The Nephilim: Sons of God, Daughters of Men

NephilimThe Biblical Truth of the Nephilim

A while ago I posted an article on the Nephilim stating that I did not believe that the Nephilim were demonic offspring.  I then deleted the article because I became uncertain if I was indeed correct.  Since then I have been searching for the truth and I am happy to say I have found the TRUTH.  The reason I am so passionate about the answer to this question is because of the rise in interest in the supernatural, i.e, aliens, trans-humanism etc.  There are stories running abound that during the tribulation demons will be free to do as they please on earth, producing offspring like the Nephilim.  The bible is very clear that we are to not let our minds be captured by occult imagination because when human minds get hold of unbiblical ideas it runs free and causes all sorts of havoc.

Permission received by Anton Bosch to re-publish his article. Thank you!  
[** Emphasis added by DTW]
[** See DTW notes at bottom of article.]

Nephilim

By Pastor Anton Bosch – www.antonbosch.org

The Hebrew word Nephilim is translated “giants” in the Old Testament. It only appears twice in Genesis 6:4 and Numbers 13:33.  A whole series of doctrines have been built around this word, in spite of the fact that the word only appears rarely. These doctrines on the Nephilim are based on Genesis 6:1-4.(It must be noted that most speculators lean very heavily on extra-biblical writings for most of their information.) The theories can basically be summed up as follows:

Demons / angels (sons of God) had illicit relationships with women (the daughters of men) and these perverted relations produced genetically mutated beings known as Nephilim (giants). God then imprisoned some of the angles who did this and in order to purify the bloodline of man God brought on the Flood. Through genetic engineering these Nephilim will be resurrected, one of which will be the Antichrist[i]. To these people, the Nephilim are also connected to so-called extra-terrestrial forms of life.

Since these theories are gaining ground and a number of books have been published based on this hypothesis, it is necessary to examine Genesis 6 again and see what exactly it teaches. We will discover that the proponents of these theories break every principle of hermeneutics. Here is the text:

“Now it came to pass, when men began to multiply on the face of the earth, and daughters were born to them, that the sons of God saw the daughters of men, that they were beautiful; and they took wives for themselves of all whom they chose. And the LORD said, “My Spirit shall not strive with man forever, for he is indeed flesh; yet his days shall be one hundred and twenty years.” There were giants on the earth in those days, and also afterward, when the sons of God came in to the daughters of men and they bore children to them. Those were the mighty men who were of old, men of renown“. (Genesis 6:1-4)

Sons of God

The first problem revolves around who in the passage are the “sons of God”. Some make the connection with Job 1:6; 2:1. “Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan also came among them.” (Job 1:6). It is obvious, and not contested, that the “sons of God” in Job were angels. But does that mean that this term in Genesis 6:2 also refers to angels?

First, the normal meaning of “sons of God” is “believers”. “But as many as received him, to them gave He power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name” (John 1:12). Job 1:6 (a poetic book) is the only place where angels are called “sons of God”. It is logical and reasonable therefore that the normal meaning be attached to the term here, rather than the exception, as found in Job, unless there were something in the text that made a connection between Genesis 6 and Job 1 – which is absent.

Second Jesus explicitly said that “in the resurrection they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels of God in heaven.” (Matthew 22:30) (See also Luke 20:34-36). Therefore in Jesus’ own words, angels are asexual and do not procreate.

So here is the problem. Genesis is obscure about who had the relations. Jesus said angels do not have relations. So either Jesus was mistaken or the “sons of God” were not angels. You choose! It is really as simple as that – there are no other options.

Some try to get around this by saying that the angels inhabited (possessed) human bodies to do this. That sounds good. But here is the question: A Christian man has the Holy Spirit in him. When that man produces a child by his wife, what is the child? God or man? Clearly, it is a man. There are multitudes of people in the world who are demon possessed and who procreate. What do they produce? Human babies or mutants? Obviously human babies. So why should Genesis 6 be any different. If demons entered into men to produce offspring the children would be human, and only human.

One of the principles of hermeneutics is that the Old Testament is interpreted in the light of the New Testament and not the other way round. In order to say that the “sons of God” in Genesis 6 are angels (or demons) we must discard the light of the NT and that should never happen.

The nature of the relationships

The next problem is that it is claimed that the angels had illicit relations with women. Yet the text is very clear: “they took wives for themselves of all whom they chose” (Genesis 6:2b). The phrase “took wives for themselves” only, and always, means marriage. It never refers to casual, illicit or adulterous relationships. (See Genesis 11:29 & Ruth 1:4). To suggest otherwise is reading into the text that which is simply not there.

Giants

The theory goes that the giants were the product of these illicit relationships. We have shown that the text does not refer to illicit relationships and that the fathers could not be angels.

Genesis 6:4, again is very clear: “There were giants on the earth in those days, and also afterward, when the sons of God came in to the daughters of men and they bore children to them.”  Notice that it says there were giants (fact number 1) and afterwards the sons of God came into… (fact number 2). There is NO connection between the fact that there were giants and the fact that people had children.

It is exactly like me saying: “There is milk in the supermarket and eggs are $1.50 a dozen” Milk has no effect on the price, or even the existence, of eggs and the other way around. I am simply stating two facts that describe things about food in the supermarket.

In Genesis 6 Moses is describing the state of the world before the flood. He makes no connection between the Nephilim and the sons of God and daughters of men. If the sentence had been reversed as follows: “The sons of God came into the daughters of men and they bore Nephilim” then you could postulate some theory about the nature of this process. But the text does not give us any room to connect the Nephilim with these marriages.

Genesis 6:4 does say that the children that were produced “were the mighty men who were of old, men of renown“. “Mighty men” is a term which is used 154 times in the OT and simply refers to powerful men, either physically or politically. Just like there are many mighty men today and some are men of God and others are worldly and unsaved, so there were mighty men in those days, of which Noah was one.

“Men of old” also holds no mystique, these were simply the heroes of bygone days.

“Men of renown” is also used in Numbers 16:2 and Ezekiel 23:23. These are famous men, or well-known men. The Hebrew term literally means “men with a name” meaning they had “made a name” for themselves.

The descendants of these relationships were not monsters, mutants, or anything extraordinary. Some were ordinary people and some were powerful, some were little known and others had made a name for themselves. Genesis 6:5 (the next verse) goes on to describe these people as wicked and worthy of God’s judgment.

Furthermore, the translation of the word Nephilim in Genesis 6:4 as “giants” is very arbitrary. There are many other possible ways this word could be translated here: “Bullies”, “mighty ones” or “tyrants”.  At least one dictionary states that the Nephilim in Genesis and in Numbers were two different peoples[ii]. Once again, we cannot build an entire doctrine on a word which we cannot translate or explain with any measure of certainty.

Genesis 6:4 is simply a description of life before the flood and not a commentary on mysterious genetic mutant life forms. Jesus obviously has this verse in mind when he says: “But as the days of Noah were, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. For as in the days before the flood, they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, and did not know until the flood came and took them all away, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be.” (Matthew 24:37-39) (note the reference to marriage in both verses).

One of the most important principles of hermeneutics is that the verse has to be read in its context. The context is clear, that life was going on as usual, people were becoming more and more self-absorbed and sinful but judgment was coming. This is the same point Jesus was making in Matthew 24 – people will be self-absorbed and fixated on every-day life and will not be ready for His coming.

The cause of the Flood

Those who speculate about the Nephilim, connect them with the reason for the Flood. Once again, there is no connection there. Genesis 6 describes life on earth. Yes, there were Nephilim, but more significantly, people were marrying and having children and becoming more wicked. Genesis 6:5-6 cannot be clearer. God’s judgment fell because of the wickedness of man. This had absolutely nothing to do with demons, angels or mutants. Look at these verses again: “Then the LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. And the LORD was sorry that He had made man on the earth, and He was grieved in His heart. So the LORD said, “I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth, both man and beast, creeping thing and birds of the air, for I am sorry that I have made them.”(Genesis 6:5-7).

If the flood had anything to do with anything other than man’s sinfulness, either Moses or Jesus would have said something in that regard, but both are silent about demons, angels and mutants. The flood had nothing to do with clearing the gene pool. It was all about clearing the earth of sinful and wicked people. Even Sunday school children should be able to tell you that.

If the flood had anything to do with God wanting to destroy the giants because they were “contaminated seed” or to purge the gene pool then, Noah and his sons should have been destroyed also. Noah and his sons carried the gene from which giants were formed. This is obvious since giants (Nephilim) are born after the flood and were present in the Land when the spies were sent to scout out the land (Numbers 13:33). These giants were descendants of Noah since all of humankind after the flood descended from Noah.

Extra-biblical evidence

These speculators quote the Book of Enoch (and other apocryphal books) in support of their ideas as though they are Scripture. Yet, Enoch and the rest of the Apocrypha are not part of the canon of Scripture for obvious reasons – they are not, and have never been regarded as inspired except by apostate churches and false teachers.

Once again they break one of the fundamentals of Evangelical and Reformed hermeneutics: We hold only to Scripture and do not add, nor subtract from it (Revelation 22:18; Deuteronomy 4:2; 12:32). It is especially reprehensible to formulate an entire doctrine on extra-biblical evidence as these people are doing.

The fact is that there is overwhelming evidence in very old writings that the Hebrew sages never regarded the “sons of God” as angels or demons. But we dare not use that as evidence lest we sink to the same level as these speculators.

Jude 6 is quoted in support of the theories. This verse says: “And the angels who did not keep their proper domain, but left their own abode, He has reserved in everlasting chains under darkness for the judgment of the great day” (Jude 1:6).

Once again, there is absolutely nothing in the verse, or the context, that connects it with Genesis 6. There is nothing in the context that gives rise to understand that “not keep(ing) their proper domain” has anything to do with having relations with women. These angels sinned by overstepping their boundaries – that is evident. But what those boundaries were can be any of a hundred things. We just cannot draw connection between Genesis 6 and Jude 6, except that the chapter number is the same as the verse number!

2 Peter 2:4-5

Verse 4 is similar to Jude 6: “For if God did not spare the angels who sinned, but cast them down to hell and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved for judgment and did not spare the ancient world, but saved Noah, one of eight people, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood on the world of the ungodly.” (2 Peter 2:4-5).

To those who pluck verses out of their context there appears to be a connection between the sinning angels and the flood. But look at the context:

2Peter 2:1-3 There were, and will be, false teachers and they will “bring upon themselves swift destruction“.

2Peter 2:4 Angels sinned and God “reserved them for judgment

2Peter 2:5 The ancient world sinned and God judged them by the flood but spared Noah

2Peter 2:6-8 Sodom and Gomorrah sinned and God judged them but spared Lot

2Peter 2:9 Therefore in the future, the Lord will judge the unjust and save the godly.

The angels and the pre-flood world are simply two of four examples that Peter quotes to show that God will punish sin. The connections between the sinning angels and the flood are the same connection with false teachers and Sodom – the connections have nothing to do with gene mutation but is all about sin and the consequences thereof.

Conclusion

The purpose of this brief article is not to provide answers to all the questions that surround Genesis 6. In fact, we do not have all the answers and those who claim they have a full and detailed explanation for these verses are speculating. The point of the text in Genesis 6, and 2Peter 2 is to warn that God will not tolerate sin and will judge it.

But what we are certain of is that the theories about angels producing mutant life forms are not Biblical and that the conclusions derived from this theory are fictional, at best.

“…charge some that they teach no other doctrine, nor give heed to fables and endless genealogies, which cause disputes rather than godly edification which is in faith“. (1 Timothy 1:3-4).

“But reject profane and old wives’ fables, and exercise yourself toward godliness.”(1 Timothy 4:7).

For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine, but according to their own desires, because they have itching ears, they will heap up for themselves teachers; and they will turn their ears away from the truth, and be turned aside to fables.” (2 Timothy 4:3-4)


[i] This is a very brief and highly sanitized summary of some very extreme and bizarre teachings. But it must also be noted that those who hold to these teachings differ greatly amongst themselves as to how far they take their conclusions.

[ii]Thomas, R. L. (1998). New American Standard Hebrew-Aramaic and Greek dictionaries : Updated edition. Anaheim: Foundation Publications, Inc.


[DTW notes with the help of Anton Bosch (thank you again for all your assistance):

1)  David and Goliath – 

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Yes, there were giants but not in the sense of the pictures of Jack and the beanstalk. Goliath was anywhere between 6’9” to 10′ tall.  The oldest manuscripts – the Dead Sea Scrolls text of Samuel, the first-century historian Josephus, and the fourth century Septuagint manuscripts – all give his height as “four cubits and a span”, about six feet, nine inches tall (two meters), but later manuscripts have it as “six cubits and a span,” which would make him almost ten feet tall (three meters). The average height of the LA Lakers basketball team is 6’4″, with a few of them at 6’9″.  Andre the Giant from the WWE (World Wrestling Entertainment) stood at 7’4″ while the Great Khali currently stands at 7’1″.  [Note that DTW has never referred to the dead-sea scrolls for information, but to help explain Goliath in this instance, it is very necessary.]

Saul stood “head-and-shoulders” above the rest of the people and David (it seems) could fit into his armour. David appears extra small to Goliath because he was just a youth when he fought and killed Goliath. However when David grew up he was able to use Goliath’s sword (1Sam 21). So as adults David and Saul were almost as big as Goliath! – now that’s a revolutionary thought!

The same goes for the Canaanites, they were giant men, but not from another world.  There is no possible way that these giants were of an extraterrestrial nature because the bible does not say so – the bible does say there were giants before the flood and their DNA must have been in Noah because the DNA is carried forward to beyond the flood. We need to remain silent on the things the Bible is silent on – we can’t go around and make wild speculations as many well known pastors are doing.  To again speculate that angels came down again to have relations with human women to produce more giants after the flood is just nonsense.

2)  Those giant skeletons they supposedly found in Greece and Middle East –

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THERE’S A good reason we haven’t heard about this epic discovery in the New York TimesScientific American, or any other legitimate publication, and that is that these photos, like the one circulating since 2004 purporting to show a giant skeleton found in the Middle East, are fakes.

As if it weren’t preposterous enough to claim that one 15-foot-tall fossilized human skeleton had turned up without media fanfare, we’re asked to believe that archaeologists recently dug up four of them in a single location (Greece). In point of fact, each of the photos appears to have been taken at a different time and place.

So far I’ve only been able to locate the original of one of them, but it serves as clear proof that Photoshopping took place. Image #4 was created by inserting an outsized human skull into a photo of a 1993 University of Chicago dinosaur dig in Niger, Africa (see the original here). If you look at a blow-up of the doctored image, the skull appears flattened and unnatural (and one of the workers actually appears to be standing on it!).

Moreover, the same cut-and-pasted skull was used to create image #2 (see side-by-side comparison). A blow-up of image #2 with brightness and contrast enhanced reveals unnaturally dark “shadows” around the skull. The skull in Image #3 is marked by incongruously bright highlights on the teeth and around the edges of the gaping temple wound. And in image #5 the shadows coming off the skeleton fall more or less toward the camera, while the worker’s shadow falls due left, suggesting that elements of two different photos were combined.

Finally, despite frequent references to “giants” in ancient mythology and English translations of the Bible, there is no generally accepted scientific or historical evidence that such beings ever actually existed (unless you consider the Weekly World News a reliable source).

source:  http://urbanlegends.about.com/od/supernaturalwonders/ss/giants_in_greece_6.htm

NB!! See here for more giant skeletons and why they are a hoax as well:  http://yowcrooks.blogspot.com/2008/12/giant-skeleton-hoax.html

3)  Nephilim: A greater understanding of Jude 5-10:

And the angels who did not keep their proper domain, but left their own abode, He has reserved in everlasting chains under darkness for the judgment of the great day” (Jude 1:6)

Jude 6 is quoted in support of their theories connecting it to Genesis 6 that angels came down and had relations with women. Once again, there is absolutely nothing in the verse, or the context, that connects it with Genesis 6. There is nothing in the context that gives rise to understand that “not keep(ing) their proper domain” has anything to do with having relations with women. These angels sinned by overstepping their boundaries – that is evident. But what those boundaries were can be any of a hundred things. We just cannot draw connection between Genesis 6 and Jude 6, except that the chapter number is the same as the verse number!

To explain Jude 5 – 8 properly, it contains a number of separate examples of God judging  sin. Just like paprables where there is a central truth and the only connection between the parables is that truth (e.g. That which was lost is found: lost coin, lost sheep, lost son).  Here there are four examples showing the same truth that God judges sin. The examples are: 1) Israel’s unbelief in not crossing into the land, 2) angels who did not keep their proper domain, 3) Sodom and Gomorrah’s sexual sin and 4) false teachers.
——
If there is a sexual connection between Sodom and the angels (the angels sinned in a sexual way) then there must also be a connection between Sodom and Israel and between Israel and the angels. But that is not the link here.  The link is sin.In the case of Israel it is unbelief (Hebrews 3 & 4), in the case of Sodom and Gomorrah it is homosexuality and in the case of the angels it was rebellion when Satan was cast down from heaven and 1/3 of the angels followed.
——
Note that the text must be read in its context and we cannot simply make connections and draw conclusions that are not there. Now concerning the statement “who did not keep their proper domain, but left their own abode”. People connect that to Sodom and say that this means angels had relations with women. But we need to examine the statement carefully. The first word “proper domain” according to Thayer means:
——
 Original: oiketerion
– Transliteration: Arche
– Phonetic: ar-khay’
– Definition:
1.  beginning, origin
2.  the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3.  that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4.  the extremity of a thing
a.  of the corners of a sail
5.  the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
a.  of angels and demons
Note the word is “Arche” from which we get “arch-enemy”, “arch-rival” etc. This has nothing to do with sexual orientation but with primacy, authority etc. The second is “abode”. This is also a very common word: (oiketerion) which simply means house, habitation or abode.The verse then teaches that the angels did not remain in their proper authority and left their place. This could be construed to mean they had relations with the daughters of men. But it forces and construes a meaning that is NOT obvious to the sentence.
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A more natural interpretation is that the angels rebelled against God’s authority at the very beginning when Satan was cast out of heaven and left their place in the order and hierarchy of God. The English Standard version (ESV) is one of the best translations available. The ESV has the verse as follows:  “And the angels who did not stay within their own position of authority, but left their proper dwelling, he has kept in eternal chains under gloomy darkness until the judgment of the great day-
“This is supported by June 9-10 which speaks about false preachers who do not know their proper place when dealing with the Devil and demons(and yes, Satan is a “dignitary”  – powerful person ).
——
What we do not know is why some of these angels (demons) were chained in the “abyss” and others were left to roam the earth. We can only surmise that some sinned more grievously than others. But it also seems that the Lord can (and probably does) throw more of them into the abyss for whatever reason:
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Luke 8:30-32   “30 Jesus asked him, saying, “What is your name?” And he said, “Legion,” because many demons had entered him. 31 And they begged Him that He would not command them to go out into the abyss.  32 Now a herd of many swine was feeding there on the mountain. So they begged Him that He would permit them to enter them. And He permitted them..”
——
Now for Jude 7:  The cities around them refers to Admah and Zeboim:

Deuteronomy 29:23  “And that the whole land thereof is brimstone, and salt, and burning, that it is not sown, nor beareth, nor any grass groweth therein, like the overthrow of Sodom, and Gomorrah, Admah, and Zeboim, which the LORD overthrew in his anger, and in his wrath:”

Hosea 11:8  “How shall I give thee up, Ephraim? how shall I deliver thee, Israel? how shall I make thee as Admah? how shall I set thee as Zeboim? mine heart is turned within me, my repentings are kindled together.”

The words “similar manner to these” can only refer to the most recently mentioned subjects – the cities. There is no way, at all that it can refer to the Angels. No language works like that.

When we say “Tom went to church and John went to the mall and Jerry went to the beach and he got sunburned.” The “he” can only refer to the most recent subject – Jerry.

So the meaning is very clear and obvious that Sodom and Gomorrah gave themselves over to immorality and Admah and Zeboim did likewise. There is no other possibility.

The problem here is that it all begins with a bad exegesis is Genesis 6. If you read Genesis 6 to mean that Angels had relations with women (and reject the words of Jesus that they cannot) then you have to find further support. Once you have jumped to that conclusion, it is easy to misread and misinterpret Jude 6&7. But if you do not make assumptions about relations between angels and women, then there is no way you can read that into Jude. So, you have to force the meaning of Gen 6 and then you have to force the meaning of Jude 6 to come to a conclusion.

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Tom Lessing (Discerning the World)

Ryan

How did incorporeal spirit beings (fallen angels) manage to copulate with earthly women? Before you answer that, tell me what the biblical meaning of marriage is? Are you married? In that case yo u should know. If you don’t I shall gladly inform you.

Dear Ryan

Ok, let’s make it all make sense shall we:

Tell me, the bible says that after the flood there were Nephilim too. Can you explain this to me?

    Genesis 6:4 There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown.

Here is a question no one can answer maybe you can…

You said ““For if God did not spare angels when they sinned” … “And the angels who did not stay within their own position of authority, but left their proper dwelling, he has kept in eternal chains under gloomy darkness until the judgement of the great day— just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding cities, which LIKEWISE indulged in sexual immorality and pursued unnatural desire, serve as an example by undergoing a punishment of eternal fire.” The context clearly links to pre-flood sexual sin of angels – it was as unnatural for them as homosexuality is for humans.”

So it “links to pre-flood sexual sin of angel”, yet the bible says it was like this after the flood as well. (Genesis 6:4) As I commented earlier to another person:

– Was there another set of angels who left their abode and came down after the flood and MARRIED THEM not just had sex with human woman (must have been Noah’s righteous offspring)
– And were those angels chained up too afterwards by God?
– Or did the Nephilim somehow survive the flood to carry on afterwards, which turns the whole Noah story into a load of nonsense as it wasn’t just Noah and his family who survived the flood but the giant Nephilim as well.

Another guy commented: “The fact that the plain language says what the literal says, it describes them before and after the flood and provides logical reasoning”

I said “It does? Really? Would you like to quote a verse to us that says fallen angels came down a second time, after the flood?”

– Do you think a second lot would do the same as the first knowing full well the punishment they would receive?
– And if the second lot came down after the flood, why is it not mentioned in the bible that God threw them into Tartarus too?
– Now the big question, why are demonic angels still not coming down today as we speak creating giant demonic babies?

1) But if you can’t answer that…maybe just providing us with a verse from Bible showing us how the Nephilim survived the flood will be a nice place to start.

2) Also please explain to me how a normal sized human woman gives birth to a giant baby that grows up to be 20 to 30 feet tall? The Book of Enoch says several where 450 feet tall! Remember when a baby is born their head is bigger in size in relation to their body.

The 7th chapter of the Book of Enoch specifically references the height of the giants. it says in Enoch 7:2–4 “And they became pregnant, and they bare great giants, whose height was three thousand ells: Who consumed all the acquisitions of men. And when men could no longer sustain them, the giants turned against them and devoured mankind.”

Ryan

Do I need to humour you with a response, brother? Marriage = sexual intercourse in the Bible. As to how the incorporeal beings managed to copulate is something I can’t explain, but nor can I explain how they ate food prepared by Lot and later by Sarah, had their feet washed by them, or how they took Lot and his family away from Sodom before destroying the it and the surrounding cities, how they slaughtered 185000 Assyrians, or how they wrought destruction in Job’s life.

Allow me to inform you of something: angels are a form of lesser “elohim” (Psalm 82) – they have power to manifest in human form and interact as humans on earth, they can execute physical exploits, as well as bring destruction to cities and armies. The exact mechanisms by which they exercise that power is only alluded to in the Bible, but not explained in detail. If you can explain how they ate and did all these other things, you may be able to explain how they copulated, but since you can’t, then neither can I. All I know is the Bible says, they did, and I believe it. You should to, brother…

I have a life to live and people to share the Gospel with, so if you don’t mind – let’s agree to disagree. It’s a tertiary point. Let’s focus on the main things – telling others about the amazing love of God though the saving work of His Son – our Lord and Saviour, Jesus Christ. Peace, brother.

Tom (Discerning the World)

Ryan wrote,

Do I need to humour you with a response, brother? Marriage = sexual intercourse in the Bible. As to how the incorporeal beings managed to copulate is something I can’t explain, but nor can I explain how they ate food prepared by Lot and later by Sarah, had their feet washed by them, or how they took Lot and his family away from Sodom before destroying the it and the surrounding cities, how they slaughtered 185000 Assyrians, or how they wrought destruction in Job’s life.

Allow me to inform you of something: angels are a form of lesser “elohim” (Psalm 82) – they have power to manifest in human form and interact as humans on earth, they can execute physical exploits, as well as bring destruction to cities and armies. The exact mechanisms by which they exercise that power is only alluded to in the Bible, but not explained in detail. If you can explain how they ate and did all these other things, you may be able to explain how they copulated, but since you can’t, then neither can I. All I know is the Bible says, they did, and I believe it. You should to, brother…

I have a life to live and people to share the Gospel with, so if you don’t mind – let’s agree to disagree. It’s a tertiary point. Let’s focus on the main things – telling others about the amazing love of God though the saving work of His Son – our Lord and Saviour, Jesus Christ. Peace, brother.

If you cannot explain these things, then it is far better to believe Jesus’s simple explanation in Matthew 22:30 or can’t you believe Him without adding your own inexplicable surmisings. Show me a single place in the Bible where fallen angels appeared in human form. There is none whatsoever. I’m rather reluctant to quote Jesus again because you refuse to believe Him. Nonetheless, this is what he said about fallen angels (demons).

When the unclean spirit is gone out of a man, he walketh through dry places, seeking rest; and finding none, he saith, I will return unto my house whence I came out. And when he cometh, he findeth it swept and garnished. Then goeth he, and taketh to him seven other spirits more wicked than himself, and they enter in, and dwell there: and the last state of that man is worse than the first.
(Luk 11:24-26)

If demons were able to manifest them in human form, why didn’t they do just that when Jesus cast them out? It would have been much easier for them to find the rest they needed without having to go to and fro through dry places to find the rest they need.

A biblically constituted marriage is where two entities of flesh and blood become one flesh. PLEASE NOT THE “ONE FLESH” BIT, RYAN! You ought to know that! It follows that the fallen angels needed to become flesh and blood before they could marry and have sex with earthly women. The next question. If they had become flesh and blood, who incarnated them? They themselves or God? It could not have been the fallen angels because they do not have creative powers. So, it must have been God because He alone has creative powers. As you may have noticed the Nephilim story, as you and so many others believe, is akin to blasphemy because it suggests that God incarnated the fallen angels so that they may become one flesh in marriage with earthly women to produce giants 450 feet in height. That’s just too preposterous to even contemplate. And by the way, angels, good or bad, never had and never will have the power to manifest in human form and interact with humans. God alone has that power, and therefore angels can only manifest themselves on earth when God provides them their human form whenever He wills it and not they. They cannot manifest themselves at will. That would be an act of disobedience, making them equal to the fallen angels. It is called sin, for your information, Mr. Ryan who loves to humour other people and then hypocritically call them brothers.

Yes, indeed, you have a life to live but are you prepared to live your life in lies? Telling people that fallen angels married and had sex with earthly women is not, I repeat NOT, the Gospel. It is another Gospel because it implies that Jesus Christ was not the only Person to be incarnated. It is NOT, I repeat NOT a tertiary point. It maliciously vilifies and twists the Gospel of God. You need to repent of your wickedness.

Tom (Discerning the World)

Ryan wrote,

Do I need to humour you with a response, brother? Marriage = sexual intercourse in the Bible

I find this statement rather funny (excuse the pun. I was thinking of Ryan’s humour), I sincerely hope his wife never reads his comment. If sexual intercourse was the foundation of marriage, then every single Tom, Dick and Harry who has an illicit sexual relationship may claim to be married. No wonder he does not understand the Nephilim account in Scripture.

Deborah (Discerning the World)

Dear Ryan

Don’t run away yet…I’m waiting  :wait: for your answers…

In the mean time while you ponder your reply (and at the same time you can live your life, me thinks it’s called multitasking) I am going shopping.

Hi Debs,

Ryan is a runner-Christian. He says things that are not biblical, runs away as far as he can, runs back again to add some of his new found lies, runs away again as far as he can and then stays away permanently because he cannot substantiate his lies.

Hi Tom

Ah man, and I was so waiting for him to come back.  :grin:

Ryan

Aww! That’s lovely. Look at you two pretending like you have me running away…does it make you feel better make-believing that you have scared me away with your “superior” exegetical prowess?

I explained to you that I have a life away from the internet. I have young children, I have a wider family, I’m involved in ministry…you know – telling people the Gospel of Jesus Christ. I politely suggested that we agree to disagree over this tertiary issue, that we focus on telling people the good news rather than arguing over interpretations of the Nephilim. But, I see what type of people you are – if anyone stands up to your twisting of Scripture, you gather together like little trolls to bombard and provoke them with ad hominems and empty cries of victory. What are you doing to reach souls? As I see it – your tone with fellow believers is entirely in the flesh…completely reactionary and a terrible witness. Do you feel threatened? At least allow someone to time to respond to each comment. At least have the maturity to accept that someone may see this peripheral issue differently from you, without publicly slandering and condemning them. You may spend your life on these blogs, but I don’t.

Marriage – there were no wedding ceremonies in the beginning. Marriage was consummated by copulation. Other brothers have already given you rather vivid examples. Wedding ceremonies came later as a public declaration of marriage before God…precisely to account for man’s deceitful heart. If you were going to copulate with her, you had to declare publicly your commitment to taking care of her and your children.

You said, “don’t give me that one flesh argument” – well, you may as well say, “don’t destroy my argument with truth.” That’s why sexual intercourse outside of lifetime commitment is called fornication – enjoying the pleasure without the commitment. That’s why the Bible says “they took wives from among them” – do you actually think they held wedding ceremonies?

You said, “only God has creative power”, completely ignoring my point that angels are endowed with power at their own creation – they are lesser elohim. Just because God can prevent evil, it doesn’t mean that He will. Just because fallen angels manifested somehow to “procreate” – that doesn’t mean they are YAHWEH. I asked you several questions on how they were able to do other human things and you have not answered these, other than to say, essentially God empowered them to. So, did he permit them, then give them power to these things, or were they already endowed with that power, and God permitted them to do their evil deeds? Because, I can’t see any reference to God endowing angels with power after permission was given (see Job). How did Satan and the rest of the fallen angels rebel if they are completely reliant on God? Did they say, “please LORD – we’d like to rebel. Can you give us power to do so, please?” These entities had power endowed already with which to rebel and do evil exploits. You have to understand the difference between Divine permission Vs Divine sovereignty. In His sovereignty, God has given these entities scope and freedom to rebel and sin using the power that they were already endowed with…like you and I. God is not surprised by anything His created beings do. He has accounted for all of it. That’s sovereignty.

As for demons being fallen angels – I disagree with your interpretation of Luke 11:24-26. There is ample scope in the Greek language to refer to fallen angels, like Peter and Jude did. The word unclean spirit and demon are different. Based on you and your friend’s argument, are the fallen angels imprisoned in Tartarus or are they roaming about like demons?

Deborah – I made no claim about nephilim surviving the flood. If the Bible says, “there were nephilim in the land in these days and afterwards”, then that’s what it says. I’m not going to argue with God. It goes on to say, “when the sons of God came in to the daughters of man and they bore children to them.” Did you get that? The sons of God came and took daughters of men, who bore them children. It happened in the days immediately before the flood and afterwards. The verse that says they came down after the flood is Genesis 6:4 – how many times does God have to say it? Lo and behold, we find the same wretched beings in the land after the flood – Og, Goliath etc.

Well, now that I have consumed a sizable part of my morning correcting you in your little world of error, let me provoke you…I suspect that this may be where I get blocked, so that you can make it look like you were victorious. Well good luck with that approach because, the Lord is not with you. In a bid to look like a discernment ministry you have become fleshy, divisive and immature. Should I follow suit?

“That big bad Wyan is a scawedy-cat…he wan away, he can’t even undewstand da Bible…the hewetic that he is! We showed him who’s weally boss wound hewe when it comes to the Bible.”

Dear reader – please be assured that I, Ryan, am not afraid to engage in serious dialogue to discern what our Lord is saying to us in His word. I have provided answers to most of the bombardment of comments and -questions Tom and Deborah gave. However, I have found them to be very child-like and goading in their approach. While they may pretend to be victorious in chasing me away, let me make it clear – you are wasting your time with people like them. All they want to do is win arguments and slander anyone who disagrees with their erroneous understanding of Holy Scripture. They lack the humility to even consider they may not have everything right in their own interpretations of the Bible, because they, having exercised discernment against obvious heretics who are in error, have become conceited in their own eyes, rendering themselves unteachable. My absence from here is either because I was blocked or because I refuse to engage any further in their silly little empire. Please do not be fooled into thinking otherwise. God knows all things, including our hearts.

Blessings

Tom (Discerning the World)

Ryan,

Well, that’s so sweet of you. You accuse Deborah and I of ad hominem attacks whilst your entire comment is geared at attacking us in the most vicious way imaginable. Thank you so much for that. You have written your own downfall on this site. Don’t blame us.

“That big bad Wyan is a scawedy-cat…he wan away, he can’t even undewstand da Bible…the hewetic that he is! We showed him who’s weally boss wound hewe when it comes to the Bible.”

Now let’s see how the Bible interprets your glorious description of yourself.

For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women (and men) laden with sins, led away with divers lusts, Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth. (2Ti 3:6-7).

Farewell Ryan. Remember to keep your eyes peeled for the next appearance of the Nephilim and while you’re at it please ask your wife what a real marriage really means. Marriage has always been the same since the very beginning of time because God who instituted it is changeless

Bye bye. I am not going to waste my time with your unscholarly and childish arguments.

Deborah (Discerning the World)

Ryan

You said “Deborah – I made no claim about nephilim surviving the flood. If the Bible says, “there were nephilim in the land in these days and afterwards”, then that’s what it says. I’m not going to argue with God.”

I never said you made this claim, I asked you to answer questions based on what the bible says – the Word of God says this – and if the Bible says it then it is true. I’m not going to argue with God either but I surely do want act like an adult and make sure I understand what He is saying…something you don’t want to do. You on the other hand want to speak like a cartoon character. Bible says:

    Ephesians 4:14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;

You came here looking to change the meaning of God’s word, you will be held accountable by God for your strange teachings. Ask you wife if she would be able to give natural birth to a child that grows up to be 450 feet tall.

Bye Bye.

Ryan

[Deleted by DTW]

Robbie

Nephtali 1981 (for those who are familiar with his youtube videos… also fell for this doctrine. Sorry/
But then… Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;

Deborah (Discerning the World)

Robbie, please post that Youtube video link here… if ya don’t mind  :smile:

Robbie
Raphael

Utterly, amazing how you can read scripture and then pervert it completely. You take the words of Yeshua and then add your own assumptions when they are just not there. Yeshua said you err because you know not the scriptures or what will be at the resurrection. He very plainly said that at the resurrection they will be like the Angels in Heaven not marrying nor given in marriage. That because of this you infer that they are asexual and therefore cannot commit. It says they do not marry or are given in marriage that’s it, no more no less period. If they are indeed asexual as you say why do they appear as men. do not add or take away that is very clear in the scriptures you are definitely adding. Are you then saying that at the resurrection all women instantly become men ? You are not using reason, your own preconceived ideas are thrown into the mix and you are misleading people. I do know that Satan has great power and can and does pervert everything he can of The Most Highs creation, and will continue to do so until the wicked one appears and people will be fooled by lying signs and wonders. In time all will be revealed no need to help Ha Satan by sending wrong messages to the weak in faith.

Tom (Discerning the World)

Hi Raphael,

So, you are saying that the angels in heaven are not asexual and, therefore, can develop a whopping sexual desire for the opposite sex in heaven, but are not allowed to get married. It reminds me of this passage.

“Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils; Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron; Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth.” (1 Timothy 4:1-3).

Or are you suggesting that the angels in heaven do not marry but just live together without getting married, as humans are doing on earth these days? Are you a Roman Catholic? Me thinks you are the culprit who is perverting Scripture. Please take out the mote in your own eye before you try to take out the beam in our eyes.

Deborah (Discerning the World)

Dear Raphael

All I can do is  :laugh: at your comment. I’ll let Tom answer you, while we (all DTW readers) read your totally amusing comments.

I’m gonna get some popcorn  :pop: for this one.

Craig John

[DELETED by DTW – Sorry, we don’t endorse Seventh Day Adventist CULT teaching.]

jennifer

What happened to my question?

Tom Lessing (Discerning the World)

HI Jennifer,

When did you post your question? Do you mind posting it again?

jennifer

I got an email saying it has been posted but it hasn’t.

Jennifer

Which of the prophecy preachers on Jan Markel’s program believe in the nephilim heresy?

Tom Lessing (Discerning the World)

Hi Jennifer.

I must admit that I do not know. I will have to do some research before I can answer you. Do you have some links to help me? I know that many sincere Christians believe in the Nephilim doctrine, but whether she believes in it, I don’t know.

Hi Jennifer  :hi:

Can you list all the prophecy preachers on Jan Markel’s program, so we can go have a look? I do know that Jan Markel and Jacob Prasch are besties and she writes for Moriel Ministries as can be seen here: https://www.moriel.org/articles-new/2015-12-06-13-34-02/jan-markell.html I also know that years ago she was very quick to attack and vilify all those who speak out against Jacob Prasch.

jennifer

I don’t know about Jacob Prasch. I can’t remember listening to him. But two of the prophecy preachers who definitely believe in the Nephilim and have spoken on Markel’s Youtube channel are: Pastor Mark Hitchcock and Pastor Billy Crone. I don’t know if she believes in it too. I have subscribed to Pastor Jack Hibb’s, Pastor JD Farag, and Amir Tsafarti’s channels. So far I have not heard any nephilim nonsense from them. I would have unsubscribed if I did. But in a recent upload on Jack Hibb’s youtube channel he did mention the seed of the woman. I can’t remember which video because I’ve watched so many of his messages. I just wanted to be sure about him, JD Farag, and Amir Tsafarti. That’s why I searched for and found this article.

Deborah (Discerning the World)

Dear Jennifer

Thank you for your comment  :hi5: and thank you for letting us know to keep a look out regarding these guys.

You know many good pastors get caught up in false teaching (none of us are immune to deception) but that’s where the ‘however‘ part comes in. If a pastor is drawn into Nephilim teaching through ‘peer pastor pressure‘ to believe in this nonsense, I can see how easy it is to be caught up in the lies…but only for a short while, as the Holy Spirit will convict a person that it doesn’t make biblical sense; and just as I once fleetingly believed in Nephilim teaching, the Holy Spirit corrected me and showed me scripture to prove to me otherwise that Nephilim teaching is all about mankind sinning, not angles sinning with womankind producing giant offspring that have no snowballs chance of ever getting saved.

Robbie

Here is a short list of the Ghost Busters…

A major prophecy conference held in July 2016 in Colorado Springs – a popular location for New Age, esoteric, and occult events – featured a long list of speakers who are pushing the Nephilim agenda, including Tom Horn, Gary Stearman, L A Marzulli, Doc Marquis, Cris Putnam, Josh Peck, Michael Lake, Ken Johnson, Derek Gilbert, and Stan Deyo. Similar prophecy conferences in the past have included such well-known Nephilim aficionados as Chuck Missler, Russ Dizdar, Rob Skiba, Doug Hamp, and Michael Heiser.
Then of course there is the trash of Jacob Prasch…

Debbie, from my experience the past 4 years, this is a growing agenda.

“The Enemy hates the Word and is doing everything he can to pollute it, to shake our faith in it, to discredit it, and by various devious means to weaken our reliance upon it. One of his most successful and best known devices has been the augmentation of Scripture. This comprises, not just the inclusion of spurious works in the canon of Scripture, but the elevation of uninspired, theological writings to the point where they colour our understanding of Scripture and lead us astray. “

Catherine

Deborah (Discerning the World) wrote:

Hi Jennifer

Can you list all the prophecy preachers on Jan Markel’s program, so we can go have a look? I do know that Jan Markel and Jacob Prasch are besties and she writes for Moriel Ministries as can be seen here: https://www.moriel.org/articles-new/2015-12-06-13-34-02/jan-markell.html I also know that years ago she was very quick to attack and vilify all those who speak out against Jacob Prasch.

Catherine

Deborah (Discerning the World) wrote:

Hi Jennifer

Can you list all the prophecy preachers on Jan Markel’s program, so we can go have a look? I do know that Jan Markel and Jacob Prasch are besties and she writes for Moriel Ministries as can be seen here: https://www.moriel.org/articles-new/2015-12-06-13-34-02/jan-markell.html I also know that years ago she was very quick to attack and vilify all those who speak out against Jacob Prasch.

The quote below is lifted from Jan Markell’s ‘Understanding The Times’ newsletter of Nov Dec 2017
It doesn’t look like she and Jacob Prasch are ‘besties’.
https://olivetreeviews.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/02/97312-OT-Newsletter-Nov-Dec-2017-1.pdf
“In one of my newer DVDs, “How the
Blessed Hope Became the Blasted
Hope: The Attack on Bible Prophecy”,
I take a look at those who are coming
against the doctrine of the pre-Trib
Rapture. Joe Schimmel has made a
four-hour film suggesting the entire
doctrine is a scam perpetrated primarily
by John Nelson Darby. The film is
riddled with untruths and insults.
It features pit-bull theologian Jacob
Prasch who has spent the last year
attacking Pastor J.D. Farag and me,
suggesting we are so off-base we need
to step down from ministry. Prasch
calls his efforts a discernment ministry
but some of these folks contend
contentiously and seem to operate
more like the Pharisees of Jesus’ day.
At the root of Prasch’s agitation is his
hatred for our blessed hope, the preTrib Rapture.”

Thank you for all your work in putting together this website.  :hat:

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