of this. Once you have asked Jesus for forgiveness for your life you have been living, you will start a-new, you will be born again, a NEW CREATURE in Christ Jesus. Remember you want to have a relationship with Jesus and you are going to be asking for forgiveness a lot because we are sinners and even after we are saved, we are still sinners, the idea is that through the chastisement of the Holy Spirit we sin less.

    >> The big problem for me was I never had anyone to guide me as to how to study the bible by myself.

    That’s the thing, you wont need anyone to guide you in helping you to study the bible, when you go down on your knees and recommit your life to Jesus Christ the Holy Spirit will enter you and HE will become your TEACHER.

    When you open your bible and start reading, start at the New Testament, everything will become clear. As you start to read articles on biblical matters, all of a sudden in your spirit you will know what what you are reading is the truth (this is because of the Holy Spirit) – but a warning there is so much FALSE doctrine out there its scary, but the Holy Spirit will teach you what is truth and what is error.

  • Dan

    Thanks Deborah.

  • Dan

    There’s no such thing as ‘Christian Rock music’, because the very basics of Rock comes from Blues. And Blues have it’s roots firmly in voodoo worship where the drumming patterns are used to put you in a trans. Which artists can you recommend to listen to?

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)


    To be honest I don’t recommend any. Even your ‘Christian worship music’ is tainted by people who profess the name of Jesus but are only doing it to make money (selling cd’s)

    I was very much into heavy music before I was saved, so I now do not listen to any music voluntarily. It was something that I gave up to follow Jesus Christ totally. I tried to find a replacement, but worldly music, be is classified as Christian is still worldly. People listen to it to satisfy their feelings, emotions, their flesh – they say they are praising God, but they are not, they themselves are enjoying the tune, not God.

    Sing to Jesus in your own privacy, with your own words, not someone else’s (who had a different meaning to their words).

  • John Chingford

    Hi Dan

    Following on from what Deborah said ….

    I wrote an article for that very reason that you gave, to help those like yourself get into Bible Study. Please look through this following article:

  • Dan

    Thanks John, I’ll check it out. Deborah I hear you on that. I guess I’m gonna have to write my own;-)

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)


    >> I guess Im gonna have to write my own;-)

    If you can, go for it. I sing in private for 2 reasons, 1) I suck, 2) I suck ahaha

  • Hanelie

    I was just wondering: any of you familiar with the work of Frank Viola (The Untold Story of the New Testament Church, Pagan Christianity, Reimagining Church, etc.)?

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)


    I am familiar with Frank Viola and he is New Apostolic Reformation (NAR) who merged with the worst of the worst Emergents.


    The Other Side of Emergent:

    “Religious leadership must end its intellectual and imaginative failure to think through what it is doing in the light of the new emerging cosmology, which is hospitable to spirit-matter theories and mindbody experiences.” – Leonard Sweet[1]

    Today is the launching of a new book, co-authored by Leonard Sweet and Frank Viola. This marks the open marriage of the Emergent movement with the New Apostolic Reformation (NAR).

    Sweet and Viola’s book, Jesus Manifesto, is subtitled “Restoring the Supremacy and Sovereignty of Jesus Christ,” and it pushes the envelope on redefining Jesus, including “You can be a Jesus Manifest.”[2] A quick glance at the lineup of key endorsers for this book includes a list of who’s who in Emergent, the Latter Rain cult, neoevangelicalism and the New Apostolic Reformation.

    In recent posts on this blog we have noticed that emerging church leader Leonard Sweet has links to the NAR.[3] The co-author of his book, Frank Viola, also has roots in the NAR. He has been connected with the House2House group, a movement that is ostensibly about “house” churches, but in reality is concerned with building the networking apostolic cellular model of church for the purpose of building the kingdom of God on earth. This is the same Dominionist goal that is characteristic of the NAR: “This amazing network of churches is rapidly transitioning as a network to embrace the simple church models that the Lord is blessing all around the world,” leading to the “transforming work of God in bringing people to Christ. . . leading to dramatic advances of the Kingdom of God.”[4] John Arnott of the Toronto “Laughing Revival” has been a notable contributor to the House2House magazine.[5] [Emphasis added]

    A key name associated with Frank Viola is Heidi Baker, whose frequently appears with her husband Rolland. They flourish in the New Apostolic Reformation and can often be found on the Elijah List (chief organ for the NAR)[6] and (a radical Dominionist group).[7] The Bakers spoke at the Global Awakening “Voice of the Apostles” conference, October 28-31, 2009 along with other NAR apostles Randy Clark, Che Ann, Bill Johnson and John Arnott.[8] Heidi was featured along with Latter Rain cult leader Rick Joyner at his MorningStar Ministries “Harvest Fest” held September 24-30, 2009.[9] The list of interconnections and associations with the NAR could go on and on… [Emphasis added]

    Neil Cole is another well-known name associated with Frank Viola and the House2House movement. He is also connected with Leadership Network.[10] Furthermore, Frank Viola’s book Organic Church: Growing Faith Where Life Happens is endorsed by such notables as Bob Buford (head of Leadership Network) and John Maxwell.[11] [DTW note: Bob Buford has been working since the mid-1990s to create a youth culture based on emergent theologies called the Emergent Church a mixture of New Age paganism, eastern mysticism and evangelical dominionism. Bill Bulford is friends with Ken Blanchard, a major proponent of mysticism. Well-known church growth guru Peter Drucker consulted to Bob Buford as well as Rick Warren.] [Emphasis added]

    Leonard Sweet endorsed one of Frank Viola’s earlier books, Reimagining Church: Pursuing the Dream of Organic Christianity, by connecting it to the idea of “God’s Dream,” an increasingly common metaphor.[12] Viola has also authored From Eternity to Here: Rediscovering the Ageless Purpose of God, described as “a whole new way of looking at the Scriptures, at Jesus, at the church, and at me,”[13] and endorsed by such Emergent leaders as Leonard Sweet, Brian McLaren, Dan Kimball, Shane Claiborne and many others. [Emphasis added]

    Characteristic of all of these recent emerging convergences, a MANIFESTO accompanies the agenda being promoted jointly by Sweet and Viola. It is called “A Magna Carta for Restoring the Supremacy of Jesus Christ a.k.a. A Jesus Manifesto for the 21st Century Church.” This Manifesto does not hearken back to the written Word of God in order to follow Jesus or His teachings. Instead it speaks of “implantation and impartation” and “incarnation.” This is based on imaging, imagining, visualization, meditation, and following a “Presence,” even using the term “cosmic Christ.”[14] The document also makes this amazing statement – an example of psycho-spiritual biblical revisionism: [Emphasis added]

    “The Bible does not offer a plan or a blueprint for living. The good news was not a new set of laws, or a new set of ethical injunctions, or a new and better PLAN. The good news was the story of a persons life, as reflected in The Apostles Creed. The Mystery of Faith proclaims this narrative: Christ has died, Christ has risen, Christ will come again. The meaning of Christianity does not come from allegiance to complex theological doctrines, but a passionate love for a way of living in the world that revolves around following Jesus, who taught that love is what makes life a success . . . not wealth or health or anything else: but love. And God is love.” [Emphasis added]

    It also seems to claim we are Christ:

    Jesus Christ cannot be separated from his church. While Jesus is distinct from his Bride, he is not separate from her. She is in fact his very own Body in the earth. God has chosen to vest all of power, authority, and life in the living Christ. And God in Christ is only known fully in and through his church….

    We, collectively, as the ekklesia of God, are Christ in and to this world.[15] [Emphasis added]

    All of this is a very quick overview, and there is much more that could be said. There are many more connections and associations. The key point is the context of this new book by Sweet and Viola. It isn’t just Emergent! This represents that much-anticipated, much touted New Apostolic Reformation great convergence, the many streams coming together into one big river!

    It was inevitable that the NAR would eventually openly connect with the Emergent Church. First, they are related historically in many diverse ways, some of which we have previously documented on this blog.[16] Second, and more obviously, the aberrant beliefs of the New Apostolic Reformation are nearly identical to those of the emerging church movement in some of the following ways:

    **The same Gnosticism, mysticism and altered states of consciousness. The belief that we are evolving to a higher order body of believers here on earth, and that if we would just jump through various mystical or restructuring hoops, paradise or “culture” would be renewed.

    **The belief that we can transform the Earth and restore it to pre-Fall conditions — either via a green environmentalism return to paradise (George Otis, James Rutz, Ralph Winter), or by building the kingdom of God on earth where Christians will reign and rule and finally “get it right” by imposing their kingdom authority on the whole planet (Dominionism).

    **The belief that God has assigned certain men with special abilities or supernatural powers to be rulers and kings, Apostles and Prophets (aka “leaders”) now on earth, in this present age.

    **The belief that the church should realign into a networking downline marketing “apostolic”/cells/small groups for a more “authentic”or “original” New Testament structure.

    **The deconstruction (de-emphasis, denigration or mangling) of solid biblical theology and practice, and the concoction of new theologies augmented with old/new extra-biblical practices.

    **The belief that God is giving his church new revelations, new understandings, or “fresh words” for these times, especially by including old manuscripts, mystical writings, supernatural incidents, extra-biblical traditions and sources, etc.

    **The idea that we are somehow responsible for bringing back Jesus either literally and physically, or that we are evolving or “incarnating” into little christs and/or one big cosmic Christ.

    **The idea that onerous and manipulative psycho-socio and scientific technologies are benevolent tools to bring in the kingdom on earth, including even altering the basic nature of man.

    This is not a complete list, but it does present an important overview.[17]

    In conclusion, it is important to remind readers that Len Sweet has always played a pivotal role in charting a 21st century course for reinventing Christianity. As Chief Scout of Leadership Network’s “Exploring Off The Map expedition” in 2000, he worked alongside New Age gurus like Margaret Wheatley, Ken Blanchard and Peter Senge to chart “NEW MAPS FOR AN ANCIENT FUTURE.”[18] This is not a new role for him, and he is still right on course. In this regard, Leadership Network has also played a pivotal role, not only launching the Emergent movement, but also giving a platform for the New Apostolic Reformation consistently throughout the past few decades. But that’s a topic for another time. . . . [Emphasis added]

    The Truth:

    “But God forbid that I should glory, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world is crucified unto me, and I unto the world.” (Galatians 6:14)


    Note: Articles posted by DTW are not an endorsement of the author, their website, ministry or any links therein. Readers are cautioned to use discernment at all times and test everything by the Word of God.

  • Hanelie

    Oh, Deborah, thank you for the detailed answer. I’m starting to be able to see the Emergent message this around me. Ouch. Ouch.

    But this explains a few things. I read Pagan Christianity – found some of it useful, but was mostly disappointed with it. I was signed up on Frank Viola’s blog, but it didn’t “sit” quite right with me – just couldn’t put my finger on it, so I never read any of the posts. This is sickening, really. :(

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)


    Don’t worry, you will learn quickly as the Holy Spirit shows you. And soon you will spot them like flies. Be happy that you can see the truth :)

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)


    Now also pay attention to the difference between the New Age love and genuine Christian love – this is the spirit I spoke about a while ago, that has take over the world, to love, but it’s not Christian love, it’s satanic love.

  • Hanelie

    Oh yes. I see now what you meant and why you responded to my earlier posts as you did. I don’t know what to say even: things are just becoming crystal clear and (as you have said) very quickly. Sickening. Really.

    I spoke to someone this weekend who knows a minister who does not believe that Christ is God. When asking him what he preaches then (since he leads a congregation, she says he said: “Ah, you know, love and things like that.”

  • Myfanwy Brown


    Have you heard of a man called Bob George? If you have, can you tell me what you know about him?

  • Hanelie

    John Chingford wrote:

    I wrote an article for that very reason that you gave, to help those like yourself get into Bible Study. Please look through this following article:

    Thank you for this, John. I read through it (will certainly use it) and scanned some of the other links you have. About a year ago, the Lord lead my husband and myself to drop all the “Bible study” devotional books we were using and focus on the Bible instead. As we embarked on this, we realized how poorly we knew the Bible! Your Bible study questions will be a great help.

  • Estelle

    Hello :)

    The New age ‘love’ reminds me of Rob bells book, Love Wins.
    (didn’t read it, but heard him in an interview talking about the book)
    It basically came down to 2 things for me. 1. He doesn’t want to believe there is a hell and 2. He believes in a universal god.
    (In that way he probably thinks no-one is going to hell (saved or unsaved), as “love conquers all”)

    The new age love for me = making a universalised god who wouldn’t be so cruel as to not send you to heaven.

    Got this quote from a link:

    “A staggering number of people have been taught that a select few Christians will spend forever in a peaceful, joyous place called heaven, while the rest of humanity spends forever in torment and punishment in hell with no chance for anything better, Bell writes.

    Its been clearly communicated to many that this belief is a central truth of the Christian faith and to reject it is, in essence, to reject Jesus.

    This is misguided and toxic and ultimately subverts the contagious spread of Jesuss message of love, peace, forgiveness, and joy that our world desperately needs to hear.”

    Just adding my thoughts…

  • Hanelie

    ^^I also saw the interview – made me very uncomfortable. It seems everywhere I turn these days, Rob Bell’s name pops up. I even found him on the website of a “new” church in Stellenbosch today.

    It suddenly occurred to me that I could possibly ask a question that has been bugging me for a while here. Eastern Orthodox art often depicts Jesus holding up two fingers. A minster in the church we used to go to told the congregation that Jesus was making the “V” peace sign as a symbol of what He has done for us. This was after my eyes were opened for all the lies and deception, but right at the beginning of this new walk. I immediately recoiled. I don’t like any hand or other signs and this one (together with the other common peace sign) is right at the top of my list. When this minister later said the same about another Eastern Orthodox painting, I did some research and asked some questions. One of the answers I got was that the 2-finger depiction in Eastern orthodox art often refers to the two pillars of the church: the Holy Scriptures and the Holy Tradition. According to the sources I found this “V” sign is definitely from the occult.

    Do any of you have more information on any of this? I assumed, at the time, that the minster was confusing the issues and adding his own layman’s interpretation to be cool and fashionable – to impress the kids, though my kids were hardly impressed and made their dismay so clear that we had to silence them. That said, in general, this minister was rather well informed about art interpretation (often used it in services). So, the more I thought about it, the less things were adding up. Now, I am starting to wonder: was he just deceived or was he deliberately deceiving? There seems to be a bigger picture, a bit of an Emergent agenda, here (he also once told my husband that he couldn’t preach about sin because then people would not come to church).

    And, as I am writing here, and I think back to that time, it is with shame that I put my kids through that and that I silenced them when they were speaking the truth and that I didn’t leave the congregation right then.

    I can surely just ignore all of this – but my mind tend to keep going back to things that seem just a little out of place … and many of my friends are still in that congregation. Knowing what I now know, what I have learned here, I can not keep quiet then, can I?

  • Louise

    Hi there

    It would be nice if you guys had a section giving us a little bit of information on yourselves and your statement of faith. It’s important to know exactly what people believe upfront before reading their views.

  • Dan

    Hi Deborah, I have a quick question. I have read through almost the whole new testament since my last comment here and soon I’ll be starting with the old testament. But something confuses me bit. Which of the promises in the bible are for the jews only? The way I understand it is that the new testament is for everyone, but parts of the old testament was for the jews only. How can I tell which ones I can take as my own and which ones would be taken out of context if I do? Thank you.

  • Rulof Jordaan


  • Vincent

    Some opinion regarding the topic around about the 27th June, the hebrew name of Jesus, read Isaiah 59:17 and take a look at the word salvation H3444 Stong has it as yesh?h, but if you spoke greek it would be Iesous. But regardless by which you prefer, if you don’t know Him or He says He doesn’t know you (Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.)
    If you do not know Jesus, you do not have access to the Father (Joh 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.)

    If you call yourself by any other name that is not of (Christ/Christos/Messiah), by my opinion you may have a problem, I’m not going to list the names, those groups know what I mean.

    We serve a jealous God who does not accept you if you do not accept His salvation, His Son.
    He is and shall always we the Beginning and the end and Centre of our faith in Him.

  • Dan

    Hi Deborah, I just want to say how great God is. In the past 14 months, I have experienced a true and living God. No longer is it just an idea, a religion – He’s real. If you remember just a few postings ago where I mentioned God came knocking at my heart, telling me it’s time to turn my life around. Quit drinking, quit what I was doing and quit my line of work. Well it sounds easy enough, but for me it involved moving to a new country as well with a pregnant wife;-) No house, no work and just over a $1000 in my pocket. My wife moved a month before me, duo to airline restrictions for pregnant woman. I prayed and I asked God to get me there in time before she gives birth. I didn’t want to miss the birth of my first born. My wife’s water broke a few hours after I arrived. Two days later I get a call from somebody inviting me for an interview, I sign the contract 15 min into the interview. I haven’t touched a drink, or smoked (cigarettes or dope) for about 6 weeks now. We have a nice place to live, we both have transport. God provided ALL of it. When He moves, there’s no stopping Him. He is amazing.

  • Flip vd Merwe

    Hi I would like to have your opinion as fellow christians regarding the following preacher and his lectures:

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)


    That is great news, God looks after his own, especially when you have given your ALL to him. Carry on the same Godly path your have chosen Dan and it will only get better, spiritually.

  • Marion

    Mark Woodman is a 7th day Adventist…that tells us everything we need to know.

  • Myfanwy Brown

    Hi Dan,

    What an amazing testimony of God’s goodness! When I just have faith and believe, and do the Lord’s will, even when I don’t have a clue how things will work out, everything falls into place.

    God bless and may you continue to walk in His light and love with faith.

  • edddycs

    Just a question I check in time to time to see if anything new “articles’ is posted -i almost thought this site had died. Whats up?

  • John Chingford

    Hanelie wrote:

    John Chingford wrote:

    I wrote an article for that very reason that you gave, to help those like yourself get into Bible Study. Please look through this following article:

    Thank you for this, John. I read through it (will certainly use it) and scanned some of the other links you have. About a year ago, the Lord lead my husband and myself to drop all the Bible study devotional books we were using and focus on the Bible instead. As we embarked on this, we realized how poorly we knew the Bible! Your Bible study questions will be a great help.

    Your very welcome. Thanks for letting me know. Please let me know how you get on. Sorry I have not replied earlier but I have only just noticed NOW that you wrote this.

  • Robbie

    Flip, Mark Woodman is a Seventh Day Adventist that died recently… false prophet who lures people with what seems to be the truth.
    Oldest trick in the Book.

    Good to see post moving again Debs :-) missed you!

  • Robbie

    Hi Myfanwy

    I personally suspect Bob George from “people to people ministries” and “real answers real life”?
    His “I am” and “who am I” sermons are typically Emergent.

    He was not easy to trace until I found his you tube sermons under P2P ministries and “real answers real life”

    He quotes half verses and makes a sermon of it…
    I am sure Debs will have more to say.

  • Dan

    In Matthew, Jesus gave his disciples the tools they need to go and preach the gospel. Those tools included raising the dead, why don’t we see that happening in modern times? In today’s world?

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)


    I have been very ill – on and off, which has been very annoying for me, but this time I hope to be back again full steam ahead :)

  • John Chingford

    Hi Burning Lamp

    All (and I mean ALL) my emails to you are being returned by daemon as “delivery failed”. It takes 24 hours EVERY time to get that notice.

    I am writing here because I do not know how else to contact you to let you know. I understand (in the past) Deborah was unable to contact you by email. Could I ask that you set yourself up with another email provider such as yahoo?

    I also have not received any emails from you for several days. It is rather frustrating.

    God bless

  • John Chingford

    Hi Dan

    The clue could be that raising the dead was given as a gift to the apostles. The apostles were given as “sent out ones” in the infant days of the church with a special dispensation to be miracle workers until the foundations of the church (the people of God) were established. It appears that the miraculous died out with the death of the apostles. Remember it was ONLY the apostles that Jesus told to heal the sick, raise the dead etc.

    Today there are many self appointed apostles who are trying to recreate the time of the early church by self effort, satanic activity etc. I read on Peter Wagner’s (the biggest 21st century “so called” apostle) website that “the end justifies the means”. Basically he was saying that ANYTHING which wins people into the church is acceptable because the end justifies the means. That thinking is unbiblical and totally false as it leaves the door open for demons.

    These apostles ARE NOT real apostles and cannot be anyway, because Jesus only appointed 12 apostles for a set period of time because the church did not have the full scriptures.

    Having said these things, I do believe that God may still raise the dead on very isolated occasions if the gospel is preached say to a tribe who have NEVER had exposure EVER to the gospel.

    Also, it appears that TRUE miracles were linked to Israel being a nation. The miracles seemed to have come to a halt around the time when the Jews were exiled out from Jerusalem in 70AD. It could be that miracles will be established again AFTER the rapture of the church. Book of Revelation mentions the 2 witnesses (during the Tribulation) working miracles, so the latter rain of the Holy Spirit COULD happen around that time AFTER the church has been raptured.

    What do you think Deborah?

  • Myfanwy Brown

    Thanks so much for looking into that Robbie! I will have a look online. It is a long story, but an old schoolfriend of mine sent me two of his books to read and when I told her we are not singing from the same hymn sheet..she cut me off. I was very heartsore as we are both from Africa, and we went to school together, we were best buds.. she moved to the USA and later I moved to SA, now living in the UK!! We had been out of contact for more than 30 years..and she does that to me?? Then I realised what was at work.. very sad.

    Thanks again!

  • Myfanwy Brown

    Debs Debs!! I have been praying for you my sweetheart..I am also being attacked from all sides.. health and other troubles! Praise God for my true Christain friends, you are my family..mine have turned against me.

    Love ya sister..keep doing the good work, you are an inspiration and a blessing to me!

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Dear Myfanwy, thank you so much! I know you are praying for me and I really appreciate it, I do. I am doing ok :) Coming back online one step at a time.

  • Dan

    Hi John, thanks for explaining it so clearly. Now I get it. So our job as christians is not to try and heal the sick and perform these mirales. It’s to live like God wants us to so that other people can see God in us. And to minister where we can?

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)


    Oh boy, you ask a question that involves some serious study and not just reading. You need to get a chain reference bible because all verses are linked together right across the bible, OT and NT. The Bible is like a big puzzle and not just a book to be read, for eg, prophecy in the OT is repeated in the NT or completed in the NT. For instance you want to study a topic, lets say, The Blood of Jesus. Go to the Topical index and search for all the places the Blood of Jesus appears, and search for those verses, and read those passages. But now there are the chain verses linked to those verses that you need to look up and read as well, so you look for those verses, ALL THE WHILE the Holy Spirit GUIDES YOU and SPEAKS TO YOU and gives you INSIGHT into what you are reading. And so you go on. While you are studying the about the Blood of Jesus, the Holy Spirit might show you something that He wants you to look up and study, something that catches you eye, and off you go studying those verses. Well that is how I started, it stated with 1 verse and branched out…

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)


    That’s it! :) If we are sick we go directly to Jesus in prayer, no middle man needed.

  • John Chingford

    Hi Dan

    You are almost right. Personally I do not discount that God still works in the miraculous because Jesus is “the same yesterday, today and forever”. The key is for believers to “abide in the vine”. Jesus said “without me you can do nothing”. That is an eternal truth. Humans can do things in their own strength but CANNOT achieve anything of eternal worth. All we can do is the physical which is temporal. Jesis (in us) can transform lives spiritually and produce fruit that lasts.

    We need to stay close to Jesus, spend time in prayer and in devotional bible study. In turn Jesus helps us to grow in grace and in the knowledge of Him. We also (in His strength) apply the Bible to our lives so that we develop our relationship with the Lord and learn how to hear the voice of the Holy Spirit. Read Hebrews 5:14 “But solid food is for the mature, who by constant use have trained themselves to distinguish good from evilJesus said “my sheep hear my voice”. He didn’t say “lambs” but “sheep” i.e mature lambs. However He did say to Peter “feed my lambs”.

    It should be the responsibility of mature sheep to teach the lambs but today there is so much apostasy with great number of wolves (not sheep)that lambs are having to feed themselves direct from Jesus.

    Remember that faith comes FROM God, not from ourselves. The Word of Faith con preachers are trying to whip up faith within ourselves by self effort. That is NOT the faith Jesus is talking about and will not result in lasting benefit. We cannot whip up faith inside us by self effort.

    The holy Spirit will grant you faith in the miraculous only when/if He wants you to do so. Until He does so it would be fruitless and damaging to expect a miracle from your own faith.

    The Word of faith group (and many others) preach to have faith in our faith. The truth is that all we need is to have faith in God. It is God who is a God of miracles. We need to believe in God that He is the one who does the miracles – not us. We can only move in the miraculous if HE grants us the faith IN HIM to do so and (as always) always check what you believe the Holy Spirit is telling you with whether it lines up with the infallible Divinely inpired Word OF God (the Bible) says.

  • Burning Lamp

    Hi John,

    I have sent you a couple of e-mails from other addresses. Let me know if they come through.


    Also Myfanwy, thanks for your faithful prayers for this ministry – praying for you also.

  • Robbie

    Myfanwy you are so welcome.

    I am the RS of A too.
    About your friend.. When it comes to truth, Jesus did not come to bring peace but a sword, to divide.
    just stay in line, we are part of prophecy :-)

  • Tarshish

    Hie Deborah,how can you know for certain that God is calling you,what are the signs?Because I believe that God is calling me into the discernment ministry but I’m just not ready for the heat and the critisicm I will get from people.I feel like I’m fleeing from God.Please Advice.Thanxs

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)


    1) Do you know the bible well? Can you answer every question that is thrown at your accurately – because God will hold you accountable.
    2) I know I am called to do this because when I am not doing this I am miserable, I feel lost, but when I am working for Him, I am being filled daily by the Holy Spirit; as the Holy Spirit works through me, I do the typing, He gives the answers that I sometimes do not know.
    3) The criticism is hard, and it takes it’s toll on me. But through prayer, God gives me the strength to carry on, and on and on.
    4) Worst is to be befriended by people who are wolves, but they lie making you think everything is ok, when deep down you know it isn’t and then when you expose them….that is the worst.

  • Hanelie

    John Chingford wrote:

    We need to stay close to Jesus, spend time in prayer and in devotional bible study. In turn Jesus helps us to grow in grace and in the knowledge of Him. We also (in His strength) apply the Bible to our lives so that we develop our relationship with the Lord and learn how to hear the voice of the Holy Spirit.

    Oh, yes!! I read this with such joy, because it is what God has been reminding me of over and over again the past few weeks. And, here I get it again today.

    Remember that faith comes FROM God, not from ourselves. The Word of Faith con preachers are trying to whip up faith within ourselves by self effort. That is NOT the faith Jesus is talking about and will not result in lasting benefit. We cannot whip up faith inside us by self effort.

    If we look around us (especially in “organised church”), we’ll see how we’re being pulled away from away from a relationship with Christ constantly, making Christianity just another works-based religion. It can seem so right – so in line with what we had been “taught” in church, which makes it incredibly deceptive and very dangerous. I think it is really one of the areas where we all have to pray for discernment very day.

  • Tarshish

    Thanks Deborah you are doing a great job.I was once trapped deep in the deception of Pentecostalism but God set me free and made me realize the truth.Your site as well as other sites like this helped me lots in my search for the truth.It was hard leaving Pentecostalism,but its now over a year and by the grace of God I have recovered from the deep wounds I was given by those merciless wolves.It hurts knowing that you were deceived, It hurts knowing that you wasted your time and effort furthering the devil’s agenda while you thought you were furthering God’s agenda, It hurts knowing that you were used by the devil and you led some people deep into the devil’s net.At the time I left I was really angry and hurt and everything seemed meaningless.I thank God because he was with me all the time and he healed my heart and added purpose to my life. I believe God is calling me to expose those ravening wolves in sheep’s clothing.They are really deceiving many people,and once you are under their power,its really hard to leave.I like your statement “Worst is to be befriended by people who are wolves, but they lie making you think everything is ok, when deep down you know it isnt and then when you expose them.that is the worst.”.Thanks for the advice

  • Redeemed

    Tarshish, there is no doubt that the call to alert the Church and exposee the deeds of darkness and the wolves that are ravaging the Church is a very difficult and challenging one.

    It might be helpful to you to read about Jeremiah, the weeping prophet and also the others whom God called to declare His truth. The office of prophet ceased and is no longer in operation today, but their spirit is in operation today and the gifting is so vital to the health of the Church.

    Along with it goes a great deal of rejection and even hatred, but this is the case of all God’s truth – it is often not readily received. But there will be some that will welcome it as a drink of water in a desert.

    That ministry is a lonely walk, just as it was with Jeremiah and his counterparts. But our Lord walked a lonely path and was rejected. The most important thing is obedience to what God has called you to do. As Deborah says, the test is that “fire in the bones” that Jeremiah speaks about. There is no peace if it does not get expressed. Fear comes from the enemy and you can expect attacks and opposition. But again, obedience to God’s call is paramount and wisdom is needed to determine the certainty of that call. There is no doubt that it is needed.

    When you expose a popular teacher who tickles the ears, it will most likely be viewed as being critical and you most likely will be misunderstood. Just as some have accused Deborah of jealousy when exposing Joyce Meyers. She has to allow that to roll off like water on a duck’s back. Only God can give the strength to do that.

    Be careful that you speak the truth in love and that you get your facts straight. And be sure you are grounded in sound doctrine including eschatology. Beware of the error of Calvinist/Reformed doctrine that is being promoted even by so-called “discernment” ministries. Satan will try to trip you up and you will be a prime target. But remember, He Who is in you is so much greater than the enemy. Don’t depend upon your flesh – it will fail you.

    May the Lord grant you wisdom and make His calling for your life clear.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)


    >> It hurts knowing that you were deceived, It hurts knowing that you wasted your time and effort furthering the devils agenda while you thought you were furthering Gods agenda

    It does hurt, but you know what… THANK JESUS for showing you the truth :) because now you know! Millions of others don’t. See what you went through as a lesson in life that God allowed to happen because He would use you one day to help people escape out of what you went through. If you want to do what I am doing, you don’t need to have a comments section, you can just write articles based on biblical truths.

  • edddycs

    @Debbie ,not nice sounds like you are under attack this has happened more than once.
    You also need a succession plan (back up).But well done and chin up.

  • Dan

    Thanks John, much appreciated.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)


    >> not nice sounds like you are under attack this has happened more than once.

    Nope, this is something I have had since birth and its gotten worse since I’ve grown OLDer lol. I deal with my ailments and Jesus gives me the strength to pull through every time.

    I have thought about a back up plan many a time, the last time I gave people access to my website; their mission was to take it over (they were under cover Calvinists conning me big time), anyhow, I will ask around my trusted neighborhood and see what I cam come up with :)

  • Redeemed

    edddycs, you have picked up on how difficult a ministry that doing a site like this is and Deborah presses on as best she can despite the obstacles. She has been betrayed by those she trusted. I don’t know of a discernment ministry that has a “backup” plan in the event of their illness or demise for whatever reason. There are so many wolves and clever deceivers.

    Those who are on the “front lines” of discernment need prayer support but so seldom get it because people are so few and far between who understand the importance of the ministry and how critical the need for intercessory prayer.

    Those who have frequented this blog for any time know that when there is a hiatus it is probably due to illness and that should prompt us to lift Deborah up in prayer.

  • edddycs

    @Redeemed, i agree and i encourage you all who are faithful The Lord always has a plan,and he provides a way and or a person.
    I do find this site a ‘coal face site’ in time to come it will be a ‘go to jail or deny site”
    I am also an “outcast” in my community to the “christian hood” as they do not like to read and understand the bible for what it is – there has to be a way to make money out of it and also to gain self glorification.
    @ Debbie you need only make an admin appointment so that the conversation continues you need not give total control.
    This is going to sound radical but I would like to see local leaders who talk and preach another Christ also exposed here,and the money beggars,like local AOG South Africa.
    Allan Bagg Bay Church, and so on.

  • Hanelie

    Reading some of the above, I was suddenly reminded of something I read in a sermon (about the Beatitudes) recently. I’m not sure if it will have nearly the same impact quoted out of context, but I am going to try anyway. Talking about the first Beatitude, he he quotes Leonard Ravenhill’s definition what it is to be poor of Spirit and thus approved of by God: ‘This is a man who has no ambitions, and therefore he has nothing to be jealous about. This is a man who has no reputation, like the Lord Jesus Christ himself – bless His name – therefore he has nothing to fight about. This man has no possessions, so he has nothing to worry about. He has no rights, therefore he suffers any wrongs. He’s already dead, therefore no-one can kill him’.

    Being so different is no easy task and certainly is something we can only do with the help of the Holy Spirit. It really is dying to self. The quote above is a striking description and highlights just what it is we are called to do, but at the same is quite a comfort to me. Isn’t this freedom? And peace – to trust God as my judge.

  • Rista

    Hi, maybe there is someone who also visit this site who can help. I am looking for a church – even if it is a homechurch – in the Paarl or Northern suburbs of Cape Town areas where I can have fellowship with other discerning believers. A church that uses the Bible as the only book for everything they believe, as guidance for the way we are supposed to live and who measure other books against the Bible before suggesting it as reading\study material. A church that do not molly-coddle its people but do the straight talk thing when necessary without caring whether whomever feel the sting of the words will leave the church and take their money with them. I’ve left the church I grew up in after I discussed my concerns with the leaders and they felt that my concerns was ‘taking things too far’ and told me that I may not judge. I really miss the company of people who feel and uderstand the way I do about the Lord, His Word and the price He paid for us. I am so tired of hearing the ‘Yes, BUTs . . .’ that cater for our carnal selves and make excuses for us to keep living the way we do after we are born again because the true way is too ‘harsh’ and ‘judgmental’.

    Tnx and God bless!

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)


    >> Leonard Ravenhills definition what it is to be poor of Spirit and thus approved of by God: This is a man who has no ambitions, and therefore he has nothing to be jealous about. This is a man who has no reputation, like the Lord Jesus Christ himself bless His name therefore he has nothing to fight about. This man has no possessions, so he has nothing to worry about. He has no rights, therefore he suffers any wrongs. Hes already dead, therefore no-one can kill him.

    Leonard Ravenhills definition of being poor in spirit is wrong…

    Jesus is speaking of being poor in spirit; i.e., being SPIRITUALLY poor. Jesus is only interested in our spiritual realities not with material possessions, etc.

    Matt 5:3 Blessed are the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

    To be poor in spirit is to recognize your utter spiritual sinful nature before God. It is understanding that you have absolutely nothing of worth to offer God. Being poor in spirit is admitting that, because of your sin, you are completely spiritually destitute and can do nothing to deliver yourself from your dire situation; hence you need Jesus Christ as your Saviour. Jesus is saying that, no matter your status in life, rich, poor or middle class for that matter, you must recognize your spiritual poverty before you can come to God in faith to receive the salvation He offers.

    I dunno who this Leonard Ravenhill guy is, but clearly he lost the plot on that one. His definition sounds quite socialistic.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)


    I will give your email address to someone down that side of the world, I hope he can help you.

  • Hanelie

    Oh no! That’s why I said I was worried that it might not work out of context! Because that is exactly what it was about – being aware of your utter sinfulness and that there is nothing you can bring to God to earn salvation. I’ve seen so many incorrect uses of the phrase “poor in spirit”, that it was really a great joy to find someone explaining it like this … and I was just as excited now to see you giving the exact same description. :D

    The pastor used Ravenhill’s definition to make it practical in a different way, to bring it home, or to illustrate something of we as Christians live in the world as a result of this. I did not see (because of the context in which it was used) any reference to material wealth in it. I read in it instead something about a way of thinking, and a way of being – not to having or not having material possessions, but rather to your relationship with them. It is not about me, my possessions, my ambitions, my good name, but about God. So, when people call me names because of what I believe, it’s not about me; I don’t have to protect myself, because it is about something bigger than me. Not sure if that makes sense.

    This is how this pastor summarizes the first three beatitudes:
    1. the first is about understanding your utter sinfulness (intellectually)
    2. the second is about that intellectual understanding moving to your heart and becoming an emotion
    3. the third is about being okay with others knowing that about you

    So it is knowing that we are sinners (unable to help ourselves), mourning the fact that we are sinners and being willing to be seen as sinners. I found it quite a powerful way of thinking about it.

  • Hanelie

    Oops, I should have added that I was a sloppy in how I posted that quote. The pastor never said that Ravenhill’s words was a definition for being poor in spirit! I just checked. I started typing a longer post – in shortening it, I didn’t really think it through and the meaning got changed. Sorry. :(

    Of course, you are right, it is NOT a definition of being poor in Spirit. I don’t know in what context it was used originally, but here it was used in reference to Paul’s words in 1 Cor 4:13:

    1 Corinthians chapter 4 and verse 13, I want you to see this, Paul the apostle – he says this is the secret: ‘Being defamed, we entreat: we are made as the filth of the world, and are the offscouring of all things unto this day’ – who’s he talking about? The filth of the world – if someone came up to you, or was in the prayer meeting and you heard them praying ‘the filth of the world’ you’d think they were describing the sin of the world, or perhaps the sinners of the world. But Paul uses this word and that’s not what he’s describing as filth of the world, or offscouring, he’s describing himself! He reckons himself as the filth of the world – if I can say it, the scum of the world – why? Because he is willing to be reckoned a fool for Christ, because he reckons himself nothing, because he’s poor in spirit.

    Leonard Ravenhill said: ‘This is a man who has no ambitions, and therefore he has nothing to be jealous about. This is a man who has no reputation, like the Lord Jesus Christ himself – bless His name – therefore he has nothing to fight about. This man has no possessions, so he has nothing to worry about. He has no rights, therefore he suffers any wrongs. He’s already dead, therefore no-one can kill him’. My friend, this is beautiful: he is the scum of the world for Christ.

    You see now why it made me think of recent posts here. :)

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)


    That makes more sense!! :) I retract my comment about Leonard Ravenhill.

  • Rista

    Tnx Deborah, appreciate! 8^)

  • Bettye

    What about 119 Ministeries?? Their website is Anyone know about this?

    [EDITED by DTW – Bettye, I moved this from the Chuck Missler article to the General conversation topic :)]

  • Osito

    Hi Deborah,

    Do any-one of you know what is this IFCC INDABA?

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)



    At the IFCC National Pastors Conference August 2010 it became evident that there was an
    urgent need to re-examine the structures of the IFCC which seemed to have lost its
    effectiveness! Structures should never inhibit, stifle growth and progress as they are here to
    serve us. The challenge we are facing is to get back to the cutting edge of what God wants
    to say and do!

    Eighteen years ago the IFCC was in a similar situation when structural changes had to take
    place to embrace political changes to become relevant and be on the cutting edge of Gods
    purposes. We called a Bosberaad of the then existent leadership to seek the way forward.
    At this meeting a parting of ways took place, and the IFCC was changed from a Fellowship
    to a Federation. Many left the IFCC, struggling to embrace the changes that needed to take
    place in our Churches
    with a proper representation in the leadership of the IFCC.

    In the last 18 years the IFCC has been socially significant as our Churches sought to become
    effective in their communities. The IFCC became a prophetic voice in our communities as
    well as nationally on the political front. There were only a few mega churches at the time,
    whereas today, there are many. The uniqueness in which the IFCC churches grew was a far
    better representation embracing people from all cultural groups. Our Churches found a way
    to love and accept one another in Christ, which brought great healing amongst people.
    In the midst of the above we have somehow lost our prophetic edge and are not being as
    relevant as we should and could be. It is for this reason that a need has arisen to seek the
    Lord to lead us into a new dispensation. The time has come for the Church to once again be
    the prophetic voice in our nation, leading the way in righteousness and giving direction on
    critical issues irrespective of the response!

    At this Indaba the IFCC must be courageous in discussing the necessary structural changes
    in order to facilitate a greater harvest. The IFCC requires a leadership that is committed to
    each other in love, accountability, respect and embracing our differences while looking to
    Jesus Christ to bring revival in our time. This way we can confidently hand over the baton to
    the next generation knowing that we have finished the work Jesus has given us!

    ? The IFCC is an International Federation of Christian Churches and/or Ministries who
    believes that the Holy Scriptures have sole authority on all matters of faith and their
    interpretation. This is commonly known as Evangelical as contra-distinguished from the
    Unitarian and Roman Catholic interpretations.

    ? Federation is understood to mean a system of government wherein a group of selfgoverning or autonomous churches/ministries unite and associate for certain specified
    mutually beneficial functions and purposes. In so doing, the churches/ministries agree to
    cede, assign and/or waive certain limited aspects of their independence or autonomy to
    enjoy the greater benefits of the federation, in this case the IFCC.

    ? The Churches in IFCC and the Church plant action has grown phenomenally. This requires us
    to re-visit the present IFCC structures and make the necessary changes to continue the
    phenomenal growth, church plant action and fulfill our responsibility in the Great

    This is nothing but Rick Warrens Purpose Driven Church and New Apostolic Reformation / Latter Rain (Dominionism) in action It would appear this FEDERATION has been spearheading the church in the anti-Christs direction for some time now. What interests me is that many people found that what they want to do unacceptable and left their ‘fellowship’…. “Many left the IFCC, struggling to embrace the changes that needed to take place in our Churches” just shows you that what ever their game plan is it is NOT Biblical.

  • Marion

    Bettye…from what I can see, they are “Hebrew Roots” cult…watched a couple of their videos…they recommend the works of someone named Michael Rood. You can find info about him and what he teaches here:

    (use of any link is not an endorsement of any site – informational only)

    [EDITED by DTW – Marion, I moved this from the Chuck Missler article to the General conversation topic :)]

  • Hanelie

    Different topic: A brief word of warning to anyone who have young children/teenagers re the movie “Brave”.

    I actually hold the view that pretty much everything that comes from Hollywood is to be frowned upon. Yet, in an unguarded moment, I allowed my daughter to go see “Brave”. Upon returning home, she very quickly told me that she felt uncomfortable in the movie because it had a witch. That night, she woke from a nightmare (when she gets nightmares or unexplained headaches, it usually is a sign of exposure to some form of occultic elements).

    The next day, we worked through the Christian armour again, and we talked through the event, also what to do should she ever find herself in a similar situation in future. I was amazed at her spiritual insight as we talked through the movie, and really glad that she picked up the problem with it immediately. A very good friend (of similar Christian views as ours), the same night, made the same mistake.

    I learned again that we cannot let our guard down, not even for a moment.

  • Bettye

    Oh my… Wow was I ever off… Thank You so much.. I will get the hang of researching stuff on the internet.. Again thank you for your discernment..

    [EDITED by DTW – Bettye, I moved this from the Chuck Missler article to the General conversation topic :)]

  • Osito

    Hi Deborah,

    Sorry but i lost the privelage of asking question when i was at crc, so if i ask to many question just tell me to slow down. I can see on this site you answer a lot of question and it must be a lot of work. When i aksed the people at crc something it took them +- 4 months to came back with a stupit answer.

    Rick warrens has he anything to do with the IFCC? Becuase i see crc is also now part leader of the IFCC.

  • Bettye

    I love the fact I know have people to bounce things off of… I hear a lot about Jesus coming to fulfill the law but not to get rid of it. And I have heard that we should still be honoring the Sabbath just like we still try to follow the other of the ten commandments. I was not raised that way at all (raised IFB) and wouldn’t even know how to start. If we don’t have to, then why not… I don’t mean like going to church on Saturday but trying to honor it the way the bible portraits.

    [EDITED by DTW – Bettye, I moved this from the Chuck Missler article to the General conversation topic :)]

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Hi Bettye

    Please read this article to explain the Sabbath day. You can read all the comments as well if you want. WARNING: SDA Evangelistic Drive, AMAZING DISCOVERIES 2010 @ Mosaic Theatre (10 Nov 4 Dec) it explains how we as born again Christians view the Sabbath day.

  • Alf Hutchison

    Deborah may I ask all of you on this site a Question please is for a study I am doing …”What day was Jesus crucified on”?… Let us for the moment agree to disagree n the timing of the rapture …

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)


    The Bible does not exactly state on which day of the week Jesus was crucified. There are two most held views, the one being that he was crucified Friday, the other on Wednesday. Some, others say it was actually Thursday.

    To be honest, it does not effect me as to what day Jesus was crucified on, what does effect me is that He was crucified and His shed blood washed away my sins :)

    I have noticed that Calvinists have this ‘thing’ about trying to figure out what day Jesus was crucified on… are you a Calvinist?

  • Alf Hutchison

    [deleted by DTW – I have decided to delete all your comments Alf, sorry please do not comment again, they will be deleted!]

  • Alf Hutchison

    To answer your question I am A Baptist Deborah… originally Methodist.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)


    If you know, then why ask? You said…”it is for a study I am doing?” But you seem to know the answer, so why ask? Hmm?

  • John Chingford

    John said: Of course Alf is a Calvinist. Mick is clearly looking to Alf for support of his Calvinistic Augustinian Church fathers viewpoint. As I pointed out on
    Calvinists/Catholics are wrong because they base their theology on the teachers who Paul warned about in Acts 20:30:

    “Even from your own number men will arise and distort the truth in order to draw away disciples after them. So be on your guard! Remember that for three years I never stopped warning each of you night and day with tears.”

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Baptists/Calvinists – samething…

  • Myfanwy Brown

    Debs, the reason Alf is asking is because he thinks he can ‘catch you out’ somehow. This is Alf Hutchison’s MO I am afraid to say! I would not even go there if I were you Alf, you are wasting your time. The real truth is spoken on this site, and Debs, John, BL and others here are full of wisdom and discernment. You won’t get away with trying to flog your false teachings on DTW!!

  • Redeemed

    Alf, do you mind my asking which “flavor” of Baptist you are? There are many varieties of Baptist. Thanks.

  • Redeemed

    To answer Alfs question and one has to wonder just why he is bringing this up out of the blue, but it is an important question because it relates to the fulfillment of prophecy concerning our Lord. Churches commonly celebrate Good Friday and this is really inaccurate. It is true that the most important thing is to recognize why the Lord died and was sacrificed for us.

    A Friday crucifixion would not allow the days necessary for Christ to be in the grave until His resurrection on Sunday morning. Jesus said the Scripture must be fulfilled, all things are written in the law and the prophets about Him and must be fulfilled. It was written that He would be 3 days and 3 nights in the grave. There is no way to get 3 nights from a Friday afternoon crucifixion, Friday night-Saturday night, to a Sunday morning resurrection. John Chapter 19, says that Jesus was on the cross at the very time that the Passover lambs were being slain. It was the 10th of Nissan when they took the lambs out of the flock and observed them for 4 days to make sure they were without spot and blemish and acceptable for sacrifice. Exodus 12:6, very clearly says:
    6 Now you shall keep it until the fourteenth day of the same month. Then the whole assembly of the congregation of Israel shall kill it at twilight.

    He rode into Jerusalem on the 10th of Nissan, just as Zechariah 9:9 foretells, on what we observe as Palm Sunday.

    Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion!
    Shout, O daughter of Jerusalem!
    Behold, your King is coming to you;
    He is just and having salvation,
    Lowly and riding on a donkey,
    A colt, the foal of a donkey.

    The Word says the Lamb had to be slain on the 14th day of the month. If Jesus is going to be who He claimed to be, thats going to be on Thursday, the 14th, Palm Sunday is the 10th, the 14th is Thursday, and He was crucified when the lambs were being slain. He was in the grave 3 nightsThursday, Friday, Saturday and the days of Friday, Saturday and part of Sunday, exactly as the Bible said.

    Its very important that the Scriptures be fulfilled. The Jewish leaders said that they had to take Jesus down from the cross because the Sabbath was imminent. This is where there is often confusion. It was not the regular Saturday Sabbath. 19:31 says, Therefore, because it was the Preparation Day, that the bodies should not remain on the cross on the Sabbath (for that Sabbath was a high day), the Jews asked Pilate that their legs might be broken, and that they might be taken away.

    It was a special Sabbath, observed every 7 years, not the regular Saturday Sabbath. Thursday afternoon, they would call it before sundown would be evening, the lambs were slain. Then, after sundown they were roasted with fire and the Passover observed. That is the first day of a 7-day Feast of Unleavened Bread, it is a High Sabbath. It was a High Sabbath, a special Sabbath, and the next day was another Sabbath, Saturday.

    I dont know how Alf comes up with Christ being crucified on the 13th day of the month because that would contradict what the Bible says.

    Scriptures from NKJV

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)


    Yes, I figured this out, hence I am deleting all his comments.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)


    Yes, there are soooooo many types of Baptists. Alf did reply (which I deleted) and say he was not Calvinist, but then to be honest I don’t think he knows what he believes to be honest. One thing we do know is that he preaches doctrines that are off the charts heretical and totally antisemetic. So can we believe him when he says he does not hold to Calvinist teachings? Me thinks not.

  • Alf Hutchison


  • Alf Hutchison


  • Alf Hutchison


  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Alf Hutchinson

    Yes Alf, the evil doctrines you preach are PATHETIC.

  • Hanelie

    I have a question (and a few vaguely/unrelated points sparked by some of the conversation here and elsewhere on this blog): what does the term ‘evangelical’ refer to. I have searched this site and found many references to it, but no definition. I ‘googled’ it as well, found theological / linguistic definitions, but that’s not what I am looking for.

    That made me think that a list of terms and ‘definitions’ (all the words I come across here … emergent, baptist, calvinist etc.), would be nice, but it would become very long very quickly, I am afraid. :)

    I followed the conversation about Halloween (not a tradition that has really caught on where I am before, but it is starting to rear its ugly head here now, with halloween fun runs etc.) Equally worrisome to me is what happens with Christmas and Easter. Neither are Christian celebrations, although many people are fooled to think they are. And in these cases, they (including their completely pagan rituals such as easter eggs and bunnies, christmass trees and santa claus etc.) are celebrated by and in churches!

    Lastly, re the above: we know that we will be persecuted (harassed, ill-treated, etc.)if we really follow Jesus. Let’s hold on to Mat 5 – blessed are those that are persecuted for the sake of His name.

  • Sherry B.

    Deborah-I’ve been a Christian for almost 40 years, and EVERY “teacher”. “pastor”, “writer” I ever followed has managed to fall by the wayside in big ways. I have come to see that they are indeed “ministers of Satan” who appeared to be preachers of righteousness for this very time we live in. I appreciate anyone who is a true Berean, because the Word of God and His Holy Spirit are the ONLY guides we need when it comes to the Truth. Thank you for fighting the good fight! Just want to encourage you in your work.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Thank you Sherry B!

  • Redeemed

    Sherry B., I would like to clarify one thing about your last statement. God did give the gift of teaching for the benefit of the Church. I have been a believer for going on 60 years, (not that we’re competing, LOL) and I have seen more of them come and go, especially in the last 10 years or so. Some whom I considered solid Bible teachers. What they taught then WAS solid and Spirit-led, but then they let in some leaven and that leaven grew and tainted their ministry and I had to cross them off my list.

    As time went on, I found that I benefited from what I lovingly call “the dead guys”, those who are what they were and the work they left is solid. I have friends who have become disgusted by false teachers and have taken to studying the Word and have decided to entertain no teachings whatsoever. Two of them have concluded from their studies done in isolation that the pre-trib rapture is false doctrine! I have seen others I don’t know personally but have so-called discernment blogs fall into the same trap. I’m not saying that God cannot reveal the Bible to those in isolation, but when good teaching is available, I believe it is there for a purpose. Now we must be good Bereans and listen to the Holy Spirit to discern. But a good expositor of the Word can be very helpful, especially in explaining passages that can be difficult. Would you agree?

  • Redeemed

    Hanelie, yes some of those terms that get thrown around can be confusing and they mean different things to different people considering the context in which they are used.

    Many people and organizations call themselves “evangelical” but in fact they are not. Evangelical to me means that the focus is on evangelism, sharing the Gospel of Christ, fulfilling the Great Commission. Now there are many activities being done today and described as “evangelical” but they preach a compromised Gospel. A true evangelical will preach the true Gospel and then provide for new converts to be established in the truth and discipled. That is the full intent of the Great Commission.

    Af to Calvinism/Reformed, that is simple. A belief based on TULIP or any part thereof. One can look up what TULIP means and it will be apparent. I think Deborah has done a great job of exposing Calvinism on this blog.

  • Hanelie

    Thank you, Redeemed. I used to think that all these terms (and what people call themselves) didn’t matter. I no know better. What you call yourself says a lot of who you are and want others to think you are. And understanding what things like the Emergent Church movement, NAR, Calvinism etc is an dis about, helps one to understand what you are seeing and spot the deception.

    What you said above about teachers is really sad, but it is what we have been warned about. Luckily we have the best helper in the Holy Spirit. We recently had such a case with a speaker at the school my daughter goes to. One mother did a bit of research, and warned the rest of us. During my own research on the speaker (who had, on occasion, preached to the church I used to attend), I couldn’t miss the liberal trade marks of the Emergent movement. We learned form this that we need to be far more “vigilant”, not trusting the school’s choices because we trust/like the teachers organised the event.

  • Sherry B.

    Redeemed- Yes, I do agree that a good expositor of God’s Word can be very helpful. However, I am NOT finding any today, as they all seem to slip in that tiny bit of heresy that might go unnoticed if one does not read/listen very carefully. The truly Godly teachers are dead-this I agree.

    As to people who’ve come to the conclusion that there will be no pre-trib rapture by studying on their own, they are either of that persuasion already, read/listened to too many false teachers today, or they are not looking for the places where it is mentioned directly, indirectly in the New Testament, or by “types” in the Old Testament.

    Our faith in anything that God has said or done in His Word is that precious gold He so values in His people. Everything we do, say, and believe must be based on His Holy Word and His Holy character as He has shown in His Word. I do not understand all of His Word, but I believe it because He has said it. One thing that has helped me is to daily ask for HIS wisdom, discernment, and understanding, and as James says, He will gladly give these things to those who but ask, with no reproof.

    The apostasy today is meant for the time we are living in. It is also a TEST for God’s people to truly believe only in Him and in His Word. It’s extremely hard to live in this world full of deception and liars, and Jesus Christ and His Word are the refuge for those who would live Godly in Him. I give unbelievers a “pass” because they know not what they do. But to those who deliberately deceive while pretending to be “of God”, there is no pass nor any redemption, and Jude nailed it as to their end.

    You and I are “old warriors” in God, and I never “compete” with any true fellow Christan-LOL! Rather, I believe we “sharpen” one another in our faith in Him and in His Word. Contending for the faith is a JOY to me, as I sense it is for you and Deborah and others.

  • Dan

    I’m keeping a close eye on this event – Austere Challenge 2012. America IN Israel with lots of loaded guns.

    [Edited by DTW: added link:

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)


    “If you have ever doubted the truly satanic essence of the infamous Lady Gaga, then you need look no further than her new perfume, which is expected to debut this fall. According to the Boston Globe and various other sources, the new Gaga scent, known as Fame, was created using a sample of Gagas own blood, as well as semen from another unknown donor. The blend apparently also contains a highly-toxic plant extract that is known to kill humans.

    It could all just be one big demonic publicity stunt to market the ugly black liquid packaged in an alien-like, egg-shaped bottle held by what appear to be slender claws. But several sources confirm that Gaga literally used her own DNA to create the scent, which included offering up a blood sample that was actually added to the fragrance batch. Where the alleged semen came from, though, is still unknown.

    We are definitely in the days of Noah. What’s next…

  • Redeemed

    Just when one thinks that Lady Gaga could not get more wicked…….this is beyond disgusting. What a depraved soul.

  • Myfanwy Brown

    Debs, this is an interesting article on sport from that site. Post if you like : )

  • Michael

    When I read the topics posted on DTW one thing stands out above all…in that it is a contest between truth and lies.

    Also what stands out is the love and inclination that human flesh is drawn by a force towards lies. Sin has it roots in lies…Satan’s deception in the garden of Eden…subtle suggestion and reason…”Now the serpent was more subtle than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, has God said, you shall not eat of every tree of the garden?” Gen 3:1.

    The discerning that Debs does is a huge contribution towards Christians getting back on track…yes it will cause disunity but who wants unity without the security and foundation of truth. Even interpretation if it’s only 1% wrong can be dangerous…but the deceivers purposely mix truth with error and create confusion.

    The bottom line is…get truly saved with repentance…turn…die to the old self and ACCEPT the Lord Jesus’s dying on the cross for your sins…then read your bible for spiritual food and guidance…Jesus promised He will send the Holy Spirit (the Comforter) to help you.

  • Myfanwy Brown

    Debs did you get around to reading the link I posted above? If you did, are you unhappy with what it says?

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)


    No sorry, I forgot to approve your comment. I didn’t read the article in it’s entirety..

  • Myfanwy Brown

    No worries, read it when you can.. I would rather you read it before approving it : )

  • Micheline

    Hi Debs,
    I use the “Life Application Bible”. I bought it many years ago to assist me with passages I didn’t understand as it has explanations of the verses on each page.
    Is this Bible a good one to have?

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)


    Hmmmm, you know what, I do not think it is good to have a bible with commentaries because THEY give you their opinion of what the verse means. Instead use a normal bible and when you stumble upon a verse you don’t understand, use the internet to go and so a search for the what it means… then at least you will get a whole lot of ‘opinions’ as to what it means… but out of all those webpages 1 is bound to be correct, and that is the one that HOLY SPIRIT will tell you is correct :) Make sense? So you are not stuck to your Life Application Bible’s version…

  • Micheline

    Thank You Debs, much appreciated.

  • Rob Diamond

    Hi all.

    I am Rob Diamond and I live in Colorado. I just have a short observation to make following the elections. I see some states have passed same sex marriage and here in Colorado an amendment about being able to use marijuana was passed. It is just more of the same type of stuff which brings down judgment upon us.

    Isnt it ironic that the recent storm was named SANDY? It is like the Lord is saying you have build your house upon the sand instead of the rock. so many peoples lives are not built on Jesus Christ, the solid rock.

    This election shows people are building their lives upon the sand and a big judgment storm is on it’s way.

    I pray for mercy, dear Lord.

    Rob Diamond

  • Noelene

    I have just got through your article on the alpha course and found it ver informative. I attended an alpha course 13 years ago and God saved me on that very course. My life has never been the same…….but do I advise others not to attend the course????????

  • Micheline

    I have a question, if I may:

    What is the human being’s purpose on earth?

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)


    1) Accept Jesus as your Saviour
    2) Preach the gospel as best as you can with the gifts that the Holy Spirit given you.

    Rick Warren’s purposes all revolve around YOURSELF.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)


    >> I attended an alpha course 13 years ago and God saved me on that very course.

    Were you slain in the spirit? What doctrine do you follow; Assemblies of God, Full Gospel, Apostolic, etc?

    >> but do I advise others not to attend the course????????

    No, I would not advise others to attend.

  • Micheline

    Thank you for your answer.

    The reason I asked this, is because I want to discuss this issue with my teenagers. As I was a teenager ‘once’, I remember the feelings I had towards following God….you know “Ag, if we follow Jesus there will be no more fun with our friends, no parties….actually, we can’t do what we want”.

    I want to explain to them that following Jesus does not take away the fun stuff in life. As peer pressure is such a big thing, as is fitting in, following Jesus might not be the number one thing on their list. I know they know and love Jesus, we brought them up that way, but that is just it – they were brought up that way – it hasn’t been an act of self discovery yet.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)


    >> The reason I asked this, is because I want to discuss this issue with my teenagers. As I was a teenager once, I remember the feelings I had towards following know Ag, if we follow Jesus there will be no more fun with our friends, no parties.actually, we cant do what we want.

    I can only pray for you Micheline.

    >> I want to explain to them that following Jesus does not take away the fun stuff in life. As peer pressure is such a big thing, as is fitting in, following Jesus might not be the number one thing on their list. I know they know and love Jesus, we brought them up that way, but that is just it they were brought up that way it hasnt been an act of self discovery yet.

    I know what I was like as a teenager and I gave my parents hell. I landed up in the occult for about 17 years. But it was through my mothers constant prayer and nagging at me ‘about Jesus’ in my younger years, that at the age of 30 cried out at the top of my voice, tears streaming down my face for Jesus Christ to save me. I repented of every single sin, changed my wicked ways and Jesus saved me, washed me in His precious Blood and delivered me from all Satanic bondage.

    Prayer Micheline, is the biggest weapon you have to fight the enemy, and because Jesus has conquered Satan already, all you need to do is remain firm and pray for your kids, DAY and NIGHT that no harm comes to them, that they hear the Holy Spirit’s calling (that they feel convicted) and that they turn their lives over to Jesus completely. Keep praying and keep speaking to them, even when they tell you to go away!!

    They must understand that when they give their lives to Jesus 100% all of a sudden the world seems very very worthless, and they wont even want to attend parties because Jesus opens their eyes to the evil, and they wont want to be partakers of this evil.

  • Aliki

    hi Debs, found a questionaire regarding Catholicism’s evangelization this morning and was wondering wheter you had seen it. Says it all.

  • Micheline

    Debs, only saw this now. Thank you for the advise.

    You said: “They must understand that when they give their lives to Jesus 100% all of a sudden the world seems very very worthless, and they wont even want to attend parties because Jesus opens their eyes to the evil, and they wont want to be partakers of this evil.”…HOW TRUE IS THIS!!!!!

    We have a year-end party coming up with clients, and I soooooo don’t want to go….for the first time in my life I feel like this.

    Another question: How do I explain the truth to a person who doubts that there is anything after death? Then ontop of it all, he believes that mere humans wrote the Bible and there could be mistakes. Can you direct me to an article or something that he can read….I don’t want to confuse him even more.

  • sue

    I saw this article this morning in a local newspaper. I think this young man shows a lot of courage.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    @ Riaan Kasselman: test test test

  • Micheline

    Debs and all DTW-ers,

    We have the list of all the “baddies” to avoid. Yet it seems that Christian Bookshops only sell the “baddies'” books.

    My I ask for any suggestions on good books to buy. I would love to give my family good and wholesome reading material…the-TRUTH-and-nothing-but-the-TRUTH-books.

    Can we have a list of “The Good Ones”?
    (P.S if there is such a list on DTW, I have missed it and do apologize)

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)


    You know, I actually don’t have a list of good people because I honestly do all my studying out of the Bible – the best authors ever :) However I was introduced to Dr Henry Ironside. Someone was kind enough to send me a parcel with a whole lot of his books and they are fantastic. The Holy Spirit confirms for me that what he says (so far what I have read) is the truth. Then there is also Dave Hunt from the Berean Call.

    Other than that, please just try read your bible instead and ask the Holy Spirit to teach you as you are reading the Bible. He will illuminate things for you and give you understanding that you never had before.

  • Redeemed

    Re: #177 – Sue

    Here is the rest of the story regarding Angus T Jones.
    He has backtracked on his statement in deference to his role on the 2 & 1/2 Men and their producers, etc.
    Also, here is part 2 of his video showing that he is one confused young man.
    He is sucked into 7th Day Adventism.
    But reportedly he is returning to the sitcom next year.

  • Spencer

    Greetings to Deborah and others..

    So much content, so much to review. But so glad I made it over to this page. Thanks for the referral from the ‘other’ page… I’ll hold any comment or questions until I have a chance to go through all the content here…

    God Bless everyone…

  • Aliki

    Hi Debs, I would appreciate if you and the rest of the team would elucidate me on the following: luke 10:17 – 23 With special reference to v 18. Thank you

  • Redeemed

    @ Aliki:
    There are two possible trains of thought on this portion of Scripture and both may be correct.

    Jesus’ words to those He had sent out may have been a warning not to be prideful after they had experienced victory over demons. Pride is what caused the fall of Lucifer/Satan.

    Also, the final fall of Satan is yet to come when Michael and his angels deal with him. (Rev. 12:7-9) during the Great Tribulation.

    Not sure what prompted your question, but hope this helps.

  • Daniel Russell

    [delete – Dan I am not sure what you are trying to say, it just looks like you have copied and pasted from a book, ask a general question instead]

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)


    Aliki I am going to quote Dr Henry Ironside on this one, because it’s easier for him to explain than me :)

    Hi Debs, I would appreciate if you and the rest of the team would elucidate me on the following: luke 10:17 23 With special reference to v 18. Thank you

    Aliki I am going to quote Dr Henry Ironside on this one, because it’s easier for him to explain than me :)

    Luke 10:1-24
    1 After this the Lord appointed seventy-two others and sent them on ahead of him two by two into every town and place where he himself was about to go.
    2 He said to them, The harvest is plentiful, but the workers are few. Therefore ask the Lord of the harvest to send out workers into his harvest.
    3 Go! I am sending you out like lambs surrounded by wolves.
    4 Do not carry a money bag, a travelers bag, or sandals, and greet no one on the road.
    5 Whenever you enter a house, first say, May peace be on this house!
    6 And if a peace-loving person is there, your peace will remain on him, but if not, it will return to you.
    7 Stay in that same house, eating and drinking what they give you, for the worker deserves his pay. Do not move around from house to house.
    8 Whenever you enter a town and the people welcome you, eat what is set before you.
    9 Heal the sick in that town and say to them, The kingdom of God has come upon you!
    10 But whenever you enter a town and the people do not welcome you, go into its streets and say,
    11 Even the dust of your town that clings to our feet we wipe off against you. Nevertheless know this: The kingdom of God has come.
    12 I tell you, it will be more bearable on that day for Sodom than for that town!
    13 Woe to you, Chorazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! For if the miracles done in you had been done in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago, sitting in sackcloth and ashes.
    14 But it will be more bearable for Tyre and Sidon in the judgment than for you!
    15 And you, Capernaum, will you be exalted to heaven? No, you will be thrown down to Hades!
    16 The one who listens to you listens to me, and the one who rejects you rejects me, and the one who rejects me rejects the one who sent me.
    17 Then the seventy-two returned with joy, saying, Lord, even the demons submit to us in your name!
    18 So he said to them, I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven.
    19 Look, I have given you authority to tread on snakes and scorpions and on the full force of the enemy, and nothing will hurt you.
    20 Nevertheless, do not rejoice that the spirits submit to you, but rejoice that your names stand written in heaven.
    21 On that same occasion Jesus rejoiced in the Holy Spirit and said, I praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and intelligent, and revealed them to little children. Yes, Father, for this was your gracious will.
    22 All things have been given to me by my Father. No one knows who the Son is except the Father, or who the Father is except the Son and anyone to whom the Son decides to reveal him.
    23 Then Jesus turned to his disciples and said privately, Blessed are the eyes that see what you see!
    24 For I tell you that many prophets and kings longed to see what you see but did not see it, and to hear what you hear but did not hear it.

      The Mission Of The Seventy — Luk 10:1-20

      We should recognize the fact that In this entire passage we have to do with a former dispensation, and we cannot carry everything in that dispensation over into the present age of grace. There are, nevertheless, important lessons here from which we may draw help and instruction as we seek today to do the will of God.

      We have already seen how the Lord commissioned the twelve apostles and sent them out to the cities of Galilee. Now we read that He appointed seventy others. These did not have the official standing that the twelve had. Their commission was for a limited time only, the period during which they would be going from city to city ere His final rejection by the people of Galilee. He sent them out two and two, because He recognized how much they needed fellowship with each other. The preacher in the book of Ecclesiastes tells us that two are better than one, for if one should fall the other can lift up his fellow; and so it seems to be according to divine order, generally, that Christs servants should labor two or more together. One alone might make many blunders and be discouraged, whereas two could confer together and each be cheered and encouraged by the other.

      As the Lord contemplated the multitudes who were as sheep without a shepherd, and to whom He desired His disciples to go with the message of the kingdom, He impressed upon them the need by saying, The harvest truly is great, but the laborers are few. He bade them pray the Lord of the harvest that He would thrust forth laborers into His harvest. On another occasion, when He sat at Jacobs well, after having revealed Himself to that poor, needy woman who had come to draw water, He turned to His disciples and said, Say not ye, There are yet four months, and then cometh harvest? Behold, I say unto you, Lift up your eyes, and look on the fields; for they are white already to harvest. That great harvest-field was constituted of the multitude who did not as yet know Him as Saviour, Messiah, and Lord. It is still true, though we live in a different dispensation, that there are vast multitudes, not only in our own land but in all the regions beyond, who need Christ and who are waiting for the messengers of the Lord to go to them with the precious truth of the gospel. We may therefore apply His words to the present time as well as to the past. He still bids us to pray that laborers may be sent out to reap the harvest that is waiting to be garnered.

      In Luk 10:3-7 we have the direct commission given to the seventy. The Lord Jesus said, Go your ways: behold, I send you forth as lambs among wolves. They were to go in simple dependence upon Him, trusting in the power of God to sustain them, and not retaliating in any way if they were ill-treated. Neither were they to make provision for a long journey, for their mission would be ended within a very short time; therefore He added, Carry neither purse, nor scrip, nor shoes: and salute no man by the way. It would be folly to take these words out of their connection and make them obligatory upon servants of Christ today. The seventy were sent to the people of Israel; they were Israelites themselves. The nation was waiting for the manifestation of the kingdom, and these disciples were to go forth and proclaim the near approach of that kingdom. They had a right to expect entertainment and consideration from those to whom they carried their message. Because of the shortness of the time they were to hasten on their way, and were not to stop for the customary, lengthy, Oriental salutations. They did not need a large sum of money, extra shoes, nor clothing, because the circumstances in which they were found did not demand such provision. In this we may see how different were the circumstances in which they were placed from those in which the average missionary of the cross is found today.

      The seventy had a right to expect to be received by their Jewish brethren as they went to them to declare the presence of the King among them. The Lord said to them, And into whatsoever house ye enter, first say, Peace be to this house. And if the son of peace be there, your peace shall rest upon it: if not, it shall turn to you again. They went forth to proclaim the coming of the Prince of peace, and their salutation was in accordance with this. If the owner of the house was indeed a son of peace, he would gladly welcome His messengers. In that case they were to abide in this house during the time they preached in that particular city or village. If, however, the son of peace did not dwell there, that is, if there was no one in that home who was ready to recognize the mission of the Lord Jesus and to welcome His messengers accordingly, their peace would return to them, and the owner of the house would have lost his opportunity. Alas! When Christ came to the house of Israel the son of peace was not there, and so we read that, He came unto His own, and His own received Him not.

      These messengers were not out on a pleasure tour, and so they were warned against anything that would look like selfishness or the pursuit of personal enjoyment. They were to remain in the house where they were received, eating and drinking such things as were given to them, recognizing the fact that the laborer is worthy of his hire. They were laborers in Jehovahs great harvest-field; it was for his people to receive and provide for them. They were not to go gadding about from house to house, seeking better entertainment. They had a perfect right to expect the people to receive them as the Kings representatives, and therefore they need not feel ashamed to accept whatever entertainment was given them; but they must not give way to indulgence.
      During this present age of grace, servants of Christ have no right or reason to expect the world to receive them into their homes or to provide for them in any way; and so this scripture, in the fullest sense, could not be applied to the present day. We read in the Third Epistle of John of traveling brethren, evidently ministers of the Word, who went forth for the names sake of the Lord Jesus, taking nothing of the Gentiles. The apostle Paul refused to seek his support in the way of taking gifts from the heathen world. He would far rather labor with his hands in order to properly provide for himself and those with him. Conditions were different while our Lord was on earth and ministering to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. His representatives were not trying to impose upon the people when they accepted the accommodations offered. They recognized that it was in this way the people responded to the message of the kingdom, and so whenever a home was opened to them they were to enter into it and gratefully accept the provision offered. It was the duty of the disciples to emphasize the grace of the King. The Lord gave them special power to work miracles in His name. Their message was ever the same: The kingdom of God is come nigh unto you.

      The Old Testament prophets had spoken of this coming kingdom. They had told of One who was to reign in righteousness, and for centuries Israel had been waiting for His manifestation. Now the King was in their midst, and there were few who recognized Him. One can imagine these couriers going from place to place ministering to the needs of the people, and declaring, The kingdom of God is come nigh unto you, as the folk gathered together. The Messiah has already appeared and calls upon you to receive Him. The kingdom of God is about to be established in your midst. The great majority spurned the message and refused the claims of the Lord Jesus Christ and would not have Him reign over them. They knew not the time of their visitation, and so they lost their opportunity. Because of not entering into the blessedness of the kingdom, the time came when the Lord, as it were, shook the dust off His feet as a testimony against them, and said to them, The kingdom of God is taken from you and shall be given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof. And for the time being Israel has been set to one side, and there has been brought in an altogether new dispensation. During all this period those who know and love the Saviour are called to represent Him in the world. This is the time when God is taking out from among the Gentiles a people for His name. He is proclaiming peace by Jesus Christ, and though bloody warfare has marked all the centuries since Christ returned to heaven, those who have trusted Him have found lasting peace, even in the midst of trouble. They have proven the truth of the word, Thou wilt keep him in perfect peace whose mind is stayed on Thee: because he trusteth in Thee. The kingdom is still in the future. The Lord has gone into the far country to receive for Himself a kingdom and to return. Until the day of His Second Advent, His servants are to be busy calling on men to be reconciled to God.

      Our scripture deals with a very important time in Israels history. It was a time of crisis. Everything depended on the attitude of the people toward our Lord Jesus. Would they receive Him? If not, they must remain in their sins, and they would never enter the kingdom for which they had been waiting. There were comparatively few who opened their hearts and homes to the messengers and their message, but to them came blessing. As for the rest, they were left in their sins. The very dust of their cities was a witness against them. Nevertheless the fact remained that the kingdom of God had come nigh unto them.

      In the next few verses we hear the Lord pronouncing the judgments that were to come upon the cities in which He had done the most of His mighty works, which had the best opportunities to know Him, and yet had refused Him. Of all such, He says, I say unto you, that it shall be more tolerable in that day for Sodom, than for that city. From where He was standing He could probably see the cities of Chorazin and Bethsaida; and as He looked upon them, He said, Woe unto thee, Chorazin! woe unto thee, Bethsaida! for if the mighty works had been done in Tyre and Sidon, which have been done in you, they had a great while ago repented, sitting in sackcloth and ashes. These cities, cities which had been blessed by the personal presence of the Lord, and whose people had seen His face, heard the wonderful words which proceeded out of His mouth, and beheld His mighty acts; yet had turned coldly away and even scornfully refused to acknowledge Him as King and Lord. Today Chorazin is merely a ruin, and until recently it could not be positively identified. I remember when traveling in Galilee I noticed some ruins off to one side as we drove down toward Samaria, and turning to my guide, I said, I see the ruins of a city over there; do you know what city it was? He was an Arab. He said to me, That is the city that is called Chorazin in your Bible. That is all that is left of it, because its people failed to receive the King when He came among them in lowly grace. Bethsaida still remains, but it is a poor, little fishing village on the shores of the Sea of Galilee. I was told it is almost impossible to find a Christian there.

      Capernaum was called our Lords own city, for there He made His home when in Galilee after leaving Nazareth. Surely the people there, who had every opportunity to become well acquainted with Him, would receive Him. But, no! He sadly exclaimed, And thou, Capernaum, which art exalted to heaven, shalt be thrust down to hell. It was in Capernaum that the Lord had delivered some of His greatest discourses. The Sermon on the Mount was probably preached on the tableland just back of the city. It was there that He found Matthew the publican, and called him away from the tax-collectors office to become one of His apostles. It was there that He restored Peters wifes mother to health when she was sick of a fever; and there He raised the daughter of Jairus, and healed the poor woman who said, If I may but touch His garment, I shall be whole. Many other wonders had been done in that city, and yet its people rejected Him; and so, though exalted to heaven in privilege, it was to be thrust down to hell, that is, to hades, the unseen world. So completely was this prophecy fulfilled that for over 1500 years no one knew positively the site of the city of Capernaum. It is only within our own times that it has been uncovered. During those long centuries it was covered over with the sands of the desert, and travelers passing by saw only a low mound. But during the time of the First World War, a group of German monks, interned in their monastery on the side of that hill, began to dig in the ground, and little by little they uncovered the ruins of Capernaum. It is just as true of cities as it is of individuals: judgement comes if they spurn the mercy offered to them. It is a terrible thing to trifle with spiritual realities. Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap. These words are as true of cities and nations as of individuals.

      To refuse to accept the testimony of one who comes bearing the message of Christ is the same as refusing Him. Jesus said, He that heareth you heareth Me; and he that despiseth you despiseth Me; and he that despiseth Me despiseth Him that sent Me. We should realize that listening to one of Gods servants as he reads the Word of God is the same thing as listening to our blessed Lord Himself. What responsibility this puts upon us to take heed how and what we hear!

      In Luk 10:17-20 we read of the return of the seventy after they had fulfilled their mission. They evidently had experienced a wonderful time in spite of the indifference of many to them and to their message, for they returned to the Lord with joy, saying, Lord, even the devils are subject unto us through Thy name. He saw that they were too much taken up with their own accomplishments-and there is always the danger of those who preach the Word to take too much credit to themselves for any results that follow-but as these disciples talked of the subjection of the demons, Jesus looked forward in spirit to the hour when Satan will be finally cast out of the heavens, and He exclaimed, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven. Then He added, Behold, I give unto you power to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy: and nothing shall by any means hurt you. That He meant this to be taken literally is evident from what we read in the book of Acts, when the apostle Paul was cast on the island of Melita. He and his companions had made a fire in order to warm themselves, and a serpent came out of the fire and fastened upon Pauls hand. He thrust the venomous beast into the fire and was unhurt, due to the preserving power of God over His own when they are actually in His will. This of course is very different from deliberately handling poisonous snakes as some fanatics have done in our day in order to demonstrate their faith.

      There is something far more blessed, however, than working miracles. That is the knowledge that one is right with God! The Lord Jesus told these exuberant disciples not to rejoice simply because demons were subject to them, but rejoice rather because their names were written in heaven. This is true of all who have trusted Christ for themselves. All such have their names written in the Lambs Book of Life, and these names will never be erased, but will remain for all eternity. — Dr Henry Ironside

      The Mystery Of The Incarnation — Luk 10:21-24

      It is noticeable that immediately after announcing the coming doom of the cities where most of His mighty works had been wrought, our blessed Lord is said to have rejoiced in spirit. Had He been dependent upon human conditions and worldly circumstances for His joy, as we so often are, He might well have been cast down and depressed when He realized how few there were who seemed to have any heart at all for His message, and who were ready to receive Him as the Messiah. But instead of being discouraged by mans coldness and indifference, He manifested the truth of the Word most preciously. With glad heart He looked up to the Father with whom He had unbroken communion, and said, I thank Thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that Thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes: even so, Father; for so it seemed good in Thy sight. He was content to know that the purpose of God was being carried out in spite of mans rejection and enmity. Those who, by their fellows, were numbered among the wise and prudent, had failed to recognize the Messiah when He came in lowly grace, although they professed to be waiting for Him. The Lords appearance was not at all what they expected. They were looking for a great and mighty King; they were looking for One who would drive the Romans from the land of Palestine, re-gather Israel and set up His kingdom immediately, sitting on Davids throne. Instead, there walked among them a Man content to live in apparent poverty, with no certain dwelling-place, going about proclaiming the love of God for poor sinners and declaring that He had come to give His life a ransom for many! This was not at all the kind of Messiah these wise and prudent ones expected. And so their eyes were blinded, and their ears were closed against Him. The precious things He declared seemed foolishness to them. On the other hand, there were those in Israel who, as compared with the wise and prudent, were but babes in knowledge and intelligence. But to these simple ones the Son was revealed, and they learned to trust Him and saw in Him the promised One for whom their people had waited so long. This was all in accordance with Gods purpose of grace; and the Lord Jesus fully acquiesced in His Fathers will in this as in every other respect.

      In the next verse, which is also found in Matthews Gospel, we have brought before us in a very striking way, the mystery of the Incarnation. Jesus said, All things are delivered to Me of My Father: and no man knoweth who the Son is, but the Father; and who the Father is, but the Son, and he to whom the Son will reveal Him. What a rebuke are these words to those theologians who insist upon trying to explain in every detail the union of the human and the divine in Christ. It is quite proper that we should dwell upon what Scripture has declared, but when we attempt to go beyond Scripture, we are almost certain to fall into error; for it is just as true today as it was when Jesus first spoke the words, that, No man knoweth who the Son is, but the Father. The union of the human with the divine, the two natures in one Person, is beyond our comprehension. We know from Scripture that our blessed Lord was God the Son from all eternity, one Person of the ineffable Trinity. We know that He came from the glory that He had with the Father before the world was, and stooped in grace to be born into the world of a Jewish mother. Scripture insists upon the fact that this mother was a virgin. He had no human father, and therefore we may say that He was the Son of God in two senses: He was the Eternal Son, one with the Father before all worlds, and He was the Son of God as Man when born on earth. But in Him we see deity and humanity united in one blessed, adorable Person. To explain this is impossible. Faith receives it because it is revealed in the Word of God.

      Observe the difference between the statement He first makes concerning Himself and the second statement as to the Father. He tells us that no man knoweth who the Father is but the Son. However He immediately adds, And he to whom the Son will reveal Him. Our Lord Himself came to reveal the Father, who, apart from the Son and His revelation, never could have been known. The creation, of course, bears witness to His eternal power and Godhead, as we are taught in the first chapter of Romans, but it was Christ Himself who made known the Fathers name.

      This was one of the things hitherto kept secret which the Lord Jesus declared. In Deu 29:29, we read The secret things belong unto the Lord our God: but those things which are revealed belong to us and to our children for ever, that we may do all the words of this law. Isaiah writes, For since the beginning of the world men have not heard, nor perceived by the ear, neither hath the eye seen, O God, beside Thee, what He hath prepared for him that waiteth for Him. This is the passage that the Apostle quotes from the Septuagint in 1Co 2:9. But he immediately adds, But God hath revealed them unto us by His Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God. Many marvelous truths were hidden in olden times which, since the Advent of our blessed Lord, have been made known to His own. Some of these things He Himself revealed while on earth; others were opened up by the Spirit after Christ ascended to heaven. It is in view of these new unfoldings of divine truths which He came to give, that the Lord Jesus turned to His disciples and said to them privately, that is, He was not speaking to the world as such, but only to His own: Blessed are the eyes which see the things that ye see: for I tell you, that many prophets and kings have desired to see those things which ye see, and have not seen them; and to hear those things which ye hear, and have not heard them.

      It is a precious privilege indeed to be taken into Gods confidence and permitted to share His secrets. We know how friends on earth delight to share with one another certain secret things which they do not make known to strangers; and so our Lord Jesus looked upon His disciples as His intimate friends, and He delighted to open up to them precious things concerning the divine Fatherhood, the wondrous provision God had made for the salvation of the lost, and the preservation of His own.

      It is our privilege today to enter into and enjoy these hitherto secret things, now revealed to faith. We do not need visions or new revelations in order to understand and appropriate them. We discover them as we study the Word of God in prayerful dependence upon the Holy Spirit who inspired the writing of it.

      What we all need is to take the place of babes, to whom God may reveal His secrets. He delights to fill the hungry with good things, but the rich He sends empty away. If we come to Him self-emptied and wait on Him to feed us, we shall find, by faithful perusal of the Holy Scripture in dependence upon the Spirit, that wonderful things will be made known to us that otherwise we would never see. Time spent over the Word in a prayerful attitude will produce rich dividends in the way of leading us on into the knowledge of Christ and His truth. —Dr Henry Ironside

  • Redeemed

    There is something far more blessed, however, than working miracles. That is the knowledge that one is right with God! The Lord Jesus told these exuberant disciples not to rejoice simply because demons were subject to them, but rejoice rather because their names were written in heaven. This is true of all who have trusted Christ for themselves. All such have their names written in the Lambs Book of Life, and these names will never be erased, but will remain for all eternity. Dr Henry Ironside

    Oh how the Lord used Dr. Ironside – because he was a humble man and SERVANT of the Lord. What a contrast to the prominent Christian leaders we see today. He would never welcome praise, but surely he would be pleased that he had been used of the Lord to enlighten His Word through the Holy Spirit.

  • Aliki

    @ Debs and Redeemed.

    I thank you both for love and time and effort and apologise for taking so long to respond.

  • eric

    Help me out. Where are the verses that tell me I am to test every. Word?

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)


    Help me out. Where are the verses that tell me I am to test every. Word?

    Testing the Spirits – plus look at the other verses at the end of some of the verses I have added for you.
    1 John 4:1-6
    1 Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to determine if they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world. (Jer 29:8; Matt 24:4; Eph 5:6; Col 2:18; Matt 7:15-16; 1Cor 14:29; 1Thess 5:21; Matt 24:5; Matt 24:24; 2Pet 2:1; 2John 1:7;)
    2 By this you know the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesses Jesus as the Christ who has come in the flesh is from God,
    3 but every spirit that does not confess Jesus is not from God, and this is the spirit of the antichrist, which you have heard is coming, and now is already in the world. ( 1John 2:22; 1John 2:18; 2Thess 2:7;)
    4 You are from God, little children, and have conquered them, because the one who is in you is greater than the one who is in the world.
    5 They are from the world; therefore they speak from the worlds perspective and the world listens to them.
    6 We are from God; the person who knows God listens to us, but whoever is not from God does not listen to us. By this we know the Spirit of truth and the spirit of deceit. (9 John 8:47; John 10:27;)

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)


    No worries, it is my pleasure :)

  • Redeemed

    @ Aliki:

    Thank you for your refreshing and kind words. All glory and honor go to our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. Blessings to you!

  • Sean

    Hi Deborah, I trust you are well.
    I know that this “gold dust, gem stone and angel feather” heresy is sweeping through the church at the moment – it seems everyone is running after some sign and some wonder!Is there any way, using the scriptures I can refute these things?

  • Dan

    Hi Deborah, I gave my heart to God a few months ago, I started studying my Bible and it’s been going really well. My prayers get answered and I just can’t get enough of reading and studying the Bible. However, I’m surrounded with atheists and evolution theorists ALL DAY LONG! Appart from letting these people know that I’m a christian, I haven’t started witnessing to them yet. Dave Hunt says you have to be able to proof that the God of the bible is real. You can’t just expect people to believe in Him if you can’t back up any of your claims. I couldn’t agree more. That’s why I spend every free moment to study my bible so that I can be ready for their questions and arguments when I do start witnessing to them. But, this takes time. Especially since I live in a foreign country, churches conducting services in English are few and far between. I don’t have even one friend that shares my beliefs. However, this morning I read a verse that just took all the wind out of my sails. 1 John 4:1 – 3 If you’re scared to witness, it is not from the spirit of God. But by the spirit of the anti-christ. Does God take us on a path where He educates us first or do I have to start witnessing from day one, even if I have no idea what scripture means yet or where to find it? This is the first time I feel so bummed out since I became saved. Please advice. This is a pretty serious conviction.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)


    You need to read that verse in context with the whole council of God. If you are not ready to preach you are not ready to preach. All churches in fact tell people that they need to go out and start preaching to people once they get saved – I say this is the worst thing to do. Most people don’t even understand the gospel message of salvation in order to be able to tell others about it.

    God will take you on a journey where He will teach you through the guidance of the Holy Spirit and when the times comes for you to witness to someone, you will be ready. Do not rush into it. Get all your ducks in a row – make sure you can answer all these people’s questions, in fact study these atheists and evolution theorists – listen to what they say as to why God does not exist and then build your gospel message around those questions. Become a master in your field so to say. You are surrounded by these people for a reason. This is your project that God has given you! But be prepared as you don’t want to be in a situation that you can’t answer someone.

    Also remember this, the Holy Spirit needs to be calling the other person who you are preaching too as well, so pray and ask God for opportune moments to witness to the right people that your seeds are sewn.

    Another thing you can do with is open a blog aimed directly at atheists and evolution theorists to preach the truth to them, and through the comments section – there you will preach till your hearts content :)

    Make sense?

  • John Chingford


    Although I do not specifically endorse the theologies of the site “answers in Genesis” It is a superb resource site for countering atheistic, evolutionary, false science ideas. You can find it on:

  • John Chingford


    We ARE all called to be witnesses of Jesus from DAY ONE. However, we SHOULD only tell people WHAT WE KNOW and not get caught up in discussions which we are temporarily ignorant about.

    The woman of Samaria IMMEDIATELY went about telling the people what Jesus had done in her life, so did the blind man etc etc. We are called to tell people that Jesus IS alive, risen from the dead and is with us and tell them what He has done for you. Witnesses means that we have seen the evidence and now testify of what we have seen and know.

  • John Chingford

    re comment 195 @ Deborah (Discerning the World):

    DAN, please check out my other blog which you could use (copy from) in your witnessing:

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    John & Dan

    Ah yes, sorry I misunderstood – witnessing about what Jesus has done for you and who he IS, is something we most definitely will do from the time we are saved. If you don’t want to talk about Jesus then there is something wrong.

  • Dan

    John & Deborah – Thank you both.

    “If you dont want to talk about Jesus then there is something wrong.”

    Yup. Then there’s something wrong. It’s not something I want to do it’s something I feel I have to do. I’m very shy. But even around my friends (who I seldom see now) because they are ALL atheists. I get very nervous everytime when the opportunity arises. I’m scared of the rejection, scared of the consequences of witnessing at work. I’m being very honest here because I really want to be helped.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)


    Ahhh yes, the rejection. Well this doth come with the territory. And you are going to get slapped silly (literally speaking) through mocks and jeers and possibly even sworn at (like I was). When I was saved I made a conscientious decision to tell my occultic friends I was a born again Christian and that I could no longer be friends with them. I said to Jesus, “I am turning my life around right here and now, and I will start by the one thing I loved the most, my friends” – my friends kinda defined who I was. So I told them one evening and boy it did not go down well. I was sworn at, mocked, one even spat at me. One couple said I could remain friends with them but they did not want to hear the name Jesus EVER, but it was ok for them to blaspheme Jesus’ name all the time and I was not allowed to say anything about it. I said no. And I walked out. Being a born again Christian is sometimes a very LONELY life (until such time that you find a partner who is born again as well). You need to make a decision – pray and tell Jesus to give you the courage to speak to these people and give your the strength to take what ever they throw back at you – you never know you might find someone who is willing to listen. You only have to sew one little seed once. And you wont be fired because Jesus is in control of your job! He was the one who got it for you ;) Ever think about that? But having said all that – if you don’t want to speak to the people at your work, pray about it, ask Jesus what you must do? He will let you know.

    I am not good at speaking in public because of my disability, I get stressed out to quickly, end up having little seizures that people don’t understand and I forget what I want to say. So this blog is perfect for me because I can take my time when it comes to answering people and make sure I give the right answer.

  • John Chingford

    Hi Dan

    Debs is correct. You say that you don’t want to witness because of fear of the result. When Debs said “If you dont want to talk about Jesus then there is something wrong” she was not referring to the “fear” factor. What she meant (surely) is that your love for Jesus is so great that you have a DESIRE to talk about Him. He is your Saviour, lover of your soul, your very spiritual life breath, so those who don’t get excited talking about Jesus or talking to Jesus are obviously lacking something important – maybe not born again. It certainly shows that they have not received the Holy Spirit.

    From what I read from your comments, YOU DO love Jesus and DO desire to talk about Him. Your problem is only that you have allowed fear to prevent you from sharing the message that you SO LONG TO SHARE.

    Would you desire to witness if it meant NO persecution? Of course you would! The key is to place yourself completely in God’s hands and trust Him entirely with the results. He has promised that you will not suffer MORE than you can cope with. If you step out and witness (in faith) He will give you the boldness and a JOY in doing so. As you step out He will fill you with the Holy Spirit and will take care of the outcome for you.

    How often did God (in the OT) and Jesus (in the NT) have to say “fear not”. Jesus said “fear not, I have overcome the World”. Jesus said “do not fear man, who can only (at worst) kill the body” Note: in brackets added by me for clarification. That may seem a big deal to you, but remember that LIFE AND DEATH is ultimately in GOD’S hands. They cannot do ANYTHING without God’s permission.

    The more you step out in boldness, the more help you will get from the Holy Spirit. That certainly is my experience. Jesus said “do not worry BEFOREHAND what you are to speak, for in that very hour, you will be given what to say”.

    God bless.

  • John Chingford


    You quoted from 1 John 4:1-3 as evidence that you do not have the true spirit.

    Here is what it actually says. Let us look at the context:

    “Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits, whether they are of God; because many false prophets have gone out into the world. By this you know the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is of God, and every spirit that does not confess that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is not of God. And this is the spirit of the Antichrist, which you have heard was coming, and is now already in the world.”

    The context is about truth and false teachings. It is NOT discussing whether we are witnessing of our faith or not. The context is about WHAT WE PREACH. Do we confess the truth about Jesus or do we preach “another Jesus”. At the time John was writing that, there was a false religion (which originated in Babylon) called gnosticism. That religion declared that there was nothing good in the flesh. Only the spirit of man was good. They taught (as I understand it) that God could NOT have dwelt in a body, therefore Jesus was like an angel and his body did not rise from the dead. They effectively teach that Jesus was NOT God incarnate.

    This warning by John can be applied to any and every false religion that declares error/heresy about Jesus.

    I am sure that you believe in the TRUE Jesus. Therefore, those verses do not apply to you.

  • Tr